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Typical! Lengthy trash on drug addicted Beatles but no real discussion of the guru Mahesh Yogi. More needs to be added regarding the TM movement and definitely the Maharishi Universities worldwide! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.39.64 ( talk) 03:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
There are rumours that the Maharishi had died on Jan. 12th, and the movement hasn't published it yet. Comment from insiders, please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karpada ( talk • contribs) 10:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Announced on www.maharishichannel.org, channel three, by Nader Raam. I guess that Veda commentary isn't going to get done. So much for perfect health.
Judyjoejoe (
talk) 23:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I am moving this material for discussion and a reference check since this is a biography of a living person and guidelines are strict as per additions. For discussion, WP:Weight might be considered.( olive ( talk) 23:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC))
Regardless of the underlying cause, Lennon remained bitter towards the Maharishi, penning the song "Sexy Sadie" about him (with the refrain "what have you done? You made a fool of everyone"). [1]
Biographies of living persons (BLPs) must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is "do no harm".
You're right . The line immediately following the new addition makes reference to "another rumour" I will remove that actually since its not accurate . The Lennon material is rather, controversy. I have to disagree though on adding Sexy Sadie. This is insulting to a spiritual leader and does refer to rumours that circulated on inappropriate behaviour ... all rumours proved false multiple times including in a public performance by Donovan, also present at the Ahsram, and who explained the attempt by press and others to draw the Beatles away from Rishikesh. I'm not sure how to deal with this. I believe also including this much material violates WP:Fringe and WP:Weight Best wishes.( olive ( talk) 21:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC))
The visibility and popularity of the organization can largely be attributed to the Beatles. In 1968, the band, with great publicity, began studying with the Maharishi at his Himalayan retreat, or ashram, in Rishikesh, in northern India. They went with their wives, the folk singer Donovan, the singer Mike Love, of the Beach Boys, the actress Mia Farrow and Ms. Farrow’s sister Prudence. They left in the wake of rumors of sexual improprieties by the Maharishi, an avowed celibate, though no sexual-misconduct suits were filed and some of the participants later denied that anything untoward had occurred.
When I look at the discussion in this section, I see one person offering multiple ways of getting attributed information in and two saying that under no circumstances should it be allowed. The reasons offered for insertion are that it is one of the most famous groups and persons in the world writing a critically important song to express his view, and the others say that's not important enough. Well, here's the acid test: How famous would the Marharishi have been without the Beatles? If his fame in the West derives somewhat from his association with the Beatles (and I would say it derives entirely; it was that connection that led to all the Dick Cavett show appearances, the Laugh-In stuff, and all the thousands of appearances he made 1970-74, and it was those that led to the success of his book, whatever its intrinsic values or whatever the zeitgeist of the West), then their opinions even without the song would be important information to the biography. So, if, as most believe, this association was the most famous episode, and if people followed the lives of the Beatles the way they would a soap opera character (and five times as closely as they now do the demise of Britney et al.), then John's disaffection was a famous episode. In fact, I remember it. I remember how the issue of the Maharishi became one of the John/Paul splits, how fans lined up between Paul & George for him or John against him. The controversy increased the stature of the figure. In fact, the Maharishi was one of the many blamed for "breaking up the Beatles."
So, should the statement be in? Yes. It's an important facet of the biography of the figure. It's not undue at all. It's also not going to poison or harm the figure in any way, were he alive, because, in fact, it actually ended up helping his profile and made him more famous. So, a neutral and factual statement of John's stated attitude is germane and hardly a sabotaging of the article. Geogre ( talk) 11:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
So far as any reference work is concerned, the person exists only as a public figure. Therefore, what is part of the shaping of the public figure is important, and what is not part of that is not. Therefore, if John's disaffection was part of increasing the figure's fame at a critical point, then it is "in." If John's disaffection led to increased discussion of the public figure's role, then it is "in." Whether John is telling the truth is not up to a secondary or tertiary source of information, and it is also not relevant to a discussion of the arc of a figure's career. It's quite easy to be neutral about the material, and Nandesuka was being fairly neutral.
A primary biography is out, but so is a hagiography. A reader is not looking, probably, for "why is this the greatest person, ever," but instead, "Why is everyone talking about him?" They can read the book TM, and it's a nice book with a large influence over popular culture and cultural history in the US, but part of what put the man in the position to be famous enough to convince masses of people to give the book a chance (and his was hardly the only meditation guide on the market at the time; I think Alan Watts's popularizing books on Zen were popular) was both the role with the Beatles and the controversy. I.e. the "he's a hypocrite/bad man/svengali" discussion was part of the fame/infamy that made everyone interested in what he had to say. We never report the truth: we report the truth as it appears through secondary sources. Geogre ( talk) 11:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
A lot of discussion here about the role of the Beatles in Maharishi's career in the west. So from the flip side, here's a fascinating article from the New York Times about the extraordinary influence Maharishi had on their creativity. [7] TimidGuy ( talk) 20:54, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Musician, September, 1992, p. 43 (the part in brackets appears that way in the magazine)
Harrison: "Yeah, I called it 'Sexie Sadie.' The title John had was not nice at all. At least he realized that. At least he realized that. Because there was nothing that ever happened except that there was a fella who was supposedly a friend of ours who stirred up and created this big fantasy. [Note: Beatles pal Magic Alex Mardas told John and George that the Maharishi might have made sexual advances to one of the woman pilgrims. This led to a confrontation between Lennon and the Maharishi and Lennon's returning to England.] There was never anything that took place." TimidGuy ( talk) 17:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
By the way, it seems like we need to avoid conflating the Farrow thing with the Mardas story. No source that I looked at said that Mardas spread rumors regarding Farrow. They related to someone else. And all of the sources except for one attribute the departure of John and George to the latter. TimidGuy ( talk) 17:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
There apparently were rumors about Farrow, though sources say little about that. Rather, the sources focus on a story that came from Mardas about Maharishi being sexually involved with an American nurse who was on the course. This was the precipitating event that led to the departure of John and George. (Ringo and Paul had left much earlier.)
Who were the parties to what you characterize as a "bitter dispute"? TimidGuy ( talk) 12:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I see the media are starting to pick the inaccuracies in this article. [8] Cynthia's version published today pretty closely follows what she says in her book [9]. TimidGuy ( talk) 16:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Nandesuaka. I'm not talking about what inspired John to write Sexy Sadie. Rather, I'm talking about first-hand sources which describe the reason for their departure and the fact that Mardas was the source for the story that precipitated their departure -- a story unrelated to Mia Farrow. I've not seen any first-hand accounts that say that Mardas spread rumors about Mia Farrow, as this article says. Hope you don't mind discussing this. Not trying to create conflict here. TimidGuy ( talk) 17:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Nandesuka. And by the way, thanks for your earlier revert of the info about Lennon's carving of the words to the song. I agree that it was excessive detail, and I see that the same editor put it in the Sexy Sadie article, which is the place for it. In Cynthia's autobiography she also says a young American nurse. All of the accounts are quite uniform -- John, George, Cynthia, Pattii Boyd -- regarding what happened. Mardas told John and George that Maharishi was sexually involved with this woman who was on the course; they argued all night whether it could be true, with George not ready to believe it. Finally, George acquiesced. That morning they went in to confront Maharishi. John told him they were leaving. Maharishi asked why. John said something like, "You're the cosmic master who knows everything, you know why." Then they left. That's why I wondered about whether we should say "bitter dispute." Since it wasn't much of a dispute, and Maharishi had no idea why they were leaving (according to the first-hand accounts). Both Patti and Cynthia say there were surprised that John and George believed Mardas, and later Paul and George said they thought that Mardas made the whole thing up.
Anyway, not sure what I'm getting at, other than maybe we need to rewrite this a bit. : ) I'll give it some thought. TimidGuy ( talk) 21:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
What I'd like us to consider is moving the Sexy Sadie material to the following paragraph which talks about specific songs related to their experience in India. That will make it easier to address the issues we discussed in the first paragraph (that Mardas wasn't responsible for rumors regarding Farrow and that most of the first-hand accounts, including an interview with John in the Beatles Anthology, attribute their departure to the Mardas story). We can then, in the following paragraph, still attribute the inspiration for Sexy Sadie to both the Mardas story and Farrow. TimidGuy ( talk) 16:55, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Opening para:
Infobox:
Are we saying he was definitely born on 12 January, but the year is uncertain? Or are we saying his exact day of birth is unknown, not even whether it's 12 January or some other day of the year? This needs to be clarified. -- JackofOz ( talk) 01:03, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
This article seems like an advertisment rather than a NPOV encyclopedia article. I didn't see any serious critisism. Is it that there was never any major critisim or negetive aspect to the life of this person? Farmanesh ( talk) 14:53, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
JAI KARUNAMAYI!, YESTERDAY I WAS RECORDING AMMA [Sri Karunamayi's] TALK ON SARASWATHI DEVI. ALL OF A SUDDEN AMMA [Sri Karunamayi] STOPPED HER TALK AND TOLD ME MAHARISHI ATTAINED MAHA SAMADHI. I WAS SHOCKED. AMMA CLOSED HER EYES FOR 10/12 MIN. SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN COMMUNICATING WITH HIS SOUL.
