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![]() | Māori King Movement was the New Zealand collaboration from 30 July, to 13 August 2006. For details on how the article improved, see the NZC history |
Te atairangikaahu married Whatumoana Paki in 1952 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 125.236.44.41 ( talk • contribs) on 15 May 2006
"It is a hereditary role, the succession occurs through the primogeniture mechanism. The current Māori Queen, Te Atairangi Kaahu, is of the line of the first Māori King, Potatau Te Wherowhero and was elected in 1966."->Being a hereditary role, how can there be an election? It is an assumption of power. -- Midnight tonight 04:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC) EDITED: that was all me, not an anon followed by me. -- Midnight tonight 08:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't suppose anyone knows which "Lord Derby" the text refers to? I've made a guess but since there is not exact date there is at least one other possibility. - SimonLyall 10:49, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
This article makes use of several non-English terms. These ought either to be defined or else English language equivalents used. --
Aaron Walden
12:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I guess the article be updated to include the suggestions that have appeared in the NZ Herald that the other iwi are largely just 'rubber-stamping' the selection by Tainui Nil Einne 01:30, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I would suggest a pic and explanation of Te Paki o Matariki be added to this site. As well as the royal flags. --unsigned comment by User:Nzbboy 28 August 2006.
Somebody had labelled every monarch herein as "NAME I, Māori King." However, it is incorrect to do so. A monarch can only become NAME I after there has been a NAME II. For example: Queen Elizabeth I of England was known simply as "Queen Elizabeth" until HM Queen Elizabeth II became Queen. William I, Henry I, Edward I (who should've strictly been Edward III), Richard I, George I all had "I" added after there has been a William II, Henry II, Edward II, etc. Hence why King Stephen, King John and Queen Victoria are styled without an "I" numeral, because there is only one of each.
This system of retrospective "I" enumeration is not just a British system, but is the system around the world and would thus, if used correctly, apply to the Māori kings. There can not be a Koroki I if there has been no Koroki II. --unsigned comment by 84.71.12.146 (talk) at 01:55, 18 October 2007
Currently the lead states:
My understanding was that not all iwi actually participated in the formation of the Kingitanga, in fact a lot of the southern rangatira were opposed to it (see NZ History). Ngaphui and Ngati Pourou never joined.
This is a highly dubious claim. Firstly, the Kingitanga is a non-constitutional role. There was never any claim to being a "internal Sovereign partner" to the Monarch. In fact the position of Maori King was meant to compliment the British Monarch. (see NZ History & [1]).
Again, this is highly dubious. Perhaps this was the case in the 1850s, but simply isn't true today.
More dubious claims - ref statements by other North Island iwi at the NZ Herald.
Again, this claim is dubious although probably accurate. It needs to be cited. -- Lholden ( talk) 05:08, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
Excellent, exactly what was needed. Kahuroa ( talk) 06:45, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
Attention has been drawn to an anomally in the tile of Maori King. According to 1 editor it is "well known" that he is not the Maori king but this would be news to many kiwis .Mr Rankin is highlighting an important issue to do with tribal independence and that the Kingitanga is only held in respect as long as the monarch behaves themselves.There have been various issues raised in the media about the king's actions,his demeanor,his spending ,his friends and his son,which do not sit well with many conservative Maori.One person is saying what many are feeling.To call The king the "King of Huntly" is insulting and that is not included in the article for that reason but Rankin has raised an important constitional issue that deserves a bit of space.Claudia june 2011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.237.39.170 ( talk) 05:06, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
The 3 mentioned tribes make up a majority of Maori in nz in terms of total population(both in 1860s and now)-Nga Puhi alone is "probably" as big as all the other iwi put together. The 3 iwi are all extremely well known ,with great mana.If you have not heard of them then that is your problem! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.237.36.158 ( talk) 09:11, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
I am wondering if there should be a new article created for the state or confederacy ruled over by the Maori monarchs and allied chiefs. It seems like from the time the confederacy was formed in around 1858 until 1881, when the Kingitanga Movement finally left its isolation and finally made peace with and opened up to the settler government, the Kingitanga functioned as an independent state.
From what I understand, the Kingitanga held power over a substantial portion of North Island, originally centered in the Waikato Region. Then the settler government under Governor Grey interpreted their existence as a threat to British sovereignty and justified attacking them and initiating the Land Wars in the Waikato based on a claim that Ngati Maniapoto warriors helping other tribes fighting settlers in Taranaki Region were Kingitanga agents. After brutal fighting, the Kingitanga government occupied Ngati Maniapoto territory and became a neutral player throughout the rest of the Land Wars although remained independent from and at war with the Colonial Government until they opened up the King Country in 1881. Afterwards, they progressively integrated with the rest of New Zealand over several decades, beginning with rail projects several years after peace was established although the Tainui chiefs and Maori king directly ruled the territory and didn't suffer land confiscations like other regions which allowed for a higher-than-average Maori population to exist there even to the present day. Based on this background, do you think it is reasonable to create a new article for a state with this information included or that it should be included only here in the Maori King Movement article or both or neither? Nanib ( talk) 00:06, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
The following are relevant articles on nzhistory.net.nz, a New Zealand government history resource that is a wealth of information for New Zealand and even other Polynesian histories:
http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/maori-king-movement-1860-94/build-up-to-war http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/maori-king-movement-1860-94/response-to-war http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/the-maori-king-movement-1860-94/raupatu-confiscations http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/maori-king-movement-1860-94/maintaining-te-kingitanga http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/the-maori-king-movement-1860-94/tensions-ease
Your account of this aspect of NZ history is seriously flawed although here and there you touch on a correct fact. The key to the mystery of the Kingitanga is the invasion of Taranaki by Waikato iwi during the long and brutal Musket Wars. The Taranaki tribes suffered savage treatment from Waikato which dislocated the various communities. Taranaki tribes saw the treaty as a method of trying to claw back some of the land and the mana that they lost during those times. Waikato seized on opportunities to increase their power or mana not only over Taranaki but over the Government as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk) 01:17, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
SymonLyall has made this revert [2] on the grounds that reference to "an expression of Māori unity" is "a little fluffy". I'm open to guidance here and welcome discussion on this, but I think that unless the Kingitanga movement is essentially an historic phenomenon, the emphasis in the opening sentence should be on the present, not the past. The wording I inserted is drawn from NZHistory Online and I think encapsulates what it is; that initial statement is preferable to an immediate explanation of why it arose. My understanding, from what I've read, is also that the Maori King is essentially a Tainui institution; if that's the case, is it not important to identify that fact immediately as well? (SimonLyall also removed that from the opening statement).
