This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Since I have written a completely new article, I have archived all the old Talk. The process of researching this article has made me even more aware of what a dishonest crock of lying propaganda the previous one was. Adam 10:36, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Adam, your new article is not only work of fiction, it is a plagiarized work of fiction, having been lifted entirely from Dennis King's Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism. I have reverted to a previous version. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial.-- Herschelkrustofsky 14:34, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I am happy to acknowledge that the article is largely based on that book, which seems to me to a well-researched and reliable account. It is not "plagiarised" from it, because plagiarism requires the unacknowledged use of the words of another author. Nowhere have I directly quoted King. All encyclopaedia articles are based on the original research of other authors, and this is not required to be acknowledged in detail unless there is a dispute as to the veracity of the source. The section on LaRouche's trial and conviction is not based on King, but on the account in the Washington Post. I of course expected Herschel to object to the new article, because it abolishes all the LaRouche propaganda he inserted into the old one. If Herschel wants to question the accuracy of any points in the new article, I am happy to debate them. On the other hand if he wants a revert war he will get one. Adam 15:01, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Why don't you tell us instead which points in the new article you disagree with? Adam 15:12, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Herschel's hodgepodge beats Adam's diatribe. - 64.30.208.48
While I am definnitely no fan of LaRouche (I consider him a nut so far out on the fringe that to call him a leftist or far rightist is nonsensical), I feel that the section headers in this article are uncomfortably POV: "LaRouche as a leftist", "as a leader", "as a politician", "as a felon". Perhaps better would be "Early Career", "After SDS", "Presidential Bids", and "Criminal Charges".
BTW, Adam's version has a misspelled word: grep for "codeward". -- llywrch 18:11, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I don't have any objections to Llywrch's new section heads. I don't know what either "grep" or "codeward" mean and I don't recall writing either word in my life. Adam 02:22, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
1. "As a Quaker, he was at first a conscientious objector during World War II, but in 1944 he joined the United States Army, serving in medical units in India. During this period he read Karl Marx and became a Communist." To my knowledge, LaRouche has never said that he "became a Communist." He became an expert on Marx, but as critic, and he suggested ways in which Marx's theory could be corrected. His involvement with SWP and so on consisted of his trying to raise his own ideas, but he complained that the SWPers were "Philistines", dogmatists who had no interest in theoretical debates. The actually historically interesting aspect of LaRouche's stay in India, was his involvement in the Indian Independence movement, which is omitted from Dennis King's book.
2. "LaRouche remained in the SWP until 1966, making him a veteran member in a group which always had a high turnover of members. He now maintains that he was soon disillusioned with Marxism and stayed in the SWP only as an informant for the Federal Bureau of Investigation."
4. "The NCLC soon developed the hallmarks of a cult, with a charismatic leader (LaRouche), a catastrophist and conspiratorial ideology, and an esoteric vocabulary known only to initiates." Again, the product of Dennis King's fevered imagination-for-hire. I think Adam should reveal to us exactly what attracts him to King's ravings, when there are many other, relatively objective sources. Adam should also ask himself this question: If King's book is correct, and LaRouche is some sort of demonic figure, how is LaRouche able to fool the various institutions which have invited him to speak, such as the Russian Duma and the Russian Academy of Sciences, to name only a few?
6. "In 1980 LaRouche said that only 1.5 million Jews had died in World War II, not the generally accepted 6 million."
7. "Finally in a publication called The Secrets Known Only to the Inner Elites LaRouche brought his theories to their logical conclusion. There was no such thing as communism or fascism, left or right: these were all facets of the great overarching conspiracy of the "Synarchy," an oligarchical network of financiers and manipulators who rule the world." There is no mention of "synarchy" in that publication; it is a discussion of Plato's ideas, versus those of Aristotle. LaRouche has never said that "there was no such thing as communism or fascism," and to my recollection, King has never made this particular claim; this may be Adam's only original contribution to anti-LaRouche myth-making.
