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Should macrons be used in the English language spellings of Maori words on English pages or only on truely Maori language pages?
Which is preferred usage?
Your thoughts are invited. -- kiwiinapanic 12:51 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)
In my opinion, macrons should always be used correctly when writing Maori language, or writing about Maori language. There are many words where the length of the vowels makes a difference.
However, where the words are Maori words that have been imported into English, I don't think macrons are always necessary. For example, kowhai should be kōwhai, but when writing about the tree in English, the former is unambiguous. A note on correct Maori spelling and pronunciation on the relevant page would be good in any case. -- carey
I'd like to use them but aren't sure how to type them in. How do you manage to get them to show up on this page for example? Lisiate 00:36 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)
For: Ā ā Ē ē Ī ī Ō ō Ū ū Type: Ā ā Ē ē Ī ī Ō ō Ū ū -- Brion
Cheers for that Lisiate 20:37 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)
The other possibility is to double the vowel, so Maori(macron on the a) becomes Maaori. This is often used and is felt by some to be preferable, it may be a matter of regional variation, among the different iwi.
Ping
I think maybe it's more a variation between different academic institutions. BP
The Reed Dictionary of Māori place names says this in the intro: "The student of Māori, [...] is still left with the problem of correct vowel length. For example, mata may be pronounced as maataa, mataa or mata, depending upon the intended meaning. Double vowels have been used in the past (in Te Kooti, for example), but the placement of a macron is now generally recognised as the best way to indicate a lengthened vowel sound." I would say to use them, as they change pronunciation — and thus, the meaning. We include the accents in French words and such as well. porge 04:32, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC) See also New Zealand Government Web Guidelines porge 23:52, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
I think the variant without a macron, Maori, should be mentioned at the beginning, since it is still widely used. -- Hugh7 04:56, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that the macrons should be used in this article as it is a text on the language, and beginners need to know vowel length etc. Tīmoti Kāretu says in the preface to K.T. Harawira's work Teach yourself Māori that it is “…irresponsible of any text not to indicate vowel length…” This article is essentially a text, so I say yes…include the macrons. BKalesti 17:45, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I heard a Kiwi historian a few days ago, but for some reason, I couldn't catch how she pronounced initial ng, as in Ngai, in Anglicized pronunciation of Maori (even though she said it a dozen times). Because ng, as an initial one, is not part of Canadian English and needs to have an additional vowel attached to it, schwa or /i/, I believe. So it became [@N]. Is that how it's done in New Zealand English too? The rendering of -- Menchi 09:32 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The Ng sound does have an English equivalent: like ng in the word "bang", but obviously dropping the first two letters. The ng sound is just the same as in 'singing', the only difference is that it occurs word-initially. To do that, say "song", then "song-ong-ong-ong..." then re-think that as "-ngo-ngo-ngo-ngo-...", then slow it down till you're saying "Ngo. Ngo...." Likewise "singing" for "ngi". Unfortunately there aren't any English words for the long a sound, but now you've got the idea, it should come easily. -- Hugh7 22:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Hugh is right, but if you come from Northern England it is important to note that the 'ng' sound that he referred to here has no hard 'g' as in the dialects of North England. To answer user Menchi's question, many New Zealand English speakers pronounce 'ng' at the beginning of words as if it were 'n'. Kahuroa 08:21, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
There's a problem with such people as Cockneys (Londoners) too. Typically they don't aspirate the 'ng' in words such as 'sing' at all. It seems to me that it is all in how one holds one's tongue in the roof of the mouth. The correct sound is made with about half of the tongue (from the tip back) lightly pressing the roof of the mouth. The incorrect 'n' sound that Kahuroa describes above is done by just pressing the tip to the roof of the forward (or hard) palate. Lin
Similarly, the other strange letter is written as Wh and pronounced as a slightly aspirated FFFF; very similar to the wh sound as used in Aberdeen and other areas of Scotland where "what's that" is pronounced s "fit's thaat" Until about 20 years ago the maori Wh was usually pronounced by the media as a WWW but in recent years there has been a strong effort to revert to the correct pronounciation.
The other slight variation is the letter RRR. The letter DDD could have been chosen with almost equal accuracy. Often in early writing from New Zealand Keri Keri was written as Kedi Kedi. As with the Ng sound it is an RR sound emerging from the roof of the mouth and the middle of the tongue rather than the tip of the tongue against the front of the hard palate.
One qualification to all this, my experience is limited to Ngapuhi Maori, the dialect spoken by the most populous tribe in the far North of New Zealand. There are some regional variations across the different iwi or tribes.
Hope this helps you,
Ping 10:20 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The article says that "ng" is pronounced as in the English word "singer". That sounds perfectly straightforward to me. Or am I missing something? Are you saying that it's actually not quite the same as the sound in "singer"? -- Oliver P. 10:27 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
To Oliver P, yes, that is what I am saying, it is a single sound, try running the ng of singer together. its, close. Ping 10:44 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
To Menchi, Most Pakeha(non Maori) new Zealanders pronounce maori words exactly the same as if they were speaking English, thus Whanganui comes across as WONGA-NUI although Ngawha is usually rendered as NARFA Ping 10:49 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
There are often three pronunciations (here illustrated with Whangarei):
1. Traditional Pakeha - Wonga-rei.
2. Pakeha attempt (failed) at political correctness - Fonga-rei.
3. Maori (where the initial consonant varies from region to region) - Fa-ngaa-rei or Ha-ngaa-rei or Wa-ngaa-rei.
The 2nd really grates on me. I'd rather people stuck to 1 if they can't manage 3. -BP 30 Oct 2003
Alot of the 'correct' Maori pronounciations that've been come up with are a bit of a red herring. Maori was historically a language like German in that it was very fractured by different dialects with different pronouncations. This notion of there being a single correct way of saying each vowel & word is a product of nationalism, accidemia, and the very small number of remaining speakers of many dialects. Crusadeonilliteracy
Yes and no, you are partly correct but there are certain bondaries in the range of pronounciations. That is why spoken Maori would never sound like German; thus Cook Island Maori still sounds like Maori. My impression is that within New Zealand at least the range of spoken Maori is far narrower than, say, the range of spoken English in England. And yet people still talk about "correct English" ping 06:08, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)~
Several paragraphs are obviously (when one reads them) just the standard Wikipedia "X language" paragraphs telling contributors what sort of material the finished para should contain - see "Examples", for example.
Let's dig out some relevant material to fix it. :
Robin Patterson 22:22, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
As it currently stands, the article claims that "Maori once had a script similar to the Rongorongo script of Easter Island". I have never heard of such a script being used by Maori - could someone please point me towards the source of this claim? (I'm not saying it's wrong, but since it conflicts with what I thought I knew, I'd quite like some confirmation of it). Thanks. -- Vardion 11:41, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Here (slightly edited for heading level) is what I have just concealed inside comment code in the article. Now that it's safely here, I suggest that it be deleted from the article next time someone's editing that. Robin Patterson 01:02, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Description of the sound set of the language. Can include phoneme charts and example words for each phoneme like in French language. If there is significant discussion here, it is probably best to divide the section into vowels and consonants subsections.
Vowel chart and discussion of vowels.
Consonant chart and discussion of consonants (including the "wh" and "ng").
Discussion of some major phonological processes, such as important allophones or assimilation rules.
Description of important sound changes in the history of the language. (Maybe this should go under history?)
Description of the grammar of the language.
This section should contain a discussion of any special features of the vocabulary (or lexicon) of the language, like if it contains a large number of borrowed words (large number of words are borrowed from English, as with all Polynesian languages) or different sets of words for different politeness levels, taboo groups, etc.
The vocab added is somewhat scrappy. I suggest it be alphabetised and divided into sections such as Greetings and other common expressions, Maori words generally understood by non-Maori New Zealanders eg taihoa, pakaru, tikanga, marae, haka ... Maori words commonly featuring in placenames eg roto, wai, motu, maunga, moana, manga, ... roa, iti, nui, poto, pai, kino, rau, ... Maori words commonly used in English by Maori, eg mahi, whakamā, whānau, whāngai, ... Commonly used transliterations -- Hugh7 10:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
As the page history shows, there has been a series of reverts about the exact language in the second paragraph. I argue that "sailed over in canoes" is counter-intuitive. Initially I edited the article, I did not know that Polynesian peoples, especially, actually did sail canoes. I was informed that they did. However, as Ping said, my edit did not change the sense, and I would submit that it is an easier concept to grasp for someone not particularly knowledgeable about NZ/Maori/Polynesian history (i.e. me). Cheers, Smoddy (t) (e) 17:03, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've added L to the listed alphabet, with the caveat that it is only used in Southern Maori.
