It has been suggested to move this article to MDMA. I find this a very good idea. -- 84.136.207.196 01:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
I second the motion. Ecstasy and MDMA are not the same thing. Although MDMA is commonly the principle ingredient in ecstasy, ecstasy frequently contains other agents (frequently other pyschoactive components, not just cutting agents) in a high enough proportion that they have separate street names. Pure MDMA is usually referred to as Molly, while Ecstasy is a combination of pyschoactive compounds with MDMA likely being the principle ingredient. 67.87.98.164 03:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand. What's the point of renaming if people (wiki readers) are typing MDMA or Ecstasy and are directed to the correct page which starts with the name of the drug? Type in Tylenol (like more American readers do) and they are promptly redirected to the name of the drug (parecetamol, and the page explains the other name acetominophen). So why is the current name a problem? It takes people to where they want to go. The article says right in the first sentence that 3,4 methylenedioxymethamphetamine is also known as MDMA and Ecstasy. No problem here. I say keep the way it is. Gaviidae 13:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Why not keep the title the same but instead make it a redirect? if someone (like me for a health project) looks up "ecstacy" it takes a longer time to get there, and impedes the wiki's use. Just redirect "ecstasy" to this page. Avatar of Nothing 00:58, 16 March 2007 (UTC)Avatar of Nothing
I say we put this proposed move to a vote. -- R'son-W (speak to me/ breathe) 02:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I quickly rewrote this section to reflect the ambiguity of the scientific and medical literature. It could probably use some smoothing. Some of the points may be controversial to some. -- Mattbagg 15:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
This has been hanging atounf for way too long without any verification. Sections may be returned if they're documented:
__ meco 23:03, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Most of all, though, the sections you have removed are objective, verifiable facts, and not POV. Links may be missing but they will surely be added over time. Punanimal 14:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC).
This drug is known in some circles as a gay drug (especially when taken by males). The increased emotion and desire to rub everything and oral fixation and connection to dance culture all make it gay. This article never addresses this issue. ShadowyCabal 15:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, you have only presented stereotypes in defense of your argument, and nothing that has to do with actual homosexuality. I don't think stereotypes should be posted in this article. 4.234.51.41 18:19, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
This article is of markedly lower quality than it was a couple of months ago (and I see it's been knocked off the good article list.) I haven't yet gone back through the history to see what's gone wrong, but a revert to an earlier time is more than a little tempting. Thoughts? Anthony Citrano 10:19, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
For what its worth, I'm against such a dramatic reversion. I think the low quality parts would be easier to fix than to re-add all the sutble higher quality edits. And the current article is pretty good; mostly it just needs some more references. -- Mattbagg 19:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Pretty good is in the eyes of the beholder. The idea that this represents a neutral point of view is, interesting to say the least. Two examples of sophomoric behavior- First, the Parkinson's section. Why all the ad hominem about Ricaurte? Is this relevant to an encyclopedic entry? Second, the descriptions of scientific findings. All qualified with caveats that come from an agenda, not a neutral point of view. This is the strategy employed by the tobacco industry and the Bush administration on climate change. Selective critique of the scientific literature without any attempt at legitimate synthesis of results to determine what is likely true. A neutral point of view reports the evidence for and against with citation. A biased point of view reports evidence and then says "but some people don't believe it". again, bush on climate change. Blackrose10 16:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Anyone know of any statistics on Hyponatremia and Ecstasy use? It is quoted often as a possible negative side effect of E use, but is much rarer than most people think I believe. I saw some statistics on this before from UK or US but can't remember where from. That stupid British girl is the only case I can remember where it happened, and I don't think there were that many more instances of it as it isn't too hard to avoid if you have a brain in your head.
Really? and how do you know this? There is actually a lot of reason to believe that MDMA specifically interferes with normal regulation of salt balance. And there is not just one case report, there are many in which hyponatremia is an associated factor of medical emergency. Try using PubMed once in awhile, it is very simple to search. What is unknown is if water chugging is required to produce a dangerous hyponatremia or if individual sensitivity is involved but the evidence (i.e., lots of uninformed water chugging, relatively few hyponatremic deaths) leans toward individual sensitivity. So hyponatremia may indeed be easy to avoid, but only if you have the right genetic endowment. Blackrose10 17:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
It seems like MDMA has methamphetamine in it. But it is generally considered chemically a close relative mescaline. It effects seem to be more similar to methamphetamine though. Is MDMA a sort of mix between methamphetamine and mescaline? Zachorious 17:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
This article could do with a section / expansion of a section to incorporate the effect that Ecstasy has on Body temperature. i.e. Details on how this effects the UCP3 in skeletal muscle to produce hypothermia etc Genomaniac 15:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Did anyone notice that this is in "other putative uses" in the infobox? It sounds like vandalism to me. mrholybrain 's talk 13:01, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
If that can be sourced and verified, it would be a very interesting thing to see a treatment of in the article proper. However, pending that, I've commented out the unverified, unsourced claims from the infobox, as well as the End of Life entry. Neither is explained in the article, but both should explained and sourced before removing the comments. Note that the Anxiety entry is also a little vague. Was it used as a normal anti-anxiety medication, or is that a duplicate reference to PTSD treatment? Finally, should Parkinsons also be listed in the "Other putative uses" section? MrZaius talk 18:25, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
A lot of people claim that MDMA creates a heightened sexual experience, while other say it actually makes sex near impossible because of factors such as erectile dysfunction while on it. Are there any studies or research that have any information towards proving one, both, or none to be true? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.20.224.240 ( talk) 08:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC).
I feel that there are not enough accurate names in this article. I am currently enrolled in a facility/rehab and all we are allowed to access is Wikipedia. I (and others here) feel that there should be more names of MDMA listed, and of course, ones that are commonly used. I wish I had another website to base this information off of but I can not access one. On the other hand, I don’t necessarily think that a website should be needed here. There are numerous people here who are very familiar with this drug including myself. I am hoping that you all can understand where I am coming from here. I don’t mean to add 1000 names either, only 4 or so. I don’t exactly know where to place them in the article but that shouldn’t be too hard. Here is what I had in mind (in addition to what is already mentioned):
Please take this into consideration.
Thanks, PulsHrd 15:52, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Every street drug can have inummerable names, with new ones sprouting like mushrooms after the rain every year. There are 4 names and spellings in the article now. If there are one or two more that are very popular in a large geographic area, add them into the first sentence. Be aware that another problem with street names is that they can overlap-- X, jellies, and happy candy are example names that people throw at many unrelated recreational drugs, so they don't necessarily add information to readers. Gaviidae 13:49, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
i dont think we can include every pet name that comes along for mdma on the main page...the only of the four i would accept that tipton prisoner offered would be "rolls"...as it is used more widely and isnt just a local phenomenon...and people in some quarters use the term "rolling" to describe using it...these others i have never heard...yet "E" or sometimes "X" are the most frequently i have heard and are the term i use when talking of this subject...perhaps tho if tipton prisoner wishes to create a linked page with all the thousands of names that people come up for E then this would be interesting as a side article...all they let u use is wikipedia hugh???...well it could be worse...you can get to all sorts of interesting stuff at least on wikipedia...wikipedia may have found its highest function yet: in helping maintain the sanity of a few unfortunate trapped mdma users... Benjiwolf 11:07, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
If someone wants some reference for some of the names, I was trying to find the source for a comment above about the Florida penal code (could not find it, only references and florida.gov was down) and ran across an article from Dept of Justice which mentions two more names, Beans and Adams http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/drugs_concern/mdma/mdma.htm Of course, as soon as adults and cops begin to use the slang terms, the kiddies will think up new ones. But USDOJ is a decent source if someone's worried about geography or whatnot. Gaviidae 14:00, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Section attacking Ricaurte under Parkinson's needs to be removed. It wasn't MDMA so what is the relevance? If the "holes in the brain" thing creates an inaccurate portrayal, why discuss it? Blackrose10 17:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Continuing on a theme here. Why is all this comparison with other drugs here? Why does the death rate need to be compared with anything else? And if it needs to be so compared, how do you select the list of comparators? second hand smoke and generic "alcohol" are particularly bogus because it is not comparing acute reponses. why not focus on chemicals or toxins that produce acute fatality?
