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Is there any way to change the head-word ? It is spelt wrongly -- I have corrected other mispelt occurences in this and other entries.-- Stephen Hodge 17:25, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The only form I can find in Monier-Williams' Sanskrit dictionary is mahāsāṃghika, so dropping the diacritics from that, I'm moving the article to Mahasamghika. Angr ( talk • contribs) 20:24, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I just did some major editing on this article. At least the section headings will be useful. At this stage I have not provided many direct references, partly because I don't have all the books yet, and partly because since I haven't read them all I'm not sure how to summarise and evaluate what they say succinctly. The list in the bibliography which begins "This article should also reference these in the future..." is the ones I don't have yet. So this is just a preliminary and provisional improvement. According to BS's research the association between the Mahasanghikas and the bad Mahadeva (there are probably at least two Mahadevas) is almost certainly a spurious sectarian smear-campaign, and further may have nothing to do with the Mahasanghikas. The Location sub-heading obviously needs expanding, I can't imagine it could really be this simple and uncontraversial!
--
Bhikkhu Santi
22:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
The opening section of this article states: "It split from the Sthaviravāda (Elders) school". This suggests a pro-Sthavira stance which is intrinsically illogical. If the Mahasamghika school was, as its name states, the "Great[er] sangha", how can the majority split from a minority. It should be the other way around: the followers of the Sthaviravada were the ones who split from the majority. Moreover, it is only later Theravadin accounts which suggest that the Mahasanghikas caused the split. According to non-Sthaviravada sources including the Mahasanghika Vinaya, the Mahasanghikas were the conservative, traditionalist grouping, while the Sthaviravadins were a revisionist group who wanted to make the Vinaya even stricter in the same spirit as Devadatta is reported to have wished during the lifetime of the Buddha. Some of this should be reflected in the opening section.-- Stephen Hodge 03:08, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Implying that one side split or forked out from the Sangha is probably not NPOV. So why just say Sangha was split into two. FWBOarticle
-- Bhikkhu Santi 23:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
As a layperson, may I add that when looking at the 2nd Council Dhammawiki: https://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Second_Buddhist_council The list of concerns suggests Mahayana 'reforms' of austere practices followed by present day Theravadins such as avoiding gold and eating after noon, as far as I am aware. So it makes no sense to say Theravadins then were advocating these as 'additions' to Vinaya. Therefore the claim that Theravadin Vinaya is preceded by Mahasangika should at least be qualified, or withdrawn. As it stands, that part of the article appears to be misleading (or is it the Dhammawiki?). with respect, BD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.181.245.55 ( talk) 08:44, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
"and also asserted that the historical Buddha was a manifestation of a transhistorical Buddha, and phenomena are illusory and empty.
The Mahasamghaka are often regarded as one of the sources of Mahāyāna doctrines."
Sorry but I invoke verifiability policy. The above part could be fanciful historical revisionism. FWBOarticle
There's a good looking section on Mahasanghika doctrines in Paul Williams' intro to Buddhism, and probably more in his other books. From what I remember of skimming that section, it seems the Mahasamghikas did not all believe in Lokuttaravada, only the Mahasamghika-Lokuttaravadins, and also the detailed meaning of 'lokuttaravada' is uncertain but probably not the same as the later Mahayana doctrines about the Trikaya. If anyone else has the book and has time, please read that section and input the ideas there briefly here. Thanks. -- Bhikkhu Santi 22:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
"The Mahāsāṃghikas differed from the elders in including lay practitioners and non-enlightened monks at the communal meetings which constituted the governmental body for each saṃgha, allowing monks to use gold and silver and eat twice a day."
As far as I am knowledgeable about the Theravadin Pali Scriptures, most of the these statements are wrong, but if Stephen Hodge has access to the Mahasamghika Vinaya he could come up with som evidence to corroborate these stamenents. I have heard that the Vinayas differ very little between the early buddhist schools; I would be very interested in the Nisaggiya Pacittiyas on using/receiving money in the Mahasanghika Vinaya. Are they there? In the Theravadin Suttapitaka there is some mention of the unsuitability of money for monks, also. So this would be another interesting thing: are these Suttas present in the Mahasanghika Suttapitaka also in the same form? I have the following points on these statements:
Greetings, Sacca 07:10, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi Sacca, again. As far as I know, none of those statements are true of the Mahasanghikas -- definitely not the gold/silver/money item. I am coincidentally getting a paper by Nattier & Prebish covering current scholarly views regarding the Mahasanghikas -- generally, the Theravadin accounts are slanderous.-- Stephen Hodge 00:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
PS: I do have access to the MahaS Vinaya: it covers hundreds of pages of untranslated Chinese.-- Stephen Hodge 00:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
"The Mahāsāṃghikas differed from the elders in including lay practitioners and non-enlightened monks at the communal meetings which constituted the governmental body for each saṃgha, allowing monks to use gold and silver and eat twice a day."
