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The purpose of this article is to clear up the comfusion among the ethnic Macedonians and the Macedonians (Greeks). Sometimes, the term "Macedonians" refers only to ethnic Macedonians, ignoring the 3 milions of Macedonians (Greeks), their culture, their heroes, their history and their presence. I think this article is useful to the average reader, although it is short. I hope for enrichment.
Mactruth ( talk) 04:56, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Chrusts 07:48, 10 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes ( talk • contribs)
1. Maybe you have sources, or you can construct some...There are many sources that they proove that ancient Macedonians were Greeks. "That time" that you said is about 5th century BC. Did the world spoke Greek at that time? Did the world spoke a pre-Dorian dialect at that time? How Macedonians learned to speak a dialect, that was disapeared to the rest Dorians centuries ago? Did they learned Greek before 1.000 BC? And if they spoke Greek (pre-Dorian) at 1000 BC, maybe were they or not Greeks? There was not a Greek language at that time as you may know. There were just local dialects. And Macedonian dialect was different from Attic dialect ofcourse. I don't think Romans and Thracians participated in the Olympic Games at 5th century BC. That only happened when Greeks coquared by Romans at 1st century BC. Alexander the 1st participated in the Olympic games in the 5th century after proving that he was a Greek. Let me remind you, Patriarch Metrophanes of Alexandria from 1636 to 1639 was a native Macedonian Greek. Patriarch Callinicus of Alexandria from 1858 to 1861 was a native Macedonian Greek. Patriarch Joachim III of Constantinople from 1878 to 1912 was a native Macedonian Greek. Bishops and priests in the villages and towns of Macedonia were also native Macedonians. Then, who was the church? Who brainwashed who? The priests were the only people of the villages that could read books, and they tought to their co-villagers their history, as schools were forbiden for many years in Ottoman times. That was all.
2. There are many sources to prove that the Macedonians you mentioned such as Ag. Gatsos, An. Karatassos and Em. Pappas (as their real names were) knew that they were Macedonians, and that they were descentants of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians. Read their notes. In fact, Anastasios Karatassos is my anchestor and I don't have any doubt for this, anyway. Look, the Macedonians (Greeks) have a continuous presence over history, from ancient times,, to Roman times, to Byzantine times, to Ottoman times until the Greek War of Independence and the Macedonian Struggle. There are thousands of heroes, scholars, academics, kings, philosofers, artists, politicians, military officers, clerics etc who knew their origin and declared to be Macedonians and Greeks. Konstantinos Christou used to say to the villagers, during the Macedonian Struggle: "For us the Macedonians, there are two ways to go: the one is the Bulgarian, which is the easy way, because they promised to us money and welth, and the other is the Greek, it is the way of our heart, but it is difficult, passing through blood and fighting. I think it is worth to choose the second one." After this, do you have any doubt? About the nationalistic ideologies and the brainwashing, I only can say these words: The first Greek Nationalist was Ion Dragoumis, who was Macedonian. The Greek goverment can't make brainwashing to us, the Macedonians because Macedonians don't accept guidance from the Southern Greece. You may know about the dispute we have with Athens, from the begining of the Greek War of Independence until now. And that's because Macedonians are proud and we believe that we are more Greeks than the Southern ones. As German historic Wilcken states, Macedonians were always the forefront of Greeks, they always fought against the Northern Barbarians in order to protect the Southern Greece. That's what Ag. Gatsos, An. Karatasssos, Em. Pappas and K. Christou did and that's what we do now!!
3. In 1912 there were about 900.000 Macedonians Greeks in Macedonia (Greece). See the census. I don't know where did you find those fake numbers. Wake up! They are desceiving you! Now we are 2.5 millions in Macedonia and 1.3 millions are native Macedonians Greeks. In fact, we, the native Macedonians, claim to be descentants of the ancient Macedonians and not the descentants of the refugees. Noone forced nobody to become Greek. In fact the Greek goverments tried to force the slavophones not speaking the slavic dialects. That was generally correct. But, the Southern Greeks didn't understand that we were living with Slavs over 1000 years and that it wasn't easy to change in one generation. Together with the language, the goverment took away our songs and our dances just because they thought they weren't Greek. Nowadays, the officers of the Greek goverment in Macedonia, are Macedonians, so we don't have problems with the stupid Southern Greeks. We try now to keep the Macedonian culture (songs and dances). In fact those who were not Greeks left. They weren't forced to become Greeks.