I OFFER MY RESPECTS AND PRAYERS FOR THIS GREAT ATMAN. SWAMIJI. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.178.127.50 ( talk) 01:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Although those who admired him probably think of him with devotion or fondness (I respect the man) it is impossible to have a balanced view unless the full spectrum of his life is shared. There has been criticism of the wealth of the movement, their sometimes extravagant and contradictory plans, there is that stone to death issue with the Beatles...I am sure mention of the criticism on his approach and life can be included with elegance and respect. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Diabulos (
talk •
contribs) 19:34, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Nandesuka: Greetings from a native speaking German from Germany. The german text goes: "Er hat sich um 19 Uhr in die perfekte Yoga-Position begeben und ist friedlich eingeschlafen." In the context of dying the meaning of "ist eingeschlafen" is ALWAYS "he died", similar to "ist entschlafen". -- Josha52 ( talk) 19:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Nadesuka: Sorry, in this regard to simplify means to hide an important information. Could we find an expression which makes it more clear that he passed consciously? Your English is better ... -- Josha52 ( talk) 19:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Please google "Mia Farrow Maharishi Allahabad". Mia Ferrow visited the funeral. This should be mentioned since this circumstance sheds light on those rumors of the sixties. --
Josha52 (
talk) 19:44, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, no new facts: error of mine. thought that Mia attended the funeral, but cant find source. -- Josha52 ( talk) 19:55, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Between 1988 and 1990 various magazine articles estimates his net worth at $3.5 billion. I can find no more recent guess, and apparently someone has gone through a great deal of trouble to conceal his income, and the raw extent of it. Can anyone find any sources for this data? -- 70.131.112.41 ( talk) 15:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
We do not know what exactly MMY's ties with MUM are. I wish someone would work up a some information concerning how this supposed guru without pockets managed to own quite a compound in the Netherlands, how the TMO has 225 million dollars worth of land (according to the NYTs) in the US, and the involvement of his families in India in organizations founded in his name. According to form 990s filed with the IRS, significant sums go from the US organizations to India. But maybe this is more appropriate for the TM page. Judyjoejoe ( talk) 02:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I would also like to see someone work up information concerning MMYs method of governance and the secrecy concerning him and his health. Before he died he did not appear in public for years. He even spoke to aids through close circuit television. According to Deepak Chopra's claimed first hand account(see the Huffington Post), MMY thought in the early 1990s he had been poisoned, he almost died, and was treated for his illnesses in England, but kept all this secret. This is important information about the man because he and the TMO promotes Vedic medicine rather than western medicine but it is clear that MMY availed himself of western medical systems quite frequently but went out of his way to keep it secret. According to Chopra he was diabetic, suffered from pancreatic inflammation, and had a heart attack at some point Judyjoejoe ( talk) 02:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Seems like we need to do a bit of cleanup. Following Maharishi's death a lot of material got added, and possibly not all relevant in the long run. Maybe details regarding his passing, such as his posture at the time of death, should be deleted. And someone just added duplicate info about "Across the Universe. Olive, are you here? You've always done a good job cleaning things up. Can you look at this? TimidGuy ( talk) 20:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Excellent work! I tried to fix the errors in the Beatles section -- the fact that all the first-hand sources except Wenner attribute their departure to the American nurse story said to have been originated by Mardas. And made clear that Mardas wasn't related to the Farrow story. I've never seen a single source say that he spread rumors regarding Farrow. It's odd how frequently the media reported that in the obituaries. I hope they didn't get that from this article. We need to still fix the Sexy Sadie sentence, since it makes Lennon's song the main point. Rather, their departure itself should be the main point in the syntax -- because historically the fact of their departure is more significant than the song. TimidGuy ( talk) 16:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
These pictures are now available: [10], [11], [12]. -- Josha52 ( talk) 10:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Wow, Nandesuka. That was a pretty big rollback. I did question some of the material, but some of it was perfectly well sourced, such as the citation to the New York Times. I can't understand such a blanket revert, especially without discussion. TimidGuy ( talk) 16:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Nandesuka. Sorry, I thought I remembered that we had consensus to change this when you noted that Spitz said "an American nurse." I've' examined many sources, and they all say the same thing and tell a very specific and detailed story -- that Mardas relayed a story about this nurse. and that this was the precipitating incident. The sources include the first-hand accounts by Cnythia Lennon and Patti Boyd who were at the meeting along with John and George in which they had intended to confront Maharishi with the story. If I remember correctly, even John himself says it differently in the Beatles anthology. I think this quote in Wenner is anomalous. Not sure what to do. The problem is that your revised version seems to make Lennon's quote the default. Seems like that shouldn't trump the other sources. In the Beatles anthology George explicitly says, "It wasn't Miai Farrow, it was someone else." Another way that Lennon's quote is anomalous is that it suggests that there were additional rumors. But in dozens of sources, or perhaps hundreds or thousands, if you count the recent space of obituaries, there is no mention of any rumors beyond the America nurse and Mia Farrow. Eager to know what you think. TimidGuy ( talk) 08:46, 10 March 2008 (UTC) Also, in the Beatles anthology George gives a different reason for his departure: that he had always only planned to stay for the first portion of the course in Rishikesh and had planned to leave when the venue moved north. So Wenner really only explains John's departure (since Paul and Ringo had left much earlier). Anyway, I guess it needs still more tweaking. What to do? Seems endless, especially as there are so many different accounts. TimidGuy ( talk) 10:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for adding this detail and citing it. But I'm afraid that this large section makes the article sound too promotional. Plus, it may be a violation of undue weight to allot so much space to this. If this is to be in keeping with policy and the scope of the other sections of the article, it seems like it could be a few sentences. What do others think? TimidGuy ( talk) 15:01, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
We could maybe retain some of the info within the references while greatly reducing what appears in the article itself. TimidGuy ( talk) 19:06, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
The issue of undue weight is that this long section skews the balance of the article. Also, all of the material, except the final citation, is sourced to self-published material. According to WP:SPS, such material can't be used if it's unduly self-serving. Also, it really shouldn't be used to make claims. In this case, the claimed recognition is something that ideally would be independently reported. In the U.S. it's very common for public relations entities to give these sorts of recognitions, and they may not always be meaningful. That's something that would be filtered by an independent source. TimidGuy ( talk) 16:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
References
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There is no real section for this information right now and as well these additions would need sources. This article has been the scene of highly contentious discussions so all editors should discuss any such major addition, especially since it would require a new section.( olive ( talk) 16:29, 20 April 2008 (UTC))
There are some discrepancies in the addition to the Beatles on, Lennon's admission of a mistake. For example, BBC is said to have printed the admission, and of course BBC is not a newspaper... My thought is that it would be very nice to link this to a source . This article and section are highly contentious so this kind of addition should be more clearly sourced for the reader. I do correct/copy edit the material, but still a source a reader can get to would be best.( olive ( talk) 03:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC))
Posting here material that was recently added and removed from the article so that the person who contributed it can present a rationale for including this or something similar:
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Knowledge is structured in consciousness. [1] ‘Fruit of all knowledge’ is the ability to live mistake-free life in higher states of consciousness, daily life in full accordance with all the Laws of Nature, with the spontaneous ability to do everything right and achieve anything. In its “self-referral” state, or transcendental state, consciousness knows itself alone…[it] is the unified state of knower, knowing and known. The whole population of the world is violating Natural Law, and consequently…human life everywhere is shrouded with problems…The only way out…is that…one should…develop higher states of consciousness and thereby live enlightenment and fulfilment in daily life – Heaven on Earth. Those who practice Transcendental Meditation have the experience that Transcendental Consciousness is unbounded awareness – it is pure wakefulness; it it fully awake within itself; it knows only itself and nothing else. The seven states of consciousness are Waking, Dreaming, Sleeping, Transcendental Consciousness, Cosmic Consciousness, God Consciousness and Unity Consciousness. Now millions of Vedic Scientists practising…Transcendental Meditation…are busy creating purity in world consciousness, the fertile ground for Heaven on Earth. …in the language of religion, act in accordance with the ‘Will of God’; or, in the language of science, live life according to Natural Law… …research in consciousness is the journey of the attention through sequentially finer levels of the thought process, until the awareness fathoms the source of thought… Enlightened people of every religion rightfully see the light of their own Lord everywhere, and on that level the Light of God prevails; appreciation and glorification of the reality of their own religion prevails…the Light of God is the goal of every religion. This experience of self-referral unbounded awareness enlivens the holistic level of functioning of the whole brain physiology… …this one simple technology is able to produce such an extraordinary range of benefits because it enlivens the most basic level of existence… The Maharishi Effect…global research demonstrated…[that] the square root of one per cent of a population practising the…TM-Sidhi Programme…together in one place is sufficient to neutralize negative tendencies and promote positive trends throughout the whole population… |
On a user Talk page this was the state rationale for inclusion: "One of the things that makes Maharishi interesting is his contribution to the discussion of consciousness. The extracts I added are headlines for topics he dealt with in hundreds of hours of lectures and a number of books. There is a large community (and not just Maharishi's mob) that is expert in such matters, and I feel the article is unbalanced if it doesn't give a brief pointer to his thinking." TimidGuy ( talk) 11:36, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Edit conflict
Hi TG & Olive. Have been looking harder at the material, and I think I see a framework for the presentation. I hope this link Talk:Maharishi Mahesh Yogi/Consciousness will create a subpage where we can work on drafts (guidelines seem to indicate this is the right thing to do), and I've written there about the framework. Ber ( talk) 02:56, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi TG, Olive & Somanatha,
I've put a draft on the Maharishi Consciousness Talk page, for your comment. Best wishes Ber ( talk) 06:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi TG. Perhaps I can see how to approach a rewrite of the type you suggest - I'll think about it. About whether the words are Maharishi's: I think it's clear that some sections in MVUI have been written by others, but I tried to select excerpts that had the flavor of his language. There is a problem with discussing or paraphrasing, in that I couldn't guarantee that I had full understanding of the teaching. I find this exercise has sharpened my appreciation of it, as if my camera had been a bit out of focus. But that's a long way from being an authority. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ber.maguire ( talk • contribs) 07:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
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Teaching on consciousnessMaharishi’s teaching on consciousness can be seen in his 1994 book Maharishi Vedic University – Introduction [2] to unfold at three levels: individual, collective and fundamental: With reference to waking, dreaming and sleeping, he defines a fourth state: “Those who practise Transcendental Meditation have the experience that Transcendental Consciousness is unbounded awareness – it is pure wakefulness; it is fully awake within itself; it knows only itself and nothing else. This experience of self-referral unbounded awareness enlivens the holistic level of functioning of the whole brain physiology. [3] There are important practical implications: the whole population of the world is violating Natural Law, and consequently human life everywhere is shrouded with problems. The only way out is that one should develop higher states of consciousness and thereby live enlightenment and fulfilment in daily life – Heaven on Earth. [4] Maharishi says: “'Fruit of all knowledge' [means] the ability to live mistake-free life in higher states of consciousness, daily life in full accordance with all the Laws of Nature, with the spontaneous ability to do everything right and achieve anything.” [5] Moreover, the practice of a few individuals can have a direct effect on the environment: “Coherence in collective consciousness and positivity and harmony in national consciousness is produced by the group practice of Maharishi’s Transcendental Meditation.” [6] And, at the fundamental level: “The infinite diversity and dynamism of the creation is just the expression of the eternally silent, self-referral, self-sufficient, unbounded field of consciousness. All life emerges from and is sustained in consciousness. The whole universe is the expression of consciousness; the reality of the universe is one unbounded ocean of consciousness in motion.” [7] On the basis of this unfolding of the concept of consciousness, Maharishi declares: “The truth is that the Light of God is eternally the same, and it is available to the enlightened in his own self-referral consciousness, which is transcendental reality and is actually never influenced by the language in which it is expressed. In the language of religion, act in accordance with the Will of God; or, in the language of science, live life according to Natural Law.” [8] Therefore the Light of God is the goal of every religion. [9] |
Hi Ber. In no way does discussing this material have to do with whatever experience you may have. This has been a highly contentious article with lots of fierce arguments and discussions . The Wikipedia way of dealing with much of this kind of disagreement is to have a consensus or agreement between editors . Adding any material to this article will probably be most easily done if editors before it is added to the article agree on the material. This helps to ensure that we all scrutinize the material for Wikipedia policy/guideline infractions, so that other editors coming in are dealing with something that is at the least compliant . This is just a standard way of proceeding. As well since we are dealing with teaching /philosophies that can be open to interpretation, we, should agree on what that interpretation is to prevent later problems. Thanks very much for you work, and lets keep discussing...:0)( olive ( talk) 14:11, 4 September 2008 (UTC))
List of fundamental teachings: Add comment, if needed, underneath each point
Comments:
Comments:
I am not an editor of this article, but while reading here, I was dismayed to see that the article reads Maharishi as if Maharishi was part of his name. I have always understood that the term "Maharishi" is an honorific title similar to "father," "reverend" or "rabbi." There are many maharishis, just like there are many priests. In light of this, some parts of this article are grammatically misleading, drawing readers to conclude that "Maharishi" is a name. I suggest revising the appropriate parts of the article with "the Maharishi," in the same way as one might refer to a professor (PhD.) as "the professor," or "professor."
So, for example: "Professor went to the university" isn't correct. "The professor went to the university," or "Professor Doe went to the university" are correct. Professor isn't the man's name. Maharishi wasn't Mahesh's name. And Yogi wasn't his name either, that's another identifying term?
If I'm wrong please ignore this. If I'm right, and you are one of the regular editors here, please try to fix it. I'd do it myself, but I personally feel that it would be bad Wikipedia etiquette to swoop in and edit an article that I'm not tuned into. Thanks. VictorC ( talk) 15:49, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
This is a change across multiple articles so I would not want to make this change without discussion and clear agreement from the other editors. At one point I said I wasn't attached one way or the other, but on more thought I think that how MMY is named in the majority of literature and Media is an important consideration. I don't see that the WP:MOS really deals with this situation. Any way,let's keep talking.( olive ( talk) 16:24, 3 April 2009 (UTC))
According to this citation the Maharishi lived in the Netherlands since 1990. That seems enough to show that he was Dutch of Indian descent, being that his residential status was Dutch for more than fifteen years. Clearly he had adopted the Netherlands as his home. Why was the category removed? Werdnawerdna removed it with the notation: "I've never seen any evidence that he was, in any sense, Dutch." Obviously - I've never seen a lot of things, that doesn't make them false. I've never seen any snow in Antarctica, but it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not there is or isn't any snow there. All that it means is that I have yet to travel to Antarctica. Is this possibly an instance of Werdnawerdna simply not having looked for the reason the category had been entered here? If so, Werdnawerdna, will you please revert? VictorC ( talk) 20:34, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Edit conflict...add to comment of Andries above:
No-one is disputing that Maharishi spent his latter years in The Netherlands. However, mere residence in a country, regardless of the duration, does not give said person the national identity of the country of residence. He made The Netherlands his country of residence, but he was a foreigner in every sense of the word. He was not Dutch by descent, birth, upbringing, culture or nationality. That is what I meant in my edit summary; all the evidence proves that he was Indian; he did not have any other national identity. He is correctly regarded as Indian; all the evidence shows that. This article and talk page are the only places I have ever seen to claim he was Dutch. If someone is claiming he was Dutch (or anything other than Indian for that matter), then they need to provide evidence to back up that strange claim. The burden of proof rests with them, not the rest of the world, who rightly regard him as Indian. I, along with millions of other people, have seen a great deal of snow in Antarctica, be it on documentaries rather than in person. Thousands of people have actually been to Antarctica, and have seen the huge amounts of snow there for themselves. It is fact that there is always tons of snow in the world's coldest continent; it is proven, undisputed fact. I do not know why the Dutch category was applied to this article, but I know it was incorrectly added, which is why I removed it. Ayaan Hirsi Ali qualifies as Dutch in so much as she is a Dutch citizen; she has ceased to be a Muslim and lives a Western lifestyle; she has become 'less foreign' (that said, she is still an immigrant and is still of foreign origin). Maharishi never Westernised (nor did he try to or want to). Therefore he remained Indian; he did not, at any point, become Dutch. Werdnawerdna ( talk) 11:07, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
A discussion of the pronunciation on this would probably center on Sanskrit pronunciations, of which I am not an expert. However linguistically speaking, the "v" on the end of Dev has a slightly "open" sound rather than a completely "stopped" stopped sound as a "d" would have, for example, giving a short "a" sound to the word. The word Dev can also spelled Deva in English. As well, inclusion of why Lennon preferred one pronunciation over another, or one spelling over another should probably be sourced. At best the comment is trivia, and personally I would not include it.( olive ( talk) 16:36, 1 January 2009 (UTC))
Since there was talk on Talk:Maharishi Vedic Science about merging that article here, I went ahead and added mergeto and mergefrom tags, which point to this page for discussion. Please comment if you care one way or the other. Dicklyon ( talk) 04:00, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Pdquesnell ( talk) 20:02, 12 May 2009 (UTC) I think it would be best to NOT merge this (hopefully) biographical article with the any article about the teachings and writings of Maharishi. I would like to remove the "mergeto" tags.
