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Lately, users are vandalizing, mostly for political reasons, this page. Maybe can we add some sort of protection or lock it, at least temporarily? -- SilentResident ( talk) 12:24, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
We should do something with the template, too. I don't think it's at the appropriate size. User:Pyraechmes Chrusts 19:35, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
Macedonia was never a part of the ancient Hellenic city-states
One of the steps in the Scientific Method of Investigation is the publication of your obtained results. This is done, so that others by repeating the same experiment using same methodology may independently arrive to the same conclusion and verify whether it is true what you have accomplished with your own hypothesis. Once many independent laboratories—through their scientific research—confirm your results, then, the hypothesis that you have proposed becomes accepted and your findings acknowledged. I have said before, and I stand by my assertions that: (a) Macedonia was never a part of any ancient Greek city-state, nor were the ancient Macedonians ever considered by the ancient Greeks or by themselves, to be Greek. (b) Macedonia was never a member of any Hellenic League. Macedonia was not a member of the Greek Amphictyonic League either. Fact is that membership into these leagues was reserved for Hellenes only. And since Macedonians were not considered Hellenes, they were not admitted into these leagues. There is no record of either side voicing displeasure regarding this rule. And (c) in antiquity people knew that the boundary between Macedonia and Greece was the river Peneus and mount Olympus; to the south were the Greek tribes and to the north was Macedonia. I challenge all of you lecturers of history, including Professor Stephan Miller and his like-minded historians, to dispute my assertions and prove me wrong. When you claim or support a claim that "Macedonia was always Greek", it is incumbent upon you—academic standards compel—to find at least one shred of evidence from the ancient chroniclers and bring it forward. Find other authors from antiquity who will agree with your own assertion. And please, instead of shielding yourself with ambiguous interpretations from the 18th and the 19th century philhellenic writers, convince the readers with valid, persuasive arguments. Bring to the table solid, irrefutable evidence from the ancient Greeks themselves or their contemporary Greek or Roman biographers and chroniclers. I will go on the limb and reiterate my opinion regarding the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians: Anyone who claims that ancient Macedonia was a Greek land and that ancient Macedonians were Greeks or that Macedonians are stealing Greek heritage, is nothing less and nothing more than a corrupt, deceitful fabricator of history whose (scientific) thinking—devoid of substance—is based on personal beliefs and mythical constructs. Facts are not derived from beliefs or mythology. Scientific knowledge does not rest on feelings, nor is it supported by bad-time stories and mythology. Science needs concrete, verifiable evidence. I can safely state that I stand on the shoulders of others; I stand convinced that (1) you will be unable to prove Strabo, Scylax, Dichaerchus, Scymnus, and Dionysius wrong. These biographers have stated that Greece commences at the Ambracian Gulf, and terminates at the river Peneus.I am convinced that (2) you will be unable to prove Aeschines, Theopompus and Pausanias wrong, for not including Macedonia on their lists of the Amphictyonic people of Greece. I stand convinced that (3) you will have no answer as to why Thucydides found no room for Macedonia on his list of states on either side of the warring parties in the Peloponnesian War. Macedonia is found neither on the Athenian, nor on the Lacedaemonian side. These are hard facts that cannot be dismissed with lame excuses and manipulation of text. One cannot disregard evidence of this magnitude and bring forward a pitiful assertion like ´Macedonians spread Hellenic culture in the East´, instead. One cannot substitute and equate the words of a king (Philip V) "My ancestors Philip II and Alexander the Great conquered Greece", with "but Macedonians had same names as Greeks", nonsense. You can saturate the media with slogans and cry "thieves" as long as you want, but you will be unable to subvert and change the evidence left from the ancient authors. Fact is that you have bought some professors to put their whimsical shoulder on your "Greek" wheel, but fact is also that you are stuck in the mud of lies up to your knees and cannot move. The following piece of evidence reaffirms my position and demonstrates, once again, that truth is not a manipulative currency and cannot be suppressed for long. The following passages were taken from the Canadian Macedonian Historical Society Review written by Alexander Nitsis: "As one of the powers which had guaranteed the independence of the Greek Kingdom in 1828, Great Britain held the position that the Greek claims to extension of their territories were greater (as of 1880) than the boundaries which the Greek city-states held in antiquity. This position was brought forward by Major J.C. Ardagh, (later became Sir Major-General). He was part of the British delegation that was attached to the Special Embassy during the Congress at Berlin on June 3rd, 1878. He was also appointed as her Majesty´s Commissioner for the delineation of the frontier of Bulgaria (September 7th, 1878); and was employed during the conference at Constantinople in 1881. Sir J.C. Ardagh was born on August 9, 1840, and died on September 30th, 1907. Before the Conference at Constantinople, Major Ardagh communicated with the British Foreign Office on the issue of the new Greek frontier with his "Memorandum on the Ancient Boundaries of Greece", which was received at the Foreign Office on February 24th, 1881. The information which Major Ardagh presented in his memorandum (quoting sources from antiquity) reaffirms claims made by Macedonians today that, Macedonia was never part of any Greek (Hellenic) state during ancient times. If ancient Greek sources did not see Macedonia as part of the "Ancient Greek World", how can the modern Greek state see Macedonia and its people as Greek? What Major Ardagh´s memorandum does raise is questions not only to the issue of the true Greek frontier, but also to the true identity of the people of Macedonia. Since 1913, the end of the Second Balkan War when Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia and Montenegro divided up Macedonia amongst themselves, Greece has been claiming that Macedonia was always Greek. Major Ardagh discredits this claims by quoting ancient Greeks themselves and shows that not only was Macedonia not Greek or part of ancient Greece and neither was Epirus or Thessaly. Doc. 41 Memorandum on the Ancient Boundaries of Greece By Major J.C. Ardagh, C.B., R.E. – (Received at the Foreign Office, February 24th, 1881.) The Ancient Boundaries of Greece As the claims of the Greeks to an extension of territories are in some degree based upon the limits of the ancient Greece, I conceived that an examination of the early Greek geographers would throw some light upon them, and I have been able to procure, and annex extracts from them in Greek with translations. Strabo, Scylax, Dichaerchus, Scymnus, and Dionysius all concur in making Greece commence at the Ambracian Gulf, and terminate at the river Peneus. The catalogue of the ships in the Iliad, the various lists of the Amphictyonic tribes, the states engaged in the Peloponnesian war, the travels of Anacharsis , the description of Greece by Pausanias, and the natural history of Pliny—all give proof of the same fact, by positive or negative evidence; nor have I found anywhere a suggestion that Epirus was Greek, except that Dodona, the great oracle, though situated amid barbarians, was a Greek institution, and the legend that the Molossian Kings were of the house of Aeacidae. When Epirus first became powerful, 280 B.C., Greece had long been under the complete ascendency of the Macedonians, and after the fall of the Empire at the battle of Pydna, 168 B.C., it became a Roman province in 148 B.C. The establishment of Greek independence in 1832 was exactly 2,000 years after the battle of Pydna. Strabo: (1) The tribes extending beyond the Ambracian Gulf to the eastward, and contiguous with the Peloponnesus, are Greek. (2) The tribes from the Strymon to the Pontic passes and Haemus are all Thracian, except on the coast which is inhabited by Greeks. (3) On the right of the entrance (of the Ambracian Gulf) dwell the Acarnanians, a Greek tribe. On the left is Nicopolis and the Kassopaeans, an Epirote tribe. (4) The Peneus divides Lower and Maritime Macedonia from Thessaly and Magnesia, and Haliacmon Upper Macedonia. (5) But the Peneus bounds Macedonia towards the north, and Thessaly towards the south. Scylax: Periplus:-- (1) From Ambracia Greece is continuous (along the coast) as far as the river Peneus. (2) Up to this point (the country of the Magnesians) Greece is continuous from Ambracia. Dicaearchus: (1) I therefore draw the limits of Hellas at the country of the Magnesians, i.e., to the Vale of Tempe. Scymnus: (1) Obove Tempe towards Olympus is the region of the Macedonians. (The writer describes the Thesprotians, Chaonians, Molossians and the inhabitants of the interior of Epirus, as barbarian. 