The section on hyperthermia is unbelievably speculative and behind the times. I direct you to Freedman et al 2005. Human skin temperature increases in concert with body temperature, cutaneous vessel constriction is not likely to be the issue. Changes in sweating are more likely to contribute but the same study (which was conducted in hydrated, non-dancing subjects) showed that this is because of a delay in the triggering of sweating not because of dehydration! There is no evidence, as yet, that high ambient temperature adds risk in humans or monkeys (rats another story) and in fact there is evidence that it does not. Single study in each case and the jury is still out. but it is interesting that the entry is simultaneously skeptical to the nth about studies concluding risk from MDMA itself and totally accepting of speculative and unproven hypotheses which suggest that all MDMA-related fatality can be attributed to nonMDMA situational factors! Blackrose10 19:04, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
i firmly disagree with blackrose...there are two measures...acute lethal toxicity...and actual practical toxicity and contribution to death rates...and in fact the practical effect a recreational drug such as tobacco has on death rates is far far far more important than its acute deaths which are mainly non-existant except maybe a few heart attacks a cig might trigger...its nice to see acute alcohol toxicity, yet really when comparing the lethal effect of various recreational substances we have to look at their effect on the death rates to see their deathly effects...that is the more important comparison...so tobacco has very high lethality yet minimal instantaneous lethality...alcohol has a rather large instantaneous lethality as well as greater lethality in general (mainly as off traffic accidents/murders and such and some acute poisonings)...the true lethal harm of cigarettes is tremendous compared to mdma, even just for unborn children or second hand smoke cases its a degree of magnitude or greater...and there are thousands of times more people dieing from tobacco each year... Benjiwolf 15:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
PS: when you see these actual impacts a recreational drug is having on society you then can make a solid determination as to where to best spend your money on preventions/treatment to have a significant effect for your money in aiding society and protecting the citizens welfare and lowering death rates and disease...death rates are not the only factor in making this determination though...yet a very important one obviously (or at least it should be in the future with more rational programs dont you think???)(and obviously drugs that impact the health of someone other than the voluntary user are of greatest concern, drugs causing thousands of infant deaths and deaths to others in the smoke area or that lead to thousands of murders and traffic accident deaths are where emergency measures need to be put in place)... Benjiwolf 15:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
i agree perhaps cannabis death rate should be included...(someone got that???)...(pretty low just some few traffic deaths perhaps ((supposedly far far fewer than more debilitating alcohol))...i do think however, there is not at all a debate in the article's actual section and it is just a couple lines comparing death rates and toxicities...alcohol, tobacco, (as stands) and then ganga, plus cocaine % a hallucinogen like LSD or shrooms i would think would be brief yet covers our main comparitives...so add lsd, cocaine, and cannabis someone if u wish more info...(perhaps an abused pharma too)...yet comparing to the two most heavily used drugs tobacco and alcohol is sufficient in some senses...and the death rate from allergic shellfish reactions and nuts etc. puts it all in some perspective (and gives us a little different perspective than a DEA site that makes no mention of shellfish & nut deaths)(were not the DEA here)...anyways as i dont think ganga is included in anyones tables of deaths as the figure hovers around zero... what is the use of including something that leads to no deaths at all???...and anyways one year death rate is the valid accurate comparison when assessing a substances lethal toxicity impacts...then u can mention just exactly how and why the substance/drug caused these deaths and how many were overnight acute deaths... Benjiwolf 19:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
well it seems less than 1 death per year from cannabis alone in britain, im not sure where ur statistics are from, i would have guessed between 10-100 from traffic death & just cannabis each year...yet perhaps i overestimate...just how is it they died anyways???...u need to smoke a bale of the stuff to die from it...must have been traffic death or violent crazy person that happened to have some ganga in their system too???...8 deaths in 12 years???...how many from lightning in 12 years in the UK???... Benjiwolf 17:38, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
well i go to the shellfish page and see two sentences describing toxicty and death...why is it we even have an mdma section on lethal effects??? and not just a single sentence, "there have been a few reported cases of people dying from mdma similar in number to yearly shellfish deaths"...why is it we dont???...because we want as much info as possible...yet when creating a long section on mdma deaths we need to put this in perspective as to how much of an issue it really is for society...if someone (anonymous user???blackrose???)...wants to remove the sentences putting this topic in perspective..then im going to eliminate the entire section to make it as long as the shellfish article on deaths: one sentence on mdma deaths...i dont like deleting info though, so please dont delete cited factual information and i wont have to... Benjiwolf 16:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
have there been any studies in mice/rats that use a high zinc+ high vitamin C multi-vitamin/mineral coating on an adjusted standard mg/kg dose that a human responsible-user would employ (eg. a 75mg, 100mg, 125mg, 150mg??? human mg/kg))...what would the tests show 1 dose in a year, 2 in year, 4 in a year, 6 in a year, 12 in a year??? etc.)...how about human test with one dose with the coated pill, that have never used any drugs and dont thruout the study???...how would that affect memory tests and such???...someone please if these types of tests havent been carried out on various animals subjects and humans, do some so we start to get an accurate idea of the toxicity of mdma...both with control, normal pill, and vit/min. coated pill...its time the propaganda wars ended and the public gets accurate information on substances they might voluntarily use or see others voluntarily use...its time we establish a clear toxicty threshhold for mdma & humans...its time we see exactly what it takes to block any possible toxicty... Benjiwolf 16:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
an accurate idea" of anything in particular. second, it is almost categorically the case that the exact perfect study that you dream up to answer your own question has not been done, this is the beauty of being in science as it happens. there is always lots more to accomplish. but it is also the case that you have to apply what is, at the core, basic common sense. That is, science arrives at some approximation of what is likely to be so by....approximation (and replication). by the totality of the evidence and by converging evidence. not by one study which either proves or disproves something categorically. so don't fall into the intellectually lazy position of finding an objection to a single paper and concluding that you know what is true. This is what is so bizarre about the obsession with the Ricarute 2002 Science paper- as if the fact that this even occurred questions the dozens of studies conducted previously by many investigators showing lasting serotonergic alterations produced by MDMA. This is also what is so bizarre about the unending stream of allegedly informed critique of the scientific literature by the MAPS group. One gets the impression that the advocacy position never met a scientific study that they agree actually demonstrated anything. For those of us that tend to understand the benefits and limitations of the scientific process, this appears to be a theological process. One driven by pre-existing belief rather than a quest to find out what might be so. If one is inclined to read the scientific literature carefully, one tends to find that it is not consistent with belief of a monolithic government propaganda enterprise, but rather clearly identifies consistencies and gaps in existing knowledge. Yes, and identifies limitations to specific experiments and whole approaches as well. so there is lots of information on what "people might actually use". the question is whether is it communicated effectively. there are three major barriers in this area that I see. first, trust (see "government propaganda" verbiage), two, education (i am dismayed at the general lack of understanding of the scientific process and the concept of probability and variance-this goes waaaaaay beyond the topic at hand) and third, what might be termed advocacy propaganda which attempts to advance a theological agenda, part of which is intentionally misrepresenting scientific observation. Blackrose10 00:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Im not trying to downplay acute lethal effects, yet im putting them in perspective, there is currently a scare tactic agenda in many countries on this subject of MDMA now, and the fact is things like pesticides and herbicides which are far more toxic and that effect people in a non-voluntary manner have a completely different set of guidelines to what chemicals people may choose to voluntarily come into contact with...it is somewhat hypocritical...if people want to use scare tactics then take a look at tobacco and alcohol with massive harm, leading to many millions of deaths & suffering each decade just in the US, add up unborn infant deaths from tobacco in a decade to hit 10,000, add up second hand smoke to hit 30,000...this just in the US...add up legal pharmaceutical deaths and abuses to hit tens of thousands from these...yet i dont live in that land anymore, and i never will again, i am tired of the hypocrisy, and im tired of seeing people dying & suffering (by the millions even) as of the hypocrisy...two years of hypocrisy and you hit one million deaths from alcohol and tobacco in the US...yet people want to use their scare tactics on MDMA???...3000 people died from 911, in the year 2001...that was horrible...well guess what???...3000 people died from second hand smoke that year too...and they did the next year...and the next year...and every year...im upset with all the millions dying themselves from alcohol and tobacco, yet they take these voluntarily, the approach should be accurate propaganda & information and not criminal law and prohibition...criminal law comes when you affect others than yourself...if you are drunk (or have anything in your system that may affect ur driving including mdma) and then you run someone over on the highway then its time for criminal law...anyways MDMA is far far less a concern than these other drugs...and doesnt lead to these deaths on people other than the actual user...the number of deaths is similar to shellfish allergy and nut allergy...some people happen to be "allergic to MDMA"..."the allergy" is typically their own irresponsibilty leading to their deaths, yet sometimes its accidental like with shellfish & nut deaths, sometimes its as of these prohibitions and people dont know what they have taken, or the size of it in mg, or its impure or not even MDMA
anyways as to threshholds...yes i understand ur statements, yet the fact is many studies on MDMA toxicity were based on massive repeat overdoses or with multi-drug abusers...when this biochemical was listed, enough studies such as i mentioned were not done...even without studies like this, they didnt listen to the DEA judge and placed it in schedule I instead of III right???...and we dont have a good idea of the various toxicity threshhold yet and its because studies like these wernt done...we have a general idea...we could have had a very precise idea yet people are subtley conducting studies to prove it harmful using things like unreasonable doses (that tell us possible pathways and areas to look in and little else)...and also volunteers that lead to skewed results...its been many decades of research with this and we should have been able to say just what the mg/kg non-toxic dose is(im talking about minor toxicity like to serotonin receptors and such or to memory, not for acute deaths) the fact is the research was handled poorly and was even just blocked from happening...and the fact is people need to do some research on a highzinc+vitaminC-multivitamin/mineral coated mdma pill and play with the coatings to see what totally blocks any possible mild toxicty...ive never heard of a study doing that...maybe you need to take the vitamin-mineral supplement some time before the mdma?...people need to study this to see if theres an effect and what the best timing is...but the fact is even without methods like this it could likely pass drug registration...put it with vitamin/mineral coat with the mdma absorbed after the vitamin/mineral coat takes action...then you can even put in a delayed absorbed SSRI if that isnt enough...yet i betcha just the vitamin/mineral coat is even enough...and maybe you dont even need that if the dose is responsible level and not taken every day for weeks on end...(the delayed absorbed SSRI could be used to block those that would abuse mdma, from causing neurotoxic effects to themselves, until a more rational responsible system comes to the fore besides prohibition which leads to abuse and unpredictability of dose)... Benjiwolf 11:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
you dont seem to understand, the fact is research was blocked and very hard to carry out for many years. This has been the case with other things than mdma too. It is highly relevant to carry out studies with an antioxidant coated pill, many people do take vitamin/mineral supplements while taking mdma, and people might even start designing pills coated with such things. I agree with you some people take overdoses, i agree it is unhealthy, yet i argue many times they take these large amounts specifically in this climate of prohibition, not knowing what they have taken or the size dose, not trusting any government propaganda as it is half false, not being provided with accurate information, anyways clearly the animal studies dont show the reality, millions of people use mdma, seizures are a rarity and no one is even sure its really the mdma when on these rare occasions, in the US 80,000 people die from alcohol each year, 440,000 die from tobacco, maybe 10 or so die just from mdma, 1000 unborn infants die from tobacco, at least 3000 people die from second-hand smoke, mdma seizures are one of the least of our worries, & ur better off warning people how to avoid lightning, yet the legislation instead prioritizes those 10 deaths like they are the end of the world... Benjiwolf 23:20, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
and!...and!!!..it took several homosexual scandals, one in the republican congress!, near 2000 people drowning like rats in New Orleans!!, several high profile corporate corruption trials, including Ken Lay one of the presidents personal friends and top fundraisers & previous chairman of the RNC!!!, major lobbying scandals, including the abramoff scandal with links to many many republicans including the president, & with several republican resignations including Tom DeLay the House Majority Leader!!!!, and...and!!!... a bloody fiasco with 4000 brave american service people and military contractors dead in Iraq!!!!!, and thousands upon thousands of cripples and wounded, & 24/7 daily Iraqi civilian massacres..in short it took a virtual tidal wave to get the americans, including their scientific establishment, to give a miniscule democrat majority in congress, (in the senate that shifts back if even a single dem senator dies!)(if the states wants to be right thats fine, just dont pretend with a straight face to those outside america's borders that it is somehow some liberal bastion, the "left wing media" or "left wing academy" propaganda only works on Americans, in America)(sure there are some liberals in america, after all there are 300 million people, yet unlike Osama Bin Laden, they are "securely contained", amy goodman for instance is "securely contained" 83.78.187.33 20:14, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
as a former american citizen living in switzerland, it certainly is fun having free reign to go off about american politics!, yet anyways i just dont buy this line about a left wing bias in the american academy. Yes i understand that people employed by universities & scientists dont constitute the average american perspective, are a minority, and come to issues with more accurate information, yet in my estimation of the issue the american academy is rather neutral when it comes to left or right wing biases, there are people in the academy on both sides & at center, a particular school may lean slightly to one side, yet even then you can generally find a large number of people from the school that list to the other side also, and dont you think that as the academicians are supposedly more educated and more knowledgeable that wherever they lie is indeed the neutral point, and the rest of the population is what truly lists to one side or the other? if people are coming to me saying there is a left wing bias in the academy, it tells something all right, it tells me the academy is almost surely rather neutral, yet if people place them left of the population, that its actually the population that is right of the central neutral point, which is where the academy approximately lies: at the neutral point in the center...in fact its one of the basic precepts of an academician or scientist, an unbiased centrist perspective sceptical of all sides and without prejudice to one so as to come up with good accurate research, of course there is some play and deviation from this precept, yet it is a general goal of many in the academy 83.78.169.134 23:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
novel findings and approaches are the best respected career outcomes.