The recent additions from two anonymous accounts in the Beatles section of the article don't seem particularly encyclopedic, particularly the last addition. (which also needs a cite) It is only tangentially related to the article - it actually seems to have more to do with David Lynch Foundation than with this article. Wikipedia isn't a newspaper, and extensive quotes from books and articles are largely to be avoided in Wikipedia articles. I'm not going to delete this stuff - though I'd be tempted to in a less contentious article. I'll leave that to the other editors to act on - but I think it should either be deleted or extensively rewritten. Fladrif ( talk) 20:36, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
The "References" section should only contain sources that are used in this article, and the "External links" section should contain only items about or by the subject. Several items in these sections appear to be more related to TM in general, or are simply "Further reading" and should be moved into a different section. Will Beback talk 21:11, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
It seems the references are all listed under "Notes" and the Ref section is more suggested reading. Does this need to be rectified? -- Kbob ( talk) 21:34, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
I have today removed the following links:
I have also removed these links:
If any editors disagree with these removals, we can discuss and add back into the article if there is a valid reason to include them. Generally the guidelines for Wiki WP:EL are that external links should be: minimal, meritable, relevant, unique and should contain info that cannot be integrated into the article. The following types of links are forbidden: MySpace, Facebook, Tweeter, promo web sites, personal blogs, personal web sites, biased web sites and a long lists of links in general are forbidden.-- Kbob ( talk) 19:57, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I checked the rules at the
WP:EL page and I agree with you--
Luke Warmater101 (
talk) 21:22, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
The following links (below) I have left in the Suggested Reading section, for now, but I question their validity, since they do not report directly on aspects of Maharishi's life but instead talk about places or institutions with his name. What do others think?
References http://www.tm.org/learn/where/index.html --This seems like an invite to me, we already have an official link to the TM/Maharshi page, I suggest we remove this link.
Deans, Ashley, PhD (2005) A Record of Excellence: The Remarkable Success of Maharishi School of the Age of Enlightenment--To the best of my knowledge this book does not discuss the life of Maharishi, I suggest we remove it.
"THE TM CRAZE: 40 Minutes to Bliss". Time (magazine). October 13, 1975. -- http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,947229,00.html. Retrieved on 2004-04-25. --One of hundreds of articles on TM does it have special relevance?
Lee, Gary (November 12, 2006). "Om on the Grange". The Washington Post. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/10/AR2006111000463.html?nav=emailpage. Retrieved on 2004-04-25.--Article on MUM
Lydersen, Kari (August 9, 2004). "Iowa Town Booms On Eastern Ways". The Washington Post. http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A50643-2004Aug8?language=printer. Retrieved on 2004-04-25.---Article on Vedic City
I think they should all be removed, and perhaps re-posted on a different site, for instance one on Transcendental Meditation, since they seem to be mostly about that. You might consider leaving the "Om on the grange" article, but even that is pretty marginal to this topic.-- Luke Warmater101 ( talk) 22:31, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
In the article it says that "Allahabad University list of distinguished alumni calls him "M.C. Shrivastava" but that "Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was born Mahesh Prasad Varma". Why would he be called "M.C. Shrivastava" by Allahabad University? Is there any connection between the 2 versions of the name? Bigweeboy 20:17, April 25, 2009
Another editor has added a section called documentary film. It contained several promotional sentences and links which I have removed. I have left behind a few sentences. What do other editors think? is it notable? Do we have sources for this? Or should we delete it? -- Kbob ( talk) 17:07, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
In 1968, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi commissioned Alan Waite to create a documentary about Transcendental Meditation. It is entitled “Sage For A New Generation.” It won 'Best Documentary' in the 1969 Hollywood Film Festival, being noted for its 'patchwork quilt' style.
This addition is not so much about Maharishi but about the film and Alan Waite, and as such in my mind should probably not be mentioned in this article . Maharishi created numerous videos and there are numerous films about him. This one seems no more notable than any of those.
As well I am somewhat concerned about the neutrality of the user who originally added the material (User name:Alan Waite). Further there is now no reference althothe original reference was an advertising site for the video. ( olive ( talk) 17:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC))
I removed this which is an excuse to provide us with yet another link to Paul Mason and his books for sale. Links to Paul Mason's books have been posted on several articles in Wiki which have recently been uncovered by me and removed. * Allen Ginsberg interviews the Maharishi -- Kbob ( talk) 02:03, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
I would like to suggest that we change the "book section" from "Suggested readings" to "Further Readings", since we are not expressing any opinion about the listed texts, the term "further" strikes me as more appropriate than "suggested". How does everyone feel about that? -- Luke Warmwater101 ( talk) 16:48, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
I merged Maharishi Vedic Science into Maharishi Mahesh Yogi/Ideas [13] some time ago based on consensus. Today, I deleted the original page Maharishi Vedic Science and added a redirect to this page so that merge should now be complete.( olive ( talk) 17:16, 21 May 2009 (UTC))
I saw several ads for the TM movement clearly implying that you could learn to levitate off the ground after you paid for their "special classes". They called it yogic flying. Later they seemed to back away from these claims, saying it is possible but that they just currently attempt doing it as another meditation technique (essentially jumping around like frogs). Ykral ( talk) 07:12, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Now that I look more closely, I see that the Coplin source is a doctoral dissertation. [14] I'm not sure were Wikipedia is on using those as sources. But we should certainly identify it as a dissertation in the footnote and perhaps even in the text. Maybe it'd be better to write, According to a doctoral dissertation by Maharishi student Jay Randolph Coplin... Is the dissertation cited in any other scholarly sources? Will Beback talk 23:08, 8 July 2009 (UTC)]
Since you pointed out yourself that the information in the book Beacon Light was published by the organizer of the conference I am puzzled as to why you are adding information you know to be inaccurate, that is, that Maharishi published the book... even if the incorrect information is sourced, and during a somewhat heated discussion on that same source after an RS/N... Further I note that while the content is under discussion in one article and you are engaged in an edit war there you add text from that same source to another article. [15] while adding inaccurate content here. Concerned and puzzled.( olive ( talk) 17:40, 25 August 2009 (UTC))
These were the people who let Maharishi stay in their home when he first came to America. A book called "Hermit in the House" [16] was written by Mrs Olsen about the time Maharishi lived with them. -- BwB ( talk) 15:54, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I am adding information directly from the source, Beacon Light to clarify as per WP:NOR. the fact that TM is not mentioned in the book is noteworthy given the contention surrounding the material and discussion. I'm not positive it doesn't border on OR, however.( olive ( talk) 17:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC))
Having just read thru the article again today, I feel that the Beatles Section is too long relative to the size of the article. Yes, the Beatles had a large impact because of the the amount of press it generated, but relative to a 50 year career, and the larger influence MMY had on the world, the Beatles phase was small. We could either try to reduce and summarize the Beatles section, or we can expand the other sections, or add new material. What do others think? -- BwB ( talk) 18:42, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Since I have had no comments on this, I will start to edit the section to make it shorter. -- BwB ( talk) 21:10, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes, the section is abit long. It might be OK to condense, keeping in mind that the media, for better or for worse, always associates The Beatles with Maharishi.-- — Kbob • Talk • 21:41, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
I have reworked this section. You can find the proposed version in a sand-box here [17]. I feel it could even be shorted and would appreciate other editors feedback before making the changes to the mail article. Many thanks. -- BwB ( talk) 21:05, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I have moved the version I created in my sandbox on 28 Oct to the main page. -- BwB ( talk) 19:50, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
Good work on the Beatles section, Kbobb. I appreciate your efforts. I just reworded a couple of the sentences that seemed a little awkward. -- BwB ( talk) 21:08, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
The sources in the section are a little weak. If anyone can find stronger sources that would be a good thing.-- — Kbob • Talk • 22:04, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
... but, the reasons cited in your edit summaries are the funniest things I've read in a week. Thanks for the amusement, but let's get serious (notwithstanding that we're dealing with the subject matter of humorous parodies of someone universally called "The Giggling Guru") If you serious think that you're correcting a "POV" issue or addressing OR, I suggest that you reread those sections of Wikipedia, because you're not. When you cite four examples of something (and I could cite plenty more...including Maharishi Yogurt, Harvey Kurtzman's having him break his vows of celibacy for Little Annie Fanny, or the Maharishi and the Beatles joining in lofting Alfred E. Neuman on their shoulders and showering him with rose petals it's not an expression of POV nor original research to say that he's been repeatedly parodied in popular culture. Thus endeth the lesson. Fladrif ( talk) 21:59, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
The article quotes Maharishi as saying he had completed his "designed" duty to Guru Dev. I wondered if that was the right word or if it was supposed to be "designated." On this discussion page (for Jan 12, 2008) the same quote uses the word "designated" instead of "designed." I'm wondering which word is correct. It is only one word, but that may have been his last public statement. Besides, he was always so articulate, I think we should quote him correctly. -- Little Flower Eagle ( talk) 20:33, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
This sentence has recently been inserted into the article.
Did Leon McClaren have some notable affiliation with the Maharishi's life? During the Maharishi's several world tours he met many successful people and government leaders including The Beatles, Deepak Chopra, Donovan, Merv Griffin, Doug Henning, Clint Eastwood, Mary Tyler Moore, Burt Reynolds to just name a few off the top of my head. Should we have a sentence for each of these telling where they met the Maharishi and what they went on to do? If not, then I suggest consider removing the sentence on Leon McClaren.The Maharishi's European tours included a visit to London, where he met Leon MacLaren, who then introduced meditation and Advaita Vedanta to the School of Economic Science (SES).-- — Kbob • Talk • 02:27, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
In checking the ref for this, "and began publicly teaching what he states is a traditional meditation technique that he learned from his master, which he called Transcendental Deep Meditation and later renamed Transcendental Meditation", the page referenced, Pg. 25, is not available for viewing. Does someone have this source so we can check this for accuracy.
Russell, Peter, The T.M. Technique: An Introduction to Transcendental Meditation and the Teachings of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Routledge (1977) ISBN 0710085397, 9780710085399 p. 25
This content was removed and replaced with verifiable text from the LA Times:
We suddenly have a David Lynch section in this article. Here's some of the material in it:
That material does not seem to concern Maharishi Mahesh Yogi directly. It would be better in David Lynch or David Lynch Foundation. Will Beback talk 05:41, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
I have removed the above sentence as I can find no citation for it and it has been tagged for some time. If someone else can find a source we can add it back into the article.-- — Kbob • Talk • 12:25, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Yes Will, my crystal ball is working well thank you! :-) We could also add these to the article. [19] [20] [21]-- — Kbob • Talk • 00:25, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
An editor has appropriately removed the above quote from the lead per WP:LEAD. I am just parking it here in case it is thought to be useful in some other location in the article.-- — Kbob • Talk • 16:22, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
See Maharishi_Mahesh_Yogi#Death, where the quote is still featured in full. -- dab (𒁳) 11:30, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Every mainstream news source in English which addresses the question says that MMY died in his sleep, usually attributing the information to his spokesman, Bob Roth.