Grutness|
hello?
05:40, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think L should be listed only as a southern variant of R. Also I'm doubtful that G is distinct from K (where K is the Southern variant of NG: In Southern "kaika", the first K is a K everywhere, but the second is ng in the north. Around Christchurch, they underline the second one. I don't know what they do in Dunedin. We're getting into murky waters of graphemes vs phonemes vs morphemes here. -- Hugh7 22:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Yup - if you look at the edit history you'll see that it was put there "for comment", before being put into the article formally.
Grutness|
hello?
08:22, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Kia ora na, greetings,
Matters of opinion follow: "Tahitian" and "Rarotongan" are common if incorrect descriptions for what is in fact te reo "Maohi" in Tahiti and te reo "Maori" in Rarotonga. Some may also recognise "Maoli" in Hawaii. Referring to Tahitian, Rarotongan and Hawaiian as languages or dialects makes no more sense than describing te reo Maori as "Aotearoan" or "Cook Islandish." Most academics refer to Cook Islands Maori as "Cook Islands Maori" in the same manner as New Zealand Maori in their corner of Polynesia. In other words, describing someone as New Zealand Maori distinguishes them not just from non-Maori New Zealanders, but also their relations in the Pacific, such as Cook Islands Maori. Not sure how exactly this should be submitted but, for future reference, will watch this part of the wiki to see how these suggestions are handled.
Suggestion: In the interests of clarity I would suggest retaining words like Tahitian and Rarotongan. Improve accuracy by referring to Tahitian Maohi and Rarotongan Maori. This may prove more linguistically versatile as it allows for reporting of variants of Maori, Maohi and Maoli as a language of many dialects. For example, Mangaian Maori. Eventually, European speakers will feel comfortable enough with the word Maori to leave off the 'n' - just as many have done already with a now historical 's'
I can be contacted at the address below:
jason brown editor at avaiki dot nu
This paragraph confuses me: "Of all of the existing Polynesian languages, Māori is the only member of the group where compound nouns are formed extensively. Long compound nouns are possible in Māori, but unlike German, compound nouns are not heavily used."
Cheers JackofOz 01:13, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Compounds of more than two nouns are very rare in Māori, so the comparison with German should go. -- Hugh7 03:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
This section really doesn't belong here. It's not about linguistics or even sociolinguistics, just a short opinion piece about the use of te reo. It's hardly surprising that none of the references has an article. Is there an article about NZ mental health where it can go? -- Hugh7 03:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I took it out. I also took out the reference to " diphthongs" because they are just Maori vowel pairs that happen to sound a bit like English diphthongs, such as ei "ay", ai "I" and are no different in Maori from those that don't, such as ua or ui. -- Hugh7 22:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Are you sure you took it out? It still seems to be there. T J McKenzie 00:16, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I have now. Also added the core of Biggs' grammatical structure. I may do something about the phrase later. -- Hugh7 08:19, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
"Kilmog" is given as an example of a word in the southern dialect. It has consecutive consonants ("lm"), which the article says never happens (and I always understood this to be the case). Is this an exception in the southern dialect, or has someone made a mistake? T J McKenzie 00:32, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
The kirimoku explanation makes things a bit clearer, thanks. I think it's still a bit unclear, though, whether "Kilmog" is an Anglicization of the southern Maori pronunciation, or is exactly the southern Maori pronunciation. If it's the latter, there probably should be some mention somewhere of the exception to the no-consecutive-consonants rule. T J McKenzie 07:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
It's the former and the rule is not broken. -- Hugh7 09:23, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
The result of the debate was don't move. — Nightst a llion (?) 09:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Māori language → Maori language – "Māori" may be correct Maori but it's not English. Also, "Māori" will show up as "M□ori" to users without full character capability (see discussions in previous sections above). The title should reflect the English form and the Maori form can be stated in the first sentence. (Copied from the entry on the WP:RM page)
Please sign you comments with ~~~~
As this section was getting very long, and as it relates to New Zealand English rather than to the Māori language, I have created a new article for it: Māori influence on New Zealand English. Kahuroa 02:58, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
I took out the long and erratic list of words. No need for a 'vocabulary' here - there are online dictionaries! Left a few phrases as greetings - not sure if even this is necessary tho. Kahuroa 10:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I have taken out of the History section some references to Māori being related to a Philippine language. My main concern is that there seemed to be some kind of tug of war going on with this section - without explanation an unregistered user removed references to Malay and replaced them with Cebuono - I can't see why particularly. The fact is that it is misleading to talk about Māori as having some kind of special relationship to Malay or Philippine languages anyway - because it is not Māori alone that has those relationships, it is the Polynesian languages generally - not even just the Polynesian languages in fact - the same also goes for Fijian and the Vanuatu languages - in fact all the other Oceanic languages - Māori is only one of hundreds of languages that share very distant relationships with Malay and/or the Philippine languages. There is nothing particularly special or interesting about the relationship of either Malay or the Philippine languages to Polynesian anyway - there is no real reason to single them out for mention. These relationships are better mentioned at higher level pages dealing with the Austronesian and/or Oceanic languages generally where they can be seen in their proper context. Kahuroa 11:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the reference to long vowels being roughly comparative to those of Japanese. I don't think so really - Japanese has an unrounded high back vowel - can anyone think of a better language to compare to? Kahuroa 19:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Mention of the allophone of /a/ that occurs between w and k - like 'o' in NZ English 'not', eg in 'waka'. Kahuroa 00:16, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
The Ministry for Culture and Heritage's nzhistory.net.nz website has a feature relating to Maori Language Week which includes - among other things - a history of the language. I hope it is ok to add this as a new external link - please let me know if it isn't!
thanks Jamie Mackay 22:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the removal of some of the explication of the Māori tap, I hate to contradict User:202.74.203.228, but as a Kiwi who interacts with native Māori speakers daily, has an American partner and spent four months of last year in the States, and used to lecture in phonetics and phonology at Massey University, the removed section is accurate. Fortunately, Wikipedia doesn't rely on anyone's word, but demands sources, so here's one detailing the American tap (pdf, from UCLA) and the Maori tap (also a pdf). There may be some small variation in terms of where it is articulated or the length of articulation, but as a general description this is entirely accurate. I can provide more sources if necessary. Ziggurat 05:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I would be interested to know when the macrons used in maori writing ("ā" for example) were introduced and why - as the article says, Māori was an oral language until the arrival of the Europeans, so the accents cannot have been instrinsically Maori and must have been put there by Europeans. Were they devised by Hnery Williams or someone at that time or are they a more recent development? My recollection is that they didn't pass into common usage until the last decade or so. ElectricRay 20:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, so this is just me being a stupid American, but I can't be the only one. As a person who speaks American English, my impulse is to pronounce the word "mao-ree", but it also looks like it could be "may-o-ree". There is no indication on the page which it is. Could somebody who knows for sure add the IPA pronunciation (and maybe a recording?) to the first paragraph? I'd be forever grateful. Thor Rudebeck 15:51, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
before europeans ame,were there many more languages in nZ.
also,i m sure dialets may exist??? —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
210.9.15.116 (
talk)
13:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC).
Does this belong in an article about the language? or should it be split off? Kahuroa 07:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Forgot to note this in the edit summary, but I moved the Dialect section to below Phonology, where it seems to fit better than after the Grammar section Kahuroa 00:31, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm a little concerned to note that there have been major changes to the dialect section recently which have removed large amounts of information about the southern dialect: what information has remained has been reduced to a footnote, the replacement of r with l has been explained away as merely European mishearing (a "mishearing" which suspiciously seems to become increasingly more common the further south in NZ you get), and relevant facts about such features as apocope has been removed entirely. I hope this isn't another attempt to marginalise Southern Maori, and that the information will soon return to its rightful place in the article... Grutness... wha? 08:30, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
The article currently has Te Reo Māori and Te Reo capitalised like so. I believe it should be te reo Māori and te reo.
