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I fixed a statement at the end of the "History" section which seemed to imply that the Ch to X change has to do with the way in which the Nahautl prounounced the letter X. This is an ignorant statement at best, the Nahuatl had no knowledge of the letter "X" and much less how to pronounce it, as it is part of the European Roman alphabet, a group which the Nahuatl never had contact with and whos last common ancestor were likely the ancient Dravidians of Europe, whom had no alphabet. The reason many translations of Nahuatl words to Spanish use the letter "X" to represent the modern Spanish "Ch" is because this was the proper letter for designating that phoneme during the era which the colonists first came in contact with the Nahuatl; it has nothing to do with the Nahuatl's preference for one letter over the other. The Nahuatl language uses an ideogram/logogram style of writing which has absolutely no similarities with the Western Spanish style of writing or alphabet.
Actually, the Ch to X changes IS influenced by Nahuatl. There are numerous Nahuatl codices written in Latin script. Nahuatl scribes began using Latin script after Spain took control in the valley of Mexico. The letter X was used for the Nahuatl "sh" sound. The Spanish and the Nahuatlacah (Nahuatl speaking people) of the Colonial Era never used X to represent Ch. The reason, though, the X often replaces the Ch is due to the perceived error of the use of Ch in the term Chicano. There are many theories as to the origin of the word Chicano. One of them states that Chicano comes from the word Mexicano. It is theorized that, due to their poor Spanish pronunciation, the X was pronounced as Ch instead. Some activists chose to correct this by using the X to correct the spelling and thus call themselves Xicano. Nevertheless, even with this correction many of these activists still pronounce X in Xicano with the Ch sound. It is a confusing phenomenon to say the least. Benzambrano ( talk) 19:08, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
This is the archived page of CSUN MEChA's first website, which is almost unchanged from when it was first put up in the Spring of 1995. Below is a description of MEChA from the late, great Lorenzo "Toppy" Flores (Who probably would need a Wikipedia Article)
http://web.archive.org/web/19990219150314/www.csun.edu/~mo44562/
MEChA at California State University, Northridge
A Brief History of a Long Struggle
Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan (MEChA) at California State University Northridge is one of the largest and oldest Chicano student organizations in the country. Its origins parallel those of the Chicano Movement. California State University at Northridge (CSUN) MEChA actually began in the mid-Sixties when a handful of Chicano students at then San Fernando Valley State College (SFVSC) formed the United Mexican American Students (UMAS).
UMAS was one of the first national Chicano student organizations with chapters all over the southwest. Students at San Fernando Valley State College were involved in a number of issues. The organization formed to promote higher education among Chicanos and address the problems that students confronted on campus. Of special concern were the local communities of San Fernando, Pacoima, West and East Los Angeles, and the Ventura-Oxnard area. UMAS was also involved in greater concerns such as the plight of farm workers and the effects of the Vietnam War on the Chicano community.
The students of SFVSC UMAS were also active in the early statewide organizing efforts of Chicano student organizations to form a national student association. In addition to working with other UMAS chapters, SFVSC met with groups like the Mexican American Political Association (MAPA)and Mexican American Student Association (MASA) in the series of conferences which culminated in the landmark conference at the University of California at Santa Barbara where MEChA and El Plan de Santa Barbara were given fruition. It was at this conference that SFVSC UMAS officially became part of El Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan.
Also about this time, the Department of Chicano Studies at CSUN was founded through the efforts of students, staff, and faculty. Equal credit for this effort must also be given to the community of the San Fernando Valley who rallied around the students and lent it's voice to this effort.
As an organization MEChA grew and went through a series of transitions. Faculty, staff and students worked collectively to firmly establish the Chicano Studies Department. La Mesa Directiva became the governing body for the department. Composed of students, faculty, and staff, La Mesa Directiva selected faculty and determined the direction for the department.
As the members of MEChA had their respective majors and a wide range of interests, subcommitties of MEChA formed each reflecting an area of concern.
Several standing and adhoc committies have been crucial to the structure of MEChA and united under the umbrella structure of El Concilio:
* Aztlan Graduation and Scholarship Committee * Committee In Solidarity with the People of El Salvador (CISPES) * Central American United Student Association (CAUSA) * Chicana Information Center * Chicanos for Law * Chicanos for Community (Creative) Medicine * Latino Business Association (Chicano Business Association) * Chicano Media Association * Freshmore Club * Teatro Aztlan * Mujeres de Aztlan * Students United for Bilingual Education * Labor Committee * El Popo
Cultural groups have always been part of the department as well:
* Baile Folklorico Aztlan * Mariachi Aztlan * Los Sencilos * Los Huicholos * Baile Folklorico Ollin * Teatro Por La Gente
The issues have always been the same. MEChA was active in the struggle to establish the Education Opportunity Program (EOP) and Special Services for people of color. Inspired by the work of the United Farm Workers and Cesar Chavez, MEChistas were active in the grape, lettuce, and wine boycotts of the early seventies. The students held a successful fast to protest the selling of lettuce and grapes in the student cafeteria. When the original Chicano House "mysteriously" burned down after a Cinco de Mayo celebration, the students protested to establish the present structure that serves as the Chicano House and as a physical symbol of our presence at the university.
MEChA has continued to advocate for the rights of students at CSUN. Most recently, MEChistas from CSUN have been involved in the struggle to educate the community about issues like Proposition 187 and Proposition 209. In the Fall of '96, CSUN MEChA hosted a very successful MEChA Statewide conference which was attended by over a thousand Chicana and Chicano students from all over Aztlan.
As long as there are students who strive to determine their own destinies, MEChA will be there to unite them. Over these many years, MEChistas at Northridge have held fast to the belief that: La union hace la fuerza.
Lorenzo Flores, instructor of Chicano Studies
Can anyone rouse up some old timers to weigh in on this phrase? I remember seeing Mecha logos from the 1960s-1970s with the old logo (An eagle warrior head) and the words "Por La Raza, Habla el Espiritu". I have never seen the other phrase from El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan ever being used, and I belonged to 2 MEChA chapters! As a side note, I have been looking up MEChA in search engines over the years, I first saw a lot of Japanese Anime sites come up. Around the late 90s, VDARE started propagating the boiler plate for what every vigilante-type group would later on spew (It's origins having come from La Voz De Aztlan and VCT). There was a group called "Voices of Citizens Together", based in Los Angeles, that started printing full page ads with the infamous map of Mexico including reconquered Aztlan during the run up to the Proposition 187 vote in 1994. - 66.214.138.219 No place called "Aztlan" ever existed in what is now the Southwest United States, so exactly what do you mean by "reconquered Aztlan"? Is this the sort of nonsense being taught in MEChA? If so, the group needs to be investigated by the FBI, de-funded, thrown off of every campus in the United States, and disbanded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CheyenneZ ( talk • contribs) 20:13, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
The problem with these items (MEChA and Chicano Nationalism) is that they looks more like a propaganda pieces (particularly, MEChA) than "neutral" desctiptions. The apologetic tone in MEChA is so obvious, and the contents is so illogical (like an explanation that "race" means "community" and "Chicano" means virtualy any person of arbitraty ethnicity.
MEChA description glorifies that organization's political objectives, that are not all benign, to say the least, yet some editors just guy keep erasing my criticism of MEChA's agenda and methods to show up on that papge. Confront is with epithets targeting MEChA critics that aren't nearly as "gentle" as anything you seem to be able to tolerate on that page. DonKichot 10:35, 22 September 2006 (PDT)
A lot of the criticisms seems like second hand information, without citation, and possibly biased. Possibly overly Anglo American? Either way, it's not NPOV. Sgarza 14:50, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
To explain some of my edits:
MEChA is widely criticized for being a racist and separatist organization,
True, and NPOV.
whose openly stated goals constitute treason to the United States.
The accusation of "treason", is a subset of those who see MEChA as racist/seperatist, it is not a "wide criticism". After all, "treason" is a specific crime that requires more than just words to commit.