I'm slowly working my way through this article to improve what was pretty shabby and vague coverage. All suggestions are welcome, but as someone living in Australia and thus slightly removed from whatever routine coverage there is of the Maori King (despite my strong interest in colonial-era NZ history), it seems to me that the article in its newly amended form clouds rather than sharpens understanding of what the function of the King is.
This may, in large part, come back to the issue of the title of the article, "Maori King Movement", which tends to place an emphasis on the past (as in the establishment of the "movement") rather than the present. That in itself may need addressing, with the article possibly better renamed "Maori King" and clearly explaining who and what the King is and then the origin of the institution. Any comments and response would be very welcome. BlackCab ( talk) 13:20, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
For our Aussie friend.Last month the king was too sick to attend a hui and his son attended and spoke in his place. This point was mentioned,with a photo of the son, in the Waikato Times which gives reasonable coverage of Kingitanga events.I would agree with discussions above that the Movement part is largely historical. There is no longer any "movement" in the sense that the Kingitanga is trying to expand or develop its role.Having said that the King himself has or had some grandiose ideas of his power to spend money as he saw fit.The Times covered this spat about 2 years ago. The Kingitanga tries to keep its internal ructions under wraps. They are mainly squabbles about influence, authority, access to spending money, accountability, warring personalities etc. The infighting is mainly between the King the governing body and the separate business body. The business arm of Tainui is separated from the king.Of late -since about 2006(?) the business arm has done very well -mainly on the back of the massive development of the old air force base gifted to Tainui about 1992 into a huge modern shopping complex"The Base". The next (current) big project of Tainui is to develop what is called an inland port on land also gifted to Tainui in 1992 on the other side of the city near the University.The tribe has successfully had zoning restrictions changed from residential to industry. This port will be a transhipment zone for mainly container goods.The iwi has had good cooperation from the Hamilton City Council in this development- they have helped them through the red tape. The port is likely to start about 2014-15 and development continue for many years.The area is enormous. There is a rail link close at hand. A new multi lane highway passes very close to the new port. No doubt the king who plays no direct roll at all, will get(be given?) a new car to celebrate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk) 22:20, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
I removed "Prime agricultural" as this is a very poor description of the Waikato in 1863. There was only a very small area of developed land that could be called Prime-the small area around Te Awamutu that had been developed with plants and technology from the CMS missionaries and included at least 1 flour mill. This constitutes about 2% of the Waikato at the most. There were small isolated pockets or gardens such as those near modern Hamilton city. These were man made soils for growing kumara in Kirikiriroa which had a very small population-about 70 all told just before the war. Some of these have been rediscovered just recently and cover an area about as big as a normal urban section, very close to the Waikato museum. Most of the Waikato was very swampy and still is to some extent. Waikato was an unproductive farming backwater until the mid 1920s and only really became prime agricultural land from the 1950s. There were a lot of natural obstacles such as the Waikato River, thousands of small streams and deep gullies that all needed bridging. The only common tree the Kahikatea -initially used for bridges is very prone to rot. The high rainfall in winter turned the Waikato into a quagmire over winter-early photos show carts up to their axles in deep mud. Of course for Maori the swamps and creeks did provide eels. There were lots of native ducks on the lakes. The figures for food provided from the Waikato to Auckland in 1854-about the time of peak Maori production, show that only a tiny amount of food came from the Waikato-literally 4 canoes of potatoes in the first half of 1854. The vast bulk of food came from Maori in Auckland itself or on the modern North Shore(Ngati Whatua) but mainly from Waiheke Island(Ngati Paoa) and the Thames(Ngati Maru) area. After the 1863-64 war most of the soldiers (mostly Australian ) who were given free land, walked off after taking a look at their new swamps and lakes"land". The population of Hamilton dropped from a peak of about 900(mainly military) in 1865 and did not reach 1000 again until 1901. It took mass application of modern technology and a huge input of labour to turn the Waikato into prime dairy land. Even today the wider term "agricultural " would be a bit sweeping as probably 95% of the lowland farms are dairy only with low hill country farms to the West being mainly sheep with some beef. Today there are only a tiny number of orchards or other specialized land use -a few flowers grown indoors, bee hives,race horse breeding around Cambridge. Many of the steep hills are exactly as they were in 1863 covered in native bush. Most are reserves. Hence just "land". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk) 02:33, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Thankyou in anticipation of the quotes and contexts. Not "prime"land then? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk) 22:37, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the quotes.So -NOT "Prime" NOR "Agricultural"! It is quite clear from this that all seem to be using the same original source without perhaps any real investigation. Cowan, who knew the Waikato refers only to the Rangiaowhia area which is very small. The delta referred to at Horotiu is also a very small area. There are plenty of farming text books that say the whole of the south Waikato area was infertile due to the lack of critical trace elements such as cobalt in the volcanic soil-only solved in 1937 by a visiting Australian scientist. It is notable that the Rangiowhia area had that appearance because of the important influence of missionaries and some early Pakeha settlers who helped introduce the European plants(and animals) described. I would take Ranganui Walker's words with a grain of salt (a BIG grain.) I know him and his partial attitudes beliefs well. The Oliver quote smacks of gross generalization and seems to be just parroting Cowan's words. It is interesting that the actual food statistics do not support any of this generalizing. The very detailed figure for food supply to Auckland, by Maori,in the mid 1850s show that the vast majority came from the Auckland's isthmus and what we would call the North Shore today,Ngati Paoa"s Waiheke Island and Ngati Maru's land by Thames. The 3,500 in the whole Waikato is a tiny number given that a lot of Maori food came from lakes swamp etc. Hamilton's (Kirikiriroa) Maori population just before the war of 1863 was about 70 people total by count. The only references I can find to actual crops are peaches being grown by Pukete Pa and the very small area of potatoes and kumara being grown by the present Waikato Museum on a small river terrace. "Burial sites" is a pretty blunt "semantic hammer". In pre European times Maori buried bones all over the place so any land could have bones on it. Just yesterday a bunch of Maori bones were found in the sand hills of Taranaki near New Plymouth I think. Bones of truly important men of man were always uplifted and taken with an iwi or hapu when they moved. If the bones were left behind they were of people of no importance. This happens even in modern times -there has been a lot of anger expressed about Hone Heke's bones being taken by his whanau and reburied just last year. I wonder why so much land was given back to Waikato about 6 months after it was confiscated? If the land was so fertile why did so many farmers around Hamilton just walk of it in 1868 and go back to Australia? Why did Ngati Haua ,specifically Wiremu Tamiha's son(who was still actively involved with the Kingtanga) so willingly lease and the sell vast areas of swamp to Morrin and Firth in the East Waikato in 1870? Would they sell off prime agricultural land? If the land was so critical to Waikato why did they continue to sell off enormous chunks in the 1900-1912 period? To me there is a big disconnect between the generalizations and the reality. Even today there is a huge peat dome swamp south of Ngatea that is unusable for farming-an area of 200 square km! I suggest a statement along the lines that settlers were deluded in thinking of the whole Waikato as being fertile as only very tiny areas such as ---- were used for Maori crops and this European style farming development only started in the 1840s again in very limited area. Then a statement about how Maori did use the natural resources of the land and swamp land and a bit about how they created man made soils to grow isolated pockets of Kumara. Then a statement about changing Waikato Maori attitudes to land that allowed those even at the heart of the kingitanga to justify selling off their remaining land. If you just say "fertile land" that gives a totally erroneous idea of what the land was like.One final point- the "fertility" of the Waikato soils today is only due to the liberal use of superphospate (mainly from Nauru Island up till the 1980s)and lime on the land. What do you think?Claudia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk) 23:51, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