For the editor who requires citations about the endangered status of the Māori language: See 2004 press release by Māori Language Commission [3]. The stats are still pretty dire, see [4]. Also, read this 2007 article in the Dominion Post [5] Kahuroa ( talk) 01:44, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
The term 'related to' keeps being targeted by helpful editors who seem to see it as a sloppy use of the passive voice, and replace it with 'resembles' or worse, 'relates to'. In fact 'to be related to' is the correct way to show that languages are well, related; 'relates to' has a different and inappropriate meaning, while changing it to 'resembles' just doesn't cut it, since languages can resemble each other in various ways without necessarily being related at all. Related here means related in a linguistic sense as descendants of a protolanguage; in the case of Māori, Cook Islands Māori and Tahitian, the protolanguage is Tahitic, a subdivision of Eastern Polynesian. Kahuroa ( talk) 21:14, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Although the macron over the "a" may be more accurate or the proper written form for Maori, this is the English language wikipedia and typically accent marks are not included. There is no macron in the American Heritage Dictionary nor any other major English language dictionary. Wikipedia really should follow spellings used in these dictionaries for relatively well-known languages. Azalea pomp ( talk) 16:25, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
I have consulted the source (New Zealand census) and it says that the figures indicate the number of people able to speak each language. That means that second language speakers are also counted. I think that this fact should be indicated, otherwise people tend to believe that the figure shows the number of first language speakers, as I believed until I saw the source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Toni PC ( talk • contribs)
I changed this statement: that Māori arrived "most likely from the Society Islands" since my understanding is that there is no evidence favouring the Society Islands over the Cooks (among other contenders), for instance. Have added a source from Te Ara encyclopedia to that effect (see section The current perspective of the Te Ara article) Kahuroa ( talk) 10:33, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
I went to this page hopeing to find some information about the transformation of Maori from a spoken-only language . The history of the evolution/manipulation of Maori into a written language seems to have been relegated to a lowly importance . —Preceding unsigned comment added by SM527RR ( talk • contribs) 01:42, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
Grutness, re your edits. Do you have a source for the characteristics of Southern Māori, especially for radical changes like the extra vowel schwa - which isn't an instance of apocope, by the way. Lenition probably more like it. How do we distinguish this from the wholesale substitution of English pronunciation and phonotactics, as in a language death situation? Schwa being extremely common in English, but absent from Māori. Any examples apart from placenames? No mention here of schwa. And the final o in Killmog seems identical to English too? Any vowels not found in English? Kahuroa ( talk) 05:17, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
See separate section as above —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.237.33.244 ( talk) 23:24, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
The repression of the Māori language is a notable topic and should be added to the article. Anecdotes abound about Māori children being discipled in the 1960s (for example) for speaking te reo. -- Alan Liefting ( talk) - 01:11, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
The section on vowels says
Yet shortly after, the section Syllables says:
which states pretty clearly that two adjacent vowels can indeed belong to a single syllable.
Can anyone rectify this so that the two sections are consistent?
I'm assuming the issue is that adjacent vowels in Maori are fully pronounced, rather than reduced to a "glide". Prof Wrong ( talk) 19:55, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the reference to English being an official language. The definition provided for an official language excludes the assignment of the label to English in New Zealand. As provided under the section 21 of the 1867 Native Schools Act 1867, I believe English has been an official language in that "no school [was to] recieve any grant unless it [was] shown ... that the English language and the ordinary subjects of primary English education [were] taught". Further, English is the language of the nation-state in New Zealand and is recognised as an official language by many government departments. However, I am unable to find specific legal recognition beyond 1867. -- Te Karere ( talk) 10:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
It is possible that your argument is with Wikipedia's current definition of official language. I do not doubt that English has been an official language of New Zealand per the definition provided for an official language in Wikipedia (that is, "a language that is given a special legal status in a country, state, or other jurisdiction"). As I have indicated, English received legal recognition in 1867, however this Act was repealed in 1891. You may be able to source evidence that English currently has a "special legal status" similar to that provided to the Māori and New Zealand Sign languages. I would agree that the source you offer is 'official' in that it is a media statement made by a government representative. However, media statements in New Zealand, such as those released through beehive.govt.nz, do not constitute law and are, therefore, not evidence of a "special legal status". I am not making an individual observation and consideration as you suggest. Instead, I seek evidence that supports the claim that English has a "special legal status" in New Zealand. I await your response.-- Te Karere ( talk) 10:28, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
Why does this page lead with a linguistic perspective of the language? The New Zealand English page does not have an infobox, let alone a language family section. The closet approximation is one sentence identifying other forms of English that have been influential. Although I believe the linguistic perspective should be retained, I do not believe that linguistics operates more neutrally than any other discipline. I welcome comments.-- Te Karere ( talk) 11:07, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Stress falls within the last four moras – so what if the 4th mora is the 2nd part of a diphthong, as in Wairarapa? Is the stress on the i, or on the wai? — kwami ( talk) 08:27, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Re my edit about the relative relatedness of Rapanui, see [7] which has Eastern Polynesian with two major subdivisions, Rapanui v Central Polynesian which is everything else in Eastern P. 58.28.210.192 ( talk) 08:55, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
The article says "In the extinct South Island dialects"... is this not a bit of a misnomer? There are some mentions of dialectical differences that probably aren't around anymore, but many of the differences in South Island dialects still exist in Māori-speaking communities today (e.g.: replacing 'g' sound with 'k'). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.59.207.79 ( talk) 06:44, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
Maori Tutor
https://archive.org/details/maorienglishtuto00stowiala
Grammar
https://archive.org/details/grammarofnewzeal00maunuoft
https://archive.org/details/grammarofnewzeal00maunrich
Dictionary
https://archive.org/details/dictionaryofnewz00willrich
https://archive.org/details/adictionarynewz01willgoog
https://archive.org/details/maoripolynesian00treggoog
https://archive.org/details/maoripolynesian01treggoog
https://archive.org/details/cu31924026916480
https://archive.org/details/australenglisha00morrgoog
https://archive.org/details/australenglisha01morrgoog
https://archive.org/details/australenglisha02morrgoog
https://archive.org/details/australenglishdi00morruoft
https://archive.org/details/australenglishad27977gut
Text in Maori
https://archive.org/details/kongamoteateamen00grey
Travels in New Zealand
https://archive.org/details/travelsinnewzeal01diefrich
https://archive.org/details/travelsinnewzeal02diefrich
Rajmaan ( talk) 23:24, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
In a recent discussion with several very highly qualified academic Maori speakers it was interesting that they preferred to speak English when discussing any technical or academic topic. They explained that although they were fluent in te Reo that only applied to normal everyday conversation or traditional, ritual use. Maori was a not a good way of communicating clearly in academic arenas as firstly no one outside of a select few would understand and also Maori did not have the range of expressions and technical language of English. In many academic areas research is always conducted in English. "Its simply far easier " was the consensus. In Iraq all higher learning is conducted in English because there are a lack of textbooks in local languages. The same applies to Maori where there are almost no Maori language text books suited to teaching the range of science and maths subjects at secondary level to say nothing of tertiary level. Claudia
The article has plenty of credible sources and great background information, but is limited in terms of language grammar and phonetics. Have the attempts to revitalize the Maori language helped increase the overall fluency of the language? Are the Maori dialects of the North and South islands close enough for them to be mutually intelligible? Jacquelinedy ( talk) 04:17, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
Just removed this recent addition to the intro:
While not wildy wrong, it doesn't read well, especially the second sentence seems an odd way to describe Kōhanga Reo and Kura Kaupapa Māori. Snori ( talk) 10:25, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
English is a de facto official language. The paragraph headed Official status could be understood as stating that NZ is bilingual in Maori and NZ Sign Language. Also, link 15 is broken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.56.70.5 ( talk) 03:03, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
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This article should include something on written literature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.146.20.14 ( talk) 11:48, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
Should there be a section covering important prefixes and suffixes, e.g., the use of Whaka- to indicate an action and -tanga to create a noun from an adjective? Grutness... wha? 23:42, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
The current article text contains:
"In addition to word stress, Māori has phrasal stress that falls on the second to last mora: [1]
In the first phrase in both sentences, I can see that stress is indicated on the second to last mora. But in what seems to be the last phrase in each sentence, stress is indicated on what seem to be the third to last and fourth to last morae, respectively. Does this contradict the stated rule? Or are "o tēnei márae" and "o tēnei rángatira" not considered phrases? (Or) am I missing something (else)? Redav ( talk) 22:13, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
References
The current text includes quite a detailed description and provides examples, which I like.
However, I get confused by the wording in certain instances. While not being a mother-tongue speaker of English myself, I seem to understand there are a few 'translation' issues.