P:S: the american academy tilts just slightly right these days, & of course its to be expected after a direct attack on the US on septemeber 11 to find such a tilt rightwards... 83.78.169.134 23:17, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
You have consistently dodged the issue of priorities and the facts that 10 or so people die each year from mdma similar to deaths from peanuts, vrs several degrees of magnitude more for even second hand smoke. The veracity of scientists wasnt questioned, yet since you bring that up why not?...and "every laboratory finding" wasnt either. You have never addressed the multiple lab findings that in recommended dose it is totally harmless. You have never addressed the fact that vast numbers of people die from multiple other drugs, including legal ones, and even people not using are killed from others using. You also consistently dodge responding to issues of high zinc+C vitamin/mineral supplements used in combination with MDMA, and doing studies to acertain the several ways of exactly how to block toxicity, of even large definitely neurotoxic overdoses. You seem to have a paranoid view that anyone not slamming mdma are conspiracy theorists or something, or else you revert to the excuse that they havnt looked at the evidence enough, or pretend that MAPS is somehow a lone crazy organization advocating MDMA for certain medical issues. In the current climate of fear surrounding mdma, to advocate such a thing publicly is no easy task, yet Rick Doblin isnt at all alone. (Maybe you need to read some more chemistry and to look at a few more mdma studies yourself). Ive gone to college with all sorts of other science types next to me, there are all sorts bro, and a bunch of em are intellectual rejects even too, you cant at all generalize about scientists, some are very smart, some aren't so smart. "mulish independence"...think again, half the scientists are slavishly beholden to the status quo, they believe just about anything, and are more concerned with pleasing their superiors or getting funding or jobs than anything else, it just really depends on the scientist. Sorry for my right wing bias!, yet!: Itd be a catastrophe if not for the very bright ones steering the rest in the proper direction.
Anyways we know much but not all science is relatively independent, and much of it is good, most scientists whether "right" or "left" are typically good and decent people, and at least they are of above average intelligence hopefully, yet we know for a fact that there are some issues and controversies in some areas, such as drug politics and other areas, some scientists even just get straight up paid off for one side or the other.[ [4]] Oh...and ridiculous government propaganda and half false info doesnt exist?, such as mdma drains your spinal fluid? You must be a lay person and not a scientist, as the hallmark of a scientist is being a sceptic, including scepticism of science being always 100% correct, especially on controversial issues. If this is your brain blackrose...this sounds like your brain on propaganda. Someday most all science will be independent and neutral, someday in the future perhaps. Your crying wolf about MDMA when there is a Tyrannosaurus rex devouring people through tobacco, alcohol, and many many other substances, both drugs legal and illegal, and certain chemical products used in mass. Yes abusive or addictive personality types exist in this world, yes if they abuse MDMA it can do some harm to themselves perhaps, yet I'd rather have my neighbors abusing MDMA than alcohol (which damages your brain and multiple body systems) and even beating their wives or other people and running people over in the streets. I'd also rather see them do MDMA than tobacco, altering their brains[ [5]] and ruining their lungs, and even in some cases turning into narrow minded paranoid uptight jerks always desperate for their next nicotine fix, and poisoning their neighbors with their second hand smoke. If people abuse instead of use MDMA, sure maybe some aspects of their memory might be somewhat impaired, at least theyll be nice and sweet though. But even heavy abusers remember who they are, how to drive a car, how to cook dinner, in fact they remember most anything they need to remember. But we allow them to choose these and not MDMA? Its attitudes like yours, of deflections from our true problems, that have helped crush the health care systems. People should be free to choose, yet they need good information & accurate propaganda, the tobacco page on wikipedia compared to the MDMA page was ridiculous, MDMA even has established medical uses, yet there wasnt even a mention of the types of numbers of deaths we are seeing with utterly useless tobacco, let alone long detailed sections on the many toxic effects, finally after today at least on the page, we can see the numbers of deaths each year in the states. Anyways, you sound somewhat educated, but to point you in the right direction, your best argument blackrose against MDMA, will be Huxley's insinuated argument in Brave New World, as very soon we will even be able to block toxicty from doses above the recommended dose and have the blocking engineered right into the pill, its actually a rather simple task compared to many. I'll respond to the Huxley argument in another essay... 83.79.168.184 21:51, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
there was never a proposition that all science relating to mdma was a tool of anti-mdma propaganda. Merely that more science needed to be done in this area, especially coming to the issue with the perspective that it is non-toxic or with ways to show it is non-toxic when used properly or with neuroprotective coatings on the pill for example. Only some of the science in this area has been coopted by an anti-mdma lobby, and usually its not the science itself in question, its the way it is presented by the lobby, yet sometimes too the science itself has serious faults so that its conclusions are in question... 129.132.239.8 18:58, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
P:S: as to research blocked, well for starters when it was placed in schedule I instead of schedule III, (against the DEA's own judge's recommendations to place it III), that was a highly effective block to research... 83.78.187.33 20:39, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
yet as to blocking id have to disagree, putting it into schedule I against the own DEA judge's determinations, was an effective block to research making it far more difficult, and wasnt in line with the scientific experts and judge at the trial and the information they presented, plus it casts a dark shadow on the substance when it is placed in this category which also further complicates effective accurate research and funding requests, your drawing parallels to animal research in general or the undergrads doesnt quite make sense in a response to that...placing a substance into a category harsher than is called for is a method of blocking research on that substance, it may not be the prime reason for so doing, yet many times may partially be done for that reason at least, circumventing the accepted definitions of where a substance should be placed constitutes blocking, denying the validity of a large groups call (in the case of mdma it was mainly professional certified medical & psychological experts) for a substances designation to a category to permit more research is effectively blocking them from carrying out that research, if it had been placed in category three and also hadnt been so demonized, we would indeed have a much greater wealth of information on this substance, from more accurate toxicological information to more medical-potential information, you cant get around that fact. Indeed, if this had been a substance with no potential for recreational use, and was merely a pharmaceutical candidate, it even would likely have been passed through drug registration by now by a powerful pharma, instead it was denied status as a potential pharmaceutical, when it had even been used as one for many years by professional certified medical experts, and was instead labelled as having no potential medical use despite it being used by the medical profession, and was placed in the most dangerous category reserved for substances that should have disasterous catastrophic effects on human beings & society. So methamphetamine gets status as a medical substance and mdma doesnt? Tobacco isnt even listed yet causes near a half million deaths a year in the states, including thousands of deaths to unborn infants and non-smokers, not even considering birth defects??? Thats absolute rubbish and hypocrisy. great! i have no problem doing medical studies with tobacco but its basically useless, with MDMA? good luck trying to carry out some studies!, try getting through all the paperwork & permits let alone get some funding, now finally after extreme persistance by some researchers we are seeing a couple studies into its medical potential, yet for nearly two decades research has been effectively blocked and hampered, not by scientists, by those outside the scientific establishment actually and against their wishes and recommendations, but those trying to prove it harmful or demonize it were well funded 129.132.239.8 18:58, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
anyways the mild potential toxicity is what will save the substance actually, as pure mdma it isnt patentable, yet pharma concerns will be able to patent a pill designed with no potential toxicity so will take an interest, and the fact that its a pharma product that millions upon millions of people have tested out, and are even willing to break the law to take, means it will be a top seller, large numbers of people like this medication, and it will replace dozens of other medications for various problems, meds that have more serious unpleasant side effects and modes of action...it could potentially radically take over the place of several established psychoactive pharmaceuticals for many varied psychological ailments, and ill betcha i could come up with a bunch of fancy test designs to show these other meds are slightly neurotoxic or maybe effect memory, no problem, a few of the concerns heavily into certain meds will try and slow or block this medications rise, yet others not yet so heavily into psychoactives will rush to get an approved pill out to wrest huge profits & market share from them, so the first may have to also rush to get an approved pill out as well 129.132.239.8 18:58, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
