I have been reading up on Wikipedia policy, and I think that this article is probably in violation of a number of guidelines. To begin with, the following should be considered:
From WP:LIVING:
Editors should be on the lookout for biased or malicious content in biographies or biographical information. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability.
The views of critics should be represented if their views are relevant to the subject's notability and are based on reliable sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics' material. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one. If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article.
Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of positive or negative claims that rely on association.
From
WP:RS:
Certain red flags should prompt editors to examine the sources for a given claim.
Exceptional claims should be supported by multiple credible and verifiable sources, especially with regard to historical events or politically-charged issues.
____
With this in mind, I think a number of the critical passages should go. To begin with, the Wohlforth quote where he says that LaRouche's support for American System is really just support for Nazism. This would be a case where exceptional claims require exceptional evidence. -- ManEatingDonut 15:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Is Totse.com a reliable source? [17] - Will Beback · † · 07:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
This is for the benefit of Mgunn: you might want to review the previous discussion about the intro. First of all, the quote about China is from the China People's Daily, not EIR. There is a link so that you may read it for yourself. There is also a link to the Russia TV website, but you need to know Russian to pursue that one. Secondly, public messages to EIR, whether from Gene McCarthy or the comments made by the Russian guy in a webcast, are not subjective evaluations by the LaRouche movement, but quotes, and I don't see how they can be disputed. Finally (and this may not be entirely relevant to a discussion of the intro,) according to SlimVirgin the ArbCom said that EIR and LaRouche publications may be used as sources in articles about LaRouche. As you can see above, this has all been discussed and negotiated quite a bit, and as the template says, please don't make major changes without discussing first. -- ManEatingDonut 20:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Two of the items I removed were sourced by the Larouche Execute Intelligence Review, a publication which is cited NOWHERE in academia and NOWHERE in the mainstream media. People can call it what they want, but it is not a reputable source for statements of fact. This is not opinion, this is reality. The validity of the statement I removed has been repeatedly questioned on this talk page, and it should be removed. On the China's People Daily reference, that article contians AN ALMOST EXACT COPY of the wikipedia article. This is a blatant circular reference (and IMHO is particularly egregious). The wikipedia article cites a china's people daily article that is a copy of an earlier version of the wikipedia article. Both of these vague, misleading, inaccurate, and inproperly sourced lines should be removed. -- Mgunn November 23, 2006
The line, "His imprisonment was protested by public figures from around the world" has no sources. Which public figures? (The Ramsey Clark stuff is insufficient to backup that claim because Ramsey Clark is a US citizen and was representing Larouche in a legal capacity.) If justification for this statement cannot be found, it should also be removed. -- Mgunn November 23, 2006
As I understand it, the policy on the Executive Intelligence Review (EIR) is that it can be used to explain the viewpoints of Larouche and attribute claims to Larouche, but nothing else because it is not a reliable source. eg. You could say... "Larouche claims X" and cite the the EIR but you cannot say "X" then cite the EIR. If the EIR is indeed unreliable, all material that is based on it should be:
Does Wikipedia consider the Executive Intelligence Review a reliable source? Is my understanding of how an unreliable source is dealt with correct? - Mgunn November 23, 2006
First of all, not all the material that is being deleted by Mgunn or 172 comes from EIR. For example, the stuff about meetings with third world leaders is not disputed. It is referenced in the Washington Post article, and even by Dennis King. No one, other than perhaps Mgunn, has argued that the China Peoples Daily is not a reputable source.
Regarding the use of EIR, I went to the ArbCom decision linked by Calton, and what I see is what Tsunami Butler saw: "Original work which originates from Lyndon LaRouche and his movement may be removed from any Wikipedia article in which it appears other than the article Lyndon LaRouche and other closely related articles." That's as far as it goes. The article we are discussing is specifically exempted. Will Beback says "LaRouche sources may be considered relaible sources for the opinions of LaRouche. They are not reliable sources for the opinions of others, or for other facts." Is this from another ArbCom case that I don't know about, or is it his interpretation of the one that is linked by Calton? Is it Will Beback's view that EIR is not a reliable source for the opinions of people closely associated with his movement (for example, Gene McCarthy, or possibly Oleg Kuznetsov and Boris Bolshakov?)
Some editors, such as NathanDW and more recently Will Beback, have advocated a shorter intro. If that is the case, it should be modeled on the approach used in the intros for other biographies of controversial persons. In the case of George W. Bush, there are two paragraphs describing what makes him notable, followed by a paragraph that is predominately criticism. With Saddam Hussein, there is mild criticism in the third paragraph, characterizing his actions as president. With David Duke, there is one sentence of criticism, followed by rebuttal. In the case of Chip Berlet, there is no criticism in the intro. To have an all-criticism intro violates WP:NPOV#Undue_weight, and is probably in conflict with WP:LIVING. Therefore I am restoring the short intro that was reverted by Mgunn.
Rather than further edit warring at this point, I would ask participants to civilly discuss proposals for how the intro can be further re-written to satisfy all concerns. -- ManEatingDonut 22:46, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Dking's comments are more sensible than Mgunn's, because they touch on what actually makes LaRouche notable. Mgunn wants to pretend that LaRouche has only a small "band of followers"(from the intro he wrote,) no original ideas, and no political impact ... Press coverage in the US of LaRouche is about as informative as Soviet Press coverage of Andrei Sakharov, or South African press coverage of Nelson Mandela, during the periods in which those leaders were ostracized. This stuff has failed to crush LaRouche's movement, but it has frightened American politicians who like LaRouche's ideas. John Conyers, no neophyte, spoke at a LaRouche meeting, and was immediately hit by two tons of crap, so he wilted and said it was a mistake. LaRouche has webcasts every month or so, and it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out who is asking the questions, although the American questioners are usually coyly identified by some sort of affiliation rather than by name (one man who had the cajones to be identified by name was George McGovern. I imagine that Dking will now say that he is "in his dotage.")
There is no evidence that EIR is unreliable. On the contrary, they often scoop the larger press, and investigators like Seymour Hersh often follow their lead. But the day that the mainstream press give LaRouche credit for anything will be a cold day in hell.
I find amusing Dking's attempts to explain away LaRouche's influence. The reason that "senior citizens" are less afraid to publicly side with LaRouche is twofold: first, because the older generation is less cowardly in general than the boomers, and secondly, people who are retired have less to fear from the kind of McCarthyite character assassination which inevitably follows a public association with LaRouche. The public figures that signed the ads for LaRouche's exoneration didn't do so because of debt cancellation or fusion energy -- they did so because they came to see him as a philosopher, and they know why philosophers are imprisoned. It's never because of single-issue campaigns. It's the same reason they made Socrates drink hemlock: "corrupting the youth." -- Moebel 23:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I see that Dennis King, like Chip Berlet, rushes to the defense of the neo-conservatives, which reinforces my belief that both of them are in it strictly for the money. The neo-cons are morally indefensible; they are fascists. This view is now held almost universally around the world. And the most predictably pathetic argument that King and Berlet make is that LaRouche opposes the neo-cons, not because they advocate preventive war, torture, systematic lying, and a police state, but rather because a handful of them are Jewish. King and Berlet ought to be embarassed to spread such a transparent lie. It is also somewhat amazing that they continue to defend the imprisonment of LaRouche and his associates, which was a real stain on the honor of the US (and was publicly called so by leading figures from around the world, as King well knows.)
On the other hand, it is useful that King acknowledges that LaRouche's ideas have significant impact. That ought to be the centerpiece of the intro to the article, and if Wikipedia rules insist that it be balanced with a dollop of horseshit from LaRouche's critics, so be it. -- Moebel 15:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
We need a non-LaRouche source for the following:
Otherwise, we should say that it's according to a LaRouche movement website. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I am writing this particularly for the benefit of Mgunn. The policies which apply here are Wikipedia:Lead section and WP:BLP. From my reading of these policies, I believe that the intro should begin with one or two factual paragraphs on what makes LaRouche notable, followed by the criticism. The criticism against him is not what makes him notable; there is criticism because he is notable. You should avoid a tendency to make this into an "attack article." There is plenty of criticism in the body of the article, and it should be merely summarized, not replicated, in the lead. Also, your assertion about "political extremist" is sourced to a Google search; I believe that it is therefore Original Research, which is a no-no. You should find a source that comments about this and use that instead, and even then, I doubt that it would be noteworthy, certainly not enough for the lead section. -- Tsunami Butler 22:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
This was added, "LaRouche, along with a group of Democratic elected officials [22], sued under the Voting Rights Act, and lost; the court ruled that the First Amendment to the United States Constitution right of free association takes precedence over the Voting Rights Act."