4. I am not talking about descentants and anchestors here. I am talking about national identity. In fact, in this land, there were always people who had Greek Identity, and they are now, too. Even if they spoke, pre-Dorian Greek, Attic Greek, Latin, Aromounian, Serbian, Bulgarian, the majority of people in this land, always were Greeks. Was there any brainwashing during 5th century BC? Was there any brainwashing, during Alexander the Great? Was there any brainwashing During the Romans? Was there any brainwashing, during Byzantium? Was there any brainwashing, during Ottomans? Was there any brainwashing, during the Greek War of Independence, at 1821? If there was brainwashing, then I admit it. I am not a Macedonian Greek, in fact I am a descentant of a tribe that it is being brainwashed for 4.000 years, and we believe, by mistake, for these 4 thousand years that we are Greeks!! Chrusts 19:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes ( talk • contribs)
At 14th century Macedonia falls to Ottomans. Descriptions of that era by Ottoman travelers, such as writer Hadji Kalfa, recorded that the only nation living in the area was the Greek one. Chrusts 15:49, 13 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes ( talk • contribs)
Please see the AfD for opinions on the subject. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 05:24, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
I hope this article stays. I can see its potential weakness, there are no articles 'Peloponnesians (Greeks)' etc. But then, considering the Macedonian issue, much has changed in the last years; this includes articles based on a wealth of literature and include the creation of articles on Macedonian who are Slavs, Macedonians who are Greeks, aso. I hope to include 17t-19th Century authors who identifies as Macedonians (therefore Greeks) in their books. Politis ( talk) 11:39, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I understand why Greeks of the Macedonia region may want their own article, especially with Greek nationalism spreading throughout Greece like a wave in the water. What frustrates me is while the subgroup of Greek Macedonians get there own article, the subgroup Aegean Macedonians do not. When the article Aegean Macedonians was up, you Greeks protested it should be within the article "Slavs of Greek Macedonia", but you do not apply the same views for yourselves (ie: Greek Macedonians should be within the article Macedonia (Greece)). All I can say is: very hypocritical, your nationalism has blinded you to the point of insanity. Mactruth ( talk) 13:23, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
We should edit an article for Macedonians (Greeks) inside the Republic of Macedonia or Bulgaria, instead.Chrusts 13:27, 22 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes ( talk • contribs)
The section about contemporary Macedonians has to include some facts about the contemporary people, their aspects, their actions and I think that a demonstration of 1,000,000 of them is very notable. I can't see how having an article about 2008 Greek riots is notable and that the 1992 Rally is not worth even a mention? It of the essence to include some facts. The name dispute info is covered only in epigrammatic fashion, the real value of this content is the aspects and expressions of the contemporary Macedonian Greeks. Shadowmorph ( talk) 04:44, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
I want to get to the other things (culture, diaspora) that have to be written. We have time for those. This article is about the modern people and the explicit Greek identity. There is a difference about the content that should be placed here and the one that belongs to all the people of Macedonia region and should go to the Macedonia (Greece) article better. Shadowmorph ( talk) 14:51, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
I think Slavophones must be considered as part of Macedonians (Greeks). It is a subgroup of Macedonians and not a subgroup of Greeks in general. They can't be confused with Pomaks which are also slavophones. Macedonians may have several subgroups, such as Slavophones, Chalkidikiotes, Chassiotes, Thassians, Eastern Macedonians, Meglenites, Sourds, Olympians, Arvanitovlachs and Voians (from Voio province). They have some differences between them but they have a lot in common. They are the Macedonians.Chrusts 18:23, 5 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes ( talk • contribs)
The article about slavic speakers in Greece is comfusing. There are several groups of slavic speakers in Greece and outside of Greece that they are connected with Greece, one way or another. 1. There are native Slavophone Macedonians Greeks in Greece. 2. There are native Slavophone Macedonians Greeks in North Eastern Macedonia, Bulgaria. 3. There are native Slavophone Macedonians Greeks in Northern Macedonia, Rep. of Macedonia. 4. There are Slavophone Macedonians Greeks in Greece, came from Asia Minor in 1922, with origins from Acrida (16th century), known as trakatrukes. 5. There are Slavophone Macedonians Greeks in Greece, came from Northern Macedonia, Rep. of Macedonia in 1912 and 1919. 6. There are Slavophone Macedonians Greeks in Greece, came from North Eastern Macedonia, Bulgaria in 1920. 7. There are native Slavophone ethnic Macedonians in Greece. 8. There are Slavophone ethnic Macedonians in Rep. of Macedonia, came from Greece in 1945. 9. There are Slavophone Bulgarians in Bulgaria, came from Greece in 1920. 10. There are native Slavophone Bulgarians in Greece. 11. There are native Slavophone Pomaks in Greece. As you may see, we have 11 categories of slavophones, 6 of them refering to Greeks, 2 of them refering to ethnic Macedonians, 2 of them refering to Bulgarians and one of them refering to Pomaks. This article is comfusing everything and makes no sense at all.Chrusts 18:58, 5 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes ( talk • contribs)
What kind of sources do we need here? I'll try to find some more. Do the photos qualify as sources? Next to the monument in the photo there is another inscription specifically about the lost villagers, it is less readable in that photo of mine. I doubt we can find English sources about the existence of many monuments spread in the area. But they do exist, so what should we do? The Dragoumis family was from Kastoria, so count one local Macedonian fighter. Shadowmorph ^"^ 10:03, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
This source is used irresponsibly in the article, using it to state "Macedonian Greeks have roots in ancient Macedonians" when the book itself states:
pages:
Mactruth ( talk) 07:48, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
How about you guys not use Greek authors as sources, since they use names such as "Macedonia: 4000 years greek history" Mactruth ( talk) 07:58, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
The statement is wrong bcuz it was a region in the north of the Balkan peninsula, I have not read authors stating the Macedonia region of the late 1800s to present was located in north Greece. I understand in the present a portion is in northern Greece, but the region of Macedonia wad not described in this fashion in the 1800s. I am not stating it's wrong or right; I am stating an appropriate source needs to be present. This is wikipedia. Mactruth ( talk) 17:09, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
"Macedonians is the term by which ethnic Greeks inhabiting or originating from the region of Macedonia in Greece, are known."
what does this term describe in this context? it is not even specified what kind of identity category are we talking about? They are Macedonians by Nationality? No. Etnicity? No. So this "Macedonians" in this context stands for what?