430-460.) (2) Greece is continuous from Ambracia to the Peneus. Homer: In the catalogue of the ships in the second book of the Iliad, Acarnania, Aetolia and Thessaly are the most northern districts mentioned. The others are Boetia, Phocis, Locris, Euboea, Athens, Salamis, Argos, Mycinae, Laconia, Messenia, Arcadia, Crete, Rhodes, and Isles. The amphictyonic people. The names are given by Aeschines, Theopompus and Pausanias: Aeschines: Thessalians, Boeotians, Dorians, Perrhaebeans, Magnetes, Locrians, Aeteans, Phthiotes, Maleans, Phocians. Theopmpus: Ionians, Dorians, Perrhaebeans, Magnetes, Achaeans, Maleans, Dolopes, Aeneans, Delphians, Phocians, Phthiotes Pausanias: Ionians, Diopes, Thessalians, Magnetes, Maleans, Phthiotes, Dorians, Of these, none belong to Epirus; indeed there are neither Aetolians nor Acarnanians. Thermopylae: The next catalogue which throws light on the subject is that of forces under the command of Leonidas at Thermopylae. They are enumerated by Herodotus, Pausanias, and Deodorus as follows: Peloponnesians, Thespians, Thebans, Phocians, and Locrians (or Milesians). Forming in fact, something less than the present limits of Greece. Thucydides: In book II of the Peloponnesian War, Thucydides gives a catalogue of the states ranged on either side as follows: With the Lacedaemonians: All the Peloponnesians except the Argives and Achaeans, the Megareans, Locrians, Boeotians, Phocians, Ambraciots, Leucadians, and Anactoreans With the Athenians: Chians, Lesbians, Plataeans, Messenians of Neopactus, most of the Acarnanians, the Corcyraeans, Zacynthians, with certain islands and colonies. Anacharsis: Travels in Greece, 357 B.C. There are 14 other nations in Epirus. Pausanias does not even mention Epirus Pliny: Natural History, book IV: He places mount Olympus in Thessaly, but does not precisely define the boundary of Macedonia, which he describes as extending to the Adriatic." With this illustration by Ardagh, the Greek cries of "Macedonia is Greece", is shown once again to be nothing more than a fabrication. The ancient boundaries of Greece do not coincide with the modern Greek borders. These ancient frontiers of Greece are the basis which the present Greek state is using for the claims on Macedonia. This is certainly another piece of evidence that reaffirms the inadmissibility of the Greeks´ claims that "Macedonia was always Greek". Time and again, this blatant lie is being exposed for what it really represents—a flagrant and shamelessly executed subversion of historical truth—heist of unparallel historical proportions never before seen in the history of mankind. What is so arrogantly flaunted as Greek heritage is nothing but a stolen property from the Macedonians. Between these rampant Greek lies and deceptions and the silence of the European academicians, who, certainly, know the truth, runs the menacing current of the biased and the hypocritical attitude of Europe itself. Human rights issues in Greece are of paramount importance and Europe remains silent. By not addressing these obvious violations of its own constitution, Europe undermines its own reputation. By not attending to these flames of hatred and racism exhibited by the Greek government, Europe diminishes its own stature and weakens its own institutions. Europe must find courage to tell Greece, simply to "grow up", as said by former US Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger in the interview for the Macedonian Television. And in the words of the former German ambassador to the Republic of Macedonia, Hans Lothar Schteppan, Europe must recognize that "Greece’s strong objection to the name was laid on a foundation of lies". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Letsbeheard ( talk • contribs) 12:34, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Macedonia was not only Hellenic from the early Greek history until nowadays, but it also was greek-speaking area all the time. See
Pella curse tablet for instance. From early 6th century BC, 5th century BC, 4th century BC, 3th century BC, 2th century BC, 1th century BC, 1th century AD, 2th century AD, 3th century AD, 4th century AD, 5th century AD, 6th century AD, 7th century AD, 8th century AD, 9th century AD, 10th century AD, 11th century AD, 12th century AD, 13th century AD, 14th century AD, 15th century AD, 16th century AD, 17th century AD and 18th century AD, the only people who called themselves Macedonians, and they signed as Macedonians were only Greeks and nothing else. How can you explain this?
And also our fathers, our grand fathers, our grand grand ..... grand fathers were always called Macedonians. Say what ever you want, for Greece, but we, the indigenous Macedonians, will give the answer again, as we always did, against our northern neighbores. You want the name "Macedonia" for your selves? Then have it. We can borrow you our name. I am sure you like it. Because we are generous. How many years you thik you can keep it? 50 years? 100 years? 200 years? Then, another nation will come from the north and you will disappear. But we, the indigenous Macedonians, will still be here, as we are here for thousands of years.
User:Pyraechmes We were here before you came and we will be here after you leave
23:20, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
If 1000 years from now an English text is found in Turkey will the Historians automaticly say, Yeah this was English empire in the past??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.180.181.152 ( talk) 06:41, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Well, it appears to be a Greek dialect that we've not found again- and, on top of that, FYROM's geographic position doesn't coincide with Ancient Macedonia- they've got nothing to do with the Ancient Macedonians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.69.58 ( talk) 21:10, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Hallow. There are any questions with incorrect name of a similar article in Russian Wikipedia. If these people are called Macedonians (individual name of the nation), they are not Greeks. And if they are Greeks, it should be called "The Greeks of Macedonia" or "Macedonian Greeks". It is written that they are a regional group, as: "Yorkshiremen (Englishmen)"??? Maksimilian karlovich ( talk) 15:03, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
"If these people are called Macedonians (individual name of the nation), they are not Greeks" how is this not textbook POV? These 3.5 million people (more than the "ethnic" Macedonians) identify as equally both and reject the distinction between the two identities. They have a right to their culture just like your people so live and let live. Macedonian contributors seem to think that if they vandalize enough Greek articles the world will just hand them all of the geographical Macedonia on a platter and make all the other ethnicities on the area go away but life doesn’t work that way. CapJoe2 ( talk) 16:55, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Since nobody seems interested in discussing challenged initial reverts on the talkpage (when asked to do so) on this page that seems to have a substantial history of vandalism, I'm going to let both the Mackridge and the Shea quote stand, while re adding the "page needed" tag for the Mackridge one (originally added by User:Judist). We will see if any more information about that is forthcoming. Gerard von Hebel ( talk) 22:35, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
The author of the source itself used the term Aegean Macedonia, not me. Since you politely asked me I am providing you the statistics [2] [3], the total number of refugees in Macedonia is 776,000 as described here [4] including refugees from countries other than Turkey, this is more than half of both the total population of the region and the total number of refugees. SR, I don't seem to disagree with you for anything, unless you insist unverified sources without pages given to remain in the article. I am not arguing that Maceodnian Greeks are no desendands of the Ancient, but no verification is provided. If the sources are not verified then they should simply be removed, this is my simple view. I don't insist the refugee information to be in the intro if the unverified source, alleged for claiming that Greek Macedonians descend from the Ancient is removed. Whether you are going to move the information for refugees to other sections or articles it doesn't matter, it is already stated there. I don’t wish to argue more on the topic as the discussion escalates longer than needed. Only the part that fails verification should be deleted. Thank you for your time. Judist ( talk) 02:00, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
It seems rather obvious to me that (Not taking into account the somewhat recent post Lausanne deportations and resettlements, which should be mentioned in the article, I agree with User:Judist there!) most people that resided in Greek Macedonia before 1923, are somehow descended from the Macedons of ancient times. But that goes for the Greeks, Slavs, Turks and Aromunians and what have you, alike. That is simply a function of a sensible understanding of the statistics and knowledge about how ethnic changes in a limited piece of territory generally go about. I live in a territory which is now Saxon speaking, but was Frisian speaking some hundreds of years ago. Mostly Protestant now but Catholic before and it's pretty obvious that I descend from Frisians, Saxons, Protestants and Catholics alike. Who do you suppose the people of Turkey (Anatolia) mostly descend from? Exactly! The people who have always lived there and who's ancestors have identified with a multitude of ethnicities from Hittite to Phrygian to Greek to Turk! With more or less substantial influx from outside at times of course, but still.... Pages should be named of course when it comes to sources, but I feel a different approach to this matter is sorely needed. Gerard von Hebel ( talk) 18:35, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
I firmly disagree with this logic, dear Gerard von Hebel. These are fringe theories. If immigration has to be considered as a factor determining the ancestral/heritage rights for a group, then, I am afraid, dear Gerard von Hebel, the world's communities will have to be re-organized and re-thinked for their origins, because, in your respective, only a very small percentage of the world's total population are true descendants (in the genetics sense) of locals who lived before them in the same areas (remember, there is also the internal migration, which along with the urbanization and decentralization, has affected roughly the 90% of the world's total population). And even so, does this permits the remaining 10% of the world's population, to question the history and homes of the 90% which is the majority? Absolutely not. And in spite of the fact that the humanity has been through two World Wars, medieval climate changes, and internal migrations, all of which have caused a drastic change in world population. So, respect your heritage even if it is uncertain that you are a Frisian or a Saxon by genetics, because your heritage is not based solely on genetics, but on your political association, your birthplace, your homeland, your culture, your ethnicity, your society and your language. Ah, and do not forget that the same right is recognized for all the Greeks currently living in the region of Macedonia, as it is for Saxons in Saxonia, the Ethnic Macedonians in Macedonia, and the Italians in Italy. But at least, consider yourself lucky in that your country where you do live (I assume it is Netherlands?) does not share land borders with other countries stylizing themselves as Republic of Saxonia or Republic of Frisia, because at least that saves you from the trouble of being semiologically confused with a namesake country you are not associated with, as is the unfortunate case of the Greek Macedonians and the Republic of Macedonia. Have a good day. -- SILENTRESIDENT ( talk) 20:22, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
and the ethnic cleansing policies of the Bulgarian authorities. - Is there a source for this? Bulgaria officially annexed the occupied territories, which had long been a target of Bulgarian irredentism, on 14 May 1941.[37] - Bulgaria, at that time, couldn't annex anything without the supervision of the Reich. Jotaro97 ( talk) 16:23, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
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Acts 20:1-2 King James Version (KJV) 20 And after the uproar was ceased, Paul called unto him the disciples, and embraced them, and departed for to go into Macedonia.
