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Wikipedia is the only reference where I have seen this birthdate (October 8, 1873) for Ma Barker, and I am wondering what the source for this date might be. I have seen other sources that give her year of birth as 1871, 1872, 1873, and 1877. There's a photo of her gravesite in Oklahoma at www.findagrave.com, which gives her age at the time of death, but it is exasperatingly difficult for me to read. I am trying to contact the photographer to confirm the exact date. Jim Deutsch 19:54, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Well the U.S. federal census of 1880 lists Arizona Clark as being age 6 (thus born in 1873 or 1874), born in Missouri and living with mother Emeline and siblings in the household of stepfather Reuben Reynolds in Ash Grove, Missouri. Mapjc 03:14, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
A record of the marriage can be found at Ancestry.com (with a subscription.) Go to records for Missouri and check marriage records. You can see a copy of the original record - both the issuance of the license and the marriage return - both dated 14 Sep. 1892. Johndavidh ( talk) 20:57, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
For genealogical records of Arizona (Clark) Barker go to http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=batqp4538&id=I2 Johndavidh ( talk) 21:12, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
I question whether the following paragraph is appropriate. -- Bejnar 00:06, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Yea! I am the second cousin to the Barker Boys. My father moved in with George when Ma and the boys moved out. They were living in Carterville Missouri at the time. She moved with the boys to Tulsa while George and my father Charlie Barker stayed on the goat dairy. I was born at Neosho Mo. and most of the relatives are there today. Ma and the boys are buried at Welch Oklahoma. I have all of the records of Doc's incarceration papers while locked up in Oklahoma. All corrispondence between law officers, postal inspectors and magazine reporters.The notification to Oklahoma prison from Alkatrez warden of his death, as he was to be returned to Okla. after he completed his life sentence there.My father whom is now deceased had many great tales about his uncle George, Ma, and his cousins as the grew up together as children. As you would expect all that you hear is not true and my father too may have changed a little bit of the truth just to polish it up a smidge to make it a little more hair raising. George may have had a little more to do with all this than one may expect. It was ok to be thought of as a drunk if it kept him from being suspect. He was never once thought of as having anything to do with the crimes yet the boy's and Ma loved him dearly.After all he is the one that took care of their bodies.Maybe was the real master mind behind the crime !!!!!!! Well that would sure put a big twist on all the other thoughts and facts. You know he kept a brand new model t. in the barn covered up with a tarp. ( not bad for a drunk in the depression days ) Huh ? Have fun with the stories . Roy Barker —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.245.32.113 ( talk) 04:38, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I wonder if there is any truth to the previous statement. lol. maybe... maybe not... Oh well. Sometimes the no OR rule is annoying... but at least it protects us from false claims being true. Saksjn ( talk) 18:29, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Saksjn : Prove it ISN'T true. Maybe you'd like someone questioning you, you age, or something else personal?... 68.231.189.108 ( talk) 16:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Ma Barker first appears in the 1880 Census of Greene Co., MO, as Arizona Clark. The 1910-1930 censuses all list her as "Arrie." (I cannot find her in 1900.) She was married in 1892 in Lawrence Co., MO, as "Arrie Clark." The Tulsa City Directory for the years 1914, 1916, and 1917 list her as "Orrie, Orie and Orie." The 1919, 1923, 1925, 1926, 1927 and 1928 Tulsa City Directory lists all list her as "Arrie." Her Florida death certificate first lists her as "Kate," but the information was not provided by any family member. Presumably it was provided by the FBI. In a Supplementary Florida Death Certificate information is finally provided by George Barker of Joplin, MO. He gives her name as "Arizona" - there is no mention of "Kate."
In Miriam Allen de Ford's 1970 biography entitled "The Real Ma Barker," she writes on page 16 that "Incidentally, by that time [the time of her marriage] she was no longer Arizona or Arrie, but was known as Kate. (It may have been her middle name, though one commentator gives her the odd middle name, for a girl, of Donnie.)" Based upon the record of her marriage it appears to me that she is still very much using the name "Arrie." I don't know of any record in which she refers to herself as "Kate" or as "Donnie." And one commentator referring to her as "Donnie" hardly seems sufficient evidence to believe that she was actually named "Donnie." Any more definitive information on her name would have to come from family members.
Based upon the above, I believe that she is best described as Arizona "Arrie" (Clark) Barker, aka Ma Barker, aka Kate Barker.
Johndavidh ( talk) 21:27, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
There's only 1 son with a Wikipedia page. Should there be pages for the others? What were their dates of birth and deaths? Does anyone know? I was trying to find Fred Barker's birth date and so far, have only found 1902 or 1903. Jtyroler ( talk) 14:30, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
...there is no evidence that "Ma" was their leader [citation needed]...