This is a blatantly incorrect reading.
Describing the district court's previous action, the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia wrote,
The United States Court of Appeals proceeded to affirm the dismissal of all LaRouche's claims, except those pertaining to Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act, which the Court of Appeals decided neither it nor the District Court had jurisdiction to hear. The Section 5 claims should properly have come before a three-judge district court, and that portion of the case was remanded for further proceedings. The three judge-court then dismissed all of LaRouche's remaining claims stating, "We conclude that the defendant Democratic National Party is not a covered jurisdiction under the Act, and that the defendant state parties are not required to request preclearance of national party rules."
Though I know it's common on Wikipedia, I'm tired of bogus edits based on sloppy reading and sloppy research. I think a certain person needs to shape up, or ship out. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mgunn ( talk • contribs) 19:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC). (Sorry forgot to sign it...) Mgunn 19:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
1. Please observe WP:CIVIL.
2. The relevant quote was removed in this edit by Will Beback. I tried to summarize it accurately. Read it for yourself, and suggest a better summary: "While the Voting Rights Act is unarguably a statute of importance, it should not be read to extend coverage that would interfere with core associational rights; specifically here, internal national party rules as followed by state parties in a covered jurisdiction...We are guided by the principle that we should construe statutes so as to avoid constitutional questions. It is our plain duty to adopt that construction which will save the statute from constitutional infirmity." [23] Or, since the present version of the article has more extensive quotes than the one that Will Beback objected to, perhaps this quote should be restored as well. -- Tsunami Butler 21:58, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
This is a POV essay:
Is there anything worth saving?-- Cberlet 16:30, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
-- Dking 19:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Does anybody mind if I delete the Ramsey Clark quote? It seems kind of misleading and irrelevant to me, considering that Clark is also a supporter of Slobodan Milosevic and Saddam Hussein and at this point is much better known as an activist than as a former attorney general. P4k 04:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Category:Conspiracy theorists removed per WP:BIO and th charter of the category: the article must clearly state which exactly conspicacy theories the person authored or supported. The article says only that "some critics called him so" Name calling is not valid reason for cathegorizing. `' mikkanarxi 02:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
LaRouche has been pretty scrupulous about his war record, so I am sure he would appreciate it if his followers would pin down the paragraph on World War Two. He did say he could hear guns off aways, which could have been on the India-Burma border or deep inside Burma depending on what month he arrived in the theater. LaRouche's statements on his war service stand in sharp contrast with those of his former disciple, social therapy cult leader Fred Newman, who has claimed to be a "Korean war veteran" even though he did not arrive in Korea until months after the Armistice.-- Dking 04:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
The LaRouche people put out a very interesting book about this back in the early 90s called Travesty (I think it was actually called Travesty: A True Crime Story.) The book was made entirely of the transcripts of recordings made by a former Loudon County Sheriff's Deputy who was working undercover for the FBI, wearing a wire. He was infiltrating the Cult Awareness Network team that kidnapped the Du Pont family member to deprogram him. I believe that some sort of criminal charges were filed against the CAN people. I tried to find it on the web, and found only a few references to it. -- 172.194.167.223 03:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
This case was extensively reported in the Washington DC area media, which should be cited as the source here. As I recall (without checking my files), the purported target of deprogramming was never kidnapped. Four individuals, including the target's father, were arrested for discussing a deprogramming to possibly take place at a future date. The Cult Awareness Network was not involved in these discussions, although one of the arrested individuals was a private eye who had worked with CAN and other anti-cult organizations over the years. At least two persons were convicted, but their convictions may have been overturned or otherwise adjusted. Charges of prosecutorial misconduct emerged. The case was extremely murky.-- Dking 23:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
My memory confused the Dupont Smith case with a subsequent deprogramming case involving Kelly. Kelly was not convicted in the Dupont Smith case. As to the claim by Scientology that Kelly was the "chief of security" of the old CAN, I find this dubious. The paragraph on the Dupont Smith incident in the LaRouche article still needs some reworking since as written it implies that Dupont Smith was actually kidnapped. I don't believe this was the case.-- Dking 21:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I played no role in the 1968 community control of schools battle and made no anti-Semitic statements regarding it. LaRouche has zero documentation that I did so, this is just one of his organization's hundreds of off-the-cuff remarks about me over the years in which I have been called a drug dealer, drug user, drug lobbyist, CIA agent, FBI agent, Cuban agent, British agent, flying saucer buff, occultist, and just about every label they could come up with. Two years before the Columbia strike I was arrested at the gates to Columbia while leading a demonstration that stopped Nazi leader George Lincoln Rockwell from speaking on campus to spread his plan for a new Holocaust. I am removing the section of the LaRouche quote that defames me and I strongly question the motives and integrity of the person who inserted this.-- Dking 01:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Tsunami, most of the examples I gave of LaRouchian anti-Dennis King rhetoric were from the 1980s, the same decade as the LaRouche statement about the 1968 Teachers Strike that I objected to. It is probably true that they tend nowadays to concentrate more on the fact that I received a research grant from Smith Richardson, but all kinds of intemperate stuff is buried in articles you probably missed unless you read every issue cover to cover. The following is a list of recent EIR statements about me, all of which were found by typing in my name in the search box at the EIR/LaRouche web site:
I have said harsh things about LaRouche and it is only to be expected that he retaliates. Alas for him, I can cite his writings as proof of what I say but he has yet to produce a single toke with my DNA on it. Why? Because I simply don't smoke pot, period. As to my being a "creation" of Roy Cohn, my utter loathing for Cohn is obvious from the chapter of my book entitled "To Roy Cohn With Love"; see http://dennisking.org/newamericanfascism.htm -- Dking 00:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Dking, I would like to request that you carefully review WP:COI and especially WP:COI#Citing_oneself. Also, I would request that you log in when citing yourself, rather than doing it anonymously. -- Tsunami Butler 01:46, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Dking has done a major re-write of the criticism section. Please note the template at the top of this page:
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
I have changed this: "Although LaRouche has made a point of seeming to denounce the economic and other policies of Mussolini and Hitler" -- to this: "Although LaRouche has deonounced the economic and other policies of Mussolini and Hitler." The first sentence suggests that the editor who inserted it can read LaRouche's mind, and knows that LaRouche doesn't really mean what he says. This is speculation and un-encyclopediac.
Similarly, I have changed "LaRouche made several attempts to squelch the criticism through libel suits" to "LaRouche filed several libel suits." Please don't dress up the facts with innuendo.
There were also numerous formatting problems. If you want to include the entire title of the article you wrote when you cite it in Wikipedia, you should use the "ref" format.
There are some other, very strange things in there, like claiming that LaRouche has ideas that are modeled on the Nazis, and then adding these footnotes: [27] [28] where LaRouche denounces Nazism and fascism. It is unclear what you are trying to prove with this.