2 And when he had gone over those parts, and had given them much exhortation, he came into Greece,
ΠΡΑΞΕΙΣ ΤΩΝ ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΩΝ - 20 1 Μετὰ δὲ τὸ παύσασθαι τὸν θόρυβον προσκαλεσάμενος ὁ Παῦλος τοὺς μαθητὰς καὶ ἀσπασάμενος ἐξῆλθε πορευθῆναι εἰς Μακεδονίαν. 2 διελθὼν δὲ τὰ μέρη ἐκεῖνα καὶ παρακαλέσας αὐτοὺς λόγῳ πολλῷ ἦλθεν εἰς τὴν ῾Ελλάδα·
Acts 27:2
King James Version (KJV)
2 And entering into a ship of Adramyttium, we launched, meaning to sail by the coasts of Asia; one Aristarchus, a Macedonian of Thessalonica, being with us.
ΠΡΑΞΕΙΣ ΤΩΝ ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΩΝ - 27 2 ἐπιβάντες δὲ πλοίῳ Ἀδραμυττηνῷ μέλλοντες πλεῖν τοὺς κατὰ τὴν Ἀσίαν τόπους ἀνήχθημεν, ὄντος σὺν ἡμῖν Ἀριστάρχου Μακεδόνος Θεσσαλονικέως, — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geliefde Liefde ( talk • contribs) 23:01, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
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I see that reverts and negationism such as https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Macedonians_(Greeks)&diff=910302497&oldid=910302391 are a big problem on this page. There are thousands of sources that state Slavic is still spoken among Greek Macedonians such as [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] and countless more
Calling all sources stated here "original research or novel syntheses" such as User:Dr.K. has is blatant POV and denialism at its finest. Would you also consider all the evidence and sources provided in Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia as being unreliable because they don't align with your POV?
Also a collection of references that accentuate why the statement "Notably, they have a heritage and identity distinct from that of the Slavic Macedonians" is utter POV, and why we need reliable citations to back up the statement: [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19]
By the way, I brought up genetics since the lead of the article states a distinct heritage which mean an distinct genetics and ancestry to ethnic Macedonians." Nope. The heritage of the people is historical, cultural and linguistic. Genetics isn't the focus here, and we shouldn't go by labeling people based on genetics. This is racist. if the people consider themselves to be their own distinct group, then as Wikipedia, we can do nothing about it but simply respect the reality. Self-determination of people is one of Wikipedia community's principal ethics. Now if you have sources claiming this or that, I am not going to rebuke them, but I strongly object using them in such a disruptive way that causes friction among Wikipedia editors of different views, like how you already are doing right now. Many editors who visit these pages, as well as readers, take pride in their heritange, be it historical, linguistic, or cultural. None, including you and your sources on genetics, are to dictate how the others are called or defined. Understand? I highly recommend you drop this disruptive approach to any articles related to the region of Macedonia and its people, because it is well-known for being multicultural and the homeland of many different groups that bear different political views, ethnic origins and linguistic/cultural heritages.
If you can make it more explicit that a large contingent of Greek Macedonians descend from refugees that arrived from outside of Macedonia during the 1923 population exchange, then yes you can say that those three criteria are satisfied." I am saddened to hear this overused argument which, in case you haven't realized, is the primary argument heard only by far-right nationalist Macedonians whose goal is no one other than to downplay and diminish the Macedonian idendity of the refugees who have come from other parts of the world and settled here, or, as worse, promote theirs at the expense of the idendity of others. I don't know what you have in your mind, but the refugees of 1900s can be as Macedonian as the Slav migrants of the 1000s. It doesn't matter where one's grandparents come from, the people residing in the region of Macedonia today, including the Greek portions of it, are real Macedonians, like it or not. Idendity isn't about blood or genetics. Idendity is about a person's consciousness, lifestyle, culture, language, political affiliations and choices. Simple as that. This is already reflected with a single keyword within the article's lead. A keyword which usually does not escapes most editor's attention. Let me copy-paste the sentence with the keyword contained: "The Macedonians (Greek: Μακεδόνες, Makedónes) or Greek Macedonians are a regional and historical population group of ethnic Greeks, inhabiting or originating mainly from the Greek region of Macedonia" I hope I have been clear on this. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 22:41, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Sure I'll be happy to fetch more references and sources, but I need you to show me why that will be worth my time by clarifying why reference [20] for example is against Wikipedia's guidelines when it's a government source and has nothing to do with original research or synthesis as it explicitly states what I'm trying to get to here - to avoid going through all this again once I get more sources." Please familiarize yourself with WP:RELEVANT which is one of Wikipedia's most important assays and the reason your edits in this article are being reverted. The source from State.Gov you are trying to add here, is WP:RELEVANT to the other article, not here. If you are not capable of complying with Wikipedia's guidelines and rules and failure in seeing your errors in spite three editors trying, for whole days, to explain your errors, and your insistence in your faulty positions despite this increasingly lengthy discussion then, I can't help but wonder about your competence as an editor. Usually most editors are able to understand Wikipedia's rules and which articles are wp:relevant to the information they want to add. No matter how many more sources you find, they won't be added here since this is the wrong article for it. The State.Gov source talks about Slavophone Greeks, not Grecophone Greeks. Unless you can find sources backing your claim that the Greeks of Greek linguistic origin and Greek cultural background are same people as Greeks of Slavic linguistic origin and Slavic cultural background, then not only you will fail to gain any WP:CONSENSUS for adding this source here, but also your future attempts to add it will be reverted. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 13:27, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
I am indeed competent enough to edit, for your information. So we go from WP:OR and WP:SYNTH to WP:RELEVANT? I was looking for information on how my source failed criteria specified by WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. For WP:RELEVANT to hold, you are treating Macedonians (Greeks) and Slavophone Greeks as two totally disjoint groups, which is not true, and if it is in the context of the article, it does a poor job differentiating the two groups. I'm also sure that with respect to self declaration most Slavophone Greeks will not be happy to be classified outside Greek Macedonians. I see where you are getting at with WP:RELEVANT, but we need the article to do a better job of differentiating the two groups. If this is achieved I can rest my case with the language and the heritage term. Beat of the tapan ( talk) 11:11, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
go from WP:OR and WP:SYNTH to WP:RELEVANT" as it is your efforts to make sources WP:RELEVANT to this article through WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. This is a serious violation of Wikipedia's rules and it cannot be tolerated. WP:OR and WP:SYNTH aren't and cannot be tolerated in any way and form, as this damages the project's accountability towards the readers.
treating Macedonians (Greeks) and Slavophone Greeks as two totally disjoint groups". I wasn't the one who created the two separate articles about the two groups, nor I was involved in this article's creation and expansion, nor I participated in any consensus-building, not had I added any sources to it myself. I am merely defending the article against your needless disruption. Simple as that.
most Slavophone Greeks will not be happy to be classified outside Greek Macedoniansis not the scope of this or that other article. (Whatever the people consider themselves, is fully respected and none is in position to tell them who they are and how to feel.) We are in Wikipedia, and, for encyclopedic purposes, Wikipedia's role is to provide verifiable and accurate information on the various groups which reside in the region of Macedonia, using reliable sources. There is a reason each group has its own article, regardless of how one group relates with others. Because the outstanding majority of the sources has these people groupped separately, primarily for linguistic purposes. If you are not satisfied with that, then go send your complaints to the world's scholars and linguists, not to me. Personally, I am against the concept of ethnicities, borders, separation and groupping of peoples in the globe based on races, languages, religions, ethnicities and sexual orientations, as I consider all people to be just humans and this is what really matters, at the end. But, whatever I may believe, is none of Wikipedia's concern or business, as the project does not take in consideration and account the beliefs/opinions of editors (in short, editorial POV), only what reliable sources do say. Now, if you can't gasp the obvious things about how Wikipedia works and content is created/tagged, then it is not my problem, is yours. Dont expect me to continue this unproductive discussion, and do not expect further replies by me on this. I spent more time here than I normally could.
