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VMORO, I find your concerns unnecessary. If we are to distinguish people X from other people inhabiting this region we can use Macedonians (nationality) or Macedonians (ethnic group). The Ancient Macedonians article should redirect to the current Macedon article. I really don't see any rational, legal, moral, historical or practical reason why Macedonians shouldn't be called Macedonians, except for maybe proving that they are a "nation" in quotation marks. Maybe we should call them Macedonian Apes, instead? This avoids confusion even more. They are undoubtedly of primate origin, plus this is how they are generally percieved by their neighbors. "Macedonian Apes are a nation of primate origin. They call themselves "Macedonians" and a "nation", but this is somewhat ambigious, since several other real peoples inhabit the region of Macedonia." -- FlavrSavr 03:45, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
For the sake of fairness, "we" is often used on Wikipedia to mean "we the writers of Wikipedia", and there's nothing presumptuous in asking "how are we going to do something". It's not like he said "we prefer it this way". Zocky 16:28, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Basically the entire debate and the arguments brought up by the Slavic crowd are a comical contradiction. Some people suggested that Macedonian Slavs (a nation with no official name yet) have to be referred to as "Macedonians", because that's how they recognise themselves. On the other hand, Macedonian Slav scholars claim that eventhough ancient Macedonians clearly viewed themselves as Greeks, they shouldn't be recognised as such because the Greeks didn't view them that way (something which is false anyway). Macedonian Slavs are so desperate to link a historical background to their artificial nation and their vary according to the circumstances. In other words, the fact that Slavo-Macedonians refer to themselves as Macedonians is something completely irrelevant to what they actually are in reality. In most academic sources that have no ethnic context they are referred as "Western Bulgarians". And as a last notice, Nothern Greeks today refer to themselves as Macedonians as well, while on the other hand ancient Macedonians referred to themselves as Northern Greeks. After agreeing with this, the Slavic crowd had better come up with a damn good reason as to why we should consider what FYROM calls itself more valid than real Macedonians/Northern Greeks. Miskin 14:43, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You're not in position to tell me what to do and not do. Macedonian Slavs have nothing to do with ancient Macedonians but the example that I brought up does, because it was an argument against the childish argument "Macedonians Slavs should be called Macedonians because that's how they want it". It aimed to explain how Macedonian Slavs base their claims on national myths rather than logic. It's very relevant and crystal clear. Whether you refuse or fail to understand it, it's your personal problem. Miskin 15:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
And is it any wonder why they want to be called Macedonians? Slavs are known to lack Slavic pride. We always hear how the Croats are "not in fact a Slavic people, we descend from ancient Iranians", and so on and so forth. This is a common tendency among Slavic speakers. Many seek to connect themselves with anything except Slav. That's what it comes down to. That's why they fear the term Slav. It is an "insult" to call them Slavs, even though they speak Slavic languages. Decius 15:25, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm not "threatening" anybody here so stick to the topic. I'll let VMORO do the threatening on this page, since he lives in the Republic and is within firing range. Decius 16:25, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Paletakis, thank you for proving that you're unable to participate in a healthy dialogue, you know, of the kind where people answer in respect to what has actually been said to them, reaching thus a mutual communication. The name "Macedonians" has been invented and used by people who recognised themselves as Greeks 2700 years ago. Today it's still used in the same area by people also recognise themselves as Macedonian Greeks. Obviously during all this time many ethnic groups managed to settle in Macedonia (including Slavs and Turks) but Greeks never ceased to be the majority until the area was ethnically cleansed. So due all the respect, but with what logical arguments do you expect us to let this name be monopolised by a people who is alien to both the real region of Macedonia and the historically known Macedonian people? But you can't answer that can you? Let me guess, Big Brother never told you that ancient Macedonians recognised themselves as Greeks nor that part of the Greek war of independence took place in Macedonia (which is understandable). What's most pathetic about you is that in order to desperately promote your national myths about a fictional huge Slav Macedonian minority being hidden in Northern Greece, you chose a username that would sound like a real Greek name and stupidly enough a Cretan, a region which has little if anything at all to do with Macedonia. It reminds me of the Danish-made Feta which is called "SALAKIS", another a pseudo-Cretan name, written in a ridiculous ancient Greek font in order to fool French consumers into believing that it's the real thing... Miskin 11:19, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
User:FlavrSavr, I never said that this argument has no political context. It has an all political, historical, practical and cultural context (and the list can go on). Basically to someone who has fundamental historical knowledge on the term "Macedonia", it's pretty self-explanatory why Macedonian Slavs should not be allowed monopolise the name "Macedonians". In one phrase: Because they're not. The reason I'm pointing out the term "Slavic crowd" is in order to make a linguistic distinction from the real Macedonians. You can call Greeks "Hellenic" if that makes you feel any better. A more realistic debate on this article, would be on whether or not we could actually consider FYROMians as an ethnic group different from Bulgarians, instead of whether or not they should be called "Macedonians". FYROMians is a Slavic ethnic group and Macedonians is a Hellenic. The word "Macedonia" itself is a Greek word that has no meaning in the Bulgarian dialect that's so ironically baptised "the Macedonian language". What more proof do you need in order to realise that not only you don't own that name, but you also have no connection to it? What's most ironic is that your Slavic ancestors have probably fought and died against the real Macedonians who were Greeks. The sense of irony comes when the new generations want to adapt the name and heritage of their historical enemies. Imagine suddenly all Greeks wishing to be called Ottomans or something similar (and claiming that Ottomans were never a Turkic people). Since you're not ashamed of it, I rest my case. But it's extremely ridiculous that at the same time your people thinks it has an ethnic pride... What would life be without a sense of irony? :) Miskin 11:19, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
And for crying out loud, the UN and NATO do not, not, NOT recognise "Macedonians" they only recognise FYROM. Are you really extremely ignorant or intentionally lying as usual? The name "Republic of Macedonia" will never be officially recognised, unless of course FYROM someday decides to stay forever outside NATO and the EU. Miskin 11:35, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
As the ancient Greeks did not recognize Macedonia as a Hellenic nation, there is absolutely no point in regonizing the Hellenic Republic (Greece) claim to be the righteous owner of the term Macedonian. Since ancient Macedonia is non-Hellenic, any claims to ownership of the name (whose people were spread across the ancient world by Alexander himself) as exclusively Greek is a distortion of history. 132.205.45.148 18:36, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It is quite annoying to misinterpret ancient history. What's the deal, are you only following Demosthenes positions? Fortunately, if one is really interested about ancient history, there are many evidence that macedonians are just another Greek group, like Spartans or Athenians. There were a lot of people opposing Demosthenes, just study the history before and during the reign of Alexander the Great. The Slavs came to Balkans around the 7th century a.D. and all the names Alexander, Phillip etc are of Greek origin and have greek etymology. Matia.gr 12:04, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The two parts of Ireland are working for a union, we only have one Germany for the last 15 years, I 'm not aware of a second China. Will FYROM join Greece? Will FYROM dream, like Bulgary surely did one century ago, of "Aegean Macedonia", an exit to sea? Have you studied ancient history? Have you checked out the wikis about Demosthenes and other people of Alexander's era? Surely Demosthenes called Macedonians barbarians, not Greek. Do you know he built an army against Alexander with Persian gold? Are you aware of Demosthenes' political ambitions? Do you know that there were many people in Athens who disagreed with Demosthenes? I understand the right of FYROM to exist and their need for self-identification. And I want the people of Skopje to live free and happy. But what about my need and right for self-identification? How can you deprive my right to call myself Macedonian. This name is active in the Greek history for more than 2000 years. It's not something forgotten or a myth. Perhaps if FYROM choose the name of Atlantis it would be different... It's not true that only ancient macedonians names were Greek. All of them, not just their kings, were Greeks and believed it. The books exist, and even the wikis are right here available, you just have to read them. Finally, I want to emphasize that wikipedia is not the place to change the facts or to change history. Matia.gr 00:21, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What was the motivation behind choosing the name "Macedonia" for FYROM? Maybe it might be relevant to look at any documentated evidence of the thought process behind this. I wonder why it wouldn't have been safer to choose the name "Rome" for the country. That way they could have a much better territortial claim, claiming that they were the modern day Roman empire. :) I wonder if Italy would have had any objections... -- Rebroad 09:12, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm sick and tired of this nonsense. I haven't heard any rational arguments about why shouldn't peopleX be called Macedonians (nationality). People equating Slavs and Slavic language, (Dutch = Dutch Germans, following that logic), people claiming that people X are ashamed of their Slavic heritage (what a nonsense, we would equally be ashamed of any irrational add-ons), greek and bulgarian national-chauvinists, people equating democacy with majorization, people that simply didn't manage to see the ripe version of the poll (Geogre). Facts, numbers, comparative situations, international organizations, media, books of references all calling peopleX Macedonians, all this blatantly ignored. Not to mention self-determination. Not to mention a violation of NPOV policy. I have already warned everybody about ethnic majorization that would, and is already happening to this article/poll, and I haven't seen some steps to prevent that. I mean, yes, I can put this topic to some Wiki IRC channels of friendly countries, and probably get some more votes on the "Macedonian" side, but is that the point of Wikipedia? Wikipedia is about truth, Wikipedia is about freedom, Wikipedia is about knowledge. I can barely see that in this poll. This is already ruining the image of Wikipedia, failing to accept that there is such a thing called Macedonians (nationality), that this is commonly known in the entire world, and barely causes confusion - that is a great shift from reality. I guess the English administration does not see the seriousness required when such delicate themes are discussed, nor it cannot foresee the grave consequences of this adventure. Allowing discrimination on ethnic or quasihistorical basis is a serious human rights issue, and most admins should be aware that they have the responsibility to prevent that. To make myself clear, I will hardly accept the relevance of this poll, regardless who wins. I'm rather wikidepressed right now, so I'm thinking of quitting of the Macedonian project. I might be off this discussion for a while, meanwhile, I kindly reccomend for this article to be called Macedonian Apes. That will spare "everybody" (the admins and the nationalists) from trouble. Now, I'll climb up my FYROM tree and parasite some bananas. -- FlavrSavr 02:36, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