For example, might I suggest that:
"The indefinite article he is usually positioned at the beginning of the phrase in which it is used. The indefinite article is used when the base is used indefinitely or nominally. These phrases can be identified as an indefinite nominal phrase. The article either can be translated to the English ‘a’ or ‘some’, but the number will not be indicated by he. The indefinite article he when used with mass nouns like water and sand will always mean 'some'.[108]"
be changed into:
"The indefinite article he usually comes at the beginning of the phrase in which it is used. It is employed when the base is used indefinitely or nominally. Such phrases can be identified as indefinite nominal phrases. The article he translates as either ‘a’ or ‘some’, but does not indicate number. When used with mass nouns like water and sand, he always means 'some'.[108]",
or something similar? (Here I chose the word "employed" to break a sequence of repeated instances "usually", "used", "used", "used", all with the same stem.)
And might I suggest that:
"The proper article a is used for personal nouns. The personal nouns do not have the definite or indefinite articles on the proper article unless it is an important part of its name. The proper article a always being the phrase with the personal noun.[109]"
be changed into:
"The proper article a is used with personal nouns. After a, personal nouns do not take a definite or indefinite article, unless it is an important part of its name. The proper article a always belongs to / governs a phrase with a personal noun.[109]",
or something similar? (I chose to insert a comma, to help ease reading the sequence "a, personal nouns", since a is easily mistaken for the English indefinite article.) A knowledgeable person with respect to Māori would then have to decide whether "belongs to" or "governs" (or something else) is appropriate; I was not able to understand that from the current wording. Redav ( talk) 10:45, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
Whilst I take the point that non-Māori are increasingly introducing Māori words and phrases into their speech, especially in broadcasting where an entire introductory paragraph might be spoken in te Reo, I would argue that it's still a moderately safe bet, if you hear substantive statements being spoken in te Reo, that the speaker, or the audience, or both, are Māori. Thus I would not consider it to be misleading to summarize te Reo, in the lede sentence, as "the language spoken by Māori people"; nuance on that statement can be introduced later on. Analogously, I would consider it reasonable to describe Latin as "the language spoken by the ancient Romans", even though it continues to be used in contexts which are neither ancient nor Roman.
On the other hand – and it's entirely possible that I'm in a small minority here – to me the phrase "originated among the Māori people" strongly implies something which is not a reasonable description of the situation, namely that te Reo has spread beyond Māoritanga to such an extent that it might be found being spoken by two non-Māori people in a context without reference to Māoritanga or te Ao Māori or New Zealand, so that people might be familiar with the language itself but still need to have its origins explained to them.
Anyway, that's why I reverted the recent change. If my interpretations are idiosyncratic and other people don't see it that way, it wouldn't be the first time.
— VeryRarelyStable 07:17, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
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I will not start an inevitable edit war but will jump straight into the talk page. The section called name states:
The English word comes from the Māori language, where it is spelled Māori. In New Zealand, the Māori language is often referred to as te reo [tɛ ˈɾɛ.ɔ] ('the language'), short for te reo Māori.[9]
This is confusing and ambiguous. Ref 9 relates to the second sentence so is not relevant to the first. To be clearer the first sentence should read
The English word Maori comes from the Māori language, where it is spelled Māori. In NZ (English) the actual Maori word, including the macron, is frequently used in written English as a foreign word.
To me, this is what has/is happening in NZ. Countless articles do not spell it out and cause ambiguity and a lack of clarity. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 20:43, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
It seems there isn’t a standard capitalisation in usage, with ‘te reo’, ‘te reo Māori’, ‘Te reo Māori’ and ‘Te Reo’ all being in use, but I think we should we establish a capitalisation consistency.
My take is that at least when using the two words alone as a proper noun, we should use ‘Te Reo’ (if we treated it as we would other languages, especially English, we might use ‘te Reo’, but I don't think I ever see this in the wild). Spelling as ‘te reo Māori’ appears to be used as a more literal translation of ‘the Māori language’, so that seems reasonable too.
As always, alternative takes are sought. — HTGS ( talk) 21:37, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
Nixinova T C 04:52, 14 April 2022 (UTC)The Māori language may be referred to as 'te reo Māori' or just 'te reo' - 'te reo' is lowercase.
The current article text contains:
"/ŋ/ can come at the beginning of a word (like sing-along without the "si"), which is difficult for English speakers outside of New Zealand to manage."
I wonder to what extent the statement of the second clause is accurate. I cannot say that to me, a speaker of English (though not a mother-tongue speaker) outside of New Zealand, pronouncing /ŋ/ at the beginning of a word (or utterance) is at all difficult to manage. And I have never been surrounded by spoken language that contains such sequences, nor have I ever been in New Zealand. The statement does not seem to be generally true, I am afraid. Redav ( talk) 23:09, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
As a teacher of te reo, it is difficult for the majority of native English speakers to achieve the initial "Ng" without practice. This is especially true for English speakers who grew up outside of communities with te reo usage. I've also observed difficulty from English as second language speakers when their mother tongue also has no initial "Ng". The challenge results from wanting to pronounce the digraph at the same point on the palate as "N" despite the correct point being closer to "K". Pronouncing the digraph "Ng" without pronouncing a "G" can also sometimes be challenging. Eckeall ( talk) 00:20, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
The user-created map at the start of the Te Reo page doesn't have any key explaining what the different shades of blue represent.
It also includes the cook islands, which are usually considered to have a different language, and doesn't include large parts of the south island which contain Māori communities and te reo speakers. Eckeall ( talk) 04:21, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
I'm puzzled as to why this term keeps being removed. In context, I take it to mean that New Zealand Māori is more closely related to Moriori than either is to any other Tahitic language, and therefore "Māori–Moriori" is the name, albeit perhaps an ad hoc name, of a subgroup within the Tahitic languages. Is there scholarship to the contrary now? I especially don't see how, per Maungapohatu's edit summary this afternoon, it would run afoul of the "discredited Moriori myth". As far as I am aware, the "Moriori myth" is the idea that Moriori were a Melanesian people who lived in mainland New Zealand as well as the Chathams before the Māori arrived; the close relationship of the Māori and Moriori languages would surely debunk that idea, not appear to support it. — VeryRarelyStable 03:44, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
the way it was suggested, at least to me, that the two languages grew out of one proto "Maori/Moriori" language when it is accepted that Moriori grew from being isolated from Māori
We have to be very careful when using sources to verify statements of fact, not least because this is a touchy subject. I have just reworded a paragraph that had the below source.
"Roy, Eleanor Ainge (28 July 2018). "Google and Disney join rush to cash in as Māori goes mainstream". The Guardian. Retrieved 28 July 2018. John McCaffery, a language expert at the University of Auckland school of education, says the language is thriving, with other indigenous peoples travelling to New Zealand to learn how Māori has made such a striking comeback. 'It has been really dramatic, the past three years in particular, Māori has gone mainstream,' he said."
This source is being misused. Most of it passes over the personal opinions of other people or has statements that are qualified in some way. The statements of fact in our WP article are therefore primary. The source should probably stay but what it says has to be reworded so as not to make it look as though it is stating facts. Someone reading this would have the impression there are people queueing up at night classes across the country to learn Maori. It is also not balanced: there is no reporting of the anti-Maori promotion brigade that is a sizable minority, as reflected in the previous IP edits, and nor is there any mention of the legislative changes that lie behind this revival. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 03:19, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
Barely a day passes before the spats reappear. Can we do it here please, not on the edit summary tags. I see both sides as valid: in context it could be assumed that not all businesses were making the changes, only those who chose to be part of the trend. Inserting 'some' could be seen as unnecessary and only there to make a point. I did not see anything wrong when I first read the paragraph. However, if taken out of context, it would imply that most, if not all, businesses were making the changes, and people will often read sentences in isolation and out of context. Using 'some' would avoid that implication and it is also factually correct. Another consideration would be how it sounds when read - is it artificial? I think both versions sound equally natural. Although I first thought adding 'some' was unnecessary, I am beginning to lean slightly to its inclusion, if only to be certain there is no misunderstanding. One reader at least, the IP, has read it and seen the need for clarification. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 07:05, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
Hi I’m not an expert but there are no references for the pronunciation of “wh”. Sir Peter Buck in the “The coming of the Māori” (1949) describes the traditional pronunciation as being an aspirated “wh” similar to traditional English pronunciation of “where” (hwere) (p.76) rather than an “f” sound. Also he notes the guttural closure affects the pronunciation of “wh” the West Coast tribes of North Island so “whare” becomes “w’are” (p.79). Also I believe that some older Northland dialects pronounce “wh” differently too but I don’t have a reference for that. 125.237.47.2 ( talk) 21:56, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
... [ɸ], which is usually supposed to be the sole pre-European pronunciationand
... digraph ⟨wh⟩ is pronounced as [ʔw] instead of [f] or [ɸ].. Nixinova T C 22:00, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Should macrons be used in the English language spellings of Maori words on English pages or only on truely Maori language pages?