I am not satisfied that this edit [3] by 122.62.226.243 claiming Tāwhiao "used his influence to withdraw all the money for the trip from the newly set up Maori bank. When depositers found all the money gone they burnt down the bank" should remain in the article. The source material, which is far from adequately cited, paints quite a different picture. Stuart Park's article in the New Zealand Journal of History at this site quotes from the Australian Insurance and Banking Record (21 June 1916); this states that the deputation to London was led by (or comprised only) bank directors Aperahama Te Rei and Hone Te Parikou (to whom it refers as "Abraham the Jewel" and "John Slippery Fish" respectively. There is no mention of King Tawhiao; nor does it even seem to correlate with the 1882 deputation to London by a group of northern chiefs described by Ranginui Walker (Struggle Without End, pg 160.)
Park observes: "The tone of this (AIBR) article is very negative, typical of much Pakeha writing about Maori of the later nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Much of the content might well be factual, like the description of grievances over Treaty issues, although the names given to the chiefs appear so strange as to be quite unlikely. No contemporary Maori sources examined record such names." He concludes that the report has "dubious reliability" and reflects the "supercilious, patronising attitude" of earlier press articles on the bank.
In any case, this is the first and only reference in the Wikipedia article to the Maori bank. It seems mischievous to introduce it with a highly suspect article written in a clearly patronising and insulting manner that assumes, on thin evidence, that it was referring to the 1884 deputation to London led by Tawhiao. I'll try to find the second sloppily cited source provided, "King Potatau. Pei Te Hurinui Jones. p 230-231" and see if it is any clearer. BlackCab ( talk) 05:00, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for replying so promptly. I had not had time to read all the Park comments,which are fairly lengthy, until today as Ive been busy at work . I dont know who he or she is or how reliable their comments are-I have never heard of them. Perhaps you know of them? Park does seem to make some points and that's one reason why I suggested the abbreviated "6 point" plan version(or something along those lines) which leaves out any reference to any or all money being borrowed. Ive done a bit more reading and it seems that some money was paid directly by one iwi and "maybe" some came from the Maori bank. However there is still the Q about even if the Maori bank existed in 1884. What do you think of the 6 points above? Maybe suggest your own version?Ill try and find that Tainui book if I have time tomorrow- its a while since I looked at it. Looks like a nice day in Melbourne today. I lived in Toorak many years ago -it was always nice there. Claudia.
Had a look for the book yesterday but the library systems were down so I'll have to wait a few days until they have their new system up.It seems from Parks information that the Kingitangi went to some considerable trouble to produce their own bank notes but maybe never actually used them -they may have just stuck with normal NZ currency . The comments about Maori not understanding the concept of percentage interest was revealing . This would suggest that it would have been difficult to sustain a banking system for long mainly due to poor understanding of basic principles as well as economics in general. Claudia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk) 00:02, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Gadfium for in help in tracking down Potatau. As you say there does seem to be some difference between different editions. When I have time I'll see what I can find.It finally seems that the source of Tawhaio's finance for the extended trip is revealed. In the latter period in the late 1880s and into the 1890s it seems it was fairly common practice for Waikato Kingitanga Maori to be levied a tax to support Kingitanga operations. I know Te Puea reinstated that tax in alater paeriod and it was commonly known as the whitebait tax in the Waikato. Perhaps the origins of this is in Tawhiao's fund raising efforts. By shear chance I was given a historical document yesterday that shows , far from the visit to Britain being secret, the Kingitanga party was accompanied by a village brass band from near Pirongia(Alexandra in those days) half way to the railway station at Te Awamutu, where another village brass band took over for the rest of the journey.Claudia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk) 20:57, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
A few details have been included as there is such a huge public interest in NZ in this topic. The issue is ongoing and has been featured in the main stream media for over a week. It highlights certain aspects of the Kingites. On line polls show huge and continuing interest. Information has been supported by refs. Information has been gathered by the media from face book and video before going public. Maori in particular are outraged at the special treatment being given to the son because the connection to his father. As it is now a crisis for the king it is doubly important to have information that can easily be accessed. Clearly this is the most important event that has happened to the king in a long time. Stuff Nz had so many comments they had to close down the comments server before it crashed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk)
Since the discussion began the event has become much bigger due to the ongoing very serious revelations about the son. So the previous "consensus"re just one event, is largely irrelevant. To say it has no impact is complete,utter nonsense! The king himself used the word crisis. All the Tainui marae are now being consulted. Many Maori (as well as Pakeha) are outraged. Blackcab's comments are tantamount to attempted censorship which I will not stand for. How does he know it will have no lasting impact??There has been plenty of very critical comment but I left it out for brevity's sake. Claudia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk) 09:59, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
The heading for this section is "The King's Son". This alone makes it notable and very different from some unknown teen. Im not sure what you mean by "wild theories". Can you point out the "wild theories" in any of the edits? All the information is direct from the Waikato Times and supported by refs from there. After the court case it emerged that despite attempts by the QC to portray the incidents as limited and perhaps insignificant this kind of behaviour is not new to Korotangi. The influence of the Maori king rests not on judicial or legal influence- it is totally by reputation. The king's reputation is tainted by his son's actions which in the last 2 years have included drunk driving ,breach or parole,theft, burglary,being thrown out of his rugby team for bad behaviour ,making racist comments on face book,using Mongrol Mob gang greetings and signs,using obscene language and behaving like an arrogant turkey in a video that is now public. The online polls,the talk back, the joke about Korotangi in the editorial page pf the Waikato Times simply tells us that this is of great public concern and interest. Maori women are particularly concerned about these attitudes of Korotangi and how our young Tainui men will perceive them. The polls were not used to reference any of the factual material in the article.