To the user who consistenly tries to change the number of the Macedonian Slavs in Greece to 962: The numbers regard the number of INDIGENOUS Macedonian Slavs with Greek citizenship, what you quote is the number of legal emigrants from RoM living in Greece. If you had paid any attention to the discussion before (you haven't), you would have found out that there was a dispute whether the article should include only the Greek government estimate (10,000) or estimates from other sources, which, PLEASE PAY ATTENTION, amount to as high as 350,000 people. If you wanna continue to substitute 962 for 10,000, I'll find myself forced to add the other sources, as well - not only the Greek government estimate of 10,000 but also the one of Helsinki watch (240,000) and the speculations of the Macedonian government (up to 350,000). Your choice. VMORO 21:31, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
Hey VMORO, you should insert those edits and references. I mean, Helsinki Watch is a credible organization, right? However, take it easy with that attitude man - if you're on the ball maybe its cooler to just do the edit for the article's sake: what's the point of being one-up on an anon? -- Paletakis 13:58, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I see lively discussion in this section and I would like to draw your eyes further up the page, to the currently ongoing poll. See top of the page. Zocky 14:09, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The FYROM government will also claim that Macedonian Slavs have nothing to do with Bulgarians and they'll give you demographics with Macedonian Slavs existing in the 19 century. They will also tell you that Northern Greece is an occupied territory, and in order to back this up they'll come up with data that shows Greek Macedonian population being 95% Macedonian Slav. Quoting what they think or say doesn't make you look very intelligent. As for the Helsinki Watch, I'm curious to know how out of 240,000 supressed Macedonian Slavs in Greece, less than 1000 vote for their political party. But you didn't know that did you? How come most Greek Macedonians I know have never met a "Slavo-phone" in their lives? Oh, I know, it's because of those cursed Greeks. They are hiding them so well and don't allow them to speak their languages so nobody has ever realised that they exist. I bet those hairy Greeks smell bad too. Miskin 09:25, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It is an ethnic slur to call someone a Slav? Can someone explain why Macedonian Slav is a slur when Swiss German or Dutch-Flemish or Greek Cypriot are not? If the argument is that "that's what they call themselves" and calling them anything else amounts to a serious violation of their human rights, what about all those peoples who call themselves one thing and are called something entirely different by the rest of the world? The Germans are Deutscher, Hungarians are Magyar, Albanians are Shqiptar, Dutchmen are Nederlander, Finns are Suomen, Greeks are Hellenes, and so on and so forth.-- Theathenae 22:02, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The problem with calling people X "Macedonians" is the implication that they have a special status or special connection to Macedonia that the rest of the Macedonian population, including an ethnic group that has demonstrably lived there much longer than people X and happens to be in the majority today, does not. And it's downhill from then on: special status means special rights; people X are the Chosen People. "Macedonia for the Macedonians".-- Theathenae 10:02, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Anyone wondering where did the word "Slav" derive its negative connotation from? In the absence of true arguments, political and historical, official FYROM diplomacy often resorts to the "I'm offended" cliche in every mention of the "S" word. This has nothing to do with what the rest of the world thinks of FYROM, the majority of its inhabitants, and the rest of the Slavs. (And hopefully, this won't ever affect the world's view of the Slavs.) This is merely a diplomatic tactic, duplicated here in order to create confusion and spread false impressions. People should focus on the real arguments and totally disregard this hilarious claim. Etz Haim 13:27, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
May I ask that if "slav" is slur to slavomacedonians why "greek" do you think is not slur to the greek macedonians. (If the name "Macedonian Slavs" of the article change to "Macedonians" it will be very offencive to greek and simply POV. -- Lucinos 08:32, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I still don't understand what's your problem with the term Slav Macedonians. So, it doesn't matter if Macedonia has a greek history of more than 2000 years, and only matters the 50 or 150 last years of the people self-identifying themselvers as Macedonians. I wonder what would happen if Greece instead of a pacifist nation were warmonger. And I 'll never understand why people of FYROM cannot find something from their history to use as a name.
See [ http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0 This is falsification of Etymology! Vergina 19:38, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I can't read Slavophonic Macedonian, but I think that Wiki article claims that Makedonia is from Make + Don (make=mother, don=earth)? That sounds pretty false to me. Decius 12:15, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I can't read enough to tell in what manner that alleged etymology is given (as a speculative hypothesis or as fact). Decius 12:21, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Mother earth". "the Mother land". Suggesting no doubt that Macedonia is the age-old homeland of the Macedonian Slavs? See, politics & nationalism do begin to infringe on history, which is why I'm concerned with this issue---but the nationalists who make such claims don't represent the position of the entire people. Decius 12:49, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Ottamu, Makedonia oznachuva Majka Zemja" (roughly transliterated), means, so far as I can tell, "Therefore, Macedonia means Mother Land". Decius 14:04, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
By the way, don't take offense to the term Slavophonic Macedonian, because the language of the modern Egyptians is called Egyptian Arabic. Decius 14:49, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the fuller translation. I'm wondering who originated that alleged etymology. The article should definitely make it clear that it is a speculation (& I'm sure it's wrong). Does that idea emanate from a linguist at least? I wouldn't assume that it does. Decius 16:16, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It was put into the article so-far-as-I-can-tell by anonymous user 84.177.113.93 (01:42 8 May 2005) without a reference for it or authoritative name mentioned. Decius 16:39, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The Egyptians - Macedonians parallel works pretty well, because, although their language is Arabic (the peopleX's language is Macedonian, officialy, not Macedonian Slavic), and although there are groups (the
Copts) that are more likely to have more in common with the "true" Egyptians, their right to declare themselves seems indisputed, while peopleX's right is denied.
Your parallel is based on a false assumption: That just like "Egyptian", the name "Macedonian" has always referred to an distinct ethnic group (rather than a group which recognises itself ethnic Greek). In other words, you're taken for granted that the entire world is under the FYROM government's nationalist propaganda. Until you debate and make a point on this, bringing up such bad exaples will only makes look rather stupid. I hope the demographics provided by User:Vergina have convinced you that nobody outside FYROM buys the existence of "Macedonian nation" prior to Tito. Basically if it makes you feel any better, the only link between Slavo-Macedonian and the real Macedonians, is that both of them are part of a greater ethnic group (the former being Bulgarian and the latter Greek). Miskin 14:40, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The only difference here being that Belgians and Egyptians describe peoples entirely contained within the nations of Belgium and Egypt. Belgium and Egypt occupy the whole of Belgium and Egypt, not a mere 38%, and nobody but a Belgian or Egyptian would describe his or herself that way. Also, none of the ethnic groups in Belgium or Egypt claims the exclusive right to call itself ethnic "Belgians" or ethnic "Egyptians" speaking "Belgian" or "Egyptian". A truer parallel would be if the Walloons started claiming that they were the Belgians (and that the Flemings were irrelevant; the more hotheaded "Belgians" would openly say that Flanders should be "liberated" and the Flemings should leave). As for Palestinians, the Israelis have consciously rejected the term to describe themselves, whereas the (non-people X) Macedonians have never stopped calling themselves Macedonians.-- Theathenae 11:37, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
See Etymology of the Name Macedonia, Macedonians! The Macedonia region took its name from the inhabitants, the Macedonians or Makednoi See Herodot I,56 I,56. By these lines when they came to him Croesus was pleased more than by all the rest, for he supposed that a mule would never be ruler of the Medes instead of a man, and accordingly that he himself and his heirs would never cease from their rule. Then after this he gave thought to inquire which people of the Hellenes he should esteem the most powerful and gain over to himself as friends. And inquiring he found that the Lacedemonians and the Athenians had the pre-eminence, the first of the Dorian and the others of the Ionian race. For these were the most eminent races in ancient time, the second being a Pelasgian and the first a Hellenic race: and the one never migrated from its place in any direction, while the other was very exceedingly given to wanderings; for in the reign of Deucalion this race dwelt in Pthiotis, and in the time of Doros the son of Hellen in the land lying below Ossa and Olympos, which is called Histiaiotis; and when it was driven from Histiaiotis by the sons of Cadmos, it dwelt in Pindos and was called Makednian; and thence it moved afterwards to Dryopis, and from Dryopis it came finally to Peloponnesus, and began to be called Dorian.
http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_herodotus_1.htm
Vergina 19:36, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Dear Dionyziz, you claim that you would allow for Macedonians to call themselves as they like but that for the sake of clarity, they should call themselves Macedonian Slavs. Have you considered the following two possibilities: 1. The present article "Macedonian Slavs" could also be titled "Macedonians (nationality)" and all articles that contain the different applications of the term "Macedonians" would have modifiers such as "nation", "geographic" or "Ancient" to make distinction; 2. The term "Macedonian Slavs" is not clear on its own because of all the Slavic people living in the region who do not consider themselves as Macedonians and because the Slavic nature of its own is disputed. In addition, I would like to underline that research has shown that the use of the term "Macedonians" in international relations as well as on the web refers to "People X" in most of the cases whereas the term "Macedonian Slavs" is outdated as of 2001. For more information, consider the various sources displayed above. Clarity is, therefore, an argument that needs to be reconsidered. Thank you for your attention. Ivica83 12:30, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Monday, 16 September, 2002, 03:51 GMT 04:51 UK: Many hope the vote will help cement the peace process which brought an end to last year's conflict between Orthodox Christian Macedonians and the minority Muslim ethnic Albanians. [2]
Monday, 8 September, 2003, 11:39 GMT 12:39 UK: (interview with the Prince of Jordan) the list continues Moldovans versus Russians, Hungarians versus Romanians, Macedonians versus Greeks - these are all Christians and I haven't yet touched on Rwanda and Sierra Leone. [3]
The make up of the population of Yugoslavia at the time of World War Two was extremely complex. Broadly speaking, there were two main ethnic groups - the Serbs and the Croats - plus three other smaller ethnic groupings - Albanians, Macedonians, Slovenes. [4]
Monday, 18 October, 2004, 15:52 GMT 16:52 UK: Of a population of two million people 62% are Macedonians and a quarter ethnic Albanians. [5]
Friday, 22 October, 2004, 15:39 GMT 16:39 UK: Al-Jazeera broadcast a statement by the militant group called the Islamic Army in Iraq which claimed it had killed two Macedonians whom it accused of spying for the US. [6]
Sunday, 13 March, 2005, 23:53 GMT UK: Many ethnic Macedonians, who make up a majority of the population, are unhappy with the electoral changes. [7]
As a matter of fact, a growing number of BBC articles uses the term Macedonians as the end of 2001 approaches: [8], [9], [10], and the list of Macedonians is too huge to bother continuing this list... check out for CNN, also... -- FlavrSavr 15:19, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've been asked to comment, so for what it's worth:
The best we can do is to continue what the article has done a fairly good job of doing: outlining and describing the conflict about the ethnic identity and rightful name of, er, People X.
