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A very nice start... could easily be bumped up to B-class or higher with just a little format clean-up, and some expansion. LordAmeth 23:56, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry but this introduction reads like something from an Airfix model or a Boys Own' annual:
1) "Buick nicknamed it the Hellcat." Not quite. Buick gave it the company name 'Hellcat' for publicity purposes. The vehicle was known throughout the US Army as the M18, by the troops as a 'TD'.
2) "Hellcat crews took advantage of the vehicle's speed to minimize the enemy's ability to pierce its thin armor." Completely and utterly wrong. The M18 was by far the fastest tracked vehicle on roads. However across country it was no faster then an M4 and often much slower. There are two principle reasons for this. A) The vehicles lighter weight gave it less momentum when being driven through thick hedgerows and other natural obstacles; more often than not it would 'ride over' rather than drive through. A tactical weakness in that it presented the underside of the vehicle to enemy fire far too often. B) Its far lower level of armour protection engendered a feeling of caution in its crews. Most M18 crews drove very slowly and carefully up to the line of battle rather than risk blundering into enemy fire which the vehicles light armour would do little to protect against.
3) "Hellcats were used to penetrate the sides and back of the heavily armored Tiger and Panther tanks used by the Germans." This sentence implies the M18 was designed to do this. In fact poor performance of the 76mm gun/ordnance meant this was often the only way to defeat enemy armour. In other words the tactic of striking from the sides or rear was not a choice but a necessity and not just for the M18 but the M10 and even the M36.
4) "Utilized in the western front and in D-Day, the Hellcat, along with the Sherman Firefly and M10 Wolverine, was the main firepower in the invasion of Europe." The M18 was used in relatively small numbers compared to the M4/Sherman, Cromwell, M10/Wolverine/Achilles, towed 6 pdr/57mm, Towed 17 pdr, plus thousands of 25 pdr, 105mm, 5.5 in, 7.2 in, 155mm and 203 mm tube artillery. This sentence is pretty nonsensical. Loates Jr ( talk) 13:14, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
~~Andy Loates~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Loates Jr ( talk • contribs) 13:11, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
much of what you said is contrary to objective sources and AARs. the hellcats off-road speed was twice that of the Sherman's off-road speed until HVSS equipped Sherman's improved that to little over 2/3rds. exposing the underside of the tank while traversing obstacles due to light weight was not a mode of loss in any AAR, but a theoretical shortcoming (not surprisingly conceived by the m18's many opponents in the general staff). the shortcomings of the 76mm gun was apparent, but not a shortcoming of the vehicle as much as it was the entire US armed forces... it was still capable until the end of the war at defeating armor, albeit with deteriorating effect, as AARs '44 and onward note 71.227.199.53 ( talk) 18:35, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
Which company made these tank destroyers? Syrion 20:54, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Buick was awarded the production contracts in two batches and built them all. - swathdiver —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.173.226.169 ( talk) 07:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Are we seriously using the military channel as a source here? Surely if the statements are true they can be easily sourced to something more reliable. DMorpheus ( talk) 18:33, 19 March 2009 (UTC) The Military Channel is correct in its information, as all of the information they provide on this particular subject coincides with one or more reputable sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyrotechnicman ( talk • contribs) 18:39, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
In the introduction it says that the M18 "was the fastest tracked armored fighting vehicle during the war with a top speed up to 60 mph.", even stating a source for that claim. However, imho this is wrong as the Soviet BT-7 was even faster. Superegge —Preceding undated comment added 16:33, 10 September 2010 (UTC).
OK, am I retarded or what!?
" [...] On December 19–20, the 1st Battalion of the 506th PIR was ordered to support Team Desobry, a battalion-sized tank-infantry task force of the 10th Armored Division (United States) assigned to defend Noville[3] located north-northeast of both Foy and of Bastogne just 4.36 miles (7 km) away. With just four[2] M18 tank destroyers of the 705th Tank Destroyer Battalion to assist, the paratroopers attacked units of the 2nd Panzer Division, whose mission was to proceed by secondary roads via Monaville (just northwest of Bastogne) to seize a key highway and capture, among other objectives, fuel dumps—for the lack of which the overall German counter-offensive faltered and failed. Worried about the threat to its left flank in Bastogne, it organized a major joint arms attack to seize Noville. Team Desobry's high speed highway journey to reach the blocking position is [...] "
The only thing certain about this action is that Jerries and Yankees are involved... and that Yankees rode in some damn fast Buick ... I would be happy to rewrite it, if only I coud figure out who is fu-ing with whom and in what order. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.141.43.127 ( talk) 14:18, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
The introductory paragraphs state that production was started in 1943, but later says we started shipping them (at least, if you read the ambiguous wording a certain way) in 1941:
"When the Americans entered the war in 1941, they began to supply China with armored infantry vehicles, including the M18 Hellcat. "
This needs to be clarified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.33.195.149 ( talk) 18:54, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi! I and my friends are not English-speakers. So we have different opinions about this vehicle`s name. Does it mean "a cat from Hell" or "a witch"? Can you answer us? Please! 2A00:1210:2:E1B:F08F:C149:4363:2111 ( talk) 08:30, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
This article is riddled with inaccuracies, inconsistencies and misleading claims. I'm sorry but it does not give a true account of the M18 in either its history or operational use either on the battlefield or within the doctrine of the Tank Destroyer Command. It even implies the Tank Destroyer motto (Seek, Strike, Destroy) was a Buick idea.