Some of the more overtly objectionable, and often deemed treasonous, goals and ideas expressed in El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán include:
To NPOV this, I chose to quote the actual text of El Plan, and to explain the interpretations of MEChA and its critics.
All of these are generally seen as calls to negate and subvert American national unity, equality before the law for all American citizens, and territorial integrity of the nation.
"Generally seen" is misleading. This would imply that this is a widely accepted viewpoint, which is false. Is the existence of native american nations within the US "subversive" of national unity?
There is no doubt that if similar goals were openly published by a political organization of a different ethnicity, such as the Caucasian Americans, such an organization would be immediately, and rightly, recognized as fascist and suppressed.
This is an argument of moral equivalence between, say, the KKK and MEChA. It overlooks the counterargument that the KKK and MEChA are fundamentally different in that one is a majority group of already-privileged members that uses widespread violence to achieve its means, whereas MEChA born during the civil rights era, a minority and underprivileged group (objectively), and HASN'T used violence and in fact eschews it.
Anyways, the use of the terms of "There is no doubt ..." and "immediately and rightly recognized as fascist" is very much non-NPOV, so I am cutting it.
Many mechistas, perhaps including the leadership, may claim that they do not actually espouse such radical notions, especially when they are questioned by conservative media. However, it is notable that MEChA has never officially repudiated any of these declarations. This creates an impression that the organization serves as an umbrella for a wide variety of organization and activists, some of them benign social service or political action groups, and others subversive radical ones.
"perhaps"? "may"? Is wikipedia a dumping ground of rampant speculation now? If the leadership claims that they do not espouse such radical notions, doesn't that contradict the following statement that MEChA hasn't officially repudiated any of these declarations? I'm cutting this until "perhaps" and "may" can be confirmed, and also this discreprancy can be resolved.
People, I have just created articles on Plan Espiritual de Aztlan and Plan de Santa Barbara. I feel that we need to try to distribute the material properly between these, when there is free time at least :). I feel that the tone of the article right now, which by the way was partially inflicted by myself, is probably not-neutral because of a focus on Plan of Aztlan. That being said, I believe that we really should emphasize the separatist nature of the movement, as reflected in the mechista Plan de Santa Barbara and their founding constitution, which also actually deserves its own article. Watcher 02:58, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It is interesting that an openly-racist, separatist, hate group like MEChA comes off sounding like a Boy Scout troop for Mexicans. "MEChA is in many ways the modern day Ku Klux Klan of Chicanos...(and) a racist organization that advocates revolution and segregation" http://www.stanfordreview.org/Archive/Volume_XXXI/Issue_2/Editorial/editorial1.shtml
Not a mention here on Wikipedia of the group's OTHER slogan, which is "Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada.” [For the race, everything. For those outside the race, nothing.]
Not a mention here on Wikipedia of the numerous violent, racist acts of thuggery the group (aka "The Tan Klan") has engaged in, including a 1996 attack on black and white americans protesting illegal immigration and 1993 protests for a "Chicano Studies" department at UCLA that caused $500,000 in damage as radicals occupied buildings. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,95871,00.html
From vDare.com [1]
"In 1995, A Latino INS officer was killed in California. The University of California-San Diego chapter of Mecha published an editorial in its newspaper, Voz Fronteriza, called "Death of a Migra Pig."
Sample:
'We're glad this pig died, he deserved to die . . . All the Migra pigs should be killed, every single one...the only good one is a dead one...The time to fight back is now. It is time to organize an anti-Migra patrol...It is to [sic] bad that more Migra pigs didn't die with him.'"
See also http://www.americanpatrol.com/MECHA/MigraPigPaper-950500.html
The group's literature is peppered with hate speech.
I don't think this article could be more POV if it tried. I literally do not recognize MEChA as it is depicted here. There is no question that it is a separatist group; it is avowedly so.
The only bias I read in these comments is the anti-Chicano bias in the comments. Vdare and American Patrol are considered nationalist hate groups.
I think the above commentator has made the mistake of taking the actions of a few MEChistas as indicative of the group as a whole. MEChA is a fairly diverse group, and it would be suprising if there weren't a few extremists among them. You can always cherry pick examples, especially if your sources are sites like VDARE and American Patrol, which the ADL and SPLC have both identified as a hate groups. You don't recognize MEChA as it's depicted here? I doubt you'd recognize MEChA if you went and sat in on their meetings. Have you ever met a MEChista? I don't claim to have known many, but the ones I have dealt with were not radical in the slightest.
If a fraternity member casts racial epithets and sparks a riot, it doesn't follow that everyone in that fraternity shares his views. If Martin Luther writes a treatise entitiled On the Jews and their Lies, it doesn't mean all Lutherans are anti-semites. If a pro-life activist bombs an abortion clinic, it does not mean that all pro-lifers condone such activity. And if one webmaster in one chapter of MEChA makes a single link to Voz de Aztlan, it does not mean that Voz de Aztlan is official spokespiece for all MEChA.
MEChA-related acts of violence, while not to be condoned or to be brushed aside lightly, are few and far between; the comparison to the KKK is disingenuous. The Standford Review article you quoted admits as much: "We are in no way suggesting that MEChA is an organization that lynches and terrorizes other races in the manner the KKK has in the past, nor has MEChA been the cause of intimidation, pain, and anguish as has the KKK". For the overwhelming majority of MEChistas, MEChA is the cultural and educational organization for Latinos, and nothing more. Indeed, MEChA has last a great deal of its radical edge over the past decades, and you can clearly see that reflected in more modern documents like Philosophy of MEChA, which emphsize education as MEChA's first and foremost goal.
Por la raza, todo, fuera de la raza, nada is not a slogan of MEChA, let alone the "other" slogan. It's a quote lifted from El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán (and is discussed there). "For those outside the race, nothing" is a misleading translation; the word "those" (aquellos, or la gente, or any synonym) doesn't exist in the Spanish original. The translation of por as "for" is also a bit sketchy (although por can mean "for", it usually means "by").
The damage done in the 1993 UCLA disturbance has been inflated by an order of magnitude of more: the real value was $35,000 to $50,000, not half a million dollars as you'll find in most reports. Again, not to condone or to dismiss lightly, but this is an example of the distortions you find on the internet by sources that have an axe to grind.
-- Cashton 6/1/2005
Just my two cents, I was a mechista in the mid 1990s. The leadership in my local MEChAs varied from radical to social and almost apolitical. The rank and file also ranged from radicals, to college students looking for a good time, to people with political aspirations. Much of the conservative commentary characterizing MEChA as a hate group stems from Southern California -based VDARE and the fodder provided to them by "La Voz de Aztlan", which IIRC had ties to RCP and other crackpot organizations during my time. La Voz de Aztlan is so over the top and antisemitic, it makes one wonder if it is not the product of some COINTELPRO type operatives. I don't remember any people from La Voz de Aztlan ever being known MEChistAs, yet somehow all the information about MEChA run by the right is gleaned from them and "El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan", which AFAIK was regarded as a piece of poetry by Alurista, not some kind of manifesto.
Pozole 21:46, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
This article is ridiculous. Hideously POV and should be deleted.
MECHA are avowedly a racist and separatist organization.
"Chicana/Chicano students of California must take upon themselves the responsibilities to promote Chicanismo within the community; as well as politicize our Raza (Race) and continue the struggle for self-determination of the Chicana/Chicano people and the liberation of Aztlan"
http://www.umich.edu/~mechaum/Natconst.html
Zuzim 19:42, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Personally I never liked the views of some individuals of MEChA I personally dealt with. Some were closed minded and bordered on racist, but there was always a balance between the militant thinker and the social advocate for equality. In any group you will find a mix of personalities and POV.
It is easy to condemn a group of people when your mind is already made up. The KKK is not MEChA, MEChA doesn't hide behind hoods and lurk in the night to scare people into submission. The goal is outright action to obtain support for the cause of equality and fairness. The term "Tan Klan" is cheap shot attempt to equate this group to an organized hate group.