Aricle full of unclear statements, pov, and "are known as" unverified sources Alex Makedon ( talk) 23:31, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Should there be a preface? Everyone knows the ancient Macedonians are unrelated to today's Greek Macedonians. Greek Macedonians are comprised of Christian Turks/Pontic Greeks, Vlachs, Bulgarians, Macedonians, and a few indigenous Hellenics. For the few indigenous Hellenics, can Greeks show sources that they saw themselves as Macedonian before being incorporated into the Greek state or before the formation of the Greek church in Macedonia? Please do not use Greek sources. Mactruth ( talk) 06:59, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
I ask you again. Do you dispute the Greek character of the Hellenistic culture to add a citation needed-note? - Sthenel ( talk) 23:30, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
To Macktruth,in 1878 after the Berlin agreement a lot of Greek communities in Macedonia sent protests to the foreign powers in order to make clear that they are Greek. There are edited and written protests by communities of Monastiri (Vitolia), Krousovo, Megarovo, Nizopoli, Resna and Achrida where they all state that they are Greeks, descendants of ancient Macedonians. If you still have doupts, I can find the papers toshow you. Christos
To Christos, yes I would like to see these documents, but again I stated to give documents before Greek church intervention in Macedonia, and before Greek army involvement in Macedonia. In 1878, both were highly present, it is a start but I want to see documents before both.
To Shadowmorph, I put the citation due to the statement implied that Greek Macedonians kept Macedonia Christian during Ottoman times, meaning the other ethnicity were being ignored (creating bias). Your current source simply stated "Greeks", not Greek Macedonians, and from readin the material it does not indicate the Greeks were claiming descent of ancient Macedonians. Mactruth ( talk) 01:45, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Mactruth above: "Please do not use Greek sources", especially for the Ancient Macedonians, please only use the Slavic or English sources Alexander the G himself would have used :-) Politis ( talk) 15:41, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
You understand nothing of what I told you in my last post. Reread it. Also your knowledge of the Ottomans' history is limited; no, the Ottoman era ended early 20th century not at 1700's. No, during the Byzantine and most of the Ottoman era there were no schools to teach to the population the Greek language at all and to apply Greek propaganda. Your knowledge about Byzantium is also limited; no, during most of the period the official language was not Greek, was Latin. The "Byzantine Empire" never really existed, it is a misleading term created very later in a common "agreement" between the western and modern Greek scholars: The western were for centuries anxious to cut any legal and historical connection of the Constantinople Emperors with the Roman Empire for their reasons and the Greek scholars were anxious to "Hellenize" the Eastern Roman Empire for their reasons. During the 1,000 years of its existence not a single emperor called himself or his Empire "Byzantine" and in fact there was not such a term before long after the end of the Empire. All of them called themselves Roman Emperors and their Empire Roman Empire. Every known document of the era both political, historical and religious including numerous laws very clearly indicate that proclaiming being Greek was severely punishable. This policy continued during most of the Ottoman era (and at least until the 19th century) because of the Patriarchate's fierce opposition, which continued identifying the term Greek as synonym of the pagan as in the pre-Ottoman period, they spoke Greek and in the same time it was impossible to admit their origin for almost 1,300 years. At the end they lost any link with their past, adopting the term Romioi (Ρωμιοί) which was how the "Byzantine" and Ottoman authorities wanted to call them, meaning Romans, although they were not speaking Latin but Greek and they were not of Italian origin but of Greek. Even during the Greek Revolution at 1821 the people called themselves Romioi, such was the result of 13 centuries of persecutions, having only their language to link them with their unknown past. Seeking Greek people identifying themselves as such during those 13 centuries only revealing your lack of historical knowledge even in the more basic level of that period, else hypocritical and propagandistic intentions. If the case is the first one I would like to be more informative to you but unfortunately I don't have the time. Read more about by yourself. -- Factuarius ( talk) 06:36, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
To Macktruth, When you say before Greek church intervasion, you mean before 30 AD, because since then the Greek Church is always present here and almost all of the bishops and all priests are native Macedonians. So tell me, since when actually do you need documents: 1sr century AD, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, fifth century AD, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th century AD, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th century AD, 18th or maybe 19th, because it is easy to find in every period. Christos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.67.173.251 ( talk) 11:42, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
OK, but: if we talk about self-identification we have to search for local Greek statements, such as Greek communities' protests in foreign embassies. If we talk about just identification it is another story. Christos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.67.173.251 ( talk) 12:05, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
YES, BUT IF THEY are called "Macedonians" internationally, then what are we that we were always are been called as Macedonians? There must be a seperation such as Macedonians on the one hand and "20th century Macedonians" on the other (like "20th century Fox")!!!. Christos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.67.173.251 ( talk) 13:39, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Sources from the 1800's (Greece was under the Ottoman Empire). That's 100 years prior to the Balkan wars, there was no Greek state, no body existed able to supposedly "spread propaganda" (sic), "hellenize its subjects" (sic) etc. However the writers of that time reported the fights of the Greek Macedonians who joined the rest of the Greeks in the common cause.
