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The result of the move request was: Already processed.( non-admin closure) Winged Blades Godric 09:25, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
MV Empire Windrush →
HMT Empire Windrush – During her career, this ship carried two names, MV Monte Rosa and HMT Empire Windrush, the current article name is therefore an incorrect amalgam of the original prefix and the second name. While Empire Windrush is not the ship's original name, is the name by which she is best remembered as it was under this name she made the voyage that makes her notable.
Catsmeat (
talk)
08:28, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
My father came back from Malayer in 1950 on Empire Windrush and he told me that it was on route to be scrapped once it arrived back in England. Did they decided to keep it on as a "Coffin Ship"? - a wonderful icon the end of Empire the start of Multi Cultural (as we understand it) Britain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.85.12.187 ( talk) 14:51, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
It would be nice if this page had a picture of some sort, especially as pictures of the Empire Windrush are not particurlaly hard to come by, and it helps set the tone of a page and describe the ship. Can anyone find a suitable (royalty-free) one? 86.9.151.73 21:25, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Um, some people might consider the use of the word 'cargo' an unfortunate choice, given some of the history of the British and ships full of black people... please don't take this the wrong way, I'm sure it wasn't intentional! pomegranate 10:35, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)
While recognizing the importance of this ship to the history of post-war migration to Great Britain, I don't believe that airbrushing away the rest of its history does anything to improve relations between black and white communities. Instead, it creates resentments in the white community who feel that their history is of lesser value. The Empire Windrush made fourteen round trips from the UK to the Far East and only called once at the West Indies en-route from somewhere else. Yet almost all the ship's history before and after its single visit to the West Indies was omitted from earlier versions of the text, and these were stories that deserved some mention, not least to remember the dead, wounded and missing in action of the Second World War and the Korean War, who had some association with this ship. These were people who fought and died, suffering hardships unimaginable to us, so that we are free today to express our views here and elsewhere. My cousin was typical of many of those. A young man drafted to fight a war halfway around the world in a place that few today can identify on a map or even care about; wounded in action at the 3rd Battle of the Hook, North Korea; nine months recovering in a Japanese Military Hospital before embarking with 1'500 walking-wounded and released POWs on the Empire Windrush for passage home; a hellish ten-week crawl to the Suez Canal followed by being shipwrecked off the Barbary Coast. Like many others my cousin never fully recovered. But his history, and that of his comrades-in-arms is airbrushed away because it doesn't fit neatly with the social engineer's view of what is important. Well its important to them, and it should be important to us if we have any respect for others. But respect for the white community seems to be a rare commodity in Blair's Brave New World, 2006. Brian.Burnell 10:13, 20 July 2006 (UTC) Southampton.
There is and always was good faith. However good faith can be sorely tested when an editor adds patronising and insulting gibes, apparently intended to offend. Editors may choose to write in a style that they consider not rhetorical, and that is their absolute right. But there is no absolute right to insult others for their style. By using the phase 'ignoring the rhetoric' that editor was being dismissive. He was suggesting that my views were of no account; not because of content, but because he did not like the style. Nothing could be more calculated to offend. He should be more tolerant. And he has still not justified his allegations of POV. One has to assume that inwardly, he is perhaps wishing that his allegations had not been made. If that is the case he should move on. No one, least of all myself wants to rub his nose in it. Life is too short, and there are too many other worthwhile things to do.
On the phase in contention 'preyed on'. If a rational case not based on personal taste or prejudice can be made for not using it I would yield. So far there has been no attempt at making a rational case, and without that I will not yield.