The only people quoted in the media have been A. The Maori King. B Tuku Morgan.C. The QC D. The judge. Are you saying that none of these people know what they are talking about? The reporter who wrote the first article was in court. You did not say which part of the newspaper article was wrong -please do so!!. As per the article this teen is in line to be the next king -this was the argument used by the QC to stop him being convicted. A consensus is not two editors!!! even if Stuart things so-especially when considering attempted possible "censorship". There is a big difference between the son of an MP and the son of a king. Firstly the MP has a position of influence by law and the king does not. Secondly the son of an MP did not get off because he was possibly going to inherit his father's role. In other words, as indicated previously, the King's mana or authority rests solely on his reputation-if his reputation is effected by his son's actions then that is serious not just for the king, or his son, but for the kingite movement.
Thankyou gadfium for your efforts which are a shining light of hope. I am very disappointed that other editors have not even attempted to answer my various points. In my academic world we have very time for individuals who don't respect others who produce information contrary to their own beliefs. In medieval times they chopped off the heads of folks who produced new, contrary facts-now they ban them from Wiki! Sorry that the discussion is now on various pages-my time is too valuable to answer on other pages as well.
Can we have a discussion or input from other editors who are not partial? At least one of the editors commenting is notorious for knee jerk "sounding off" going back many years. I note the use of a term above(3) that is rather disgusting and totally unnecessary. I want to see reasoned arguments not bad language and blather. Kia Ora Claudia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk) 23:50, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
I've just added "main article" links for each monarch. In general I think that there needs only be a paragraph or two on each in this article. Certainly no comment the drama around KP should be here - but it may be perfectly appropriate on Tuheitia Paki's page. Snori ( talk) 08:38, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
The use of the word is well explained in the text ie that Maniapoto and Rewi Maniapoto were the extreme edge of the militant wing of the kingitanga compared to say the king himself or Ngati Haua's William Thompson, who both had more passive viewpoints. Gorst, who lived in the area and attended many of the meetings is very instructive on the very heated conflict within the various kingitanga factions. 115.188.178.77 ( talk) 00:42, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
I don't agree at all. Hardliner would be accurate if you are talking about someone who has "hard" conservative or firm ideas but it does not convey the idea that he was prepared to use violence, as Rewi repeatedly did. He was behind the attempted "assassination" of Grey and he constantly argued for the use of militancy and violence against Europeans in general as well as the the government. He was the source of the instructions to kidnap the wives and children of settlers in the Waikato. It was Rewi who riled up the Maori Catholics by claiming all protestants were in the pay of the government. It was W Kingi and Rewi who led the attack and burning down the Te Awamutu trade school and stealing the press. It was Rewi who argued with the king and W Thompson about attack the British. Rewi was clever -he realised that once he attacked Auckland the moderates would have to follow suit out of loyalty and because the British would not(or could not) distinguish between extreme militants or moderate militants -if they were attacking the army or settlers they would be shot. It was mainly Rewi's men who launched the initial attack on Auckland, along with locals who acted as guides. They killed random settlers who had not left, stole cattle etc but were surprisingly (a surprise to both sides)defeated at the battle of East Pukekohe Church. After this Ngati Haua and other joined the Auckland attacks so the "moderates" did not remain so -they joined in the general violence. All these acts show that Rewi had hard line ideas in the sense he was uncompromising but extremist or militant are better and more accurate terms to describe what he did rather than what he thought. If Sinclair used the term in this instance he was right.
All very ironic really given that after the collapse of the King country Kingitanga "nation" and their formal surrender, Rewi became the leading member of the Gov Grey fan club who even wished to be buried alongside Grey! 115.188.178.77 ( talk) 08:18, 18 January 2016 (UTC) I've restored the original quote removed by the unknown editor.This is what Sinclair actually wrote, he didnt write "hardliners". You cant just wily nilly change historian's work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.188.178.77 ( talk) 04:53, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
In view of what actually happened in Auckland, Sinclair's use of the word "extremists " is most apt. I'm sure if this happened in today's world the rebels who killed the unarmed settlers would be called terrorists. The kidnapping of settlers' wives and children , mass theft of property (mainly in Taranaki), targeting of government property ( courts,schools) is not a million miles from more recent terrorist acts in the Middle East. If anything, Sinclair's choice of words was rather constrained . 115.188.178.77 ( talk) 20:27, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
You have totally distorted what O'Malley wrote! What he did say was that most historians, like Sinclair, supported the "extremist" view. Only 3 had opposing -one of whom is not even an historian but works in media. At least one of the "anti" brigade is himself an "extremist" who regularly promulgates separatist views. It is very clear that Rewi was an extremist compared to nearly all of the other key Maori leaders, especially Wiremu Thompson. It is important to look at Rewi's personality to see why he held such views and why he acted in certain ways. Importantly why did other chiefs eg Wiremu Kingi and other hapu find it easy to persuade Rewi to take part in violent acts -often seemingly against his best interest? 115.188.178.77 ( talk) 11:02, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Yes he said it was a minority view.If he had looked into the background of the few who had that view he would have seen the low calibre ofeven these few. One of them is a close associate of Tuki "underpants" Morgan. Enough said!!!!