its a situation somewhat different than that for cannabis for instance. Cannabis was unpatentable of course, and it was mainly its effects other than psychoactive effects that were sought after by the medical profession. So you had Eli Lilly under the Quayles and Bushes block cannabis in the states despite side effects and toxicities less than many prescribed meds, yet at the same time design medications based on the substance yet eliminating its psychoactive properties. With MDMA however, in pure form its unpatentable of course, yet a fancy dancy 100% non-toxic engineered pill is patentable, plus its specifically its psychoactive function that is what is desired in the medication...in terms of its recreational use and impact on society, currently its very easily obtained just like any prohibited substance is, part of the problem is people have little idea as to purity and standardization and dose size in pure mg, so this causes excess toxicity issues, plus a pill design could be put out there that is even less toxic than pure mdma, plus you have pharmacists prescribing it and distributing it, and you can have labels and directions, instead of street dealers, (some of whom are pure criminals) distributing random unknown doses of unlabelled pills which might be mdma or which might be something far more toxic, many of the street dealers arent actual criminals and dont deal in weapons and really harmful substances, yet many are criminals of a lesser or greater sort (yes of course the Bushes deal in weapons too, yet i think they are mostly out of eli lilly these days for instance with more of just a national interest in it now as its an american company, and of course other pharmas may get the rights to mdma based pills that have less direct connection to weapons dealers)(for some reason its the big weapons dealers that are OK yet the little people are frowned upon)(so it is in this world)...anyways either way, whatever, people will still be able to get as much mdma as they want, it just seems to me perhaps its better to go legit with it for several reasons, and people will have a better medical product too 129.132.239.8 18:58, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The statement "Some MDMA users administer an SSRI while, or shortly after taking MDMA, in an a ttempt to prevent possible neurotoxicity. These SSRIs are typically antidepressants such as fluoxetine or sertraline. This is done to prevent dopamine from entering through the serotonin reuptake mechanism, where it is theorized that monoamine oxidase enzymes then break it down into harmful chemicals." under adverse affects is not entirely accurate. An SSRI is a SELECTIVE Serotinin reuptake inhibitor, meaning that it selectively inhibits the reuptake of Serotonin. It does not block the reuptake of dopamine (even though both are monoamine neurotransmitters). I'll try to gather some thoughts and sources to expand accurately on this section. =) Apoptic 03:36, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
And yes, MAO does break down dopamine that is transported back to the presynaptic neuron (via the dopamine reuptake pump), but this is a natural, necessary occurence! Apoptic 03:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
people consistently try and remove (usually anonymous users) the death figures from alcohol or tobacco, they know that to put things in perspective really hurts anti-mdma lobbys & ridiculous propaganda, and hurts pro-alcohol pro-tobacco lobbys...yet it is only in there to give a referenced perspective about the seriousness of the problem, i am reinstating factual information from the DEA itself!!! the simply fact is that 80,000+ people die from alcohol each year, 440,000+ from tobacco, 10 perhaps from mdma alone, maybe 100 with mdma but other things in their blood, mdma causing a similar amount of deaths to shellfish and nut poisonings, on the other hand alcohol & tobacco are lethal substances, I will begin deleting all information about deaths and mdma to a similar length as is for shellfish in line with how wikipedia presents things that cause a dozen deaths a year if people do not desist from blocking referenced material of valid comparisons to other commonly used drugs like alcohol and tobacco! 83.79.136.221 23:11, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
PS: tell the eli lilly reps! tell them i am hitting their page on prozac hard with some stating 25,000 deaths by suicide if people dont lay off this page and stop removing statistics! In fact the page on aspirin doesnt mention deaths in the intro, deaths in the UK from aspirin and mdma are very similar, yet there has been a trend in the last ten years for aspirin deaths to head from the 30s to less than 10, and mdma from less than 10 to the 30s, anyways i want mention of mdma deaths in the intro as i come with a medical perspective and its good to show that a medicine can be lethal even if it is extremely rare, but to even this out with other pages on other pharmaceuticals besides mdma i am going to start heading to all medicine pages and start putting death stats in the intro!!!... 83.79.136.221 23:43, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
The "Poly substance use" section was copied from this page: http://thegooddrugsguide.com/ecstasy/mixing.htm
Sigh... GarconDansLeNoir 21:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Come down currently redirects here: ...The Dandy Warhols Come Down. I am thinking maybe a new article should be created for come downs (3 mentions here isn't enough), after all even Suicide Tuesday has a page of its own. Alternatively Come down could become a disambiguation page with a definition of come down and links to MDMA and other related pages, as well as a link to '...The Dandy Warhols Come Down'. This is also mentioned here: Talk:...The_Dandy_Warhols_Come_Down Any comments? 86.27.109.100 10:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
The contraindications infromation for extacy should include any drug that acts on dopamine receptors, in particular cocaine, as cocaine will overwhelm the physical euphoria due to increased dopamine levels and thus take away from the "hug drug" aspect of MDMA (www.erowid.org)
Also, most tabs currently on the streets contain Methamphetamine despite the fact that it is specifically mentioned on the contraindications bar (information gained by surveying tested pills on pillreports.com)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.107.81.16 ( talk • contribs) 07:39, 16 April 2007
Today I restored the template:verylong on this page, as its length is getting a little bit out of hand. The "Acute toxic/dangerous effects" section alone is 17500 characters long, without any subsections, and the total article length is over 76k. It and the intro are getting a little too lengthy & repetitive. See the manual of style and either deal with the situation or discuss before removing the template. Here's the relevant section of the manual: Wikipedia:Article size. MrZaius talk 14:30, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Per the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy, I have commented out the following section of this article:
According to the verifiability policy, "articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources." Further "The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not with those seeking to remove it."
⟳ausa کui × 04:36, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is seriously long. I intend to break some of this stuff out into separate articles, but I will begin by trimming the lead by moving some of that stuff into the body. The lead also strikes me as a little too sympathetic; a number of specious comparisons are made to alcohol and various parts of the lead sound like excuses. Simishag 01:33, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
It is rather long. I think that the external links adds to it. There is no way this many is necessary. Anyone support my sifting through them, deleting some?
hmwith
talk
22:38, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
What are thedens? I see this word used in this article, seeming to mean "effects", but it is not in Webster's dictionary, nor on dictionary.com, nor have I heard of any reference to it. Could someone tell me where this word came from? murftown 15:52, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I thought thedans have something to do with Scientology. Haven't you seen that South Park episode?-- PoidLover 21:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I've made an MDMA metabolism pathway image, and feel there should be a section on this page about it. I'm torn, however, between placing it on this page or the Effects of MDMA on the human body page. It seems more appropriate here, but at the same time this chart is also about the Toxicity of the metabolites on the human body. There is no true chemistry/pharmacology section on here though. Just a little confused but would like to add in this image. The metabolism image can be found here Ccroberts( t · c · g ) 04:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I created Effects of MDMA on the human body mainly because that section was one of the largest in this article, and it seemed like the easiest split point. But perhaps that "Effects" article title isn't the best. I'd prefer to keep the main article as a general summary, covering legality, recreational use and cultural impact, touching briefly on short term health effects to provide context for the other topics. All the highly technical info (synthesis, metabolism) and studies on long term health effects could probably be moved to various sub-articles. Simishag 07:09, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
The link I used is to a Reuters Health News article, but I am concerned that their articles are not accessible for long. I am noting their source here for your reference: SOURCE: British Journal of Pharmacology, online May 29, 2007, perhaps somebody can bring this closer to the primary source. The UCP link is interesting. Perhaps there is potential as a diet drug for this or a related compound. Here are quotes from the story that should pique interest:
-- Africangenesis 09:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
The paper, Mills et al. 2007; Influence of dietary fats on ecstasy-induced hyperthermia, is in pre-print so the best thing is to use http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/sj.bjp.0707312 as the reference. And there is potential for "a related drug" as diet aid, ever heard of Fen-Phen? Setola et al Mol Pharmacol. 2003 Jun;63(6):1223-9, suggest that there may be some related cardiac effects of MDMA. Blackrose10 22:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
-I mentioned this back in March, look under Missing Effects, archive 2. There is a more direct Mills et al paper published in Nature, i shall update the reference list with a link to the following. “Uncoupling the agony from ecstasy” by Mills et al in Nature (2003), 426: 403-404 Instead of using a simple link to reuters, this should do for the time being. Genomaniac ( talk) 00:03, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be best if we turned every major section into its own article so that the different subjects could be elaborated upon, while having at least a brief summary or the most important facts being left on this article.
Basically, I think we should make liberal use of this template:
.
And in siphoning off the major content into its own articles, we should at least include some things from Effects of MDMA on the human body.
Blueaster 02:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I have a real problem with this claim: "Contrary to popular belief, the majority of pills do not include ingredients such as methamphetamine, cocaine, PCP, heroin, or LSD." The source used for this was AC Parrott, Psychopharmacology, March 2004: "The latest reports suggest that non-MDMA tablets are now infrequent, with purity levels between 90% and 100%."
First, Parrott says "reports suggest that non-MDMA tablets are infrequent." This is a pretty weak statement upon which to base an assertion like "the majority of pills." There's no indication of what reports he's talking about, and we can't easily figure that out since this source isn't available online. Second, the assertion is directly contradicted by brief searches of pill testing results on EcstasyData.org, referenced earlier in the paragraph. I see an awful lot of results that include methamphetamine. Third, I don't believe the statement as worded can even be supported. "Popular belief" and "the majority" are simply too hard to justify in this context. Parrott indicates purity levels of "90% to 100%", but that does NOT mean that 90-100% of pills are pure. Rather, it means he has found pills that are themselves 90-100% pure.
