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I have added a few lines under opinions. As it is clear that his recent booming career is also related to historical events (9/11, Iraq war) and his U turn on many issues (Israel, Palestine Integration and so on) I have detailed all of them in the same chapter. I have added referenced comments on his opinions from the deputy director of his previous newspaper, as his change of stances also evolved in a change of workplace. -- XPTN ( talk) 22:35, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Image:Magdi Allam.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 03:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
It's impossible to be secular and Muslim. Islamic law states that someone is only a muslim if they practice Islam. Islam isn't like Judaism where you can be orthodox/secular or athiest. To be a muslim you have to have two things. Faith and Action (doing what the Quran says). This guy fails both. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.69.39.0 ( talk) 03:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Judaism is an entirely separate situation; Jews are an ethnicity as well as a religion and one remains ethnically Jewish even if they convert to another religion. According to Rabbinical traditions, the child of a Jewish mother is considered to be (religiously) Jewish until they convert formally to some other religion. Also, when the Bosnian Muslims were "ethnically cleansed" solely because they were Muslims, they were killed whether they were atheists, skeptics or believers. They were killed because they were historically and culturally Islamic, even if they were not practicing every day. If Magdi Allam was raised as a Muslim and never converted to any other religion, he is (at least in the eyes of the Catholics) a lapsed Muslim who is a Muslim until conversion whether he currently practices or not. Besides, he may have used the moral structure of Islam to guide him even if he was not openly devout. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.163.28 ( talk) 10:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Islam isn't run by Catholic laws. Catholics can be lapsed. Muslims can't. In fact if a Muslim doesn't do what he is meant to be doing then from that moment on until he becomes a Practising muslim he's an atheist. Your right about Jews being an ethnicity and a religion. Islam isn't like that. It's a global religion which supersedes "culture". Islam IS your culture because it's more then a religon. It's a way of life because it governs what you do every single day. You have to follow that. This guy didn't. Let me give you an analogy. You can't have a non praticisng murder. Your either a murder or your not. Btw here is a good link. http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=4131&ln=eng&txt=practising It's about a "muslim" man who doesn't pray. They are clearly treating him has a non-muslim and all he did was ignore one of the Five Pillars (what all muslims must do). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.69.118.133 ( talk) 02:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a negative POV in the article; maybe it's weasel words ("incendiary," for one) being used. I can't put my finger on it, but it just doesn't look NPOV to me. I'm concerned that this article might go further down this road after the today's news of his conversion to Catholicism.
"He objects to allowing Muslims to have their own courts in matters of family law (a suggestion that was controversially deemed inevitable by the Archbishhop of Canterbury Rowan Williams)." Reworded this to make it more NPOV, I hope. -- Beth C. ( talk) 06:04, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
There do seem to be clear POV problems with this article. For example,
-- Bwwm ( talk) 00:47, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
-- Bwwm ( talk) 00:47, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
There are other problems:
The following sentences are taken from an article verbatim without being placed in quotation marks:
the fragrances, sounds, colors and flavors of his beloved Aunt Adreya's home and the streets of Naguib Mahfouz's Cairo - a colorful, pluralistic and tolerant city where girls wore miniskirts and boys sported Beatles haircuts.
This was the city where he was detained, interrogated and imprisoned at age 15 by the Muhabarat, the secret services, on suspicion of spying for Israel, because of his relationship with a Jewish girl, also 15 and "the first true love of his life." "The trauma of that interrogation at the Muhabarat barracks accompanied me until that day on Christmas Eve 1972, when I left Egypt to continue my studies in Italy."
Some of quotes which are presented as being verbatim quotes are in fact translations of Italian sources. They should not be presented as verbatim quotes.