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Guys I have a question here. Prespes Agreement changed the view on both Greek and Slavic views on Macedonia. So reading article 7.2 it gives a linear historical version of Greek Macedonia whist a national view on the Slavic Macedonia. So as per the Prespes we rebranded the Macedonians (ethnic group) from Macedonian Slavs to Macedonian people. Should we remain consistent and replace Greek Macedonians with Modern Macedonians? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Melathron ( talk • contribs) 08:45, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
I agree. Then why Wikipedia accepted the change in the Macedonians(Ethnic Group) from Macedonian Slavs to Macedonian people when the Prespes Agreement put in place ? If we revert to Macedonians slavs and retain the old set it makes sense otherwise we have to include the Prespes approach for both parties, hence modern Macedonians vs Macedonian people as per Prespes — Preceding unsigned comment added by Melathron ( talk • contribs) 09:08, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Then why Wikipedia accepted the change in the Macedonians(Ethnic Group) from Macedonian Slavs to Macedonian people when the Prespes Agreement put in place ?@ Melathron: Sorry but you got it all wrong so let me correct you: Wikipedia called them simply Macedonians already a long while before Prespa Agreement came to existence, so better get your facts straight. Just because Prespa Agreement came, doesn't mean Wikipedia will have to adopt more confusing terms for these groups of people, or worse, change the descriptive terms the people used to call them by. Wikipedia isn't bound by internatonal treaties in any way. Plus, there is a reason Wikipedia has chosen these descriptive terms for the modern Macedonian groups: The modern slavic group is idendifying on ethnic grounds, so they are called Ethnic Macedonians, the other modern group is Greek based, so they are called Greek Macedonians. These terms are descriptive and in no way do imply that the Ethnic Macedonians and Greek Macedonians aren't modern-day groups; they are modern, just of different cultural and political associations. By using simply "modern" for descripting both groups, you are generating more problems than solving, both for the editors as well as for the readers. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 10:52, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
It was decided this page would be called Macedonians (Greeks) rather than Greek Macedonians. However, the words "Greek Macedonians" are used many times in the article. Should all instances of "Greek Macedonians" be changed to "Macedonians"? This wikipedia already makes it clear it's talking about the Greek ethnic group rather than the Slavic one. Apples&Manzanas ( talk) 23:02, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
There is a question are all Greek Macedonians today native to that area? Please, keep in mind that 1,000 000 Greek refugees natives of Asia Minor, Thrace and the Black Sea areas fled during the Greek genocide (1914-1923) and Greece's later defeat in the Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922) moved to today Greek borders. The core of the refugee population settled in today Greek Macedonia, i.e. 638,253 or 52% (with 270,000 in Thessaloniki alone). Moreover, in the last ca. hundred years since the region has been part of Greece, it has been normal to have internal migration. This means that large masses of Greeks from other regions have settled in Macedonia. So to claim that the Greeks of today are all of local origin is not serious. Jingiby ( talk) 10:55, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
The term 'Macedonian' has been used as a demonym since ancient times to refer to the inhabitants of the region. This article is specifically about the Greeks that have been inhabiting Macedonia and who have had a historical presence here of thousands of years, from the ancient kingdom of Macedonia to the Roman and Byzantine periods up until today. They've had a presence all around the Macedonian region, not just the modern day greek part of it. You can certainly focus only on the inhabiting aspect and say that the term is for those who only live in the Greek Macedonia region (which is entirely correct) but if you want to talk about origins then it's necessary to point out that Greeks have been present everywhere in the wider region of Macedonia.
The Wiki page about Slavic Macedonians mentions that they are an ethnic group native to the entire Macedonian region which is untrue since they're Slavs originating from Northern Europe. How is that acceptable but my objection isn't?
No, it's not. It's literally mentioned in the first paragraph of the History section that it is about the Greeks and not all residents. The previous edit makes it sound as if Greek Macedonians have existed historically only in the modern Greek region of Macedonia which is entirely untrue. That's why I made the distinction between origin and residence. Originally they've been around the entire region ever since ancient times. If you want to make the term generic for all the residents then you should specify it in the intro alongside what I said about the origin.
The edit war accusation on my talk page is quite tragically ironic. You ask me not to insist on editing something EVEN if I believe I'm right but a false statement on a page should remain the same and not be changed even if wrong. Makes sense.
@Apples&Manzanas Thanks for your support mate. I noticed we were in agreement judging by the editing history. But Jingiby agreed with a neutrality dispute and that's enough for me for a start. -- Ronbb345
I don't understand what you mean. The area is indeed already inhabited by Macedonian Greeks. -- Ronbb345
Spot on, Apples&Manzanas. I've noticed this type of bias in numerous such articles about origins/ethnicity. Thanks -- Ronbb345
I've been blocked because I've argued by pointing out the obvious based on historical facts. My apologies. Next time, I'll resort to accepting nationalist propaganda per Jingiby's request. -- Ronbb345 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronbb345 ( talk • contribs) 09:47, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
What reliable source should I provide for the introduction?! It's literally written in the first paragraph of the History section that Greeks have existed in Macedonia since ancient times and I'm simply pointing this out in the introduction, as well. You consider the continuity between Ancient Macedonians and modern ones a myth but you're absolutely okay with Slavic Macedonians being considered native to the entire region despite them neither having a historical presence in it nor the term being used for anyone outside the country of North Macedonia. -- Ronbb345 Ronbb345 ( talk) 13:38, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
"As far as Greek Macedonia is concerned, the exchange of populations between Bulgaria and Greece (‘voluntary’, 1919 onwards) and between Turkey and Greece (compulsory, 1923 onwards), provided for by the Treaties of Neuilly and Lausanne respectively, dramatically altered the ethnographic picture of that area. More than 600,000 Greek refugees were settled in Macedonia, mainly in its eastern part, while over 50,000 Slavs left Greece. Before 1923, the Greeks were a minority in their own northern province, but after the coming of the refugees the Hellenization of Greek Macedonia became reality. According to the Greek census of 1928, there were about 80,000 Slav-speakers in northern Greece, which is undoubtedly a gross underestimate, for Greek archival sources give a much higher number: about 200,000. According to the same sources, however, the majority were just peasants, while the ‘Bulgarians’, that is those who displayed a Bulgarian national consciousness, were about 80,000. Despite the Slav exodus from Greek Macedonia, a by-product of population exchanges, fear, and oppression on the part of the Greek state, solid Slav enclaves remained in the Greek province, and particularly in the districts of Florina, and Kastoria, in Greek west Macedonia."@Jingiby what do you reckon. Should there be incorporation some of Livanios into the article for clarification? Resnjari ( talk) 15:29, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
More than 100,000 refugees came to Thessaloniki, increasing its population by half. After the Balkan Wars, Greeks were a minority in the territories of 'New Greece', they became a majority after the population exchange and Greece became "...one of the most ethnically homogenous countries in the Balkans". I don't know about the exact statement that Greeks were a minority in the new territories overall, but you get the point. We don't need to literally discuss all of this. The page does already mention that in 1928, 45% of the pop'l was refugees. What it's missing is minor points about the former size of certain minority communities so as not to sweep them under the rug, and some minor cosmetic issues ("Heroic" is not NPOV, Bulgarians/Macedonians/Turks read this page too fyi, etc.).-- Calthinus ( talk) 19:18, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
This article is specifically about the ethnic Greeks that have been living in Macedonia, not the people of various backgrounds that inhabit it. Ethnic Greeks have been living all around the entire Macedonian region, starting from the ancient times with the Ancient Macedonians and spreading all around the area throughout history as its borders were being expanded and/or reduced depending on the period. And I simply want to point this historical fact in the introductory paragraph. Because saying that Greeks only originate from the Greek region of Macedonia is like saying that Greeks appeared in Macedonia in the 20th century after Greece became a fully unified modern nation which is tremendously incorrect and historically false.
You are absolutely okay with the page of Slavic Macedonians, a term invented for the inhabitants of the recent state of North Macedonia, mention that they originate from the wider region of Macedonia even though they are Slavs who originally came from Northern Europe just like the rest of their tribe but you oppose to me pointing out that one of the earliest actual inhabitants of this region ever since the ancient times have always existed all around it.
Look, I've come to the realisation that this website is unbelievably biased and this incident right here is only just a tiny example of the awful misinformation taking place so I don't know if I'm interested in discussing it any further. You are obviously accepting nationalist, unfounded propaganda from North Macedonia and no further edits are going to take place. I contained myself and refrained from even pointing out the obvious. That these people shouldn't even be called Macedonians. They are Slavs with absolutely no relation to Macedonia. I avoided engaging in that disagreement. You, on the other hand, are blatantly biased. A pity.
-- Ronbb345 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronbb345 ( talk • contribs) 19:49, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
Interesting that today Khirurg states that I need consensus for removal on this article, but yesterday he/she thought I needed consensus to keep longstanding content on the ethnic Macedonians page. Anyway, the reason for removal is following some of @ TU-nor:'s recent edits that official symbols of political entities should not be included in the infobox of ethnic group articles (such as in Albanians, Bulgarians, and Slovenes). I tend to agree with this that it's not best for the infobox. However, there are plenty of examples of flags being used in ethnic group articles such as in Italians and Russians. One user, @ SilentResident:, if I understand correctly, supports removing all symbols from all ethnic group articles. I'm not sure anyone else supports that, I certainly don't find any sense in that and think descriptions of symbols that ethnic groups identify with of course belong on these articles. With regard to this specific article, the flag of the Greek region of Macedonia is included twice. -- Local hero talk 02:19, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
support the presence of symbols on articles. I do neither support nor oppose them on principle. I oppose them if I find them undue, I support their mention if it is notable. I have stated just above here that "national or regional flags do usually not have any place in the infobox of ethnic groups", which is why I have lately removed national flags from the infoboxes of Macedonians (ethnic group), Albanians, Moldavians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Czechs and today Greeks. I can think of cases where such flags may be appropriate, but they are very few.