Finally, some of this is directly contradicted elsewhere in the article. It is sufficient to say that MDMA may not be pure due to its illegality, and we can easily reference some of the other substances that have been detected in pills. Sweeping claims about "the majority" of pills do not belong in this article. Simishag 20:51, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
could we get one or two instances of this changed. Its POV, and 4 times is a bit much for it in this article.-- Crossmr 04:55, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
The recently added paragraph is poorly written and uncited. The chemical synthesis of MDMA is already covered under "Synthesis" and the metabolic breakdown of MDMA is well-covered in Effects of MDMA on the human body. The claims of hallucinogenic properties are belied by the literature; see for example the relevant section of the "Effects" article, or read Shulgin. There is, at the least, a debate over whether MDMA is properly termed a "hallucinogen." The claim about the "Indole Ring" is uncited, and from a quick search, appears more related to psylocibin than MDMA. I really don't see anything worth keeping in that paragraph, which is why I've removed it twice now. Simishag 22:10, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
While the article does mention rave culture and it's heavy use of MDMA, I think the article should also contain at least some reference to the "hyphy movement" in the California Bay Area. The rapid expansion of this culture and prevalence in music (Mac Dre, E-40 et al)indicates some need to mention this cultural movement in this article. Thoughts? Kafkadreams 22:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
People don't use menthol products because they think it gets them higher or enhances the effects. It just feels like you're breathing in a mentholated cloud and the sensation is pleasurable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.51.2.128 ( talk • contribs) 20:28, 17 July 2007
It has been suggested to move this article to MDMA. I find this a very good idea. -- 84.136.207.196 01:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
I second the motion. Ecstasy and MDMA are not the same thing. Although MDMA is commonly the principle ingredient in ecstasy, ecstasy frequently contains other agents (frequently other pyschoactive components, not just cutting agents) in a high enough proportion that they have separate street names. Pure MDMA is usually referred to as Molly, while Ecstasy is a combination of pyschoactive compounds with MDMA likely being the principle ingredient. 67.87.98.164 03:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand. What's the point of renaming if people (wiki readers) are typing MDMA or Ecstasy and are directed to the correct page which starts with the name of the drug? Type in Tylenol (like more American readers do) and they are promptly redirected to the name of the drug (parecetamol, and the page explains the other name acetominophen). So why is the current name a problem? It takes people to where they want to go. The article says right in the first sentence that 3,4 methylenedioxymethamphetamine is also known as MDMA and Ecstasy. No problem here. I say keep the way it is. Gaviidae 13:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Why not keep the title the same but instead make it a redirect? if someone (like me for a health project) looks up "ecstacy" it takes a longer time to get there, and impedes the wiki's use. Just redirect "ecstasy" to this page. Avatar of Nothing 00:58, 16 March 2007 (UTC)Avatar of Nothing
I say we put this proposed move to a vote. -- R'son-W (speak to me/ breathe) 02:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I quickly rewrote this section to reflect the ambiguity of the scientific and medical literature. It could probably use some smoothing. Some of the points may be controversial to some. -- Mattbagg 15:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
This has been hanging atounf for way too long without any verification. Sections may be returned if they're documented:
__ meco 23:03, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Most of all, though, the sections you have removed are objective, verifiable facts, and not POV. Links may be missing but they will surely be added over time. Punanimal 14:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC).
This drug is known in some circles as a gay drug (especially when taken by males). The increased emotion and desire to rub everything and oral fixation and connection to dance culture all make it gay. This article never addresses this issue. ShadowyCabal 15:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, you have only presented stereotypes in defense of your argument, and nothing that has to do with actual homosexuality. I don't think stereotypes should be posted in this article. 4.234.51.41 18:19, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
This article is of markedly lower quality than it was a couple of months ago (and I see it's been knocked off the good article list.) I haven't yet gone back through the history to see what's gone wrong, but a revert to an earlier time is more than a little tempting. Thoughts? Anthony Citrano 10:19, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
For what its worth, I'm against such a dramatic reversion. I think the low quality parts would be easier to fix than to re-add all the sutble higher quality edits. And the current article is pretty good; mostly it just needs some more references. -- Mattbagg 19:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Pretty good is in the eyes of the beholder. The idea that this represents a neutral point of view is, interesting to say the least. Two examples of sophomoric behavior- First, the Parkinson's section. Why all the ad hominem about Ricaurte? Is this relevant to an encyclopedic entry? Second, the descriptions of scientific findings. All qualified with caveats that come from an agenda, not a neutral point of view. This is the strategy employed by the tobacco industry and the Bush administration on climate change. Selective critique of the scientific literature without any attempt at legitimate synthesis of results to determine what is likely true. A neutral point of view reports the evidence for and against with citation. A biased point of view reports evidence and then says "but some people don't believe it". again, bush on climate change. Blackrose10 16:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Anyone know of any statistics on Hyponatremia and Ecstasy use? It is quoted often as a possible negative side effect of E use, but is much rarer than most people think I believe. I saw some statistics on this before from UK or US but can't remember where from. That stupid British girl is the only case I can remember where it happened, and I don't think there were that many more instances of it as it isn't too hard to avoid if you have a brain in your head.
Really? and how do you know this? There is actually a lot of reason to believe that MDMA specifically interferes with normal regulation of salt balance. And there is not just one case report, there are many in which hyponatremia is an associated factor of medical emergency. Try using PubMed once in awhile, it is very simple to search. What is unknown is if water chugging is required to produce a dangerous hyponatremia or if individual sensitivity is involved but the evidence (i.e., lots of uninformed water chugging, relatively few hyponatremic deaths) leans toward individual sensitivity. So hyponatremia may indeed be easy to avoid, but only if you have the right genetic endowment. Blackrose10 17:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
It seems like MDMA has methamphetamine in it. But it is generally considered chemically a close relative mescaline. It effects seem to be more similar to methamphetamine though. Is MDMA a sort of mix between methamphetamine and mescaline? Zachorious 17:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
This article could do with a section / expansion of a section to incorporate the effect that Ecstasy has on Body temperature. i.e. Details on how this effects the UCP3 in skeletal muscle to produce hypothermia etc Genomaniac 15:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Did anyone notice that this is in "other putative uses" in the infobox? It sounds like vandalism to me. mrholybrain 's talk 13:01, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
If that can be sourced and verified, it would be a very interesting thing to see a treatment of in the article proper. However, pending that, I've commented out the unverified, unsourced claims from the infobox, as well as the End of Life entry. Neither is explained in the article, but both should explained and sourced before removing the comments. Note that the Anxiety entry is also a little vague. Was it used as a normal anti-anxiety medication, or is that a duplicate reference to PTSD treatment? Finally, should Parkinsons also be listed in the "Other putative uses" section? MrZaius talk 18:25, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
A lot of people claim that MDMA creates a heightened sexual experience, while other say it actually makes sex near impossible because of factors such as erectile dysfunction while on it. Are there any studies or research that have any information towards proving one, both, or none to be true? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.20.224.240 ( talk) 08:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC).
I feel that there are not enough accurate names in this article. I am currently enrolled in a facility/rehab and all we are allowed to access is Wikipedia. I (and others here) feel that there should be more names of MDMA listed, and of course, ones that are commonly used. I wish I had another website to base this information off of but I can not access one. On the other hand, I don’t necessarily think that a website should be needed here. There are numerous people here who are very familiar with this drug including myself. I am hoping that you all can understand where I am coming from here. I don’t mean to add 1000 names either, only 4 or so. I don’t exactly know where to place them in the article but that shouldn’t be too hard. Here is what I had in mind (in addition to what is already mentioned):
Please take this into consideration.
Thanks, PulsHrd 15:52, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Every street drug can have inummerable names, with new ones sprouting like mushrooms after the rain every year. There are 4 names and spellings in the article now. If there are one or two more that are very popular in a large geographic area, add them into the first sentence. Be aware that another problem with street names is that they can overlap-- X, jellies, and happy candy are example names that people throw at many unrelated recreational drugs, so they don't necessarily add information to readers. Gaviidae 13:49, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
i dont think we can include every pet name that comes along for mdma on the main page...the only of the four i would accept that tipton prisoner offered would be "rolls"...as it is used more widely and isnt just a local phenomenon...and people in some quarters use the term "rolling" to describe using it...these others i have never heard...yet "E" or sometimes "X" are the most frequently i have heard and are the term i use when talking of this subject...perhaps tho if tipton prisoner wishes to create a linked page with all the thousands of names that people come up for E then this would be interesting as a side article...all they let u use is wikipedia hugh???...well it could be worse...you can get to all sorts of interesting stuff at least on wikipedia...wikipedia may have found its highest function yet: in helping maintain the sanity of a few unfortunate trapped mdma users... Benjiwolf 11:07, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
If someone wants some reference for some of the names, I was trying to find the source for a comment above about the Florida penal code (could not find it, only references and florida.gov was down) and ran across an article from Dept of Justice which mentions two more names, Beans and Adams http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/drugs_concern/mdma/mdma.htm Of course, as soon as adults and cops begin to use the slang terms, the kiddies will think up new ones. But USDOJ is a decent source if someone's worried about geography or whatnot. Gaviidae 14:00, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Section attacking Ricaurte under Parkinson's needs to be removed. It wasn't MDMA so what is the relevance? If the "holes in the brain" thing creates an inaccurate portrayal, why discuss it? Blackrose10 17:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Continuing on a theme here. Why is all this comparison with other drugs here? Why does the death rate need to be compared with anything else? And if it needs to be so compared, how do you select the list of comparators? second hand smoke and generic "alcohol" are particularly bogus because it is not comparing acute reponses. why not focus on chemicals or toxins that produce acute fatality?