Whether MEChA is a band of loosely affiliated student groups or an organized union of young americans, the goal they strive for is noble. Simply to be allowed a fair shot to succeed in this world. You can't judge all for the acts of a few, otherwise we would scrap all police departments for the brutal actions of a few. Our military abroad has been implicated in torture and maltreatment of prisoners, so all americans are viewed in the poorest light now.
MEChA is not a terrorist cell ready to strike but a beacon that attracts the marginalized, forgotten and unrepresented youth that feel they have no future and provides avenues for hope, pride and self discovery. If you have never viewed the world from your knees, you will never understand why these modes of thinking were born and are still necessary. The Civil Rights Movement paved the way but we are far from reaching the end.
"MEChA is sometimes characterized as a racist and separatist organization, with a primary goal of returning the states of California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas back to Mexico. These criticisms are based largely on the somewhat controversial language in El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán. However, the current goals of the group cannot be seen as favoring the creation of a new nation, or the reconquest of the southwestern states. MEChA leaders also counter that these statements from El Plan are not part of the MEChA constitution, and have been pulled out of context and misinterpreted. Leaders affirm that MEChA is opposed to oppression in all forms, including racism."
Bias proved. Zuzim 07:07, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
"Aztlán" refers to the Southwestern U.S. states: This is a crude simplification of a subject that is already well discussed in its own linked article.
A slogan of the group is "Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada". "Slogan of the group" implies that the phrase is quoted often by Mechistas, which is not true at all. Try finding an exemplar on their own sites. The source you quoted is a newspaper editorial with a clear bias, and it is not a primary source. How does the author know that it is a "slogan" of the group? He doesn't say, and we don't know what his source is.
(by the way, "por la raza" etc. is a quotation from El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán -- the document is generally held in high esteem by MEChA chapters, but that's not to say that mechistas consider it biblically infallible either. Also, the proper English translation is in dispute. See the article on El Plan for details).
Additionally, advocates of this viewpoint can point to the separatist rhetoric of MEChA leaders, such as Miguel Perez. The source is clearly a partisan website, not a primary source. See Wikipedia's Wikipedia:Reliable sources. I looked but could not find an original source quotation. The source does not identify Perez as a MEChA leader or spokesperson. He could be some random mechista with radical personal views that dont reflect the beliefs of most mechistas. In which case, why do we care what he says? Wikipedia's Wikipedia:verifiability policy disallows guilt by association.
However, the MEChA constitution has called for the "physical liberation" of the mythical Aztlan.: Since you used scare quotes around "physical liberation", I assume this is a quote from the MEChA constitution -- but I can't find the word "physical" anywhere in it (or a reasonable synonym).
I notice that this is a favorite line that people cite of the Plan Espiritual de Aztlan. Has anyone mentioned that in translating it from Spanish to english, it either can mean "For the race, everything, for those outside of the race, nothing." OR "Through the [effort of the]people, everything [can be acheived], without the [effort of the] people, nothing [can be acheived]. I always thought the latter was meant, at any rate, the Plan Spiritual de Atlan was always in my mind a silly and bombastic poem. Are there any native or semi-native speakers of Mexican Spanish that can corroborate this?
In common Mexican Spanish, "raza" simply means "people" (see a similar usage in dineh) it can refer to race, although it is more common to denote nationalities.
Examples "Hay mucha raza por acá." means "There are lots of people here." or "La raza Colombiana me cae bien." means "I like Colombians." -- 68.190.213.41 05:07, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
--->Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada. This message can be widely translated to mean whatever the political perspective desires and thus we find ourselves in a large mess, fighting over what the true sentiment is. Fortunantly we have the context of The Spiritual Plan of Aztlan (El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan - see the web page link on the article page under external links.) to provide structure to the statement allowing us to understand the true intent. First of all, I would like to direct your attention to the use of capital letters in the statement. We notice that specific words in the two sentences have been capitalized while others have not. La Raza is not la raza. The author carefully makes the desired point in the use of capitolized words. We can see that the effort is deliberate as the phrase does not read: por la raza todo. fuera de la raza nada. Nor do we have: Por La Raza Todo. Fuera De La Raza Nada. The statement is carefully written as: Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada. So we are clear that the statement is about The Race and not just any race. With that understanding behind us the obvious question then is which race. Once again we can find the answer in the text of The Spiritual Plan of Aztlan. Under the heading Program we find a definition of the term Chicano. Chicano is listed as La Raza de Bronze. Translated that is specifically The Bronze Race, it cannot be construed as anything but. With this information plugged back into the statement in question we are able to understand a clear intention. Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada. can mean nothing other than For The Bronze Race everything. Outside of The Bronze Race nothing. I am certain that there are many MEChistAs that do not harbor, know of, or understand this sentiment. However, for this to be so explicitly stated in The Spiritual Plan of Aztlan and in use prominantly within the MEChA organization is indicative of intentions that do not balance with their public relations face. If this is not the intention of MEChA I would think that documents might be rewritten or changed as needed to reflect a new direction in the movement. If The Spiritual Plan of Aztlan has been changed I would imagine that it would be in the best interest of MEChA to make that officially known to the public. As the documents stand presently I present my case that the article page under MEChA at Wikipedia be changed to reflect the information that I have shared here today. Thank you.˜˜˜˜NadieImportante 01/26/2007(UTC)
Can anyone explain why this article is being added to category: Neo-Nazi movements and concepts. It seems inappropriate. - Willmcw 00:28, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm thinking malicious users. I notice that this has been going on at a lot of wiki pages that deal with civil rights organizations. Mosquito-001 22:00, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I have done major re-edits and have removed the POV tag. We need an article that defines the organization, which was actually pretty tame in the 1970's. The article mentions some controversies, let's put the controversies there. I am not sure the polical campaigns are relevant here. Am about to strike them as well. Joaquin Murietta 05:38, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I think this famous phrase associated with Mecha deserves a place in this article but it deserves clarification, which you won't find on anything associated with vdare. See the hate group wiki if you need an explanation why vdare isn't a very credible source when it comes to these things. In the mean time, I've put in the explantion found on El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán. It seems to be pretty non biased. Mosquito-001 02:15, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Wheatabix, post your reason for your tag placement or the tag will be removed. -- hitssquad 14:01, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Just mentioning critics and then following up with an unverifiable controversial statement doesn't really bring much to the article. I also deleted a mention of the "MeCHA constitution." I don't doubt that a MeChA constitution somewhere on one of the hundreds of campuses that MeCHA is active has said what someone claims but which one? I've already found a few MeCHA constitutions on various websites and they all seem to differ greatly. Holding one up as the official not to be argued with constitution just because it might support your views of the organization doesn't seem very fair. Mosquito-001 22:48, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Mentioning that MeCHA's critics "include many white nationalist groups" and other "extreme" elements is fairly obviously a POV statement. I've removed it.
(UTC)
I'm going to try to clean this article up, and hopefully solve the sources problem at the same time. I could especially use help from someone who is particularly familiar with the early history/formation of the organization, as that section in particular could use some work to bring it up to encyclopedic standards, and I am not at this time very familiar with MEChA's prehistory. TheKaplan 22:29, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
MEChA has no "standardized" logo. Most chapters do not use the "Hasta La Victoria, Siempre" slogan as their official motto, or use the Red Star. Therefore, I have removed the logo, as it is a misrepresentation of the organizations in question.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Bfraga ( talk • contribs)
Honestly I think this article is very biased, Mecha is known to be an extremist and racist organization, not a human right or whatever you wrote organization. Their main objective is the "reconquista" of the south western states (Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Colorado, Utah, and south Oklahoma) that are, according to them, stolen territories that belong to mexicans. I am not going to edit the article, i just, would like to remind you that here, it's supposed to be an encyclopedia and therefore the article are supposed to be objective. best wishes.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Vincent shooter ( talk • contribs)
You are completely and utterly full of it.