But these things should be discussed in advance, so they don't become edit wars. -- Tsunami Butler 16:28, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
In the "LaRouche in Popular Culture" section, someone has inserted a quote from humorist Dave Barry. The quote is a statement of political opinion about LaRouche rather than an example of popular humor or satire. As such it really doesn't seem to belong in this section. Should it be moved? Removed altogether?-- Dking 15:59, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
The article currently quotes Dean Andromidas, a longtime LaRouche follower writing for EIR, as stating that a former East German agent, Herbert Brehmer, had claimed that the STASI or the KGB had maliciously concocted a story that LaRouche was behind the assassination of Palme. This may be true (but even if it is, it doesn't necessarily absolve LaRouche because Swedish police had other reasons to be suspicious of the EAP and Victor Gunnarsson, regardless of what the STASI may or may not have said). Yet given the murkiness of so much information coming from retired East European spooks nowadays, I think we need a better source for this information than Andromidas and EIR citing an alleged Swedish radio broadcast. Did Brehmer make the allegation in his book? If so, how credible is Brehmer in the eyes of mainstream German journalists? Was Brehmer's radio allegation reported in the mainstream Swedish or German print media? If so, it should definitely be included. Note that I do not intend to remove the Andromidas allegation myself; I'm just raising questions.-- Dking 22:14, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I thought that journalists in most jurisdictions are protected by a shield law from having to name confidential sources, so the failure to name sources in the LaRouche case would not have been an unusual feature of a libel trial. Also, I question the relevance of the information Tsunami has inserted to helping us understand the outcome of the trial, since the issues were (a) the truthfulness of the allegations, (b) whether or not NBC acted with malice, and (c) whether or not LaRouche lost income as a result of the broadcast. If libel attorneys say otherwise, I stand corrected.-- Dking 23:01, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Will Beback, with all due respect, you seem to be going into editing contortions to draw attention away from the fact that this looking for symbolism in science photos cannot be described as anything other than weird, IMO. King acknowleges on this talk page that he uses "decoding," so I don't see why you deleted that term. I think that it is fair to point out that this technique is "unorthodox," another term you deleted. It is certainly the case that more orthodox critics of LaRouche do not point at space photos and conclude that he is a Nazi. There are other features of that article that seem equally wacky to me. I wouldn't think it appropriate to list them all. My original intent was just to say "decoding" and refer the reader to the article.
This section I removed:
If you follow the links that aren't red, you find no evidence that Busemann or Ehricke were Nazis, and in the case of Rudolph, it was contested and evidently he prevailed over those who accused him. Consequently, these references must be seen as slanderous. And since the topic of the paragraph was King's decoding or "unorthodox techniques," the inclusion of this material seems to be a diversionary tactic, anyway.
I think it would be appropriate to discuss LaRouche's support for space research elsewhere in the article, including his relationship with these scientists (mainly Krafft Ehricke and Scherer-- did he actually know any of those others?) I find the old tactic of insinuating that anyone who was German must be a Nazi to be repugnant. I certainly wouldn't want to be thought of as pro-Bush just because I am American. -- Tsunami Butler 00:19, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
To put LaRouche in this category implies that he has gone back to being a conscientious objector, or at the very least a person who is generally opposed to war. He has made it clear in his writings that this is not the case. He has the option, however, of opposing wars that he believes to be immoral or ill-conceived. So he is an anti-Iraq War activist. Whether or not he opposed Vietnam and other wars is irrelevant. If there are categories for opposing Vietnam and those other wars, by all means put him in. -- Tsunami Butler 01:32, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
If a subject of a Wiki biography initiated a lawsuit that resulted in a significant contribution to case law named after that plaintiff, then this fact certainly belongs in the plaintiff's biography. However, here the information is cited to LaRouche publications, which is not acceptable. I suggest the following: that the report on this court ruling be cited to the National Law Journal or other legal journal, and that the mention of the "LaRouche test" also be followed by the correct legal citation (which can probably be found in the North Carolina ruling cited by Will Beback or the legal memorandum cited by Tsunami Butler).-- Dking 20:27, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but this stuff was removed long ago as unsubstantiated. EIR is not a legitimate source for this article. Quinde, who provided the affidavit quoted by EIR, was not even present at the meetings he described. I was present and can testify (as can Chip Berlet) that these were informational meetings only and never resulted in any conspiracy or other concerted action against LaRouche. LaRouche makes much of these meetings but his theory about them--or even the fact that they took place--has not been reported in any print media except publications controlled by LaRouche. Thus the quoting of the Quinde affidavit is original research and not allowed in this article.-- Dking 23:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
"If a non-mainstream theory is so unnotable that mainstream sources have not bothered to comment on it, disparage it, or discuss it, it is not notable enough for Wikipedia.Inventors of fringe theories have in the past used Wikipedia as a forum for promoting their ideas. Existing policies discourage this type of behavior: if the only statements about a fringe theory come from the inventor of that theory, then various "What Wikipedia is not" rules come into play." (From Wikipedia:Fringe theories.) I believe that King's theory that LaRouche is a fascist falls within these guidelines, and should be excluded. -- NathanDW 21:01, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
There are plenty of folks who have called LaRouche "fascist" or "neo-fascist". Daniel Moynihan being perhaps the most prominent.
I'm sure we can find more. - Will Beback · † · 22:50, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
The "fringe theories" policy says that the theory should be commented on in the mainstream press, in order not to be considered "fringe." I don't think that a book review is sufficient. And I also note that the policy warns that fringe theorists may try to promote their pet projects on Wikipedia. I think that it is significant that both King and Berlet have spent considerable time editing and self-citing on Wikipedia. If I were trying to present myself as a "published expert," I would be embarrassed to do what they are doing. -- NathanDW 16:41, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Implanted in this article is a picture of an FBI memo re LaRouche and the Communist Party from October 1973. The article quotes LaRouche as giving a certain interpretation of the FBI memo that is not warranted by the actual text of the memo or by its timing. Since the text of the memo has been included in the article, I think it is not original research to point out that LaRouche's interpretation of the memo is far-fetched. The LaRouchians have had some success on the internet in spreading the urban myth that the FBI and its supposed agents inside the CP plotted to kill LaRouche in 1973 (although LaRouche shortly thereafter began informing on his leftist opponents to Red Squads all over the country as well as to the FBI and the CIA; see King, chapter 24 [32]). This goes hand in hand with the other urban myth--that LaRouche's felony conviction for swindling old ladies, and his reputation for Jew hatred, are all the result of a conspiracy emanating from the apartment of a Manhattan investment banker named John Train. Since urban legends concocted by LaRouche are a part of his life story, I suppose they should be mentioned; but it is incumbent on Wikipedia to make clear that these allegations are of extremely dubious provenance.-- Dking 20:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC) P.S. In October 1973, Operation Mop Up had been over for several months. Self-defense squads at leftist meetings had decisively defeated LaRouche's attack squads. Arrests and indictments had totally demoralized his followers. The NCLC had succeeded in totally isolating itself from the campus and off-campus left (which I think is what LaRouche intended but which made him much less of a threat to the CP). In other words, the crisis was over for the CP and it would have had zero motivation for running the astounding risk of attempting to assassinate LaRouche. (See King, chapter 3 [33].) This is another reason, apart from the ones I gave in my most recent edit to the article, to assume that the FBI memo is speaking of a CP desire to politically expose and isolate LaRouche, not to kill him.-- Dking 20:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
The term "Fascist" was first applied to NCLC as a result of Operation Mopup. I was in the Young Socialist Alliance at this time, following the NCLC assaults on the CP. When the SWP/YSA came to defense of the CP after the CP asked us for help (an historic first, mind you!) we too became victims of their ganster strategy of physical violance and intimination. One meeting that year in Detroit was attacked and parapalegic member of the YSA was beaten up in his wheelchair by the NCLC gangs (reported in The Militant). Basically the article is correct, where ever there was organized defense, we consistantly stomped the NCLCers to pieces. A key turning point was when the NCLC/Larouche started mouthing off about the "sexual impotancy of the Puerto Rican Socialist Party" and the PSP completely when crazy and smashed up several contingents of NCLCers in NY in 1975.
Having said all that, Larouche has made a turn to the left, kind of, coming out in rigerous defense of public health and leadng the fight to save DC General Hospital. His positions in opposition the oil wars is more or less along the lines of other left groups, minus the conspiracy theory stuff. 216.203.27.99 10:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)DavidMIA Feb 7, 2007
LaRouche supporters have shamelessly misrepresented (and attempted to trivialize) my arguments as to why I think LaRouche is best classified as a fascist. I rewrote the paragraphs of this article that mischaracterized my ideas, following closely the text of the actual chapter of my book that had been distorted. If LaRouche's folks think there's now too much Dennis King in this article, they have no one to blame but themselves. I also moved text into chronological order, correcting confusion over dates and approximate time periods that have long plagued this article (but are NOT the result of any conspiracy).-- Dking 00:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Dking, I would like to request for the second time that you carefully review WP:COI and especially WP:COI#Citing_oneself. -- Tsunami Butler 15:46, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Several times on this talk page it says that major changes to the article should be discussed first, because it is considered to be a controversial topic. Dking is making such massive re-writes that it is difficult to keep track of all the changes. I would appreciate it if he would discuss them on the talk page first. -- MaplePorter 01:42, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
As usual, Tsunami's edits are a mixture of good and bad.