Which is preferred usage?
Your thoughts are invited. -- kiwiinapanic 12:51 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)
In my opinion, macrons should always be used correctly when writing Maori language, or writing about Maori language. There are many words where the length of the vowels makes a difference.
However, where the words are Maori words that have been imported into English, I don't think macrons are always necessary. For example, kowhai should be kōwhai, but when writing about the tree in English, the former is unambiguous. A note on correct Maori spelling and pronunciation on the relevant page would be good in any case. -- carey
I'd like to use them but aren't sure how to type them in. How do you manage to get them to show up on this page for example? Lisiate 00:36 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)
For: Ā ā Ē ē Ī ī Ō ō Ū ū Type: Ā ā Ē ē Ī ī Ō ō Ū ū -- Brion
Cheers for that Lisiate 20:37 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)
The other possibility is to double the vowel, so Maori(macron on the a) becomes Maaori. This is often used and is felt by some to be preferable, it may be a matter of regional variation, among the different iwi.
Ping
I think maybe it's more a variation between different academic institutions. BP
The Reed Dictionary of Māori place names says this in the intro: "The student of Māori, [...] is still left with the problem of correct vowel length. For example, mata may be pronounced as maataa, mataa or mata, depending upon the intended meaning. Double vowels have been used in the past (in Te Kooti, for example), but the placement of a macron is now generally recognised as the best way to indicate a lengthened vowel sound." I would say to use them, as they change pronunciation — and thus, the meaning. We include the accents in French words and such as well. porge 04:32, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC) See also New Zealand Government Web Guidelines porge 23:52, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
I think the variant without a macron, Maori, should be mentioned at the beginning, since it is still widely used. -- Hugh7 04:56, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that the macrons should be used in this article as it is a text on the language, and beginners need to know vowel length etc. Tīmoti Kāretu says in the preface to K.T. Harawira's work Teach yourself Māori that it is “…irresponsible of any text not to indicate vowel length…” This article is essentially a text, so I say yes…include the macrons. BKalesti 17:45, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I heard a Kiwi historian a few days ago, but for some reason, I couldn't catch how she pronounced initial ng, as in Ngai, in Anglicized pronunciation of Maori (even though she said it a dozen times). Because ng, as an initial one, is not part of Canadian English and needs to have an additional vowel attached to it, schwa or /i/, I believe. So it became [@N]. Is that how it's done in New Zealand English too? The rendering of -- Menchi 09:32 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The Ng sound does have an English equivalent: like ng in the word "bang", but obviously dropping the first two letters. The ng sound is just the same as in 'singing', the only difference is that it occurs word-initially. To do that, say "song", then "song-ong-ong-ong..." then re-think that as "-ngo-ngo-ngo-ngo-...", then slow it down till you're saying "Ngo. Ngo...." Likewise "singing" for "ngi". Unfortunately there aren't any English words for the long a sound, but now you've got the idea, it should come easily. -- Hugh7 22:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Hugh is right, but if you come from Northern England it is important to note that the 'ng' sound that he referred to here has no hard 'g' as in the dialects of North England. To answer user Menchi's question, many New Zealand English speakers pronounce 'ng' at the beginning of words as if it were 'n'. Kahuroa 08:21, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
There's a problem with such people as Cockneys (Londoners) too. Typically they don't aspirate the 'ng' in words such as 'sing' at all. It seems to me that it is all in how one holds one's tongue in the roof of the mouth. The correct sound is made with about half of the tongue (from the tip back) lightly pressing the roof of the mouth. The incorrect 'n' sound that Kahuroa describes above is done by just pressing the tip to the roof of the forward (or hard) palate. Lin
Similarly, the other strange letter is written as Wh and pronounced as a slightly aspirated FFFF; very similar to the wh sound as used in Aberdeen and other areas of Scotland where "what's that" is pronounced s "fit's thaat" Until about 20 years ago the maori Wh was usually pronounced by the media as a WWW but in recent years there has been a strong effort to revert to the correct pronounciation.
The other slight variation is the letter RRR. The letter DDD could have been chosen with almost equal accuracy. Often in early writing from New Zealand Keri Keri was written as Kedi Kedi. As with the Ng sound it is an RR sound emerging from the roof of the mouth and the middle of the tongue rather than the tip of the tongue against the front of the hard palate.
One qualification to all this, my experience is limited to Ngapuhi Maori, the dialect spoken by the most populous tribe in the far North of New Zealand. There are some regional variations across the different iwi or tribes.
Hope this helps you,
Ping 10:20 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The article says that "ng" is pronounced as in the English word "singer". That sounds perfectly straightforward to me. Or am I missing something? Are you saying that it's actually not quite the same as the sound in "singer"? -- Oliver P. 10:27 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
To Oliver P, yes, that is what I am saying, it is a single sound, try running the ng of singer together. its, close. Ping 10:44 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
To Menchi, Most Pakeha(non Maori) new Zealanders pronounce maori words exactly the same as if they were speaking English, thus Whanganui comes across as WONGA-NUI although Ngawha is usually rendered as NARFA Ping 10:49 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
There are often three pronunciations (here illustrated with Whangarei):
1. Traditional Pakeha - Wonga-rei.
2. Pakeha attempt (failed) at political correctness - Fonga-rei.
3. Maori (where the initial consonant varies from region to region) - Fa-ngaa-rei or Ha-ngaa-rei or Wa-ngaa-rei.
The 2nd really grates on me. I'd rather people stuck to 1 if they can't manage 3. -BP 30 Oct 2003
Alot of the 'correct' Maori pronounciations that've been come up with are a bit of a red herring. Maori was historically a language like German in that it was very fractured by different dialects with different pronouncations. This notion of there being a single correct way of saying each vowel & word is a product of nationalism, accidemia, and the very small number of remaining speakers of many dialects. Crusadeonilliteracy
Yes and no, you are partly correct but there are certain bondaries in the range of pronounciations. That is why spoken Maori would never sound like German; thus Cook Island Maori still sounds like Maori. My impression is that within New Zealand at least the range of spoken Maori is far narrower than, say, the range of spoken English in England. And yet people still talk about "correct English" ping 06:08, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)~
Several paragraphs are obviously (when one reads them) just the standard Wikipedia "X language" paragraphs telling contributors what sort of material the finished para should contain - see "Examples", for example.
Let's dig out some relevant material to fix it. :
Robin Patterson 22:22, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
As it currently stands, the article claims that "Maori once had a script similar to the Rongorongo script of Easter Island". I have never heard of such a script being used by Maori - could someone please point me towards the source of this claim? (I'm not saying it's wrong, but since it conflicts with what I thought I knew, I'd quite like some confirmation of it). Thanks. -- Vardion 11:41, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Here (slightly edited for heading level) is what I have just concealed inside comment code in the article. Now that it's safely here, I suggest that it be deleted from the article next time someone's editing that. Robin Patterson 01:02, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Description of the sound set of the language. Can include phoneme charts and example words for each phoneme like in French language. If there is significant discussion here, it is probably best to divide the section into vowels and consonants subsections.
Vowel chart and discussion of vowels.
Consonant chart and discussion of consonants (including the "wh" and "ng").
Discussion of some major phonological processes, such as important allophones or assimilation rules.
Description of important sound changes in the history of the language. (Maybe this should go under history?)
Description of the grammar of the language.
This section should contain a discussion of any special features of the vocabulary (or lexicon) of the language, like if it contains a large number of borrowed words (large number of words are borrowed from English, as with all Polynesian languages) or different sets of words for different politeness levels, taboo groups, etc.
The vocab added is somewhat scrappy. I suggest it be alphabetised and divided into sections such as Greetings and other common expressions, Maori words generally understood by non-Maori New Zealanders eg taihoa, pakaru, tikanga, marae, haka ... Maori words commonly featuring in placenames eg roto, wai, motu, maunga, moana, manga, ... roa, iti, nui, poto, pai, kino, rau, ... Maori words commonly used in English by Maori, eg mahi, whakamā, whānau, whāngai, ... Commonly used transliterations -- Hugh7 10:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
As the page history shows, there has been a series of reverts about the exact language in the second paragraph. I argue that "sailed over in canoes" is counter-intuitive. Initially I edited the article, I did not know that Polynesian peoples, especially, actually did sail canoes. I was informed that they did. However, as Ping said, my edit did not change the sense, and I would submit that it is an easier concept to grasp for someone not particularly knowledgeable about NZ/Maori/Polynesian history (i.e. me). Cheers, Smoddy (t) (e) 17:03, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've added L to the listed alphabet, with the caveat that it is only used in Southern Maori.