Sorry - do you need the evidence to prove that we have no evidence to prove something? 8O — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.160.202.180 ( talk) 10:49, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
Hello. I reverted the article to the 2017 March 19th revision for now, because some referenced material was removed. I am in no current position to evaluate those changes and sources without some research, but found the content removal slightly suspect. Hopefully someone more familiar to the subject can eventually deal with this, and discussion about it should ideally happen here. The issue seems to have to do about if Ma Barker was the mother of some murderers, or if she herself was also involved. Thanks, PaleoNeonate ( talk) 06:02, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
Establishing Ma Barker's birthdate. Ma Barker's Supplemental FL Death Cert. Filed 8 Feb. 1935 for Arizona Barker included additional info. from her husband George Barker. He gave her birthdate as 8 Oct. 1877. The 8 Oct. is probably correct since George Barker should have known it. The year is incorrect as is proven by the 1880 and 1910 censuses. The 1880 Census of Boone Twp., Greene Co., MO, lists Arizona Clark, age 6 as living with her step-father and mother, Reuben and Emaline Reynolds. Arizona was born between 1 Jun. 1873 and 1 Jun 1874. Early census records for a person are generally more accurate than later census records. The 1910 Census of Finley Twp., Christian Co., MO, lists George E. and Arrie Barker with four children. Arrie is 36. The census was taken 30 Apr. 1910, so Arrie should have been born between 30 Apr. 1873 and 30 Apr. 1874. The three records mentioned above do not rule out a birthdate of 8 Oct. 1873. We know from the Lawrence Co., MO, marriage record of George E. Barker and Arrie Clark, 14 Sep. 1892, that Arrie was over 18. This tells us that Arrie was born before 14 Sep. 1874, but it doesn't rule out the possibility that she was born in 1873 or before. The 1920 Census of Lincoln Twp., Stone Co., MO, where George E. and Arrie Barker appear together, calculates to a birth for Arrie between 9 Jan. 1874 and 9 Jan 1875. It is off by one year. The 1930 Census of West Tulsa, Tulsa Co., OK, shows Arrie with her 2nd husband, Arthur W. Dunlop. Arrie is 53 which puts her birth between 7 Apr 1876 and 7 Apr. 1877. This is clearly off by 3 or 4 years and may well be a drop in age due to vanity. The 1880 and 1910 Census do not exclude a birthdate of 8 Oct. 1873. The 1920 Census record is off by a year and the 1930 Census record clearly in error. Based on the above I find the 8 Oct 1873 birthdate is probable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johndavidh ( talk • contribs) 03:05, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
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A graph should have been displayed here but
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Wikipedia is the only reference where I have seen this birthdate (October 8, 1873) for Ma Barker, and I am wondering what the source for this date might be. I have seen other sources that give her year of birth as 1871, 1872, 1873, and 1877. There's a photo of her gravesite in Oklahoma at www.findagrave.com, which gives her age at the time of death, but it is exasperatingly difficult for me to read. I am trying to contact the photographer to confirm the exact date. Jim Deutsch 19:54, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Well the U.S. federal census of 1880 lists Arizona Clark as being age 6 (thus born in 1873 or 1874), born in Missouri and living with mother Emeline and siblings in the household of stepfather Reuben Reynolds in Ash Grove, Missouri. Mapjc 03:14, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
A record of the marriage can be found at Ancestry.com (with a subscription.) Go to records for Missouri and check marriage records. You can see a copy of the original record - both the issuance of the license and the marriage return - both dated 14 Sep. 1892. Johndavidh ( talk) 20:57, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
For genealogical records of Arizona (Clark) Barker go to http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=batqp4538&id=I2 Johndavidh ( talk) 21:12, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
I question whether the following paragraph is appropriate. -- Bejnar 00:06, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Yea! I am the second cousin to the Barker Boys. My father moved in with George when Ma and the boys moved out. They were living in Carterville Missouri at the time. She moved with the boys to Tulsa while George and my father Charlie Barker stayed on the goat dairy. I was born at Neosho Mo. and most of the relatives are there today. Ma and the boys are buried at Welch Oklahoma. I have all of the records of Doc's incarceration papers while locked up in Oklahoma. All corrispondence between law officers, postal inspectors and magazine reporters.The notification to Oklahoma prison from Alkatrez warden of his death, as he was to be returned to Okla. after he completed his life sentence there.My father whom is now deceased had many great tales about his uncle George, Ma, and his cousins as the grew up together as children. As you would expect all that you hear is not true and my father too may have changed a little bit of the truth just to polish it up a smidge to make it a little more hair raising. George may have had a little more to do with all this than one may expect. It was ok to be thought of as a drunk if it kept him from being suspect. He was never once thought of as having anything to do with the crimes yet the boy's and Ma loved him dearly.After all he is the one that took care of their bodies.Maybe was the real master mind behind the crime !!!!!!! Well that would sure put a big twist on all the other thoughts and facts. You know he kept a brand new model t. in the barn covered up with a tarp. ( not bad for a drunk in the depression days ) Huh ? Have fun with the stories . Roy Barker —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.245.32.113 ( talk) 04:38, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I wonder if there is any truth to the previous statement. lol. maybe... maybe not... Oh well. Sometimes the no OR rule is annoying... but at least it protects us from false claims being true. Saksjn ( talk) 18:29, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Saksjn : Prove it ISN'T true. Maybe you'd like someone questioning you, you age, or something else personal?... 68.231.189.108 ( talk) 16:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Ma Barker first appears in the 1880 Census of Greene Co., MO, as Arizona Clark. The 1910-1930 censuses all list her as "Arrie." (I cannot find her in 1900.) She was married in 1892 in Lawrence Co., MO, as "Arrie Clark." The Tulsa City Directory for the years 1914, 1916, and 1917 list her as "Orrie, Orie and Orie." The 1919, 1923, 1925, 1926, 1927 and 1928 Tulsa City Directory lists all list her as "Arrie." Her Florida death certificate first lists her as "Kate," but the information was not provided by any family member. Presumably it was provided by the FBI. In a Supplementary Florida Death Certificate information is finally provided by George Barker of Joplin, MO. He gives her name as "Arizona" - there is no mention of "Kate."