In the section on LaRouche's childhood it says he grew up speaking French and German. I have never heard this before. Although I can see how he may have picked up some Quebec French in childhood from his father or paternal grandparents, where would he have learned to speak German as a youngster? I'm not saying the statement is false, just that it should be checked and a citation should be provided. Also, was it LaRouche's father who was a Quebec immigrant--or his grandfather? I can't remember.-- Dking 18:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
This page takes a long time to load on my computer. Does anyone mind if I archive the parts before Sept 27, 2006? -- Tsunami Butler 21:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Dking, would you be so kind as to explain how this paragraph "distorts and trivializes" your theory?
I will reproduce once again your preferred version, so that I may tell you what my objections to it are:
First of all, you simply assert (by saying that you "cited them") that LaRouche is using "certain euphemisms, Orwellian semantic tricks, and examples of symbolic scapegoating." I frankly think that is a load of crap. I have read plenty of LaRouche, and he is very plain-spoken, sometimes egregiously or laboriously so. You are simply throwing up a cloud of verbiage to disguise the fact you are really claiming that he is lying, and that he means something other than what he says. I remind you that originally I was prepared to simply say that you claim that you can "decode" LaRouche, but Will Beback would have none of that, even though it is clear that that is exactly what you are saying. My view is that the short version which you keep deleting is truthful, and the longer one which you prefer is full of "Orwellian semantic tricks" on your own part. It may be that this cannot be resolved with mediation, which I have requested. -- Tsunami Butler 01:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Pro-LaRouche editors on this page have repeatedly made insertions to make it appear that LaRouche's 1987 statement in Munich on dominating the planet through microwave weapons was merely a warning against Soviet machinations. I have reviewed the text of LaRouche's speech as published in EIR, plus an accompanying news artice, "Seminar in Munich looks at radio-frequency weapons," plus a bibliography of previous EIR articles on the weapons technology in question (also accompanying the text of the speech). I have also read over a Feb. 22, 1985 article from New Solidarity on "microwave bombs" (illustrated by one of nutty Professor Bostick's plasmoid "swastikas"). It is clear that prior to LaRouche's Munich speech he and his organization had engaged in a concerted effort to whip up support for a massive crash program to develop such weapons in the United States and Germany. They exaggerated Soviet work in the field and LaRouche himself made two claims in his Munich speech that are now known to be (like most of his predictions) false: First, that perestroika was nothing but a trick to lull the West into inaction; and second, that in "four to five years" a huge revolution in warfare "more awesome than that which exploded over Hiroshima" would be underway, with microwave weapons dominating the "arenas of strategic and tactical conflict." LaRouche discussed both the defensive and offensive capabilities of such weapons (but in apocalyptic terms that almost rendered the difference between offense and defense mute). A statement from his speech now quoted in the text of the Wiki LaRouche bio makes quite clear that he was urging the development of these weapons by Germany and/or by Germany and the United States, not just describing some effort by the Soviets. The quote now says "dominate the world" rather than "dominate the planet." This is not because I misquoted LaRouche in my book, but because LaRouche talked about dominating the "planet" at the beginning of the speech and then repeated himself using the word "world" near the end. Apparently, he wanted to make sure that any aging revanchists in the audience would get the point even if they had snoozed off during part of the proceedings.-- Dking 17:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Dking, you changed MaplePorter's edit, referring to "LaRouche's opposition to the policies of the neo-conservatives," and replaced it with "LaRouche's attacks on the neo-conservatives." This is propagandistic, in two ways: first of all, because you are using the "Orwellian semantic trick" of hiding the fact that LaRouche does in fact oppose the policies of the neo-cons, because then you can insinuate that he opposes them for some reason unrelated to policy. Secondly, when you criticize LaRouche, you call it "criticism," but when LaRouche criticizes someone else, you call it an "attack." This is an encyclopedia, and you have a responsibility to at least make the effort to be neutral and objective. -- Tsunami Butler 22:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Reading this makes me feel like I'm in some weird alternate universe. The Neo-cons promote preventive war, torture, illegal wiretapping of US citizens, the whole package of Hitlerian policies. LaRouche opposes them at a time when most people are afraid to do so. Then Dennis King calls LaRouche a neo-Nazi. This is through-the-looking-glass stuff.
Another thing -- earlier, ManEatingDonut was complaining about student site that was used as a source, because of a "photoshopped" photo superimposing LaRouche on Hitler. I found the very same photo on Dennis King's website. I wonder whether he did the photoshopping himself. I don't think his site meets WP:RS criteria. -- NathanDW 06:37, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Once again, Tsunami Butler has distorted my criticism of LaRouche's attacks on the neocons. The only thing I have written on LaRouche and the Bush admin neocons (and hence the only thing she can refer to under Wiki policy) is in the 2005 report on LaRouche's anti-Semitism I prepared for the Justice for Jeremiah organization. [34] Here in fact is what I wrote:
It is undeniable that a small group of Jewish neoconservative intellectuals at the Pentagon (mostly notably, Under Secretary Paul Wolfowitz) performed an important role in encouraging the Iraq war. However, LaRouche (for whom controversial Jews are meat and potatoes) played on the popular discontent over the war to concoct a conspiracy theory that vastly conflates the role of the neocons and depicts U.S. policy as having been taken over by a giant network of Zionist agents (called "Straussians" after a Jewish professor at the University of Chicago who died in 1973 but has subsequently become the Professor Moriarty of LaRouche's universe). The Straussians are said to be working as agents of the Israeli government and of the "British" (the oligarchy of mostly Jewish financiers operating out of London...). To the delight of LaRouche's Saudi friends, this conspiracy theory has achieved wide circulation in the U.S. media and probably represents the high point ever of LaRouche's influence on public opinion. Somewhere along the way, the proponents of this theory have forgotten that none of the top policy makers--Bush, Cheney, Rice, Powell, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft and the members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff--were Jewish nor were they "Straussians." But in the world view of anti-Semites, the Jews are always invested with magical powers to cloud the minds of gentiles and turn them into puppets.
As can be seen, I focus not on LaRouche's criticism of neocon policy positions but on his conspiracy theory about the neocons. In the compilation of LaRouchian quotes in the report I also give examples of his abusive personal and ethnic attacks on the neocons/Straussians, which include accusing them of treason. Tsunami's description of what I wrote is false, and this is why I have reverted her edit.-- Dking 00:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I would like Dennis and Chip to get out their decoder rings and take a crack at this:
What do you think? Is this "reeking with anti-Semitism?" -- NathanDW 06:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Dking, you have now made hundreds of edits to this article, and I think that you have been careless about following Wikipedia policies, including in particular WP:COI#Citing_oneself and WP:NPOV#Undue_weight. Also, the notice which appears twice on this page, that this is a controversial topic and major changes should be discussed before being applied to the article. All of this has a bearing as well upon WP:BLP, which has recently become a particular priority at Wikipedia. I am re-posting this, which I think is highly relevant:
From WP:LIVING:
Editors should be on the lookout for biased or malicious content in biographies or biographical information. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability.
The views of critics should be represented if their views are relevant to the subject's notability and are based on reliable sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics' material. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one. If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article.
Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of positive or negative claims that rely on association.
-- Tsunami Butler 03:27, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Tsunami says that I have inserted "hundreds" of edits in this article. The overwhelming majority of my edits (which are not as many as T claims) have involved format, chronology, chaotic and repetitious organization of information, typos, citations, and noncontroversial or relatively low-controversy factual matters--or simple stylistic retooling on the few really controversial inserts. It is true that I have disputed some points fiercely, mostly relating to the efforts of LaRouche's followers to misrepresent my work in the paragraph they inserted in this article (although it really belongs in the article on LaRouche's political views) regarding code language, symbolic imagery, etc. As I have said previously on this discussion page, the self-citations I have made (and my adding of a section on LaRouche's relations to former Nazi scientists etc.) were necessitated by the distortions introduced by followers of LaRouche. Here is why I strongly object to MaplePorter's (MP's) version:
1. MP makes it seem that my arguments about LaRouche's anti-Semitism are based solely or primarily on code language. In fact, I base my analysis solidly on the many undisputed examples of anti-Semitism in LaRouche's writings, and on the many instances of transparent euphemisms such as "Zionist" (used with terms such as "nauseating"), "Zionist-British organism", Israelis "a hundred times worse than Hitler," "folks who cooked up the hoax known as the Old Testament", etc. that any reasonable person who is not either a bigot or a programmed ideologue would instantly recognize as anti-Semitic.