I haven't found a single mainstream news source in English reporting that he died while alert and in "perfect yoga posture". Why is this article relying upon an article in German, the translation of which is apparently in dispute (see discussions above) in preference to these English sources? See also WP:NONENG. If this extraordinary claim is to be used here, shouldn't it it should identify the person making it: Felix Kägi, a/k/a "His Highness Raja Felix of Switzerland"? Just asking. Fladrif ( talk) 15:23, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
I have looked through mainstream media sources and I have to agree that they say that Maharishi died in his sleep. However, several less mainstream sources do say Maharishi was alert and in yoga posture when he passed, see for instance http://www.4to40.com/legends/index.asp?id=1371 "On February 5th, the Maharishi passed away, alert, in yoga posture." I am not sure this would be enough, though. Just wondering. -- Luke Warmater101 ( talk) 19:59, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Pardon my ignorance - I probably know less about this topic than anyone editing here. Was TM created/discovered/developed by MMY, or was it a traditional meditation technique that he learned from Swami Brahmananda Saraswati and gave a new name? The word "western" was just added and then stricken from the intro, so I'm not sure whether this form of meditation ever existed in India prior to 1955. Will Beback talk 22:14, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Why was all references to the song "Sexy Sadie" removed from the article? I happened as part of a major rewrite of that section, which was posted with this edit summary:
But I don't see any discussion in 2009. The 2008 discussion brought in outside editors who said it's important. I searched around and found the text had been drafted in User:Bigweeboy/Sandbox by only one editor, and no other pages link there so it seems like no one else could have known about it. It appears that a significant amount of relevant, sourced material was deleted in the process. Can anyone explain what the process was for this rewrite? Will Beback talk 09:21, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
So there was an opportunity for others to participate. -- BwB ( talk) 12:44, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Do what you will, but this editor followed correct procedures in rewriting and readding the rewritten content. I doubt most other editors know about it. You might give others a chance to respond if that is truly a concern. I don't see a concern with BWB's rewrite. Consensus is changeable of course, but I won't discuss this change further unless there is considerable concern from a majority of editors.( olive ( talk) 20:36, 14 January 2010 (UTC))
21:06, November 3, 2009 [23] 606 words | 19:36, January 14, 2010 [24] 407 words |
---|---|
The Beatles met Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in August 1967, studying with him in
Bangor, Wales, and in early 1968, attended a TM teacher-training course in
Rishikesh, India. (Much of their "
White Album" was written during their stay in Rishikesh.) While Starr and McCartney left the Maharishi's camp for personal reasons, Lennon and Harrison departed after hearing a story that he had made sexual advances on
Mia Farrow or other course participants.
[27]
John Lennon wrote the song "
Sexy Sadie" ("what have you done? You made a fool of everyone") as he was leaving, the lyrics referring to the Maharishi.
[28]
"Magic" Alex Mardas had relayed the story to John and George, who felt betrayed by the Maharishi. [29] John Lennon would never again see Maharishi in person, but would phone him years later to apologize for his youthful mishap of publicly accusing Maharishi of improprieties—accusations that had nothing to do with Maharishi, but, seemingly, everything to do with John’s personal temperament (it was "an error in judgment," Lennon later commented). [30] An interview with Yoko Ono in Rolling Stone magazine, in March, 2008 reads, "If Lennon were alive today, says Yoko Ono, he probably would have reconciled with (Maharishi). "John would have been the first one now, if he had been here, to recognize and acknowledge what Maharishi has done for the world and appreciate it," she says." [31] Cynthia Lennon believed that Mardas invented a story about sexual impropriety to undermine the Maharishi's influence on the Beatles. [32] [33] George Harrison, years later, commented on the contretemps, saying, "Now, historically, there's the story that something went on that shouldn't have done—but nothing did." [34] Paul McCartney, in his biography, likewise says that he does not believe the allegations and also attributes them to Mardas. [35] Farrow's autobiography is ambiguous about the incident: she describes "panicking" and fleeing after the Maharishi put his arms around her in a dark cave, immediately after a private meditation session, and that "at my level of consciousness, if Jesus Christ Himself had embraced me, I would have misinterpreted it." [36] After the Maharishi's death on February 5, 2008, Sir Paul McCartney released a statement saying, "Whilst I am deeply saddened by his passing, my memories of him will only be joyful ones. He was a great man who worked tirelessly for the people of the world...." Ringo Starr released a statement saying, "One of the wise men I met in my life was the Maharishi. I always was impressed by his joy and I truly believe he knows where he is going." [37] On 5 February 2008, the Beatles' " Across the Universe" was beamed across the universe by NASA to celebrate the 40th anniversary of the song, the 45th anniversary of the DSN ( Deep Space Network), and the 50th anniversary of NASA. A part of the lyric are the words 'Jai Guru Deva' - a Sanskrit phrase that the Maharishi had taught the Beatles, which means "Hail divine teacher". Paul McCartney commented on April 3, 2009, in a press conference prior to his performance at the David Lynch Foundation benefit concert ”Change Begins Within”, that Transcendental Meditation was a gift the Beatles had received from Maharishi at a time when they were looking for something to stabilize them. The concert, headlined by McCartney on April 4, 2009, was created to raise funds to support teaching TM to one million children around the world. [38] During part of the concert McCartney was accompanied on stage by Ringo Starr for only the second time since the breakup of The Beatles many years earlier. |
The Beatles met Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in August 1967, studying with him in
Bangor, Wales, and in early 1968, flew to Rishikesh, India to "devote themselves fully to his instruction".
[39] Starr and McCartney left after a few weeks because of food and other personal reasons.
[40] Lennon and Harrison departed two weeks later after hearing a rumor that the Maharishi had made sexual advances towards
Mia Farrow and a few other women.
[41]
[42]
Later, Lennon classified the incident as "an error in judgment". citation needed According to a New York times article, after Lennon’s death, in 1980, Harrison and McCartney reconsidered the accusations. McCartney said that the rumors of sexual impropriety were raised by Alexis Mardas who "had agendas of his own, and may have fabricated (or at least exaggerated) the story". [43] Harrison commented, "Now, historically, there's the story that something went on that shouldn't have done — but nothing did". [44] Farrow's autobiography is ambiguous about the incident: she describes "panicking" and fleeing after the Maharishi put his arms around her in a dark cave, immediately after a private meditation session, and that "at my level of consciousness, if Jesus Christ Himself had embraced me, I would have misinterpreted it." [45] According to a New York Times article the influence of the Maharishi and going to Rishikesh to meditate, weaned The Beatles from LSD and inspired them to write many new songs which later were recorded on the White Album. [46] After the Maharishi's death on February 5, 2008, Sir Paul McCartney released a statement saying, "Whilst I am deeply saddened by his passing, my memories of him will only be joyful ones. He was a great man who worked tirelessly for the people of the world...." Ringo Starr released a statement saying, "One of the wise men I met in my life was the Maharishi. I always was impressed by his joy and I truly believe he knows where he is going." [47] In a press conference on April 3, 2009, prior to his performance at the David Lynch Foundation benefit concert ”Change Begins Within”, Paul McCartney commented that Transcendental Meditation was a gift the Beatles had received from Maharishi at a time when they were looking for something to stabilize them. The concert, headlined by McCartney on April 4, 2009, was created to raise funds to support teaching TM to one million children around the world. [48] |
Other deleted material:
The "Sexie Sadie" content was removed in a rewrite of the Beatles section several months ago. One editor objects to this content not being included in the section. Are there other comments on the inclusion or exclusion of this material? Context of the discussion so far, above ( olive ( talk) 02:32, 15 January 2010 (UTC))
Well, I admit to not paying any attention to the matter at the time, so it's partly my fault. I'm still getting up to speed on this topic and I don't catch all the nuances. Anyway, here we are now. Is the current version a complete and balanced summary of the key events in the Maharishi's life as it overlapped with The Beatles? Obviously the song needs to go back in. Anyone who wonders why should read the previous discussions towards the top of this page. We don't need to rehash all of those points. Is there anything else that can be improved? Will Beback talk 12:58, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
I apologize for interrupting your comment above with my post. For some reason I saw your posts as two separate posts.
You are attempting to make it look as if I am acting against a consensus. That isn't true. I am expressing an opinion on a talk page. Having an opinion is not ignoring outside input . Having an opinion is having an opinion. Further, you are saying this is another instance of ignoring outside input. I have never edited into an article against any Notice Board input or outside input. I do have opinions and as a Wikipedia editor my opinions as expressed on any talk page are as legitimate as any any other editor's opinion. You are indeed mischaracterizing not only my comments but me. You did the same to BWB. If you continue to create misinformation about editors here I will take this wherever it needs to go next, including arbitration. Don't try to make it look as if I was against adding the Sexie Sadie material . As a copy editor, I didn't think it was necessary, nor is the content on other songs referencing Maharishi in a positive light unless the section is allowed to become longer which I believe is a mistake. Those are my opinions, but I am not editing those changes into the article. If you re add the content I have no concerns with it if other editors agree, as I have said several times above. Finally, your comment about TG is a clear case of not AGF, and is snide. Not good. ( olive ( talk) 09:30, 16 January 2010 (UTC))
FWIW, I've never felt that this song had much relevance to MMY. I've never had any confidence in rumors of MMY's departures from his vows of celibacy, and I've never had any confidence in the accuracy of the Beatles' views (or those of other celebrity supporters from the 1960s) on anything having to do with MMY. My views have found some confirmation in the recent reversals of their former accusations by the surviving Beatles (not that the press has noticed). David spector ( talk) 19:35, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Will, if you're still working on this section, you may want to also include mention of Lennon's "The Maharishi Song" which blasts the Maharishi as a "not holy" (...) "sex maniac". Years later one of the victims of the Maharishi's lechery went public to a South African newspaper. Close assistants indicate that this is likely the 'tip of the iceberg' for this "life-long celibate", as a common file on his activities (called the Sexie Sadie file) demonstrates in a number of interviews with his former victims.-- Kala Bethere ( talk) 14:29, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Sources for "The Maharishi Song":
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help)The Everett book is probably self-published and so unacceptable. But the other two give plenty of detail. It's undoubtedly about the subject, and is no more obscure than “Spiritual Regeneration”, which was added recently. Will Beback talk 17:20, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Will to flesh out the Sexie Sadie reference it might be helpful to include some quotes from one of the Maharishi's former personal secretary, Conny Larsson, who in his book Behind the Mask of a Clown wrote "Maharishi’s sex life, for example, was extensive, to say the least. That a man in his position had a sex life I regarded as quite incongruous. As I had been very close to him I was often in charge of the key to his room, which he asked me on various occasions to hand over to one of the young ladies."-- Kala Bethere ( talk) 14:16, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Woo
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Yeah, there was a big hullabaloo about him trying to rape Mia Farrow or trying to get off with Mia Farrow and a few other women, things like that.
...I was blinking at his beard when suddenly I became aware of two surprisingly male, hairy arms going around me. I panicked, and shot up the stairs, apologizing all the way. I flew out into the open air, and ran as fast as I could to Prudy's room... I blurted out something about Maharishi's cave, and arms, and beard, and she said, It's an honor to be touched by a holy many after meditation, a tradition. Furthermore, at my level of consciousness, if Jesus Christ Himself had embraced me, I would have misinterpreted it.
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Yeah, there was a big hullabaloo about him trying to rape Mia Farrow or trying to get off with Mia Farrow and a few other women, things like that.
...I was blinking at his beard when suddenly I became aware of two surprisingly male, hairy arms going around me. I panicked, and shot up the stairs, apologizing all the way. I flew out into the open air, and ran as fast as I could to Prudy's room... I blurted out something about Maharishi's cave, and arms, and beard, and she said, It's an honor to be touched by a holy many after meditation, a tradition. Furthermore, at my level of consciousness, if Jesus Christ Himself had embraced me, I would have misinterpreted it.