French to English: (semi-automatic translation)
(1825) source: Edward Blaquière, Histoire de la révolution actuelle de la Grèce: ...
French to English: (semi-automatic translation)
(1829) source: Alexandros Soutsos, Histoire de la révolution grecque
Considering the scarcity of books from that period and about that subject matter, it was not an easy task to deliver the source that satisfies all the (unnecessary) specialized properties Mactruth wants. Here it is: it's a book by respectable English writers Andrew Kippis, William Godwin written in 1822 (before the Greek was officially recognized). It quotes the Macedonian Greek rebel leader and the quotation is rather nice in showing the mindset of the Macedonian rebels who are Greek rebels and bonded with the heritage of Alexander the Great and ancient Greece. I've underlined some parts for your facilitation. The book is called The New annual register, or General repository of history, politics, and literature, for the year 1822 By Andrew Kippis, William Godwin:
“ | The Greek population, whose submission rendered the name of Greek a term of scorn and reproach, has suddenly been reanimated with the spirit which history relates so eminently distinguished
the ancient inhabitants of their soil. Unarmed and unprovided with the materiel of armament, but impatient of further oppression and degradation, the Greek slave has heroically, rather than prudently, engaged in a terrible and' unequal contest. The Turks are known to have enslaved their Greek subjects for centuries, and to be repaid by them with a degree of hatred amounting to abhorrence in the heart of every Greek. If the energy of action correspond with the ardour of expression in their proclamations, some considerable success may be fairly anticipated for them. It is worth while to preserve a specimen :— : " Macedonians! Greeks !. The standard of liberty waves over the summit of Olympus,—over the summit of Pindus. Glorious monuments, the monumental columns, the tombs of our heroes, have passed away; but our native mountains, those eternal trophies of our glory, still bid defiance to> time. Macedonians, children of Alexander, around these trophies will we assemble: beside them will we conquer or die; and those who fall in the glorious contest will add new lustre to the deeds of their ancestors; and that lustre will strike terror into the hearts of the barbarians! Macedonians, children of Alexander, sons of the conquerors of the world, grasp your swords! Shame on those who will longer submit to be governed by a wretched hoard of barbarians. Your mountains and your valleys are free, and the ensigns of tyranny only still wave on the fortresses. But in vain do the barbarians hide themselves behind the walls of Salonichi, of Jenizzar, of Cavalla, and call them, as heretofore their bulwarks but these walls will fall before the swords of the Macedonians, and ye will avenge the sufferings of our fathers, our wives, and our daughters, in the blood of the barbarians. Thrace have we already conquered! Philippopoli is in our possession. Our heroes in a few days conquered that city. Stagira is no more, the Greeks have destroyed the town of the philosopher. Why should it be an asylum for the barbarians? Many have fallen, more will yet fall! But our ranks increase daily, and will still further increase. To those who Lave sacrificed themselves on the altar of freedom the favour of heaven will be extended, and their brothers will avenge their death. To arms! to freedom, Macedonians ! Greeks of every country, the eyes of the world are turned upon us. " Odysseus, Commander of the Macedonians. From the camp on mount Olympus, July 20." |
” |
The above text was written in 1822. Shadowmorph ^"^ 12:20, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
We cannot use these 19th century sources; like so many other sources, they clearly identify the Macedonians as Greeks. But Mr Gruevski, as well as the authors of the scientifically based 'Macedonian Encyclopedia' from Skopje, tell us that it was only in 1988 that the Greeks, for the fist time, identified the Macedonians as Greeks... By the way, what happened to the reference to the 17th century Greek scholar and cleric, Kritopoulos, who, like many of his fellow Greeks, also identified as a Macedonian? Politis ( talk) 15:47, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Ever herd of regional population group identity!? There it is now there is one... Seems to me we are chasing ghosts here...
- No Infobox since in the Infobox we need to place official verifible numbers of population and territory...
And the official verifible numbers of population is the tricky part here...
are we chasing ghosts here!?
On top of this all, there are supposedly 2,5 milion of this supposed "Greek Macedonians", hell pretty hard to miss out of census data? There are census data about them, right!?