The section on hyperthermia is unbelievably speculative and behind the times. I direct you to Freedman et al 2005. Human skin temperature increases in concert with body temperature, cutaneous vessel constriction is not likely to be the issue. Changes in sweating are more likely to contribute but the same study (which was conducted in hydrated, non-dancing subjects) showed that this is because of a delay in the triggering of sweating not because of dehydration! There is no evidence, as yet, that high ambient temperature adds risk in humans or monkeys (rats another story) and in fact there is evidence that it does not. Single study in each case and the jury is still out. but it is interesting that the entry is simultaneously skeptical to the nth about studies concluding risk from MDMA itself and totally accepting of speculative and unproven hypotheses which suggest that all MDMA-related fatality can be attributed to nonMDMA situational factors! Blackrose10 19:04, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
i firmly disagree with blackrose...there are two measures...acute lethal toxicity...and actual practical toxicity and contribution to death rates...and in fact the practical effect a recreational drug such as tobacco has on death rates is far far far more important than its acute deaths which are mainly non-existant except maybe a few heart attacks a cig might trigger...its nice to see acute alcohol toxicity, yet really when comparing the lethal effect of various recreational substances we have to look at their effect on the death rates to see their deathly effects...that is the more important comparison...so tobacco has very high lethality yet minimal instantaneous lethality...alcohol has a rather large instantaneous lethality as well as greater lethality in general (mainly as off traffic accidents/murders and such and some acute poisonings)...the true lethal harm of cigarettes is tremendous compared to mdma, even just for unborn children or second hand smoke cases its a degree of magnitude or greater...and there are thousands of times more people dieing from tobacco each year... Benjiwolf 15:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
PS: when you see these actual impacts a recreational drug is having on society you then can make a solid determination as to where to best spend your money on preventions/treatment to have a significant effect for your money in aiding society and protecting the citizens welfare and lowering death rates and disease...death rates are not the only factor in making this determination though...yet a very important one obviously (or at least it should be in the future with more rational programs dont you think???)(and obviously drugs that impact the health of someone other than the voluntary user are of greatest concern, drugs causing thousands of infant deaths and deaths to others in the smoke area or that lead to thousands of murders and traffic accident deaths are where emergency measures need to be put in place)... Benjiwolf 15:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
i agree perhaps cannabis death rate should be included...(someone got that???)...(pretty low just some few traffic deaths perhaps ((supposedly far far fewer than more debilitating alcohol))...i do think however, there is not at all a debate in the article's actual section and it is just a couple lines comparing death rates and toxicities...alcohol, tobacco, (as stands) and then ganga, plus cocaine % a hallucinogen like LSD or shrooms i would think would be brief yet covers our main comparitives...so add lsd, cocaine, and cannabis someone if u wish more info...(perhaps an abused pharma too)...yet comparing to the two most heavily used drugs tobacco and alcohol is sufficient in some senses...and the death rate from allergic shellfish reactions and nuts etc. puts it all in some perspective (and gives us a little different perspective than a DEA site that makes no mention of shellfish & nut deaths)(were not the DEA here)...anyways as i dont think ganga is included in anyones tables of deaths as the figure hovers around zero... what is the use of including something that leads to no deaths at all???...and anyways one year death rate is the valid accurate comparison when assessing a substances lethal toxicity impacts...then u can mention just exactly how and why the substance/drug caused these deaths and how many were overnight acute deaths... Benjiwolf 19:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
well it seems less than 1 death per year from cannabis alone in britain, im not sure where ur statistics are from, i would have guessed between 10-100 from traffic death & just cannabis each year...yet perhaps i overestimate...just how is it they died anyways???...u need to smoke a bale of the stuff to die from it...must have been traffic death or violent crazy person that happened to have some ganga in their system too???...8 deaths in 12 years???...how many from lightning in 12 years in the UK???... Benjiwolf 17:38, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
well i go to the shellfish page and see two sentences describing toxicty and death...why is it we even have an mdma section on lethal effects??? and not just a single sentence, "there have been a few reported cases of people dying from mdma similar in number to yearly shellfish deaths"...why is it we dont???...because we want as much info as possible...yet when creating a long section on mdma deaths we need to put this in perspective as to how much of an issue it really is for society...if someone (anonymous user???blackrose???)...wants to remove the sentences putting this topic in perspective..then im going to eliminate the entire section to make it as long as the shellfish article on deaths: one sentence on mdma deaths...i dont like deleting info though, so please dont delete cited factual information and i wont have to... Benjiwolf 16:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
have there been any studies in mice/rats that use a high zinc+ high vitamin C multi-vitamin/mineral coating on an adjusted standard mg/kg dose that a human responsible-user would employ (eg. a 75mg, 100mg, 125mg, 150mg??? human mg/kg))...what would the tests show 1 dose in a year, 2 in year, 4 in a year, 6 in a year, 12 in a year??? etc.)...how about human test with one dose with the coated pill, that have never used any drugs and dont thruout the study???...how would that affect memory tests and such???...someone please if these types of tests havent been carried out on various animals subjects and humans, do some so we start to get an accurate idea of the toxicity of mdma...both with control, normal pill, and vit/min. coated pill...its time the propaganda wars ended and the public gets accurate information on substances they might voluntarily use or see others voluntarily use...its time we establish a clear toxicty threshhold for mdma & humans...its time we see exactly what it takes to block any possible toxicty... Benjiwolf 16:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
an accurate idea" of anything in particular. second, it is almost categorically the case that the exact perfect study that you dream up to answer your own question has not been done, this is the beauty of being in science as it happens. there is always lots more to accomplish. but it is also the case that you have to apply what is, at the core, basic common sense. That is, science arrives at some approximation of what is likely to be so by....approximation (and replication). by the totality of the evidence and by converging evidence. not by one study which either proves or disproves something categorically. so don't fall into the intellectually lazy position of finding an objection to a single paper and concluding that you know what is true. This is what is so bizarre about the obsession with the Ricarute 2002 Science paper- as if the fact that this even occurred questions the dozens of studies conducted previously by many investigators showing lasting serotonergic alterations produced by MDMA. This is also what is so bizarre about the unending stream of allegedly informed critique of the scientific literature by the MAPS group. One gets the impression that the advocacy position never met a scientific study that they agree actually demonstrated anything. For those of us that tend to understand the benefits and limitations of the scientific process, this appears to be a theological process. One driven by pre-existing belief rather than a quest to find out what might be so. If one is inclined to read the scientific literature carefully, one tends to find that it is not consistent with belief of a monolithic government propaganda enterprise, but rather clearly identifies consistencies and gaps in existing knowledge. Yes, and identifies limitations to specific experiments and whole approaches as well. so there is lots of information on what "people might actually use". the question is whether is it communicated effectively. there are three major barriers in this area that I see. first, trust (see "government propaganda" verbiage), two, education (i am dismayed at the general lack of understanding of the scientific process and the concept of probability and variance-this goes waaaaaay beyond the topic at hand) and third, what might be termed advocacy propaganda which attempts to advance a theological agenda, part of which is intentionally misrepresenting scientific observation. Blackrose10 00:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Im not trying to downplay acute lethal effects, yet im putting them in perspective, there is currently a scare tactic agenda in many countries on this subject of MDMA now, and the fact is things like pesticides and herbicides which are far more toxic and that effect people in a non-voluntary manner have a completely different set of guidelines to what chemicals people may choose to voluntarily come into contact with...it is somewhat hypocritical...if people want to use scare tactics then take a look at tobacco and alcohol with massive harm, leading to many millions of deaths & suffering each decade just in the US, add up unborn infant deaths from tobacco in a decade to hit 10,000, add up second hand smoke to hit 30,000...this just in the US...add up legal pharmaceutical deaths and abuses to hit tens of thousands from these...yet i dont live in that land anymore, and i never will again, i am tired of the hypocrisy, and im tired of seeing people dying & suffering (by the millions even) as of the hypocrisy...two years of hypocrisy and you hit one million deaths from alcohol and tobacco in the US...yet people want to use their scare tactics on MDMA???...3000 people died from 911, in the year 2001...that was horrible...well guess what???...3000 people died from second hand smoke that year too...and they did the next year...and the next year...and every year...im upset with all the millions dying themselves from alcohol and tobacco, yet they take these voluntarily, the approach should be accurate propaganda & information and not criminal law and prohibition...criminal law comes when you affect others than yourself...if you are drunk (or have anything in your system that may affect ur driving including mdma) and then you run someone over on the highway then its time for criminal law...anyways MDMA is far far less a concern than these other drugs...and doesnt lead to these deaths on people other than the actual user...the number of deaths is similar to shellfish allergy and nut allergy...some people happen to be "allergic to MDMA"..."the allergy" is typically their own irresponsibilty leading to their deaths, yet sometimes its accidental like with shellfish & nut deaths, sometimes its as of these prohibitions and people dont know what they have taken, or the size of it in mg, or its impure or not even MDMA
anyways as to threshholds...yes i understand ur statements, yet the fact is many studies on MDMA toxicity were based on massive repeat overdoses or with multi-drug abusers...when this biochemical was listed, enough studies such as i mentioned were not done...even without studies like this, they didnt listen to the DEA judge and placed it in schedule I instead of III right???...and we dont have a good idea of the various toxicity threshhold yet and its because studies like these wernt done...we have a general idea...we could have had a very precise idea yet people are subtley conducting studies to prove it harmful using things like unreasonable doses (that tell us possible pathways and areas to look in and little else)...and also volunteers that lead to skewed results...its been many decades of research with this and we should have been able to say just what the mg/kg non-toxic dose is(im talking about minor toxicity like to serotonin receptors and such or to memory, not for acute deaths) the fact is the research was handled poorly and was even just blocked from happening...and the fact is people need to do some research on a highzinc+vitaminC-multivitamin/mineral coated mdma pill and play with the coatings to see what totally blocks any possible mild toxicty...ive never heard of a study doing that...maybe you need to take the vitamin-mineral supplement some time before the mdma?...people need to study this to see if theres an effect and what the best timing is...but the fact is even without methods like this it could likely pass drug registration...put it with vitamin/mineral coat with the mdma absorbed after the vitamin/mineral coat takes action...then you can even put in a delayed absorbed SSRI if that isnt enough...yet i betcha just the vitamin/mineral coat is even enough...and maybe you dont even need that if the dose is responsible level and not taken every day for weeks on end...(the delayed absorbed SSRI could be used to block those that would abuse mdma, from causing neurotoxic effects to themselves, until a more rational responsible system comes to the fore besides prohibition which leads to abuse and unpredictability of dose)... Benjiwolf 11:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
you dont seem to understand, the fact is research was blocked and very hard to carry out for many years. This has been the case with other things than mdma too. It is highly relevant to carry out studies with an antioxidant coated pill, many people do take vitamin/mineral supplements while taking mdma, and people might even start designing pills coated with such things. I agree with you some people take overdoses, i agree it is unhealthy, yet i argue many times they take these large amounts specifically in this climate of prohibition, not knowing what they have taken or the size dose, not trusting any government propaganda as it is half false, not being provided with accurate information, anyways clearly the animal studies dont show the reality, millions of people use mdma, seizures are a rarity and no one is even sure its really the mdma when on these rare occasions, in the US 80,000 people die from alcohol each year, 440,000 die from tobacco, maybe 10 or so die just from mdma, 1000 unborn infants die from tobacco, at least 3000 people die from second-hand smoke, mdma seizures are one of the least of our worries, & ur better off warning people how to avoid lightning, yet the legislation instead prioritizes those 10 deaths like they are the end of the world... Benjiwolf 23:20, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
and!...and!!!..it took several homosexual scandals, one in the republican congress!, near 2000 people drowning like rats in New Orleans!!, several high profile corporate corruption trials, including Ken Lay one of the presidents personal friends and top fundraisers & previous chairman of the RNC!!!, major lobbying scandals, including the abramoff scandal with links to many many republicans including the president, & with several republican resignations including Tom DeLay the House Majority Leader!!!!, and...and!!!... a bloody fiasco with 4000 brave american service people and military contractors dead in Iraq!!!!!, and thousands upon thousands of cripples and wounded, & 24/7 daily Iraqi civilian massacres..in short it took a virtual tidal wave to get the americans, including their scientific establishment, to give a miniscule democrat majority in congress, (in the senate that shifts back if even a single dem senator dies!)(if the states wants to be right thats fine, just dont pretend with a straight face to those outside america's borders that it is somehow some liberal bastion, the "left wing media" or "left wing academy" propaganda only works on Americans, in America)(sure there are some liberals in america, after all there are 300 million people, yet unlike Osama Bin Laden, they are "securely contained", amy goodman for instance is "securely contained" 83.78.187.33 20:14, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
as a former american citizen living in switzerland, it certainly is fun having free reign to go off about american politics!, yet anyways i just dont buy this line about a left wing bias in the american academy. Yes i understand that people employed by universities & scientists dont constitute the average american perspective, are a minority, and come to issues with more accurate information, yet in my estimation of the issue the american academy is rather neutral when it comes to left or right wing biases, there are people in the academy on both sides & at center, a particular school may lean slightly to one side, yet even then you can generally find a large number of people from the school that list to the other side also, and dont you think that as the academicians are supposedly more educated and more knowledgeable that wherever they lie is indeed the neutral point, and the rest of the population is what truly lists to one side or the other? if people are coming to me saying there is a left wing bias in the academy, it tells something all right, it tells me the academy is almost surely rather neutral, yet if people place them left of the population, that its actually the population that is right of the central neutral point, which is where the academy approximately lies: at the neutral point in the center...in fact its one of the basic precepts of an academician or scientist, an unbiased centrist perspective sceptical of all sides and without prejudice to one so as to come up with good accurate research, of course there is some play and deviation from this precept, yet it is a general goal of many in the academy 83.78.169.134 23:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
novel findings and approaches are the best respected career outcomes.