Lukobe removed an external link [2] with the edit summary "remove non-notable critic". I agree that the critic is non-notable. Furthermore, links to normally avoid include "website[s] that you own or maintain, even if the guidelines above imply that it should be linked to. This is because of neutrality and point-of-view concerns; neutrality is an important objective at Wikipedia, and a difficult one. If it is relevant and informative, mention it on the talk page and let other — neutral — Wikipedia editors decide whether to add the link." (The creator of the website added the link).
Also, the site contains "unverified original research", another qualification for LTNA.
Furthermore, the site uses the term "Nican tlaca" to refer to "indigenous people", a term not used by MEChA whatsoever, but rather by the unaffiliated Mexica Movement. The use of this term further's MM's agenda by adopting their nomenclature, as one of their goals is the promotion of their terminology. It unnecessarily blurs the distinction between these distinct groups, a frequent phenomenon amongst anti-illegal-immigration, anti-immigration, anti-Mexican, and other racist websites.-- Rockero 15:46, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
The website No MEChA No Racism does not have unverified research.
The same website uses the term Nican Tlaca not because it desires to blur the distinctions between the Mexica Movement and MEChA's "indigenous" terms, but because they are equivalent. Even though the MEChA documents claim that Chicano applies to all politically active people, the president of the organization made it clear that Asian Americans cannot be Chicanos. The president further asserted that he was a Chicano by birthright i.e. Mexican was equivalent to Chicano. The MEChA documents, in addition to mentioning the Chicano identity, mention that they are "Indigenous from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego". This is the same thing as saying they are the Indigenous peoples of the Americas. Nican Tlaca means the same thing as Indigneous peoples of the Americas, but it is far shorter. Although the replacement of Indigenous peoples of the Americas with Nican Tlaca might be unnecessary, it is dramatically less wordy. Although it might be a frequent tactic of the SOS to confuse the Mexica Movement with MEChA like User:Rockero claims, the confusion is usually over MEChA's Atzlan and the Mexica Movement's both continents. These are not synonyms, but Nican Tlaca and indigenous are synonyms.-- Dark Tichondrias 16:09, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
I think this article would definitely benefit from having the organization's logo pictured at the top. I tried to add such a picture a while back but it was removed because it was, apparently, not representative of the average MEChA logo (apparently they vary slightly from chapter to chapter). Lacking the requisite knowledge as to what constitutes the "average" MEChA logo, I invite those with that knowledge to add one. I could just try to find another one and keep trying untill i get one that's acceptable, but that seems a little ineficient. TheKaplan 02:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
It is my understanding that in both English and Spanish grammar, "Chicano and Chicana" is unneccesarily repetitive, as both are already covered under "Chicano." And Mosquito, there really is no call for such presumptuous rudeness in your edit summaries. TheKaplan 07:05, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
This attempt by all you white racists is not giving a clear picture of MEChA other than the white supremacists/ movement conservative propaganda.
Leave and go write about how much you love the stars and bars or something. We know you hate for people of color to write thier own history, and to define themselves in a non-white image.. but you won't win here! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.135.249.20 ( talk • contribs)
In the criticism section of the article it makes mention of the phrase's roots, claim it originated during the Cuban Revolution, but I think it's roots may go back further than that. I noticed that the phrase bears a striking similarity to a quote of a fascist motto listed in the fascist mottos and quotes section of the wiki article on Italian Fascism. The quote roughly goes, "Everything inside the State, Nothing outside the State." Even in the "Por La Raza..." translations that translate "por" as "by" or "of," it does not reflect positively on Mecha. I'd provide a link to the article but I don't know how.
-Mike
I really don't think MeCHA as a whole is a nationalist organization. Specific chapters might be but as a whole? no. The goal of MeCHA is not to promote ethnocentrism but rather to improve the conditions of hispanic people without harming the living conditions of others. Mosquito-001 20:07, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
This article looks pretty decent right now, considering the controversial nature of its subject, and the extremist views of some of the people criticizing it. My boyfriend is a Mechista, I have attended their meetings and gotten to know many of them. I am white, and nothing they have said or done has ever even come close to seeming racist or separatist to me. In my school Mecha is just another student group. They do leadership training, social awareness programs, and social gatherings. Pretty much what every other student group does. I have always been welcomed with open arms by every member of Mecha. They do not discriminate against any race, they are simply trying to empower an already underprivileged minority - and unlike white supremacist groups like the KKK, they equate "empowering" with academic opportunity, self-growth and solidarity; not with violently oppressing everyone different from them. Anyone who is stupid and ignorant enough to compare these two groups is completely uneducated and sheltered. As a side note, on our campus, the Catholic student group is constantly under fire because, unlike Mecha, they don't explicitly welcome non-Catholics (which is a requirement to get funding) - and their objectivity is further questioned by the fact that they represent a religious institution that, by and large, discriminates against LGBT people. Yet the same loony right wing types who criticize Mecha on our campus are the exact people who insist the Catholic group should exist, get funding, and yet retain the right to deny membership to gays and non-Catholics. Right wing hipocrisy as usual, and it would not suprise me in the least to discover that the critics who have spoken against Mecha here on Wikipedia have the same set of conflicting beliefs. Anyway, despite the racist right wing nuts freaking out about an organization they're too lazy and paranoid to learn anything about in the first place, this article indeed is looking more and more fair-and-balanced (and I really do mean fair-and-balanced, not the Fox News kind of "fair-and-balanced" which is really just a euphemism for "we're lying to you"). - rglong
Criticism section needs work. Critics of MEChA are not limited to conservative groups. CNN (hardly right-wing) has referred to the group as a "Radical Hispanic separatist organization" http://www.cnnheadlienews.com/2007/US/10/25/fire.mecha/index.html The UK Times online has asserted that "MEChA supports 'reconquering' California for Mexico," referring to them as a radical group. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article901496.ece Whether misguided statements, outright racism, or proper identification of the group, the fact is that non-"conservative" groups have criticized MEChA. Biccat ( talk) 16:26, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
"the brutal 'gringo' invasion of our territories" "We do not recognize capricious frontiers on the bronze continent" "Self-Defense against the occupying forces of the oppressors" Biccat ( talk) 14:50, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I have made a few corrections in the "controversies" section with regards to the incident at the MEChA youth conference in 1998. I am not a member of MEChA, however, I have been making a documentary on this particular event. However, even though I cited my sources, and this entire paragraph does NOT cite ANY sources, my corrections were edited out twice by the same person. I wonder how such blatant lack of integrity can be allowed to occur unchecked. I correctly noted that it was a "MEChA Statewide Conference", not just a youth conference. I also noted that many participants of the conference were so outraged at the anti-Semitic references in the program, that they voted to take action against the hosting MEChA chapter. This did happen and a record of it was made. I have read it. This is important because this paragraph implies that MEChA only took action AFTER the Anti-Defimation League demanded an apology. This paragraph also unfairly and links MEChA to some anti-Semitic webzine that clearly has no affiliation with MEChA. I clarified this point with specific references to MEChA's philosphy documents that clearly state MEChA's position. MEChA is an autonomous organization that does not advocate racism, sexism, or violence. Yet, my clarifications and references were removed. Just like these wild assertions to the contrary are allowed to remain in this article, reasonable and referenced clarifications should also be allowed to remain, if only for the integrity of Wikipedia as it aims to become a scholarly source. Benzambrano ( talk) 18:35, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
1. Look into having an non-Mexican Latino translate the possible variations and nuances of the troublesome "raza" phrase.