The capitalisation of 'Movement' in the article title seems incorrect, unless 'Māori King Movement' is a proper name. In the List of social movements, 'movement' is not generally capitalised when it is not part of an organisation's name. Te Ara uses 'Māori King movement'. [5] NZHistory is inconsistent but mostly uses 'Māori King movement'. [6] Should we move the article to Māori King movement? Thoughts? Nurg ( talk) 05:41, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
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![]() | Māori King Movement was the New Zealand collaboration from 30 July, to 13 August 2006. For details on how the article improved, see the NZC history |
Te atairangikaahu married Whatumoana Paki in 1952 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 125.236.44.41 ( talk • contribs) on 15 May 2006
"It is a hereditary role, the succession occurs through the primogeniture mechanism. The current Māori Queen, Te Atairangi Kaahu, is of the line of the first Māori King, Potatau Te Wherowhero and was elected in 1966."->Being a hereditary role, how can there be an election? It is an assumption of power. -- Midnight tonight 04:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC) EDITED: that was all me, not an anon followed by me. -- Midnight tonight 08:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't suppose anyone knows which "Lord Derby" the text refers to? I've made a guess but since there is not exact date there is at least one other possibility. - SimonLyall 10:49, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
This article makes use of several non-English terms. These ought either to be defined or else English language equivalents used. --
Aaron Walden
12:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I guess the article be updated to include the suggestions that have appeared in the NZ Herald that the other iwi are largely just 'rubber-stamping' the selection by Tainui Nil Einne 01:30, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I would suggest a pic and explanation of Te Paki o Matariki be added to this site. As well as the royal flags. --unsigned comment by User:Nzbboy 28 August 2006.
Somebody had labelled every monarch herein as "NAME I, Māori King." However, it is incorrect to do so. A monarch can only become NAME I after there has been a NAME II. For example: Queen Elizabeth I of England was known simply as "Queen Elizabeth" until HM Queen Elizabeth II became Queen. William I, Henry I, Edward I (who should've strictly been Edward III), Richard I, George I all had "I" added after there has been a William II, Henry II, Edward II, etc. Hence why King Stephen, King John and Queen Victoria are styled without an "I" numeral, because there is only one of each.
This system of retrospective "I" enumeration is not just a British system, but is the system around the world and would thus, if used correctly, apply to the Māori kings. There can not be a Koroki I if there has been no Koroki II. --unsigned comment by 84.71.12.146 (talk) at 01:55, 18 October 2007
Currently the lead states:
My understanding was that not all iwi actually participated in the formation of the Kingitanga, in fact a lot of the southern rangatira were opposed to it (see NZ History). Ngaphui and Ngati Pourou never joined.
This is a highly dubious claim. Firstly, the Kingitanga is a non-constitutional role. There was never any claim to being a "internal Sovereign partner" to the Monarch. In fact the position of Maori King was meant to compliment the British Monarch. (see NZ History & [1]).
Again, this is highly dubious. Perhaps this was the case in the 1850s, but simply isn't true today.
More dubious claims - ref statements by other North Island iwi at the NZ Herald.
Again, this claim is dubious although probably accurate. It needs to be cited. -- Lholden ( talk) 05:08, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
Excellent, exactly what was needed. Kahuroa ( talk) 06:45, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
Attention has been drawn to an anomally in the tile of Maori King. According to 1 editor it is "well known" that he is not the Maori king but this would be news to many kiwis .Mr Rankin is highlighting an important issue to do with tribal independence and that the Kingitanga is only held in respect as long as the monarch behaves themselves.There have been various issues raised in the media about the king's actions,his demeanor,his spending ,his friends and his son,which do not sit well with many conservative Maori.One person is saying what many are feeling.To call The king the "King of Huntly" is insulting and that is not included in the article for that reason but Rankin has raised an important constitional issue that deserves a bit of space.Claudia june 2011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.237.39.170 ( talk) 05:06, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
The 3 mentioned tribes make up a majority of Maori in nz in terms of total population(both in 1860s and now)-Nga Puhi alone is "probably" as big as all the other iwi put together. The 3 iwi are all extremely well known ,with great mana.If you have not heard of them then that is your problem! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.237.36.158 ( talk) 09:11, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
I am wondering if there should be a new article created for the state or confederacy ruled over by the Maori monarchs and allied chiefs. It seems like from the time the confederacy was formed in around 1858 until 1881, when the Kingitanga Movement finally left its isolation and finally made peace with and opened up to the settler government, the Kingitanga functioned as an independent state.
From what I understand, the Kingitanga held power over a substantial portion of North Island, originally centered in the Waikato Region. Then the settler government under Governor Grey interpreted their existence as a threat to British sovereignty and justified attacking them and initiating the Land Wars in the Waikato based on a claim that Ngati Maniapoto warriors helping other tribes fighting settlers in Taranaki Region were Kingitanga agents. After brutal fighting, the Kingitanga government occupied Ngati Maniapoto territory and became a neutral player throughout the rest of the Land Wars although remained independent from and at war with the Colonial Government until they opened up the King Country in 1881. Afterwards, they progressively integrated with the rest of New Zealand over several decades, beginning with rail projects several years after peace was established although the Tainui chiefs and Maori king directly ruled the territory and didn't suffer land confiscations like other regions which allowed for a higher-than-average Maori population to exist there even to the present day. Based on this background, do you think it is reasonable to create a new article for a state with this information included or that it should be included only here in the Maori King Movement article or both or neither? Nanib ( talk) 00:06, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
The following are relevant articles on nzhistory.net.nz, a New Zealand government history resource that is a wealth of information for New Zealand and even other Polynesian histories:
http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/maori-king-movement-1860-94/build-up-to-war http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/maori-king-movement-1860-94/response-to-war http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/the-maori-king-movement-1860-94/raupatu-confiscations http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/maori-king-movement-1860-94/maintaining-te-kingitanga http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/the-maori-king-movement-1860-94/tensions-ease
Your account of this aspect of NZ history is seriously flawed although here and there you touch on a correct fact. The key to the mystery of the Kingitanga is the invasion of Taranaki by Waikato iwi during the long and brutal Musket Wars. The Taranaki tribes suffered savage treatment from Waikato which dislocated the various communities. Taranaki tribes saw the treaty as a method of trying to claw back some of the land and the mana that they lost during those times. Waikato seized on opportunities to increase their power or mana not only over Taranaki but over the Government as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk) 01:17, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
SymonLyall has made this revert [2] on the grounds that reference to "an expression of Māori unity" is "a little fluffy". I'm open to guidance here and welcome discussion on this, but I think that unless the Kingitanga movement is essentially an historic phenomenon, the emphasis in the opening sentence should be on the present, not the past. The wording I inserted is drawn from NZHistory Online and I think encapsulates what it is; that initial statement is preferable to an immediate explanation of why it arose. My understanding, from what I've read, is also that the Maori King is essentially a Tainui institution; if that's the case, is it not important to identify that fact immediately as well? (SimonLyall also removed that from the opening statement).