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 8 |
Typical! Lengthy trash on drug addicted Beatles but no real discussion of the guru Mahesh Yogi. More needs to be added regarding the TM movement and definitely the Maharishi Universities worldwide! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.39.64 ( talk) 03:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
There are rumours that the Maharishi had died on Jan. 12th, and the movement hasn't published it yet. Comment from insiders, please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karpada ( talk • contribs) 10:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Announced on www.maharishichannel.org, channel three, by Nader Raam. I guess that Veda commentary isn't going to get done. So much for perfect health.
Judyjoejoe (
talk) 23:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I am moving this material for discussion and a reference check since this is a biography of a living person and guidelines are strict as per additions. For discussion, WP:Weight might be considered.( olive ( talk) 23:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC))
Regardless of the underlying cause, Lennon remained bitter towards the Maharishi, penning the song "Sexy Sadie" about him (with the refrain "what have you done? You made a fool of everyone"). [1]
Biographies of living persons (BLPs) must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is "do no harm".
You're right . The line immediately following the new addition makes reference to "another rumour" I will remove that actually since its not accurate . The Lennon material is rather, controversy. I have to disagree though on adding Sexy Sadie. This is insulting to a spiritual leader and does refer to rumours that circulated on inappropriate behaviour ... all rumours proved false multiple times including in a public performance by Donovan, also present at the Ahsram, and who explained the attempt by press and others to draw the Beatles away from Rishikesh. I'm not sure how to deal with this. I believe also including this much material violates WP:Fringe and WP:Weight Best wishes.( olive ( talk) 21:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC))
The visibility and popularity of the organization can largely be attributed to the Beatles. In 1968, the band, with great publicity, began studying with the Maharishi at his Himalayan retreat, or ashram, in Rishikesh, in northern India. They went with their wives, the folk singer Donovan, the singer Mike Love, of the Beach Boys, the actress Mia Farrow and Ms. Farrow’s sister Prudence. They left in the wake of rumors of sexual improprieties by the Maharishi, an avowed celibate, though no sexual-misconduct suits were filed and some of the participants later denied that anything untoward had occurred.
When I look at the discussion in this section, I see one person offering multiple ways of getting attributed information in and two saying that under no circumstances should it be allowed. The reasons offered for insertion are that it is one of the most famous groups and persons in the world writing a critically important song to express his view, and the others say that's not important enough. Well, here's the acid test: How famous would the Marharishi have been without the Beatles? If his fame in the West derives somewhat from his association with the Beatles (and I would say it derives entirely; it was that connection that led to all the Dick Cavett show appearances, the Laugh-In stuff, and all the thousands of appearances he made 1970-74, and it was those that led to the success of his book, whatever its intrinsic values or whatever the zeitgeist of the West), then their opinions even without the song would be important information to the biography. So, if, as most believe, this association was the most famous episode, and if people followed the lives of the Beatles the way they would a soap opera character (and five times as closely as they now do the demise of Britney et al.), then John's disaffection was a famous episode. In fact, I remember it. I remember how the issue of the Maharishi became one of the John/Paul splits, how fans lined up between Paul & George for him or John against him. The controversy increased the stature of the figure. In fact, the Maharishi was one of the many blamed for "breaking up the Beatles."
So, should the statement be in? Yes. It's an important facet of the biography of the figure. It's not undue at all. It's also not going to poison or harm the figure in any way, were he alive, because, in fact, it actually ended up helping his profile and made him more famous. So, a neutral and factual statement of John's stated attitude is germane and hardly a sabotaging of the article. Geogre ( talk) 11:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
So far as any reference work is concerned, the person exists only as a public figure. Therefore, what is part of the shaping of the public figure is important, and what is not part of that is not. Therefore, if John's disaffection was part of increasing the figure's fame at a critical point, then it is "in." If John's disaffection led to increased discussion of the public figure's role, then it is "in." Whether John is telling the truth is not up to a secondary or tertiary source of information, and it is also not relevant to a discussion of the arc of a figure's career. It's quite easy to be neutral about the material, and Nandesuka was being fairly neutral.
A primary biography is out, but so is a hagiography. A reader is not looking, probably, for "why is this the greatest person, ever," but instead, "Why is everyone talking about him?" They can read the book TM, and it's a nice book with a large influence over popular culture and cultural history in the US, but part of what put the man in the position to be famous enough to convince masses of people to give the book a chance (and his was hardly the only meditation guide on the market at the time; I think Alan Watts's popularizing books on Zen were popular) was both the role with the Beatles and the controversy. I.e. the "he's a hypocrite/bad man/svengali" discussion was part of the fame/infamy that made everyone interested in what he had to say. We never report the truth: we report the truth as it appears through secondary sources. Geogre ( talk) 11:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
A lot of discussion here about the role of the Beatles in Maharishi's career in the west. So from the flip side, here's a fascinating article from the New York Times about the extraordinary influence Maharishi had on their creativity. [7] TimidGuy ( talk) 20:54, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Musician, September, 1992, p. 43 (the part in brackets appears that way in the magazine)
Harrison: "Yeah, I called it 'Sexie Sadie.' The title John had was not nice at all. At least he realized that. At least he realized that. Because there was nothing that ever happened except that there was a fella who was supposedly a friend of ours who stirred up and created this big fantasy. [Note: Beatles pal Magic Alex Mardas told John and George that the Maharishi might have made sexual advances to one of the woman pilgrims. This led to a confrontation between Lennon and the Maharishi and Lennon's returning to England.] There was never anything that took place." TimidGuy ( talk) 17:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
By the way, it seems like we need to avoid conflating the Farrow thing with the Mardas story. No source that I looked at said that Mardas spread rumors regarding Farrow. They related to someone else. And all of the sources except for one attribute the departure of John and George to the latter. TimidGuy ( talk) 17:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
There apparently were rumors about Farrow, though sources say little about that. Rather, the sources focus on a story that came from Mardas about Maharishi being sexually involved with an American nurse who was on the course. This was the precipitating event that led to the departure of John and George. (Ringo and Paul had left much earlier.)
Who were the parties to what you characterize as a "bitter dispute"? TimidGuy ( talk) 12:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I see the media are starting to pick the inaccuracies in this article. [8] Cynthia's version published today pretty closely follows what she says in her book [9]. TimidGuy ( talk) 16:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Nandesuaka. I'm not talking about what inspired John to write Sexy Sadie. Rather, I'm talking about first-hand sources which describe the reason for their departure and the fact that Mardas was the source for the story that precipitated their departure -- a story unrelated to Mia Farrow. I've not seen any first-hand accounts that say that Mardas spread rumors about Mia Farrow, as this article says. Hope you don't mind discussing this. Not trying to create conflict here. TimidGuy ( talk) 17:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Nandesuka. And by the way, thanks for your earlier revert of the info about Lennon's carving of the words to the song. I agree that it was excessive detail, and I see that the same editor put it in the Sexy Sadie article, which is the place for it. In Cynthia's autobiography she also says a young American nurse. All of the accounts are quite uniform -- John, George, Cynthia, Pattii Boyd -- regarding what happened. Mardas told John and George that Maharishi was sexually involved with this woman who was on the course; they argued all night whether it could be true, with George not ready to believe it. Finally, George acquiesced. That morning they went in to confront Maharishi. John told him they were leaving. Maharishi asked why. John said something like, "You're the cosmic master who knows everything, you know why." Then they left. That's why I wondered about whether we should say "bitter dispute." Since it wasn't much of a dispute, and Maharishi had no idea why they were leaving (according to the first-hand accounts). Both Patti and Cynthia say there were surprised that John and George believed Mardas, and later Paul and George said they thought that Mardas made the whole thing up.
Anyway, not sure what I'm getting at, other than maybe we need to rewrite this a bit. : ) I'll give it some thought. TimidGuy ( talk) 21:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
What I'd like us to consider is moving the Sexy Sadie material to the following paragraph which talks about specific songs related to their experience in India. That will make it easier to address the issues we discussed in the first paragraph (that Mardas wasn't responsible for rumors regarding Farrow and that most of the first-hand accounts, including an interview with John in the Beatles Anthology, attribute their departure to the Mardas story). We can then, in the following paragraph, still attribute the inspiration for Sexy Sadie to both the Mardas story and Farrow. TimidGuy ( talk) 16:55, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Opening para:
Infobox:
Are we saying he was definitely born on 12 January, but the year is uncertain? Or are we saying his exact day of birth is unknown, not even whether it's 12 January or some other day of the year? This needs to be clarified. -- JackofOz ( talk) 01:03, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
This article seems like an advertisment rather than a NPOV encyclopedia article. I didn't see any serious critisism. Is it that there was never any major critisim or negetive aspect to the life of this person? Farmanesh ( talk) 14:53, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
JAI KARUNAMAYI!, YESTERDAY I WAS RECORDING AMMA [Sri Karunamayi's] TALK ON SARASWATHI DEVI. ALL OF A SUDDEN AMMA [Sri Karunamayi] STOPPED HER TALK AND TOLD ME MAHARISHI ATTAINED MAHA SAMADHI. I WAS SHOCKED. AMMA CLOSED HER EYES FOR 10/12 MIN. SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN COMMUNICATING WITH HIS SOUL.