As for the best article title, we might pick something like:
This problem is similar to the "Palestinian issue". Wikipedia has utterly failed to identify the true Palestinians. It can't do so, and never will. The articles should merely describe the major POVs about who really owns the region of Palestine. Clearly the Palestinian Arabs are the major claimants: they're the loudest, they have the widest political support, etc. But determining the veracity of their claims is outside Wikipedia's purview.
This is not a blog, not an opinion board, it's an encyclopedia. When there are multiple POVs about what's what, we can only describe each POV fairly and accurately. Let's do that for people X, too.
Thanks for listening.
-- Uncle Ed (talk) (not speaking as Mediator, but merely as an "old hand" around here)
CLEOPATRA SBORUVALA NA MAKEDONSKI JAZIK
CLEOPATRA SPOKE IN THE MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE! See: http://www.makedonskosonce.com/broevis/2005/sonce570.pdf/50_52_donski.pdf Vergina 16:39, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Desite what the wikipedia article supports, major academics categorise acient Macedonian as a dialect of North-Western Greek. So it does lie about the Greek language. Miskin 14:28, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
So much for the "Greek-speaking aristocracy and Macedonian-speaking population" theory... What's up next? Etz Haim 15:04, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Which people is the "Macedonian Slavs"? Macedonian Slavs are the Bulgarian people of Yugoslavian Vardarska Banovina.See map: Vardarska Banovina. 1945 ago no slav people existed as Macedonians.Only Serbs and Bulgars. See ethnographic maps: http://img67.exs.cx/img67/6475/brailsford.jpg
http://img67.exs.cx/img67/8450/MapbyAmiBoue1847.jpg
http://img67.exs.cx/img67/5561/Safariknarodi.jpg
http://img10.exs.cx/img10/3681/mackenzie.jpg
http://img56.exs.cx/img56/5857/VolkerkartevonMittel-undSudosteuropa.jpg
http://img56.exs.cx/img56/3069/slaveni-karta.jpg
http://img57.exs.cx/img57/1241/ResizeofEuropavolkerundsprachenkarte.jpg
http://img57.exs.cx/img57/8127/1880-geoturkeyethnographical.jpg ( ????)
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/races_balkan_shepherd_1923.jpg
http://img57.exs.cx/img57/7518/macedonia_19192.jpg
http://www.cjcr.cam.ac.uk/gateway/maps/Ethnic16.gif
See Yugoslavian ethnographic 1921-1931(Serbs,Croats,Slovenians): http://www.univ.trieste.it/~storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolazJugosl1921-31.jpg
IMRO,the Macedonian revolutionary organisation,was likewise a Bulgarian organization.
See "Invitation from the central revolutionary commitee to all Bulgarians"
http://img24.exs.cx/img24/7216/Invitation1893.jpg
All of the documents are in Bulgarian language.
Vergina 07:56, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Vergina 07:30, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Vergina, I must state that your I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY!!! attitude and your bad English is doing much damage for the Greek POV. However, thanks for proving that: 1. Greece/most Greeks/some Greeks (I wouldn't like to make generalizations) actually, still deny that PeopleX are a distinct nation. 2. That maps provide a fine evidence that most of the population in northern Greece (except Chalcidice) was in fact non-Greek. -- FlavrSavr 23:16, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The United Nations clearly recognize PeopleX as Macedonians. You can check out the Google search that Zocky has performed - while Macedonians gave 170 results, the Macedonian Slavs search gave only 5 results, of them:
From this I can conclude that the UN refers to peopleX as Macedonians. Given the fact that the United Nations is one of the most reliable sources when dealing such matters, I do believe this fact should be incorporated in the Agreed Facts section, rather than in the lower "International Organizations part" of the poll. I will do that, unless somebody provides me evidence that the UN does not refer to peopleX as Macedonians. Also, It would be good to stress that the term Macedonians is rarely used (in international media) to describe a person from Northern Greece or Southwest Bulgaria.. -- FlavrSavr 20:43, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The provisional designation used by the UNO, EU, and NATO is Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia ( FYROM) Vergina 23:00, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Vergina 06:49, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
RMS... like Richard Stallman, and I dont think he 'll have a problem with it. Matia.gr 00:40, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It is a fact that the slavic population FYROMs are not the Macedonian (ethnicity). Whether the Macedonian (ethnicity) Greeks are or not is not discussion-subject here.Nevertheless!
Are Alexander I,king of Macedonia not Greek? See Herodot(Kalliopi IX 45):
As soon as he had said this, Alexander rode back to the camp, and returned to the station assigned him.
The Macedonian Language(Greek) 45.Οι δε έπει ταύτα ήκουσαν, αυτίκα είποντο ες τάς φύλακας. Άπικομένοισι δε έλεγε Αλέξανδρος τάδε' "Άνδρες Αθηναίοι, παραθήκην υμίν τα έπεα τάδε τίθεμαι, απόρρητα ποιεύμενος προς μηδένα λέγειν υμέας άλλον ή Παυσανίην, μη με και διαφθείρητε• ου γαρ αν έλεγον, ει μη μεγάλως έκηδόμην συναπάσης της Ελλάδος• αυτός τε γαρ Έλλην γένος ειμί τώρχαίον, και άντ' ελευθέρης δεδουλωμένην ουκ αν έθέλοιμι όραν την Ελλάδα. Λέγω δε ων ότι Μαρδονίω τε και τη στρατιή τα σφάγια ου δύναται καταθύμια γενέσθαι" πάλαι γαρ αν έμάχεσθε• νυν δε οι δέδοκται τα μεν σφάγια εάν χαίρειν, άμα ήμέρη δε διαφωσκούση συμβολήν ποιέεσθαι' κα-ταρρώδηκε γαρ μη πλέονες συλλεχθήτε, ως εγώ εικάζω. Προς ταύτα ετοιμάζεστε. ην δε άρα υπερβάληται την συμβολήν Μαρδόνιος και μη ποιήται, λιπαρέετε μένοντες• όλιγέων γαρ σφι ήμερέων λείπεται αιτία. Ην δε υμίν ο πόλεμος όδε κατά νόον τελευτήση, μνησθήναί τίνα χρή και έμέο έλευθερώσιος περί, ός Ελλήνων είνεκα έργον ούτω παράβολον έργασμαι υπό προθυμίης, έθέλων υμίν δηλώσαι την διάνοιαν την Μαρδονίου, ίνα μη έπιπέσωσι υμίν εξαίφνης οι βάρβαροι μη προσδεκομέ-νοισί κω. Ειμί δε Αλέξανδρος ό Μακεδών." Ό μεν ταύτα είπας άπήλαυνε οπίσω ες το στρατόπεδον και την έωυτού τάξι (Herodot)
"...there were representatives from Aitoloi, Acarnanes, Macedonians, people homoglossoi (speaking the same Greek language)..." Macedonians=Not Macedonian Slavs Vergina 23:31, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
MAKEDONIJA and MACEDONIA is diferent names
Macedonians, wants to be called "MAKEDONCI" and for his state wants to be called "MAKEDONIJA"
Greeks have province "MACEDONIA" and people called "Macedonans". Those names is not identical. Greek`s distraint for useing this name is unmeaning
The most important of all those arguments is that someone lives in county named "Makedonija" and he wants to be called "Mekedonac". In the name of what someother interdict this name because likewise to substantive (antecedent) "Macedonia" 194.106.167.14 01:06, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 194.106.167.14 01:23, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Vergina, this argument has been gone through before: the Macedonian Royals were of Greek descent, that is known, but there is still uncertainty whether the Macedonians could be considered Hellenic. I am of Greek descent on my paternal lineage (the Hellenized version of my name would be Alexandros Gheorghiou [18] See number 3693) from Braila, but I am Romanian myself---that argument is not enough. If you got something more, post it here also: Talk:Macedon. Decius 03:20, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Obviously, the very fact that Alexander the I made it clear that he was of Greek descent is because he was a King of the non-Greek ancient Macedonians. Decius 04:45, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, but even though I don't believe the ancient Macedonians were Greek doesn't mean I will vote in support of people X being called Macedonians---nope, I can't do that. By the way, some of those who voted don't enough edits to qualify: see 80.74.168.40. Decius 06:54, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well, I couldn't rise against anything if I wasn't even born yet. Maybe they were busy. I don't even know much about that phase of history, so I can't comment. Decius 07:24, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That's because I'm a Latin Lover. But let's not continue this on this talk page. There's plenty other stuff going on. Decius 07:40, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Alright, I got a question: how many Slavophone Macedonians would you estimate are in Greek Macedonia, if you want to take a guess? I bet there's more than the Greeks claim, but I don't know. Decius 07:52, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Apparently the arguments play no role in the voting!
Sure - but do you honestly expect that if this panel of yours decides tomorrow that the decision will be "Macedonians" without a qualifier, the decision will be accepted by the Greeks? And how long do you think that such a decision will last? The same regards the preservation of the status quo - "Macedonian Slavs". Quite obviously, this is not a working variant. VMORO 00:09, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
The point about the panel of neutral editors s surely that their decision would be final; the article would be protected against moves, so that it wouldn't matter whether nationalist editors complained — there'd be nothing that they could do, and editors who simply wanted to write better articles could ignore them. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 11:46, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree that the committee of neutral editors should decide on this matter. Of course, no ethnic ties should be allowed for the members of this committee. No politics, also. I am a member of people X, so this can be seen as a POV: but, actually no significant (non-Greek, and non-Bulgarian) media, international organization or books refer to the modern non-People X inhabitants of Macedonia as "Macedonians", so I wouldn't be so confident about that "Macedonians" is clearly not a suitable name. Macedonians (region) option should also be considered. However, every qualifier mentioned above sounds good to me, except maybe "Modern Macedonians"... that is rather strange. -- FlavrSavr 08:09, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
By "Modern", I just mean "Present day", i.e. current usage of the word. Regardless of it's historical accuracy, if everyone agrees that a large majority of the world now uses the term "Macedonians" to refer to the inhabitants of FYROM, then why not rename Macedonian Slavs to Modern Macedonians or Present day Macedonians. I'm sure there are plenty of words which have had their meanings change over the years. The important thing to to accept modern day usage, WITHOUT distorting history. -- Rebroad 09:18, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ancient Macedonian language MATIA 10:56, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The term "Ethnic Macedonians" or "Macedonians" ,for the Slavs of FYROM, is false! Would consider that the ethnic Macedonian symbols ( Vergina Sun) are Greek symbols. Here an again saying gives. The flag of FYROM is not "Ethnic Macedonian symbol"!
the flag of the Krushevo Republic is Bulgarian Symbol of IMRO.