-- Bwwm ( talk) 22:32, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Whoever is changing this article claiming that he converted from Coptic Christianity is vandalizing this article. Magdi himself says in his autobiography he was brought up as a Muslim to Muslim parents. I will give you the direct quotes in the hope that it will convince the vandalizer to stop vandalizing:
This is from an article here: http://www.danielpipes.org/article/4325] SelfEvidentTruths ( talk) 20:35, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
It's not simple enough to call your self a muslim in Islam. I have already explained why he isn't a muslim. The only reason why this is still up for discussion is because people want to see a muslim convert to Christianity has a strike against Islam. Well this is a bad example. Every year many muslims convert to other religions. Muslims who ARE actually muslims. Not those who call themselves a Muslim only because of his culture. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
79.69.27.240 (
talk)
20:04, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
this is a contentious issue so every statement must be backed by a source. please stop removing the links. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SelfEvidentTruths ( talk • contribs) 20:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Articles should have a logical structure that is easy to follow and not jump from one statement to another or from one period to another period without logic. It's clear Allam radically changed his opinions. From writing in a communist newspaper, and then a left-leaning newspaper, supporting integration of immigrants, supporting Palestinian rights - from all of this - to what he is advocating now. So the article must be structured logically to reflect this. Thus, the "opinion and stances" section must structured accordingly. If any Italian-speaking user would like to add quotes that prove and supplement either phase of his stances - please do so in the appropriate section. Please do try to find quotes or articles from him in his pre-2001 era, and then readers can see for themselves the transformation, contradiction, or whatever you want to call it. SelfEvidentTruths ( talk) 03:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Somebody has completely removed that section in the last hour or so ?!? -- XPTN ( talk) 21:42, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree with user talk:XPTN that the description of Allam's stances and writing style does not violate NPOV policy because there is no personal opinion in stating that a journalist writes in a very polemical style and makes extreme statements, as long as you quote those statements and also quote sources that have criticizedhim. And this article does both. It is simply pointing out undeniable facts that are easily verified. Also, the article compares his writings to his earlier period and such a comparison clearly shows not only a 180 degree turn, but also a much more extreme approach - one that is marked by making wholesale, general, and very negative statements against an ethnic group. Consider this: Had a famous journalist anywhere else suddenly started writing a statement such as this - "the root of evil is inherent in a Jewish religion that is physiologically violent and historically conflictive" - and trust me (I'm Jewish) that one can cherrypick ancient Jewish sources written in different eras to bring "proof" for that kind of statement - there is no doubt in my mind that Wikipedia would not only lablel this journalist "extremist," but also "inflammatory," "racist," and most probably also "anti-Semite." So, the descriptions used by XPTN are actually very toned-down and moderate, being extra-cautious and very fair to Allam. SelfEvidentTruths ( talk) 00:48, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
In my view, this article should consist mainly of what reliable secondary sources say about Allam. Few opinions on such a controversial person can be considered as really objective, so there has to be an adequate overview.
The rest would probably qualify as personal research. Selecting quotes from Allam's books and articles, in particular, would be a highly subjective exercise.
At present,the general tone of this article is quite negative, and more or less turns obsessively around the issue of Allam's mysterious change in political views Giordaano ( talk) 16:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
The relevant Wikipedia policies are found
[1] and
[2]. The particularly important elements are:
-- Bwwm ( talk) 21:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I have reread the whole article and have not found one instance of original research. Nor have I found any material that is unverified or unsourced. Allam is not a musician. He is a commentator whose sole claim to fame is his published opinions about various hot-button issues, the controversy he has stirred by those opinions, and his unique life story of Muslim-turned Catholic and progressive-turned-conservative journalist. Ignoring those opinions would defeat the whole purpose of having an entry in Wikipedia about him. It would be a great disservice to the readers, and a kind of blatant, unwarranted misrepresentation of well-known facts. Moreover, ignoring his opinions or cutting down the Opinions and Stances section would be in itself tantamount to POV, because it only shows that the editor would like to "hide" - for whatever reasons - those very things that Allam wants to be known for and is, factually speaking, known for. Nowhere does the article attempt to explain or comment about his opinions or his change of opinions, unless it's a verified quote from a public personality. There is no attempt to answer the "why" question - why did he change his opinions so drastically - which is the most interesting question about Allam. Likewise, there is no attempt whatsoever to evaluate his 180-degree change - each reader can read the verified quotes, which are organized in a structured way, and make his or her own private assessment. It is not our job as editors to make that call, and the article never, even once, makes that kind of judgment. If you are not sure that this is how articles about journalists are written on Wikipedia, I suggest you take a look at the famous NYT commentator Thomas Friedman. SelfEvidentTruths ( talk) 22:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Whoever was concerned with POV did not respond to any of the arguments (s)he had generated neither contributed to the article in a very long time. Can we just assume that the POV concern can be removed?-- XPTN ( talk) 23:27, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
the article partly abounds with adulation for the article's subject, partisan formulations, defamation of critics and omissions. the revision history shows that an IP from luxembourg made this edit a while ago.
in detail:
(the word "appeasement" was deleted in the meantime)
then we have this edit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Magdi_Allam&diff=next&oldid=409794512
again, w/o comment or reason.
if i haven't stated otherwise, all of these edits are still "included" in the article. it's necessary reshaping the text, in a more neutral way. i suggest the creation of a section for the criticism, which was deleted or which is found now in inappropriate places (headings).
