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Judging by a Google search, only known as Maelgwn I in this article. I've certainly never heard him called that. Rhion 17:57, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
This is not a sentence and means nothing. Since I know nothing about this I can't edit it to make sense... Teutanic 23:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Forgive my ignorance, I don't know much old or middle welsh, but doesn't this man's name mean "bald dog". In the Irish forms recorded for the Pictish king Bridei's father, this is indeed what it appears to mean (or rather "Máel of the Dog"). - Calgacus ( ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 09:36, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to open this thread up again, but I suggest that the 'Name' section be tidied up. Why does the 'it need to include a long and confusing discussion and a potted history of British phonology, instead of just stating that the name is British and means 'hound prince' (etc)? Only the most basic explanation of the origins are required for this article, the rest is just irrelevant. Psammead ( talk) 13:12, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Well, "of Gwynedd" obviously.
But surely this passage is in error:
Maelgwn was the first king to enjoy the fruits of his family's conquest and he is considered the founder of the medieval kingdom's royal family. He is thus most commonly referenced by appending the name of the kingdom to his own: Maelgwn Gwynedd.
It just seems much, much more likely that he got the epithet to distinguish him from some other Maelgwn. Any idea who?
Side point: he also isn't considered the founder of the medieval kingdom's royal family. The one people think of – with Hywel the Good, Gruffydd ap Cynan, and Llywelyn the Great – was headed by Merfyn Frych and Rhodri Mawr. Roderick's kids are the ones responsible for the major branches. Is that line just completely wrong or did the editor (possibly Notunc?) mean something else:
TCE takes Gildas's use of Maglocunus (instead of the apter Magloco) as a sign that British had ceased declining its nouns and the form of Maelgwn's name had gotten "stuck". Given Gildas's complete distaste for the man and impressive mastery of Latin, I have to say I disagree with my source: Gildy's not above making cheap puns at the other kings' expense and his form of Maelgwn immediately calls magnus/megalo + cunnus to my mind.*
However, Google not only doesn't give me a reliable source. It seems to say I'm the very first person to argue that.
Surely, that can't be right. Is my mind really that much more in the gutter than other classicists? or is a working knowledge of dirty Latin just that rare these days? — LlywelynII 21:38, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
There is probably no point in mentioning this but, I am a descendent to the king of Gwynedd but this line dates back centuries and not much information has been passed down with my family so honestly, I have had more information about my ancestry after reading this! I do hope that all the information given is accurate. But it’s wonderful to know about my ancient family.
Gwyn Humphreys - Seriously
The previous article, a collection of unreferenced quotes, has been replaced by a referenced article. Notuncurious ( talk) 01:32, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Please specify exactly which source states that he died "c 547". In the long discussion of sources, I don't see that specifically stated anywhere. Please be specific so I can read the original myself. Thanks. Pickle23 ( talk) 23:57, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Apologies for the citation error - I have been unable to correct the fault. The Roman Numerals are correct usage as the main text uses standard numerals.Rosser Gruffydd 10:59, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
according to Tim Clarkson in 'The Picts' Maelgwn is the Welsh form of Maglocunus and that in some Welsh sources he is referred to as Mailcun and in some versions of the Pictish king lists the father of Briedei is spelt Mailcon or Maelcon, he states that 'many historians' believe they are the same person. Unfortunately there aren't any footnotes in the book so doesn't reference any of them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.122.149 ( talk) 21:33, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
"Aside from having a similar name, there is nothing that connects the father of Bridei to Maelgwn Gwynedd." This is pretty biased, a lot of historians actually do believe him to be the father, so it shouldn't be put down in such a manner, especially when followed by a mini-rant against John Morris. UtherPendrogn ( talk) 22:15, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
(cur | prev) 15:21, 29 November 2016 TheGracefulSlick (talk | contribs) . . (32,610 bytes) (-219) . . (Content dispute, original version with less controversial changes.) (undo | thank)
They aren't less controversial, they're wrong.
Maelgwn: Maglokunos
M > M
a > a
g > ɨ (since it's before an l, g is vocalised)
l > l
o > unstressed o is lost
k > g (k is lenited since it's intervocalic)
u > u
n > n
os > lost due to apocope
Which gives Proto-Brythonic Maɨlgun, which fits perfectly with the Old Welsh form of Maelgwn, which is Mailgun.
Sources:
Ranko Matasovic's Etymological Dictionary of Proto-Celtic
Peter Schrivjer's Studies in British Celtic Historical Phonology
Kenneth's Language and History in Early Britain
UtherPendrogn (
talk) 20:33, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
"Gildas says as much in his condemnation, saying he held a pre-eminence over the other 4 kings similarly condemned, and also describing him as the "dragon of the island",[11] where the Isle of Anglesey is the ancient stronghold of the kings of Gwynedd."
If we are saying that the island that Gildas refers to is Anglesey, then we need a source to back that up. In addition, I think the wording is a little awkward. It would be better to split this into two sentences, then reword the Anglesey part. Maybe something like what I've written below.