One of the ideas non-partisan international observers have toyed with in the past is to use the native Slavic terms Republika Makedonija for the country and Makedonski for the people and language even in English, along the lines of Republika Srpska instead of Serbian Republic, Belarus instead of White Russia or Byelorussia, Moldova instead of Moldavia and Iran and Farsi instead of Persia and Persian. Makedonski makes it abundantly clear that it is a Slavic language; Macedonian does not. Accordingly, the terms Macedonia and Macedonian(s) would be reserved for the wider region or specifically for Macedonia (Greece) as the modern counterpart of ancient Macedon.-- Theathenae 15:28, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Tell me one reason, why should Macedonians be reserved for the greek inhabitants of the region instead of Makedoniai, or whatever the greek translation is. -- FlavrSavr 15:44, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It's no use saying the original ancient Macedonians spoke Greek if that hasn't been proven. It makes a person look biased and dogmatic when they say things like that (doesn't help this argument). Decius 15:59, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree that they may likely have all taken up Greek by the time Rome conquered Macedon, that's why I said original ancient Macedonians---and now you defined what you meant. Decius 16:06, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
FlavrSavr, what's your source for that info? Just trying to verify, not necessarily questioning that info. Decius 16:25, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You contradict yourself. "The ancient Macedonian population that accepted the Slavic language in the Middle Ages"? The ancient Macedonian population accepted no Slavic language. The Macedonians were already mediaeval Greeks by the time the Slavs arrived. And I'm still waiting for an answer in regards to Republika Makedonija and Makedonski.-- Theathenae 16:35, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Decie, I am intrigued. I'd like to see your sources regarding the survival of the ancient Macedonian language beyond the Roman conquest.-- Theathenae 17:15, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I said there are indications---such as the Fifth Century AD lexicon of Hesychius which includes Macedonian words about a century before Slavic arrival---though some words doesn't necessarily prove language survival as long as those who passed down the words remembered that they were Macedonian words---but an AD survival is possible. Decius 17:20, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't know how many are in Hesychius. It's to be expected that some words would outlive the language, so Hesychius might be inconclusive regarding language survival---unless he noted it was still being spoken. Decius 17:32, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yes! That is a compromise proposal!Until a solution is found in the UNO. The article "Republic Macedonia"should be renamed in "Republika Makedonija". "Republika Makedonija" should be untranslatable. That is the Constitutions name of the country. See UNO proposal (Nimitz).
The silence of people like FlavrSavr regarding the Republika Makedonija/Makedonski proposal is deafening. What I'm really hanging for is for a person X to come out and say Republika Makedonija and Makedonski are offensive slurs that are tantamount to a gross violation of their right to self-determination and their human rights in general. Now that would be a hoot! :D-- Theathenae 17:57, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Do the Fyromian not want to accept the Constitutions name of the state as "Republika Makedonija"?
Agree. Use "Macedonians" for the inhabitants of the greater Macedonia region, and "Makedonski" (or the appropriate native term) for the people that define themselves so. Etz Haim 22:44, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Dear god... I have just noticed this...
... please, although this poll is seemingly absurd, do prevent vandalism. -- FlavrSavr 02:19, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Dear FlavrSavr can you explain why is vandalism the expression of a certain view. Even if you strongly disagree with this? I wrote the above statements and they are absolutely true. On the contrary your attermpt to delete my views is censorship and vandalism. Is it not true the fact that in FYROM's school books there are maps of a "liberated" "united" Macedonia? Is it not true that Political parties in FYROM encourage signs "MACEDONIANS ARE MACEDONIAN...NOT GREEK...MACEDONIA CONQUERED GREECE AND ONE DAY ALL OF MACEDONIA WILL BE TOGETHER AGAIN!!!!! MAKEDONIA ZA MAKEDONCITE!!!!!" Similar posts were posted in this page a few days ago isn't it?
Dear FlavrSavr, the only way to read this discussion page is through the history link [diff by diff]. You disagree about that 1923 [or 1948 or whatever] "plan". What about the constitutional changes that your country have done the last decade? You do remember what quotes have been removed and I do suppose that you can see the similarities with that "plan". Now, the destabilization. It has been mentioned before, the existance of two Koreas and two Germanys etc. Ask yourself how those countries were split apart, check history and think about it. Can you see a pattern there? MATIA 10:01, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Do you believe that ordinary people of Eastern Germany hated the ordinary people of West Germany? Right now we have one united Germany. Can you understand the motives behind such moves? MATIA 11:30, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
EXECUTIVE BOARD CONSEIL EXECUTIF
F.B (2004) OS 2 March 2004
Note for the attention of the members of the Executive Board
References concerning "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" and persons belonging to a minority or speaking a minority language outside the country
Taking into account Resolution (95) 23 adopted by the Committee of Ministers on 19 October 1995 at the 547th meeting of Ministers' Deputies, the Secretarial is hereby instructed to use the following references provisionally for all purposes within the Council of Europe pending settlement of the difference which has arisen over the name of the State in question. They are to be used in all documents prepared by the Secretariat of the Council of Europe.
The Parliamentary Assembly, the Congress of Local and Regional Authorities of Europe, the European Court of Human Rights and independent monitoring mechanisms are strongly encouraged to use these references. However, texts emanating or prepared under instructions from the Parliamentary Assembly, the Congress of Local and Regional Authorities of Europe, the European Court of Human Rights, independent monitoring mechanisms, as well as reports, declarations and other texts attributed to individual Parliamentarians, representatives to the Congress, judges of the Court or members of independent monitoring mechanisms will not have to be changed if they are not in line with the agreed references.
As regards the country
Country:
"The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"
The inverted commas are an integral pan of the reference. When the term appears within a sentence, the (the) must be written with a small (t)
Adjective/ Nationality:
of "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" Examples: the government of "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", the police of "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" citizen of "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"
Adjective referring to culture: Macedonian (Slav) Examples: Macedonian (Slav) traditions. Macedonian (Slav) culture
Language: Macedonian (Slav)
As regards persons belonging to a minority or speaking a minority language outside the country
Persons/group: Macedonian(s) accompanied by a footnote reading �Terminology of self-identification used by the person(s) concerned�
Adjective: Macedonian (Slav) Examples: Macedonian (Slav) traditions. Macedonian (Slav) associations, Macedonian (Slav) schools
Language: Macedonian (Slav)
Jan Kleijssen, Director of the Secretary General's Private Office -- 10:33, 23 Jun 2005 Theathenae
A well known case in the Republic of Macedonia. This is a good example exactly why we shouldn't be using Macedonian Slavs term. This wasn't a resolution, it was only a reccomendation that was immediately cancelled due to mass NGO organized protest called Don't you FYROM me!. Thousands of letters were send to Walter Schwimmer, the chairman of this organization. Also official governmental reaction followed, that the CoE was deconstructing its basic princple. It was immediately withdrawn. In fact Walter Schwimmer himself stated that such a resolution never even existed. The Council of Europe still refers to people X as Macedonians. See: [21] -- FlavrSavr 11:08, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
A question to FlavrSavr. At your previews message you said that as long as the term Slav Macedonians is being used by WIKIPEDIA ".....As an admin of the Macedonian Wikipedia I found it very hard to convince a wider macedonian public to participate in the macedonian wiki project ...." It looks like blackmailing isn't?
People in Northern Greece call themselves Macedonians and they have strong Greek identity. Are n't those Macedonians entitled to use those terms? Should we answer people of FYROM "Don't you (steal) MACEDONIA (from) me!" ? MATIA 11:36, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
On more than a one occasions I've been to UN meetings and have had discusions about how does this FYROM/RoM business work. I know that this is only marginally relevant to this article, but it is an illustration about how far away from everyday realities the anti-Macedonian position is here.
In the UN this the usual state of affairs:
RoM delegations get to call it and themselves what they like AND everybody at the meeting is obliged to respond to them. Meaning, if a RoM delegate makes a statement "The Gov't of the RoM is of the opinion etc..." that statement is accepted as any other official statement from anyone else. No one, niether UN beurocrat nor country delegate, not event he Greek delegation, can explain failure to act or respond on the basis of "I don't know who this delegation represents" or "who was that?".
The catch is that RoM must respond if anyone from the UN or other member country delegations requests: "Can we have a comment/report from FYROM" - then their delegate must respond or take note and cannot ignore or use this as an excuse to ignore, in the sense of "that's not us, why bother?".
In practice the second applies only when there is a Greek dlegate or official in the room because, even though non-Greek delegates are mostly not concerned in the least, if anyone starts RoM-ing or Macedonian-ing the RoM delegates, the Greek delegations are obliged by automatism in the form of a prescription from the Greek Foreign Office to react with a usual statement which they keep in their pocket and heartlessly file with the particular meeting's secretary, often much to their own embarassment.
When there is no Greek at a UN meeting, the RoM delegation is habitually reffered to as RoM, "Macedonian delegation" and Macedonians.
I urge any Macedonian and Greek to when in NY visit the UN and attend a meeting - many of them are public. Maybe they get lucky to see one where there will be some delegates from one or both countries and see this practical compormise in action. Its almost cute, especially when the meeting brakes and they go altogether for a kafedaki!
If the wiki Greeks think this is impossible or outrageous - think twice: no UN decision can be above and higher than the UN charter and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which describe the rights related to self-determination and nationhood. The decision is just a temporary patch up about a technical naming convention: it is not a statement of politcal thought or siding in the international fora from a daily perspective. Of course, its very political in the country capitals - this I do not deny.
I hope the wiki Greeks don't come flaming at this, I understand it may go against their principled understanding of politics - but real life in the international political insitutions is much softer and measured than some of then seem to appreciate, or that is evident by some of the official statements or decisions.
Peace&love -- Modi 20:34, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What about the current Macedonians article?
Is this voting an attempt to justify the vandalizing of Macedonians? If the wiki about Macedonian Slavs replace the wiki about Macedonians would this be like vandalizing the original wiki, or not?