I OFFER MY RESPECTS AND PRAYERS FOR THIS GREAT ATMAN. SWAMIJI. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.178.127.50 ( talk) 01:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Although those who admired him probably think of him with devotion or fondness (I respect the man) it is impossible to have a balanced view unless the full spectrum of his life is shared. There has been criticism of the wealth of the movement, their sometimes extravagant and contradictory plans, there is that stone to death issue with the Beatles...I am sure mention of the criticism on his approach and life can be included with elegance and respect. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Diabulos (
talk •
contribs) 19:34, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Nandesuka: Greetings from a native speaking German from Germany. The german text goes: "Er hat sich um 19 Uhr in die perfekte Yoga-Position begeben und ist friedlich eingeschlafen." In the context of dying the meaning of "ist eingeschlafen" is ALWAYS "he died", similar to "ist entschlafen". -- Josha52 ( talk) 19:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Nadesuka: Sorry, in this regard to simplify means to hide an important information. Could we find an expression which makes it more clear that he passed consciously? Your English is better ... -- Josha52 ( talk) 19:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Please google "Mia Farrow Maharishi Allahabad". Mia Ferrow visited the funeral. This should be mentioned since this circumstance sheds light on those rumors of the sixties. --
Josha52 (
talk) 19:44, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, no new facts: error of mine. thought that Mia attended the funeral, but cant find source. -- Josha52 ( talk) 19:55, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Between 1988 and 1990 various magazine articles estimates his net worth at $3.5 billion. I can find no more recent guess, and apparently someone has gone through a great deal of trouble to conceal his income, and the raw extent of it. Can anyone find any sources for this data? -- 70.131.112.41 ( talk) 15:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
We do not know what exactly MMY's ties with MUM are. I wish someone would work up a some information concerning how this supposed guru without pockets managed to own quite a compound in the Netherlands, how the TMO has 225 million dollars worth of land (according to the NYTs) in the US, and the involvement of his families in India in organizations founded in his name. According to form 990s filed with the IRS, significant sums go from the US organizations to India. But maybe this is more appropriate for the TM page. Judyjoejoe ( talk) 02:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I would also like to see someone work up information concerning MMYs method of governance and the secrecy concerning him and his health. Before he died he did not appear in public for years. He even spoke to aids through close circuit television. According to Deepak Chopra's claimed first hand account(see the Huffington Post), MMY thought in the early 1990s he had been poisoned, he almost died, and was treated for his illnesses in England, but kept all this secret. This is important information about the man because he and the TMO promotes Vedic medicine rather than western medicine but it is clear that MMY availed himself of western medical systems quite frequently but went out of his way to keep it secret. According to Chopra he was diabetic, suffered from pancreatic inflammation, and had a heart attack at some point Judyjoejoe ( talk) 02:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Seems like we need to do a bit of cleanup. Following Maharishi's death a lot of material got added, and possibly not all relevant in the long run. Maybe details regarding his passing, such as his posture at the time of death, should be deleted. And someone just added duplicate info about "Across the Universe. Olive, are you here? You've always done a good job cleaning things up. Can you look at this? TimidGuy ( talk) 20:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Excellent work! I tried to fix the errors in the Beatles section -- the fact that all the first-hand sources except Wenner attribute their departure to the American nurse story said to have been originated by Mardas. And made clear that Mardas wasn't related to the Farrow story. I've never seen a single source say that he spread rumors regarding Farrow. It's odd how frequently the media reported that in the obituaries. I hope they didn't get that from this article. We need to still fix the Sexy Sadie sentence, since it makes Lennon's song the main point. Rather, their departure itself should be the main point in the syntax -- because historically the fact of their departure is more significant than the song. TimidGuy ( talk) 16:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
These pictures are now available: [10], [11], [12]. -- Josha52 ( talk) 10:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Wow, Nandesuka. That was a pretty big rollback. I did question some of the material, but some of it was perfectly well sourced, such as the citation to the New York Times. I can't understand such a blanket revert, especially without discussion. TimidGuy ( talk) 16:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Nandesuka. Sorry, I thought I remembered that we had consensus to change this when you noted that Spitz said "an American nurse." I've' examined many sources, and they all say the same thing and tell a very specific and detailed story -- that Mardas relayed a story about this nurse. and that this was the precipitating incident. The sources include the first-hand accounts by Cnythia Lennon and Patti Boyd who were at the meeting along with John and George in which they had intended to confront Maharishi with the story. If I remember correctly, even John himself says it differently in the Beatles anthology. I think this quote in Wenner is anomalous. Not sure what to do. The problem is that your revised version seems to make Lennon's quote the default. Seems like that shouldn't trump the other sources. In the Beatles anthology George explicitly says, "It wasn't Miai Farrow, it was someone else." Another way that Lennon's quote is anomalous is that it suggests that there were additional rumors. But in dozens of sources, or perhaps hundreds or thousands, if you count the recent space of obituaries, there is no mention of any rumors beyond the America nurse and Mia Farrow. Eager to know what you think. TimidGuy ( talk) 08:46, 10 March 2008 (UTC) Also, in the Beatles anthology George gives a different reason for his departure: that he had always only planned to stay for the first portion of the course in Rishikesh and had planned to leave when the venue moved north. So Wenner really only explains John's departure (since Paul and Ringo had left much earlier). Anyway, I guess it needs still more tweaking. What to do? Seems endless, especially as there are so many different accounts. TimidGuy ( talk) 10:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for adding this detail and citing it. But I'm afraid that this large section makes the article sound too promotional. Plus, it may be a violation of undue weight to allot so much space to this. If this is to be in keeping with policy and the scope of the other sections of the article, it seems like it could be a few sentences. What do others think? TimidGuy ( talk) 15:01, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
We could maybe retain some of the info within the references while greatly reducing what appears in the article itself. TimidGuy ( talk) 19:06, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
The issue of undue weight is that this long section skews the balance of the article. Also, all of the material, except the final citation, is sourced to self-published material. According to WP:SPS, such material can't be used if it's unduly self-serving. Also, it really shouldn't be used to make claims. In this case, the claimed recognition is something that ideally would be independently reported. In the U.S. it's very common for public relations entities to give these sorts of recognitions, and they may not always be meaningful. That's something that would be filtered by an independent source. TimidGuy ( talk) 16:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
References
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There is no real section for this information right now and as well these additions would need sources. This article has been the scene of highly contentious discussions so all editors should discuss any such major addition, especially since it would require a new section.( olive ( talk) 16:29, 20 April 2008 (UTC))
There are some discrepancies in the addition to the Beatles on, Lennon's admission of a mistake. For example, BBC is said to have printed the admission, and of course BBC is not a newspaper... My thought is that it would be very nice to link this to a source . This article and section are highly contentious so this kind of addition should be more clearly sourced for the reader. I do correct/copy edit the material, but still a source a reader can get to would be best.( olive ( talk) 03:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC))
Posting here material that was recently added and removed from the article so that the person who contributed it can present a rationale for including this or something similar:
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Knowledge is structured in consciousness. [1] ‘Fruit of all knowledge’ is the ability to live mistake-free life in higher states of consciousness, daily life in full accordance with all the Laws of Nature, with the spontaneous ability to do everything right and achieve anything. In its “self-referral” state, or transcendental state, consciousness knows itself alone…[it] is the unified state of knower, knowing and known. The whole population of the world is violating Natural Law, and consequently…human life everywhere is shrouded with problems…The only way out…is that…one should…develop higher states of consciousness and thereby live enlightenment and fulfilment in daily life – Heaven on Earth. Those who practice Transcendental Meditation have the experience that Transcendental Consciousness is unbounded awareness – it is pure wakefulness; it it fully awake within itself; it knows only itself and nothing else. The seven states of consciousness are Waking, Dreaming, Sleeping, Transcendental Consciousness, Cosmic Consciousness, God Consciousness and Unity Consciousness. Now millions of Vedic Scientists practising…Transcendental Meditation…are busy creating purity in world consciousness, the fertile ground for Heaven on Earth. …in the language of religion, act in accordance with the ‘Will of God’; or, in the language of science, live life according to Natural Law… …research in consciousness is the journey of the attention through sequentially finer levels of the thought process, until the awareness fathoms the source of thought… Enlightened people of every religion rightfully see the light of their own Lord everywhere, and on that level the Light of God prevails; appreciation and glorification of the reality of their own religion prevails…the Light of God is the goal of every religion. This experience of self-referral unbounded awareness enlivens the holistic level of functioning of the whole brain physiology… …this one simple technology is able to produce such an extraordinary range of benefits because it enlivens the most basic level of existence… The Maharishi Effect…global research demonstrated…[that] the square root of one per cent of a population practising the…TM-Sidhi Programme…together in one place is sufficient to neutralize negative tendencies and promote positive trends throughout the whole population… |
On a user Talk page this was the state rationale for inclusion: "One of the things that makes Maharishi interesting is his contribution to the discussion of consciousness. The extracts I added are headlines for topics he dealt with in hundreds of hours of lectures and a number of books. There is a large community (and not just Maharishi's mob) that is expert in such matters, and I feel the article is unbalanced if it doesn't give a brief pointer to his thinking." TimidGuy ( talk) 11:36, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Edit conflict
Hi TG & Olive. Have been looking harder at the material, and I think I see a framework for the presentation. I hope this link Talk:Maharishi Mahesh Yogi/Consciousness will create a subpage where we can work on drafts (guidelines seem to indicate this is the right thing to do), and I've written there about the framework. Ber ( talk) 02:56, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi TG, Olive & Somanatha,
I've put a draft on the Maharishi Consciousness Talk page, for your comment. Best wishes Ber ( talk) 06:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi TG. Perhaps I can see how to approach a rewrite of the type you suggest - I'll think about it. About whether the words are Maharishi's: I think it's clear that some sections in MVUI have been written by others, but I tried to select excerpts that had the flavor of his language. There is a problem with discussing or paraphrasing, in that I couldn't guarantee that I had full understanding of the teaching. I find this exercise has sharpened my appreciation of it, as if my camera had been a bit out of focus. But that's a long way from being an authority. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ber.maguire ( talk • contribs) 07:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
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Teaching on consciousnessMaharishi’s teaching on consciousness can be seen in his 1994 book Maharishi Vedic University – Introduction [2] to unfold at three levels: individual, collective and fundamental: With reference to waking, dreaming and sleeping, he defines a fourth state: “Those who practise Transcendental Meditation have the experience that Transcendental Consciousness is unbounded awareness – it is pure wakefulness; it is fully awake within itself; it knows only itself and nothing else. This experience of self-referral unbounded awareness enlivens the holistic level of functioning of the whole brain physiology. [3] There are important practical implications: the whole population of the world is violating Natural Law, and consequently human life everywhere is shrouded with problems. The only way out is that one should develop higher states of consciousness and thereby live enlightenment and fulfilment in daily life – Heaven on Earth. [4] Maharishi says: “'Fruit of all knowledge' [means] the ability to live mistake-free life in higher states of consciousness, daily life in full accordance with all the Laws of Nature, with the spontaneous ability to do everything right and achieve anything.” [5] Moreover, the practice of a few individuals can have a direct effect on the environment: “Coherence in collective consciousness and positivity and harmony in national consciousness is produced by the group practice of Maharishi’s Transcendental Meditation.” [6] And, at the fundamental level: “The infinite diversity and dynamism of the creation is just the expression of the eternally silent, self-referral, self-sufficient, unbounded field of consciousness. All life emerges from and is sustained in consciousness. The whole universe is the expression of consciousness; the reality of the universe is one unbounded ocean of consciousness in motion.” [7] On the basis of this unfolding of the concept of consciousness, Maharishi declares: “The truth is that the Light of God is eternally the same, and it is available to the enlightened in his own self-referral consciousness, which is transcendental reality and is actually never influenced by the language in which it is expressed. In the language of religion, act in accordance with the Will of God; or, in the language of science, live life according to Natural Law.” [8] Therefore the Light of God is the goal of every religion. [9] |
Hi Ber. In no way does discussing this material have to do with whatever experience you may have. This has been a highly contentious article with lots of fierce arguments and discussions . The Wikipedia way of dealing with much of this kind of disagreement is to have a consensus or agreement between editors . Adding any material to this article will probably be most easily done if editors before it is added to the article agree on the material. This helps to ensure that we all scrutinize the material for Wikipedia policy/guideline infractions, so that other editors coming in are dealing with something that is at the least compliant . This is just a standard way of proceeding. As well since we are dealing with teaching /philosophies that can be open to interpretation, we, should agree on what that interpretation is to prevent later problems. Thanks very much for you work, and lets keep discussing...:0)( olive ( talk) 14:11, 4 September 2008 (UTC))
List of fundamental teachings: Add comment, if needed, underneath each point
Comments:
Comments:
I am not an editor of this article, but while reading here, I was dismayed to see that the article reads Maharishi as if Maharishi was part of his name. I have always understood that the term "Maharishi" is an honorific title similar to "father," "reverend" or "rabbi." There are many maharishis, just like there are many priests. In light of this, some parts of this article are grammatically misleading, drawing readers to conclude that "Maharishi" is a name. I suggest revising the appropriate parts of the article with "the Maharishi," in the same way as one might refer to a professor (PhD.) as "the professor," or "professor."
So, for example: "Professor went to the university" isn't correct. "The professor went to the university," or "Professor Doe went to the university" are correct. Professor isn't the man's name. Maharishi wasn't Mahesh's name. And Yogi wasn't his name either, that's another identifying term?
If I'm wrong please ignore this. If I'm right, and you are one of the regular editors here, please try to fix it. I'd do it myself, but I personally feel that it would be bad Wikipedia etiquette to swoop in and edit an article that I'm not tuned into. Thanks. VictorC ( talk) 15:49, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
This is a change across multiple articles so I would not want to make this change without discussion and clear agreement from the other editors. At one point I said I wasn't attached one way or the other, but on more thought I think that how MMY is named in the majority of literature and Media is an important consideration. I don't see that the WP:MOS really deals with this situation. Any way,let's keep talking.( olive ( talk) 16:24, 3 April 2009 (UTC))
According to this citation the Maharishi lived in the Netherlands since 1990. That seems enough to show that he was Dutch of Indian descent, being that his residential status was Dutch for more than fifteen years. Clearly he had adopted the Netherlands as his home. Why was the category removed? Werdnawerdna removed it with the notation: "I've never seen any evidence that he was, in any sense, Dutch." Obviously - I've never seen a lot of things, that doesn't make them false. I've never seen any snow in Antarctica, but it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not there is or isn't any snow there. All that it means is that I have yet to travel to Antarctica. Is this possibly an instance of Werdnawerdna simply not having looked for the reason the category had been entered here? If so, Werdnawerdna, will you please revert? VictorC ( talk) 20:34, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Edit conflict...add to comment of Andries above:
No-one is disputing that Maharishi spent his latter years in The Netherlands. However, mere residence in a country, regardless of the duration, does not give said person the national identity of the country of residence. He made The Netherlands his country of residence, but he was a foreigner in every sense of the word. He was not Dutch by descent, birth, upbringing, culture or nationality. That is what I meant in my edit summary; all the evidence proves that he was Indian; he did not have any other national identity. He is correctly regarded as Indian; all the evidence shows that. This article and talk page are the only places I have ever seen to claim he was Dutch. If someone is claiming he was Dutch (or anything other than Indian for that matter), then they need to provide evidence to back up that strange claim. The burden of proof rests with them, not the rest of the world, who rightly regard him as Indian. I, along with millions of other people, have seen a great deal of snow in Antarctica, be it on documentaries rather than in person. Thousands of people have actually been to Antarctica, and have seen the huge amounts of snow there for themselves. It is fact that there is always tons of snow in the world's coldest continent; it is proven, undisputed fact. I do not know why the Dutch category was applied to this article, but I know it was incorrectly added, which is why I removed it. Ayaan Hirsi Ali qualifies as Dutch in so much as she is a Dutch citizen; she has ceased to be a Muslim and lives a Western lifestyle; she has become 'less foreign' (that said, she is still an immigrant and is still of foreign origin). Maharishi never Westernised (nor did he try to or want to). Therefore he remained Indian; he did not, at any point, become Dutch. Werdnawerdna ( talk) 11:07, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
A discussion of the pronunciation on this would probably center on Sanskrit pronunciations, of which I am not an expert. However linguistically speaking, the "v" on the end of Dev has a slightly "open" sound rather than a completely "stopped" stopped sound as a "d" would have, for example, giving a short "a" sound to the word. The word Dev can also spelled Deva in English. As well, inclusion of why Lennon preferred one pronunciation over another, or one spelling over another should probably be sourced. At best the comment is trivia, and personally I would not include it.( olive ( talk) 16:36, 1 January 2009 (UTC))
Since there was talk on Talk:Maharishi Vedic Science about merging that article here, I went ahead and added mergeto and mergefrom tags, which point to this page for discussion. Please comment if you care one way or the other. Dicklyon ( talk) 04:00, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Pdquesnell ( talk) 20:02, 12 May 2009 (UTC) I think it would be best to NOT merge this (hopefully) biographical article with the any article about the teachings and writings of Maharishi. I would like to remove the "mergeto" tags.