P:S: the american academy tilts just slightly right these days, & of course its to be expected after a direct attack on the US on septemeber 11 to find such a tilt rightwards... 83.78.169.134 23:17, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
You have consistently dodged the issue of priorities and the facts that 10 or so people die each year from mdma similar to deaths from peanuts, vrs several degrees of magnitude more for even second hand smoke. The veracity of scientists wasnt questioned, yet since you bring that up why not?...and "every laboratory finding" wasnt either. You have never addressed the multiple lab findings that in recommended dose it is totally harmless. You have never addressed the fact that vast numbers of people die from multiple other drugs, including legal ones, and even people not using are killed from others using. You also consistently dodge responding to issues of high zinc+C vitamin/mineral supplements used in combination with MDMA, and doing studies to acertain the several ways of exactly how to block toxicity, of even large definitely neurotoxic overdoses. You seem to have a paranoid view that anyone not slamming mdma are conspiracy theorists or something, or else you revert to the excuse that they havnt looked at the evidence enough, or pretend that MAPS is somehow a lone crazy organization advocating MDMA for certain medical issues. In the current climate of fear surrounding mdma, to advocate such a thing publicly is no easy task, yet Rick Doblin isnt at all alone. (Maybe you need to read some more chemistry and to look at a few more mdma studies yourself). Ive gone to college with all sorts of other science types next to me, there are all sorts bro, and a bunch of em are intellectual rejects even too, you cant at all generalize about scientists, some are very smart, some aren't so smart. "mulish independence"...think again, half the scientists are slavishly beholden to the status quo, they believe just about anything, and are more concerned with pleasing their superiors or getting funding or jobs than anything else, it just really depends on the scientist. Sorry for my right wing bias!, yet!: Itd be a catastrophe if not for the very bright ones steering the rest in the proper direction.
Anyways we know much but not all science is relatively independent, and much of it is good, most scientists whether "right" or "left" are typically good and decent people, and at least they are of above average intelligence hopefully, yet we know for a fact that there are some issues and controversies in some areas, such as drug politics and other areas, some scientists even just get straight up paid off for one side or the other.[ [4]] Oh...and ridiculous government propaganda and half false info doesnt exist?, such as mdma drains your spinal fluid? You must be a lay person and not a scientist, as the hallmark of a scientist is being a sceptic, including scepticism of science being always 100% correct, especially on controversial issues. If this is your brain blackrose...this sounds like your brain on propaganda. Someday most all science will be independent and neutral, someday in the future perhaps. Your crying wolf about MDMA when there is a Tyrannosaurus rex devouring people through tobacco, alcohol, and many many other substances, both drugs legal and illegal, and certain chemical products used in mass. Yes abusive or addictive personality types exist in this world, yes if they abuse MDMA it can do some harm to themselves perhaps, yet I'd rather have my neighbors abusing MDMA than alcohol (which damages your brain and multiple body systems) and even beating their wives or other people and running people over in the streets. I'd also rather see them do MDMA than tobacco, altering their brains[ [5]] and ruining their lungs, and even in some cases turning into narrow minded paranoid uptight jerks always desperate for their next nicotine fix, and poisoning their neighbors with their second hand smoke. If people abuse instead of use MDMA, sure maybe some aspects of their memory might be somewhat impaired, at least theyll be nice and sweet though. But even heavy abusers remember who they are, how to drive a car, how to cook dinner, in fact they remember most anything they need to remember. But we allow them to choose these and not MDMA? Its attitudes like yours, of deflections from our true problems, that have helped crush the health care systems. People should be free to choose, yet they need good information & accurate propaganda, the tobacco page on wikipedia compared to the MDMA page was ridiculous, MDMA even has established medical uses, yet there wasnt even a mention of the types of numbers of deaths we are seeing with utterly useless tobacco, let alone long detailed sections on the many toxic effects, finally after today at least on the page, we can see the numbers of deaths each year in the states. Anyways, you sound somewhat educated, but to point you in the right direction, your best argument blackrose against MDMA, will be Huxley's insinuated argument in Brave New World, as very soon we will even be able to block toxicty from doses above the recommended dose and have the blocking engineered right into the pill, its actually a rather simple task compared to many. I'll respond to the Huxley argument in another essay... 83.79.168.184 21:51, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
there was never a proposition that all science relating to mdma was a tool of anti-mdma propaganda. Merely that more science needed to be done in this area, especially coming to the issue with the perspective that it is non-toxic or with ways to show it is non-toxic when used properly or with neuroprotective coatings on the pill for example. Only some of the science in this area has been coopted by an anti-mdma lobby, and usually its not the science itself in question, its the way it is presented by the lobby, yet sometimes too the science itself has serious faults so that its conclusions are in question... 129.132.239.8 18:58, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
P:S: as to research blocked, well for starters when it was placed in schedule I instead of schedule III, (against the DEA's own judge's recommendations to place it III), that was a highly effective block to research... 83.78.187.33 20:39, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
yet as to blocking id have to disagree, putting it into schedule I against the own DEA judge's determinations, was an effective block to research making it far more difficult, and wasnt in line with the scientific experts and judge at the trial and the information they presented, plus it casts a dark shadow on the substance when it is placed in this category which also further complicates effective accurate research and funding requests, your drawing parallels to animal research in general or the undergrads doesnt quite make sense in a response to that...placing a substance into a category harsher than is called for is a method of blocking research on that substance, it may not be the prime reason for so doing, yet many times may partially be done for that reason at least, circumventing the accepted definitions of where a substance should be placed constitutes blocking, denying the validity of a large groups call (in the case of mdma it was mainly professional certified medical & psychological experts) for a substances designation to a category to permit more research is effectively blocking them from carrying out that research, if it had been placed in category three and also hadnt been so demonized, we would indeed have a much greater wealth of information on this substance, from more accurate toxicological information to more medical-potential information, you cant get around that fact. Indeed, if this had been a substance with no potential for recreational use, and was merely a pharmaceutical candidate, it even would likely have been passed through drug registration by now by a powerful pharma, instead it was denied status as a potential pharmaceutical, when it had even been used as one for many years by professional certified medical experts, and was instead labelled as having no potential medical use despite it being used by the medical profession, and was placed in the most dangerous category reserved for substances that should have disasterous catastrophic effects on human beings & society. So methamphetamine gets status as a medical substance and mdma doesnt? Tobacco isnt even listed yet causes near a half million deaths a year in the states, including thousands of deaths to unborn infants and non-smokers, not even considering birth defects??? Thats absolute rubbish and hypocrisy. great! i have no problem doing medical studies with tobacco but its basically useless, with MDMA? good luck trying to carry out some studies!, try getting through all the paperwork & permits let alone get some funding, now finally after extreme persistance by some researchers we are seeing a couple studies into its medical potential, yet for nearly two decades research has been effectively blocked and hampered, not by scientists, by those outside the scientific establishment actually and against their wishes and recommendations, but those trying to prove it harmful or demonize it were well funded 129.132.239.8 18:58, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
anyways the mild potential toxicity is what will save the substance actually, as pure mdma it isnt patentable, yet pharma concerns will be able to patent a pill designed with no potential toxicity so will take an interest, and the fact that its a pharma product that millions upon millions of people have tested out, and are even willing to break the law to take, means it will be a top seller, large numbers of people like this medication, and it will replace dozens of other medications for various problems, meds that have more serious unpleasant side effects and modes of action...it could potentially radically take over the place of several established psychoactive pharmaceuticals for many varied psychological ailments, and ill betcha i could come up with a bunch of fancy test designs to show these other meds are slightly neurotoxic or maybe effect memory, no problem, a few of the concerns heavily into certain meds will try and slow or block this medications rise, yet others not yet so heavily into psychoactives will rush to get an approved pill out to wrest huge profits & market share from them, so the first may have to also rush to get an approved pill out as well 129.132.239.8 18:58, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
its a situation somewhat different than that for cannabis for instance. Cannabis was unpatentable of course, and it was mainly its effects other than psychoactive effects that were sought after by the medical profession. So you had Eli Lilly under the Quayles and Bushes block cannabis in the states despite side effects and toxicities less than many prescribed meds, yet at the same time design medications based on the substance yet eliminating its psychoactive properties. With MDMA however, in pure form its unpatentable of course, yet a fancy dancy 100% non-toxic engineered pill is patentable, plus its specifically its psychoactive function that is what is desired in the medication...in terms of its recreational use and impact on society, currently its very easily obtained just like any prohibited substance is, part of the problem is people have little idea as to purity and standardization and dose size in pure mg, so this causes excess toxicity issues, plus a pill design could be put out there that is even less toxic than pure mdma, plus you have pharmacists prescribing it and distributing it, and you can have labels and directions, instead of street dealers, (some of whom are pure criminals) distributing random unknown doses of unlabelled pills which might be mdma or which might be something far more toxic, many of the street dealers arent actual criminals and dont deal in weapons and really harmful substances, yet many are criminals of a lesser or greater sort (yes of course the Bushes deal in weapons too, yet i think they are mostly out of eli lilly these days for instance with more of just a national interest in it now as its an american company, and of course other pharmas may get the rights to mdma based pills that have less direct connection to weapons dealers)(for some reason its the big weapons dealers that are OK yet the little people are frowned upon)(so it is in this world)...anyways either way, whatever, people will still be able to get as much mdma as they want, it just seems to me perhaps its better to go legit with it for several reasons, and people will have a better medical product too 129.132.239.8 18:58, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The statement "Some MDMA users administer an SSRI while, or shortly after taking MDMA, in an a ttempt to prevent possible neurotoxicity. These SSRIs are typically antidepressants such as fluoxetine or sertraline. This is done to prevent dopamine from entering through the serotonin reuptake mechanism, where it is theorized that monoamine oxidase enzymes then break it down into harmful chemicals." under adverse affects is not entirely accurate. An SSRI is a SELECTIVE Serotinin reuptake inhibitor, meaning that it selectively inhibits the reuptake of Serotonin. It does not block the reuptake of dopamine (even though both are monoamine neurotransmitters). I'll try to gather some thoughts and sources to expand accurately on this section. =) Apoptic 03:36, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
