The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that in John Rutter's Latin Magnificat of 1990, the text of the second movement is a poem to Mary, "Of a Rose, a lovely Rose"?
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The article needs more citations in the Movements section. Mostly, as long as the text simply describes what is in the score, the citations can be just be the page ranges of the published score for each movement, added at the end of each paragraph, but there are a few observations (shrewd and correct, I have no doubt) that are
WP:OR unless backed by a citation:
"While Bach structured the first verses of the canticle…"
"reminiscent of Bach's treatment of the same text"
"with dotted rhythms reminiscent of the French overture"
Each statement that gives an opinion or comparison, rather than a plain description of what is in the score, needs a citation to some published
WP:RS opinion. What is in other WP articles such as BWV 243a is immaterial for this article, which must stand alone with its own references. Copy and paste refs from other articles, by all means, but you must ensure that all statements of opinion here are duly cited. Tim riley talk22:51, 3 October 2014 (UTC)reply
Thanks, that much I knew. How do I cite that the a French Ouverture is characterised by slow dotted rhythms (or a waltz by a triple meter)? I don't believe that saying the same feature appears here is an opinion. - How do I cite that in Bach's Magnificat, each verse is handled in at least one movement? Cite that score also? --
Gerda Arendt (
talk)
06:41, 4 October 2014 (UTC)reply
For the structure of the Bach score, yes, a citation to that score would be fine.
For the "reminiscent of…" phrase, if you change it to "similar to…" and again cite the Bach score, that will change a matter of opinion into a verifiable statement of fact.
For the French overture I consulted George Gow Waterman and James R. Anthony. "French overture." Grove Music Online. Oxford Music Online. Oxford University Press. Web. 4 Oct. 2014.
http://www.oxfordmusiconline.com/subscriber/article/grove/music/10210, which states, "The form combines a slow opening, marked by stately dotted rhythms and suspensions, with a lively fugal second section." I'd have added that reference for you, but I don't know sfn notes are done. This or any other
WP:RS to a description of the genre will be fine here. I don't think "reminiscent" will quite do. It is too personal a word – what makes you reminisce may not make me do so – and "on the lines of" or something like that would be safer. Tim riley talk08:29, 4 October 2014 (UTC)reply
Taken. I sourced the Bach structure to the free scores (which contain the manuscript). For the "Omnes", I looked at the Bach Ausgabe and found it (p 31), but can't read the old keys, so took the paper vocal score I actually looked at. What do you think? I hope I left my personal evalution behind ;) - Learning: I thought until you taught me that "reminds me of" means personal memory (erinnert mich an) while "is reminiscent of" would be an impersonal "erinnert an", - is there a term for that? --
Gerda Arendt (
talk)
09:27, 4 October 2014 (UTC)reply
"Reminiscent" is a tricky word. It has the overtone of "It reminds me of x and I assume everyone agrees with me" (even if nobody actually does agree) and so is somewhere between "erinnert mich an" and "erinnert an". That's the last of my quibbles, except to point out that the
Manual of Style asks for quotations in lead sections to have citations. I suppose this must apply even though you've cited them in the main text. A pity, but that seems to be the WP style. That apart:
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that in John Rutter's Latin Magnificat of 1990, the text of the second movement is a poem to Mary, "Of a Rose, a lovely Rose"?
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following
WikiProjects:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical music, which aims to improve, expand, copy edit, and maintain all articles related to
classical music, that are not covered by other classical music related projects. Please read the
guidelines for writing and maintaining articles. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the
project page for more details.Classical musicWikipedia:WikiProject Classical musicTemplate:WikiProject Classical musicClassical music articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChristianityWikipedia:WikiProject ChristianityTemplate:WikiProject ChristianityChristianity articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
United Kingdom on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject United KingdomUnited Kingdom articles
The article needs more citations in the Movements section. Mostly, as long as the text simply describes what is in the score, the citations can be just be the page ranges of the published score for each movement, added at the end of each paragraph, but there are a few observations (shrewd and correct, I have no doubt) that are
WP:OR unless backed by a citation:
"While Bach structured the first verses of the canticle…"
"reminiscent of Bach's treatment of the same text"
"with dotted rhythms reminiscent of the French overture"
Each statement that gives an opinion or comparison, rather than a plain description of what is in the score, needs a citation to some published
WP:RS opinion. What is in other WP articles such as BWV 243a is immaterial for this article, which must stand alone with its own references. Copy and paste refs from other articles, by all means, but you must ensure that all statements of opinion here are duly cited. Tim riley talk22:51, 3 October 2014 (UTC)reply
Thanks, that much I knew. How do I cite that the a French Ouverture is characterised by slow dotted rhythms (or a waltz by a triple meter)? I don't believe that saying the same feature appears here is an opinion. - How do I cite that in Bach's Magnificat, each verse is handled in at least one movement? Cite that score also? --
Gerda Arendt (
talk)
06:41, 4 October 2014 (UTC)reply
For the structure of the Bach score, yes, a citation to that score would be fine.
For the "reminiscent of…" phrase, if you change it to "similar to…" and again cite the Bach score, that will change a matter of opinion into a verifiable statement of fact.
For the French overture I consulted George Gow Waterman and James R. Anthony. "French overture." Grove Music Online. Oxford Music Online. Oxford University Press. Web. 4 Oct. 2014.
http://www.oxfordmusiconline.com/subscriber/article/grove/music/10210, which states, "The form combines a slow opening, marked by stately dotted rhythms and suspensions, with a lively fugal second section." I'd have added that reference for you, but I don't know sfn notes are done. This or any other
WP:RS to a description of the genre will be fine here. I don't think "reminiscent" will quite do. It is too personal a word – what makes you reminisce may not make me do so – and "on the lines of" or something like that would be safer. Tim riley talk08:29, 4 October 2014 (UTC)reply
Taken. I sourced the Bach structure to the free scores (which contain the manuscript). For the "Omnes", I looked at the Bach Ausgabe and found it (p 31), but can't read the old keys, so took the paper vocal score I actually looked at. What do you think? I hope I left my personal evalution behind ;) - Learning: I thought until you taught me that "reminds me of" means personal memory (erinnert mich an) while "is reminiscent of" would be an impersonal "erinnert an", - is there a term for that? --
Gerda Arendt (
talk)
09:27, 4 October 2014 (UTC)reply
"Reminiscent" is a tricky word. It has the overtone of "It reminds me of x and I assume everyone agrees with me" (even if nobody actually does agree) and so is somewhere between "erinnert mich an" and "erinnert an". That's the last of my quibbles, except to point out that the
Manual of Style asks for quotations in lead sections to have citations. I suppose this must apply even though you've cited them in the main text. A pity, but that seems to be the WP style. That apart: