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Rather than the 'mug shot' which is expected to look 'suspicious', a portrait of Madoff at his most disarmingly gregarious & confidence inspiring, would serve better to educate readers about the nature of a 'con-man', or perhaps both, side-by-side. -- Wikidity ( talk) 03:55, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
The original reason I took it out was b/c of WP:UNDUE (her salary and her husband's profession, not really relevant to illegal activities). Furtive Admirer then stuck it back in with the justification of:
ann the personal secretary has been given perks to keep her mouth shut. there is an article http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE52J4IF20090320 an eyewitness discusses how everyone was overpaid. besides, you deleted the footnoted source.
The footnote and the source there do not say that explicitly so to include it on those grounds is WP:OR (her husband has a low pay job and yet she has this much money, she must be crooked). Soxwon ( talk) 18:05, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
that is my personal opinion, not fact. i didn't write it. reuters thought it was a significant FACT. complain to them.
Furtive admirer ( talk) 18:17, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
You spend an inordinate amount of time examining me. why not examine annette? bloomberg has, and their news organization thinks her assets are pretty significant to disclose, not filler. you should also.
Furtive admirer ( talk) 18:26, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
the final edit looks fine. the husband is out. the assets are in and the footnote link to bloomberg explains the rest.
Furtive admirer ( talk) 18:36, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Other governments are looking into fraud connected with Madoff as well. I added a link to today's Guardian article, but we really need a full section to cover these. Flatterworld ( talk) 05:08, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
This article should be called the "Madoff Ponzi Scheme Scandal" 216.153.214.89 ( talk) 05:47, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Where is the mention of the Securities Investor Protection Corporation? Here is what the Wikipedia article says:
Over and over, the victims of Madoff or the news media tell us, they lost everything. Not quite. While half a million dollars is not much when the victims thought they had many millions, it is a lot of money to many of us, and there might even be twice that for couples who had separate accounts. I am as outraged as anybody by the failure of the Securities and Exchange Commission to detect the fraud, when many times they were told that something was fishy. Can we have the SIPC material added to this article? -- DThomsen8 ( talk) 02:19, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Why this cut [1]? If the sources are accurately reflected, I don't see the harm. -- JohnnyB256 ( talk) 14:05, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
I don't know, it seemed like the lede was trying to cover too much ground, I trimmed it down to the bare essentials. Thoughts? Soxwon ( talk) 05:33, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
The references are a mess again. Please, use citation templates, and use ref IDs for duplicate links. We have bare URLs stretching across two columns and on top of other text. The links are becoming unreadable. In an article with this many links, formatting matters. -- John Nagle ( talk) 07:03, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Rendering error in citation.-- Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 06:16, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I should be clearer: In William Foxton subsection there is a rendering error. Please someone fix it. I cannot due to an unusually small cranial volume, (a disorder synonymous with village idiocy).-- Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 06:21, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Fixed. Ecphora ( talk) 12:51, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
This is variously said to be on 16/6/2009 and 29/6/2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.192.180 ( talk) 08:49, 29 June 2009 (UTC) Actual sentencing time seems to be 10 a.m., local time, on 29/6/2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.117.81 ( talk) 13:33, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Ive removed, per current template documentation and a discussion of a similar situation on my take page [3]. Evidently this template is only used in situations in which swarms of editors are editing an article, but that does not seem to be the case here anymore. -- JohnnyB256 ( talk) 16:44, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the statement that Madoff was arrested by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) on December 11, 2008, on a criminal charge of securities fraud, and that the previous day, he had told his sons that his business was "a giant Ponzi scheme" please see for purposes of information and discussion the entries dated July 24-26 in the Talk page of the Wikipedia article on Bernard Madoff "Allegations the sons knew about the fraud". Stefanson ( talk) 18:14, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
"Ex-Madoff CFO DiPascali to Be Charged, Plead Guilty, U.S. Says" [4]. He apparently cut a plea deal and will talk. More information on Monday after the arraignment. Expect more activity on this story. -- John Nagle ( talk) 18:44, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
This article needs help with link cleanup. Please try to convert plain links to citation templates, and use link names to eliminate duplicates. I had to convert the reflist back to one-column format because all the long URLs were rendering as text on top of text. (Wikipedia's multi-column reflist thing has the usual CSS problems with multi-column tables. We can switch back after link cleanup.) Try to use links that aren't behind a paywall. Use Webcitation when necessary.
We may also be able to remove some of the earlier, more speculative references as hard information comes in from confessions, legal documents, and audits. -- John Nagle ( talk) 16:57, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
We have a new addition to the article saying that "less than half of Madoff investors lost money". That's from the New York Daily News, though; they're a tabloid and not big on financial details. The financial press has a more detailed analysis. That number includes only direct Madoff customers, not the ones who bought in through "feeder funds". The "feeder funds" are being counted as one Madoff investor each, but each one represents some number of smaller investors. Bloomberg reports that 60 of the 83 feeder funds invested in Madoff have put in claims. [6]. The top 10 Madoff investors were all funds of one kind or another. Those 10 clients alone claim $20 billion in losses. [7] Give this a few days; I expect more published analysis as the business press crunches the data. -- John Nagle ( talk) 07:54, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
More information about the size of the fraud is now coming in from the chief counsel for the Madoff trustee: "Asked how much real money went into the whole scheme, Sheehan told Safer, "I'd say about $36 billion. And about 18 of it went out before the collapse. And 18 of it is just missing. And that $18 billion is what we're trying to get back.". [8]. That article is a good read. The trustee's office is going after Madoff's wife, Madoff's sons, and some of Madoff's customers, especially Jeffry Picower ("in terms of the monies that he took out, but the records with regard to the relationship, the manipulation and backdating of trades, he had to know, or someone knew it was false") and Stanley Chais. -- John Nagle ( talk) 03:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Jeffry Picower was just found dead at the bottom of his Palm Beach swimming pool. Unknown yet whether this was murder, suicide, or accident. [9] -- John Nagle ( talk) 21:20, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Some yachts have been sold for £1.2 million, but this will not go far. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.82.116.138 ( talk) 16:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
This fraud is detailed and sophisticated. Many reader would like to understand the scheme in more layman's terms. For example, Charles Ponzi article explained the fraud to any reader. My 2 cents... All4peace ( talk) 14:39, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
Stonybrook and the Simons Foundation seem to have lost about $5,000,000 each to Madoff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.194.200 ( talk) 13:30, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
This seems to be missing a redirect from Bernie Madoff scandal. 64.229.100.45 ( talk) 18:47, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
"he hadn't actually traded since the mid-1990s"
"Madoff's brokerage operation was very real"
Please explain how the brokerage operation is real if it doesn't broker?-- Wp500 ( talk) 18:41, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Not really. The author is Mike Shedlock writing at the Market Oracle, which is not the same.
I think it should be corrected to "called by Mike Shedlock"
Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 17:09, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
This needs to be corrected. I pointed it out on the Discussion page to be polite.
Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 17:59, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
I tried to fix it but can't get it. (I don't know why; I've never had a problem linking to another part of Wikipedia before.) Maybe somebody else could fix this?
Thank you Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 17:11, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
"The sale of the 'calls' is designed to increase the rate of return, while allowing upward movement of the stock portfolio to the strike price of the 'calls'. The 'puts', funded in large part by the sales of the 'calls', limit the portfolio's downside."
And I corrected it - perhaps somewhere else - (the article and associated entries, suffer from a lot of fragmentation IMO).
I even put in a link to the Investopedia. Again, maybe somewhere else.
In any case, as it stands it is wrong and / or incomplete.
Check out "collar" at the Investopedia:
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/collar.asp
Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 20:46, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure I fully understand what you are saying.
I am suggesting however that a careful analysis of the definition of a collar and the present wording in WP is not compatible.
I haven't got the time, or inclination (hey I'm almost 70) at this stage in my life to prove what anybody can see for themselves.
All the best and the article is too long anyway.
Maybe you could devote your considerable talents to reformulating the actual entry?
That would be great, I'm sure.
Following Frank's deletion of my edit the present version of Purported Strategy reads as follows:
"The sale of the 'calls' is designed to increase the rate of return, while allowing upward movement of the stock portfolio to the strike price of the 'calls'. The 'puts', funded in large part by the sales of the 'calls', limit the portfolio's downside.""
"allowing upward movement of the stock portfolio to the strike price of the 'calls'."
As it stands this is total nonsense.
Furthermore, why mention the limit of the downside and not mention the limit to the potential gains? At best, this is incomplete, at worst it is wrong.
Moreover, why eliminate the relevant comment (relevant with respect to the alleged strategy) by Markopolos about the impossibility simply because there is a section called Red Flags where Markopolos' role is treated in more detail? I suggest, to analyse the "strategy" it IS relevant to quote Markopolos as saying that there weren't enough options around.
Why then not eliminate the section completely since we all know by now that Madoff was a fraud and liar? ( I am only half facetious.)
I repeat:
As it stands the section Purported Strategy is, at best, incomplete and at worst meaningless and/or wrong.
Personally, I do not wish to edit anymore just to have it deleted without the courtesy of a discussion first. Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 17:57, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Tangled Webs won a Pulitzer Prize. Is that reliable enough as a source?
With all due respect, as somebody editing financial articles you seem to know very little about the markets.
""allowing upward movement of the stock portfolio to the strike price of the 'calls'."
The alleged portfolio contained both OEX (later Madoff claimed he used a "basket of equities" as proxies) The OEX and the Calls have their own dynamic, with the latter losing its time premium steadily. "Allowing upward movement of the stock portfolio" is nonsense as it includes Calls, Puts the OEX and/or the "basket of equities".
I know it because I have been trading for decades and decades ago I obtained the necessary qualifications to be an independent market maker in options (though I have never worked as such) at the Montreal Exchange.
Do I also need a reliable reference to assert that there is a sunset at the end of the day or is my life experience ("original research") good enough?
The reference to the Investopedia, which you eliminated made clear the fact that the strategy would also limit gains and could also lead to losses. Hence the name "collar".
Do you find that irrelevant?
Do you think Investopedia is not a reliable source? (I suggest, if so you haven't done much reading there.)
Why do you think it is relevant to cite the possible gains and not the possible losses, or at least the limitation of gains?
Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 15:47, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
"a discussion beforehand is not necessary"
Even when you distort the article?
Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 15:49, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Frank:
"On the other hand, if you are saying "Investopedia says X and therefore what Madoff said was bogus and I am qualified to draw that conclusion", that is original research and is not appropriate for a Wikipedia article."
Analysis is original research? To draw conclusions is not analysis?
And I did not say:
""Investopedia says X and therefore what Madoff said was bogus and I am qualified to draw that conclusion"
I linked to Investiopedia so that people can see a DEFINITION of collar. Anybody with the capacity to reason can therefore conclude that Madoff was lying, something we by NOW know and knowledgeable people should have known (and some probably did). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gatorinvancouver ( talk • contribs) 19:26, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
I give up.
But why do you KEEP ignoring my point about the section - in its present form - being wrong and/or misleading?
John Nagle:
I am aware of the article you mentioned and it (and the process at the SEC) is analysed in great detail in Tangled Webs. Quoting Markopolos (even though he is treated at great detail in the section Red Flags) in this section was to show that the claimed strategy was impossible. And indeed Madoff changed his story during the investigation claiming that he stopped using options.
Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 19:13, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
You are grossly distorting what I said.
I mentioned this after you had first insisted on deleting it because it was treated at length further on in the article.
As a matter of fact you did this right in the section where I asked for help with an internal link.
How constructive is that?
Then you went on about "original research" that all so curious criterion of WP: Any first year's college term paper is "original research" cutting and pasting "respectable sources".
Anyway, I digress.
You have the last word in the edit of this article (for the time being).
Happy?
If so, it still is not accurate and since you deleted the parts I wrote (and linked to) to explain "the purported strategy" in more detail, is it not WP etiquette to rewrite a correct version of the article?
I'm kind of curious about your answer but I'm kind of getting a bit tired of what I conceive to be going in circles leading to Godot's Nowhere/Nobody.
So have fun.
I still think WP is one of the best things ever invented and will continue to support it.
But maybe, editing here is not my cup of tea.
Love and Peace (told y'a I was almost 70).
Gatorinvancouver (
talk)
01:24, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
"We are here to report what is written elsewhere in reliable sources with a neutral point of view."
If you only did Frank, if you only did. Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 01:36, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
You "missed the mark" dear Frank when you didn't replace what you broke.
And in my ears you are sounding a lot like a bureaucrat obsessed with form ( I'm not saying this is not important) and short of substance.
So please, dear Frank, do rewrite the paragraph you deleted.
That's what I'm suggesting.
Please do read the above comments again objectively.
Regards. Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 02:54, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
I only said I'm suggesting. Gee. P.S. You still don't mind the inaccuracy of the article as it presently is, which I have clearly demonstrated several times, do you? Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 03:34, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
You were wrong about my edit as far as I can tell:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research
Gatorinvancouver (
talk) 03:47, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
And please do tell Frank: Why do you continue to give instructions instead of actually writing something people visiting the WP will read? (It won't be the discussion pages they want to read unless they are people who want to edit the article, or "boss" others around.)
Gatorinvancouver (
talk)
03:50, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm just a lowly IP, but having Maddof's religion and '(Jewish) affinity fraud' in the box at the top troubles me. I'm not saying that it is an unreasonable thing to have, as quite a few sources in the article have indicated that Madoff did use his his 'Jewishness' and general ties in the Jewish community to raise money. That, by itself, makes it very useful to have the 'affinity fraud' portion of the box, although it might not be as necessary to identify exactly whom was being targeted. Consequently, further identifying Maddof's religion as Judaism makes sense, since it explains why he targeted the Jewish community in particular.
However, I am worried that without a greater amount of context in the box, someone reading the article would see those two items at the top and from that conclude that this is a anti-Semitic article. The reason for this is that the term 'affinity fraud' is not well known and someone reading this might conclude that the box is simply 'blaming Jews/Judaism' for fraud. That's particularly true because of the addition of Maddof's religion, which seems a bit unnecessary to highlight in the box like that. So essentially, I'd just like for a bit more clarification in the box, so that someone reading it wouldn't come to the wrong impressions or, at least, to have Maddof's religion not be highlighted there.
Having said that, I do realize that it isn't too hard for people to simply Ctrl+f 'Jew' in the article or simply click the link on affinity fraud to realize and understand exactly why those terms are there. A such, I'll leave it up to some other editor to conclude whether these concerns are reasonable or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.143.43.36 ( talk) 12:42, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
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What happened to the Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities (MADF) accounts and clients? Normally, some institution comes in and takes these over. Which investment house got them? Did they pay anything for them? (they would have been worth something). If so, how much? Did very many, if any, of the brokers or other employees make the transition as well? Thanks in advance to anybody who knows. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Betathetapi545 ( talk • contribs) 14:02, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
Not sure how to describe this aspect of the topic, but I think the article should consider how the financial press helped Madoff get away with his scam for so many years. Perhaps there should be a single list of Madoff's media appearances over the years? The one that just came to my attention was actually a secondhand citation in the book "Panic" by Michael Lewis, where on page 190 we have the appearance of "a market veteran, Bernard L. Madoff" in a reprint of a WSJ article (or editorial?) from 24 February 1999. (Amusingly enough, Madoff is explaining why dot com stocks are too risky for him.) I'm sure that such press coverage had been exceedingly helpful to Madoff in getting more suckers for his Ponzi scheme. In defense of Michael Lewis, let me note that his book was published just after the scandal had been exposed. I had actually come to Wikipedia today to check those dates, but I guess the publication process was too far along to pull the Wall Street Journal interview at that point. Still, the larger point is that Madoff was NOT invisible in 1999, even if his scam remained hidden until 2008. Shanen ( talk) 01:39, 21 July 2017 (UTC) story
There are articles [1] indicating that Edward O. Thorp figured out that Madoff was a fraud in 1991. Should this be in the article? Gah4 ( talk) 01:23, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
References
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Thanks for the heads up Jasper Deng. The issue is that it is absolutely wrong to say it was "discovered in 2008". I may have expanded too much in my first edit, but this falsehood can not stand as the first thing said in this article.
Perhaps drop some of the extras I added throughout the article, and keep a clean change in the opening paragraph, something like:
The Madoff investment scandal was a major case of stock and securities fraud. The fraud was first discovered in 1999 by portfolio manager Harry Markopolos, who alerted the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) in 2000, 2001, and 2005, complete with supporting documents. [1] The SEC did not act until December 2008, when the adult sons of Bernard Madoff notified the SEC of their father’s fraud. Madoff, the former NASDAQ Chairman and founder of the Wall Street firm Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC, admitted that the wealth management arm of his business was an elaborate Ponzi scheme.
Shorter? Longer? Just not the lie that it was "discovered in 2008". Jmg38 ( talk) 19:14, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
References
In December of that year, Bernie Madoff, the former NASDAQ chairman and founder of the Wall Street firm Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC, admitted that the wealth management arm of his business was an elaborate multi-billion-dollar Ponzi scheme.
It's a really ugly look to have "Bernard L. Madoff" stuffed inside a comma-clause Big Gulp about Bernie Madoff.
If you like that style, get a job at a newspaper, if you can still find one (either the job or the newspaper).
Jesting aside, these stuffed lungfish -theticals are hard on readability to begin with, and this is an especially bad case. — MaxEnt 17:17, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
This is the
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![]() | A news item involving Madoff investment scandal was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 12 March 2009. | ![]() |
![]() | Material from Bernard Madoff was split to Madoff investment scandal on 12 March 2009, 05:30 GMT. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted so long as the latter page exists. Please leave this template in place to link the article histories and preserve this attribution. The former page's talk page can be accessed at Talk:Bernard Madoff. |
Rather than the 'mug shot' which is expected to look 'suspicious', a portrait of Madoff at his most disarmingly gregarious & confidence inspiring, would serve better to educate readers about the nature of a 'con-man', or perhaps both, side-by-side. -- Wikidity ( talk) 03:55, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
The original reason I took it out was b/c of WP:UNDUE (her salary and her husband's profession, not really relevant to illegal activities). Furtive Admirer then stuck it back in with the justification of:
ann the personal secretary has been given perks to keep her mouth shut. there is an article http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE52J4IF20090320 an eyewitness discusses how everyone was overpaid. besides, you deleted the footnoted source.
The footnote and the source there do not say that explicitly so to include it on those grounds is WP:OR (her husband has a low pay job and yet she has this much money, she must be crooked). Soxwon ( talk) 18:05, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
that is my personal opinion, not fact. i didn't write it. reuters thought it was a significant FACT. complain to them.
Furtive admirer ( talk) 18:17, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
You spend an inordinate amount of time examining me. why not examine annette? bloomberg has, and their news organization thinks her assets are pretty significant to disclose, not filler. you should also.
Furtive admirer ( talk) 18:26, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
the final edit looks fine. the husband is out. the assets are in and the footnote link to bloomberg explains the rest.
Furtive admirer ( talk) 18:36, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Other governments are looking into fraud connected with Madoff as well. I added a link to today's Guardian article, but we really need a full section to cover these. Flatterworld ( talk) 05:08, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
This article should be called the "Madoff Ponzi Scheme Scandal" 216.153.214.89 ( talk) 05:47, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Where is the mention of the Securities Investor Protection Corporation? Here is what the Wikipedia article says:
Over and over, the victims of Madoff or the news media tell us, they lost everything. Not quite. While half a million dollars is not much when the victims thought they had many millions, it is a lot of money to many of us, and there might even be twice that for couples who had separate accounts. I am as outraged as anybody by the failure of the Securities and Exchange Commission to detect the fraud, when many times they were told that something was fishy. Can we have the SIPC material added to this article? -- DThomsen8 ( talk) 02:19, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Why this cut [1]? If the sources are accurately reflected, I don't see the harm. -- JohnnyB256 ( talk) 14:05, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
I don't know, it seemed like the lede was trying to cover too much ground, I trimmed it down to the bare essentials. Thoughts? Soxwon ( talk) 05:33, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
The references are a mess again. Please, use citation templates, and use ref IDs for duplicate links. We have bare URLs stretching across two columns and on top of other text. The links are becoming unreadable. In an article with this many links, formatting matters. -- John Nagle ( talk) 07:03, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Rendering error in citation.-- Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 06:16, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I should be clearer: In William Foxton subsection there is a rendering error. Please someone fix it. I cannot due to an unusually small cranial volume, (a disorder synonymous with village idiocy).-- Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 06:21, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Fixed. Ecphora ( talk) 12:51, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
This is variously said to be on 16/6/2009 and 29/6/2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.192.180 ( talk) 08:49, 29 June 2009 (UTC) Actual sentencing time seems to be 10 a.m., local time, on 29/6/2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.117.81 ( talk) 13:33, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Ive removed, per current template documentation and a discussion of a similar situation on my take page [3]. Evidently this template is only used in situations in which swarms of editors are editing an article, but that does not seem to be the case here anymore. -- JohnnyB256 ( talk) 16:44, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the statement that Madoff was arrested by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) on December 11, 2008, on a criminal charge of securities fraud, and that the previous day, he had told his sons that his business was "a giant Ponzi scheme" please see for purposes of information and discussion the entries dated July 24-26 in the Talk page of the Wikipedia article on Bernard Madoff "Allegations the sons knew about the fraud". Stefanson ( talk) 18:14, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
"Ex-Madoff CFO DiPascali to Be Charged, Plead Guilty, U.S. Says" [4]. He apparently cut a plea deal and will talk. More information on Monday after the arraignment. Expect more activity on this story. -- John Nagle ( talk) 18:44, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
This article needs help with link cleanup. Please try to convert plain links to citation templates, and use link names to eliminate duplicates. I had to convert the reflist back to one-column format because all the long URLs were rendering as text on top of text. (Wikipedia's multi-column reflist thing has the usual CSS problems with multi-column tables. We can switch back after link cleanup.) Try to use links that aren't behind a paywall. Use Webcitation when necessary.
We may also be able to remove some of the earlier, more speculative references as hard information comes in from confessions, legal documents, and audits. -- John Nagle ( talk) 16:57, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
We have a new addition to the article saying that "less than half of Madoff investors lost money". That's from the New York Daily News, though; they're a tabloid and not big on financial details. The financial press has a more detailed analysis. That number includes only direct Madoff customers, not the ones who bought in through "feeder funds". The "feeder funds" are being counted as one Madoff investor each, but each one represents some number of smaller investors. Bloomberg reports that 60 of the 83 feeder funds invested in Madoff have put in claims. [6]. The top 10 Madoff investors were all funds of one kind or another. Those 10 clients alone claim $20 billion in losses. [7] Give this a few days; I expect more published analysis as the business press crunches the data. -- John Nagle ( talk) 07:54, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
More information about the size of the fraud is now coming in from the chief counsel for the Madoff trustee: "Asked how much real money went into the whole scheme, Sheehan told Safer, "I'd say about $36 billion. And about 18 of it went out before the collapse. And 18 of it is just missing. And that $18 billion is what we're trying to get back.". [8]. That article is a good read. The trustee's office is going after Madoff's wife, Madoff's sons, and some of Madoff's customers, especially Jeffry Picower ("in terms of the monies that he took out, but the records with regard to the relationship, the manipulation and backdating of trades, he had to know, or someone knew it was false") and Stanley Chais. -- John Nagle ( talk) 03:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Jeffry Picower was just found dead at the bottom of his Palm Beach swimming pool. Unknown yet whether this was murder, suicide, or accident. [9] -- John Nagle ( talk) 21:20, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Some yachts have been sold for £1.2 million, but this will not go far. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.82.116.138 ( talk) 16:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
This fraud is detailed and sophisticated. Many reader would like to understand the scheme in more layman's terms. For example, Charles Ponzi article explained the fraud to any reader. My 2 cents... All4peace ( talk) 14:39, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
Stonybrook and the Simons Foundation seem to have lost about $5,000,000 each to Madoff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.194.200 ( talk) 13:30, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
This seems to be missing a redirect from Bernie Madoff scandal. 64.229.100.45 ( talk) 18:47, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
"he hadn't actually traded since the mid-1990s"
"Madoff's brokerage operation was very real"
Please explain how the brokerage operation is real if it doesn't broker?-- Wp500 ( talk) 18:41, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Not really. The author is Mike Shedlock writing at the Market Oracle, which is not the same.
I think it should be corrected to "called by Mike Shedlock"
Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 17:09, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
This needs to be corrected. I pointed it out on the Discussion page to be polite.
Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 17:59, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
I tried to fix it but can't get it. (I don't know why; I've never had a problem linking to another part of Wikipedia before.) Maybe somebody else could fix this?
Thank you Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 17:11, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
"The sale of the 'calls' is designed to increase the rate of return, while allowing upward movement of the stock portfolio to the strike price of the 'calls'. The 'puts', funded in large part by the sales of the 'calls', limit the portfolio's downside."
And I corrected it - perhaps somewhere else - (the article and associated entries, suffer from a lot of fragmentation IMO).
I even put in a link to the Investopedia. Again, maybe somewhere else.
In any case, as it stands it is wrong and / or incomplete.
Check out "collar" at the Investopedia:
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/collar.asp
Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 20:46, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure I fully understand what you are saying.
I am suggesting however that a careful analysis of the definition of a collar and the present wording in WP is not compatible.
I haven't got the time, or inclination (hey I'm almost 70) at this stage in my life to prove what anybody can see for themselves.
All the best and the article is too long anyway.
Maybe you could devote your considerable talents to reformulating the actual entry?
That would be great, I'm sure.
Following Frank's deletion of my edit the present version of Purported Strategy reads as follows:
"The sale of the 'calls' is designed to increase the rate of return, while allowing upward movement of the stock portfolio to the strike price of the 'calls'. The 'puts', funded in large part by the sales of the 'calls', limit the portfolio's downside.""
"allowing upward movement of the stock portfolio to the strike price of the 'calls'."
As it stands this is total nonsense.
Furthermore, why mention the limit of the downside and not mention the limit to the potential gains? At best, this is incomplete, at worst it is wrong.
Moreover, why eliminate the relevant comment (relevant with respect to the alleged strategy) by Markopolos about the impossibility simply because there is a section called Red Flags where Markopolos' role is treated in more detail? I suggest, to analyse the "strategy" it IS relevant to quote Markopolos as saying that there weren't enough options around.