2. Delete all unsigned comments immediately; yes, even my own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.65.226.45 ( talk) 23:28, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
The above suggestion seems like a perfectly fine idea; see if any unrelated parties have some insight into the origins and nuances of the motto. Part two is, unfortunately against Wikipedia standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.65.227.46 ( talk) 04:10, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
An RfC:
Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the
Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. –
MrX 17:01, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Aztecs DID lived in Northern Mexico /Southern USA. They where among the Chichimeca tribes, they took their name when they finally settled in the Valley of Mexico. But as a people, they did lived there. Even they acknowledge their past habitats in their own nomadic life in the North, -- 201.141.151.50 ( talk) 08:36, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
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I fixed a statement at the end of the "History" section which seemed to imply that the Ch to X change has to do with the way in which the Nahautl prounounced the letter X. This is an ignorant statement at best, the Nahuatl had no knowledge of the letter "X" and much less how to pronounce it, as it is part of the European Roman alphabet, a group which the Nahuatl never had contact with and whos last common ancestor were likely the ancient Dravidians of Europe, whom had no alphabet. The reason many translations of Nahuatl words to Spanish use the letter "X" to represent the modern Spanish "Ch" is because this was the proper letter for designating that phoneme during the era which the colonists first came in contact with the Nahuatl; it has nothing to do with the Nahuatl's preference for one letter over the other. The Nahuatl language uses an ideogram/logogram style of writing which has absolutely no similarities with the Western Spanish style of writing or alphabet.
Actually, the Ch to X changes IS influenced by Nahuatl. There are numerous Nahuatl codices written in Latin script. Nahuatl scribes began using Latin script after Spain took control in the valley of Mexico. The letter X was used for the Nahuatl "sh" sound. The Spanish and the Nahuatlacah (Nahuatl speaking people) of the Colonial Era never used X to represent Ch. The reason, though, the X often replaces the Ch is due to the perceived error of the use of Ch in the term Chicano. There are many theories as to the origin of the word Chicano. One of them states that Chicano comes from the word Mexicano. It is theorized that, due to their poor Spanish pronunciation, the X was pronounced as Ch instead. Some activists chose to correct this by using the X to correct the spelling and thus call themselves Xicano. Nevertheless, even with this correction many of these activists still pronounce X in Xicano with the Ch sound. It is a confusing phenomenon to say the least. Benzambrano ( talk) 19:08, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
This is the archived page of CSUN MEChA's first website, which is almost unchanged from when it was first put up in the Spring of 1995. Below is a description of MEChA from the late, great Lorenzo "Toppy" Flores (Who probably would need a Wikipedia Article)
http://web.archive.org/web/19990219150314/www.csun.edu/~mo44562/
MEChA at California State University, Northridge
A Brief History of a Long Struggle
Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan (MEChA) at California State University Northridge is one of the largest and oldest Chicano student organizations in the country. Its origins parallel those of the Chicano Movement. California State University at Northridge (CSUN) MEChA actually began in the mid-Sixties when a handful of Chicano students at then San Fernando Valley State College (SFVSC) formed the United Mexican American Students (UMAS).
UMAS was one of the first national Chicano student organizations with chapters all over the southwest. Students at San Fernando Valley State College were involved in a number of issues. The organization formed to promote higher education among Chicanos and address the problems that students confronted on campus. Of special concern were the local communities of San Fernando, Pacoima, West and East Los Angeles, and the Ventura-Oxnard area. UMAS was also involved in greater concerns such as the plight of farm workers and the effects of the Vietnam War on the Chicano community.
The students of SFVSC UMAS were also active in the early statewide organizing efforts of Chicano student organizations to form a national student association. In addition to working with other UMAS chapters, SFVSC met with groups like the Mexican American Political Association (MAPA)and Mexican American Student Association (MASA) in the series of conferences which culminated in the landmark conference at the University of California at Santa Barbara where MEChA and El Plan de Santa Barbara were given fruition. It was at this conference that SFVSC UMAS officially became part of El Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan.
Also about this time, the Department of Chicano Studies at CSUN was founded through the efforts of students, staff, and faculty. Equal credit for this effort must also be given to the community of the San Fernando Valley who rallied around the students and lent it's voice to this effort.
As an organization MEChA grew and went through a series of transitions. Faculty, staff and students worked collectively to firmly establish the Chicano Studies Department. La Mesa Directiva became the governing body for the department. Composed of students, faculty, and staff, La Mesa Directiva selected faculty and determined the direction for the department.
As the members of MEChA had their respective majors and a wide range of interests, subcommitties of MEChA formed each reflecting an area of concern.
Several standing and adhoc committies have been crucial to the structure of MEChA and united under the umbrella structure of El Concilio:
* Aztlan Graduation and Scholarship Committee * Committee In Solidarity with the People of El Salvador (CISPES) * Central American United Student Association (CAUSA) * Chicana Information Center * Chicanos for Law * Chicanos for Community (Creative) Medicine * Latino Business Association (Chicano Business Association) * Chicano Media Association * Freshmore Club * Teatro Aztlan * Mujeres de Aztlan * Students United for Bilingual Education * Labor Committee * El Popo
Cultural groups have always been part of the department as well:
* Baile Folklorico Aztlan * Mariachi Aztlan * Los Sencilos * Los Huicholos * Baile Folklorico Ollin * Teatro Por La Gente
The issues have always been the same. MEChA was active in the struggle to establish the Education Opportunity Program (EOP) and Special Services for people of color. Inspired by the work of the United Farm Workers and Cesar Chavez, MEChistas were active in the grape, lettuce, and wine boycotts of the early seventies. The students held a successful fast to protest the selling of lettuce and grapes in the student cafeteria. When the original Chicano House "mysteriously" burned down after a Cinco de Mayo celebration, the students protested to establish the present structure that serves as the Chicano House and as a physical symbol of our presence at the university.
MEChA has continued to advocate for the rights of students at CSUN. Most recently, MEChistas from CSUN have been involved in the struggle to educate the community about issues like Proposition 187 and Proposition 209. In the Fall of '96, CSUN MEChA hosted a very successful MEChA Statewide conference which was attended by over a thousand Chicana and Chicano students from all over Aztlan.
As long as there are students who strive to determine their own destinies, MEChA will be there to unite them. Over these many years, MEChistas at Northridge have held fast to the belief that: La union hace la fuerza.
Lorenzo Flores, instructor of Chicano Studies
Can anyone rouse up some old timers to weigh in on this phrase? I remember seeing Mecha logos from the 1960s-1970s with the old logo (An eagle warrior head) and the words "Por La Raza, Habla el Espiritu". I have never seen the other phrase from El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan ever being used, and I belonged to 2 MEChA chapters! As a side note, I have been looking up MEChA in search engines over the years, I first saw a lot of Japanese Anime sites come up. Around the late 90s, VDARE started propagating the boiler plate for what every vigilante-type group would later on spew (It's origins having come from La Voz De Aztlan and VCT). There was a group called "Voices of Citizens Together", based in Los Angeles, that started printing full page ads with the infamous map of Mexico including reconquered Aztlan during the run up to the Proposition 187 vote in 1994. - 66.214.138.219 No place called "Aztlan" ever existed in what is now the Southwest United States, so exactly what do you mean by "reconquered Aztlan"? Is this the sort of nonsense being taught in MEChA? If so, the group needs to be investigated by the FBI, de-funded, thrown off of every campus in the United States, and disbanded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CheyenneZ ( talk • contribs) 20:13, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
The problem with these items (MEChA and Chicano Nationalism) is that they looks more like a propaganda pieces (particularly, MEChA) than "neutral" desctiptions. The apologetic tone in MEChA is so obvious, and the contents is so illogical (like an explanation that "race" means "community" and "Chicano" means virtualy any person of arbitraty ethnicity.
MEChA description glorifies that organization's political objectives, that are not all benign, to say the least, yet some editors just guy keep erasing my criticism of MEChA's agenda and methods to show up on that papge. Confront is with epithets targeting MEChA critics that aren't nearly as "gentle" as anything you seem to be able to tolerate on that page. DonKichot 10:35, 22 September 2006 (PDT)
A lot of the criticisms seems like second hand information, without citation, and possibly biased. Possibly overly Anglo American? Either way, it's not NPOV. Sgarza 14:50, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
To explain some of my edits:
MEChA is widely criticized for being a racist and separatist organization,
True, and NPOV.
whose openly stated goals constitute treason to the United States.
The accusation of "treason", is a subset of those who see MEChA as racist/seperatist, it is not a "wide criticism". After all, "treason" is a specific crime that requires more than just words to commit.