The recent additions from two anonymous accounts in the Beatles section of the article don't seem particularly encyclopedic, particularly the last addition. (which also needs a cite) It is only tangentially related to the article - it actually seems to have more to do with David Lynch Foundation than with this article. Wikipedia isn't a newspaper, and extensive quotes from books and articles are largely to be avoided in Wikipedia articles. I'm not going to delete this stuff - though I'd be tempted to in a less contentious article. I'll leave that to the other editors to act on - but I think it should either be deleted or extensively rewritten. Fladrif ( talk) 20:36, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
The "References" section should only contain sources that are used in this article, and the "External links" section should contain only items about or by the subject. Several items in these sections appear to be more related to TM in general, or are simply "Further reading" and should be moved into a different section. Will Beback talk 21:11, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
It seems the references are all listed under "Notes" and the Ref section is more suggested reading. Does this need to be rectified? -- Kbob ( talk) 21:34, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
I have today removed the following links:
I have also removed these links:
If any editors disagree with these removals, we can discuss and add back into the article if there is a valid reason to include them. Generally the guidelines for Wiki WP:EL are that external links should be: minimal, meritable, relevant, unique and should contain info that cannot be integrated into the article. The following types of links are forbidden: MySpace, Facebook, Tweeter, promo web sites, personal blogs, personal web sites, biased web sites and a long lists of links in general are forbidden.-- Kbob ( talk) 19:57, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I checked the rules at the
WP:EL page and I agree with you--
Luke Warmater101 (
talk) 21:22, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
The following links (below) I have left in the Suggested Reading section, for now, but I question their validity, since they do not report directly on aspects of Maharishi's life but instead talk about places or institutions with his name. What do others think?
References http://www.tm.org/learn/where/index.html --This seems like an invite to me, we already have an official link to the TM/Maharshi page, I suggest we remove this link.
Deans, Ashley, PhD (2005) A Record of Excellence: The Remarkable Success of Maharishi School of the Age of Enlightenment--To the best of my knowledge this book does not discuss the life of Maharishi, I suggest we remove it.
"THE TM CRAZE: 40 Minutes to Bliss". Time (magazine). October 13, 1975. -- http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,947229,00.html. Retrieved on 2004-04-25. --One of hundreds of articles on TM does it have special relevance?
Lee, Gary (November 12, 2006). "Om on the Grange". The Washington Post. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/10/AR2006111000463.html?nav=emailpage. Retrieved on 2004-04-25.--Article on MUM
Lydersen, Kari (August 9, 2004). "Iowa Town Booms On Eastern Ways". The Washington Post. http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A50643-2004Aug8?language=printer. Retrieved on 2004-04-25.---Article on Vedic City
I think they should all be removed, and perhaps re-posted on a different site, for instance one on Transcendental Meditation, since they seem to be mostly about that. You might consider leaving the "Om on the grange" article, but even that is pretty marginal to this topic.-- Luke Warmater101 ( talk) 22:31, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
In the article it says that "Allahabad University list of distinguished alumni calls him "M.C. Shrivastava" but that "Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was born Mahesh Prasad Varma". Why would he be called "M.C. Shrivastava" by Allahabad University? Is there any connection between the 2 versions of the name? Bigweeboy 20:17, April 25, 2009
Another editor has added a section called documentary film. It contained several promotional sentences and links which I have removed. I have left behind a few sentences. What do other editors think? is it notable? Do we have sources for this? Or should we delete it? -- Kbob ( talk) 17:07, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
In 1968, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi commissioned Alan Waite to create a documentary about Transcendental Meditation. It is entitled “Sage For A New Generation.” It won 'Best Documentary' in the 1969 Hollywood Film Festival, being noted for its 'patchwork quilt' style.
This addition is not so much about Maharishi but about the film and Alan Waite, and as such in my mind should probably not be mentioned in this article . Maharishi created numerous videos and there are numerous films about him. This one seems no more notable than any of those.
As well I am somewhat concerned about the neutrality of the user who originally added the material (User name:Alan Waite). Further there is now no reference althothe original reference was an advertising site for the video. ( olive ( talk) 17:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC))
I removed this which is an excuse to provide us with yet another link to Paul Mason and his books for sale. Links to Paul Mason's books have been posted on several articles in Wiki which have recently been uncovered by me and removed. * Allen Ginsberg interviews the Maharishi -- Kbob ( talk) 02:03, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
I would like to suggest that we change the "book section" from "Suggested readings" to "Further Readings", since we are not expressing any opinion about the listed texts, the term "further" strikes me as more appropriate than "suggested". How does everyone feel about that? -- Luke Warmwater101 ( talk) 16:48, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
I merged Maharishi Vedic Science into Maharishi Mahesh Yogi/Ideas [13] some time ago based on consensus. Today, I deleted the original page Maharishi Vedic Science and added a redirect to this page so that merge should now be complete.( olive ( talk) 17:16, 21 May 2009 (UTC))
I saw several ads for the TM movement clearly implying that you could learn to levitate off the ground after you paid for their "special classes". They called it yogic flying. Later they seemed to back away from these claims, saying it is possible but that they just currently attempt doing it as another meditation technique (essentially jumping around like frogs). Ykral ( talk) 07:12, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Now that I look more closely, I see that the Coplin source is a doctoral dissertation. [14] I'm not sure were Wikipedia is on using those as sources. But we should certainly identify it as a dissertation in the footnote and perhaps even in the text. Maybe it'd be better to write, According to a doctoral dissertation by Maharishi student Jay Randolph Coplin... Is the dissertation cited in any other scholarly sources? Will Beback talk 23:08, 8 July 2009 (UTC)]
Since you pointed out yourself that the information in the book Beacon Light was published by the organizer of the conference I am puzzled as to why you are adding information you know to be inaccurate, that is, that Maharishi published the book... even if the incorrect information is sourced, and during a somewhat heated discussion on that same source after an RS/N... Further I note that while the content is under discussion in one article and you are engaged in an edit war there you add text from that same source to another article. [15] while adding inaccurate content here. Concerned and puzzled.( olive ( talk) 17:40, 25 August 2009 (UTC))
These were the people who let Maharishi stay in their home when he first came to America. A book called "Hermit in the House" [16] was written by Mrs Olsen about the time Maharishi lived with them. -- BwB ( talk) 15:54, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I am adding information directly from the source, Beacon Light to clarify as per WP:NOR. the fact that TM is not mentioned in the book is noteworthy given the contention surrounding the material and discussion. I'm not positive it doesn't border on OR, however.( olive ( talk) 17:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC))
Having just read thru the article again today, I feel that the Beatles Section is too long relative to the size of the article. Yes, the Beatles had a large impact because of the the amount of press it generated, but relative to a 50 year career, and the larger influence MMY had on the world, the Beatles phase was small. We could either try to reduce and summarize the Beatles section, or we can expand the other sections, or add new material. What do others think? -- BwB ( talk) 18:42, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Since I have had no comments on this, I will start to edit the section to make it shorter. -- BwB ( talk) 21:10, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes, the section is abit long. It might be OK to condense, keeping in mind that the media, for better or for worse, always associates The Beatles with Maharishi.-- — Kbob • Talk • 21:41, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
I have reworked this section. You can find the proposed version in a sand-box here [17]. I feel it could even be shorted and would appreciate other editors feedback before making the changes to the mail article. Many thanks. -- BwB ( talk) 21:05, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I have moved the version I created in my sandbox on 28 Oct to the main page. -- BwB ( talk) 19:50, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
Good work on the Beatles section, Kbobb. I appreciate your efforts. I just reworded a couple of the sentences that seemed a little awkward. -- BwB ( talk) 21:08, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
The sources in the section are a little weak. If anyone can find stronger sources that would be a good thing.-- — Kbob • Talk • 22:04, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
... but, the reasons cited in your edit summaries are the funniest things I've read in a week. Thanks for the amusement, but let's get serious (notwithstanding that we're dealing with the subject matter of humorous parodies of someone universally called "The Giggling Guru") If you serious think that you're correcting a "POV" issue or addressing OR, I suggest that you reread those sections of Wikipedia, because you're not. When you cite four examples of something (and I could cite plenty more...including Maharishi Yogurt, Harvey Kurtzman's having him break his vows of celibacy for Little Annie Fanny, or the Maharishi and the Beatles joining in lofting Alfred E. Neuman on their shoulders and showering him with rose petals it's not an expression of POV nor original research to say that he's been repeatedly parodied in popular culture. Thus endeth the lesson. Fladrif ( talk) 21:59, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
The article quotes Maharishi as saying he had completed his "designed" duty to Guru Dev. I wondered if that was the right word or if it was supposed to be "designated." On this discussion page (for Jan 12, 2008) the same quote uses the word "designated" instead of "designed." I'm wondering which word is correct. It is only one word, but that may have been his last public statement. Besides, he was always so articulate, I think we should quote him correctly. -- Little Flower Eagle ( talk) 20:33, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
This sentence has recently been inserted into the article.
Did Leon McClaren have some notable affiliation with the Maharishi's life? During the Maharishi's several world tours he met many successful people and government leaders including The Beatles, Deepak Chopra, Donovan, Merv Griffin, Doug Henning, Clint Eastwood, Mary Tyler Moore, Burt Reynolds to just name a few off the top of my head. Should we have a sentence for each of these telling where they met the Maharishi and what they went on to do? If not, then I suggest consider removing the sentence on Leon McClaren.The Maharishi's European tours included a visit to London, where he met Leon MacLaren, who then introduced meditation and Advaita Vedanta to the School of Economic Science (SES).-- — Kbob • Talk • 02:27, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
In checking the ref for this, "and began publicly teaching what he states is a traditional meditation technique that he learned from his master, which he called Transcendental Deep Meditation and later renamed Transcendental Meditation", the page referenced, Pg. 25, is not available for viewing. Does someone have this source so we can check this for accuracy.
Russell, Peter, The T.M. Technique: An Introduction to Transcendental Meditation and the Teachings of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Routledge (1977) ISBN 0710085397, 9780710085399 p. 25
This content was removed and replaced with verifiable text from the LA Times:
We suddenly have a David Lynch section in this article. Here's some of the material in it:
That material does not seem to concern Maharishi Mahesh Yogi directly. It would be better in David Lynch or David Lynch Foundation. Will Beback talk 05:41, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
I have removed the above sentence as I can find no citation for it and it has been tagged for some time. If someone else can find a source we can add it back into the article.-- — Kbob • Talk • 12:25, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Yes Will, my crystal ball is working well thank you! :-) We could also add these to the article. [19] [20] [21]-- — Kbob • Talk • 00:25, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
An editor has appropriately removed the above quote from the lead per WP:LEAD. I am just parking it here in case it is thought to be useful in some other location in the article.-- — Kbob • Talk • 16:22, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
See Maharishi_Mahesh_Yogi#Death, where the quote is still featured in full. -- dab (𒁳) 11:30, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Every mainstream news source in English which addresses the question says that MMY died in his sleep, usually attributing the information to his spokesman, Bob Roth.