Why then not eliminate the section completely since we all know by now that Madoff was a fraud and liar? ( I am only half facetious.)
I repeat:
As it stands the section Purported Strategy is, at best, incomplete and at worst meaningless and/or wrong.
Personally, I do not wish to edit anymore just to have it deleted without the courtesy of a discussion first. Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 17:57, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Tangled Webs won a Pulitzer Prize. Is that reliable enough as a source?
With all due respect, as somebody editing financial articles you seem to know very little about the markets.
""allowing upward movement of the stock portfolio to the strike price of the 'calls'."
The alleged portfolio contained both OEX (later Madoff claimed he used a "basket of equities" as proxies) The OEX and the Calls have their own dynamic, with the latter losing its time premium steadily. "Allowing upward movement of the stock portfolio" is nonsense as it includes Calls, Puts the OEX and/or the "basket of equities".
I know it because I have been trading for decades and decades ago I obtained the necessary qualifications to be an independent market maker in options (though I have never worked as such) at the Montreal Exchange.
Do I also need a reliable reference to assert that there is a sunset at the end of the day or is my life experience ("original research") good enough?
The reference to the Investopedia, which you eliminated made clear the fact that the strategy would also limit gains and could also lead to losses. Hence the name "collar".
Do you find that irrelevant?
Do you think Investopedia is not a reliable source? (I suggest, if so you haven't done much reading there.)
Why do you think it is relevant to cite the possible gains and not the possible losses, or at least the limitation of gains?
Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 15:47, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
"a discussion beforehand is not necessary"
Even when you distort the article?
Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 15:49, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Frank:
"On the other hand, if you are saying "Investopedia says X and therefore what Madoff said was bogus and I am qualified to draw that conclusion", that is original research and is not appropriate for a Wikipedia article."
Analysis is original research? To draw conclusions is not analysis?
And I did not say:
""Investopedia says X and therefore what Madoff said was bogus and I am qualified to draw that conclusion"
I linked to Investiopedia so that people can see a DEFINITION of collar. Anybody with the capacity to reason can therefore conclude that Madoff was lying, something we by NOW know and knowledgeable people should have known (and some probably did). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gatorinvancouver ( talk • contribs) 19:26, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
I give up.
But why do you KEEP ignoring my point about the section - in its present form - being wrong and/or misleading?
John Nagle:
I am aware of the article you mentioned and it (and the process at the SEC) is analysed in great detail in Tangled Webs. Quoting Markopolos (even though he is treated at great detail in the section Red Flags) in this section was to show that the claimed strategy was impossible. And indeed Madoff changed his story during the investigation claiming that he stopped using options.
Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 19:13, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
You are grossly distorting what I said.
I mentioned this after you had first insisted on deleting it because it was treated at length further on in the article.
As a matter of fact you did this right in the section where I asked for help with an internal link.
How constructive is that?
Then you went on about "original research" that all so curious criterion of WP: Any first year's college term paper is "original research" cutting and pasting "respectable sources".
Anyway, I digress.
You have the last word in the edit of this article (for the time being).
Happy?
If so, it still is not accurate and since you deleted the parts I wrote (and linked to) to explain "the purported strategy" in more detail, is it not WP etiquette to rewrite a correct version of the article?
I'm kind of curious about your answer but I'm kind of getting a bit tired of what I conceive to be going in circles leading to Godot's Nowhere/Nobody.
So have fun.
I still think WP is one of the best things ever invented and will continue to support it.
But maybe, editing here is not my cup of tea.
Love and Peace (told y'a I was almost 70).
Gatorinvancouver (
talk)
01:24, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
"We are here to report what is written elsewhere in reliable sources with a neutral point of view."
If you only did Frank, if you only did. Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 01:36, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
You "missed the mark" dear Frank when you didn't replace what you broke.
And in my ears you are sounding a lot like a bureaucrat obsessed with form ( I'm not saying this is not important) and short of substance.
So please, dear Frank, do rewrite the paragraph you deleted.
That's what I'm suggesting.
Please do read the above comments again objectively.
Regards. Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 02:54, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
I only said I'm suggesting. Gee. P.S. You still don't mind the inaccuracy of the article as it presently is, which I have clearly demonstrated several times, do you? Gatorinvancouver ( talk) 03:34, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
You were wrong about my edit as far as I can tell:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research
Gatorinvancouver (
talk) 03:47, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
And please do tell Frank: Why do you continue to give instructions instead of actually writing something people visiting the WP will read? (It won't be the discussion pages they want to read unless they are people who want to edit the article, or "boss" others around.)