Id like to see a single present day official paper where this 2,5 milion population of Greece is evidented as Macedonians, and this supposed regional population group identity is described, delimited and evidented in any manner. Othervise its just greek propaganda trash based on nothing to delete ASAP. Alex Makedon ( talk) 11:27, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The purpose of this article is to clear up the comfusion among the ethnic Macedonians and the Macedonians (Greeks). Sometimes, the term "Macedonians" refers only to ethnic Macedonians, ignoring the 3 milions of Macedonians (Greeks), their culture, their heroes, their history and their presence. I think this article is useful to the average reader, although it is short. I hope for enrichment.
Mactruth ( talk) 04:56, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Chrusts 07:48, 10 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes ( talk • contribs)
1. Maybe you have sources, or you can construct some...There are many sources that they proove that ancient Macedonians were Greeks. "That time" that you said is about 5th century BC. Did the world spoke Greek at that time? Did the world spoke a pre-Dorian dialect at that time? How Macedonians learned to speak a dialect, that was disapeared to the rest Dorians centuries ago? Did they learned Greek before 1.000 BC? And if they spoke Greek (pre-Dorian) at 1000 BC, maybe were they or not Greeks? There was not a Greek language at that time as you may know. There were just local dialects. And Macedonian dialect was different from Attic dialect ofcourse. I don't think Romans and Thracians participated in the Olympic Games at 5th century BC. That only happened when Greeks coquared by Romans at 1st century BC. Alexander the 1st participated in the Olympic games in the 5th century after proving that he was a Greek. Let me remind you, Patriarch Metrophanes of Alexandria from 1636 to 1639 was a native Macedonian Greek. Patriarch Callinicus of Alexandria from 1858 to 1861 was a native Macedonian Greek. Patriarch Joachim III of Constantinople from 1878 to 1912 was a native Macedonian Greek. Bishops and priests in the villages and towns of Macedonia were also native Macedonians. Then, who was the church? Who brainwashed who? The priests were the only people of the villages that could read books, and they tought to their co-villagers their history, as schools were forbiden for many years in Ottoman times. That was all.
2. There are many sources to prove that the Macedonians you mentioned such as Ag. Gatsos, An. Karatassos and Em. Pappas (as their real names were) knew that they were Macedonians, and that they were descentants of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians. Read their notes. In fact, Anastasios Karatassos is my anchestor and I don't have any doubt for this, anyway. Look, the Macedonians (Greeks) have a continuous presence over history, from ancient times,, to Roman times, to Byzantine times, to Ottoman times until the Greek War of Independence and the Macedonian Struggle. There are thousands of heroes, scholars, academics, kings, philosofers, artists, politicians, military officers, clerics etc who knew their origin and declared to be Macedonians and Greeks. Konstantinos Christou used to say to the villagers, during the Macedonian Struggle: "For us the Macedonians, there are two ways to go: the one is the Bulgarian, which is the easy way, because they promised to us money and welth, and the other is the Greek, it is the way of our heart, but it is difficult, passing through blood and fighting. I think it is worth to choose the second one." After this, do you have any doubt? About the nationalistic ideologies and the brainwashing, I only can say these words: The first Greek Nationalist was Ion Dragoumis, who was Macedonian. The Greek goverment can't make brainwashing to us, the Macedonians because Macedonians don't accept guidance from the Southern Greece. You may know about the dispute we have with Athens, from the begining of the Greek War of Independence until now. And that's because Macedonians are proud and we believe that we are more Greeks than the Southern ones. As German historic Wilcken states, Macedonians were always the forefront of Greeks, they always fought against the Northern Barbarians in order to protect the Southern Greece. That's what Ag. Gatsos, An. Karatasssos, Em. Pappas and K. Christou did and that's what we do now!!
3. In 1912 there were about 900.000 Macedonians Greeks in Macedonia (Greece). See the census. I don't know where did you find those fake numbers. Wake up! They are desceiving you! Now we are 2.5 millions in Macedonia and 1.3 millions are native Macedonians Greeks. In fact, we, the native Macedonians, claim to be descentants of the ancient Macedonians and not the descentants of the refugees. Noone forced nobody to become Greek. In fact the Greek goverments tried to force the slavophones not speaking the slavic dialects. That was generally correct. But, the Southern Greeks didn't understand that we were living with Slavs over 1000 years and that it wasn't easy to change in one generation. Together with the language, the goverment took away our songs and our dances just because they thought they weren't Greek. Nowadays, the officers of the Greek goverment in Macedonia, are Macedonians, so we don't have problems with the stupid Southern Greeks. We try now to keep the Macedonian culture (songs and dances). In fact those who were not Greeks left. They weren't forced to become Greeks.