A very poorly researched article which in my opinion owes more to schoolboy hyperbole than any true account of the vehicle and its achievements (or lack thereof).
Andy Loates Loates Jr ( talk) 13:31, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
In the History section is says an initial requirement was a torsion bar suspension, then further down (near the end) it says after it ha been used in action the Christie suspension requirement was dropped and replaced with a torsion. So which is it? 81.132.108.246 ( talk) 13:37, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
I have a Hellcat shoulder patch. It seems that the patch was sewn onto a uniform. Which units wore the Hellcat? Gptom1972 ( talk) 21:41, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
This is an American vehicle and its specs shouldn't be primary in metric with an INTENTIONAL attempt to attack non-metric units by using pounds instead of tons when referring to weight. 71.217.221.49 ( talk) 16:19, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
You realize the Americans who used it used metric right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.165.74.196 ( talk) 00:06, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
"Buick engineers developed an innovative Torsion bar suspension that provided a steady ride.[i] The Germans had developed a similar torsion bar suspension for their tanks such as the Tiger as early as at least 1939, though it is unknown if the Buick engineers copied the technology from German tanks captured by the allies in North Africa."
I would say that: The exact origins is undocumented and controversial (for example. various automobiles used forms of torsion bar suspension at the time) but Buick may have introduced the torsion bar suspension into the M18 design process.
The following excerpt from an armor magazine discusses the M18s suspension and its origins, as does Wikipedia's own article.
http://ciar.org/ttk/mbt/armor/armor-magazine/armor-mag.2002.ma/2torsion02.pdf
JDNatWiki ( talk) 10:44, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
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Photo of a Philippine Army M18. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.3.27.206 ( talk) 09:01, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
M18 Hellcat article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
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A very nice start... could easily be bumped up to B-class or higher with just a little format clean-up, and some expansion. LordAmeth 23:56, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry but this introduction reads like something from an Airfix model or a Boys Own' annual:
1) "Buick nicknamed it the Hellcat." Not quite. Buick gave it the company name 'Hellcat' for publicity purposes. The vehicle was known throughout the US Army as the M18, by the troops as a 'TD'.
2) "Hellcat crews took advantage of the vehicle's speed to minimize the enemy's ability to pierce its thin armor." Completely and utterly wrong. The M18 was by far the fastest tracked vehicle on roads. However across country it was no faster then an M4 and often much slower. There are two principle reasons for this. A) The vehicles lighter weight gave it less momentum when being driven through thick hedgerows and other natural obstacles; more often than not it would 'ride over' rather than drive through. A tactical weakness in that it presented the underside of the vehicle to enemy fire far too often. B) Its far lower level of armour protection engendered a feeling of caution in its crews. Most M18 crews drove very slowly and carefully up to the line of battle rather than risk blundering into enemy fire which the vehicles light armour would do little to protect against.
3) "Hellcats were used to penetrate the sides and back of the heavily armored Tiger and Panther tanks used by the Germans." This sentence implies the M18 was designed to do this. In fact poor performance of the 76mm gun/ordnance meant this was often the only way to defeat enemy armour. In other words the tactic of striking from the sides or rear was not a choice but a necessity and not just for the M18 but the M10 and even the M36.