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Lately, users are vandalizing, mostly for political reasons, this page. Maybe can we add some sort of protection or lock it, at least temporarily? -- SilentResident ( talk) 12:24, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
We should do something with the template, too. I don't think it's at the appropriate size. User:Pyraechmes Chrusts 19:35, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
Macedonia was never a part of the ancient Hellenic city-states
One of the steps in the Scientific Method of Investigation is the publication of your obtained results. This is done, so that others by repeating the same experiment using same methodology may independently arrive to the same conclusion and verify whether it is true what you have accomplished with your own hypothesis. Once many independent laboratories—through their scientific research—confirm your results, then, the hypothesis that you have proposed becomes accepted and your findings acknowledged. I have said before, and I stand by my assertions that: (a) Macedonia was never a part of any ancient Greek city-state, nor were the ancient Macedonians ever considered by the ancient Greeks or by themselves, to be Greek. (b) Macedonia was never a member of any Hellenic League. Macedonia was not a member of the Greek Amphictyonic League either. Fact is that membership into these leagues was reserved for Hellenes only. And since Macedonians were not considered Hellenes, they were not admitted into these leagues. There is no record of either side voicing displeasure regarding this rule. And (c) in antiquity people knew that the boundary between Macedonia and Greece was the river Peneus and mount Olympus; to the south were the Greek tribes and to the north was Macedonia. I challenge all of you lecturers of history, including Professor Stephan Miller and his like-minded historians, to dispute my assertions and prove me wrong. When you claim or support a claim that "Macedonia was always Greek", it is incumbent upon you—academic standards compel—to find at least one shred of evidence from the ancient chroniclers and bring it forward. Find other authors from antiquity who will agree with your own assertion. And please, instead of shielding yourself with ambiguous interpretations from the 18th and the 19th century philhellenic writers, convince the readers with valid, persuasive arguments. Bring to the table solid, irrefutable evidence from the ancient Greeks themselves or their contemporary Greek or Roman biographers and chroniclers. I will go on the limb and reiterate my opinion regarding the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians: Anyone who claims that ancient Macedonia was a Greek land and that ancient Macedonians were Greeks or that Macedonians are stealing Greek heritage, is nothing less and nothing more than a corrupt, deceitful fabricator of history whose (scientific) thinking—devoid of substance—is based on personal beliefs and mythical constructs. Facts are not derived from beliefs or mythology. Scientific knowledge does not rest on feelings, nor is it supported by bad-time stories and mythology. Science needs concrete, verifiable evidence. I can safely state that I stand on the shoulders of others; I stand convinced that (1) you will be unable to prove Strabo, Scylax, Dichaerchus, Scymnus, and Dionysius wrong. These biographers have stated that Greece commences at the Ambracian Gulf, and terminates at the river Peneus.I am convinced that (2) you will be unable to prove Aeschines, Theopompus and Pausanias wrong, for not including Macedonia on their lists of the Amphictyonic people of Greece. I stand convinced that (3) you will have no answer as to why Thucydides found no room for Macedonia on his list of states on either side of the warring parties in the Peloponnesian War. Macedonia is found neither on the Athenian, nor on the Lacedaemonian side. These are hard facts that cannot be dismissed with lame excuses and manipulation of text. One cannot disregard evidence of this magnitude and bring forward a pitiful assertion like ´Macedonians spread Hellenic culture in the East´, instead. One cannot substitute and equate the words of a king (Philip V) "My ancestors Philip II and Alexander the Great conquered Greece", with "but Macedonians had same names as Greeks", nonsense. You can saturate the media with slogans and cry "thieves" as long as you want, but you will be unable to subvert and change the evidence left from the ancient authors. Fact is that you have bought some professors to put their whimsical shoulder on your "Greek" wheel, but fact is also that you are stuck in the mud of lies up to your knees and cannot move. The following piece of evidence reaffirms my position and demonstrates, once again, that truth is not a manipulative currency and cannot be suppressed for long. The following passages were taken from the Canadian Macedonian Historical Society Review written by Alexander Nitsis: "As one of the powers which had guaranteed the independence of the Greek Kingdom in 1828, Great Britain held the position that the Greek claims to extension of their territories were greater (as of 1880) than the boundaries which the Greek city-states held in antiquity. This position was brought forward by Major J.C. Ardagh, (later became Sir Major-General). He was part of the British delegation that was attached to the Special Embassy during the Congress at Berlin on June 3rd, 1878. He was also appointed as her Majesty´s Commissioner for the delineation of the frontier of Bulgaria (September 7th, 1878); and was employed during the conference at Constantinople in 1881. Sir J.C. Ardagh was born on August 9, 1840, and died on September 30th, 1907. Before the Conference at Constantinople, Major Ardagh communicated with the British Foreign Office on the issue of the new Greek frontier with his "Memorandum on the Ancient Boundaries of Greece", which was received at the Foreign Office on February 24th, 1881. The information which Major Ardagh presented in his memorandum (quoting sources from antiquity) reaffirms claims made by Macedonians today that, Macedonia was never part of any Greek (Hellenic) state during ancient times. If ancient Greek sources did not see Macedonia as part of the "Ancient Greek World", how can the modern Greek state see Macedonia and its people as Greek? What Major Ardagh´s memorandum does raise is questions not only to the issue of the true Greek frontier, but also to the true identity of the people of Macedonia. Since 1913, the end of the Second Balkan War when Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia and Montenegro divided up Macedonia amongst themselves, Greece has been claiming that Macedonia was always Greek. Major Ardagh discredits this claims by quoting ancient Greeks themselves and shows that not only was Macedonia not Greek or part of ancient Greece and neither was Epirus or Thessaly. Doc. 41 Memorandum on the Ancient Boundaries of Greece By Major J.C. Ardagh, C.B., R.E. – (Received at the Foreign Office, February 24th, 1881.) The Ancient Boundaries of Greece As the claims of the Greeks to an extension of territories are in some degree based upon the limits of the ancient Greece, I conceived that an examination of the early Greek geographers would throw some light upon them, and I have been able to procure, and annex extracts from them in Greek with translations. Strabo, Scylax, Dichaerchus, Scymnus, and Dionysius all concur in making Greece commence at the Ambracian Gulf, and terminate at the river Peneus. The catalogue of the ships in the Iliad, the various lists of the Amphictyonic tribes, the states engaged in the Peloponnesian war, the travels of Anacharsis , the description of Greece by Pausanias, and the natural history of Pliny—all give proof of the same fact, by positive or negative evidence; nor have I found anywhere a suggestion that Epirus was Greek, except that Dodona, the great oracle, though situated amid barbarians, was a Greek institution, and the legend that the Molossian Kings were of the house of Aeacidae. When Epirus first became powerful, 280 B.C., Greece had long been under the complete ascendency of the Macedonians, and after the fall of the Empire at the battle of Pydna, 168 B.C., it became a Roman province in 148 B.C. The establishment of Greek independence in 1832 was exactly 2,000 years after the battle of Pydna. Strabo: (1) The tribes extending beyond the Ambracian Gulf to the eastward, and contiguous with the Peloponnesus, are Greek. (2) The tribes from the Strymon to the Pontic passes and Haemus are all Thracian, except on the coast which is inhabited by Greeks. (3) On the right of the entrance (of the Ambracian Gulf) dwell the Acarnanians, a Greek tribe. On the left is Nicopolis and the Kassopaeans, an Epirote tribe. (4) The Peneus divides Lower and Maritime Macedonia from Thessaly and Magnesia, and Haliacmon Upper Macedonia. (5) But the Peneus bounds Macedonia towards the north, and Thessaly towards the south. Scylax: Periplus:-- (1) From Ambracia Greece is continuous (along the coast) as far as the river Peneus. (2) Up to this point (the country of the Magnesians) Greece is continuous from Ambracia. Dicaearchus: (1) I therefore draw the limits of Hellas at the country of the Magnesians, i.e., to the Vale of Tempe. Scymnus: (1) Obove Tempe towards Olympus is the region of the Macedonians. (The writer describes the Thesprotians, Chaonians, Molossians and the inhabitants of the interior of Epirus, as barbarian. 