4. I am not talking about descentants and anchestors here. I am talking about national identity. In fact, in this land, there were always people who had Greek Identity, and they are now, too. Even if they spoke, pre-Dorian Greek, Attic Greek, Latin, Aromounian, Serbian, Bulgarian, the majority of people in this land, always were Greeks. Was there any brainwashing during 5th century BC? Was there any brainwashing, during Alexander the Great? Was there any brainwashing During the Romans? Was there any brainwashing, during Byzantium? Was there any brainwashing, during Ottomans? Was there any brainwashing, during the Greek War of Independence, at 1821? If there was brainwashing, then I admit it. I am not a Macedonian Greek, in fact I am a descentant of a tribe that it is being brainwashed for 4.000 years, and we believe, by mistake, for these 4 thousand years that we are Greeks!! Chrusts 19:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes ( talk • contribs)
At 14th century Macedonia falls to Ottomans. Descriptions of that era by Ottoman travelers, such as writer Hadji Kalfa, recorded that the only nation living in the area was the Greek one. Chrusts 15:49, 13 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes ( talk • contribs)
Please see the AfD for opinions on the subject. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 05:24, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
I hope this article stays. I can see its potential weakness, there are no articles 'Peloponnesians (Greeks)' etc. But then, considering the Macedonian issue, much has changed in the last years; this includes articles based on a wealth of literature and include the creation of articles on Macedonian who are Slavs, Macedonians who are Greeks, aso. I hope to include 17t-19th Century authors who identifies as Macedonians (therefore Greeks) in their books. Politis ( talk) 11:39, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I understand why Greeks of the Macedonia region may want their own article, especially with Greek nationalism spreading throughout Greece like a wave in the water. What frustrates me is while the subgroup of Greek Macedonians get there own article, the subgroup Aegean Macedonians do not. When the article Aegean Macedonians was up, you Greeks protested it should be within the article "Slavs of Greek Macedonia", but you do not apply the same views for yourselves (ie: Greek Macedonians should be within the article Macedonia (Greece)). All I can say is: very hypocritical, your nationalism has blinded you to the point of insanity. Mactruth ( talk) 13:23, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
We should edit an article for Macedonians (Greeks) inside the Republic of Macedonia or Bulgaria, instead.Chrusts 13:27, 22 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes ( talk • contribs)
The section about contemporary Macedonians has to include some facts about the contemporary people, their aspects, their actions and I think that a demonstration of 1,000,000 of them is very notable. I can't see how having an article about 2008 Greek riots is notable and that the 1992 Rally is not worth even a mention? It of the essence to include some facts. The name dispute info is covered only in epigrammatic fashion, the real value of this content is the aspects and expressions of the contemporary Macedonian Greeks. Shadowmorph ( talk) 04:44, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
I want to get to the other things (culture, diaspora) that have to be written. We have time for those. This article is about the modern people and the explicit Greek identity. There is a difference about the content that should be placed here and the one that belongs to all the people of Macedonia region and should go to the Macedonia (Greece) article better. Shadowmorph ( talk) 14:51, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
I think Slavophones must be considered as part of Macedonians (Greeks). It is a subgroup of Macedonians and not a subgroup of Greeks in general. They can't be confused with Pomaks which are also slavophones. Macedonians may have several subgroups, such as Slavophones, Chalkidikiotes, Chassiotes, Thassians, Eastern Macedonians, Meglenites, Sourds, Olympians, Arvanitovlachs and Voians (from Voio province). They have some differences between them but they have a lot in common. They are the Macedonians.Chrusts 18:23, 5 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes ( talk • contribs)
The article about slavic speakers in Greece is comfusing. There are several groups of slavic speakers in Greece and outside of Greece that they are connected with Greece, one way or another. 1. There are native Slavophone Macedonians Greeks in Greece. 2. There are native Slavophone Macedonians Greeks in North Eastern Macedonia, Bulgaria. 3. There are native Slavophone Macedonians Greeks in Northern Macedonia, Rep. of Macedonia. 4. There are Slavophone Macedonians Greeks in Greece, came from Asia Minor in 1922, with origins from Acrida (16th century), known as trakatrukes. 5. There are Slavophone Macedonians Greeks in Greece, came from Northern Macedonia, Rep. of Macedonia in 1912 and 1919. 6. There are Slavophone Macedonians Greeks in Greece, came from North Eastern Macedonia, Bulgaria in 1920. 7. There are native Slavophone ethnic Macedonians in Greece. 8. There are Slavophone ethnic Macedonians in Rep. of Macedonia, came from Greece in 1945. 9. There are Slavophone Bulgarians in Bulgaria, came from Greece in 1920. 10. There are native Slavophone Bulgarians in Greece. 11. There are native Slavophone Pomaks in Greece. As you may see, we have 11 categories of slavophones, 6 of them refering to Greeks, 2 of them refering to ethnic Macedonians, 2 of them refering to Bulgarians and one of them refering to Pomaks. This article is comfusing everything and makes no sense at all.Chrusts 18:58, 5 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes ( talk • contribs)
What kind of sources do we need here? I'll try to find some more. Do the photos qualify as sources? Next to the monument in the photo there is another inscription specifically about the lost villagers, it is less readable in that photo of mine. I doubt we can find English sources about the existence of many monuments spread in the area. But they do exist, so what should we do? The Dragoumis family was from Kastoria, so count one local Macedonian fighter. Shadowmorph ^"^ 10:03, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
This source is used irresponsibly in the article, using it to state "Macedonian Greeks have roots in ancient Macedonians" when the book itself states:
pages:
Mactruth ( talk) 07:48, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
How about you guys not use Greek authors as sources, since they use names such as "Macedonia: 4000 years greek history" Mactruth ( talk) 07:58, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
The statement is wrong bcuz it was a region in the north of the Balkan peninsula, I have not read authors stating the Macedonia region of the late 1800s to present was located in north Greece. I understand in the present a portion is in northern Greece, but the region of Macedonia wad not described in this fashion in the 1800s. I am not stating it's wrong or right; I am stating an appropriate source needs to be present. This is wikipedia. Mactruth ( talk) 17:09, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
"Macedonians is the term by which ethnic Greeks inhabiting or originating from the region of Macedonia in Greece, are known."
what does this term describe in this context? it is not even specified what kind of identity category are we talking about? They are Macedonians by Nationality? No. Etnicity? No. So this "Macedonians" in this context stands for what?