"When exactly the Mahasanghikas and the Sthaviras did split is unclear, but it must have been some time between the Vaishali Council and the Third Council." (Stephen.)
Also, btw, this description of the yebhuyyasika procedure is wrong: "Later this can become majority-based (if unanimity turn out to be reall impossible - as happened during the Second Buddhist Council), and even then both kins of monks both have just one vote." The yebhuyyasika (majority) procedure is not democratic, in the sense that the verdict of the majority is only valid if it agrees with Dhamma-Vinaya. The purpose of the procedure according to the Pali is in order to convince (saññapetāya) all the monks, and is particular suitable (acc. to the Parivara) when many of the monks are ignorant but sincere and will follow the verdict of the majority; but the Vinaya is extremely emphatic that this procedure should only be used when the 'verdict' of the majority will be correct according to Dhamma-Vinaya and the remainder of the monks will accept it. Otherwise the issue would be unresolved and that would either be or probably soon become a schism. I say "be or become" because I'm not totally sure yet how to make sense of the two descriptions of at what point a schism formally occurs in the Vinaya. -- Bhikkhu Santi 23:54, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Stephen, Bhikkhu Santi (now Kester) et al.: I haven't made any changes to the article at this time, but just to make clear the answer to Stephen's question here: yes, I do disagree with the Nattier/Prebish thesis, this forms a major part of my 'Sects & Sectarianism'. The Nattier/Prebish thesis is based on an unreliable reading of an English translation of a French paraphrase of one paragraph, taken entirely out of context, of a poor Chinese translation of a (probably) difficult and obscure Hybrid Sanskrit original. In fact I believe all the accounts of schism that are dated pre-Asoka are unreliable, basically sectarian propaganda.
The main reasons: 1. There are no sects mentioned in the Ashokan inscriptions. 2. The accounts of pre-Asoka schisms are all internally implausible, incoherent and contradict each other. 3. The Ashokan literature generally does not mention sects. 4. The prose history offered by the Samantapasadika/Sudassanavinayavibhasa is more plausible than the other accounts, agrees with the northern traditions as far as the evidence leads us (e.g. Madhyantika's mission to Kasmir; the expulsion of schismatic monks mentioned in the Mahasanghika Vinaya), and in addition is confirmed by archeological evidence ('Schism' edicts, Sanci inscriptions). This account, which includes the story of the 'Third Council', does not mention any schisms or existence of schools.
I would therefore generally agree with the Sariputrapariprccha's timeframe for the schism: a few generations after Ashoka. Passages to this effect are found elsewhere in the northern literature, e.g. attributing the schisms to Upagupta's disciples. Full details in S&S!
Another issue, where I also disagree with Prebish, is the supposedly archaic nature of the Mahasanghika Vinaya. Attractive as this may be, the basis for this thesis is pretty much non-existent, and several of the authorities quoted by Prebish actually argue the opposite point of view. Details at http://sectsandsectarianism.googlepages.com/mahasanghika-theearliestvinaya%3F Sujato ( talk) 02:25, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Bhikkhu Santi 21:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi, all. I edited the article for consistency and spelling. I was also wondering if it were possible to use a word other than "recension" in the introductory paragraphs, as it's quite an obscure word outside of religious contexts. I understand that it might be English Buddhist canon to use the word, but if so, it should (I think) be defined/explained. Though I understand the word, I don't feel comfortable defining it in the context of Buddhist history. Thanks -- Storkk 20:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I see on 16:36, 26 April 2006 the diacrits for this article's title word were changed from Mahāsaṃghika to Mahāsāṃghika. Since this word is then translated into "Great[er]-Community," I was wondering if this diacrit change was correct. I then checked the following on-line resources:
So, what would be the basis for our not undoing the aforementioned change -- or at least for our not including the old spelling as primary and the new spelling as secondary? Thanks for any confirmation or education! Larry Rosenfeld ( talk) 05:37, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
P.S. the existing WP article Early Buddhist schools also spells the term Mahāsaṃghika.