MATIA 11:25, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
VMORO, I find your concerns unnecessary. If we are to distinguish people X from other people inhabiting this region we can use Macedonians (nationality) or Macedonians (ethnic group). The Ancient Macedonians article should redirect to the current Macedon article. I really don't see any rational, legal, moral, historical or practical reason why Macedonians shouldn't be called Macedonians, except for maybe proving that they are a "nation" in quotation marks. Maybe we should call them Macedonian Apes, instead? This avoids confusion even more. They are undoubtedly of primate origin, plus this is how they are generally percieved by their neighbors. "Macedonian Apes are a nation of primate origin. They call themselves "Macedonians" and a "nation", but this is somewhat ambigious, since several other real peoples inhabit the region of Macedonia." -- FlavrSavr 03:45, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
For the sake of fairness, "we" is often used on Wikipedia to mean "we the writers of Wikipedia", and there's nothing presumptuous in asking "how are we going to do something". It's not like he said "we prefer it this way". Zocky 16:28, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Basically the entire debate and the arguments brought up by the Slavic crowd are a comical contradiction. Some people suggested that Macedonian Slavs (a nation with no official name yet) have to be referred to as "Macedonians", because that's how they recognise themselves. On the other hand, Macedonian Slav scholars claim that eventhough ancient Macedonians clearly viewed themselves as Greeks, they shouldn't be recognised as such because the Greeks didn't view them that way (something which is false anyway). Macedonian Slavs are so desperate to link a historical background to their artificial nation and their vary according to the circumstances. In other words, the fact that Slavo-Macedonians refer to themselves as Macedonians is something completely irrelevant to what they actually are in reality. In most academic sources that have no ethnic context they are referred as "Western Bulgarians". And as a last notice, Nothern Greeks today refer to themselves as Macedonians as well, while on the other hand ancient Macedonians referred to themselves as Northern Greeks. After agreeing with this, the Slavic crowd had better come up with a damn good reason as to why we should consider what FYROM calls itself more valid than real Macedonians/Northern Greeks. Miskin 14:43, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You're not in position to tell me what to do and not do. Macedonian Slavs have nothing to do with ancient Macedonians but the example that I brought up does, because it was an argument against the childish argument "Macedonians Slavs should be called Macedonians because that's how they want it". It aimed to explain how Macedonian Slavs base their claims on national myths rather than logic. It's very relevant and crystal clear. Whether you refuse or fail to understand it, it's your personal problem. Miskin 15:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
And is it any wonder why they want to be called Macedonians? Slavs are known to lack Slavic pride. We always hear how the Croats are "not in fact a Slavic people, we descend from ancient Iranians", and so on and so forth. This is a common tendency among Slavic speakers. Many seek to connect themselves with anything except Slav. That's what it comes down to. That's why they fear the term Slav. It is an "insult" to call them Slavs, even though they speak Slavic languages. Decius 15:25, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm not "threatening" anybody here so stick to the topic. I'll let VMORO do the threatening on this page, since he lives in the Republic and is within firing range. Decius 16:25, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Paletakis, thank you for proving that you're unable to participate in a healthy dialogue, you know, of the kind where people answer in respect to what has actually been said to them, reaching thus a mutual communication. The name "Macedonians" has been invented and used by people who recognised themselves as Greeks 2700 years ago. Today it's still used in the same area by people also recognise themselves as Macedonian Greeks. Obviously during all this time many ethnic groups managed to settle in Macedonia (including Slavs and Turks) but Greeks never ceased to be the majority until the area was ethnically cleansed. So due all the respect, but with what logical arguments do you expect us to let this name be monopolised by a people who is alien to both the real region of Macedonia and the historically known Macedonian people? But you can't answer that can you? Let me guess, Big Brother never told you that ancient Macedonians recognised themselves as Greeks nor that part of the Greek war of independence took place in Macedonia (which is understandable). What's most pathetic about you is that in order to desperately promote your national myths about a fictional huge Slav Macedonian minority being hidden in Northern Greece, you chose a username that would sound like a real Greek name and stupidly enough a Cretan, a region which has little if anything at all to do with Macedonia. It reminds me of the Danish-made Feta which is called "SALAKIS", another a pseudo-Cretan name, written in a ridiculous ancient Greek font in order to fool French consumers into believing that it's the real thing... Miskin 11:19, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
User:FlavrSavr, I never said that this argument has no political context. It has an all political, historical, practical and cultural context (and the list can go on). Basically to someone who has fundamental historical knowledge on the term "Macedonia", it's pretty self-explanatory why Macedonian Slavs should not be allowed monopolise the name "Macedonians". In one phrase: Because they're not. The reason I'm pointing out the term "Slavic crowd" is in order to make a linguistic distinction from the real Macedonians. You can call Greeks "Hellenic" if that makes you feel any better. A more realistic debate on this article, would be on whether or not we could actually consider FYROMians as an ethnic group different from Bulgarians, instead of whether or not they should be called "Macedonians". FYROMians is a Slavic ethnic group and Macedonians is a Hellenic. The word "Macedonia" itself is a Greek word that has no meaning in the Bulgarian dialect that's so ironically baptised "the Macedonian language". What more proof do you need in order to realise that not only you don't own that name, but you also have no connection to it? What's most ironic is that your Slavic ancestors have probably fought and died against the real Macedonians who were Greeks. The sense of irony comes when the new generations want to adapt the name and heritage of their historical enemies. Imagine suddenly all Greeks wishing to be called Ottomans or something similar (and claiming that Ottomans were never a Turkic people). Since you're not ashamed of it, I rest my case. But it's extremely ridiculous that at the same time your people thinks it has an ethnic pride... What would life be without a sense of irony? :) Miskin 11:19, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
And for crying out loud, the UN and NATO do not, not, NOT recognise "Macedonians" they only recognise FYROM. Are you really extremely ignorant or intentionally lying as usual? The name "Republic of Macedonia" will never be officially recognised, unless of course FYROM someday decides to stay forever outside NATO and the EU. Miskin 11:35, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
As the ancient Greeks did not recognize Macedonia as a Hellenic nation, there is absolutely no point in regonizing the Hellenic Republic (Greece) claim to be the righteous owner of the term Macedonian. Since ancient Macedonia is non-Hellenic, any claims to ownership of the name (whose people were spread across the ancient world by Alexander himself) as exclusively Greek is a distortion of history. 132.205.45.148 18:36, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It is quite annoying to misinterpret ancient history. What's the deal, are you only following Demosthenes positions? Fortunately, if one is really interested about ancient history, there are many evidence that macedonians are just another Greek group, like Spartans or Athenians. There were a lot of people opposing Demosthenes, just study the history before and during the reign of Alexander the Great. The Slavs came to Balkans around the 7th century a.D. and all the names Alexander, Phillip etc are of Greek origin and have greek etymology. Matia.gr 12:04, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The two parts of Ireland are working for a union, we only have one Germany for the last 15 years, I 'm not aware of a second China. Will FYROM join Greece? Will FYROM dream, like Bulgary surely did one century ago, of "Aegean Macedonia", an exit to sea? Have you studied ancient history? Have you checked out the wikis about Demosthenes and other people of Alexander's era? Surely Demosthenes called Macedonians barbarians, not Greek. Do you know he built an army against Alexander with Persian gold? Are you aware of Demosthenes' political ambitions? Do you know that there were many people in Athens who disagreed with Demosthenes? I understand the right of FYROM to exist and their need for self-identification. And I want the people of Skopje to live free and happy. But what about my need and right for self-identification? How can you deprive my right to call myself Macedonian. This name is active in the Greek history for more than 2000 years. It's not something forgotten or a myth. Perhaps if FYROM choose the name of Atlantis it would be different... It's not true that only ancient macedonians names were Greek. All of them, not just their kings, were Greeks and believed it. The books exist, and even the wikis are right here available, you just have to read them. Finally, I want to emphasize that wikipedia is not the place to change the facts or to change history. Matia.gr 00:21, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What was the motivation behind choosing the name "Macedonia" for FYROM? Maybe it might be relevant to look at any documentated evidence of the thought process behind this. I wonder why it wouldn't have been safer to choose the name "Rome" for the country. That way they could have a much better territortial claim, claiming that they were the modern day Roman empire. :) I wonder if Italy would have had any objections... -- Rebroad 09:12, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm sick and tired of this nonsense. I haven't heard any rational arguments about why shouldn't peopleX be called Macedonians (nationality). People equating Slavs and Slavic language, (Dutch = Dutch Germans, following that logic), people claiming that people X are ashamed of their Slavic heritage (what a nonsense, we would equally be ashamed of any irrational add-ons), greek and bulgarian national-chauvinists, people equating democacy with majorization, people that simply didn't manage to see the ripe version of the poll (Geogre). Facts, numbers, comparative situations, international organizations, media, books of references all calling peopleX Macedonians, all this blatantly ignored. Not to mention self-determination. Not to mention a violation of NPOV policy. I have already warned everybody about ethnic majorization that would, and is already happening to this article/poll, and I haven't seen some steps to prevent that. I mean, yes, I can put this topic to some Wiki IRC channels of friendly countries, and probably get some more votes on the "Macedonian" side, but is that the point of Wikipedia? Wikipedia is about truth, Wikipedia is about freedom, Wikipedia is about knowledge. I can barely see that in this poll. This is already ruining the image of Wikipedia, failing to accept that there is such a thing called Macedonians (nationality), that this is commonly known in the entire world, and barely causes confusion - that is a great shift from reality. I guess the English administration does not see the seriousness required when such delicate themes are discussed, nor it cannot foresee the grave consequences of this adventure. Allowing discrimination on ethnic or quasihistorical basis is a serious human rights issue, and most admins should be aware that they have the responsibility to prevent that. To make myself clear, I will hardly accept the relevance of this poll, regardless who wins. I'm rather wikidepressed right now, so I'm thinking of quitting of the Macedonian project. I might be off this discussion for a while, meanwhile, I kindly reccomend for this article to be called Macedonian Apes. That will spare "everybody" (the admins and the nationalists) from trouble. Now, I'll climb up my FYROM tree and parasite some bananas. -- FlavrSavr 02:36, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