I suspect, based on his texts, but perhaps without justification, that there is a personal thing here, with that editor resenting the Empire Windrush page recording the ship's history before and after its important association with West Indian migration. This page is an Empire Windrush page. It is about the ship; and while I have no personal objection to the page being used to record its association with West Indian migration, neither would I approve if it was 'hijacked' for that purpose alone. There is a case for the history of West Indian immigration into Britain being recorded, and recorded in its proper place; on a page created for that purpose. Perhaps other editors would like to create that page. That would be a constructive way forward for them, and I wish them luck in it. In good faith. Brian.Burnell 09:15, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Putting it quite simply Brian
I think there's a bit of overkill on the links on this article - 3 link to the National Archives Treasures page, in various forms, and one other to the National Archives Catalogue Reference page for the Windrush passenger lists. I'd suggest leaving in the link which goes direct to the Windrush section of the Treasures and removing the others - the Treasures links can be navigated to from that page, and the catalogue page tells you very little about the document, and with the reference no (which is on the treasures page) you can look it up again fairly quickly. Spookydel ( talk) 14:24, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Is the section:
"The first ship on the scene was the Titanic, Blue Funnel Line, wartime victory ship, S.S. Mentor which rendered assistance and picked up the first survivors."
Is the refence 'Titanic, Blue Funnel Line', correct or spam?
The Times of 26 April 1944 states that Monte Rosa was sunk on 31 March off Jacren. It is claimed that she was carrying a repair crew for Tirpits and about 500 crew from Scharnhorst and Tirpitz and was on the way to Germany. The latter half is plausible, given her role at the time. Was she sunk, or merely attacked? Can anyone confirm? Mjroots ( talk) 07:00, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
From a quick read, she had two names during her career - HMT Empire Windrush and MV Monte Rosa. But she never carried the name MV Empire Windrush. Would it therefore not be correct to change the article to HMT Empire Windrush? Catsmeat ( talk) 08:06, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: Moved.Granted as a non-controversial request.( non-admin closure) Winged Blades Godric 09:23, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
MV Empire Windrush →
HMT Empire Windrush – During her career, this ship carried two names, MV Monte Rosa and HMT Empire Windrush, the current article name is therefore an incorrect amalgam of the original prefix and the second name. While Empire Windrush is not the ship's original name, it is the name by which she is best remembered as it was under this name she made the voyage that makes her notable.
Catsmeat (
talk)
08:28, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
In 1935 the ship ran a route to the port of Haifa in Palestine.-- ארינמל ( talk) 15:22, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
"Those who had not already arranged accommodation were temporarily housed in the Clapham South deep shelter in south-west London, less than a mile away from the Coldharbour Lane Employment Exchange in Brixton, where some of the arrivals sought work."
Even in a straight line the distance from Clapham South Deep Shelter to 372 Coldharbour Lane (apparently the location of the former Employment Exchange, but it's not far from the nearest end of the road) is about 1.5 miles, it's 2 miles following the shortest route along Acre Lane and (Victorian-era) Abbeville Road https://goo.gl/maps/wo4NYYqLJUWKyYHSA. Since the housing of the Windrush migrants in Clapham South is well-attested https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-44483090 this seems to be simply an error of measurement. Imalone ( talk) 11:22, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
The infobox has a sequence of three flags, but the corresponding text only two owners and operators. My best guess is that we're saying that post-1933, the ship was effectively being used as an arm of Nazi state (the middle flag), but without a formal change of ownership. Could this be made more clear and explicit in some way, if that's indeed the case? 109.255.211.6 ( talk) 17:57, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
Under the heading "West Indian immigrants", there is a sentence reading "The ship was far from full, and so an opportunistic advertisement was placed in a Jamaican newspaper, The Daily Gleaner, offering cheap transport on the ship for anybody who wanted to come and work in the UK". This is false; in fact, this ad is pictured right next to this text, and it says nothing about work, or working in the UK. All it says is "Passenger Opportunity to United Kingdom" and gives the date, prices, address and ship name: nothing about work or jobs at all. This isn't an inconsequential mistake, as it gives the false impression the immigrants were somehow enticed by offers of work in this ad. No new citation or reasoning is needed, because the ad is already right next to the text and clearly contradicts it. Clearly this means the sentence should be reduced to a more accurate form, for instance, "The ship was far from full, and so an opportunistic advertisement was placed in a Jamaican newspaper, The Daily Gleaner, offering cheap transport on the ship". 2601:150:8280:1ED4:9830:9059:12DE:BF5A ( talk) 05:18, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
Hi 2A01:4B00:8786:6000:6CF3:6C5E:1357:3541 ( talk) 10:52, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
HMT Empire Windrush article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on June 22, 2018 and June 22, 2020. |
The result of the move request was: Already processed.( non-admin closure) Winged Blades Godric 09:25, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
MV Empire Windrush →
HMT Empire Windrush – During her career, this ship carried two names, MV Monte Rosa and HMT Empire Windrush, the current article name is therefore an incorrect amalgam of the original prefix and the second name. While Empire Windrush is not the ship's original name, is the name by which she is best remembered as it was under this name she made the voyage that makes her notable.