430-460.) (2) Greece is continuous from Ambracia to the Peneus. Homer: In the catalogue of the ships in the second book of the Iliad, Acarnania, Aetolia and Thessaly are the most northern districts mentioned. The others are Boetia, Phocis, Locris, Euboea, Athens, Salamis, Argos, Mycinae, Laconia, Messenia, Arcadia, Crete, Rhodes, and Isles. The amphictyonic people. The names are given by Aeschines, Theopompus and Pausanias: Aeschines: Thessalians, Boeotians, Dorians, Perrhaebeans, Magnetes, Locrians, Aeteans, Phthiotes, Maleans, Phocians. Theopmpus: Ionians, Dorians, Perrhaebeans, Magnetes, Achaeans, Maleans, Dolopes, Aeneans, Delphians, Phocians, Phthiotes Pausanias: Ionians, Diopes, Thessalians, Magnetes, Maleans, Phthiotes, Dorians, Of these, none belong to Epirus; indeed there are neither Aetolians nor Acarnanians. Thermopylae: The next catalogue which throws light on the subject is that of forces under the command of Leonidas at Thermopylae. They are enumerated by Herodotus, Pausanias, and Deodorus as follows: Peloponnesians, Thespians, Thebans, Phocians, and Locrians (or Milesians). Forming in fact, something less than the present limits of Greece. Thucydides: In book II of the Peloponnesian War, Thucydides gives a catalogue of the states ranged on either side as follows: With the Lacedaemonians: All the Peloponnesians except the Argives and Achaeans, the Megareans, Locrians, Boeotians, Phocians, Ambraciots, Leucadians, and Anactoreans With the Athenians: Chians, Lesbians, Plataeans, Messenians of Neopactus, most of the Acarnanians, the Corcyraeans, Zacynthians, with certain islands and colonies. Anacharsis: Travels in Greece, 357 B.C. There are 14 other nations in Epirus. Pausanias does not even mention Epirus Pliny: Natural History, book IV: He places mount Olympus in Thessaly, but does not precisely define the boundary of Macedonia, which he describes as extending to the Adriatic." With this illustration by Ardagh, the Greek cries of "Macedonia is Greece", is shown once again to be nothing more than a fabrication. The ancient boundaries of Greece do not coincide with the modern Greek borders. These ancient frontiers of Greece are the basis which the present Greek state is using for the claims on Macedonia. This is certainly another piece of evidence that reaffirms the inadmissibility of the Greeks´ claims that "Macedonia was always Greek". Time and again, this blatant lie is being exposed for what it really represents—a flagrant and shamelessly executed subversion of historical truth—heist of unparallel historical proportions never before seen in the history of mankind. What is so arrogantly flaunted as Greek heritage is nothing but a stolen property from the Macedonians. Between these rampant Greek lies and deceptions and the silence of the European academicians, who, certainly, know the truth, runs the menacing current of the biased and the hypocritical attitude of Europe itself. Human rights issues in Greece are of paramount importance and Europe remains silent. By not addressing these obvious violations of its own constitution, Europe undermines its own reputation. By not attending to these flames of hatred and racism exhibited by the Greek government, Europe diminishes its own stature and weakens its own institutions. Europe must find courage to tell Greece, simply to "grow up", as said by former US Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger in the interview for the Macedonian Television. And in the words of the former German ambassador to the Republic of Macedonia, Hans Lothar Schteppan, Europe must recognize that "Greece’s strong objection to the name was laid on a foundation of lies". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Letsbeheard ( talk • contribs) 12:34, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Macedonia was not only Hellenic from the early Greek history until nowadays, but it also was greek-speaking area all the time. See
Pella curse tablet for instance. From early 6th century BC, 5th century BC, 4th century BC, 3th century BC, 2th century BC, 1th century BC, 1th century AD, 2th century AD, 3th century AD, 4th century AD, 5th century AD, 6th century AD, 7th century AD, 8th century AD, 9th century AD, 10th century AD, 11th century AD, 12th century AD, 13th century AD, 14th century AD, 15th century AD, 16th century AD, 17th century AD and 18th century AD, the only people who called themselves Macedonians, and they signed as Macedonians were only Greeks and nothing else. How can you explain this?
And also our fathers, our grand fathers, our grand grand ..... grand fathers were always called Macedonians. Say what ever you want, for Greece, but we, the indigenous Macedonians, will give the answer again, as we always did, against our northern neighbores. You want the name "Macedonia" for your selves? Then have it. We can borrow you our name. I am sure you like it. Because we are generous. How many years you thik you can keep it? 50 years? 100 years? 200 years? Then, another nation will come from the north and you will disappear. But we, the indigenous Macedonians, will still be here, as we are here for thousands of years.
User:Pyraechmes We were here before you came and we will be here after you leave
23:20, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
If 1000 years from now an English text is found in Turkey will the Historians automaticly say, Yeah this was English empire in the past??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.180.181.152 ( talk) 06:41, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Well, it appears to be a Greek dialect that we've not found again- and, on top of that, FYROM's geographic position doesn't coincide with Ancient Macedonia- they've got nothing to do with the Ancient Macedonians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.69.58 ( talk) 21:10, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Hallow. There are any questions with incorrect name of a similar article in Russian Wikipedia. If these people are called Macedonians (individual name of the nation), they are not Greeks. And if they are Greeks, it should be called "The Greeks of Macedonia" or "Macedonian Greeks". It is written that they are a regional group, as: "Yorkshiremen (Englishmen)"??? Maksimilian karlovich ( talk) 15:03, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
"If these people are called Macedonians (individual name of the nation), they are not Greeks" how is this not textbook POV? These 3.5 million people (more than the "ethnic" Macedonians) identify as equally both and reject the distinction between the two identities. They have a right to their culture just like your people so live and let live. Macedonian contributors seem to think that if they vandalize enough Greek articles the world will just hand them all of the geographical Macedonia on a platter and make all the other ethnicities on the area go away but life doesn’t work that way. CapJoe2 ( talk) 16:55, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Since nobody seems interested in discussing challenged initial reverts on the talkpage (when asked to do so) on this page that seems to have a substantial history of vandalism, I'm going to let both the Mackridge and the Shea quote stand, while re adding the "page needed" tag for the Mackridge one (originally added by User:Judist). We will see if any more information about that is forthcoming. Gerard von Hebel ( talk) 22:35, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
The author of the source itself used the term Aegean Macedonia, not me. Since you politely asked me I am providing you the statistics [2] [3], the total number of refugees in Macedonia is 776,000 as described here [4] including refugees from countries other than Turkey, this is more than half of both the total population of the region and the total number of refugees. SR, I don't seem to disagree with you for anything, unless you insist unverified sources without pages given to remain in the article. I am not arguing that Maceodnian Greeks are no desendands of the Ancient, but no verification is provided. If the sources are not verified then they should simply be removed, this is my simple view. I don't insist the refugee information to be in the intro if the unverified source, alleged for claiming that Greek Macedonians descend from the Ancient is removed. Whether you are going to move the information for refugees to other sections or articles it doesn't matter, it is already stated there. I don’t wish to argue more on the topic as the discussion escalates longer than needed. Only the part that fails verification should be deleted. Thank you for your time. Judist ( talk) 02:00, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
It seems rather obvious to me that (Not taking into account the somewhat recent post Lausanne deportations and resettlements, which should be mentioned in the article, I agree with User:Judist there!) most people that resided in Greek Macedonia before 1923, are somehow descended from the Macedons of ancient times. But that goes for the Greeks, Slavs, Turks and Aromunians and what have you, alike. That is simply a function of a sensible understanding of the statistics and knowledge about how ethnic changes in a limited piece of territory generally go about. I live in a territory which is now Saxon speaking, but was Frisian speaking some hundreds of years ago. Mostly Protestant now but Catholic before and it's pretty obvious that I descend from Frisians, Saxons, Protestants and Catholics alike. Who do you suppose the people of Turkey (Anatolia) mostly descend from? Exactly! The people who have always lived there and who's ancestors have identified with a multitude of ethnicities from Hittite to Phrygian to Greek to Turk! With more or less substantial influx from outside at times of course, but still.... Pages should be named of course when it comes to sources, but I feel a different approach to this matter is sorely needed. Gerard von Hebel ( talk) 18:35, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
I firmly disagree with this logic, dear Gerard von Hebel. These are fringe theories. If immigration has to be considered as a factor determining the ancestral/heritage rights for a group, then, I am afraid, dear Gerard von Hebel, the world's communities will have to be re-organized and re-thinked for their origins, because, in your respective, only a very small percentage of the world's total population are true descendants (in the genetics sense) of locals who lived before them in the same areas (remember, there is also the internal migration, which along with the urbanization and decentralization, has affected roughly the 90% of the world's total population). And even so, does this permits the remaining 10% of the world's population, to question the history and homes of the 90% which is the majority? Absolutely not. And in spite of the fact that the humanity has been through two World Wars, medieval climate changes, and internal migrations, all of which have caused a drastic change in world population. So, respect your heritage even if it is uncertain that you are a Frisian or a Saxon by genetics, because your heritage is not based solely on genetics, but on your political association, your birthplace, your homeland, your culture, your ethnicity, your society and your language. Ah, and do not forget that the same right is recognized for all the Greeks currently living in the region of Macedonia, as it is for Saxons in Saxonia, the Ethnic Macedonians in Macedonia, and the Italians in Italy. But at least, consider yourself lucky in that your country where you do live (I assume it is Netherlands?) does not share land borders with other countries stylizing themselves as Republic of Saxonia or Republic of Frisia, because at least that saves you from the trouble of being semiologically confused with a namesake country you are not associated with, as is the unfortunate case of the Greek Macedonians and the Republic of Macedonia. Have a good day. -- SILENTRESIDENT ( talk) 20:22, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
and the ethnic cleansing policies of the Bulgarian authorities. - Is there a source for this? Bulgaria officially annexed the occupied territories, which had long been a target of Bulgarian irredentism, on 14 May 1941.[37] - Bulgaria, at that time, couldn't annex anything without the supervision of the Reich. Jotaro97 ( talk) 16:23, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
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Acts 20:1-2 King James Version (KJV) 20 And after the uproar was ceased, Paul called unto him the disciples, and embraced them, and departed for to go into Macedonia.