I'm slowly working my way through this article to improve what was pretty shabby and vague coverage. All suggestions are welcome, but as someone living in Australia and thus slightly removed from whatever routine coverage there is of the Maori King (despite my strong interest in colonial-era NZ history), it seems to me that the article in its newly amended form clouds rather than sharpens understanding of what the function of the King is.
This may, in large part, come back to the issue of the title of the article, "Maori King Movement", which tends to place an emphasis on the past (as in the establishment of the "movement") rather than the present. That in itself may need addressing, with the article possibly better renamed "Maori King" and clearly explaining who and what the King is and then the origin of the institution. Any comments and response would be very welcome. BlackCab ( talk) 13:20, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
For our Aussie friend.Last month the king was too sick to attend a hui and his son attended and spoke in his place. This point was mentioned,with a photo of the son, in the Waikato Times which gives reasonable coverage of Kingitanga events.I would agree with discussions above that the Movement part is largely historical. There is no longer any "movement" in the sense that the Kingitanga is trying to expand or develop its role.Having said that the King himself has or had some grandiose ideas of his power to spend money as he saw fit.The Times covered this spat about 2 years ago. The Kingitanga tries to keep its internal ructions under wraps. They are mainly squabbles about influence, authority, access to spending money, accountability, warring personalities etc. The infighting is mainly between the King the governing body and the separate business body. The business arm of Tainui is separated from the king.Of late -since about 2006(?) the business arm has done very well -mainly on the back of the massive development of the old air force base gifted to Tainui about 1992 into a huge modern shopping complex"The Base". The next (current) big project of Tainui is to develop what is called an inland port on land also gifted to Tainui in 1992 on the other side of the city near the University.The tribe has successfully had zoning restrictions changed from residential to industry. This port will be a transhipment zone for mainly container goods.The iwi has had good cooperation from the Hamilton City Council in this development- they have helped them through the red tape. The port is likely to start about 2014-15 and development continue for many years.The area is enormous. There is a rail link close at hand. A new multi lane highway passes very close to the new port. No doubt the king who plays no direct roll at all, will get(be given?) a new car to celebrate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk) 22:20, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
I removed "Prime agricultural" as this is a very poor description of the Waikato in 1863. There was only a very small area of developed land that could be called Prime-the small area around Te Awamutu that had been developed with plants and technology from the CMS missionaries and included at least 1 flour mill. This constitutes about 2% of the Waikato at the most. There were small isolated pockets or gardens such as those near modern Hamilton city. These were man made soils for growing kumara in Kirikiriroa which had a very small population-about 70 all told just before the war. Some of these have been rediscovered just recently and cover an area about as big as a normal urban section, very close to the Waikato museum. Most of the Waikato was very swampy and still is to some extent. Waikato was an unproductive farming backwater until the mid 1920s and only really became prime agricultural land from the 1950s. There were a lot of natural obstacles such as the Waikato River, thousands of small streams and deep gullies that all needed bridging. The only common tree the Kahikatea -initially used for bridges is very prone to rot. The high rainfall in winter turned the Waikato into a quagmire over winter-early photos show carts up to their axles in deep mud. Of course for Maori the swamps and creeks did provide eels. There were lots of native ducks on the lakes. The figures for food provided from the Waikato to Auckland in 1854-about the time of peak Maori production, show that only a tiny amount of food came from the Waikato-literally 4 canoes of potatoes in the first half of 1854. The vast bulk of food came from Maori in Auckland itself or on the modern North Shore(Ngati Whatua) but mainly from Waiheke Island(Ngati Paoa) and the Thames(Ngati Maru) area. After the 1863-64 war most of the soldiers (mostly Australian ) who were given free land, walked off after taking a look at their new swamps and lakes"land". The population of Hamilton dropped from a peak of about 900(mainly military) in 1865 and did not reach 1000 again until 1901. It took mass application of modern technology and a huge input of labour to turn the Waikato into prime dairy land. Even today the wider term "agricultural " would be a bit sweeping as probably 95% of the lowland farms are dairy only with low hill country farms to the West being mainly sheep with some beef. Today there are only a tiny number of orchards or other specialized land use -a few flowers grown indoors, bee hives,race horse breeding around Cambridge. Many of the steep hills are exactly as they were in 1863 covered in native bush. Most are reserves. Hence just "land". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk) 02:33, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Thankyou in anticipation of the quotes and contexts. Not "prime"land then? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk) 22:37, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the quotes.So -NOT "Prime" NOR "Agricultural"! It is quite clear from this that all seem to be using the same original source without perhaps any real investigation. Cowan, who knew the Waikato refers only to the Rangiaowhia area which is very small. The delta referred to at Horotiu is also a very small area. There are plenty of farming text books that say the whole of the south Waikato area was infertile due to the lack of critical trace elements such as cobalt in the volcanic soil-only solved in 1937 by a visiting Australian scientist. It is notable that the Rangiowhia area had that appearance because of the important influence of missionaries and some early Pakeha settlers who helped introduce the European plants(and animals) described. I would take Ranganui Walker's words with a grain of salt (a BIG grain.) I know him and his partial attitudes beliefs well. The Oliver quote smacks of gross generalization and seems to be just parroting Cowan's words. It is interesting that the actual food statistics do not support any of this generalizing. The very detailed figure for food supply to Auckland, by Maori,in the mid 1850s show that the vast majority came from the Auckland's isthmus and what we would call the North Shore today,Ngati Paoa"s Waiheke Island and Ngati Maru's land by Thames. The 3,500 in the whole Waikato is a tiny number given that a lot of Maori food came from lakes swamp etc. Hamilton's (Kirikiriroa) Maori population just before the war of 1863 was about 70 people total by count. The only references I can find to actual crops are peaches being grown by Pukete Pa and the very small area of potatoes and kumara being grown by the present Waikato Museum on a small river terrace. "Burial sites" is a pretty blunt "semantic hammer". In pre European times Maori buried bones all over the place so any land could have bones on it. Just yesterday a bunch of Maori bones were found in the sand hills of Taranaki near New Plymouth I think. Bones of truly important men of man were always uplifted and taken with an iwi or hapu when they moved. If the bones were left behind they were of people of no importance. This happens even in modern times -there has been a lot of anger expressed about Hone Heke's bones being taken by his whanau and reburied just last year. I wonder why so much land was given back to Waikato about 6 months after it was confiscated? If the land was so fertile why did so many farmers around Hamilton just walk of it in 1868 and go back to Australia? Why did Ngati Haua ,specifically Wiremu Tamiha's son(who was still actively involved with the Kingtanga) so willingly lease and the sell vast areas of swamp to Morrin and Firth in the East Waikato in 1870? Would they sell off prime agricultural land? If the land was so critical to Waikato why did they continue to sell off enormous chunks in the 1900-1912 period? To me there is a big disconnect between the generalizations and the reality. Even today there is a huge peat dome swamp south of Ngatea that is unusable for farming-an area of 200 square km! I suggest a statement along the lines that settlers were deluded in thinking of the whole Waikato as being fertile as only very tiny areas such as ---- were used for Maori crops and this European style farming development only started in the 1840s again in very limited area. Then a statement about how Maori did use the natural resources of the land and swamp land and a bit about how they created man made soils to grow isolated pockets of Kumara. Then a statement about changing Waikato Maori attitudes to land that allowed those even at the heart of the kingitanga to justify selling off their remaining land. If you just say "fertile land" that gives a totally erroneous idea of what the land was like.One final point- the "fertility" of the Waikato soils today is only due to the liberal use of superphospate (mainly from Nauru Island up till the 1980s)and lime on the land. What do you think?Claudia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk) 23:51, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