Catsmeat (
talk)
08:28, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
My father came back from Malayer in 1950 on Empire Windrush and he told me that it was on route to be scrapped once it arrived back in England. Did they decided to keep it on as a "Coffin Ship"? - a wonderful icon the end of Empire the start of Multi Cultural (as we understand it) Britain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.85.12.187 ( talk) 14:51, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
It would be nice if this page had a picture of some sort, especially as pictures of the Empire Windrush are not particurlaly hard to come by, and it helps set the tone of a page and describe the ship. Can anyone find a suitable (royalty-free) one? 86.9.151.73 21:25, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Um, some people might consider the use of the word 'cargo' an unfortunate choice, given some of the history of the British and ships full of black people... please don't take this the wrong way, I'm sure it wasn't intentional! pomegranate 10:35, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)
While recognizing the importance of this ship to the history of post-war migration to Great Britain, I don't believe that airbrushing away the rest of its history does anything to improve relations between black and white communities. Instead, it creates resentments in the white community who feel that their history is of lesser value. The Empire Windrush made fourteen round trips from the UK to the Far East and only called once at the West Indies en-route from somewhere else. Yet almost all the ship's history before and after its single visit to the West Indies was omitted from earlier versions of the text, and these were stories that deserved some mention, not least to remember the dead, wounded and missing in action of the Second World War and the Korean War, who had some association with this ship. These were people who fought and died, suffering hardships unimaginable to us, so that we are free today to express our views here and elsewhere. My cousin was typical of many of those. A young man drafted to fight a war halfway around the world in a place that few today can identify on a map or even care about; wounded in action at the 3rd Battle of the Hook, North Korea; nine months recovering in a Japanese Military Hospital before embarking with 1'500 walking-wounded and released POWs on the Empire Windrush for passage home; a hellish ten-week crawl to the Suez Canal followed by being shipwrecked off the Barbary Coast. Like many others my cousin never fully recovered. But his history, and that of his comrades-in-arms is airbrushed away because it doesn't fit neatly with the social engineer's view of what is important. Well its important to them, and it should be important to us if we have any respect for others. But respect for the white community seems to be a rare commodity in Blair's Brave New World, 2006. Brian.Burnell 10:13, 20 July 2006 (UTC) Southampton.
There is and always was good faith. However good faith can be sorely tested when an editor adds patronising and insulting gibes, apparently intended to offend. Editors may choose to write in a style that they consider not rhetorical, and that is their absolute right. But there is no absolute right to insult others for their style. By using the phase 'ignoring the rhetoric' that editor was being dismissive. He was suggesting that my views were of no account; not because of content, but because he did not like the style. Nothing could be more calculated to offend. He should be more tolerant. And he has still not justified his allegations of POV. One has to assume that inwardly, he is perhaps wishing that his allegations had not been made. If that is the case he should move on. No one, least of all myself wants to rub his nose in it. Life is too short, and there are too many other worthwhile things to do.
On the phase in contention 'preyed on'. If a rational case not based on personal taste or prejudice can be made for not using it I would yield. So far there has been no attempt at making a rational case, and without that I will not yield.
