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I felt the article should make it clearer that Lysanias could be either one or two people, and that there is a debate about it. I've "been bold" and changed it, as it became easier than explaining here what I had in mind; but if anyone dislikes what I've done, please feel free to change it, or, if you disagree, to revert it. Swanny18 14:05, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
PS.I've just looked at the edit history: I can't believe how much red type is there; I only re-worked a couple of sentences! Swanny18 14:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Someone has written an essay to prove that the inscription cannot mean the biblical Lysanias. Interesting tho this is, I think that it fails the 'original research' criterion for inclusion in Wikipedia. Rather it belongs on someone's web page, with a link to it on this one. If there are scholars who have expressed doubts, then a summary with reference would appropriately be inserted under the biblical Lysanias section?
I've also pruned and reorganised the page; it was rather repetitive, full of unreferenced assertions, and too concerned to argue for or against the identity of the two figures. I hope it helps and that I haven't committed the sin of POV either way. What I tried to do was let the data speak for itself. Roger Pearse 16:41, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Let's consider the archaeological evidence for this Lysanias. It is a fragment whose interpretation, it is claimed, talks of Tiberius and his mother Livia as "August lords", Κυριωι Σεβαστωι. The specific phrase in fact only apparently occurs in this fragment, so the evidence breaks down to the term Σεβαστωι. However, coins minted in Smyrna in 10 BCE show images of Augustus and Livia with the caption Σεβαστωι Σμυρναιωι [1], the "Smyrnean Augusti", ie Augustus and Livia were referred to as Σεβαστωι in 10 BCE, so the fragment could easily refer to a period circa 10 BCE. We also know that during the life of Augustus, a reference to him and his wife as the Θεωι Σεβαστωι, "August gods", was included in the mysteries of Demeter at Ephesus [2]. This means there is no reason to believe that the term Σεβαστωι should be restricted to the time of Tiberius or later, so Nymphaeus, the freedman of Aetus, if the inscription dated to circa 10 BCE, could easily have known of a street that the historically known Lysanias established less than thirty years earlier.
That being the case, the temple inscription is of no use for dating the Lysanias it mentions to a time other than that of the Lysanias known from history. Josephus mentioning the kingdom of Lysanias regarding properties gifted by Caligula and Claudius is nothing strange, given the probable long lasting memory of this friend of the Jews. Such long lasting associations between people and places was not uncommon: one need only think of Caesarea Philippi, named after the tetrarch Philip II who died in 34 CE, yet preserved in the New Testament.
The only issue left to be dealt with is the reference in Luke to a Lysanias, tetrarch of Abilene, at a time when Philip II was tetrarch of the region of Iturea and Trachonitis according to the gospel of Luke. It is interesting that Iturea once contained Abilene, though it may have been separated out in one of the various land redistributions.
The issue cannot be resolved due to insufficient evidence to support this second Lysanias, though on face value it would seem difficult for the gospel account to reflect history. It is unlikely that an otherwise unheard of Lysanias of the same name as a well known ruler appeared 60 years later.
References
The editor who has removed evidence from this entry seems more interested in apologetics than in getting at the history of the matter. The attempt to put the figure mentioned in Luke on the same level as the verified Lysanias shows no historical methodology. Repetition of errors does not make the error any more correct. The conjectures on the fragment from Abila mentioning Lysanias has been shown to be baseless from the coin evidence cited in the article. Removing it only seems to show a desire to hid facts. If you cannot check the evidence leave it alone. F.F. Bruce is a Christian text scholar and apologist who shows no interest in history. He has no place in an article with pretensions of history. -- Doktorspin ( talk) 12:26, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
arimareiji ( talk) 16:02, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
I've decided to accept some of the revisions, as I think Spin did improve my edits in some areas. One thing is quite unclear, tho. I have left this sentence, but it seems very unclear to me:
But how is this relevant? The statement made is that "August lords" is a unique reference only to Tiberius and Livia (so F.F.Bruce, and referenced). But this is NOT the same as saying "Augusti"; so how is this idea that both Augustus and Livia were called Augusti relevant? If there is an argument here, it is not obvious what it is. Also... is this original research again? Whose opinion is this, that this is significant? Roger Pearse 22:43, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
References
In the article, it is asserted that Lysanias was cousin of Antigonus. I find the concept persuasive but I am curious what the logic or citation might be. Reading the relevant portions of Josephus could lead to that conclusion but I haven't read such a conclusion, stated in so many words, in any source other than this Wikipedia article.