Grutness|
hello?
05:40, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think L should be listed only as a southern variant of R. Also I'm doubtful that G is distinct from K (where K is the Southern variant of NG: In Southern "kaika", the first K is a K everywhere, but the second is ng in the north. Around Christchurch, they underline the second one. I don't know what they do in Dunedin. We're getting into murky waters of graphemes vs phonemes vs morphemes here. -- Hugh7 22:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Yup - if you look at the edit history you'll see that it was put there "for comment", before being put into the article formally.
Grutness|
hello?
08:22, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Kia ora na, greetings,
Matters of opinion follow: "Tahitian" and "Rarotongan" are common if incorrect descriptions for what is in fact te reo "Maohi" in Tahiti and te reo "Maori" in Rarotonga. Some may also recognise "Maoli" in Hawaii. Referring to Tahitian, Rarotongan and Hawaiian as languages or dialects makes no more sense than describing te reo Maori as "Aotearoan" or "Cook Islandish." Most academics refer to Cook Islands Maori as "Cook Islands Maori" in the same manner as New Zealand Maori in their corner of Polynesia. In other words, describing someone as New Zealand Maori distinguishes them not just from non-Maori New Zealanders, but also their relations in the Pacific, such as Cook Islands Maori. Not sure how exactly this should be submitted but, for future reference, will watch this part of the wiki to see how these suggestions are handled.
Suggestion: In the interests of clarity I would suggest retaining words like Tahitian and Rarotongan. Improve accuracy by referring to Tahitian Maohi and Rarotongan Maori. This may prove more linguistically versatile as it allows for reporting of variants of Maori, Maohi and Maoli as a language of many dialects. For example, Mangaian Maori. Eventually, European speakers will feel comfortable enough with the word Maori to leave off the 'n' - just as many have done already with a now historical 's'
I can be contacted at the address below:
jason brown editor at avaiki dot nu
This paragraph confuses me: "Of all of the existing Polynesian languages, Māori is the only member of the group where compound nouns are formed extensively. Long compound nouns are possible in Māori, but unlike German, compound nouns are not heavily used."
Cheers JackofOz 01:13, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Compounds of more than two nouns are very rare in Māori, so the comparison with German should go. -- Hugh7 03:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
This section really doesn't belong here. It's not about linguistics or even sociolinguistics, just a short opinion piece about the use of te reo. It's hardly surprising that none of the references has an article. Is there an article about NZ mental health where it can go? -- Hugh7 03:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I took it out. I also took out the reference to " diphthongs" because they are just Maori vowel pairs that happen to sound a bit like English diphthongs, such as ei "ay", ai "I" and are no different in Maori from those that don't, such as ua or ui. -- Hugh7 22:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Are you sure you took it out? It still seems to be there. T J McKenzie 00:16, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I have now. Also added the core of Biggs' grammatical structure. I may do something about the phrase later. -- Hugh7 08:19, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
"Kilmog" is given as an example of a word in the southern dialect. It has consecutive consonants ("lm"), which the article says never happens (and I always understood this to be the case). Is this an exception in the southern dialect, or has someone made a mistake? T J McKenzie 00:32, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
The kirimoku explanation makes things a bit clearer, thanks. I think it's still a bit unclear, though, whether "Kilmog" is an Anglicization of the southern Maori pronunciation, or is exactly the southern Maori pronunciation. If it's the latter, there probably should be some mention somewhere of the exception to the no-consecutive-consonants rule. T J McKenzie 07:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
It's the former and the rule is not broken. -- Hugh7 09:23, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
The result of the debate was don't move. — Nightst a llion (?) 09:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Māori language → Maori language – "Māori" may be correct Maori but it's not English. Also, "Māori" will show up as "M□ori" to users without full character capability (see discussions in previous sections above). The title should reflect the English form and the Maori form can be stated in the first sentence. (Copied from the entry on the WP:RM page)
Please sign you comments with ~~~~
As this section was getting very long, and as it relates to New Zealand English rather than to the Māori language, I have created a new article for it: Māori influence on New Zealand English. Kahuroa 02:58, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
I took out the long and erratic list of words. No need for a 'vocabulary' here - there are online dictionaries! Left a few phrases as greetings - not sure if even this is necessary tho. Kahuroa 10:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I have taken out of the History section some references to Māori being related to a Philippine language. My main concern is that there seemed to be some kind of tug of war going on with this section - without explanation an unregistered user removed references to Malay and replaced them with Cebuono - I can't see why particularly. The fact is that it is misleading to talk about Māori as having some kind of special relationship to Malay or Philippine languages anyway - because it is not Māori alone that has those relationships, it is the Polynesian languages generally - not even just the Polynesian languages in fact - the same also goes for Fijian and the Vanuatu languages - in fact all the other Oceanic languages - Māori is only one of hundreds of languages that share very distant relationships with Malay and/or the Philippine languages. There is nothing particularly special or interesting about the relationship of either Malay or the Philippine languages to Polynesian anyway - there is no real reason to single them out for mention. These relationships are better mentioned at higher level pages dealing with the Austronesian and/or Oceanic languages generally where they can be seen in their proper context. Kahuroa 11:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the reference to long vowels being roughly comparative to those of Japanese. I don't think so really - Japanese has an unrounded high back vowel - can anyone think of a better language to compare to? Kahuroa 19:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Mention of the allophone of /a/ that occurs between w and k - like 'o' in NZ English 'not', eg in 'waka'. Kahuroa 00:16, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
The Ministry for Culture and Heritage's nzhistory.net.nz website has a feature relating to Maori Language Week which includes - among other things - a history of the language. I hope it is ok to add this as a new external link - please let me know if it isn't!
thanks Jamie Mackay 22:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the removal of some of the explication of the Māori tap, I hate to contradict User:202.74.203.228, but as a Kiwi who interacts with native Māori speakers daily, has an American partner and spent four months of last year in the States, and used to lecture in phonetics and phonology at Massey University, the removed section is accurate. Fortunately, Wikipedia doesn't rely on anyone's word, but demands sources, so here's one detailing the American tap (pdf, from UCLA) and the Maori tap (also a pdf). There may be some small variation in terms of where it is articulated or the length of articulation, but as a general description this is entirely accurate. I can provide more sources if necessary. Ziggurat 05:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I would be interested to know when the macrons used in maori writing ("ā" for example) were introduced and why - as the article says, Māori was an oral language until the arrival of the Europeans, so the accents cannot have been instrinsically Maori and must have been put there by Europeans. Were they devised by Hnery Williams or someone at that time or are they a more recent development? My recollection is that they didn't pass into common usage until the last decade or so. ElectricRay 20:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, so this is just me being a stupid American, but I can't be the only one. As a person who speaks American English, my impulse is to pronounce the word "mao-ree", but it also looks like it could be "may-o-ree". There is no indication on the page which it is. Could somebody who knows for sure add the IPA pronunciation (and maybe a recording?) to the first paragraph? I'd be forever grateful. Thor Rudebeck 15:51, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
before europeans ame,were there many more languages in nZ.
also,i m sure dialets may exist??? —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
210.9.15.116 (
talk)
13:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC).
Does this belong in an article about the language? or should it be split off? Kahuroa 07:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Forgot to note this in the edit summary, but I moved the Dialect section to below Phonology, where it seems to fit better than after the Grammar section Kahuroa 00:31, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm a little concerned to note that there have been major changes to the dialect section recently which have removed large amounts of information about the southern dialect: what information has remained has been reduced to a footnote, the replacement of r with l has been explained away as merely European mishearing (a "mishearing" which suspiciously seems to become increasingly more common the further south in NZ you get), and relevant facts about such features as apocope has been removed entirely. I hope this isn't another attempt to marginalise Southern Maori, and that the information will soon return to its rightful place in the article... Grutness... wha? 08:30, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
The article currently has Te Reo Māori and Te Reo capitalised like so. I believe it should be te reo Māori and te reo.