Aricle full of unclear statements, pov, and "are known as" unverified sources Alex Makedon ( talk) 23:31, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Should there be a preface? Everyone knows the ancient Macedonians are unrelated to today's Greek Macedonians. Greek Macedonians are comprised of Christian Turks/Pontic Greeks, Vlachs, Bulgarians, Macedonians, and a few indigenous Hellenics. For the few indigenous Hellenics, can Greeks show sources that they saw themselves as Macedonian before being incorporated into the Greek state or before the formation of the Greek church in Macedonia? Please do not use Greek sources. Mactruth ( talk) 06:59, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
I ask you again. Do you dispute the Greek character of the Hellenistic culture to add a citation needed-note? - Sthenel ( talk) 23:30, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
To Macktruth,in 1878 after the Berlin agreement a lot of Greek communities in Macedonia sent protests to the foreign powers in order to make clear that they are Greek. There are edited and written protests by communities of Monastiri (Vitolia), Krousovo, Megarovo, Nizopoli, Resna and Achrida where they all state that they are Greeks, descendants of ancient Macedonians. If you still have doupts, I can find the papers toshow you. Christos
To Christos, yes I would like to see these documents, but again I stated to give documents before Greek church intervention in Macedonia, and before Greek army involvement in Macedonia. In 1878, both were highly present, it is a start but I want to see documents before both.
To Shadowmorph, I put the citation due to the statement implied that Greek Macedonians kept Macedonia Christian during Ottoman times, meaning the other ethnicity were being ignored (creating bias). Your current source simply stated "Greeks", not Greek Macedonians, and from readin the material it does not indicate the Greeks were claiming descent of ancient Macedonians. Mactruth ( talk) 01:45, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Mactruth above: "Please do not use Greek sources", especially for the Ancient Macedonians, please only use the Slavic or English sources Alexander the G himself would have used :-) Politis ( talk) 15:41, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
You understand nothing of what I told you in my last post. Reread it. Also your knowledge of the Ottomans' history is limited; no, the Ottoman era ended early 20th century not at 1700's. No, during the Byzantine and most of the Ottoman era there were no schools to teach to the population the Greek language at all and to apply Greek propaganda. Your knowledge about Byzantium is also limited; no, during most of the period the official language was not Greek, was Latin. The "Byzantine Empire" never really existed, it is a misleading term created very later in a common "agreement" between the western and modern Greek scholars: The western were for centuries anxious to cut any legal and historical connection of the Constantinople Emperors with the Roman Empire for their reasons and the Greek scholars were anxious to "Hellenize" the Eastern Roman Empire for their reasons. During the 1,000 years of its existence not a single emperor called himself or his Empire "Byzantine" and in fact there was not such a term before long after the end of the Empire. All of them called themselves Roman Emperors and their Empire Roman Empire. Every known document of the era both political, historical and religious including numerous laws very clearly indicate that proclaiming being Greek was severely punishable. This policy continued during most of the Ottoman era (and at least until the 19th century) because of the Patriarchate's fierce opposition, which continued identifying the term Greek as synonym of the pagan as in the pre-Ottoman period, they spoke Greek and in the same time it was impossible to admit their origin for almost 1,300 years. At the end they lost any link with their past, adopting the term Romioi (Ρωμιοί) which was how the "Byzantine" and Ottoman authorities wanted to call them, meaning Romans, although they were not speaking Latin but Greek and they were not of Italian origin but of Greek. Even during the Greek Revolution at 1821 the people called themselves Romioi, such was the result of 13 centuries of persecutions, having only their language to link them with their unknown past. Seeking Greek people identifying themselves as such during those 13 centuries only revealing your lack of historical knowledge even in the more basic level of that period, else hypocritical and propagandistic intentions. If the case is the first one I would like to be more informative to you but unfortunately I don't have the time. Read more about by yourself. -- Factuarius ( talk) 06:36, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
To Macktruth, When you say before Greek church intervasion, you mean before 30 AD, because since then the Greek Church is always present here and almost all of the bishops and all priests are native Macedonians. So tell me, since when actually do you need documents: 1sr century AD, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, fifth century AD, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th century AD, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th century AD, 18th or maybe 19th, because it is easy to find in every period. Christos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.67.173.251 ( talk) 11:42, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
OK, but: if we talk about self-identification we have to search for local Greek statements, such as Greek communities' protests in foreign embassies. If we talk about just identification it is another story. Christos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.67.173.251 ( talk) 12:05, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
YES, BUT IF THEY are called "Macedonians" internationally, then what are we that we were always are been called as Macedonians? There must be a seperation such as Macedonians on the one hand and "20th century Macedonians" on the other (like "20th century Fox")!!!. Christos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.67.173.251 ( talk) 13:39, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Sources from the 1800's (Greece was under the Ottoman Empire). That's 100 years prior to the Balkan wars, there was no Greek state, no body existed able to supposedly "spread propaganda" (sic), "hellenize its subjects" (sic) etc. However the writers of that time reported the fights of the Greek Macedonians who joined the rest of the Greeks in the common cause.