Some of the more overtly objectionable, and often deemed treasonous, goals and ideas expressed in El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán include:
To NPOV this, I chose to quote the actual text of El Plan, and to explain the interpretations of MEChA and its critics.
All of these are generally seen as calls to negate and subvert American national unity, equality before the law for all American citizens, and territorial integrity of the nation.
"Generally seen" is misleading. This would imply that this is a widely accepted viewpoint, which is false. Is the existence of native american nations within the US "subversive" of national unity?
There is no doubt that if similar goals were openly published by a political organization of a different ethnicity, such as the Caucasian Americans, such an organization would be immediately, and rightly, recognized as fascist and suppressed.
This is an argument of moral equivalence between, say, the KKK and MEChA. It overlooks the counterargument that the KKK and MEChA are fundamentally different in that one is a majority group of already-privileged members that uses widespread violence to achieve its means, whereas MEChA born during the civil rights era, a minority and underprivileged group (objectively), and HASN'T used violence and in fact eschews it.
Anyways, the use of the terms of "There is no doubt ..." and "immediately and rightly recognized as fascist" is very much non-NPOV, so I am cutting it.
Many mechistas, perhaps including the leadership, may claim that they do not actually espouse such radical notions, especially when they are questioned by conservative media. However, it is notable that MEChA has never officially repudiated any of these declarations. This creates an impression that the organization serves as an umbrella for a wide variety of organization and activists, some of them benign social service or political action groups, and others subversive radical ones.
"perhaps"? "may"? Is wikipedia a dumping ground of rampant speculation now? If the leadership claims that they do not espouse such radical notions, doesn't that contradict the following statement that MEChA hasn't officially repudiated any of these declarations? I'm cutting this until "perhaps" and "may" can be confirmed, and also this discreprancy can be resolved.
People, I have just created articles on Plan Espiritual de Aztlan and Plan de Santa Barbara. I feel that we need to try to distribute the material properly between these, when there is free time at least :). I feel that the tone of the article right now, which by the way was partially inflicted by myself, is probably not-neutral because of a focus on Plan of Aztlan. That being said, I believe that we really should emphasize the separatist nature of the movement, as reflected in the mechista Plan de Santa Barbara and their founding constitution, which also actually deserves its own article. Watcher 02:58, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It is interesting that an openly-racist, separatist, hate group like MEChA comes off sounding like a Boy Scout troop for Mexicans. "MEChA is in many ways the modern day Ku Klux Klan of Chicanos...(and) a racist organization that advocates revolution and segregation" http://www.stanfordreview.org/Archive/Volume_XXXI/Issue_2/Editorial/editorial1.shtml
Not a mention here on Wikipedia of the group's OTHER slogan, which is "Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada.” [For the race, everything. For those outside the race, nothing.]
Not a mention here on Wikipedia of the numerous violent, racist acts of thuggery the group (aka "The Tan Klan") has engaged in, including a 1996 attack on black and white americans protesting illegal immigration and 1993 protests for a "Chicano Studies" department at UCLA that caused $500,000 in damage as radicals occupied buildings. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,95871,00.html
From vDare.com [1]
"In 1995, A Latino INS officer was killed in California. The University of California-San Diego chapter of Mecha published an editorial in its newspaper, Voz Fronteriza, called "Death of a Migra Pig."
Sample:
'We're glad this pig died, he deserved to die . . . All the Migra pigs should be killed, every single one...the only good one is a dead one...The time to fight back is now. It is time to organize an anti-Migra patrol...It is to [sic] bad that more Migra pigs didn't die with him.'"
See also http://www.americanpatrol.com/MECHA/MigraPigPaper-950500.html
The group's literature is peppered with hate speech.
I don't think this article could be more POV if it tried. I literally do not recognize MEChA as it is depicted here. There is no question that it is a separatist group; it is avowedly so.
The only bias I read in these comments is the anti-Chicano bias in the comments. Vdare and American Patrol are considered nationalist hate groups.
I think the above commentator has made the mistake of taking the actions of a few MEChistas as indicative of the group as a whole. MEChA is a fairly diverse group, and it would be suprising if there weren't a few extremists among them. You can always cherry pick examples, especially if your sources are sites like VDARE and American Patrol, which the ADL and SPLC have both identified as a hate groups. You don't recognize MEChA as it's depicted here? I doubt you'd recognize MEChA if you went and sat in on their meetings. Have you ever met a MEChista? I don't claim to have known many, but the ones I have dealt with were not radical in the slightest.
If a fraternity member casts racial epithets and sparks a riot, it doesn't follow that everyone in that fraternity shares his views. If Martin Luther writes a treatise entitiled On the Jews and their Lies, it doesn't mean all Lutherans are anti-semites. If a pro-life activist bombs an abortion clinic, it does not mean that all pro-lifers condone such activity. And if one webmaster in one chapter of MEChA makes a single link to Voz de Aztlan, it does not mean that Voz de Aztlan is official spokespiece for all MEChA.
MEChA-related acts of violence, while not to be condoned or to be brushed aside lightly, are few and far between; the comparison to the KKK is disingenuous. The Standford Review article you quoted admits as much: "We are in no way suggesting that MEChA is an organization that lynches and terrorizes other races in the manner the KKK has in the past, nor has MEChA been the cause of intimidation, pain, and anguish as has the KKK". For the overwhelming majority of MEChistas, MEChA is the cultural and educational organization for Latinos, and nothing more. Indeed, MEChA has last a great deal of its radical edge over the past decades, and you can clearly see that reflected in more modern documents like Philosophy of MEChA, which emphsize education as MEChA's first and foremost goal.
Por la raza, todo, fuera de la raza, nada is not a slogan of MEChA, let alone the "other" slogan. It's a quote lifted from El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán (and is discussed there). "For those outside the race, nothing" is a misleading translation; the word "those" (aquellos, or la gente, or any synonym) doesn't exist in the Spanish original. The translation of por as "for" is also a bit sketchy (although por can mean "for", it usually means "by").
The damage done in the 1993 UCLA disturbance has been inflated by an order of magnitude of more: the real value was $35,000 to $50,000, not half a million dollars as you'll find in most reports. Again, not to condone or to dismiss lightly, but this is an example of the distortions you find on the internet by sources that have an axe to grind.
-- Cashton 6/1/2005
Just my two cents, I was a mechista in the mid 1990s. The leadership in my local MEChAs varied from radical to social and almost apolitical. The rank and file also ranged from radicals, to college students looking for a good time, to people with political aspirations. Much of the conservative commentary characterizing MEChA as a hate group stems from Southern California -based VDARE and the fodder provided to them by "La Voz de Aztlan", which IIRC had ties to RCP and other crackpot organizations during my time. La Voz de Aztlan is so over the top and antisemitic, it makes one wonder if it is not the product of some COINTELPRO type operatives. I don't remember any people from La Voz de Aztlan ever being known MEChistAs, yet somehow all the information about MEChA run by the right is gleaned from them and "El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan", which AFAIK was regarded as a piece of poetry by Alurista, not some kind of manifesto.
Pozole 21:46, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
This article is ridiculous. Hideously POV and should be deleted.
MECHA are avowedly a racist and separatist organization.
"Chicana/Chicano students of California must take upon themselves the responsibilities to promote Chicanismo within the community; as well as politicize our Raza (Race) and continue the struggle for self-determination of the Chicana/Chicano people and the liberation of Aztlan"
http://www.umich.edu/~mechaum/Natconst.html
Zuzim 19:42, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Personally I never liked the views of some individuals of MEChA I personally dealt with. Some were closed minded and bordered on racist, but there was always a balance between the militant thinker and the social advocate for equality. In any group you will find a mix of personalities and POV.
It is easy to condemn a group of people when your mind is already made up. The KKK is not MEChA, MEChA doesn't hide behind hoods and lurk in the night to scare people into submission. The goal is outright action to obtain support for the cause of equality and fairness. The term "Tan Klan" is cheap shot attempt to equate this group to an organized hate group.