2. MP suggests that the paragraph about coded discourse should somehow exist behind a Chinese wall with no discussion of open anti-Semitism and the interpenetration of open and code antiSemitism in the writings of the LaRouche movement. In fact, open, lightly coded and more esoterically coded discourse almost always coexist in the self-styled "classics" of the LaRouche movement; you cannot analyze one without the other.
3. MP attempts to trivialize my analysis of LaRouche's military and political fantasies by (a) conflating them with my remarks on symbolic imagery in LaRouche publications (and with a citation only to Chapter 10 ("Old Nazis and New Dreams")) and (b) suggesting that my analysis is based on using a decoding method. In fact, (a) my analysis of LaRouche's military and political fantasies are primarily contained in an entirely different chapter (Chapter 7, "The Grand Design") albeit with a brief reference to "Thule" symbolism; (b) LaRouche's adolescent fantasy of conquering the world is right out in the open, not in code language at all, although it is frequently wrapped in turgid phraseology. (The only thing he "codes" is the identity of the object of his extermination campaign--international Jewry. If he had not coded this he would never have gotten entre to the Reagan administration or even to many of the Third World cocaine dictators his followers love to hobnob with.)
My reference to a four-pronged plasmoid glowing with light was explicitly described in Chapter 10 as symbolizing LaRouche's attempt to form an alliance with former Nazi scientists and military officers to defend Nazi war criminals and to demonize Nazis hunters such as Eli Rosenbaum as KGB agents, traitors and worse. (And I carefully pointed out in Chap. 10 the image's provenance as a Lawrence Livermore photo, noting however that LaRouche was using it in a political context in political propaganda journals; I also noted that LaRouche himself was enamored with cosmic spirals, which is a somewhat different obsession.)
4. MP included a quote from Daniel Pipes saying he disagrees with me about the meaning of "British" in LaRouche's writings. Fine, I'm sure there are many other people who don't agree with me on this (or only agree privately, like the late Irwin Suall, who came around after reading Richard Hofstader's account of how Anglophobia and anti-Semitism were merged in the propaganda of American anti-Semites beginning in the late 19th century). But the paragraph as originally written by a LaRouche follower also refers to my analysis of LaRouche's world domination fantasies, while the version I wrote adds that LaRouche's code language is an extension of his open anti-Semitism. So it is necessary to point out that (a) Pipes agrees LaRouche is anti-Semitic and (b) Pipes agrees that LaRouche has military fantasies about total war (which Pipes could see were phrased openly in the sense of total war against Britain).
The underlying problem here is that LaRouche's followers, with all their obvious sincerity, are simply not capable of describing my ideas and analyses accurately. They are programmed not to see what is clearly in front of their eyes. I am reverting MP's version of the disputed subsection once again.-- Dking 21:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Mgunn, if you would be so kind as to simply start here and read to the end of the page, I think you will understand what the dispute is about. I asked Dking, "Please don't dress up the facts with innuendo." He can't seem to help himself. In the edit that he keeps reverting (with your assistance,) he refers to "LaRouche's highly imaginative fantasies about conquering the world" as if it were a fact. He attempts, through creative writing, to make his assertings about a "glowing, four pronged object" more believable, when in fact, he is describing a barred spiral galaxy and a fusion experiment, appearing in science articles, and those are the facts of the matter (that he looks at these things and sees swastikas tells us more about himself than about LaRouche.) I have on numerous occasions asked Dking to observe in particular WP:COI#Citing_oneself and WP:NPOV#Undue_weight, and he seems nonetheless bent on transforming this article into a POV essay.
Not all of his edits have been of this type, but too many have, and he should content himself with the fact that there is at least one external link to his website. I say "at least one," because I am not convinced that we need as many as we presently have. -- Tsunami Butler 00:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I was cited in this article for quotes from LaRouche's 1979 autobiography. It seems to me that there is no reason not to directly quote the subject of a Wiki biography's own autobiography, as long as one makes clear if there is published evidence that refutes a particular statement and as long as the autobiographer's claim is not outlandish. So I have directly cited LaRouche and in the course of doing so have found a quote (about his imaginary conversations in his head with great philosophers) that I think both his critics and supporters will find fascinating. I wish I hadn't missed this one when writing my book on LaRouche.-- Dking 23:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I gave us a few days to cool off on the edit war that seemed to be beginning. I think in general when we get into such an impasse the best thing for everyone is to concentrate for a short time on noncontroversial or low controversy things (there are a huge number of problems with the article in terms of style, organization, factual errors and lack of adequate citation that can be improved at any time). But I have restored the two disputed paragraph to my version because I sincerely believe that MP has misrepresented what I actually wrote in my book. Again, I never based my case for LaRouche being anti-Semitic solely or even primarily on code language. Indeed, much of his code language is obvious ant-Semitism (as Bartley pointed out in the WSJ) but just expressed in a "polite" way to prevent triggering too much outrage (see LaRouche's own published comments on the usefulness of euphemisms). I didn't use the four-pronged object to illustrate LaRouche's military conceptions but suggested it symbolized his efforts to ally with Nazi scientists and to defend Nazi criminals (I gave the exact quote on this, MP did not). My reference to a "four-pronged object glowing with light" is not "creative writing" added to this article, but the actual description in my book. I did not cover up the fact that this picture is of a fusion experiment but stated that fact in my book; the issue is not the provenance of this photo resembling a swastika but the circumstances under which it appeared repeatedly in LaRouche propaganda publications in the middle 1980s when LaRouch was forming alliances with "former" Nazis. I never said LaRouche had a "secret" plan for his conquer-the-world fantasies; in fact, it is all out in the open, as quoted from his own writings in my Chapter 7, which MP failed to cite because it didn't fit with his own description of my findings. Finally, these two paragraphs as inherited from MP's first version contain the linked arguments that (a) I concentrate on code language and (b) I use the analysis of code language to bolster my theory about LaRouche's military dreams. Given these assertions, it is misleading to quote Daniel Pipes as disagreeing with me about a certain code word without also pointing out that he arrived at findings similar to mine regarding LaRouche's military dreams. Reverted again. -- Dking 03:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
To put things in perspective, Bartley is the former editor of the WSJ, whereas your opinion piece appeared back at the time of the John Train salon, which appears to have been your 15 minutes of fame, over 20 years ago. Nonetheless, there is only one citation to Bartley in this article as compared to 23 for Dennis King, so count your blessings.
There are other objections I have to your version which I forgot to list earlier today:
With the exception of 'mikkanarxi, I don't believe anyone on this talk page has disputed the claim that LaRouche is a conspiracy theorist. What this debate demonstrates, however, is that Dennis King is probably more of a conspiracy theorist than LaRouche is. -- Tsunami Butler 21:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the following points are indisputable:
(1) Many notable individuals and groups have made allegations of anti-semitism, euphamisms etc... This is an extremely common (if not mainstream) view.
(2) Dennis King has the most notable third party book on LaRouche. (It is a reliable source.)
(3) Dennis King can more accurately describe what he said in his book than other people.
From these three premises, you reach several logical conclusions:
(1b) These allegations should be included because it is a notable controversy. Anti-semitism etc.. were part of the reason the DNC wouldn't accept LaRouche delegates (whether or not you agree with the allegations, their existence is important to the biography of LaRouche).
(1c) As is the case with other controversies, I think there should be some text that these allegations are disputed by LaRouche.
(2b) Because Dennis King's book is reliable and notable, it is probably the best base source to use for describing these type of allegations.
(3b) Almost by definition, Dennis King's version of what Dennis King's book said is going to be far more accurate than a LaRouche follower's version of what Dennis King's book said. Dennis King's edits to text describing his own book and own allegations should clearly be accepted.