I am not satisfied that this edit [3] by 122.62.226.243 claiming Tāwhiao "used his influence to withdraw all the money for the trip from the newly set up Maori bank. When depositers found all the money gone they burnt down the bank" should remain in the article. The source material, which is far from adequately cited, paints quite a different picture. Stuart Park's article in the New Zealand Journal of History at this site quotes from the Australian Insurance and Banking Record (21 June 1916); this states that the deputation to London was led by (or comprised only) bank directors Aperahama Te Rei and Hone Te Parikou (to whom it refers as "Abraham the Jewel" and "John Slippery Fish" respectively. There is no mention of King Tawhiao; nor does it even seem to correlate with the 1882 deputation to London by a group of northern chiefs described by Ranginui Walker (Struggle Without End, pg 160.)
Park observes: "The tone of this (AIBR) article is very negative, typical of much Pakeha writing about Maori of the later nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Much of the content might well be factual, like the description of grievances over Treaty issues, although the names given to the chiefs appear so strange as to be quite unlikely. No contemporary Maori sources examined record such names." He concludes that the report has "dubious reliability" and reflects the "supercilious, patronising attitude" of earlier press articles on the bank.
In any case, this is the first and only reference in the Wikipedia article to the Maori bank. It seems mischievous to introduce it with a highly suspect article written in a clearly patronising and insulting manner that assumes, on thin evidence, that it was referring to the 1884 deputation to London led by Tawhiao. I'll try to find the second sloppily cited source provided, "King Potatau. Pei Te Hurinui Jones. p 230-231" and see if it is any clearer. BlackCab ( talk) 05:00, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for replying so promptly. I had not had time to read all the Park comments,which are fairly lengthy, until today as Ive been busy at work . I dont know who he or she is or how reliable their comments are-I have never heard of them. Perhaps you know of them? Park does seem to make some points and that's one reason why I suggested the abbreviated "6 point" plan version(or something along those lines) which leaves out any reference to any or all money being borrowed. Ive done a bit more reading and it seems that some money was paid directly by one iwi and "maybe" some came from the Maori bank. However there is still the Q about even if the Maori bank existed in 1884. What do you think of the 6 points above? Maybe suggest your own version?Ill try and find that Tainui book if I have time tomorrow- its a while since I looked at it. Looks like a nice day in Melbourne today. I lived in Toorak many years ago -it was always nice there. Claudia.
Had a look for the book yesterday but the library systems were down so I'll have to wait a few days until they have their new system up.It seems from Parks information that the Kingitangi went to some considerable trouble to produce their own bank notes but maybe never actually used them -they may have just stuck with normal NZ currency . The comments about Maori not understanding the concept of percentage interest was revealing . This would suggest that it would have been difficult to sustain a banking system for long mainly due to poor understanding of basic principles as well as economics in general. Claudia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk) 00:02, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Gadfium for in help in tracking down Potatau. As you say there does seem to be some difference between different editions. When I have time I'll see what I can find.It finally seems that the source of Tawhaio's finance for the extended trip is revealed. In the latter period in the late 1880s and into the 1890s it seems it was fairly common practice for Waikato Kingitanga Maori to be levied a tax to support Kingitanga operations. I know Te Puea reinstated that tax in alater paeriod and it was commonly known as the whitebait tax in the Waikato. Perhaps the origins of this is in Tawhiao's fund raising efforts. By shear chance I was given a historical document yesterday that shows , far from the visit to Britain being secret, the Kingitanga party was accompanied by a village brass band from near Pirongia(Alexandra in those days) half way to the railway station at Te Awamutu, where another village brass band took over for the rest of the journey.Claudia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk) 20:57, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
A few details have been included as there is such a huge public interest in NZ in this topic. The issue is ongoing and has been featured in the main stream media for over a week. It highlights certain aspects of the Kingites. On line polls show huge and continuing interest. Information has been supported by refs. Information has been gathered by the media from face book and video before going public. Maori in particular are outraged at the special treatment being given to the son because the connection to his father. As it is now a crisis for the king it is doubly important to have information that can easily be accessed. Clearly this is the most important event that has happened to the king in a long time. Stuff Nz had so many comments they had to close down the comments server before it crashed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk)
Since the discussion began the event has become much bigger due to the ongoing very serious revelations about the son. So the previous "consensus"re just one event, is largely irrelevant. To say it has no impact is complete,utter nonsense! The king himself used the word crisis. All the Tainui marae are now being consulted. Many Maori (as well as Pakeha) are outraged. Blackcab's comments are tantamount to attempted censorship which I will not stand for. How does he know it will have no lasting impact??There has been plenty of very critical comment but I left it out for brevity's sake. Claudia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk) 09:59, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
The heading for this section is "The King's Son". This alone makes it notable and very different from some unknown teen. Im not sure what you mean by "wild theories". Can you point out the "wild theories" in any of the edits? All the information is direct from the Waikato Times and supported by refs from there. After the court case it emerged that despite attempts by the QC to portray the incidents as limited and perhaps insignificant this kind of behaviour is not new to Korotangi. The influence of the Maori king rests not on judicial or legal influence- it is totally by reputation. The king's reputation is tainted by his son's actions which in the last 2 years have included drunk driving ,breach or parole,theft, burglary,being thrown out of his rugby team for bad behaviour ,making racist comments on face book,using Mongrol Mob gang greetings and signs,using obscene language and behaving like an arrogant turkey in a video that is now public. The online polls,the talk back, the joke about Korotangi in the editorial page pf the Waikato Times simply tells us that this is of great public concern and interest. Maori women are particularly concerned about these attitudes of Korotangi and how our young Tainui men will perceive them. The polls were not used to reference any of the factual material in the article.