And yes, MAO does break down dopamine that is transported back to the presynaptic neuron (via the dopamine reuptake pump), but this is a natural, necessary occurence! Apoptic 03:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
people consistently try and remove (usually anonymous users) the death figures from alcohol or tobacco, they know that to put things in perspective really hurts anti-mdma lobbys & ridiculous propaganda, and hurts pro-alcohol pro-tobacco lobbys...yet it is only in there to give a referenced perspective about the seriousness of the problem, i am reinstating factual information from the DEA itself!!! the simply fact is that 80,000+ people die from alcohol each year, 440,000+ from tobacco, 10 perhaps from mdma alone, maybe 100 with mdma but other things in their blood, mdma causing a similar amount of deaths to shellfish and nut poisonings, on the other hand alcohol & tobacco are lethal substances, I will begin deleting all information about deaths and mdma to a similar length as is for shellfish in line with how wikipedia presents things that cause a dozen deaths a year if people do not desist from blocking referenced material of valid comparisons to other commonly used drugs like alcohol and tobacco! 83.79.136.221 23:11, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
PS: tell the eli lilly reps! tell them i am hitting their page on prozac hard with some stating 25,000 deaths by suicide if people dont lay off this page and stop removing statistics! In fact the page on aspirin doesnt mention deaths in the intro, deaths in the UK from aspirin and mdma are very similar, yet there has been a trend in the last ten years for aspirin deaths to head from the 30s to less than 10, and mdma from less than 10 to the 30s, anyways i want mention of mdma deaths in the intro as i come with a medical perspective and its good to show that a medicine can be lethal even if it is extremely rare, but to even this out with other pages on other pharmaceuticals besides mdma i am going to start heading to all medicine pages and start putting death stats in the intro!!!... 83.79.136.221 23:43, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
The "Poly substance use" section was copied from this page: http://thegooddrugsguide.com/ecstasy/mixing.htm
Sigh... GarconDansLeNoir 21:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Come down currently redirects here: ...The Dandy Warhols Come Down. I am thinking maybe a new article should be created for come downs (3 mentions here isn't enough), after all even Suicide Tuesday has a page of its own. Alternatively Come down could become a disambiguation page with a definition of come down and links to MDMA and other related pages, as well as a link to '...The Dandy Warhols Come Down'. This is also mentioned here: Talk:...The_Dandy_Warhols_Come_Down Any comments? 86.27.109.100 10:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
The contraindications infromation for extacy should include any drug that acts on dopamine receptors, in particular cocaine, as cocaine will overwhelm the physical euphoria due to increased dopamine levels and thus take away from the "hug drug" aspect of MDMA (www.erowid.org)
Also, most tabs currently on the streets contain Methamphetamine despite the fact that it is specifically mentioned on the contraindications bar (information gained by surveying tested pills on pillreports.com)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.107.81.16 ( talk • contribs) 07:39, 16 April 2007
Today I restored the template:verylong on this page, as its length is getting a little bit out of hand. The "Acute toxic/dangerous effects" section alone is 17500 characters long, without any subsections, and the total article length is over 76k. It and the intro are getting a little too lengthy & repetitive. See the manual of style and either deal with the situation or discuss before removing the template. Here's the relevant section of the manual: Wikipedia:Article size. MrZaius talk 14:30, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Per the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy, I have commented out the following section of this article:
According to the verifiability policy, "articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources." Further "The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not with those seeking to remove it."
⟳ausa کui × 04:36, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is seriously long. I intend to break some of this stuff out into separate articles, but I will begin by trimming the lead by moving some of that stuff into the body. The lead also strikes me as a little too sympathetic; a number of specious comparisons are made to alcohol and various parts of the lead sound like excuses. Simishag 01:33, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
It is rather long. I think that the external links adds to it. There is no way this many is necessary. Anyone support my sifting through them, deleting some?
hmwith
talk
22:38, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
What are thedens? I see this word used in this article, seeming to mean "effects", but it is not in Webster's dictionary, nor on dictionary.com, nor have I heard of any reference to it. Could someone tell me where this word came from? murftown 15:52, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I thought thedans have something to do with Scientology. Haven't you seen that South Park episode?-- PoidLover 21:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I've made an MDMA metabolism pathway image, and feel there should be a section on this page about it. I'm torn, however, between placing it on this page or the Effects of MDMA on the human body page. It seems more appropriate here, but at the same time this chart is also about the Toxicity of the metabolites on the human body. There is no true chemistry/pharmacology section on here though. Just a little confused but would like to add in this image. The metabolism image can be found here Ccroberts( t · c · g ) 04:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I created Effects of MDMA on the human body mainly because that section was one of the largest in this article, and it seemed like the easiest split point. But perhaps that "Effects" article title isn't the best. I'd prefer to keep the main article as a general summary, covering legality, recreational use and cultural impact, touching briefly on short term health effects to provide context for the other topics. All the highly technical info (synthesis, metabolism) and studies on long term health effects could probably be moved to various sub-articles. Simishag 07:09, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
The link I used is to a Reuters Health News article, but I am concerned that their articles are not accessible for long. I am noting their source here for your reference: SOURCE: British Journal of Pharmacology, online May 29, 2007, perhaps somebody can bring this closer to the primary source. The UCP link is interesting. Perhaps there is potential as a diet drug for this or a related compound. Here are quotes from the story that should pique interest:
-- Africangenesis 09:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
The paper, Mills et al. 2007; Influence of dietary fats on ecstasy-induced hyperthermia, is in pre-print so the best thing is to use http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/sj.bjp.0707312 as the reference. And there is potential for "a related drug" as diet aid, ever heard of Fen-Phen? Setola et al Mol Pharmacol. 2003 Jun;63(6):1223-9, suggest that there may be some related cardiac effects of MDMA. Blackrose10 22:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
-I mentioned this back in March, look under Missing Effects, archive 2. There is a more direct Mills et al paper published in Nature, i shall update the reference list with a link to the following. “Uncoupling the agony from ecstasy” by Mills et al in Nature (2003), 426: 403-404 Instead of using a simple link to reuters, this should do for the time being. Genomaniac ( talk) 00:03, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be best if we turned every major section into its own article so that the different subjects could be elaborated upon, while having at least a brief summary or the most important facts being left on this article.
Basically, I think we should make liberal use of this template:
.
And in siphoning off the major content into its own articles, we should at least include some things from Effects of MDMA on the human body.
Blueaster 02:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I have a real problem with this claim: "Contrary to popular belief, the majority of pills do not include ingredients such as methamphetamine, cocaine, PCP, heroin, or LSD." The source used for this was AC Parrott, Psychopharmacology, March 2004: "The latest reports suggest that non-MDMA tablets are now infrequent, with purity levels between 90% and 100%."
First, Parrott says "reports suggest that non-MDMA tablets are infrequent." This is a pretty weak statement upon which to base an assertion like "the majority of pills." There's no indication of what reports he's talking about, and we can't easily figure that out since this source isn't available online. Second, the assertion is directly contradicted by brief searches of pill testing results on EcstasyData.org, referenced earlier in the paragraph. I see an awful lot of results that include methamphetamine. Third, I don't believe the statement as worded can even be supported. "Popular belief" and "the majority" are simply too hard to justify in this context. Parrott indicates purity levels of "90% to 100%", but that does NOT mean that 90-100% of pills are pure. Rather, it means he has found pills that are themselves 90-100% pure.
Finally, some of this is directly contradicted elsewhere in the article. It is sufficient to say that MDMA may not be pure due to its illegality, and we can easily reference some of the other substances that have been detected in pills. Sweeping claims about "the majority" of pills do not belong in this article. Simishag 20:51, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
could we get one or two instances of this changed. Its POV, and 4 times is a bit much for it in this article.-- Crossmr 04:55, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
The recently added paragraph is poorly written and uncited. The chemical synthesis of MDMA is already covered under "Synthesis" and the metabolic breakdown of MDMA is well-covered in Effects of MDMA on the human body. The claims of hallucinogenic properties are belied by the literature; see for example the relevant section of the "Effects" article, or read Shulgin. There is, at the least, a debate over whether MDMA is properly termed a "hallucinogen." The claim about the "Indole Ring" is uncited, and from a quick search, appears more related to psylocibin than MDMA. I really don't see anything worth keeping in that paragraph, which is why I've removed it twice now. Simishag 22:10, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
While the article does mention rave culture and it's heavy use of MDMA, I think the article should also contain at least some reference to the "hyphy movement" in the California Bay Area. The rapid expansion of this culture and prevalence in music (Mac Dre, E-40 et al)indicates some need to mention this cultural movement in this article. Thoughts? Kafkadreams 22:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
People don't use menthol products because they think it gets them higher or enhances the effects. It just feels like you're breathing in a mentholated cloud and the sensation is pleasurable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.51.2.128 ( talk • contribs) 20:28, 17 July 2007