For the editor who requires citations about the endangered status of the Māori language: See 2004 press release by Māori Language Commission [3]. The stats are still pretty dire, see [4]. Also, read this 2007 article in the Dominion Post [5] Kahuroa ( talk) 01:44, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
The term 'related to' keeps being targeted by helpful editors who seem to see it as a sloppy use of the passive voice, and replace it with 'resembles' or worse, 'relates to'. In fact 'to be related to' is the correct way to show that languages are well, related; 'relates to' has a different and inappropriate meaning, while changing it to 'resembles' just doesn't cut it, since languages can resemble each other in various ways without necessarily being related at all. Related here means related in a linguistic sense as descendants of a protolanguage; in the case of Māori, Cook Islands Māori and Tahitian, the protolanguage is Tahitic, a subdivision of Eastern Polynesian. Kahuroa ( talk) 21:14, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Although the macron over the "a" may be more accurate or the proper written form for Maori, this is the English language wikipedia and typically accent marks are not included. There is no macron in the American Heritage Dictionary nor any other major English language dictionary. Wikipedia really should follow spellings used in these dictionaries for relatively well-known languages. Azalea pomp ( talk) 16:25, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
I have consulted the source (New Zealand census) and it says that the figures indicate the number of people able to speak each language. That means that second language speakers are also counted. I think that this fact should be indicated, otherwise people tend to believe that the figure shows the number of first language speakers, as I believed until I saw the source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Toni PC ( talk • contribs)
I changed this statement: that Māori arrived "most likely from the Society Islands" since my understanding is that there is no evidence favouring the Society Islands over the Cooks (among other contenders), for instance. Have added a source from Te Ara encyclopedia to that effect (see section The current perspective of the Te Ara article) Kahuroa ( talk) 10:33, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
I went to this page hopeing to find some information about the transformation of Maori from a spoken-only language . The history of the evolution/manipulation of Maori into a written language seems to have been relegated to a lowly importance . —Preceding unsigned comment added by SM527RR ( talk • contribs) 01:42, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
Grutness, re your edits. Do you have a source for the characteristics of Southern Māori, especially for radical changes like the extra vowel schwa - which isn't an instance of apocope, by the way. Lenition probably more like it. How do we distinguish this from the wholesale substitution of English pronunciation and phonotactics, as in a language death situation? Schwa being extremely common in English, but absent from Māori. Any examples apart from placenames? No mention here of schwa. And the final o in Killmog seems identical to English too? Any vowels not found in English? Kahuroa ( talk) 05:17, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
See separate section as above —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.237.33.244 ( talk) 23:24, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
The repression of the Māori language is a notable topic and should be added to the article. Anecdotes abound about Māori children being discipled in the 1960s (for example) for speaking te reo. -- Alan Liefting ( talk) - 01:11, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
The section on vowels says
Yet shortly after, the section Syllables says:
which states pretty clearly that two adjacent vowels can indeed belong to a single syllable.
Can anyone rectify this so that the two sections are consistent?
I'm assuming the issue is that adjacent vowels in Maori are fully pronounced, rather than reduced to a "glide". Prof Wrong ( talk) 19:55, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the reference to English being an official language. The definition provided for an official language excludes the assignment of the label to English in New Zealand. As provided under the section 21 of the 1867 Native Schools Act 1867, I believe English has been an official language in that "no school [was to] recieve any grant unless it [was] shown ... that the English language and the ordinary subjects of primary English education [were] taught". Further, English is the language of the nation-state in New Zealand and is recognised as an official language by many government departments. However, I am unable to find specific legal recognition beyond 1867. -- Te Karere ( talk) 10:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
It is possible that your argument is with Wikipedia's current definition of official language. I do not doubt that English has been an official language of New Zealand per the definition provided for an official language in Wikipedia (that is, "a language that is given a special legal status in a country, state, or other jurisdiction"). As I have indicated, English received legal recognition in 1867, however this Act was repealed in 1891. You may be able to source evidence that English currently has a "special legal status" similar to that provided to the Māori and New Zealand Sign languages. I would agree that the source you offer is 'official' in that it is a media statement made by a government representative. However, media statements in New Zealand, such as those released through beehive.govt.nz, do not constitute law and are, therefore, not evidence of a "special legal status". I am not making an individual observation and consideration as you suggest. Instead, I seek evidence that supports the claim that English has a "special legal status" in New Zealand. I await your response.-- Te Karere ( talk) 10:28, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
Why does this page lead with a linguistic perspective of the language? The New Zealand English page does not have an infobox, let alone a language family section. The closet approximation is one sentence identifying other forms of English that have been influential. Although I believe the linguistic perspective should be retained, I do not believe that linguistics operates more neutrally than any other discipline. I welcome comments.-- Te Karere ( talk) 11:07, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Stress falls within the last four moras – so what if the 4th mora is the 2nd part of a diphthong, as in Wairarapa? Is the stress on the i, or on the wai? — kwami ( talk) 08:27, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Re my edit about the relative relatedness of Rapanui, see [7] which has Eastern Polynesian with two major subdivisions, Rapanui v Central Polynesian which is everything else in Eastern P. 58.28.210.192 ( talk) 08:55, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
The article says "In the extinct South Island dialects"... is this not a bit of a misnomer? There are some mentions of dialectical differences that probably aren't around anymore, but many of the differences in South Island dialects still exist in Māori-speaking communities today (e.g.: replacing 'g' sound with 'k'). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.59.207.79 ( talk) 06:44, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
Maori Tutor
https://archive.org/details/maorienglishtuto00stowiala
Grammar
https://archive.org/details/grammarofnewzeal00maunuoft
https://archive.org/details/grammarofnewzeal00maunrich
Dictionary
https://archive.org/details/dictionaryofnewz00willrich
https://archive.org/details/adictionarynewz01willgoog
https://archive.org/details/maoripolynesian00treggoog
https://archive.org/details/maoripolynesian01treggoog
https://archive.org/details/cu31924026916480
https://archive.org/details/australenglisha00morrgoog
https://archive.org/details/australenglisha01morrgoog
https://archive.org/details/australenglisha02morrgoog
https://archive.org/details/australenglishdi00morruoft
https://archive.org/details/australenglishad27977gut
Text in Maori
https://archive.org/details/kongamoteateamen00grey
Travels in New Zealand
https://archive.org/details/travelsinnewzeal01diefrich
https://archive.org/details/travelsinnewzeal02diefrich
Rajmaan ( talk) 23:24, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
In a recent discussion with several very highly qualified academic Maori speakers it was interesting that they preferred to speak English when discussing any technical or academic topic. They explained that although they were fluent in te Reo that only applied to normal everyday conversation or traditional, ritual use. Maori was a not a good way of communicating clearly in academic arenas as firstly no one outside of a select few would understand and also Maori did not have the range of expressions and technical language of English. In many academic areas research is always conducted in English. "Its simply far easier " was the consensus. In Iraq all higher learning is conducted in English because there are a lack of textbooks in local languages. The same applies to Maori where there are almost no Maori language text books suited to teaching the range of science and maths subjects at secondary level to say nothing of tertiary level. Claudia
The article has plenty of credible sources and great background information, but is limited in terms of language grammar and phonetics. Have the attempts to revitalize the Maori language helped increase the overall fluency of the language? Are the Maori dialects of the North and South islands close enough for them to be mutually intelligible? Jacquelinedy ( talk) 04:17, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
Just removed this recent addition to the intro:
While not wildy wrong, it doesn't read well, especially the second sentence seems an odd way to describe Kōhanga Reo and Kura Kaupapa Māori. Snori ( talk) 10:25, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
English is a de facto official language. The paragraph headed Official status could be understood as stating that NZ is bilingual in Maori and NZ Sign Language. Also, link 15 is broken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.56.70.5 ( talk) 03:03, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
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This article should include something on written literature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.146.20.14 ( talk) 11:48, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
Should there be a section covering important prefixes and suffixes, e.g., the use of Whaka- to indicate an action and -tanga to create a noun from an adjective? Grutness... wha? 23:42, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
The current article text contains:
"In addition to word stress, Māori has phrasal stress that falls on the second to last mora: [1]
In the first phrase in both sentences, I can see that stress is indicated on the second to last mora. But in what seems to be the last phrase in each sentence, stress is indicated on what seem to be the third to last and fourth to last morae, respectively. Does this contradict the stated rule? Or are "o tēnei márae" and "o tēnei rángatira" not considered phrases? (Or) am I missing something (else)? Redav ( talk) 22:13, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
References
The current text includes quite a detailed description and provides examples, which I like.
However, I get confused by the wording in certain instances. While not being a mother-tongue speaker of English myself, I seem to understand there are a few 'translation' issues.