2 And when he had gone over those parts, and had given them much exhortation, he came into Greece,
ΠΡΑΞΕΙΣ ΤΩΝ ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΩΝ - 20 1 Μετὰ δὲ τὸ παύσασθαι τὸν θόρυβον προσκαλεσάμενος ὁ Παῦλος τοὺς μαθητὰς καὶ ἀσπασάμενος ἐξῆλθε πορευθῆναι εἰς Μακεδονίαν. 2 διελθὼν δὲ τὰ μέρη ἐκεῖνα καὶ παρακαλέσας αὐτοὺς λόγῳ πολλῷ ἦλθεν εἰς τὴν ῾Ελλάδα·
Acts 27:2
King James Version (KJV)
2 And entering into a ship of Adramyttium, we launched, meaning to sail by the coasts of Asia; one Aristarchus, a Macedonian of Thessalonica, being with us.
ΠΡΑΞΕΙΣ ΤΩΝ ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΩΝ - 27 2 ἐπιβάντες δὲ πλοίῳ Ἀδραμυττηνῷ μέλλοντες πλεῖν τοὺς κατὰ τὴν Ἀσίαν τόπους ἀνήχθημεν, ὄντος σὺν ἡμῖν Ἀριστάρχου Μακεδόνος Θεσσαλονικέως, — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geliefde Liefde ( talk • contribs) 23:01, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
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I see that reverts and negationism such as https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Macedonians_(Greeks)&diff=910302497&oldid=910302391 are a big problem on this page. There are thousands of sources that state Slavic is still spoken among Greek Macedonians such as [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] and countless more
Calling all sources stated here "original research or novel syntheses" such as User:Dr.K. has is blatant POV and denialism at its finest. Would you also consider all the evidence and sources provided in Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia as being unreliable because they don't align with your POV?
Also a collection of references that accentuate why the statement "Notably, they have a heritage and identity distinct from that of the Slavic Macedonians" is utter POV, and why we need reliable citations to back up the statement: [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19]
By the way, I brought up genetics since the lead of the article states a distinct heritage which mean an distinct genetics and ancestry to ethnic Macedonians." Nope. The heritage of the people is historical, cultural and linguistic. Genetics isn't the focus here, and we shouldn't go by labeling people based on genetics. This is racist. if the people consider themselves to be their own distinct group, then as Wikipedia, we can do nothing about it but simply respect the reality. Self-determination of people is one of Wikipedia community's principal ethics. Now if you have sources claiming this or that, I am not going to rebuke them, but I strongly object using them in such a disruptive way that causes friction among Wikipedia editors of different views, like how you already are doing right now. Many editors who visit these pages, as well as readers, take pride in their heritange, be it historical, linguistic, or cultural. None, including you and your sources on genetics, are to dictate how the others are called or defined. Understand? I highly recommend you drop this disruptive approach to any articles related to the region of Macedonia and its people, because it is well-known for being multicultural and the homeland of many different groups that bear different political views, ethnic origins and linguistic/cultural heritages.
If you can make it more explicit that a large contingent of Greek Macedonians descend from refugees that arrived from outside of Macedonia during the 1923 population exchange, then yes you can say that those three criteria are satisfied." I am saddened to hear this overused argument which, in case you haven't realized, is the primary argument heard only by far-right nationalist Macedonians whose goal is no one other than to downplay and diminish the Macedonian idendity of the refugees who have come from other parts of the world and settled here, or, as worse, promote theirs at the expense of the idendity of others. I don't know what you have in your mind, but the refugees of 1900s can be as Macedonian as the Slav migrants of the 1000s. It doesn't matter where one's grandparents come from, the people residing in the region of Macedonia today, including the Greek portions of it, are real Macedonians, like it or not. Idendity isn't about blood or genetics. Idendity is about a person's consciousness, lifestyle, culture, language, political affiliations and choices. Simple as that. This is already reflected with a single keyword within the article's lead. A keyword which usually does not escapes most editor's attention. Let me copy-paste the sentence with the keyword contained: "The Macedonians (Greek: Μακεδόνες, Makedónes) or Greek Macedonians are a regional and historical population group of ethnic Greeks, inhabiting or originating mainly from the Greek region of Macedonia" I hope I have been clear on this. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 22:41, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Sure I'll be happy to fetch more references and sources, but I need you to show me why that will be worth my time by clarifying why reference [20] for example is against Wikipedia's guidelines when it's a government source and has nothing to do with original research or synthesis as it explicitly states what I'm trying to get to here - to avoid going through all this again once I get more sources." Please familiarize yourself with WP:RELEVANT which is one of Wikipedia's most important assays and the reason your edits in this article are being reverted. The source from State.Gov you are trying to add here, is WP:RELEVANT to the other article, not here. If you are not capable of complying with Wikipedia's guidelines and rules and failure in seeing your errors in spite three editors trying, for whole days, to explain your errors, and your insistence in your faulty positions despite this increasingly lengthy discussion then, I can't help but wonder about your competence as an editor. Usually most editors are able to understand Wikipedia's rules and which articles are wp:relevant to the information they want to add. No matter how many more sources you find, they won't be added here since this is the wrong article for it. The State.Gov source talks about Slavophone Greeks, not Grecophone Greeks. Unless you can find sources backing your claim that the Greeks of Greek linguistic origin and Greek cultural background are same people as Greeks of Slavic linguistic origin and Slavic cultural background, then not only you will fail to gain any WP:CONSENSUS for adding this source here, but also your future attempts to add it will be reverted. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 13:27, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
I am indeed competent enough to edit, for your information. So we go from WP:OR and WP:SYNTH to WP:RELEVANT? I was looking for information on how my source failed criteria specified by WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. For WP:RELEVANT to hold, you are treating Macedonians (Greeks) and Slavophone Greeks as two totally disjoint groups, which is not true, and if it is in the context of the article, it does a poor job differentiating the two groups. I'm also sure that with respect to self declaration most Slavophone Greeks will not be happy to be classified outside Greek Macedonians. I see where you are getting at with WP:RELEVANT, but we need the article to do a better job of differentiating the two groups. If this is achieved I can rest my case with the language and the heritage term. Beat of the tapan ( talk) 11:11, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
go from WP:OR and WP:SYNTH to WP:RELEVANT" as it is your efforts to make sources WP:RELEVANT to this article through WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. This is a serious violation of Wikipedia's rules and it cannot be tolerated. WP:OR and WP:SYNTH aren't and cannot be tolerated in any way and form, as this damages the project's accountability towards the readers.
treating Macedonians (Greeks) and Slavophone Greeks as two totally disjoint groups". I wasn't the one who created the two separate articles about the two groups, nor I was involved in this article's creation and expansion, nor I participated in any consensus-building, not had I added any sources to it myself. I am merely defending the article against your needless disruption. Simple as that.
most Slavophone Greeks will not be happy to be classified outside Greek Macedoniansis not the scope of this or that other article. (Whatever the people consider themselves, is fully respected and none is in position to tell them who they are and how to feel.) We are in Wikipedia, and, for encyclopedic purposes, Wikipedia's role is to provide verifiable and accurate information on the various groups which reside in the region of Macedonia, using reliable sources. There is a reason each group has its own article, regardless of how one group relates with others. Because the outstanding majority of the sources has these people groupped separately, primarily for linguistic purposes. If you are not satisfied with that, then go send your complaints to the world's scholars and linguists, not to me. Personally, I am against the concept of ethnicities, borders, separation and groupping of peoples in the globe based on races, languages, religions, ethnicities and sexual orientations, as I consider all people to be just humans and this is what really matters, at the end. But, whatever I may believe, is none of Wikipedia's concern or business, as the project does not take in consideration and account the beliefs/opinions of editors (in short, editorial POV), only what reliable sources do say. Now, if you can't gasp the obvious things about how Wikipedia works and content is created/tagged, then it is not my problem, is yours. Dont expect me to continue this unproductive discussion, and do not expect further replies by me on this. I spent more time here than I normally could.