This is a partial listing of falsehoods and egregious POV problems. I won't take the time to list the rest of them, because I should think that the ones I have already listed should be sufficient to demonstrate that Adam's article is hopelessly flawed, and that Wikipedia would be better served by the continued editing of the previous one -- and by appropriate mediation. Adam and John K. have demonstrated an animus that certainly runs contrary to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. -- Herschelkrustofsky 03:04, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I agree. I don't think Herschel's involvement in this article is necessarily a bad thing - at the very least, it can force us to steer away from the rhetorical anti-LaRouche excess to which non-LaRouchites who actually look into the fellow seem to be drawn. But that obviously doesn't mean we can let the article be turned into pro-LaRouche gobbledygook. (Speaking of which, have you seen Helga Zepp-LaRouche? I changed a bit, but it's pretty hard core LaRouchite, at the moment.) john k 05:26, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Herschel needs to make up his mind whether he wants to take part in a constructive debate on the article, which John and I have shown we are willing to do, or engage in wild conspiracy accusations and revert wars, which only confirm suspicions that he is himself a LaRouchie. I'm not sure who Richard Mellon Scaife is but I presume he is part of the international bankers' conspiracy. I can certify that I have never been paid by him or any other banker, but I am open to offers. Adam 09:31, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I have removed the statement that LaRouche claimed that only 1.5 million Jews died in World War II, although this statement is widely quoted, because I have not yet traced it to an actual dated source. If and when I do so I will reinstate it. Adam 09:58, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This article reads like a Rush Limbaugh tantrum. As long as it is protected from editing, it should also be clearly marked "{{NPOV}"
Yes, because only right wingers like Rush Limbaugh don't worship LaRouche. Gah. But I've added the NPOV label. At any rate, the previous article was awful, in that it was full of nonsense. Herschel, why can't you work on the current version and try to improve it, rather than constantly reverting to a version that several people find unacceptable? john k 19:29, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Since this is an American we are talking about, once the article is unprotected, I think the Queen's English should go. WhisperToMe 21:27, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
(moved from the Requests for mediation page)
User:Herschelkrustofsky, User:Adam Carr and User:John Kenney
Adam has announced his intention to commence an edit war over article Lyndon LaRouche. Previously he had archived the entire talk section and posted a new article, which is not only generally false, but also plagiarized from a book that was commissioned as a character assassination. In this case, I am reluctant to approach him a second time for mediation, and would prefer that a third party do so. -- Herschelkrustofsky 14:43, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
You have not expressed your specific problems with the article (which Adam has stated he is perfectly willing to discuss) in the talk page. Until that happens, mediation seems inappropriate. john k 20:00, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This discussion is not appropriate for this page. Once John Kenney and Adam Carr have responded to Herschelkrustofsky's request for mediation and assented or refused (which I have "officially" asked them to do on their respective talk pages), I will move this discussion to Wikipedia:Requests for comment.
Thanks, Bcorr, Co-chair of the Mediation Committee. 00:21, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I don't see formal mediation as necessary at this stage. Nor do I think the article should be protected. What should happen is that more people knowledgeable on the subject should participate in editing it. I don't claim that my article is perfect, and I agree it is based on a narrower source-base than I would like. It is however an honest attempt to write a biographical article on LaRouche, whereas the previous one was just recycled LaRouche propaganda. Adam 01:22, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Since I have written a completely new article, I have archived all the old Talk. The process of researching this article has made me even more aware of what a dishonest crock of lying propaganda the previous one was. Adam 10:36, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Adam, your new article is not only work of fiction, it is a plagiarized work of fiction, having been lifted entirely from Dennis King's Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism. I have reverted to a previous version. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial.-- Herschelkrustofsky 14:34, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I am happy to acknowledge that the article is largely based on that book, which seems to me to a well-researched and reliable account. It is not "plagiarised" from it, because plagiarism requires the unacknowledged use of the words of another author. Nowhere have I directly quoted King. All encyclopaedia articles are based on the original research of other authors, and this is not required to be acknowledged in detail unless there is a dispute as to the veracity of the source. The section on LaRouche's trial and conviction is not based on King, but on the account in the Washington Post. I of course expected Herschel to object to the new article, because it abolishes all the LaRouche propaganda he inserted into the old one. If Herschel wants to question the accuracy of any points in the new article, I am happy to debate them. On the other hand if he wants a revert war he will get one. Adam 15:01, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Why don't you tell us instead which points in the new article you disagree with? Adam 15:12, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Herschel's hodgepodge beats Adam's diatribe. - 64.30.208.48
While I am definnitely no fan of LaRouche (I consider him a nut so far out on the fringe that to call him a leftist or far rightist is nonsensical), I feel that the section headers in this article are uncomfortably POV: "LaRouche as a leftist", "as a leader", "as a politician", "as a felon". Perhaps better would be "Early Career", "After SDS", "Presidential Bids", and "Criminal Charges".
BTW, Adam's version has a misspelled word: grep for "codeward". -- llywrch 18:11, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I don't have any objections to Llywrch's new section heads. I don't know what either "grep" or "codeward" mean and I don't recall writing either word in my life. Adam 02:22, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
1. "As a Quaker, he was at first a conscientious objector during World War II, but in 1944 he joined the United States Army, serving in medical units in India. During this period he read Karl Marx and became a Communist." To my knowledge, LaRouche has never said that he "became a Communist." He became an expert on Marx, but as critic, and he suggested ways in which Marx's theory could be corrected. His involvement with SWP and so on consisted of his trying to raise his own ideas, but he complained that the SWPers were "Philistines", dogmatists who had no interest in theoretical debates. The actually historically interesting aspect of LaRouche's stay in India, was his involvement in the Indian Independence movement, which is omitted from Dennis King's book.