For example, might I suggest that:
"The indefinite article he is usually positioned at the beginning of the phrase in which it is used. The indefinite article is used when the base is used indefinitely or nominally. These phrases can be identified as an indefinite nominal phrase. The article either can be translated to the English ‘a’ or ‘some’, but the number will not be indicated by he. The indefinite article he when used with mass nouns like water and sand will always mean 'some'.[108]"
be changed into:
"The indefinite article he usually comes at the beginning of the phrase in which it is used. It is employed when the base is used indefinitely or nominally. Such phrases can be identified as indefinite nominal phrases. The article he translates as either ‘a’ or ‘some’, but does not indicate number. When used with mass nouns like water and sand, he always means 'some'.[108]",
or something similar? (Here I chose the word "employed" to break a sequence of repeated instances "usually", "used", "used", "used", all with the same stem.)
And might I suggest that:
"The proper article a is used for personal nouns. The personal nouns do not have the definite or indefinite articles on the proper article unless it is an important part of its name. The proper article a always being the phrase with the personal noun.[109]"
be changed into:
"The proper article a is used with personal nouns. After a, personal nouns do not take a definite or indefinite article, unless it is an important part of its name. The proper article a always belongs to / governs a phrase with a personal noun.[109]",
or something similar? (I chose to insert a comma, to help ease reading the sequence "a, personal nouns", since a is easily mistaken for the English indefinite article.) A knowledgeable person with respect to Māori would then have to decide whether "belongs to" or "governs" (or something else) is appropriate; I was not able to understand that from the current wording. Redav ( talk) 10:45, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
Whilst I take the point that non-Māori are increasingly introducing Māori words and phrases into their speech, especially in broadcasting where an entire introductory paragraph might be spoken in te Reo, I would argue that it's still a moderately safe bet, if you hear substantive statements being spoken in te Reo, that the speaker, or the audience, or both, are Māori. Thus I would not consider it to be misleading to summarize te Reo, in the lede sentence, as "the language spoken by Māori people"; nuance on that statement can be introduced later on. Analogously, I would consider it reasonable to describe Latin as "the language spoken by the ancient Romans", even though it continues to be used in contexts which are neither ancient nor Roman.
On the other hand – and it's entirely possible that I'm in a small minority here – to me the phrase "originated among the Māori people" strongly implies something which is not a reasonable description of the situation, namely that te Reo has spread beyond Māoritanga to such an extent that it might be found being spoken by two non-Māori people in a context without reference to Māoritanga or te Ao Māori or New Zealand, so that people might be familiar with the language itself but still need to have its origins explained to them.
Anyway, that's why I reverted the recent change. If my interpretations are idiosyncratic and other people don't see it that way, it wouldn't be the first time.
— VeryRarelyStable 07:17, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
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I will not start an inevitable edit war but will jump straight into the talk page. The section called name states:
The English word comes from the Māori language, where it is spelled Māori. In New Zealand, the Māori language is often referred to as te reo [tɛ ˈɾɛ.ɔ] ('the language'), short for te reo Māori.[9]
This is confusing and ambiguous. Ref 9 relates to the second sentence so is not relevant to the first. To be clearer the first sentence should read
The English word Maori comes from the Māori language, where it is spelled Māori. In NZ (English) the actual Maori word, including the macron, is frequently used in written English as a foreign word.
To me, this is what has/is happening in NZ. Countless articles do not spell it out and cause ambiguity and a lack of clarity. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 20:43, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
It seems there isn’t a standard capitalisation in usage, with ‘te reo’, ‘te reo Māori’, ‘Te reo Māori’ and ‘Te Reo’ all being in use, but I think we should we establish a capitalisation consistency.
My take is that at least when using the two words alone as a proper noun, we should use ‘Te Reo’ (if we treated it as we would other languages, especially English, we might use ‘te Reo’, but I don't think I ever see this in the wild). Spelling as ‘te reo Māori’ appears to be used as a more literal translation of ‘the Māori language’, so that seems reasonable too.
As always, alternative takes are sought. — HTGS ( talk) 21:37, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
Nixinova T C 04:52, 14 April 2022 (UTC)The Māori language may be referred to as 'te reo Māori' or just 'te reo' - 'te reo' is lowercase.
The current article text contains:
"/ŋ/ can come at the beginning of a word (like sing-along without the "si"), which is difficult for English speakers outside of New Zealand to manage."
I wonder to what extent the statement of the second clause is accurate. I cannot say that to me, a speaker of English (though not a mother-tongue speaker) outside of New Zealand, pronouncing /ŋ/ at the beginning of a word (or utterance) is at all difficult to manage. And I have never been surrounded by spoken language that contains such sequences, nor have I ever been in New Zealand. The statement does not seem to be generally true, I am afraid. Redav ( talk) 23:09, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
As a teacher of te reo, it is difficult for the majority of native English speakers to achieve the initial "Ng" without practice. This is especially true for English speakers who grew up outside of communities with te reo usage. I've also observed difficulty from English as second language speakers when their mother tongue also has no initial "Ng". The challenge results from wanting to pronounce the digraph at the same point on the palate as "N" despite the correct point being closer to "K". Pronouncing the digraph "Ng" without pronouncing a "G" can also sometimes be challenging. Eckeall ( talk) 00:20, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
The user-created map at the start of the Te Reo page doesn't have any key explaining what the different shades of blue represent.
It also includes the cook islands, which are usually considered to have a different language, and doesn't include large parts of the south island which contain Māori communities and te reo speakers. Eckeall ( talk) 04:21, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
I'm puzzled as to why this term keeps being removed. In context, I take it to mean that New Zealand Māori is more closely related to Moriori than either is to any other Tahitic language, and therefore "Māori–Moriori" is the name, albeit perhaps an ad hoc name, of a subgroup within the Tahitic languages. Is there scholarship to the contrary now? I especially don't see how, per Maungapohatu's edit summary this afternoon, it would run afoul of the "discredited Moriori myth". As far as I am aware, the "Moriori myth" is the idea that Moriori were a Melanesian people who lived in mainland New Zealand as well as the Chathams before the Māori arrived; the close relationship of the Māori and Moriori languages would surely debunk that idea, not appear to support it. — VeryRarelyStable 03:44, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
the way it was suggested, at least to me, that the two languages grew out of one proto "Maori/Moriori" language when it is accepted that Moriori grew from being isolated from Māori
We have to be very careful when using sources to verify statements of fact, not least because this is a touchy subject. I have just reworded a paragraph that had the below source.
"Roy, Eleanor Ainge (28 July 2018). "Google and Disney join rush to cash in as Māori goes mainstream". The Guardian. Retrieved 28 July 2018. John McCaffery, a language expert at the University of Auckland school of education, says the language is thriving, with other indigenous peoples travelling to New Zealand to learn how Māori has made such a striking comeback. 'It has been really dramatic, the past three years in particular, Māori has gone mainstream,' he said."
This source is being misused. Most of it passes over the personal opinions of other people or has statements that are qualified in some way. The statements of fact in our WP article are therefore primary. The source should probably stay but what it says has to be reworded so as not to make it look as though it is stating facts. Someone reading this would have the impression there are people queueing up at night classes across the country to learn Maori. It is also not balanced: there is no reporting of the anti-Maori promotion brigade that is a sizable minority, as reflected in the previous IP edits, and nor is there any mention of the legislative changes that lie behind this revival. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 03:19, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
Barely a day passes before the spats reappear. Can we do it here please, not on the edit summary tags. I see both sides as valid: in context it could be assumed that not all businesses were making the changes, only those who chose to be part of the trend. Inserting 'some' could be seen as unnecessary and only there to make a point. I did not see anything wrong when I first read the paragraph. However, if taken out of context, it would imply that most, if not all, businesses were making the changes, and people will often read sentences in isolation and out of context. Using 'some' would avoid that implication and it is also factually correct. Another consideration would be how it sounds when read - is it artificial? I think both versions sound equally natural. Although I first thought adding 'some' was unnecessary, I am beginning to lean slightly to its inclusion, if only to be certain there is no misunderstanding. One reader at least, the IP, has read it and seen the need for clarification. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 07:05, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
Hi I’m not an expert but there are no references for the pronunciation of “wh”. Sir Peter Buck in the “The coming of the Māori” (1949) describes the traditional pronunciation as being an aspirated “wh” similar to traditional English pronunciation of “where” (hwere) (p.76) rather than an “f” sound. Also he notes the guttural closure affects the pronunciation of “wh” the West Coast tribes of North Island so “whare” becomes “w’are” (p.79). Also I believe that some older Northland dialects pronounce “wh” differently too but I don’t have a reference for that. 125.237.47.2 ( talk) 21:56, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
... [ɸ], which is usually supposed to be the sole pre-European pronunciationand
... digraph ⟨wh⟩ is pronounced as [ʔw] instead of [f] or [ɸ].. Nixinova T C 22:00, 13 December 2022 (UTC)