Gatorinvancouver (
talk)
03:50, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm just a lowly IP, but having Maddof's religion and '(Jewish) affinity fraud' in the box at the top troubles me. I'm not saying that it is an unreasonable thing to have, as quite a few sources in the article have indicated that Madoff did use his his 'Jewishness' and general ties in the Jewish community to raise money. That, by itself, makes it very useful to have the 'affinity fraud' portion of the box, although it might not be as necessary to identify exactly whom was being targeted. Consequently, further identifying Maddof's religion as Judaism makes sense, since it explains why he targeted the Jewish community in particular.
However, I am worried that without a greater amount of context in the box, someone reading the article would see those two items at the top and from that conclude that this is a anti-Semitic article. The reason for this is that the term 'affinity fraud' is not well known and someone reading this might conclude that the box is simply 'blaming Jews/Judaism' for fraud. That's particularly true because of the addition of Maddof's religion, which seems a bit unnecessary to highlight in the box like that. So essentially, I'd just like for a bit more clarification in the box, so that someone reading it wouldn't come to the wrong impressions or, at least, to have Maddof's religion not be highlighted there.
Having said that, I do realize that it isn't too hard for people to simply Ctrl+f 'Jew' in the article or simply click the link on affinity fraud to realize and understand exactly why those terms are there. A such, I'll leave it up to some other editor to conclude whether these concerns are reasonable or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.143.43.36 ( talk) 12:42, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
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What happened to the Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities (MADF) accounts and clients? Normally, some institution comes in and takes these over. Which investment house got them? Did they pay anything for them? (they would have been worth something). If so, how much? Did very many, if any, of the brokers or other employees make the transition as well? Thanks in advance to anybody who knows. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Betathetapi545 ( talk • contribs) 14:02, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
Not sure how to describe this aspect of the topic, but I think the article should consider how the financial press helped Madoff get away with his scam for so many years. Perhaps there should be a single list of Madoff's media appearances over the years? The one that just came to my attention was actually a secondhand citation in the book "Panic" by Michael Lewis, where on page 190 we have the appearance of "a market veteran, Bernard L. Madoff" in a reprint of a WSJ article (or editorial?) from 24 February 1999. (Amusingly enough, Madoff is explaining why dot com stocks are too risky for him.) I'm sure that such press coverage had been exceedingly helpful to Madoff in getting more suckers for his Ponzi scheme. In defense of Michael Lewis, let me note that his book was published just after the scandal had been exposed. I had actually come to Wikipedia today to check those dates, but I guess the publication process was too far along to pull the Wall Street Journal interview at that point. Still, the larger point is that Madoff was NOT invisible in 1999, even if his scam remained hidden until 2008. Shanen ( talk) 01:39, 21 July 2017 (UTC) story
There are articles [1] indicating that Edward O. Thorp figured out that Madoff was a fraud in 1991. Should this be in the article? Gah4 ( talk) 01:23, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
References
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Thanks for the heads up Jasper Deng. The issue is that it is absolutely wrong to say it was "discovered in 2008". I may have expanded too much in my first edit, but this falsehood can not stand as the first thing said in this article.
Perhaps drop some of the extras I added throughout the article, and keep a clean change in the opening paragraph, something like:
The Madoff investment scandal was a major case of stock and securities fraud. The fraud was first discovered in 1999 by portfolio manager Harry Markopolos, who alerted the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) in 2000, 2001, and 2005, complete with supporting documents. [1] The SEC did not act until December 2008, when the adult sons of Bernard Madoff notified the SEC of their father’s fraud. Madoff, the former NASDAQ Chairman and founder of the Wall Street firm Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC, admitted that the wealth management arm of his business was an elaborate Ponzi scheme.
Shorter? Longer? Just not the lie that it was "discovered in 2008". Jmg38 ( talk) 19:14, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
References
In December of that year, Bernie Madoff, the former NASDAQ chairman and founder of the Wall Street firm Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC, admitted that the wealth management arm of his business was an elaborate multi-billion-dollar Ponzi scheme.
It's a really ugly look to have "Bernard L. Madoff" stuffed inside a comma-clause Big Gulp about Bernie Madoff.
If you like that style, get a job at a newspaper, if you can still find one (either the job or the newspaper).
Jesting aside, these stuffed lungfish -theticals are hard on readability to begin with, and this is an especially bad case. — MaxEnt 17:17, 18 December 2021 (UTC)