I suspect, based on his texts, but perhaps without justification, that there is a personal thing here, with that editor resenting the Empire Windrush page recording the ship's history before and after its important association with West Indian migration. This page is an Empire Windrush page. It is about the ship; and while I have no personal objection to the page being used to record its association with West Indian migration, neither would I approve if it was 'hijacked' for that purpose alone. There is a case for the history of West Indian immigration into Britain being recorded, and recorded in its proper place; on a page created for that purpose. Perhaps other editors would like to create that page. That would be a constructive way forward for them, and I wish them luck in it. In good faith. Brian.Burnell 09:15, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Putting it quite simply Brian
I think there's a bit of overkill on the links on this article - 3 link to the National Archives Treasures page, in various forms, and one other to the National Archives Catalogue Reference page for the Windrush passenger lists. I'd suggest leaving in the link which goes direct to the Windrush section of the Treasures and removing the others - the Treasures links can be navigated to from that page, and the catalogue page tells you very little about the document, and with the reference no (which is on the treasures page) you can look it up again fairly quickly. Spookydel ( talk) 14:24, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Is the section:
"The first ship on the scene was the Titanic, Blue Funnel Line, wartime victory ship, S.S. Mentor which rendered assistance and picked up the first survivors."
Is the refence 'Titanic, Blue Funnel Line', correct or spam?
The Times of 26 April 1944 states that Monte Rosa was sunk on 31 March off Jacren. It is claimed that she was carrying a repair crew for Tirpits and about 500 crew from Scharnhorst and Tirpitz and was on the way to Germany. The latter half is plausible, given her role at the time. Was she sunk, or merely attacked? Can anyone confirm? Mjroots ( talk) 07:00, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
From a quick read, she had two names during her career - HMT Empire Windrush and MV Monte Rosa. But she never carried the name MV Empire Windrush. Would it therefore not be correct to change the article to HMT Empire Windrush? Catsmeat ( talk) 08:06, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on MV Empire Windrush. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:27, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved.Granted as a non-controversial request.( non-admin closure) Winged Blades Godric 09:23, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
MV Empire Windrush →
HMT Empire Windrush – During her career, this ship carried two names, MV Monte Rosa and HMT Empire Windrush, the current article name is therefore an incorrect amalgam of the original prefix and the second name. While Empire Windrush is not the ship's original name, it is the name by which she is best remembered as it was under this name she made the voyage that makes her notable.
Catsmeat (
talk)
08:28, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
In 1935 the ship ran a route to the port of Haifa in Palestine.-- ארינמל ( talk) 15:22, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
"Those who had not already arranged accommodation were temporarily housed in the Clapham South deep shelter in south-west London, less than a mile away from the Coldharbour Lane Employment Exchange in Brixton, where some of the arrivals sought work."
Even in a straight line the distance from Clapham South Deep Shelter to 372 Coldharbour Lane (apparently the location of the former Employment Exchange, but it's not far from the nearest end of the road) is about 1.5 miles, it's 2 miles following the shortest route along Acre Lane and (Victorian-era) Abbeville Road https://goo.gl/maps/wo4NYYqLJUWKyYHSA. Since the housing of the Windrush migrants in Clapham South is well-attested https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-44483090 this seems to be simply an error of measurement. Imalone ( talk) 11:22, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
The infobox has a sequence of three flags, but the corresponding text only two owners and operators. My best guess is that we're saying that post-1933, the ship was effectively being used as an arm of Nazi state (the middle flag), but without a formal change of ownership. Could this be made more clear and explicit in some way, if that's indeed the case? 109.255.211.6 ( talk) 17:57, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
Under the heading "West Indian immigrants", there is a sentence reading "The ship was far from full, and so an opportunistic advertisement was placed in a Jamaican newspaper, The Daily Gleaner, offering cheap transport on the ship for anybody who wanted to come and work in the UK". This is false; in fact, this ad is pictured right next to this text, and it says nothing about work, or working in the UK. All it says is "Passenger Opportunity to United Kingdom" and gives the date, prices, address and ship name: nothing about work or jobs at all. This isn't an inconsequential mistake, as it gives the false impression the immigrants were somehow enticed by offers of work in this ad. No new citation or reasoning is needed, because the ad is already right next to the text and clearly contradicts it. Clearly this means the sentence should be reduced to a more accurate form, for instance, "The ship was far from full, and so an opportunistic advertisement was placed in a Jamaican newspaper, The Daily Gleaner, offering cheap transport on the ship". 2601:150:8280:1ED4:9830:9059:12DE:BF5A ( talk) 05:18, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
Hi 2A01:4B00:8786:6000:6CF3:6C5E:1357:3541 ( talk) 10:52, 9 October 2022 (UTC)