Whether MEChA is a band of loosely affiliated student groups or an organized union of young americans, the goal they strive for is noble. Simply to be allowed a fair shot to succeed in this world. You can't judge all for the acts of a few, otherwise we would scrap all police departments for the brutal actions of a few. Our military abroad has been implicated in torture and maltreatment of prisoners, so all americans are viewed in the poorest light now.
MEChA is not a terrorist cell ready to strike but a beacon that attracts the marginalized, forgotten and unrepresented youth that feel they have no future and provides avenues for hope, pride and self discovery. If you have never viewed the world from your knees, you will never understand why these modes of thinking were born and are still necessary. The Civil Rights Movement paved the way but we are far from reaching the end.
"MEChA is sometimes characterized as a racist and separatist organization, with a primary goal of returning the states of California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas back to Mexico. These criticisms are based largely on the somewhat controversial language in El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán. However, the current goals of the group cannot be seen as favoring the creation of a new nation, or the reconquest of the southwestern states. MEChA leaders also counter that these statements from El Plan are not part of the MEChA constitution, and have been pulled out of context and misinterpreted. Leaders affirm that MEChA is opposed to oppression in all forms, including racism."
Bias proved. Zuzim 07:07, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
"Aztlán" refers to the Southwestern U.S. states: This is a crude simplification of a subject that is already well discussed in its own linked article.
A slogan of the group is "Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada". "Slogan of the group" implies that the phrase is quoted often by Mechistas, which is not true at all. Try finding an exemplar on their own sites. The source you quoted is a newspaper editorial with a clear bias, and it is not a primary source. How does the author know that it is a "slogan" of the group? He doesn't say, and we don't know what his source is.
(by the way, "por la raza" etc. is a quotation from El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán -- the document is generally held in high esteem by MEChA chapters, but that's not to say that mechistas consider it biblically infallible either. Also, the proper English translation is in dispute. See the article on El Plan for details).
Additionally, advocates of this viewpoint can point to the separatist rhetoric of MEChA leaders, such as Miguel Perez. The source is clearly a partisan website, not a primary source. See Wikipedia's Wikipedia:Reliable sources. I looked but could not find an original source quotation. The source does not identify Perez as a MEChA leader or spokesperson. He could be some random mechista with radical personal views that dont reflect the beliefs of most mechistas. In which case, why do we care what he says? Wikipedia's Wikipedia:verifiability policy disallows guilt by association.
However, the MEChA constitution has called for the "physical liberation" of the mythical Aztlan.: Since you used scare quotes around "physical liberation", I assume this is a quote from the MEChA constitution -- but I can't find the word "physical" anywhere in it (or a reasonable synonym).
I notice that this is a favorite line that people cite of the Plan Espiritual de Aztlan. Has anyone mentioned that in translating it from Spanish to english, it either can mean "For the race, everything, for those outside of the race, nothing." OR "Through the [effort of the]people, everything [can be acheived], without the [effort of the] people, nothing [can be acheived]. I always thought the latter was meant, at any rate, the Plan Spiritual de Atlan was always in my mind a silly and bombastic poem. Are there any native or semi-native speakers of Mexican Spanish that can corroborate this?
In common Mexican Spanish, "raza" simply means "people" (see a similar usage in dineh) it can refer to race, although it is more common to denote nationalities.
Examples "Hay mucha raza por acá." means "There are lots of people here." or "La raza Colombiana me cae bien." means "I like Colombians." -- 68.190.213.41 05:07, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
--->Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada. This message can be widely translated to mean whatever the political perspective desires and thus we find ourselves in a large mess, fighting over what the true sentiment is. Fortunantly we have the context of The Spiritual Plan of Aztlan (El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan - see the web page link on the article page under external links.) to provide structure to the statement allowing us to understand the true intent. First of all, I would like to direct your attention to the use of capital letters in the statement. We notice that specific words in the two sentences have been capitalized while others have not. La Raza is not la raza. The author carefully makes the desired point in the use of capitolized words. We can see that the effort is deliberate as the phrase does not read: por la raza todo. fuera de la raza nada. Nor do we have: Por La Raza Todo. Fuera De La Raza Nada. The statement is carefully written as: Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada. So we are clear that the statement is about The Race and not just any race. With that understanding behind us the obvious question then is which race. Once again we can find the answer in the text of The Spiritual Plan of Aztlan. Under the heading Program we find a definition of the term Chicano. Chicano is listed as La Raza de Bronze. Translated that is specifically The Bronze Race, it cannot be construed as anything but. With this information plugged back into the statement in question we are able to understand a clear intention. Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada. can mean nothing other than For The Bronze Race everything. Outside of The Bronze Race nothing. I am certain that there are many MEChistAs that do not harbor, know of, or understand this sentiment. However, for this to be so explicitly stated in The Spiritual Plan of Aztlan and in use prominantly within the MEChA organization is indicative of intentions that do not balance with their public relations face. If this is not the intention of MEChA I would think that documents might be rewritten or changed as needed to reflect a new direction in the movement. If The Spiritual Plan of Aztlan has been changed I would imagine that it would be in the best interest of MEChA to make that officially known to the public. As the documents stand presently I present my case that the article page under MEChA at Wikipedia be changed to reflect the information that I have shared here today. Thank you.˜˜˜˜NadieImportante 01/26/2007(UTC)
Can anyone explain why this article is being added to category: Neo-Nazi movements and concepts. It seems inappropriate. - Willmcw 00:28, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm thinking malicious users. I notice that this has been going on at a lot of wiki pages that deal with civil rights organizations. Mosquito-001 22:00, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I have done major re-edits and have removed the POV tag. We need an article that defines the organization, which was actually pretty tame in the 1970's. The article mentions some controversies, let's put the controversies there. I am not sure the polical campaigns are relevant here. Am about to strike them as well. Joaquin Murietta 05:38, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I think this famous phrase associated with Mecha deserves a place in this article but it deserves clarification, which you won't find on anything associated with vdare. See the hate group wiki if you need an explanation why vdare isn't a very credible source when it comes to these things. In the mean time, I've put in the explantion found on El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán. It seems to be pretty non biased. Mosquito-001 02:15, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Wheatabix, post your reason for your tag placement or the tag will be removed. -- hitssquad 14:01, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Just mentioning critics and then following up with an unverifiable controversial statement doesn't really bring much to the article. I also deleted a mention of the "MeCHA constitution." I don't doubt that a MeChA constitution somewhere on one of the hundreds of campuses that MeCHA is active has said what someone claims but which one? I've already found a few MeCHA constitutions on various websites and they all seem to differ greatly. Holding one up as the official not to be argued with constitution just because it might support your views of the organization doesn't seem very fair. Mosquito-001 22:48, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Mentioning that MeCHA's critics "include many white nationalist groups" and other "extreme" elements is fairly obviously a POV statement. I've removed it.
(UTC)
I'm going to try to clean this article up, and hopefully solve the sources problem at the same time. I could especially use help from someone who is particularly familiar with the early history/formation of the organization, as that section in particular could use some work to bring it up to encyclopedic standards, and I am not at this time very familiar with MEChA's prehistory. TheKaplan 22:29, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
MEChA has no "standardized" logo. Most chapters do not use the "Hasta La Victoria, Siempre" slogan as their official motto, or use the Red Star. Therefore, I have removed the logo, as it is a misrepresentation of the organizations in question.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Bfraga ( talk • contribs)
Honestly I think this article is very biased, Mecha is known to be an extremist and racist organization, not a human right or whatever you wrote organization. Their main objective is the "reconquista" of the south western states (Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Colorado, Utah, and south Oklahoma) that are, according to them, stolen territories that belong to mexicans. I am not going to edit the article, i just, would like to remind you that here, it's supposed to be an encyclopedia and therefore the article are supposed to be objective. best wishes.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Vincent shooter ( talk • contribs)
You are completely and utterly full of it.