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Guys I have a question here. Prespes Agreement changed the view on both Greek and Slavic views on Macedonia. So reading article 7.2 it gives a linear historical version of Greek Macedonia whist a national view on the Slavic Macedonia. So as per the Prespes we rebranded the Macedonians (ethnic group) from Macedonian Slavs to Macedonian people. Should we remain consistent and replace Greek Macedonians with Modern Macedonians? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Melathron ( talk • contribs) 08:45, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
I agree. Then why Wikipedia accepted the change in the Macedonians(Ethnic Group) from Macedonian Slavs to Macedonian people when the Prespes Agreement put in place ? If we revert to Macedonians slavs and retain the old set it makes sense otherwise we have to include the Prespes approach for both parties, hence modern Macedonians vs Macedonian people as per Prespes — Preceding unsigned comment added by Melathron ( talk • contribs) 09:08, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Then why Wikipedia accepted the change in the Macedonians(Ethnic Group) from Macedonian Slavs to Macedonian people when the Prespes Agreement put in place ?@ Melathron: Sorry but you got it all wrong so let me correct you: Wikipedia called them simply Macedonians already a long while before Prespa Agreement came to existence, so better get your facts straight. Just because Prespa Agreement came, doesn't mean Wikipedia will have to adopt more confusing terms for these groups of people, or worse, change the descriptive terms the people used to call them by. Wikipedia isn't bound by internatonal treaties in any way. Plus, there is a reason Wikipedia has chosen these descriptive terms for the modern Macedonian groups: The modern slavic group is idendifying on ethnic grounds, so they are called Ethnic Macedonians, the other modern group is Greek based, so they are called Greek Macedonians. These terms are descriptive and in no way do imply that the Ethnic Macedonians and Greek Macedonians aren't modern-day groups; they are modern, just of different cultural and political associations. By using simply "modern" for descripting both groups, you are generating more problems than solving, both for the editors as well as for the readers. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 10:52, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
It was decided this page would be called Macedonians (Greeks) rather than Greek Macedonians. However, the words "Greek Macedonians" are used many times in the article. Should all instances of "Greek Macedonians" be changed to "Macedonians"? This wikipedia already makes it clear it's talking about the Greek ethnic group rather than the Slavic one. Apples&Manzanas ( talk) 23:02, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
There is a question are all Greek Macedonians today native to that area? Please, keep in mind that 1,000 000 Greek refugees natives of Asia Minor, Thrace and the Black Sea areas fled during the Greek genocide (1914-1923) and Greece's later defeat in the Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922) moved to today Greek borders. The core of the refugee population settled in today Greek Macedonia, i.e. 638,253 or 52% (with 270,000 in Thessaloniki alone). Moreover, in the last ca. hundred years since the region has been part of Greece, it has been normal to have internal migration. This means that large masses of Greeks from other regions have settled in Macedonia. So to claim that the Greeks of today are all of local origin is not serious. Jingiby ( talk) 10:55, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
The term 'Macedonian' has been used as a demonym since ancient times to refer to the inhabitants of the region. This article is specifically about the Greeks that have been inhabiting Macedonia and who have had a historical presence here of thousands of years, from the ancient kingdom of Macedonia to the Roman and Byzantine periods up until today. They've had a presence all around the Macedonian region, not just the modern day greek part of it. You can certainly focus only on the inhabiting aspect and say that the term is for those who only live in the Greek Macedonia region (which is entirely correct) but if you want to talk about origins then it's necessary to point out that Greeks have been present everywhere in the wider region of Macedonia.
The Wiki page about Slavic Macedonians mentions that they are an ethnic group native to the entire Macedonian region which is untrue since they're Slavs originating from Northern Europe. How is that acceptable but my objection isn't?
No, it's not. It's literally mentioned in the first paragraph of the History section that it is about the Greeks and not all residents. The previous edit makes it sound as if Greek Macedonians have existed historically only in the modern Greek region of Macedonia which is entirely untrue. That's why I made the distinction between origin and residence. Originally they've been around the entire region ever since ancient times. If you want to make the term generic for all the residents then you should specify it in the intro alongside what I said about the origin.
The edit war accusation on my talk page is quite tragically ironic. You ask me not to insist on editing something EVEN if I believe I'm right but a false statement on a page should remain the same and not be changed even if wrong. Makes sense.
@Apples&Manzanas Thanks for your support mate. I noticed we were in agreement judging by the editing history. But Jingiby agreed with a neutrality dispute and that's enough for me for a start. -- Ronbb345
I don't understand what you mean. The area is indeed already inhabited by Macedonian Greeks. -- Ronbb345
Spot on, Apples&Manzanas. I've noticed this type of bias in numerous such articles about origins/ethnicity. Thanks -- Ronbb345
I've been blocked because I've argued by pointing out the obvious based on historical facts. My apologies. Next time, I'll resort to accepting nationalist propaganda per Jingiby's request. -- Ronbb345 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronbb345 ( talk • contribs) 09:47, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
What reliable source should I provide for the introduction?! It's literally written in the first paragraph of the History section that Greeks have existed in Macedonia since ancient times and I'm simply pointing this out in the introduction, as well. You consider the continuity between Ancient Macedonians and modern ones a myth but you're absolutely okay with Slavic Macedonians being considered native to the entire region despite them neither having a historical presence in it nor the term being used for anyone outside the country of North Macedonia. -- Ronbb345 Ronbb345 ( talk) 13:38, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
"As far as Greek Macedonia is concerned, the exchange of populations between Bulgaria and Greece (‘voluntary’, 1919 onwards) and between Turkey and Greece (compulsory, 1923 onwards), provided for by the Treaties of Neuilly and Lausanne respectively, dramatically altered the ethnographic picture of that area. More than 600,000 Greek refugees were settled in Macedonia, mainly in its eastern part, while over 50,000 Slavs left Greece. Before 1923, the Greeks were a minority in their own northern province, but after the coming of the refugees the Hellenization of Greek Macedonia became reality. According to the Greek census of 1928, there were about 80,000 Slav-speakers in northern Greece, which is undoubtedly a gross underestimate, for Greek archival sources give a much higher number: about 200,000. According to the same sources, however, the majority were just peasants, while the ‘Bulgarians’, that is those who displayed a Bulgarian national consciousness, were about 80,000. Despite the Slav exodus from Greek Macedonia, a by-product of population exchanges, fear, and oppression on the part of the Greek state, solid Slav enclaves remained in the Greek province, and particularly in the districts of Florina, and Kastoria, in Greek west Macedonia."@Jingiby what do you reckon. Should there be incorporation some of Livanios into the article for clarification? Resnjari ( talk) 15:29, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
More than 100,000 refugees came to Thessaloniki, increasing its population by half. After the Balkan Wars, Greeks were a minority in the territories of 'New Greece', they became a majority after the population exchange and Greece became "...one of the most ethnically homogenous countries in the Balkans". I don't know about the exact statement that Greeks were a minority in the new territories overall, but you get the point. We don't need to literally discuss all of this. The page does already mention that in 1928, 45% of the pop'l was refugees. What it's missing is minor points about the former size of certain minority communities so as not to sweep them under the rug, and some minor cosmetic issues ("Heroic" is not NPOV, Bulgarians/Macedonians/Turks read this page too fyi, etc.).-- Calthinus ( talk) 19:18, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
This article is specifically about the ethnic Greeks that have been living in Macedonia, not the people of various backgrounds that inhabit it. Ethnic Greeks have been living all around the entire Macedonian region, starting from the ancient times with the Ancient Macedonians and spreading all around the area throughout history as its borders were being expanded and/or reduced depending on the period. And I simply want to point this historical fact in the introductory paragraph. Because saying that Greeks only originate from the Greek region of Macedonia is like saying that Greeks appeared in Macedonia in the 20th century after Greece became a fully unified modern nation which is tremendously incorrect and historically false.
You are absolutely okay with the page of Slavic Macedonians, a term invented for the inhabitants of the recent state of North Macedonia, mention that they originate from the wider region of Macedonia even though they are Slavs who originally came from Northern Europe just like the rest of their tribe but you oppose to me pointing out that one of the earliest actual inhabitants of this region ever since the ancient times have always existed all around it.
Look, I've come to the realisation that this website is unbelievably biased and this incident right here is only just a tiny example of the awful misinformation taking place so I don't know if I'm interested in discussing it any further. You are obviously accepting nationalist, unfounded propaganda from North Macedonia and no further edits are going to take place. I contained myself and refrained from even pointing out the obvious. That these people shouldn't even be called Macedonians. They are Slavs with absolutely no relation to Macedonia. I avoided engaging in that disagreement. You, on the other hand, are blatantly biased. A pity.
-- Ronbb345 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronbb345 ( talk • contribs) 19:49, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
Interesting that today Khirurg states that I need consensus for removal on this article, but yesterday he/she thought I needed consensus to keep longstanding content on the ethnic Macedonians page. Anyway, the reason for removal is following some of @ TU-nor:'s recent edits that official symbols of political entities should not be included in the infobox of ethnic group articles (such as in Albanians, Bulgarians, and Slovenes). I tend to agree with this that it's not best for the infobox. However, there are plenty of examples of flags being used in ethnic group articles such as in Italians and Russians. One user, @ SilentResident:, if I understand correctly, supports removing all symbols from all ethnic group articles. I'm not sure anyone else supports that, I certainly don't find any sense in that and think descriptions of symbols that ethnic groups identify with of course belong on these articles. With regard to this specific article, the flag of the Greek region of Macedonia is included twice. -- Local hero talk 02:19, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
support the presence of symbols on articles. I do neither support nor oppose them on principle. I oppose them if I find them undue, I support their mention if it is notable. I have stated just above here that "national or regional flags do usually not have any place in the infobox of ethnic groups", which is why I have lately removed national flags from the infoboxes of Macedonians (ethnic group), Albanians, Moldavians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Czechs and today Greeks. I can think of cases where such flags may be appropriate, but they are very few.