I think the first spelling is the only correct one. Greetings, Sacca 12:13, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm admittedly not a Sanskritist, but doesn't the Nagari currently read "Mahāsāṃghaki" rather than "Mahāsāṃghika"? Natalie indeed 00:08, 25 September 2007 (UTC)natalie
If it's in Pāli, Mahāsaṃghika is correct. If it spells as Mahāsāṃghika, then it would be against the rule of the Pāli language. It shouldn't be a long vowel before 'ṃ' or 'ṅ'.
Buddhosavaka ( talk) 20:25, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
According to the Sanskrit Pratimoksa Sutra of MahaSamgikas discovered by Rahula Sankrtyayana in Tibet in 1934 and translated into English by Charles S. Prebish (Buddhist Monastic Discipline: The sanskrit Pratimoksa Sutras of the Mahasamghikas and Mulasarvastivadins by Charles S. Prebish, Motilal Banarsidass Publishers Pvt.Ltd, Delhi, 1996), all its VInaya rules except the 75 Sekhiya rules of training are exactly the same as the Theravada. Similarly, according to Buddhist Monks and Monasteries in India (Page 79) by Sukumar Dutt. , Frauwallner, who made a study of the similarities and divergernces of the vinaya of the six schoold, namely: Theravada, mahasanghika, Mula-sarvastivada, Mahisasaka, Dharmagupta and Sarvastivada, concluded: "We can see at once that the agreement of the text reaches deep into particulars"
That means that the Schism is not resulted from the differences in Vinaya, which also meant that the 2nd Council was closed and the matter was resolved.
According to Buddhist Sects in India by Nalinaksha Dutt. Motilal Banarsidass, 2nd Edition, Delhi (1978), page 28, the schism was caused by the founder of Mahasanghika, known as Mahadeva who put forward his 5 theories about arahants. It was due to the disagreements to this 5 theories that lead to the Schism.
Buddhosavaka ( talk) 22:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
The following bibliography has existed on the Mahasamghika page for quite a long time, and nobody has contributed much (if anything) using these works as reference. I am moving them to the talking page now, as they fill up a lot of room in the article that would be better used for content. They may still be referenced on this page. Tengu800 ( talk) 11:41, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
"Arya-Mahasamghika-Lokuttaravadin Bhiksuni-Vinaya"; edited by Gustav Roth, 1970.
Abhisamacarikadharma of the Mahasamghika-Lokottaravadins (input by Abhisamacarika-Dharma Study Group, Taisho University); GRETIL Archive http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil/1_sanskr/4_rellit/buddh/abhisdhu.htm
Mahasamghika and Mahasamghika-Lokuttaravadin Vinayas in Chinese translation; CBETA Taisho digital edition.
"The Earliest Vinaya and the Beginnings of Buddhist Literature"; Frauwallner, Serie Orientale Roma, 8. Rome: Istituto Italiano per il Medio ed Estremo Oriente.
"Vinaya-Matrka - Mother of the Monastic Codes, or Just Another Set of Lists? A Response to Frauwallner's Handling of the Mahasamghika Vinaya"; Shayne Clarke. Indo-Iranian Journal 47: 77-120, 2004.
"Sects and Sectarianism"; Bhikkhu Sujato, forthcoming.
"Researches on Bhikkhuni Sanghadisesa Three"; Bhikkhu Santi, forthcoming.
"Schism, Harmony and Communion"; Bhikkhu Santi, forthcoming.
"A Survey of Vinaya Literature"; Charles Prebish. Originally, Volume I of The Dharma Lamp Series. Taipei, Taiwan: Jin Luen Publishing House, 1994, 157 pages. Now published by Curzon Press.
"The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism"; Choong Mun-Keat. (Contains an account of Master Yin-Shun's theory that the Samyukt'Agama is the oldest collection, by a student of Prof. Rod Bucknell.)
"History of Mindfulness"; Bhikkhu Sujato, 2006. (Gives further evidence for the Anga-theory of Master Yin-Shun and the theory that the Samyukta-/ Samyutta- is the oldest organising principle.)