Lukobe removed an external link [2] with the edit summary "remove non-notable critic". I agree that the critic is non-notable. Furthermore, links to normally avoid include "website[s] that you own or maintain, even if the guidelines above imply that it should be linked to. This is because of neutrality and point-of-view concerns; neutrality is an important objective at Wikipedia, and a difficult one. If it is relevant and informative, mention it on the talk page and let other — neutral — Wikipedia editors decide whether to add the link." (The creator of the website added the link).
Also, the site contains "unverified original research", another qualification for LTNA.
Furthermore, the site uses the term "Nican tlaca" to refer to "indigenous people", a term not used by MEChA whatsoever, but rather by the unaffiliated Mexica Movement. The use of this term further's MM's agenda by adopting their nomenclature, as one of their goals is the promotion of their terminology. It unnecessarily blurs the distinction between these distinct groups, a frequent phenomenon amongst anti-illegal-immigration, anti-immigration, anti-Mexican, and other racist websites.-- Rockero 15:46, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
The website No MEChA No Racism does not have unverified research.
The same website uses the term Nican Tlaca not because it desires to blur the distinctions between the Mexica Movement and MEChA's "indigenous" terms, but because they are equivalent. Even though the MEChA documents claim that Chicano applies to all politically active people, the president of the organization made it clear that Asian Americans cannot be Chicanos. The president further asserted that he was a Chicano by birthright i.e. Mexican was equivalent to Chicano. The MEChA documents, in addition to mentioning the Chicano identity, mention that they are "Indigenous from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego". This is the same thing as saying they are the Indigenous peoples of the Americas. Nican Tlaca means the same thing as Indigneous peoples of the Americas, but it is far shorter. Although the replacement of Indigenous peoples of the Americas with Nican Tlaca might be unnecessary, it is dramatically less wordy. Although it might be a frequent tactic of the SOS to confuse the Mexica Movement with MEChA like User:Rockero claims, the confusion is usually over MEChA's Atzlan and the Mexica Movement's both continents. These are not synonyms, but Nican Tlaca and indigenous are synonyms.-- Dark Tichondrias 16:09, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
I think this article would definitely benefit from having the organization's logo pictured at the top. I tried to add such a picture a while back but it was removed because it was, apparently, not representative of the average MEChA logo (apparently they vary slightly from chapter to chapter). Lacking the requisite knowledge as to what constitutes the "average" MEChA logo, I invite those with that knowledge to add one. I could just try to find another one and keep trying untill i get one that's acceptable, but that seems a little ineficient. TheKaplan 02:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
It is my understanding that in both English and Spanish grammar, "Chicano and Chicana" is unneccesarily repetitive, as both are already covered under "Chicano." And Mosquito, there really is no call for such presumptuous rudeness in your edit summaries. TheKaplan 07:05, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
This attempt by all you white racists is not giving a clear picture of MEChA other than the white supremacists/ movement conservative propaganda.
Leave and go write about how much you love the stars and bars or something. We know you hate for people of color to write thier own history, and to define themselves in a non-white image.. but you won't win here! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.135.249.20 ( talk • contribs)
In the criticism section of the article it makes mention of the phrase's roots, claim it originated during the Cuban Revolution, but I think it's roots may go back further than that. I noticed that the phrase bears a striking similarity to a quote of a fascist motto listed in the fascist mottos and quotes section of the wiki article on Italian Fascism. The quote roughly goes, "Everything inside the State, Nothing outside the State." Even in the "Por La Raza..." translations that translate "por" as "by" or "of," it does not reflect positively on Mecha. I'd provide a link to the article but I don't know how.
-Mike
I really don't think MeCHA as a whole is a nationalist organization. Specific chapters might be but as a whole? no. The goal of MeCHA is not to promote ethnocentrism but rather to improve the conditions of hispanic people without harming the living conditions of others. Mosquito-001 20:07, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
This article looks pretty decent right now, considering the controversial nature of its subject, and the extremist views of some of the people criticizing it. My boyfriend is a Mechista, I have attended their meetings and gotten to know many of them. I am white, and nothing they have said or done has ever even come close to seeming racist or separatist to me. In my school Mecha is just another student group. They do leadership training, social awareness programs, and social gatherings. Pretty much what every other student group does. I have always been welcomed with open arms by every member of Mecha. They do not discriminate against any race, they are simply trying to empower an already underprivileged minority - and unlike white supremacist groups like the KKK, they equate "empowering" with academic opportunity, self-growth and solidarity; not with violently oppressing everyone different from them. Anyone who is stupid and ignorant enough to compare these two groups is completely uneducated and sheltered. As a side note, on our campus, the Catholic student group is constantly under fire because, unlike Mecha, they don't explicitly welcome non-Catholics (which is a requirement to get funding) - and their objectivity is further questioned by the fact that they represent a religious institution that, by and large, discriminates against LGBT people. Yet the same loony right wing types who criticize Mecha on our campus are the exact people who insist the Catholic group should exist, get funding, and yet retain the right to deny membership to gays and non-Catholics. Right wing hipocrisy as usual, and it would not suprise me in the least to discover that the critics who have spoken against Mecha here on Wikipedia have the same set of conflicting beliefs. Anyway, despite the racist right wing nuts freaking out about an organization they're too lazy and paranoid to learn anything about in the first place, this article indeed is looking more and more fair-and-balanced (and I really do mean fair-and-balanced, not the Fox News kind of "fair-and-balanced" which is really just a euphemism for "we're lying to you"). - rglong
Criticism section needs work. Critics of MEChA are not limited to conservative groups. CNN (hardly right-wing) has referred to the group as a "Radical Hispanic separatist organization" http://www.cnnheadlienews.com/2007/US/10/25/fire.mecha/index.html The UK Times online has asserted that "MEChA supports 'reconquering' California for Mexico," referring to them as a radical group. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article901496.ece Whether misguided statements, outright racism, or proper identification of the group, the fact is that non-"conservative" groups have criticized MEChA. Biccat ( talk) 16:26, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
"the brutal 'gringo' invasion of our territories" "We do not recognize capricious frontiers on the bronze continent" "Self-Defense against the occupying forces of the oppressors" Biccat ( talk) 14:50, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I have made a few corrections in the "controversies" section with regards to the incident at the MEChA youth conference in 1998. I am not a member of MEChA, however, I have been making a documentary on this particular event. However, even though I cited my sources, and this entire paragraph does NOT cite ANY sources, my corrections were edited out twice by the same person. I wonder how such blatant lack of integrity can be allowed to occur unchecked. I correctly noted that it was a "MEChA Statewide Conference", not just a youth conference. I also noted that many participants of the conference were so outraged at the anti-Semitic references in the program, that they voted to take action against the hosting MEChA chapter. This did happen and a record of it was made. I have read it. This is important because this paragraph implies that MEChA only took action AFTER the Anti-Defimation League demanded an apology. This paragraph also unfairly and links MEChA to some anti-Semitic webzine that clearly has no affiliation with MEChA. I clarified this point with specific references to MEChA's philosphy documents that clearly state MEChA's position. MEChA is an autonomous organization that does not advocate racism, sexism, or violence. Yet, my clarifications and references were removed. Just like these wild assertions to the contrary are allowed to remain in this article, reasonable and referenced clarifications should also be allowed to remain, if only for the integrity of Wikipedia as it aims to become a scholarly source. Benzambrano ( talk) 18:35, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
1. Look into having an non-Mexican Latino translate the possible variations and nuances of the troublesome "raza" phrase.
2. Delete all unsigned comments immediately; yes, even my own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.65.226.45 ( talk) 23:28, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
The above suggestion seems like a perfectly fine idea; see if any unrelated parties have some insight into the origins and nuances of the motto. Part two is, unfortunately against Wikipedia standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.65.227.46 ( talk) 04:10, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
An RfC:
Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the
Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. –
MrX 17:01, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Aztecs DID lived in Northern Mexico /Southern USA. They where among the Chichimeca tribes, they took their name when they finally settled in the Valley of Mexico. But as a people, they did lived there. Even they acknowledge their past habitats in their own nomadic life in the North, -- 201.141.151.50 ( talk) 08:36, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
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