French to English: (semi-automatic translation)
(1825) source: Edward Blaquière, Histoire de la révolution actuelle de la Grèce: ...
French to English: (semi-automatic translation)
(1829) source: Alexandros Soutsos, Histoire de la révolution grecque
Considering the scarcity of books from that period and about that subject matter, it was not an easy task to deliver the source that satisfies all the (unnecessary) specialized properties Mactruth wants. Here it is: it's a book by respectable English writers Andrew Kippis, William Godwin written in 1822 (before the Greek was officially recognized). It quotes the Macedonian Greek rebel leader and the quotation is rather nice in showing the mindset of the Macedonian rebels who are Greek rebels and bonded with the heritage of Alexander the Great and ancient Greece. I've underlined some parts for your facilitation. The book is called The New annual register, or General repository of history, politics, and literature, for the year 1822 By Andrew Kippis, William Godwin:
“ | The Greek population, whose submission rendered the name of Greek a term of scorn and reproach, has suddenly been reanimated with the spirit which history relates so eminently distinguished
the ancient inhabitants of their soil. Unarmed and unprovided with the materiel of armament, but impatient of further oppression and degradation, the Greek slave has heroically, rather than prudently, engaged in a terrible and' unequal contest. The Turks are known to have enslaved their Greek subjects for centuries, and to be repaid by them with a degree of hatred amounting to abhorrence in the heart of every Greek. If the energy of action correspond with the ardour of expression in their proclamations, some considerable success may be fairly anticipated for them. It is worth while to preserve a specimen :— : " Macedonians! Greeks !. The standard of liberty waves over the summit of Olympus,—over the summit of Pindus. Glorious monuments, the monumental columns, the tombs of our heroes, have passed away; but our native mountains, those eternal trophies of our glory, still bid defiance to> time. Macedonians, children of Alexander, around these trophies will we assemble: beside them will we conquer or die; and those who fall in the glorious contest will add new lustre to the deeds of their ancestors; and that lustre will strike terror into the hearts of the barbarians! Macedonians, children of Alexander, sons of the conquerors of the world, grasp your swords! Shame on those who will longer submit to be governed by a wretched hoard of barbarians. Your mountains and your valleys are free, and the ensigns of tyranny only still wave on the fortresses. But in vain do the barbarians hide themselves behind the walls of Salonichi, of Jenizzar, of Cavalla, and call them, as heretofore their bulwarks but these walls will fall before the swords of the Macedonians, and ye will avenge the sufferings of our fathers, our wives, and our daughters, in the blood of the barbarians. Thrace have we already conquered! Philippopoli is in our possession. Our heroes in a few days conquered that city. Stagira is no more, the Greeks have destroyed the town of the philosopher. Why should it be an asylum for the barbarians? Many have fallen, more will yet fall! But our ranks increase daily, and will still further increase. To those who Lave sacrificed themselves on the altar of freedom the favour of heaven will be extended, and their brothers will avenge their death. To arms! to freedom, Macedonians ! Greeks of every country, the eyes of the world are turned upon us. " Odysseus, Commander of the Macedonians. From the camp on mount Olympus, July 20." |
” |
The above text was written in 1822. Shadowmorph ^"^ 12:20, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
We cannot use these 19th century sources; like so many other sources, they clearly identify the Macedonians as Greeks. But Mr Gruevski, as well as the authors of the scientifically based 'Macedonian Encyclopedia' from Skopje, tell us that it was only in 1988 that the Greeks, for the fist time, identified the Macedonians as Greeks... By the way, what happened to the reference to the 17th century Greek scholar and cleric, Kritopoulos, who, like many of his fellow Greeks, also identified as a Macedonian? Politis ( talk) 15:47, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Ever herd of regional population group identity!? There it is now there is one... Seems to me we are chasing ghosts here...
- No Infobox since in the Infobox we need to place official verifible numbers of population and territory...
And the official verifible numbers of population is the tricky part here...
are we chasing ghosts here!?
On top of this all, there are supposedly 2,5 milion of this supposed "Greek Macedonians", hell pretty hard to miss out of census data? There are census data about them, right!?
Id like to see a single present day official paper where this 2,5 milion population of Greece is evidented as Macedonians, and this supposed regional population group identity is described, delimited and evidented in any manner. Othervise its just greek propaganda trash based on nothing to delete ASAP. Alex Makedon ( talk) 11:27, 2 December 2009 (UTC)