-- Severino ( talk) 20:48, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
now that the worst bias has been removed, there are still NPOV concerns; but if there's consensus, the neutrality tag can NOW be removed.-- Severino ( talk) 16:27, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
On the 25 March 2013, he publicly announced his abandonment of the Catholic Church:
Jacopo Werther iγ∂ψ=mψ 12:41, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
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This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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I have added a few lines under opinions. As it is clear that his recent booming career is also related to historical events (9/11, Iraq war) and his U turn on many issues (Israel, Palestine Integration and so on) I have detailed all of them in the same chapter. I have added referenced comments on his opinions from the deputy director of his previous newspaper, as his change of stances also evolved in a change of workplace. -- XPTN ( talk) 22:35, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Image:Magdi Allam.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 03:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
It's impossible to be secular and Muslim. Islamic law states that someone is only a muslim if they practice Islam. Islam isn't like Judaism where you can be orthodox/secular or athiest. To be a muslim you have to have two things. Faith and Action (doing what the Quran says). This guy fails both. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.69.39.0 ( talk) 03:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Judaism is an entirely separate situation; Jews are an ethnicity as well as a religion and one remains ethnically Jewish even if they convert to another religion. According to Rabbinical traditions, the child of a Jewish mother is considered to be (religiously) Jewish until they convert formally to some other religion. Also, when the Bosnian Muslims were "ethnically cleansed" solely because they were Muslims, they were killed whether they were atheists, skeptics or believers. They were killed because they were historically and culturally Islamic, even if they were not practicing every day. If Magdi Allam was raised as a Muslim and never converted to any other religion, he is (at least in the eyes of the Catholics) a lapsed Muslim who is a Muslim until conversion whether he currently practices or not. Besides, he may have used the moral structure of Islam to guide him even if he was not openly devout. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.163.28 ( talk) 10:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Islam isn't run by Catholic laws. Catholics can be lapsed. Muslims can't. In fact if a Muslim doesn't do what he is meant to be doing then from that moment on until he becomes a Practising muslim he's an atheist. Your right about Jews being an ethnicity and a religion. Islam isn't like that. It's a global religion which supersedes "culture". Islam IS your culture because it's more then a religon. It's a way of life because it governs what you do every single day. You have to follow that. This guy didn't. Let me give you an analogy. You can't have a non praticisng murder. Your either a murder or your not. Btw here is a good link. http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=4131&ln=eng&txt=practising It's about a "muslim" man who doesn't pray. They are clearly treating him has a non-muslim and all he did was ignore one of the Five Pillars (what all muslims must do). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.69.118.133 ( talk) 02:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a negative POV in the article; maybe it's weasel words ("incendiary," for one) being used. I can't put my finger on it, but it just doesn't look NPOV to me. I'm concerned that this article might go further down this road after the today's news of his conversion to Catholicism.
"He objects to allowing Muslims to have their own courts in matters of family law (a suggestion that was controversially deemed inevitable by the Archbishhop of Canterbury Rowan Williams)." Reworded this to make it more NPOV, I hope. -- Beth C. ( talk) 06:04, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
There do seem to be clear POV problems with this article. For example,
-- Bwwm ( talk) 00:47, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
-- Bwwm ( talk) 00:47, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
There are other problems:
The following sentences are taken from an article verbatim without being placed in quotation marks:
the fragrances, sounds, colors and flavors of his beloved Aunt Adreya's home and the streets of Naguib Mahfouz's Cairo - a colorful, pluralistic and tolerant city where girls wore miniskirts and boys sported Beatles haircuts.
This was the city where he was detained, interrogated and imprisoned at age 15 by the Muhabarat, the secret services, on suspicion of spying for Israel, because of his relationship with a Jewish girl, also 15 and "the first true love of his life." "The trauma of that interrogation at the Muhabarat barracks accompanied me until that day on Christmas Eve 1972, when I left Egypt to continue my studies in Italy."
Some of quotes which are presented as being verbatim quotes are in fact translations of Italian sources. They should not be presented as verbatim quotes.