I haven't found a single mainstream news source in English reporting that he died while alert and in "perfect yoga posture". Why is this article relying upon an article in German, the translation of which is apparently in dispute (see discussions above) in preference to these English sources? See also WP:NONENG. If this extraordinary claim is to be used here, shouldn't it it should identify the person making it: Felix Kägi, a/k/a "His Highness Raja Felix of Switzerland"? Just asking. Fladrif ( talk) 15:23, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
I have looked through mainstream media sources and I have to agree that they say that Maharishi died in his sleep. However, several less mainstream sources do say Maharishi was alert and in yoga posture when he passed, see for instance http://www.4to40.com/legends/index.asp?id=1371 "On February 5th, the Maharishi passed away, alert, in yoga posture." I am not sure this would be enough, though. Just wondering. -- Luke Warmater101 ( talk) 19:59, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Pardon my ignorance - I probably know less about this topic than anyone editing here. Was TM created/discovered/developed by MMY, or was it a traditional meditation technique that he learned from Swami Brahmananda Saraswati and gave a new name? The word "western" was just added and then stricken from the intro, so I'm not sure whether this form of meditation ever existed in India prior to 1955. Will Beback talk 22:14, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Why was all references to the song "Sexy Sadie" removed from the article? I happened as part of a major rewrite of that section, which was posted with this edit summary:
But I don't see any discussion in 2009. The 2008 discussion brought in outside editors who said it's important. I searched around and found the text had been drafted in User:Bigweeboy/Sandbox by only one editor, and no other pages link there so it seems like no one else could have known about it. It appears that a significant amount of relevant, sourced material was deleted in the process. Can anyone explain what the process was for this rewrite? Will Beback talk 09:21, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
So there was an opportunity for others to participate. -- BwB ( talk) 12:44, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Do what you will, but this editor followed correct procedures in rewriting and readding the rewritten content. I doubt most other editors know about it. You might give others a chance to respond if that is truly a concern. I don't see a concern with BWB's rewrite. Consensus is changeable of course, but I won't discuss this change further unless there is considerable concern from a majority of editors.( olive ( talk) 20:36, 14 January 2010 (UTC))
21:06, November 3, 2009 [23] 606 words | 19:36, January 14, 2010 [24] 407 words |
---|---|
The Beatles met Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in August 1967, studying with him in
Bangor, Wales, and in early 1968, attended a TM teacher-training course in
Rishikesh, India. (Much of their "
White Album" was written during their stay in Rishikesh.) While Starr and McCartney left the Maharishi's camp for personal reasons, Lennon and Harrison departed after hearing a story that he had made sexual advances on
Mia Farrow or other course participants.
[27]
John Lennon wrote the song "
Sexy Sadie" ("what have you done? You made a fool of everyone") as he was leaving, the lyrics referring to the Maharishi.
[28]
"Magic" Alex Mardas had relayed the story to John and George, who felt betrayed by the Maharishi. [29] John Lennon would never again see Maharishi in person, but would phone him years later to apologize for his youthful mishap of publicly accusing Maharishi of improprieties—accusations that had nothing to do with Maharishi, but, seemingly, everything to do with John’s personal temperament (it was "an error in judgment," Lennon later commented). [30] An interview with Yoko Ono in Rolling Stone magazine, in March, 2008 reads, "If Lennon were alive today, says Yoko Ono, he probably would have reconciled with (Maharishi). "John would have been the first one now, if he had been here, to recognize and acknowledge what Maharishi has done for the world and appreciate it," she says." [31] Cynthia Lennon believed that Mardas invented a story about sexual impropriety to undermine the Maharishi's influence on the Beatles. [32] [33] George Harrison, years later, commented on the contretemps, saying, "Now, historically, there's the story that something went on that shouldn't have done—but nothing did." [34] Paul McCartney, in his biography, likewise says that he does not believe the allegations and also attributes them to Mardas. [35] Farrow's autobiography is ambiguous about the incident: she describes "panicking" and fleeing after the Maharishi put his arms around her in a dark cave, immediately after a private meditation session, and that "at my level of consciousness, if Jesus Christ Himself had embraced me, I would have misinterpreted it." [36] After the Maharishi's death on February 5, 2008, Sir Paul McCartney released a statement saying, "Whilst I am deeply saddened by his passing, my memories of him will only be joyful ones. He was a great man who worked tirelessly for the people of the world...." Ringo Starr released a statement saying, "One of the wise men I met in my life was the Maharishi. I always was impressed by his joy and I truly believe he knows where he is going." [37] On 5 February 2008, the Beatles' " Across the Universe" was beamed across the universe by NASA to celebrate the 40th anniversary of the song, the 45th anniversary of the DSN ( Deep Space Network), and the 50th anniversary of NASA. A part of the lyric are the words 'Jai Guru Deva' - a Sanskrit phrase that the Maharishi had taught the Beatles, which means "Hail divine teacher". Paul McCartney commented on April 3, 2009, in a press conference prior to his performance at the David Lynch Foundation benefit concert ”Change Begins Within”, that Transcendental Meditation was a gift the Beatles had received from Maharishi at a time when they were looking for something to stabilize them. The concert, headlined by McCartney on April 4, 2009, was created to raise funds to support teaching TM to one million children around the world. [38] During part of the concert McCartney was accompanied on stage by Ringo Starr for only the second time since the breakup of The Beatles many years earlier. |
The Beatles met Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in August 1967, studying with him in
Bangor, Wales, and in early 1968, flew to Rishikesh, India to "devote themselves fully to his instruction".
[39] Starr and McCartney left after a few weeks because of food and other personal reasons.
[40] Lennon and Harrison departed two weeks later after hearing a rumor that the Maharishi had made sexual advances towards
Mia Farrow and a few other women.
[41]
[42]
Later, Lennon classified the incident as "an error in judgment". citation needed According to a New York times article, after Lennon’s death, in 1980, Harrison and McCartney reconsidered the accusations. McCartney said that the rumors of sexual impropriety were raised by Alexis Mardas who "had agendas of his own, and may have fabricated (or at least exaggerated) the story". [43] Harrison commented, "Now, historically, there's the story that something went on that shouldn't have done — but nothing did". [44] Farrow's autobiography is ambiguous about the incident: she describes "panicking" and fleeing after the Maharishi put his arms around her in a dark cave, immediately after a private meditation session, and that "at my level of consciousness, if Jesus Christ Himself had embraced me, I would have misinterpreted it." [45] According to a New York Times article the influence of the Maharishi and going to Rishikesh to meditate, weaned The Beatles from LSD and inspired them to write many new songs which later were recorded on the White Album. [46] After the Maharishi's death on February 5, 2008, Sir Paul McCartney released a statement saying, "Whilst I am deeply saddened by his passing, my memories of him will only be joyful ones. He was a great man who worked tirelessly for the people of the world...." Ringo Starr released a statement saying, "One of the wise men I met in my life was the Maharishi. I always was impressed by his joy and I truly believe he knows where he is going." [47] In a press conference on April 3, 2009, prior to his performance at the David Lynch Foundation benefit concert ”Change Begins Within”, Paul McCartney commented that Transcendental Meditation was a gift the Beatles had received from Maharishi at a time when they were looking for something to stabilize them. The concert, headlined by McCartney on April 4, 2009, was created to raise funds to support teaching TM to one million children around the world. [48] |
Other deleted material:
The "Sexie Sadie" content was removed in a rewrite of the Beatles section several months ago. One editor objects to this content not being included in the section. Are there other comments on the inclusion or exclusion of this material? Context of the discussion so far, above ( olive ( talk) 02:32, 15 January 2010 (UTC))
Well, I admit to not paying any attention to the matter at the time, so it's partly my fault. I'm still getting up to speed on this topic and I don't catch all the nuances. Anyway, here we are now. Is the current version a complete and balanced summary of the key events in the Maharishi's life as it overlapped with The Beatles? Obviously the song needs to go back in. Anyone who wonders why should read the previous discussions towards the top of this page. We don't need to rehash all of those points. Is there anything else that can be improved? Will Beback talk 12:58, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
I apologize for interrupting your comment above with my post. For some reason I saw your posts as two separate posts.
You are attempting to make it look as if I am acting against a consensus. That isn't true. I am expressing an opinion on a talk page. Having an opinion is not ignoring outside input . Having an opinion is having an opinion. Further, you are saying this is another instance of ignoring outside input. I have never edited into an article against any Notice Board input or outside input. I do have opinions and as a Wikipedia editor my opinions as expressed on any talk page are as legitimate as any any other editor's opinion. You are indeed mischaracterizing not only my comments but me. You did the same to BWB. If you continue to create misinformation about editors here I will take this wherever it needs to go next, including arbitration. Don't try to make it look as if I was against adding the Sexie Sadie material . As a copy editor, I didn't think it was necessary, nor is the content on other songs referencing Maharishi in a positive light unless the section is allowed to become longer which I believe is a mistake. Those are my opinions, but I am not editing those changes into the article. If you re add the content I have no concerns with it if other editors agree, as I have said several times above. Finally, your comment about TG is a clear case of not AGF, and is snide. Not good. ( olive ( talk) 09:30, 16 January 2010 (UTC))
FWIW, I've never felt that this song had much relevance to MMY. I've never had any confidence in rumors of MMY's departures from his vows of celibacy, and I've never had any confidence in the accuracy of the Beatles' views (or those of other celebrity supporters from the 1960s) on anything having to do with MMY. My views have found some confirmation in the recent reversals of their former accusations by the surviving Beatles (not that the press has noticed). David spector ( talk) 19:35, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Will, if you're still working on this section, you may want to also include mention of Lennon's "The Maharishi Song" which blasts the Maharishi as a "not holy" (...) "sex maniac". Years later one of the victims of the Maharishi's lechery went public to a South African newspaper. Close assistants indicate that this is likely the 'tip of the iceberg' for this "life-long celibate", as a common file on his activities (called the Sexie Sadie file) demonstrates in a number of interviews with his former victims.-- Kala Bethere ( talk) 14:29, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Sources for "The Maharishi Song":
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help)The Everett book is probably self-published and so unacceptable. But the other two give plenty of detail. It's undoubtedly about the subject, and is no more obscure than “Spiritual Regeneration”, which was added recently. Will Beback talk 17:20, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Will to flesh out the Sexie Sadie reference it might be helpful to include some quotes from one of the Maharishi's former personal secretary, Conny Larsson, who in his book Behind the Mask of a Clown wrote "Maharishi’s sex life, for example, was extensive, to say the least. That a man in his position had a sex life I regarded as quite incongruous. As I had been very close to him I was often in charge of the key to his room, which he asked me on various occasions to hand over to one of the young ladies."-- Kala Bethere ( talk) 14:16, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
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help page).Yeah, there was a big hullabaloo about him trying to rape Mia Farrow or trying to get off with Mia Farrow and a few other women, things like that.
...I was blinking at his beard when suddenly I became aware of two surprisingly male, hairy arms going around me. I panicked, and shot up the stairs, apologizing all the way. I flew out into the open air, and ran as fast as I could to Prudy's room... I blurted out something about Maharishi's cave, and arms, and beard, and she said, It's an honor to be touched by a holy many after meditation, a tradition. Furthermore, at my level of consciousness, if Jesus Christ Himself had embraced me, I would have misinterpreted it.
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Yeah, there was a big hullabaloo about him trying to rape Mia Farrow or trying to get off with Mia Farrow and a few other women, things like that.
...I was blinking at his beard when suddenly I became aware of two surprisingly male, hairy arms going around me. I panicked, and shot up the stairs, apologizing all the way. I flew out into the open air, and ran as fast as I could to Prudy's room... I blurted out something about Maharishi's cave, and arms, and beard, and she said, It's an honor to be touched by a holy many after meditation, a tradition. Furthermore, at my level of consciousness, if Jesus Christ Himself had embraced me, I would have misinterpreted it.
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