The only people quoted in the media have been A. The Maori King. B Tuku Morgan.C. The QC D. The judge. Are you saying that none of these people know what they are talking about? The reporter who wrote the first article was in court. You did not say which part of the newspaper article was wrong -please do so!!. As per the article this teen is in line to be the next king -this was the argument used by the QC to stop him being convicted. A consensus is not two editors!!! even if Stuart things so-especially when considering attempted possible "censorship". There is a big difference between the son of an MP and the son of a king. Firstly the MP has a position of influence by law and the king does not. Secondly the son of an MP did not get off because he was possibly going to inherit his father's role. In other words, as indicated previously, the King's mana or authority rests solely on his reputation-if his reputation is effected by his son's actions then that is serious not just for the king, or his son, but for the kingite movement.
Thankyou gadfium for your efforts which are a shining light of hope. I am very disappointed that other editors have not even attempted to answer my various points. In my academic world we have very time for individuals who don't respect others who produce information contrary to their own beliefs. In medieval times they chopped off the heads of folks who produced new, contrary facts-now they ban them from Wiki! Sorry that the discussion is now on various pages-my time is too valuable to answer on other pages as well.
Can we have a discussion or input from other editors who are not partial? At least one of the editors commenting is notorious for knee jerk "sounding off" going back many years. I note the use of a term above(3) that is rather disgusting and totally unnecessary. I want to see reasoned arguments not bad language and blather. Kia Ora Claudia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk) 23:50, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
I've just added "main article" links for each monarch. In general I think that there needs only be a paragraph or two on each in this article. Certainly no comment the drama around KP should be here - but it may be perfectly appropriate on Tuheitia Paki's page. Snori ( talk) 08:38, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
The use of the word is well explained in the text ie that Maniapoto and Rewi Maniapoto were the extreme edge of the militant wing of the kingitanga compared to say the king himself or Ngati Haua's William Thompson, who both had more passive viewpoints. Gorst, who lived in the area and attended many of the meetings is very instructive on the very heated conflict within the various kingitanga factions. 115.188.178.77 ( talk) 00:42, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
I don't agree at all. Hardliner would be accurate if you are talking about someone who has "hard" conservative or firm ideas but it does not convey the idea that he was prepared to use violence, as Rewi repeatedly did. He was behind the attempted "assassination" of Grey and he constantly argued for the use of militancy and violence against Europeans in general as well as the the government. He was the source of the instructions to kidnap the wives and children of settlers in the Waikato. It was Rewi who riled up the Maori Catholics by claiming all protestants were in the pay of the government. It was W Kingi and Rewi who led the attack and burning down the Te Awamutu trade school and stealing the press. It was Rewi who argued with the king and W Thompson about attack the British. Rewi was clever -he realised that once he attacked Auckland the moderates would have to follow suit out of loyalty and because the British would not(or could not) distinguish between extreme militants or moderate militants -if they were attacking the army or settlers they would be shot. It was mainly Rewi's men who launched the initial attack on Auckland, along with locals who acted as guides. They killed random settlers who had not left, stole cattle etc but were surprisingly (a surprise to both sides)defeated at the battle of East Pukekohe Church. After this Ngati Haua and other joined the Auckland attacks so the "moderates" did not remain so -they joined in the general violence. All these acts show that Rewi had hard line ideas in the sense he was uncompromising but extremist or militant are better and more accurate terms to describe what he did rather than what he thought. If Sinclair used the term in this instance he was right.
All very ironic really given that after the collapse of the King country Kingitanga "nation" and their formal surrender, Rewi became the leading member of the Gov Grey fan club who even wished to be buried alongside Grey! 115.188.178.77 ( talk) 08:18, 18 January 2016 (UTC) I've restored the original quote removed by the unknown editor.This is what Sinclair actually wrote, he didnt write "hardliners". You cant just wily nilly change historian's work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.188.178.77 ( talk) 04:53, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
In view of what actually happened in Auckland, Sinclair's use of the word "extremists " is most apt. I'm sure if this happened in today's world the rebels who killed the unarmed settlers would be called terrorists. The kidnapping of settlers' wives and children , mass theft of property (mainly in Taranaki), targeting of government property ( courts,schools) is not a million miles from more recent terrorist acts in the Middle East. If anything, Sinclair's choice of words was rather constrained . 115.188.178.77 ( talk) 20:27, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
You have totally distorted what O'Malley wrote! What he did say was that most historians, like Sinclair, supported the "extremist" view. Only 3 had opposing -one of whom is not even an historian but works in media. At least one of the "anti" brigade is himself an "extremist" who regularly promulgates separatist views. It is very clear that Rewi was an extremist compared to nearly all of the other key Maori leaders, especially Wiremu Thompson. It is important to look at Rewi's personality to see why he held such views and why he acted in certain ways. Importantly why did other chiefs eg Wiremu Kingi and other hapu find it easy to persuade Rewi to take part in violent acts -often seemingly against his best interest? 115.188.178.77 ( talk) 11:02, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Yes he said it was a minority view.If he had looked into the background of the few who had that view he would have seen the low calibre ofeven these few. One of them is a close associate of Tuki "underpants" Morgan. Enough said!!!!
The capitalisation of 'Movement' in the article title seems incorrect, unless 'Māori King Movement' is a proper name. In the List of social movements, 'movement' is not generally capitalised when it is not part of an organisation's name. Te Ara uses 'Māori King movement'. [5] NZHistory is inconsistent but mostly uses 'Māori King movement'. [6] Should we move the article to Māori King movement? Thoughts? Nurg ( talk) 05:41, 11 August 2019 (UTC)