To the user who consistenly tries to change the number of the Macedonian Slavs in Greece to 962: The numbers regard the number of INDIGENOUS Macedonian Slavs with Greek citizenship, what you quote is the number of legal emigrants from RoM living in Greece. If you had paid any attention to the discussion before (you haven't), you would have found out that there was a dispute whether the article should include only the Greek government estimate (10,000) or estimates from other sources, which, PLEASE PAY ATTENTION, amount to as high as 350,000 people. If you wanna continue to substitute 962 for 10,000, I'll find myself forced to add the other sources, as well - not only the Greek government estimate of 10,000 but also the one of Helsinki watch (240,000) and the speculations of the Macedonian government (up to 350,000). Your choice. VMORO 21:31, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
Hey VMORO, you should insert those edits and references. I mean, Helsinki Watch is a credible organization, right? However, take it easy with that attitude man - if you're on the ball maybe its cooler to just do the edit for the article's sake: what's the point of being one-up on an anon? -- Paletakis 13:58, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I see lively discussion in this section and I would like to draw your eyes further up the page, to the currently ongoing poll. See top of the page. Zocky 14:09, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The FYROM government will also claim that Macedonian Slavs have nothing to do with Bulgarians and they'll give you demographics with Macedonian Slavs existing in the 19 century. They will also tell you that Northern Greece is an occupied territory, and in order to back this up they'll come up with data that shows Greek Macedonian population being 95% Macedonian Slav. Quoting what they think or say doesn't make you look very intelligent. As for the Helsinki Watch, I'm curious to know how out of 240,000 supressed Macedonian Slavs in Greece, less than 1000 vote for their political party. But you didn't know that did you? How come most Greek Macedonians I know have never met a "Slavo-phone" in their lives? Oh, I know, it's because of those cursed Greeks. They are hiding them so well and don't allow them to speak their languages so nobody has ever realised that they exist. I bet those hairy Greeks smell bad too. Miskin 09:25, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It is an ethnic slur to call someone a Slav? Can someone explain why Macedonian Slav is a slur when Swiss German or Dutch-Flemish or Greek Cypriot are not? If the argument is that "that's what they call themselves" and calling them anything else amounts to a serious violation of their human rights, what about all those peoples who call themselves one thing and are called something entirely different by the rest of the world? The Germans are Deutscher, Hungarians are Magyar, Albanians are Shqiptar, Dutchmen are Nederlander, Finns are Suomen, Greeks are Hellenes, and so on and so forth.-- Theathenae 22:02, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The problem with calling people X "Macedonians" is the implication that they have a special status or special connection to Macedonia that the rest of the Macedonian population, including an ethnic group that has demonstrably lived there much longer than people X and happens to be in the majority today, does not. And it's downhill from then on: special status means special rights; people X are the Chosen People. "Macedonia for the Macedonians".-- Theathenae 10:02, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Anyone wondering where did the word "Slav" derive its negative connotation from? In the absence of true arguments, political and historical, official FYROM diplomacy often resorts to the "I'm offended" cliche in every mention of the "S" word. This has nothing to do with what the rest of the world thinks of FYROM, the majority of its inhabitants, and the rest of the Slavs. (And hopefully, this won't ever affect the world's view of the Slavs.) This is merely a diplomatic tactic, duplicated here in order to create confusion and spread false impressions. People should focus on the real arguments and totally disregard this hilarious claim. Etz Haim 13:27, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
May I ask that if "slav" is slur to slavomacedonians why "greek" do you think is not slur to the greek macedonians. (If the name "Macedonian Slavs" of the article change to "Macedonians" it will be very offencive to greek and simply POV. -- Lucinos 08:32, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I still don't understand what's your problem with the term Slav Macedonians. So, it doesn't matter if Macedonia has a greek history of more than 2000 years, and only matters the 50 or 150 last years of the people self-identifying themselvers as Macedonians. I wonder what would happen if Greece instead of a pacifist nation were warmonger. And I 'll never understand why people of FYROM cannot find something from their history to use as a name.
See [ http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0 This is falsification of Etymology! Vergina 19:38, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I can't read Slavophonic Macedonian, but I think that Wiki article claims that Makedonia is from Make + Don (make=mother, don=earth)? That sounds pretty false to me. Decius 12:15, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I can't read enough to tell in what manner that alleged etymology is given (as a speculative hypothesis or as fact). Decius 12:21, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Mother earth". "the Mother land". Suggesting no doubt that Macedonia is the age-old homeland of the Macedonian Slavs? See, politics & nationalism do begin to infringe on history, which is why I'm concerned with this issue---but the nationalists who make such claims don't represent the position of the entire people. Decius 12:49, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Ottamu, Makedonia oznachuva Majka Zemja" (roughly transliterated), means, so far as I can tell, "Therefore, Macedonia means Mother Land". Decius 14:04, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
By the way, don't take offense to the term Slavophonic Macedonian, because the language of the modern Egyptians is called Egyptian Arabic. Decius 14:49, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the fuller translation. I'm wondering who originated that alleged etymology. The article should definitely make it clear that it is a speculation (& I'm sure it's wrong). Does that idea emanate from a linguist at least? I wouldn't assume that it does. Decius 16:16, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It was put into the article so-far-as-I-can-tell by anonymous user 84.177.113.93 (01:42 8 May 2005) without a reference for it or authoritative name mentioned. Decius 16:39, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The Egyptians - Macedonians parallel works pretty well, because, although their language is Arabic (the peopleX's language is Macedonian, officialy, not Macedonian Slavic), and although there are groups (the
Copts) that are more likely to have more in common with the "true" Egyptians, their right to declare themselves seems indisputed, while peopleX's right is denied.
Your parallel is based on a false assumption: That just like "Egyptian", the name "Macedonian" has always referred to an distinct ethnic group (rather than a group which recognises itself ethnic Greek). In other words, you're taken for granted that the entire world is under the FYROM government's nationalist propaganda. Until you debate and make a point on this, bringing up such bad exaples will only makes look rather stupid. I hope the demographics provided by User:Vergina have convinced you that nobody outside FYROM buys the existence of "Macedonian nation" prior to Tito. Basically if it makes you feel any better, the only link between Slavo-Macedonian and the real Macedonians, is that both of them are part of a greater ethnic group (the former being Bulgarian and the latter Greek). Miskin 14:40, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The only difference here being that Belgians and Egyptians describe peoples entirely contained within the nations of Belgium and Egypt. Belgium and Egypt occupy the whole of Belgium and Egypt, not a mere 38%, and nobody but a Belgian or Egyptian would describe his or herself that way. Also, none of the ethnic groups in Belgium or Egypt claims the exclusive right to call itself ethnic "Belgians" or ethnic "Egyptians" speaking "Belgian" or "Egyptian". A truer parallel would be if the Walloons started claiming that they were the Belgians (and that the Flemings were irrelevant; the more hotheaded "Belgians" would openly say that Flanders should be "liberated" and the Flemings should leave). As for Palestinians, the Israelis have consciously rejected the term to describe themselves, whereas the (non-people X) Macedonians have never stopped calling themselves Macedonians.-- Theathenae 11:37, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
See Etymology of the Name Macedonia, Macedonians! The Macedonia region took its name from the inhabitants, the Macedonians or Makednoi See Herodot I,56 I,56. By these lines when they came to him Croesus was pleased more than by all the rest, for he supposed that a mule would never be ruler of the Medes instead of a man, and accordingly that he himself and his heirs would never cease from their rule. Then after this he gave thought to inquire which people of the Hellenes he should esteem the most powerful and gain over to himself as friends. And inquiring he found that the Lacedemonians and the Athenians had the pre-eminence, the first of the Dorian and the others of the Ionian race. For these were the most eminent races in ancient time, the second being a Pelasgian and the first a Hellenic race: and the one never migrated from its place in any direction, while the other was very exceedingly given to wanderings; for in the reign of Deucalion this race dwelt in Pthiotis, and in the time of Doros the son of Hellen in the land lying below Ossa and Olympos, which is called Histiaiotis; and when it was driven from Histiaiotis by the sons of Cadmos, it dwelt in Pindos and was called Makednian; and thence it moved afterwards to Dryopis, and from Dryopis it came finally to Peloponnesus, and began to be called Dorian.
http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_herodotus_1.htm
Vergina 19:36, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Dear Dionyziz, you claim that you would allow for Macedonians to call themselves as they like but that for the sake of clarity, they should call themselves Macedonian Slavs. Have you considered the following two possibilities: 1. The present article "Macedonian Slavs" could also be titled "Macedonians (nationality)" and all articles that contain the different applications of the term "Macedonians" would have modifiers such as "nation", "geographic" or "Ancient" to make distinction; 2. The term "Macedonian Slavs" is not clear on its own because of all the Slavic people living in the region who do not consider themselves as Macedonians and because the Slavic nature of its own is disputed. In addition, I would like to underline that research has shown that the use of the term "Macedonians" in international relations as well as on the web refers to "People X" in most of the cases whereas the term "Macedonian Slavs" is outdated as of 2001. For more information, consider the various sources displayed above. Clarity is, therefore, an argument that needs to be reconsidered. Thank you for your attention. Ivica83 12:30, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Monday, 16 September, 2002, 03:51 GMT 04:51 UK: Many hope the vote will help cement the peace process which brought an end to last year's conflict between Orthodox Christian Macedonians and the minority Muslim ethnic Albanians. [2]
Monday, 8 September, 2003, 11:39 GMT 12:39 UK: (interview with the Prince of Jordan) the list continues Moldovans versus Russians, Hungarians versus Romanians, Macedonians versus Greeks - these are all Christians and I haven't yet touched on Rwanda and Sierra Leone. [3]
The make up of the population of Yugoslavia at the time of World War Two was extremely complex. Broadly speaking, there were two main ethnic groups - the Serbs and the Croats - plus three other smaller ethnic groupings - Albanians, Macedonians, Slovenes. [4]
Monday, 18 October, 2004, 15:52 GMT 16:52 UK: Of a population of two million people 62% are Macedonians and a quarter ethnic Albanians. [5]
Friday, 22 October, 2004, 15:39 GMT 16:39 UK: Al-Jazeera broadcast a statement by the militant group called the Islamic Army in Iraq which claimed it had killed two Macedonians whom it accused of spying for the US. [6]
Sunday, 13 March, 2005, 23:53 GMT UK: Many ethnic Macedonians, who make up a majority of the population, are unhappy with the electoral changes. [7]
As a matter of fact, a growing number of BBC articles uses the term Macedonians as the end of 2001 approaches: [8], [9], [10], and the list of Macedonians is too huge to bother continuing this list... check out for CNN, also... -- FlavrSavr 15:19, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've been asked to comment, so for what it's worth:
The best we can do is to continue what the article has done a fairly good job of doing: outlining and describing the conflict about the ethnic identity and rightful name of, er, People X.