I therefore revert back to DKing's version. Mgunn 19:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Mgunn, you requested a list of my specific suggestions to Dking's version of the "coded discourse" paragraph. You will find the list here. Please note that I also cite the relevant Wikipedia policies that apply. I would encourage you to familiarize yourself with these policies, as it is useful to refer to them when attempting to resolve a dispute. Please also bear in mind that the allegations of anti-Semitism are noted in the previous section ("Criticism") and in more detail at the "Political Views" article. The disputed paragraph deals specifically with "coded discourse," and other, unrelated allegations, such as Pipes' comments on LaRouche's conspiracy theorizing, should not be interjected there.-- Tsunami Butler 02:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
[38]It is argued that the culmination of the persecution of the Jews in the Nazi holocaust proves that Zionism is so eessential to "Jewish survival" that any anti-Zionist is therefore not only an anti-Semite, but that any sort of criminal action is excusable against anti-Zionists in memory of the mythical "six million Jewish victims" of the Nazi "holocaust."
This is worse than sophistry. It is a lie. True, about a million and a half Jews did die as a result of the Nazi policy of labor-intensive "appropriate technology" for the employment of "inferior races," a small fraction of the tens of million of others - especially Slavs - who were murdered in the same way Jewish refugee Felix Rohaytin proposes today. Even on a relative scale, what the Nazis did to Jewish victims was mild compared with the virtual extermination of gypsies and the butchery of Communists.
Allegations of anti-Semitism should be noted in the "Criticism" section (as they are,) and described in more detail in the "Political Views" article (as they are, including the examples you cite.) However, the "swindle" quote from his wife appears to be out of context, as many of King's quotes from LaRouche typically are. The actual context - criticism of the NBC miniseries by the same name - is found at Helga Zepp-LaRouche. -- MaplePorter 15:37, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Informational Notice - USER:Charles8854 has been indefinitely blocked from editing Wikipedia. / Blaxthos 05:44, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
As the recipient of several swings of these weapons during Operation Mop-up, and as a Martial Artist myself, I want to state they are NOT Korean as indicated in the article. Nunchucks are Okinawan, where most of Japan's hand weapons (but not the Katana) originaed from. When they unlock this article, please correct the error. 216.203.27.99 11:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Big reverts don't lead to consensus editing. Please edit a section at a time, and explain each edit. Even better, work towards a consensus version that is at least minimally acceptable to everyone. This biography is very long already so I discourage the addition of new material that can be handled in an existing or new article. We should keep this article focused on the events of the subject's life and keep the bulk of his philosophy in "political views" while details of party histories should go in the party articles. - Will Beback · † · 08:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm afraid that on the ArbCom case, Mgunn is confusing Dennis King (Dking) with Chip Berlet (Cberlet.) This is understandable. -- MaplePorter 06:39, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I am the author of one of the two disputed versions of "Coded discourse," so I have written a compromise version which I hope will break the deadlock. Here are the changes I made:
If Dking will provide a quote in context from LaRouche where LaRouche says he has a plot for "conquering the world," that "centers on eliminating a Jewish banking oligarchy," I will elimate the word "secretly." I have read plenty of LaRouche, and even at his most abstruse I have never seen him even hint at such a thing.
I hope that this compromise version will get us all out of the revert loop:
-- MaplePorter 06:55, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I read LaRouche, and see echoes of Hitler and Mussolini. Why believe the claims of a crank and convicted felon?--Cberlet 01:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC) --Cberlet 01:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Is it NPOV for someone that says such obviously biased and harsh words about someone they never even met to be editing an article about them?... Do these people even have any non negative things to say about this guy? And do they even have a life outside of obsessing over and smearing that guy? I will admit Larouche is no perfect angel, but even so, he does not warrant such demonization in a simple biography... If such is allowed on this page, then perhaps the George W Bush and other republican pages need to have a littler harsher criticisms on them... Just some thoughts... The edits to the page ought to be thought over very long and hard, instead of just throwing out smears or nonsense from either side , pro or anti Larouche onto it... Vipercat 02:44, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I would like to second MaplePorter's request that Dking "provide a quote in context from LaRouche where LaRouche says he has a plot for "conquering the world," that "centers on eliminating a Jewish banking oligarchy." I am very interested to see whether he can produce such a thing. -- NathanDW 21:10, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I can see that there has been a long debate about this issue in this discussion group, and it seems that the main person arguing in favor of Dennis King is Dennis King himself, which seems sort of inappropriate. I would like to add my thoughts:
I have read some of King's stuff, and I have often wondered whether he really believes what he writes. He takes about 1% of LaRouche's writings and quotes it out of context to support his claims, which are readily refuted by the other 99% of LaRouche's writings (ignored by King.) In my opinion, the matter is simple: the policies that LaRouche advocates establish him as an anti-fascist. He uses as a reference point the constitution's commitment to the General Welfare, which is the opposite of fascism.
This enclopedia article should provide a balanced view of LaRouche, and it seems that a too-high percentage of the article is devoted to King's claims.
I realize that at the moment the article is protected from editing, but I would like to point out that in the last edit made by King, there are logical fallacies. It is true that LaRouche is anti-British, but how does that make him pro-fascist? It is true that LaRouche claims Hitler was playing footsie with the Brits (others have similar theories,) but how does that make him pro-fascist? I think King is wrong in what he says about the figures on the holocaust, because LaRouche was making a point that most people were worked to death (not simply exterminated) under the slave labor policy, which is often ignored by popular histories that cover up that fact. It's beside the point, though, because either way it does not prove that LaRouche is pro-fascist. And as far as I'm concerned, LaRouche's attacks on "various public figures in post-war Britain and America" is proof that he is anti-fascist, not pro-fascist -- look at the current leadership of those two countries!