In the future, this article should also refer to:
"Buddhist Monastic Discipline: The Sanskrit Pratimoksa Sutras of the Mahasamghikas and Mulasarvastivadins"; Charles Prebish. Volume I of the Institute for Advanced Studies of World Religions Series. University Park: The Pennsylvania State University Press, 1975, 156 pages. First Indian Edition, Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1996. (This is only a translation of a small part of the Vinayas, on its own it is nearly useless.)
"Mahasamghika Origins: The Beginnings of Buddhist Sectarianism"; Charles Prebish and Janice J. Nattier. History of Religions , 16, 3 (February, 1977), 237-272.
"The Pratimoksa Puzzle: Fact Versus Fantasy"; Charles Prebish. Journal of the American Oriental Society , 94, 2 (April-June, 1974), 168-176.
"A Review of Scholarship on the Buddhist Councils"; Charles Prebish. Journal of Asian Studies, XXXIII, 2 (February, 1974), 239-254.
"Theories Concerning the Skandhaka: An Appraisal"; Charles Prebish Journal of Asian Studies, XXXII, 4 (August, 1973), 669-678.
"Saiksa-dharmas Revisited: Further Considerations of Mahasamghika Origins"; Charles Prebish. History of Religions , 35, 3 (February, 1996), 258-270.
I despair of getting involved in editing wikipedia generally, but this is absurd! You can't just remove the bibliography section because you think it takes up space!! Anyone who's bothered to read this far is likely to want references, and the subject is about as controversial as it gets in Buddhist studies, so a big list of references is essential. I did one of the first big edits on this page years ago when I was Bhikkhu Santi (I forgot but just re-read it and was surprised how familiar some sections sounded, then looked at the talk page and saw I was here before! (pubbenivesatianusarana! ;)). It would take a lot more work to actually link specific points from the article to each bibliography entry, but they are all relevant and what the article is based on. Sects & Sectarianism by Bhikkhu Sujato is now published. The two by me (forthcoming) have been shelved indefinitely, so remove them, but the published references should stay. Kester ratcliff ( talk) 19:03, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
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Is there any way to change the head-word ? It is spelt wrongly -- I have corrected other mispelt occurences in this and other entries.-- Stephen Hodge 17:25, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The only form I can find in Monier-Williams' Sanskrit dictionary is mahāsāṃghika, so dropping the diacritics from that, I'm moving the article to Mahasamghika. Angr ( talk • contribs) 20:24, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I just did some major editing on this article. At least the section headings will be useful. At this stage I have not provided many direct references, partly because I don't have all the books yet, and partly because since I haven't read them all I'm not sure how to summarise and evaluate what they say succinctly. The list in the bibliography which begins "This article should also reference these in the future..." is the ones I don't have yet. So this is just a preliminary and provisional improvement. According to BS's research the association between the Mahasanghikas and the bad Mahadeva (there are probably at least two Mahadevas) is almost certainly a spurious sectarian smear-campaign, and further may have nothing to do with the Mahasanghikas. The Location sub-heading obviously needs expanding, I can't imagine it could really be this simple and uncontraversial!
--
Bhikkhu Santi
22:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
The opening section of this article states: "It split from the Sthaviravāda (Elders) school". This suggests a pro-Sthavira stance which is intrinsically illogical. If the Mahasamghika school was, as its name states, the "Great[er] sangha", how can the majority split from a minority. It should be the other way around: the followers of the Sthaviravada were the ones who split from the majority. Moreover, it is only later Theravadin accounts which suggest that the Mahasanghikas caused the split. According to non-Sthaviravada sources including the Mahasanghika Vinaya, the Mahasanghikas were the conservative, traditionalist grouping, while the Sthaviravadins were a revisionist group who wanted to make the Vinaya even stricter in the same spirit as Devadatta is reported to have wished during the lifetime of the Buddha. Some of this should be reflected in the opening section.-- Stephen Hodge 03:08, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Implying that one side split or forked out from the Sangha is probably not NPOV. So why just say Sangha was split into two. FWBOarticle
-- Bhikkhu Santi 23:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
As a layperson, may I add that when looking at the 2nd Council Dhammawiki: https://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Second_Buddhist_council The list of concerns suggests Mahayana 'reforms' of austere practices followed by present day Theravadins such as avoiding gold and eating after noon, as far as I am aware. So it makes no sense to say Theravadins then were advocating these as 'additions' to Vinaya. Therefore the claim that Theravadin Vinaya is preceded by Mahasangika should at least be qualified, or withdrawn. As it stands, that part of the article appears to be misleading (or is it the Dhammawiki?). with respect, BD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.181.245.55 ( talk) 08:44, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
"and also asserted that the historical Buddha was a manifestation of a transhistorical Buddha, and phenomena are illusory and empty.