4) "Utilized in the western front and in D-Day, the Hellcat, along with the Sherman Firefly and M10 Wolverine, was the main firepower in the invasion of Europe." The M18 was used in relatively small numbers compared to the M4/Sherman, Cromwell, M10/Wolverine/Achilles, towed 6 pdr/57mm, Towed 17 pdr, plus thousands of 25 pdr, 105mm, 5.5 in, 7.2 in, 155mm and 203 mm tube artillery. This sentence is pretty nonsensical. Loates Jr ( talk) 13:14, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
~~Andy Loates~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Loates Jr ( talk • contribs) 13:11, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
much of what you said is contrary to objective sources and AARs. the hellcats off-road speed was twice that of the Sherman's off-road speed until HVSS equipped Sherman's improved that to little over 2/3rds. exposing the underside of the tank while traversing obstacles due to light weight was not a mode of loss in any AAR, but a theoretical shortcoming (not surprisingly conceived by the m18's many opponents in the general staff). the shortcomings of the 76mm gun was apparent, but not a shortcoming of the vehicle as much as it was the entire US armed forces... it was still capable until the end of the war at defeating armor, albeit with deteriorating effect, as AARs '44 and onward note 71.227.199.53 ( talk) 18:35, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
Which company made these tank destroyers? Syrion 20:54, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Buick was awarded the production contracts in two batches and built them all. - swathdiver —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.173.226.169 ( talk) 07:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Are we seriously using the military channel as a source here? Surely if the statements are true they can be easily sourced to something more reliable. DMorpheus ( talk) 18:33, 19 March 2009 (UTC) The Military Channel is correct in its information, as all of the information they provide on this particular subject coincides with one or more reputable sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyrotechnicman ( talk • contribs) 18:39, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
In the introduction it says that the M18 "was the fastest tracked armored fighting vehicle during the war with a top speed up to 60 mph.", even stating a source for that claim. However, imho this is wrong as the Soviet BT-7 was even faster. Superegge —Preceding undated comment added 16:33, 10 September 2010 (UTC).
OK, am I retarded or what!?
" [...] On December 19–20, the 1st Battalion of the 506th PIR was ordered to support Team Desobry, a battalion-sized tank-infantry task force of the 10th Armored Division (United States) assigned to defend Noville[3] located north-northeast of both Foy and of Bastogne just 4.36 miles (7 km) away. With just four[2] M18 tank destroyers of the 705th Tank Destroyer Battalion to assist, the paratroopers attacked units of the 2nd Panzer Division, whose mission was to proceed by secondary roads via Monaville (just northwest of Bastogne) to seize a key highway and capture, among other objectives, fuel dumps—for the lack of which the overall German counter-offensive faltered and failed. Worried about the threat to its left flank in Bastogne, it organized a major joint arms attack to seize Noville. Team Desobry's high speed highway journey to reach the blocking position is [...] "
The only thing certain about this action is that Jerries and Yankees are involved... and that Yankees rode in some damn fast Buick ... I would be happy to rewrite it, if only I coud figure out who is fu-ing with whom and in what order. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.141.43.127 ( talk) 14:18, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
The introductory paragraphs state that production was started in 1943, but later says we started shipping them (at least, if you read the ambiguous wording a certain way) in 1941:
"When the Americans entered the war in 1941, they began to supply China with armored infantry vehicles, including the M18 Hellcat. "
This needs to be clarified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.33.195.149 ( talk) 18:54, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi! I and my friends are not English-speakers. So we have different opinions about this vehicle`s name. Does it mean "a cat from Hell" or "a witch"? Can you answer us? Please! 2A00:1210:2:E1B:F08F:C149:4363:2111 ( talk) 08:30, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
This article is riddled with inaccuracies, inconsistencies and misleading claims. I'm sorry but it does not give a true account of the M18 in either its history or operational use either on the battlefield or within the doctrine of the Tank Destroyer Command. It even implies the Tank Destroyer motto (Seek, Strike, Destroy) was a Buick idea.
A very poorly researched article which in my opinion owes more to schoolboy hyperbole than any true account of the vehicle and its achievements (or lack thereof).
Andy Loates Loates Jr ( talk) 13:31, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
In the History section is says an initial requirement was a torsion bar suspension, then further down (near the end) it says after it ha been used in action the Christie suspension requirement was dropped and replaced with a torsion. So which is it? 81.132.108.246 ( talk) 13:37, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
I have a Hellcat shoulder patch. It seems that the patch was sewn onto a uniform. Which units wore the Hellcat? Gptom1972 ( talk) 21:41, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
This is an American vehicle and its specs shouldn't be primary in metric with an INTENTIONAL attempt to attack non-metric units by using pounds instead of tons when referring to weight. 71.217.221.49 ( talk) 16:19, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
You realize the Americans who used it used metric right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.165.74.196 ( talk) 00:06, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
"Buick engineers developed an innovative Torsion bar suspension that provided a steady ride.[i] The Germans had developed a similar torsion bar suspension for their tanks such as the Tiger as early as at least 1939, though it is unknown if the Buick engineers copied the technology from German tanks captured by the allies in North Africa."
I would say that: The exact origins is undocumented and controversial (for example. various automobiles used forms of torsion bar suspension at the time) but Buick may have introduced the torsion bar suspension into the M18 design process.
The following excerpt from an armor magazine discusses the M18s suspension and its origins, as does Wikipedia's own article.
http://ciar.org/ttk/mbt/armor/armor-magazine/armor-mag.2002.ma/2torsion02.pdf
JDNatWiki ( talk) 10:44, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on M18 Hellcat. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
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tag to
http://www.nezavisne.com/forum/index.php?topic=2456.0When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:23, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
Photo of a Philippine Army M18. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.3.27.206 ( talk) 09:01, 30 April 2023 (UTC)