Also, the section called "LaRouche's 1980s alliance with former Peenemunde V-2 scientists" contains misleading statements. King refers to John Demjanjuk as "Ivan the Terrible" when in fact he was acquitted of that charge in Israeli court, and the OSI admitted that it had forged documents to back the charge. Don't tell me that King didn't know that when he wrote it. The other two guys, Linnas and Soobzokov, were both killed before they could stand trial, so the presumption of guilt on King's part is wrong -- I suspect that King knows this too. Of course, LaRouche had no political connection to these three men -- he merely joined the chorus of voices who protested the star chamber tactics of the OSI. And this whole section is not an especially notable part of LaRouche's bio -- he was involved in all sorts of "alliances," with farm activists, civil rights leaders, union groups, and so on. King cherry picks events from LaRouche's life to back up his claims. This article should be a bio, not an article about King's claims. -- HonourableSchoolboy 01:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
This page has been reprotected, since the edit warring started right after it was uprotected. This is kind of ridiculous; we are all mature editors, we should be able to work out our disagreements through discussion. Please take this opportunity to remember that it pays to discuss before editing, for hopefully then the page can stay unprotected and stable. -- Natalya 15:16, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
My thinking is that Dking's accusations should be presented in list form, in the criticism section, without turning it into a essay. Then there should be a link to "political views of Lyndon LaRouche." King's accusations are all there already, but with appropriate rebuttals from LaRouche. There is no reason to replicate the whole thing in the bio article, when we have another article which is a (slightly) more appropriate forum for presenting King's theories about LaRouche's hidden agenda, coded messages, and so forth. -- Tsunami Butler 15:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
LaRouche's supporters claim that I did not reply to their edits during the first time the article was locked and they appear to have used this as a justification for starting their policy of block deletions and replacements once again while the article was briefly unlocked. Anyone who cares can go back and review my postings over the past month and see that I replied to their edits repeatedly, in detail, with no avail. Now they have brought in yet another LaRouche follower with the predictable name of "Honourable Schoolboy" (yes, guys, we already know that you regard most of the British public school toffs as "dishonorable," you don't have to keep reminding us) to bolster their forces, giving them four people with unlimited time to censor articles relating to LaRouche. Honorable Schoolboy removed the section on LaRouche and the Nazi scientists before the article was relocked and now they are talking about how this belongs on the page about LaRouche's political views. I beg to differ. LaRouche waged a campaign to defend Nazi war criminals and to glorify Operation Paperclip Nazi scientists for at least 15 years. He claims to have revered some of these unrepentent guys. He put their pictures next to his in the New Federalist as victims of the OSI cabal (the cabal is represented by pictures of three Jews). He caused his newspaper to publish tirades saying that Rep. Elizabeth Holtzman, sponsor of the federal law on Nazi war crimes, bears the mark of the Anti-Christ. This stuff is an important part of LaRouche's biography reflecting his deepest convictions and fantasies. My paragraph on it is properly sourced and should be restored forthwith, and the LaRouche mischaracterizations of my book (saying I only accused LaRouche of "coded" anti-Semitism and of a "secret" plan for world power) in the other disputed paragraph should likewise be summarily replaced with the accurate, properly sourced description I provided. LaRouche's followers should not be allowed to dismiss the numerous examples in my book of LaRouche's open Jew-hatred and my citations of his openly published military fantasies as if such evidence does not exist.-- Dking 23:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I would like to add to the Further Reading section the following: "Lyndon LaRouche's Raid on Democracy" article by Eugene H. Methvin in August 1986 Reader's Digest
I apologize in advance for jumping in the middle of the dispute but I just have to say something. I know little if anything about LaRouche. I'm not American, I've vaguely heard about LaRouche from time to time but I really have no opinion on the subject. I come here looking for information and what I get is an article with clearly undue weight given to criticism, with two of the active editors of the page having been sued for defamation by LaRouche and where a majority of the sources are linked to these two editors. Whatever happened to avoiding conflicts of interest? Frankly, my reaction is "whatever this article is saying, I can't trust it". I'm not saying the info is incorrect, as I said I don't have enough background to really say. What I do know is that I don't trust an article that is so blatantly influenced by editors with an obvious slant against LaRouche. Now it may very well be that there are also people involved here with close ties to LaRouche and I suspect that tendentious editing will tend to attract more tendentious editing. In any case, as far as I'm concerned this article falls into the junk bin and might just as well be re-started from scratch. Pascal.Tesson 20:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I am here from the Cabal to mediate. Due to the fact that this page is enormous, I have created /medcab06-07 to discuss on. This will allow easier review by parties. Please correct me if I am wrong, but the main points of contention have to do with Dking's edits. G e o. Talk to me 03:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The LaRouche editors are attempting to create a red herring. They say that the issue is an attempt by myself to aggressively "dominate" this article. I think any fair minded person who goes back and reviews the record of my edits on this article over the past several weeks will see that I have been concerned with proper sourcing, have made many corrections of a factual nature, have raised questions about particular points in hopes others would make the corrections, have attempted to organize some sections in a more logical fashion, and have provided detailed explanations of contested edits. I have aggressively opposed attempts by LaRouche editors to misrepresent my work (for instance, the canard that I provide no examples of direct LaRouchian anti-Semitism), as any author would do. It should be noted that this article has been under dispute for about three years and the LaRouchians earlier tried, unsuccessfully, to make me the issue. (I was not at the time editing on this article and only began to do so at the end of 2006.) The issue is not Dennis King--the issue is that properly sourced and factually accurate material is being removed from this article and replaced by improperly sourced and factually inaccurate material, and that this is being done by at least four supporters of LaRouche acting together with a clear agenda of sanitizing the biography of a convicted felon whose political extremism and anti-Semitism are well documented by a variety of respected sources on both the right and the left.-- Dking 18:40, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
P.S. Honorable Schoolboy complains that I describe him as being part of a four-person pro-LaRouche task force trying to dominate this artice. Well, let me quote pro-LaRouche editor Tsunami Butler: "The other side of the edit war was a group of editors who might be described as either pro-LaRouche or, depending on your frame of reference, anti-Defamation. They are myself, MaplePorter, HonorableSchoolboy, and Nathan DW." Talk to me So let's have no more of this silly pretending that no cooperative campaign to defend LaRouche is being conducted, and that Honorable Schoolboy and Nathan DW [ [43]] are merely objective, disinterested third parties.-- Dking 18:57, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I have been reading up on Wikipedia policy, and I think that this article is probably in violation of a number of guidelines. To begin with, the following should be considered:
From WP:LIVING:
Editors should be on the lookout for biased or malicious content in biographies or biographical information. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability.
The views of critics should be represented if their views are relevant to the subject's notability and are based on reliable sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics' material. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one. If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article.
Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of positive or negative claims that rely on association.
From
WP:RS:
Certain red flags should prompt editors to examine the sources for a given claim.
Exceptional claims should be supported by multiple credible and verifiable sources, especially with regard to historical events or politically-charged issues.
____
With this in mind, I think a number of the critical passages should go. To begin with, the Wohlforth quote where he says that LaRouche's support for American System is really just support for Nazism. This would be a case where exceptional claims require exceptional evidence. -- ManEatingDonut 15:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Is Totse.com a reliable source? [17] - Will Beback · † · 07:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
This is for the benefit of Mgunn: you might want to review the previous discussion about the intro. First of all, the quote about China is from the China People's Daily, not EIR. There is a link so that you may read it for yourself. There is also a link to the Russia TV website, but you need to know Russian to pursue that one. Secondly, public messages to EIR, whether from Gene McCarthy or the comments made by the Russian guy in a webcast, are not subjective evaluations by the LaRouche movement, but quotes, and I don't see how they can be disputed. Finally (and this may not be entirely relevant to a discussion of the intro,) according to SlimVirgin the ArbCom said that EIR and LaRouche publications may be used as sources in articles about LaRouche. As you can see above, this has all been discussed and negotiated quite a bit, and as the template says, please don't make major changes without discussing first. -- ManEatingDonut 20:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Two of the items I removed were sourced by the Larouche Execute Intelligence Review, a publication which is cited NOWHERE in academia and NOWHERE in the mainstream media. People can call it what they want, but it is not a reputable source for statements of fact. This is not opinion, this is reality. The validity of the statement I removed has been repeatedly questioned on this talk page, and it should be removed. On the China's People Daily reference, that article contians AN ALMOST EXACT COPY of the wikipedia article. This is a blatant circular reference (and IMHO is particularly egregious). The wikipedia article cites a china's people daily article that is a copy of an earlier version of the wikipedia article. Both of these vague, misleading, inaccurate, and inproperly sourced lines should be removed. -- Mgunn November 23, 2006
The line, "His imprisonment was protested by public figures from around the world" has no sources. Which public figures? (The Ramsey Clark stuff is insufficient to backup that claim because Ramsey Clark is a US citizen and was representing Larouche in a legal capacity.) If justification for this statement cannot be found, it should also be removed. -- Mgunn November 23, 2006
As I understand it, the policy on the Executive Intelligence Review (EIR) is that it can be used to explain the viewpoints of Larouche and attribute claims to Larouche, but nothing else because it is not a reliable source. eg. You could say... "Larouche claims X" and cite the the EIR but you cannot say "X" then cite the EIR. If the EIR is indeed unreliable, all material that is based on it should be:
Does Wikipedia consider the Executive Intelligence Review a reliable source? Is my understanding of how an unreliable source is dealt with correct? - Mgunn November 23, 2006
First of all, not all the material that is being deleted by Mgunn or 172 comes from EIR. For example, the stuff about meetings with third world leaders is not disputed. It is referenced in the Washington Post article, and even by Dennis King. No one, other than perhaps Mgunn, has argued that the China Peoples Daily is not a reputable source.
Regarding the use of EIR, I went to the ArbCom decision linked by Calton, and what I see is what Tsunami Butler saw: "Original work which originates from Lyndon LaRouche and his movement may be removed from any Wikipedia article in which it appears other than the article Lyndon LaRouche and other closely related articles." That's as far as it goes. The article we are discussing is specifically exempted. Will Beback says "LaRouche sources may be considered relaible sources for the opinions of LaRouche. They are not reliable sources for the opinions of others, or for other facts." Is this from another ArbCom case that I don't know about, or is it his interpretation of the one that is linked by Calton? Is it Will Beback's view that EIR is not a reliable source for the opinions of people closely associated with his movement (for example, Gene McCarthy, or possibly Oleg Kuznetsov and Boris Bolshakov?)