The Mahasamghaka are often regarded as one of the sources of Mahāyāna doctrines."
Sorry but I invoke verifiability policy. The above part could be fanciful historical revisionism. FWBOarticle
There's a good looking section on Mahasanghika doctrines in Paul Williams' intro to Buddhism, and probably more in his other books. From what I remember of skimming that section, it seems the Mahasamghikas did not all believe in Lokuttaravada, only the Mahasamghika-Lokuttaravadins, and also the detailed meaning of 'lokuttaravada' is uncertain but probably not the same as the later Mahayana doctrines about the Trikaya. If anyone else has the book and has time, please read that section and input the ideas there briefly here. Thanks. -- Bhikkhu Santi 22:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
"The Mahāsāṃghikas differed from the elders in including lay practitioners and non-enlightened monks at the communal meetings which constituted the governmental body for each saṃgha, allowing monks to use gold and silver and eat twice a day."
As far as I am knowledgeable about the Theravadin Pali Scriptures, most of the these statements are wrong, but if Stephen Hodge has access to the Mahasamghika Vinaya he could come up with som evidence to corroborate these stamenents. I have heard that the Vinayas differ very little between the early buddhist schools; I would be very interested in the Nisaggiya Pacittiyas on using/receiving money in the Mahasanghika Vinaya. Are they there? In the Theravadin Suttapitaka there is some mention of the unsuitability of money for monks, also. So this would be another interesting thing: are these Suttas present in the Mahasanghika Suttapitaka also in the same form? I have the following points on these statements:
Greetings, Sacca 07:10, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi Sacca, again. As far as I know, none of those statements are true of the Mahasanghikas -- definitely not the gold/silver/money item. I am coincidentally getting a paper by Nattier & Prebish covering current scholarly views regarding the Mahasanghikas -- generally, the Theravadin accounts are slanderous.-- Stephen Hodge 00:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
PS: I do have access to the MahaS Vinaya: it covers hundreds of pages of untranslated Chinese.-- Stephen Hodge 00:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
"The Mahāsāṃghikas differed from the elders in including lay practitioners and non-enlightened monks at the communal meetings which constituted the governmental body for each saṃgha, allowing monks to use gold and silver and eat twice a day."
"When exactly the Mahasanghikas and the Sthaviras did split is unclear, but it must have been some time between the Vaishali Council and the Third Council." (Stephen.)
Also, btw, this description of the yebhuyyasika procedure is wrong: "Later this can become majority-based (if unanimity turn out to be reall impossible - as happened during the Second Buddhist Council), and even then both kins of monks both have just one vote." The yebhuyyasika (majority) procedure is not democratic, in the sense that the verdict of the majority is only valid if it agrees with Dhamma-Vinaya. The purpose of the procedure according to the Pali is in order to convince (saññapetāya) all the monks, and is particular suitable (acc. to the Parivara) when many of the monks are ignorant but sincere and will follow the verdict of the majority; but the Vinaya is extremely emphatic that this procedure should only be used when the 'verdict' of the majority will be correct according to Dhamma-Vinaya and the remainder of the monks will accept it. Otherwise the issue would be unresolved and that would either be or probably soon become a schism. I say "be or become" because I'm not totally sure yet how to make sense of the two descriptions of at what point a schism formally occurs in the Vinaya. -- Bhikkhu Santi 23:54, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Stephen, Bhikkhu Santi (now Kester) et al.: I haven't made any changes to the article at this time, but just to make clear the answer to Stephen's question here: yes, I do disagree with the Nattier/Prebish thesis, this forms a major part of my 'Sects & Sectarianism'. The Nattier/Prebish thesis is based on an unreliable reading of an English translation of a French paraphrase of one paragraph, taken entirely out of context, of a poor Chinese translation of a (probably) difficult and obscure Hybrid Sanskrit original. In fact I believe all the accounts of schism that are dated pre-Asoka are unreliable, basically sectarian propaganda.