In Miriam Allen de Ford's 1970 biography entitled "The Real Ma Barker," she writes on page 16 that "Incidentally, by that time [the time of her marriage] she was no longer Arizona or Arrie, but was known as Kate. (It may have been her middle name, though one commentator gives her the odd middle name, for a girl, of Donnie.)" Based upon the record of her marriage it appears to me that she is still very much using the name "Arrie." I don't know of any record in which she refers to herself as "Kate" or as "Donnie." And one commentator referring to her as "Donnie" hardly seems sufficient evidence to believe that she was actually named "Donnie." Any more definitive information on her name would have to come from family members.
Based upon the above, I believe that she is best described as Arizona "Arrie" (Clark) Barker, aka Ma Barker, aka Kate Barker.
Johndavidh ( talk) 21:27, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
There's only 1 son with a Wikipedia page. Should there be pages for the others? What were their dates of birth and deaths? Does anyone know? I was trying to find Fred Barker's birth date and so far, have only found 1902 or 1903. Jtyroler ( talk) 14:30, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
...there is no evidence that "Ma" was their leader [citation needed]...
Sorry - do you need the evidence to prove that we have no evidence to prove something? 8O — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.160.202.180 ( talk) 10:49, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
Hello. I reverted the article to the 2017 March 19th revision for now, because some referenced material was removed. I am in no current position to evaluate those changes and sources without some research, but found the content removal slightly suspect. Hopefully someone more familiar to the subject can eventually deal with this, and discussion about it should ideally happen here. The issue seems to have to do about if Ma Barker was the mother of some murderers, or if she herself was also involved. Thanks, PaleoNeonate ( talk) 06:02, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
Establishing Ma Barker's birthdate. Ma Barker's Supplemental FL Death Cert. Filed 8 Feb. 1935 for Arizona Barker included additional info. from her husband George Barker. He gave her birthdate as 8 Oct. 1877. The 8 Oct. is probably correct since George Barker should have known it. The year is incorrect as is proven by the 1880 and 1910 censuses. The 1880 Census of Boone Twp., Greene Co., MO, lists Arizona Clark, age 6 as living with her step-father and mother, Reuben and Emaline Reynolds. Arizona was born between 1 Jun. 1873 and 1 Jun 1874. Early census records for a person are generally more accurate than later census records. The 1910 Census of Finley Twp., Christian Co., MO, lists George E. and Arrie Barker with four children. Arrie is 36. The census was taken 30 Apr. 1910, so Arrie should have been born between 30 Apr. 1873 and 30 Apr. 1874. The three records mentioned above do not rule out a birthdate of 8 Oct. 1873. We know from the Lawrence Co., MO, marriage record of George E. Barker and Arrie Clark, 14 Sep. 1892, that Arrie was over 18. This tells us that Arrie was born before 14 Sep. 1874, but it doesn't rule out the possibility that she was born in 1873 or before. The 1920 Census of Lincoln Twp., Stone Co., MO, where George E. and Arrie Barker appear together, calculates to a birth for Arrie between 9 Jan. 1874 and 9 Jan 1875. It is off by one year. The 1930 Census of West Tulsa, Tulsa Co., OK, shows Arrie with her 2nd husband, Arthur W. Dunlop. Arrie is 53 which puts her birth between 7 Apr 1876 and 7 Apr. 1877. This is clearly off by 3 or 4 years and may well be a drop in age due to vanity. The 1880 and 1910 Census do not exclude a birthdate of 8 Oct. 1873. The 1920 Census record is off by a year and the 1930 Census record clearly in error. Based on the above I find the 8 Oct 1873 birthdate is probable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johndavidh ( talk • contribs) 03:05, 26 December 2021 (UTC)