Hippodras ( talk) 00:18, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Philip was given ruler-ship of some of the land Ptolemy and Lysanias ruled. We don't know much about Cleopatra of Jerusalem, maybe she was a daughter of Lysanias? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.25.176.92 ( talk) 04:02, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
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I felt the article should make it clearer that Lysanias could be either one or two people, and that there is a debate about it. I've "been bold" and changed it, as it became easier than explaining here what I had in mind; but if anyone dislikes what I've done, please feel free to change it, or, if you disagree, to revert it. Swanny18 14:05, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
PS.I've just looked at the edit history: I can't believe how much red type is there; I only re-worked a couple of sentences! Swanny18 14:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Someone has written an essay to prove that the inscription cannot mean the biblical Lysanias. Interesting tho this is, I think that it fails the 'original research' criterion for inclusion in Wikipedia. Rather it belongs on someone's web page, with a link to it on this one. If there are scholars who have expressed doubts, then a summary with reference would appropriately be inserted under the biblical Lysanias section?
I've also pruned and reorganised the page; it was rather repetitive, full of unreferenced assertions, and too concerned to argue for or against the identity of the two figures. I hope it helps and that I haven't committed the sin of POV either way. What I tried to do was let the data speak for itself. Roger Pearse 16:41, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Let's consider the archaeological evidence for this Lysanias. It is a fragment whose interpretation, it is claimed, talks of Tiberius and his mother Livia as "August lords", Κυριωι Σεβαστωι. The specific phrase in fact only apparently occurs in this fragment, so the evidence breaks down to the term Σεβαστωι. However, coins minted in Smyrna in 10 BCE show images of Augustus and Livia with the caption Σεβαστωι Σμυρναιωι [1], the "Smyrnean Augusti", ie Augustus and Livia were referred to as Σεβαστωι in 10 BCE, so the fragment could easily refer to a period circa 10 BCE. We also know that during the life of Augustus, a reference to him and his wife as the Θεωι Σεβαστωι, "August gods", was included in the mysteries of Demeter at Ephesus [2]. This means there is no reason to believe that the term Σεβαστωι should be restricted to the time of Tiberius or later, so Nymphaeus, the freedman of Aetus, if the inscription dated to circa 10 BCE, could easily have known of a street that the historically known Lysanias established less than thirty years earlier.
That being the case, the temple inscription is of no use for dating the Lysanias it mentions to a time other than that of the Lysanias known from history. Josephus mentioning the kingdom of Lysanias regarding properties gifted by Caligula and Claudius is nothing strange, given the probable long lasting memory of this friend of the Jews. Such long lasting associations between people and places was not uncommon: one need only think of Caesarea Philippi, named after the tetrarch Philip II who died in 34 CE, yet preserved in the New Testament.
The only issue left to be dealt with is the reference in Luke to a Lysanias, tetrarch of Abilene, at a time when Philip II was tetrarch of the region of Iturea and Trachonitis according to the gospel of Luke. It is interesting that Iturea once contained Abilene, though it may have been separated out in one of the various land redistributions.
The issue cannot be resolved due to insufficient evidence to support this second Lysanias, though on face value it would seem difficult for the gospel account to reflect history. It is unlikely that an otherwise unheard of Lysanias of the same name as a well known ruler appeared 60 years later.
References
The editor who has removed evidence from this entry seems more interested in apologetics than in getting at the history of the matter. The attempt to put the figure mentioned in Luke on the same level as the verified Lysanias shows no historical methodology. Repetition of errors does not make the error any more correct. The conjectures on the fragment from Abila mentioning Lysanias has been shown to be baseless from the coin evidence cited in the article. Removing it only seems to show a desire to hid facts. If you cannot check the evidence leave it alone. F.F. Bruce is a Christian text scholar and apologist who shows no interest in history. He has no place in an article with pretensions of history. -- Doktorspin ( talk) 12:26, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
arimareiji ( talk) 16:02, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
I've decided to accept some of the revisions, as I think Spin did improve my edits in some areas. One thing is quite unclear, tho. I have left this sentence, but it seems very unclear to me:
But how is this relevant? The statement made is that "August lords" is a unique reference only to Tiberius and Livia (so F.F.Bruce, and referenced). But this is NOT the same as saying "Augusti"; so how is this idea that both Augustus and Livia were called Augusti relevant? If there is an argument here, it is not obvious what it is. Also... is this original research again? Whose opinion is this, that this is significant? Roger Pearse 22:43, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
References
In the article, it is asserted that Lysanias was cousin of Antigonus. I find the concept persuasive but I am curious what the logic or citation might be. Reading the relevant portions of Josephus could lead to that conclusion but I haven't read such a conclusion, stated in so many words, in any source other than this Wikipedia article.
Hippodras ( talk) 00:18, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Philip was given ruler-ship of some of the land Ptolemy and Lysanias ruled. We don't know much about Cleopatra of Jerusalem, maybe she was a daughter of Lysanias? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.25.176.92 ( talk) 04:02, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Lysanias. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:44, 8 January 2018 (UTC)