The main reasons: 1. There are no sects mentioned in the Ashokan inscriptions. 2. The accounts of pre-Asoka schisms are all internally implausible, incoherent and contradict each other. 3. The Ashokan literature generally does not mention sects. 4. The prose history offered by the Samantapasadika/Sudassanavinayavibhasa is more plausible than the other accounts, agrees with the northern traditions as far as the evidence leads us (e.g. Madhyantika's mission to Kasmir; the expulsion of schismatic monks mentioned in the Mahasanghika Vinaya), and in addition is confirmed by archeological evidence ('Schism' edicts, Sanci inscriptions). This account, which includes the story of the 'Third Council', does not mention any schisms or existence of schools.
I would therefore generally agree with the Sariputrapariprccha's timeframe for the schism: a few generations after Ashoka. Passages to this effect are found elsewhere in the northern literature, e.g. attributing the schisms to Upagupta's disciples. Full details in S&S!
Another issue, where I also disagree with Prebish, is the supposedly archaic nature of the Mahasanghika Vinaya. Attractive as this may be, the basis for this thesis is pretty much non-existent, and several of the authorities quoted by Prebish actually argue the opposite point of view. Details at http://sectsandsectarianism.googlepages.com/mahasanghika-theearliestvinaya%3F Sujato ( talk) 02:25, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Bhikkhu Santi 21:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi, all. I edited the article for consistency and spelling. I was also wondering if it were possible to use a word other than "recension" in the introductory paragraphs, as it's quite an obscure word outside of religious contexts. I understand that it might be English Buddhist canon to use the word, but if so, it should (I think) be defined/explained. Though I understand the word, I don't feel comfortable defining it in the context of Buddhist history. Thanks -- Storkk 20:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I see on 16:36, 26 April 2006 the diacrits for this article's title word were changed from Mahāsaṃghika to Mahāsāṃghika. Since this word is then translated into "Great[er]-Community," I was wondering if this diacrit change was correct. I then checked the following on-line resources:
So, what would be the basis for our not undoing the aforementioned change -- or at least for our not including the old spelling as primary and the new spelling as secondary? Thanks for any confirmation or education! Larry Rosenfeld ( talk) 05:37, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
P.S. the existing WP article Early Buddhist schools also spells the term Mahāsaṃghika.
I think the first spelling is the only correct one. Greetings, Sacca 12:13, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm admittedly not a Sanskritist, but doesn't the Nagari currently read "Mahāsāṃghaki" rather than "Mahāsāṃghika"? Natalie indeed 00:08, 25 September 2007 (UTC)natalie
If it's in Pāli, Mahāsaṃghika is correct. If it spells as Mahāsāṃghika, then it would be against the rule of the Pāli language. It shouldn't be a long vowel before 'ṃ' or 'ṅ'.
Buddhosavaka ( talk) 20:25, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
According to the Sanskrit Pratimoksa Sutra of MahaSamgikas discovered by Rahula Sankrtyayana in Tibet in 1934 and translated into English by Charles S. Prebish (Buddhist Monastic Discipline: The sanskrit Pratimoksa Sutras of the Mahasamghikas and Mulasarvastivadins by Charles S. Prebish, Motilal Banarsidass Publishers Pvt.Ltd, Delhi, 1996), all its VInaya rules except the 75 Sekhiya rules of training are exactly the same as the Theravada. Similarly, according to Buddhist Monks and Monasteries in India (Page 79) by Sukumar Dutt. , Frauwallner, who made a study of the similarities and divergernces of the vinaya of the six schoold, namely: Theravada, mahasanghika, Mula-sarvastivada, Mahisasaka, Dharmagupta and Sarvastivada, concluded: "We can see at once that the agreement of the text reaches deep into particulars"
That means that the Schism is not resulted from the differences in Vinaya, which also meant that the 2nd Council was closed and the matter was resolved.
According to Buddhist Sects in India by Nalinaksha Dutt. Motilal Banarsidass, 2nd Edition, Delhi (1978), page 28, the schism was caused by the founder of Mahasanghika, known as Mahadeva who put forward his 5 theories about arahants. It was due to the disagreements to this 5 theories that lead to the Schism.