-- Bwwm ( talk) 22:32, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Whoever is changing this article claiming that he converted from Coptic Christianity is vandalizing this article. Magdi himself says in his autobiography he was brought up as a Muslim to Muslim parents. I will give you the direct quotes in the hope that it will convince the vandalizer to stop vandalizing:
This is from an article here: http://www.danielpipes.org/article/4325] SelfEvidentTruths ( talk) 20:35, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
It's not simple enough to call your self a muslim in Islam. I have already explained why he isn't a muslim. The only reason why this is still up for discussion is because people want to see a muslim convert to Christianity has a strike against Islam. Well this is a bad example. Every year many muslims convert to other religions. Muslims who ARE actually muslims. Not those who call themselves a Muslim only because of his culture. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
79.69.27.240 (
talk)
20:04, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
this is a contentious issue so every statement must be backed by a source. please stop removing the links. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SelfEvidentTruths ( talk • contribs) 20:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Articles should have a logical structure that is easy to follow and not jump from one statement to another or from one period to another period without logic. It's clear Allam radically changed his opinions. From writing in a communist newspaper, and then a left-leaning newspaper, supporting integration of immigrants, supporting Palestinian rights - from all of this - to what he is advocating now. So the article must be structured logically to reflect this. Thus, the "opinion and stances" section must structured accordingly. If any Italian-speaking user would like to add quotes that prove and supplement either phase of his stances - please do so in the appropriate section. Please do try to find quotes or articles from him in his pre-2001 era, and then readers can see for themselves the transformation, contradiction, or whatever you want to call it. SelfEvidentTruths ( talk) 03:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Somebody has completely removed that section in the last hour or so ?!? -- XPTN ( talk) 21:42, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree with user talk:XPTN that the description of Allam's stances and writing style does not violate NPOV policy because there is no personal opinion in stating that a journalist writes in a very polemical style and makes extreme statements, as long as you quote those statements and also quote sources that have criticizedhim. And this article does both. It is simply pointing out undeniable facts that are easily verified. Also, the article compares his writings to his earlier period and such a comparison clearly shows not only a 180 degree turn, but also a much more extreme approach - one that is marked by making wholesale, general, and very negative statements against an ethnic group. Consider this: Had a famous journalist anywhere else suddenly started writing a statement such as this - "the root of evil is inherent in a Jewish religion that is physiologically violent and historically conflictive" - and trust me (I'm Jewish) that one can cherrypick ancient Jewish sources written in different eras to bring "proof" for that kind of statement - there is no doubt in my mind that Wikipedia would not only lablel this journalist "extremist," but also "inflammatory," "racist," and most probably also "anti-Semite." So, the descriptions used by XPTN are actually very toned-down and moderate, being extra-cautious and very fair to Allam. SelfEvidentTruths ( talk) 00:48, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
In my view, this article should consist mainly of what reliable secondary sources say about Allam. Few opinions on such a controversial person can be considered as really objective, so there has to be an adequate overview.
The rest would probably qualify as personal research. Selecting quotes from Allam's books and articles, in particular, would be a highly subjective exercise.
At present,the general tone of this article is quite negative, and more or less turns obsessively around the issue of Allam's mysterious change in political views Giordaano ( talk) 16:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
The relevant Wikipedia policies are found
[1] and
[2]. The particularly important elements are:
-- Bwwm ( talk) 21:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I have reread the whole article and have not found one instance of original research. Nor have I found any material that is unverified or unsourced. Allam is not a musician. He is a commentator whose sole claim to fame is his published opinions about various hot-button issues, the controversy he has stirred by those opinions, and his unique life story of Muslim-turned Catholic and progressive-turned-conservative journalist. Ignoring those opinions would defeat the whole purpose of having an entry in Wikipedia about him. It would be a great disservice to the readers, and a kind of blatant, unwarranted misrepresentation of well-known facts. Moreover, ignoring his opinions or cutting down the Opinions and Stances section would be in itself tantamount to POV, because it only shows that the editor would like to "hide" - for whatever reasons - those very things that Allam wants to be known for and is, factually speaking, known for. Nowhere does the article attempt to explain or comment about his opinions or his change of opinions, unless it's a verified quote from a public personality. There is no attempt to answer the "why" question - why did he change his opinions so drastically - which is the most interesting question about Allam. Likewise, there is no attempt whatsoever to evaluate his 180-degree change - each reader can read the verified quotes, which are organized in a structured way, and make his or her own private assessment. It is not our job as editors to make that call, and the article never, even once, makes that kind of judgment. If you are not sure that this is how articles about journalists are written on Wikipedia, I suggest you take a look at the famous NYT commentator Thomas Friedman. SelfEvidentTruths ( talk) 22:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Whoever was concerned with POV did not respond to any of the arguments (s)he had generated neither contributed to the article in a very long time. Can we just assume that the POV concern can be removed?-- XPTN ( talk) 23:27, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
the article partly abounds with adulation for the article's subject, partisan formulations, defamation of critics and omissions. the revision history shows that an IP from luxembourg made this edit a while ago.
in detail:
(the word "appeasement" was deleted in the meantime)
then we have this edit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Magdi_Allam&diff=next&oldid=409794512
again, w/o comment or reason.
if i haven't stated otherwise, all of these edits are still "included" in the article. it's necessary reshaping the text, in a more neutral way. i suggest the creation of a section for the criticism, which was deleted or which is found now in inappropriate places (headings).
-- Severino ( talk) 20:48, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
now that the worst bias has been removed, there are still NPOV concerns; but if there's consensus, the neutrality tag can NOW be removed.-- Severino ( talk) 16:27, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
On the 25 March 2013, he publicly announced his abandonment of the Catholic Church:
Jacopo Werther iγ∂ψ=mψ 12:41, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Magdi Allam. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.pandemia.info/2007/01/16/pubblicare_email_private_e_let.htmlWhen you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 08:00, 12 January 2018 (UTC)