As for the best article title, we might pick something like:
This problem is similar to the "Palestinian issue". Wikipedia has utterly failed to identify the true Palestinians. It can't do so, and never will. The articles should merely describe the major POVs about who really owns the region of Palestine. Clearly the Palestinian Arabs are the major claimants: they're the loudest, they have the widest political support, etc. But determining the veracity of their claims is outside Wikipedia's purview.
This is not a blog, not an opinion board, it's an encyclopedia. When there are multiple POVs about what's what, we can only describe each POV fairly and accurately. Let's do that for people X, too.
Thanks for listening.
-- Uncle Ed (talk) (not speaking as Mediator, but merely as an "old hand" around here)
CLEOPATRA SBORUVALA NA MAKEDONSKI JAZIK
CLEOPATRA SPOKE IN THE MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE! See: http://www.makedonskosonce.com/broevis/2005/sonce570.pdf/50_52_donski.pdf Vergina 16:39, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Desite what the wikipedia article supports, major academics categorise acient Macedonian as a dialect of North-Western Greek. So it does lie about the Greek language. Miskin 14:28, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
So much for the "Greek-speaking aristocracy and Macedonian-speaking population" theory... What's up next? Etz Haim 15:04, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Which people is the "Macedonian Slavs"? Macedonian Slavs are the Bulgarian people of Yugoslavian Vardarska Banovina.See map: Vardarska Banovina. 1945 ago no slav people existed as Macedonians.Only Serbs and Bulgars. See ethnographic maps: http://img67.exs.cx/img67/6475/brailsford.jpg
http://img67.exs.cx/img67/8450/MapbyAmiBoue1847.jpg
http://img67.exs.cx/img67/5561/Safariknarodi.jpg
http://img10.exs.cx/img10/3681/mackenzie.jpg
http://img56.exs.cx/img56/5857/VolkerkartevonMittel-undSudosteuropa.jpg
http://img56.exs.cx/img56/3069/slaveni-karta.jpg
http://img57.exs.cx/img57/1241/ResizeofEuropavolkerundsprachenkarte.jpg
http://img57.exs.cx/img57/8127/1880-geoturkeyethnographical.jpg ( ????)
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/races_balkan_shepherd_1923.jpg
http://img57.exs.cx/img57/7518/macedonia_19192.jpg
http://www.cjcr.cam.ac.uk/gateway/maps/Ethnic16.gif
See Yugoslavian ethnographic 1921-1931(Serbs,Croats,Slovenians): http://www.univ.trieste.it/~storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolazJugosl1921-31.jpg
IMRO,the Macedonian revolutionary organisation,was likewise a Bulgarian organization.
See "Invitation from the central revolutionary commitee to all Bulgarians"
http://img24.exs.cx/img24/7216/Invitation1893.jpg
All of the documents are in Bulgarian language.
Vergina 07:56, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Vergina 07:30, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Vergina, I must state that your I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY!!! attitude and your bad English is doing much damage for the Greek POV. However, thanks for proving that: 1. Greece/most Greeks/some Greeks (I wouldn't like to make generalizations) actually, still deny that PeopleX are a distinct nation. 2. That maps provide a fine evidence that most of the population in northern Greece (except Chalcidice) was in fact non-Greek. -- FlavrSavr 23:16, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The United Nations clearly recognize PeopleX as Macedonians. You can check out the Google search that Zocky has performed - while Macedonians gave 170 results, the Macedonian Slavs search gave only 5 results, of them:
From this I can conclude that the UN refers to peopleX as Macedonians. Given the fact that the United Nations is one of the most reliable sources when dealing such matters, I do believe this fact should be incorporated in the Agreed Facts section, rather than in the lower "International Organizations part" of the poll. I will do that, unless somebody provides me evidence that the UN does not refer to peopleX as Macedonians. Also, It would be good to stress that the term Macedonians is rarely used (in international media) to describe a person from Northern Greece or Southwest Bulgaria.. -- FlavrSavr 20:43, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The provisional designation used by the UNO, EU, and NATO is Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia ( FYROM) Vergina 23:00, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Vergina 06:49, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
RMS... like Richard Stallman, and I dont think he 'll have a problem with it. Matia.gr 00:40, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It is a fact that the slavic population FYROMs are not the Macedonian (ethnicity). Whether the Macedonian (ethnicity) Greeks are or not is not discussion-subject here.Nevertheless!
Are Alexander I,king of Macedonia not Greek? See Herodot(Kalliopi IX 45):
As soon as he had said this, Alexander rode back to the camp, and returned to the station assigned him.
The Macedonian Language(Greek) 45.Οι δε έπει ταύτα ήκουσαν, αυτίκα είποντο ες τάς φύλακας. Άπικομένοισι δε έλεγε Αλέξανδρος τάδε' "Άνδρες Αθηναίοι, παραθήκην υμίν τα έπεα τάδε τίθεμαι, απόρρητα ποιεύμενος προς μηδένα λέγειν υμέας άλλον ή Παυσανίην, μη με και διαφθείρητε• ου γαρ αν έλεγον, ει μη μεγάλως έκηδόμην συναπάσης της Ελλάδος• αυτός τε γαρ Έλλην γένος ειμί τώρχαίον, και άντ' ελευθέρης δεδουλωμένην ουκ αν έθέλοιμι όραν την Ελλάδα. Λέγω δε ων ότι Μαρδονίω τε και τη στρατιή τα σφάγια ου δύναται καταθύμια γενέσθαι" πάλαι γαρ αν έμάχεσθε• νυν δε οι δέδοκται τα μεν σφάγια εάν χαίρειν, άμα ήμέρη δε διαφωσκούση συμβολήν ποιέεσθαι' κα-ταρρώδηκε γαρ μη πλέονες συλλεχθήτε, ως εγώ εικάζω. Προς ταύτα ετοιμάζεστε. ην δε άρα υπερβάληται την συμβολήν Μαρδόνιος και μη ποιήται, λιπαρέετε μένοντες• όλιγέων γαρ σφι ήμερέων λείπεται αιτία. Ην δε υμίν ο πόλεμος όδε κατά νόον τελευτήση, μνησθήναί τίνα χρή και έμέο έλευθερώσιος περί, ός Ελλήνων είνεκα έργον ούτω παράβολον έργασμαι υπό προθυμίης, έθέλων υμίν δηλώσαι την διάνοιαν την Μαρδονίου, ίνα μη έπιπέσωσι υμίν εξαίφνης οι βάρβαροι μη προσδεκομέ-νοισί κω. Ειμί δε Αλέξανδρος ό Μακεδών." Ό μεν ταύτα είπας άπήλαυνε οπίσω ες το στρατόπεδον και την έωυτού τάξι (Herodot)
"...there were representatives from Aitoloi, Acarnanes, Macedonians, people homoglossoi (speaking the same Greek language)..." Macedonians=Not Macedonian Slavs Vergina 23:31, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
MAKEDONIJA and MACEDONIA is diferent names
Macedonians, wants to be called "MAKEDONCI" and for his state wants to be called "MAKEDONIJA"
Greeks have province "MACEDONIA" and people called "Macedonans". Those names is not identical. Greek`s distraint for useing this name is unmeaning
The most important of all those arguments is that someone lives in county named "Makedonija" and he wants to be called "Mekedonac". In the name of what someother interdict this name because likewise to substantive (antecedent) "Macedonia" 194.106.167.14 01:06, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 194.106.167.14 01:23, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Vergina, this argument has been gone through before: the Macedonian Royals were of Greek descent, that is known, but there is still uncertainty whether the Macedonians could be considered Hellenic. I am of Greek descent on my paternal lineage (the Hellenized version of my name would be Alexandros Gheorghiou [18] See number 3693) from Braila, but I am Romanian myself---that argument is not enough. If you got something more, post it here also: Talk:Macedon. Decius 03:20, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Obviously, the very fact that Alexander the I made it clear that he was of Greek descent is because he was a King of the non-Greek ancient Macedonians. Decius 04:45, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, but even though I don't believe the ancient Macedonians were Greek doesn't mean I will vote in support of people X being called Macedonians---nope, I can't do that. By the way, some of those who voted don't enough edits to qualify: see 80.74.168.40. Decius 06:54, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well, I couldn't rise against anything if I wasn't even born yet. Maybe they were busy. I don't even know much about that phase of history, so I can't comment. Decius 07:24, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That's because I'm a Latin Lover. But let's not continue this on this talk page. There's plenty other stuff going on. Decius 07:40, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Alright, I got a question: how many Slavophone Macedonians would you estimate are in Greek Macedonia, if you want to take a guess? I bet there's more than the Greeks claim, but I don't know. Decius 07:52, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Apparently the arguments play no role in the voting!
Sure - but do you honestly expect that if this panel of yours decides tomorrow that the decision will be "Macedonians" without a qualifier, the decision will be accepted by the Greeks? And how long do you think that such a decision will last? The same regards the preservation of the status quo - "Macedonian Slavs". Quite obviously, this is not a working variant. VMORO 00:09, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
The point about the panel of neutral editors s surely that their decision would be final; the article would be protected against moves, so that it wouldn't matter whether nationalist editors complained — there'd be nothing that they could do, and editors who simply wanted to write better articles could ignore them. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 11:46, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree that the committee of neutral editors should decide on this matter. Of course, no ethnic ties should be allowed for the members of this committee. No politics, also. I am a member of people X, so this can be seen as a POV: but, actually no significant (non-Greek, and non-Bulgarian) media, international organization or books refer to the modern non-People X inhabitants of Macedonia as "Macedonians", so I wouldn't be so confident about that "Macedonians" is clearly not a suitable name. Macedonians (region) option should also be considered. However, every qualifier mentioned above sounds good to me, except maybe "Modern Macedonians"... that is rather strange. -- FlavrSavr 08:09, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
By "Modern", I just mean "Present day", i.e. current usage of the word. Regardless of it's historical accuracy, if everyone agrees that a large majority of the world now uses the term "Macedonians" to refer to the inhabitants of FYROM, then why not rename Macedonian Slavs to Modern Macedonians or Present day Macedonians. I'm sure there are plenty of words which have had their meanings change over the years. The important thing to to accept modern day usage, WITHOUT distorting history. -- Rebroad 09:18, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ancient Macedonian language MATIA 10:56, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The term "Ethnic Macedonians" or "Macedonians" ,for the Slavs of FYROM, is false! Would consider that the ethnic Macedonian symbols ( Vergina Sun) are Greek symbols. Here an again saying gives. The flag of FYROM is not "Ethnic Macedonian symbol"!
the flag of the Krushevo Republic is Bulgarian Symbol of IMRO.