"Gildas says as much in his condemnation, saying he held a pre-eminence over the other 4 kings similarly condemned.[11] He also describes Maelgwn as the "dragon of the island",[11] perhaps referring to Anglesey, the ancient stronghold of the kings of Gwynedd.[cite]"
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Judging by a Google search, only known as Maelgwn I in this article. I've certainly never heard him called that. Rhion 17:57, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
This is not a sentence and means nothing. Since I know nothing about this I can't edit it to make sense... Teutanic 23:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Forgive my ignorance, I don't know much old or middle welsh, but doesn't this man's name mean "bald dog". In the Irish forms recorded for the Pictish king Bridei's father, this is indeed what it appears to mean (or rather "Máel of the Dog"). - Calgacus ( ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 09:36, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to open this thread up again, but I suggest that the 'Name' section be tidied up. Why does the 'it need to include a long and confusing discussion and a potted history of British phonology, instead of just stating that the name is British and means 'hound prince' (etc)? Only the most basic explanation of the origins are required for this article, the rest is just irrelevant. Psammead ( talk) 13:12, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Well, "of Gwynedd" obviously.
But surely this passage is in error:
Maelgwn was the first king to enjoy the fruits of his family's conquest and he is considered the founder of the medieval kingdom's royal family. He is thus most commonly referenced by appending the name of the kingdom to his own: Maelgwn Gwynedd.
It just seems much, much more likely that he got the epithet to distinguish him from some other Maelgwn. Any idea who?
Side point: he also isn't considered the founder of the medieval kingdom's royal family. The one people think of – with Hywel the Good, Gruffydd ap Cynan, and Llywelyn the Great – was headed by Merfyn Frych and Rhodri Mawr. Roderick's kids are the ones responsible for the major branches. Is that line just completely wrong or did the editor (possibly Notunc?) mean something else:
TCE takes Gildas's use of Maglocunus (instead of the apter Magloco) as a sign that British had ceased declining its nouns and the form of Maelgwn's name had gotten "stuck". Given Gildas's complete distaste for the man and impressive mastery of Latin, I have to say I disagree with my source: Gildy's not above making cheap puns at the other kings' expense and his form of Maelgwn immediately calls magnus/megalo + cunnus to my mind.*
However, Google not only doesn't give me a reliable source. It seems to say I'm the very first person to argue that.
Surely, that can't be right. Is my mind really that much more in the gutter than other classicists? or is a working knowledge of dirty Latin just that rare these days? — LlywelynII 21:38, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
There is probably no point in mentioning this but, I am a descendent to the king of Gwynedd but this line dates back centuries and not much information has been passed down with my family so honestly, I have had more information about my ancestry after reading this! I do hope that all the information given is accurate. But it’s wonderful to know about my ancient family.
Gwyn Humphreys - Seriously
The previous article, a collection of unreferenced quotes, has been replaced by a referenced article. Notuncurious ( talk) 01:32, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Please specify exactly which source states that he died "c 547". In the long discussion of sources, I don't see that specifically stated anywhere. Please be specific so I can read the original myself. Thanks. Pickle23 ( talk) 23:57, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Apologies for the citation error - I have been unable to correct the fault. The Roman Numerals are correct usage as the main text uses standard numerals.Rosser Gruffydd 10:59, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
according to Tim Clarkson in 'The Picts' Maelgwn is the Welsh form of Maglocunus and that in some Welsh sources he is referred to as Mailcun and in some versions of the Pictish king lists the father of Briedei is spelt Mailcon or Maelcon, he states that 'many historians' believe they are the same person. Unfortunately there aren't any footnotes in the book so doesn't reference any of them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.122.149 ( talk) 21:33, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
"Aside from having a similar name, there is nothing that connects the father of Bridei to Maelgwn Gwynedd." This is pretty biased, a lot of historians actually do believe him to be the father, so it shouldn't be put down in such a manner, especially when followed by a mini-rant against John Morris. UtherPendrogn ( talk) 22:15, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
(cur | prev) 15:21, 29 November 2016 TheGracefulSlick (talk | contribs) . . (32,610 bytes) (-219) . . (Content dispute, original version with less controversial changes.) (undo | thank)
They aren't less controversial, they're wrong.
Maelgwn: Maglokunos
M > M
a > a
g > ɨ (since it's before an l, g is vocalised)
l > l
o > unstressed o is lost
k > g (k is lenited since it's intervocalic)
u > u
n > n
os > lost due to apocope
Which gives Proto-Brythonic Maɨlgun, which fits perfectly with the Old Welsh form of Maelgwn, which is Mailgun.
Sources:
Ranko Matasovic's Etymological Dictionary of Proto-Celtic
Peter Schrivjer's Studies in British Celtic Historical Phonology
Kenneth's Language and History in Early Britain
UtherPendrogn (
talk) 20:33, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
"Gildas says as much in his condemnation, saying he held a pre-eminence over the other 4 kings similarly condemned, and also describing him as the "dragon of the island",[11] where the Isle of Anglesey is the ancient stronghold of the kings of Gwynedd."
If we are saying that the island that Gildas refers to is Anglesey, then we need a source to back that up. In addition, I think the wording is a little awkward. It would be better to split this into two sentences, then reword the Anglesey part. Maybe something like what I've written below.
"Gildas says as much in his condemnation, saying he held a pre-eminence over the other 4 kings similarly condemned.[11] He also describes Maelgwn as the "dragon of the island",[11] perhaps referring to Anglesey, the ancient stronghold of the kings of Gwynedd.[cite]"