Buddhosavaka ( talk) 22:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
The following bibliography has existed on the Mahasamghika page for quite a long time, and nobody has contributed much (if anything) using these works as reference. I am moving them to the talking page now, as they fill up a lot of room in the article that would be better used for content. They may still be referenced on this page. Tengu800 ( talk) 11:41, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
"Arya-Mahasamghika-Lokuttaravadin Bhiksuni-Vinaya"; edited by Gustav Roth, 1970.
Abhisamacarikadharma of the Mahasamghika-Lokottaravadins (input by Abhisamacarika-Dharma Study Group, Taisho University); GRETIL Archive http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil/1_sanskr/4_rellit/buddh/abhisdhu.htm
Mahasamghika and Mahasamghika-Lokuttaravadin Vinayas in Chinese translation; CBETA Taisho digital edition.
"The Earliest Vinaya and the Beginnings of Buddhist Literature"; Frauwallner, Serie Orientale Roma, 8. Rome: Istituto Italiano per il Medio ed Estremo Oriente.
"Vinaya-Matrka - Mother of the Monastic Codes, or Just Another Set of Lists? A Response to Frauwallner's Handling of the Mahasamghika Vinaya"; Shayne Clarke. Indo-Iranian Journal 47: 77-120, 2004.
"Sects and Sectarianism"; Bhikkhu Sujato, forthcoming.
"Researches on Bhikkhuni Sanghadisesa Three"; Bhikkhu Santi, forthcoming.
"Schism, Harmony and Communion"; Bhikkhu Santi, forthcoming.
"A Survey of Vinaya Literature"; Charles Prebish. Originally, Volume I of The Dharma Lamp Series. Taipei, Taiwan: Jin Luen Publishing House, 1994, 157 pages. Now published by Curzon Press.
"The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism"; Choong Mun-Keat. (Contains an account of Master Yin-Shun's theory that the Samyukt'Agama is the oldest collection, by a student of Prof. Rod Bucknell.)
"History of Mindfulness"; Bhikkhu Sujato, 2006. (Gives further evidence for the Anga-theory of Master Yin-Shun and the theory that the Samyukta-/ Samyutta- is the oldest organising principle.)
In the future, this article should also refer to:
"Buddhist Monastic Discipline: The Sanskrit Pratimoksa Sutras of the Mahasamghikas and Mulasarvastivadins"; Charles Prebish. Volume I of the Institute for Advanced Studies of World Religions Series. University Park: The Pennsylvania State University Press, 1975, 156 pages. First Indian Edition, Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1996. (This is only a translation of a small part of the Vinayas, on its own it is nearly useless.)
"Mahasamghika Origins: The Beginnings of Buddhist Sectarianism"; Charles Prebish and Janice J. Nattier. History of Religions , 16, 3 (February, 1977), 237-272.
"The Pratimoksa Puzzle: Fact Versus Fantasy"; Charles Prebish. Journal of the American Oriental Society , 94, 2 (April-June, 1974), 168-176.
"A Review of Scholarship on the Buddhist Councils"; Charles Prebish. Journal of Asian Studies, XXXIII, 2 (February, 1974), 239-254.
"Theories Concerning the Skandhaka: An Appraisal"; Charles Prebish Journal of Asian Studies, XXXII, 4 (August, 1973), 669-678.
"Saiksa-dharmas Revisited: Further Considerations of Mahasamghika Origins"; Charles Prebish. History of Religions , 35, 3 (February, 1996), 258-270.
I despair of getting involved in editing wikipedia generally, but this is absurd! You can't just remove the bibliography section because you think it takes up space!! Anyone who's bothered to read this far is likely to want references, and the subject is about as controversial as it gets in Buddhist studies, so a big list of references is essential. I did one of the first big edits on this page years ago when I was Bhikkhu Santi (I forgot but just re-read it and was surprised how familiar some sections sounded, then looked at the talk page and saw I was here before! (pubbenivesatianusarana! ;)). It would take a lot more work to actually link specific points from the article to each bibliography entry, but they are all relevant and what the article is based on. Sects & Sectarianism by Bhikkhu Sujato is now published. The two by me (forthcoming) have been shelved indefinitely, so remove them, but the published references should stay. Kester ratcliff ( talk) 19:03, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
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