2. "LaRouche remained in the SWP until 1966, making him a veteran member in a group which always had a high turnover of members. He now maintains that he was soon disillusioned with Marxism and stayed in the SWP only as an informant for the Federal Bureau of Investigation."
4. "The NCLC soon developed the hallmarks of a cult, with a charismatic leader (LaRouche), a catastrophist and conspiratorial ideology, and an esoteric vocabulary known only to initiates." Again, the product of Dennis King's fevered imagination-for-hire. I think Adam should reveal to us exactly what attracts him to King's ravings, when there are many other, relatively objective sources. Adam should also ask himself this question: If King's book is correct, and LaRouche is some sort of demonic figure, how is LaRouche able to fool the various institutions which have invited him to speak, such as the Russian Duma and the Russian Academy of Sciences, to name only a few?
6. "In 1980 LaRouche said that only 1.5 million Jews had died in World War II, not the generally accepted 6 million."
7. "Finally in a publication called The Secrets Known Only to the Inner Elites LaRouche brought his theories to their logical conclusion. There was no such thing as communism or fascism, left or right: these were all facets of the great overarching conspiracy of the "Synarchy," an oligarchical network of financiers and manipulators who rule the world." There is no mention of "synarchy" in that publication; it is a discussion of Plato's ideas, versus those of Aristotle. LaRouche has never said that "there was no such thing as communism or fascism," and to my recollection, King has never made this particular claim; this may be Adam's only original contribution to anti-LaRouche myth-making.
This is a partial listing of falsehoods and egregious POV problems. I won't take the time to list the rest of them, because I should think that the ones I have already listed should be sufficient to demonstrate that Adam's article is hopelessly flawed, and that Wikipedia would be better served by the continued editing of the previous one -- and by appropriate mediation. Adam and John K. have demonstrated an animus that certainly runs contrary to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. -- Herschelkrustofsky 03:04, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I agree. I don't think Herschel's involvement in this article is necessarily a bad thing - at the very least, it can force us to steer away from the rhetorical anti-LaRouche excess to which non-LaRouchites who actually look into the fellow seem to be drawn. But that obviously doesn't mean we can let the article be turned into pro-LaRouche gobbledygook. (Speaking of which, have you seen Helga Zepp-LaRouche? I changed a bit, but it's pretty hard core LaRouchite, at the moment.) john k 05:26, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Herschel needs to make up his mind whether he wants to take part in a constructive debate on the article, which John and I have shown we are willing to do, or engage in wild conspiracy accusations and revert wars, which only confirm suspicions that he is himself a LaRouchie. I'm not sure who Richard Mellon Scaife is but I presume he is part of the international bankers' conspiracy. I can certify that I have never been paid by him or any other banker, but I am open to offers. Adam 09:31, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I have removed the statement that LaRouche claimed that only 1.5 million Jews died in World War II, although this statement is widely quoted, because I have not yet traced it to an actual dated source. If and when I do so I will reinstate it. Adam 09:58, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This article reads like a Rush Limbaugh tantrum. As long as it is protected from editing, it should also be clearly marked "{{NPOV}"
Yes, because only right wingers like Rush Limbaugh don't worship LaRouche. Gah. But I've added the NPOV label. At any rate, the previous article was awful, in that it was full of nonsense. Herschel, why can't you work on the current version and try to improve it, rather than constantly reverting to a version that several people find unacceptable? john k 19:29, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Since this is an American we are talking about, once the article is unprotected, I think the Queen's English should go. WhisperToMe 21:27, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
(moved from the Requests for mediation page)
User:Herschelkrustofsky, User:Adam Carr and User:John Kenney
Adam has announced his intention to commence an edit war over article Lyndon LaRouche. Previously he had archived the entire talk section and posted a new article, which is not only generally false, but also plagiarized from a book that was commissioned as a character assassination. In this case, I am reluctant to approach him a second time for mediation, and would prefer that a third party do so. -- Herschelkrustofsky 14:43, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
You have not expressed your specific problems with the article (which Adam has stated he is perfectly willing to discuss) in the talk page. Until that happens, mediation seems inappropriate. john k 20:00, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This discussion is not appropriate for this page. Once John Kenney and Adam Carr have responded to Herschelkrustofsky's request for mediation and assented or refused (which I have "officially" asked them to do on their respective talk pages), I will move this discussion to Wikipedia:Requests for comment.
Thanks, Bcorr, Co-chair of the Mediation Committee. 00:21, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I don't see formal mediation as necessary at this stage. Nor do I think the article should be protected. What should happen is that more people knowledgeable on the subject should participate in editing it. I don't claim that my article is perfect, and I agree it is based on a narrower source-base than I would like. It is however an honest attempt to write a biographical article on LaRouche, whereas the previous one was just recycled LaRouche propaganda. Adam 01:22, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)