One of the ideas non-partisan international observers have toyed with in the past is to use the native Slavic terms Republika Makedonija for the country and Makedonski for the people and language even in English, along the lines of Republika Srpska instead of Serbian Republic, Belarus instead of White Russia or Byelorussia, Moldova instead of Moldavia and Iran and Farsi instead of Persia and Persian. Makedonski makes it abundantly clear that it is a Slavic language; Macedonian does not. Accordingly, the terms Macedonia and Macedonian(s) would be reserved for the wider region or specifically for Macedonia (Greece) as the modern counterpart of ancient Macedon.-- Theathenae 15:28, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Tell me one reason, why should Macedonians be reserved for the greek inhabitants of the region instead of Makedoniai, or whatever the greek translation is. -- FlavrSavr 15:44, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It's no use saying the original ancient Macedonians spoke Greek if that hasn't been proven. It makes a person look biased and dogmatic when they say things like that (doesn't help this argument). Decius 15:59, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree that they may likely have all taken up Greek by the time Rome conquered Macedon, that's why I said original ancient Macedonians---and now you defined what you meant. Decius 16:06, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
FlavrSavr, what's your source for that info? Just trying to verify, not necessarily questioning that info. Decius 16:25, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You contradict yourself. "The ancient Macedonian population that accepted the Slavic language in the Middle Ages"? The ancient Macedonian population accepted no Slavic language. The Macedonians were already mediaeval Greeks by the time the Slavs arrived. And I'm still waiting for an answer in regards to Republika Makedonija and Makedonski.-- Theathenae 16:35, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Decie, I am intrigued. I'd like to see your sources regarding the survival of the ancient Macedonian language beyond the Roman conquest.-- Theathenae 17:15, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I said there are indications---such as the Fifth Century AD lexicon of Hesychius which includes Macedonian words about a century before Slavic arrival---though some words doesn't necessarily prove language survival as long as those who passed down the words remembered that they were Macedonian words---but an AD survival is possible. Decius 17:20, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I don't know how many are in Hesychius. It's to be expected that some words would outlive the language, so Hesychius might be inconclusive regarding language survival---unless he noted it was still being spoken. Decius 17:32, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yes! That is a compromise proposal!Until a solution is found in the UNO. The article "Republic Macedonia"should be renamed in "Republika Makedonija". "Republika Makedonija" should be untranslatable. That is the Constitutions name of the country. See UNO proposal (Nimitz).
The silence of people like FlavrSavr regarding the Republika Makedonija/Makedonski proposal is deafening. What I'm really hanging for is for a person X to come out and say Republika Makedonija and Makedonski are offensive slurs that are tantamount to a gross violation of their right to self-determination and their human rights in general. Now that would be a hoot! :D-- Theathenae 17:57, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Do the Fyromian not want to accept the Constitutions name of the state as "Republika Makedonija"?
Agree. Use "Macedonians" for the inhabitants of the greater Macedonia region, and "Makedonski" (or the appropriate native term) for the people that define themselves so. Etz Haim 22:44, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Dear god... I have just noticed this...
... please, although this poll is seemingly absurd, do prevent vandalism. -- FlavrSavr 02:19, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Dear FlavrSavr can you explain why is vandalism the expression of a certain view. Even if you strongly disagree with this? I wrote the above statements and they are absolutely true. On the contrary your attermpt to delete my views is censorship and vandalism. Is it not true the fact that in FYROM's school books there are maps of a "liberated" "united" Macedonia? Is it not true that Political parties in FYROM encourage signs "MACEDONIANS ARE MACEDONIAN...NOT GREEK...MACEDONIA CONQUERED GREECE AND ONE DAY ALL OF MACEDONIA WILL BE TOGETHER AGAIN!!!!! MAKEDONIA ZA MAKEDONCITE!!!!!" Similar posts were posted in this page a few days ago isn't it?
Dear FlavrSavr, the only way to read this discussion page is through the history link [diff by diff]. You disagree about that 1923 [or 1948 or whatever] "plan". What about the constitutional changes that your country have done the last decade? You do remember what quotes have been removed and I do suppose that you can see the similarities with that "plan". Now, the destabilization. It has been mentioned before, the existance of two Koreas and two Germanys etc. Ask yourself how those countries were split apart, check history and think about it. Can you see a pattern there? MATIA 10:01, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Do you believe that ordinary people of Eastern Germany hated the ordinary people of West Germany? Right now we have one united Germany. Can you understand the motives behind such moves? MATIA 11:30, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
EXECUTIVE BOARD CONSEIL EXECUTIF
F.B (2004) OS 2 March 2004
Note for the attention of the members of the Executive Board
References concerning "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" and persons belonging to a minority or speaking a minority language outside the country
Taking into account Resolution (95) 23 adopted by the Committee of Ministers on 19 October 1995 at the 547th meeting of Ministers' Deputies, the Secretarial is hereby instructed to use the following references provisionally for all purposes within the Council of Europe pending settlement of the difference which has arisen over the name of the State in question. They are to be used in all documents prepared by the Secretariat of the Council of Europe.
The Parliamentary Assembly, the Congress of Local and Regional Authorities of Europe, the European Court of Human Rights and independent monitoring mechanisms are strongly encouraged to use these references. However, texts emanating or prepared under instructions from the Parliamentary Assembly, the Congress of Local and Regional Authorities of Europe, the European Court of Human Rights, independent monitoring mechanisms, as well as reports, declarations and other texts attributed to individual Parliamentarians, representatives to the Congress, judges of the Court or members of independent monitoring mechanisms will not have to be changed if they are not in line with the agreed references.
As regards the country
Country:
"The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"
The inverted commas are an integral pan of the reference. When the term appears within a sentence, the (the) must be written with a small (t)
Adjective/ Nationality:
of "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" Examples: the government of "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", the police of "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" citizen of "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"
Adjective referring to culture: Macedonian (Slav) Examples: Macedonian (Slav) traditions. Macedonian (Slav) culture
Language: Macedonian (Slav)
As regards persons belonging to a minority or speaking a minority language outside the country
Persons/group: Macedonian(s) accompanied by a footnote reading �Terminology of self-identification used by the person(s) concerned�
Adjective: Macedonian (Slav) Examples: Macedonian (Slav) traditions. Macedonian (Slav) associations, Macedonian (Slav) schools
Language: Macedonian (Slav)
Jan Kleijssen, Director of the Secretary General's Private Office -- 10:33, 23 Jun 2005 Theathenae
A well known case in the Republic of Macedonia. This is a good example exactly why we shouldn't be using Macedonian Slavs term. This wasn't a resolution, it was only a reccomendation that was immediately cancelled due to mass NGO organized protest called Don't you FYROM me!. Thousands of letters were send to Walter Schwimmer, the chairman of this organization. Also official governmental reaction followed, that the CoE was deconstructing its basic princple. It was immediately withdrawn. In fact Walter Schwimmer himself stated that such a resolution never even existed. The Council of Europe still refers to people X as Macedonians. See: [21] -- FlavrSavr 11:08, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
A question to FlavrSavr. At your previews message you said that as long as the term Slav Macedonians is being used by WIKIPEDIA ".....As an admin of the Macedonian Wikipedia I found it very hard to convince a wider macedonian public to participate in the macedonian wiki project ...." It looks like blackmailing isn't?
People in Northern Greece call themselves Macedonians and they have strong Greek identity. Are n't those Macedonians entitled to use those terms? Should we answer people of FYROM "Don't you (steal) MACEDONIA (from) me!" ? MATIA 11:36, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
On more than a one occasions I've been to UN meetings and have had discusions about how does this FYROM/RoM business work. I know that this is only marginally relevant to this article, but it is an illustration about how far away from everyday realities the anti-Macedonian position is here.
In the UN this the usual state of affairs:
RoM delegations get to call it and themselves what they like AND everybody at the meeting is obliged to respond to them. Meaning, if a RoM delegate makes a statement "The Gov't of the RoM is of the opinion etc..." that statement is accepted as any other official statement from anyone else. No one, niether UN beurocrat nor country delegate, not event he Greek delegation, can explain failure to act or respond on the basis of "I don't know who this delegation represents" or "who was that?".
The catch is that RoM must respond if anyone from the UN or other member country delegations requests: "Can we have a comment/report from FYROM" - then their delegate must respond or take note and cannot ignore or use this as an excuse to ignore, in the sense of "that's not us, why bother?".
In practice the second applies only when there is a Greek dlegate or official in the room because, even though non-Greek delegates are mostly not concerned in the least, if anyone starts RoM-ing or Macedonian-ing the RoM delegates, the Greek delegations are obliged by automatism in the form of a prescription from the Greek Foreign Office to react with a usual statement which they keep in their pocket and heartlessly file with the particular meeting's secretary, often much to their own embarassment.
When there is no Greek at a UN meeting, the RoM delegation is habitually reffered to as RoM, "Macedonian delegation" and Macedonians.
I urge any Macedonian and Greek to when in NY visit the UN and attend a meeting - many of them are public. Maybe they get lucky to see one where there will be some delegates from one or both countries and see this practical compormise in action. Its almost cute, especially when the meeting brakes and they go altogether for a kafedaki!
If the wiki Greeks think this is impossible or outrageous - think twice: no UN decision can be above and higher than the UN charter and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which describe the rights related to self-determination and nationhood. The decision is just a temporary patch up about a technical naming convention: it is not a statement of politcal thought or siding in the international fora from a daily perspective. Of course, its very political in the country capitals - this I do not deny.
I hope the wiki Greeks don't come flaming at this, I understand it may go against their principled understanding of politics - but real life in the international political insitutions is much softer and measured than some of then seem to appreciate, or that is evident by some of the official statements or decisions.
Peace&love -- Modi 20:34, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What about the current Macedonians article?
Is this voting an attempt to justify the vandalizing of Macedonians? If the wiki about Macedonian Slavs replace the wiki about Macedonians would this be like vandalizing the original wiki, or not?
MATIA 11:25, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)