Some editors, such as NathanDW and more recently Will Beback, have advocated a shorter intro. If that is the case, it should be modeled on the approach used in the intros for other biographies of controversial persons. In the case of George W. Bush, there are two paragraphs describing what makes him notable, followed by a paragraph that is predominately criticism. With Saddam Hussein, there is mild criticism in the third paragraph, characterizing his actions as president. With David Duke, there is one sentence of criticism, followed by rebuttal. In the case of Chip Berlet, there is no criticism in the intro. To have an all-criticism intro violates WP:NPOV#Undue_weight, and is probably in conflict with WP:LIVING. Therefore I am restoring the short intro that was reverted by Mgunn.
Rather than further edit warring at this point, I would ask participants to civilly discuss proposals for how the intro can be further re-written to satisfy all concerns. -- ManEatingDonut 22:46, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Dking's comments are more sensible than Mgunn's, because they touch on what actually makes LaRouche notable. Mgunn wants to pretend that LaRouche has only a small "band of followers"(from the intro he wrote,) no original ideas, and no political impact ... Press coverage in the US of LaRouche is about as informative as Soviet Press coverage of Andrei Sakharov, or South African press coverage of Nelson Mandela, during the periods in which those leaders were ostracized. This stuff has failed to crush LaRouche's movement, but it has frightened American politicians who like LaRouche's ideas. John Conyers, no neophyte, spoke at a LaRouche meeting, and was immediately hit by two tons of crap, so he wilted and said it was a mistake. LaRouche has webcasts every month or so, and it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out who is asking the questions, although the American questioners are usually coyly identified by some sort of affiliation rather than by name (one man who had the cajones to be identified by name was George McGovern. I imagine that Dking will now say that he is "in his dotage.")
There is no evidence that EIR is unreliable. On the contrary, they often scoop the larger press, and investigators like Seymour Hersh often follow their lead. But the day that the mainstream press give LaRouche credit for anything will be a cold day in hell.
I find amusing Dking's attempts to explain away LaRouche's influence. The reason that "senior citizens" are less afraid to publicly side with LaRouche is twofold: first, because the older generation is less cowardly in general than the boomers, and secondly, people who are retired have less to fear from the kind of McCarthyite character assassination which inevitably follows a public association with LaRouche. The public figures that signed the ads for LaRouche's exoneration didn't do so because of debt cancellation or fusion energy -- they did so because they came to see him as a philosopher, and they know why philosophers are imprisoned. It's never because of single-issue campaigns. It's the same reason they made Socrates drink hemlock: "corrupting the youth." -- Moebel 23:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I see that Dennis King, like Chip Berlet, rushes to the defense of the neo-conservatives, which reinforces my belief that both of them are in it strictly for the money. The neo-cons are morally indefensible; they are fascists. This view is now held almost universally around the world. And the most predictably pathetic argument that King and Berlet make is that LaRouche opposes the neo-cons, not because they advocate preventive war, torture, systematic lying, and a police state, but rather because a handful of them are Jewish. King and Berlet ought to be embarassed to spread such a transparent lie. It is also somewhat amazing that they continue to defend the imprisonment of LaRouche and his associates, which was a real stain on the honor of the US (and was publicly called so by leading figures from around the world, as King well knows.)
On the other hand, it is useful that King acknowledges that LaRouche's ideas have significant impact. That ought to be the centerpiece of the intro to the article, and if Wikipedia rules insist that it be balanced with a dollop of horseshit from LaRouche's critics, so be it. -- Moebel 15:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
We need a non-LaRouche source for the following:
Otherwise, we should say that it's according to a LaRouche movement website. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I am writing this particularly for the benefit of Mgunn. The policies which apply here are Wikipedia:Lead section and WP:BLP. From my reading of these policies, I believe that the intro should begin with one or two factual paragraphs on what makes LaRouche notable, followed by the criticism. The criticism against him is not what makes him notable; there is criticism because he is notable. You should avoid a tendency to make this into an "attack article." There is plenty of criticism in the body of the article, and it should be merely summarized, not replicated, in the lead. Also, your assertion about "political extremist" is sourced to a Google search; I believe that it is therefore Original Research, which is a no-no. You should find a source that comments about this and use that instead, and even then, I doubt that it would be noteworthy, certainly not enough for the lead section. -- Tsunami Butler 22:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
This was added, "LaRouche, along with a group of Democratic elected officials [22], sued under the Voting Rights Act, and lost; the court ruled that the First Amendment to the United States Constitution right of free association takes precedence over the Voting Rights Act."
This is a blatantly incorrect reading.
Describing the district court's previous action, the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia wrote,
The United States Court of Appeals proceeded to affirm the dismissal of all LaRouche's claims, except those pertaining to Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act, which the Court of Appeals decided neither it nor the District Court had jurisdiction to hear. The Section 5 claims should properly have come before a three-judge district court, and that portion of the case was remanded for further proceedings. The three judge-court then dismissed all of LaRouche's remaining claims stating, "We conclude that the defendant Democratic National Party is not a covered jurisdiction under the Act, and that the defendant state parties are not required to request preclearance of national party rules."
Though I know it's common on Wikipedia, I'm tired of bogus edits based on sloppy reading and sloppy research. I think a certain person needs to shape up, or ship out. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mgunn ( talk • contribs) 19:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC). (Sorry forgot to sign it...) Mgunn 19:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
1. Please observe WP:CIVIL.
2. The relevant quote was removed in this edit by Will Beback. I tried to summarize it accurately. Read it for yourself, and suggest a better summary: "While the Voting Rights Act is unarguably a statute of importance, it should not be read to extend coverage that would interfere with core associational rights; specifically here, internal national party rules as followed by state parties in a covered jurisdiction...We are guided by the principle that we should construe statutes so as to avoid constitutional questions. It is our plain duty to adopt that construction which will save the statute from constitutional infirmity." [23] Or, since the present version of the article has more extensive quotes than the one that Will Beback objected to, perhaps this quote should be restored as well. -- Tsunami Butler 21:58, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
This is a POV essay:
Is there anything worth saving?-- Cberlet 16:30, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
-- Dking 19:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Does anybody mind if I delete the Ramsey Clark quote? It seems kind of misleading and irrelevant to me, considering that Clark is also a supporter of Slobodan Milosevic and Saddam Hussein and at this point is much better known as an activist than as a former attorney general. P4k 04:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Category:Conspiracy theorists removed per WP:BIO and th charter of the category: the article must clearly state which exactly conspicacy theories the person authored or supported. The article says only that "some critics called him so" Name calling is not valid reason for cathegorizing. `' mikkanarxi 02:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
LaRouche has been pretty scrupulous about his war record, so I am sure he would appreciate it if his followers would pin down the paragraph on World War Two. He did say he could hear guns off aways, which could have been on the India-Burma border or deep inside Burma depending on what month he arrived in the theater. LaRouche's statements on his war service stand in sharp contrast with those of his former disciple, social therapy cult leader Fred Newman, who has claimed to be a "Korean war veteran" even though he did not arrive in Korea until months after the Armistice.-- Dking 04:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
The LaRouche people put out a very interesting book about this back in the early 90s called Travesty (I think it was actually called Travesty: A True Crime Story.) The book was made entirely of the transcripts of recordings made by a former Loudon County Sheriff's Deputy who was working undercover for the FBI, wearing a wire. He was infiltrating the Cult Awareness Network team that kidnapped the Du Pont family member to deprogram him. I believe that some sort of criminal charges were filed against the CAN people. I tried to find it on the web, and found only a few references to it. -- 172.194.167.223 03:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
This case was extensively reported in the Washington DC area media, which should be cited as the source here. As I recall (without checking my files), the purported target of deprogramming was never kidnapped. Four individuals, including the target's father, were arrested for discussing a deprogramming to possibly take place at a future date. The Cult Awareness Network was not involved in these discussions, although one of the arrested individuals was a private eye who had worked with CAN and other anti-cult organizations over the years. At least two persons were convicted, but their convictions may have been overturned or otherwise adjusted. Charges of prosecutorial misconduct emerged. The case was extremely murky.-- Dking 23:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
My memory confused the Dupont Smith case with a subsequent deprogramming case involving Kelly. Kelly was not convicted in the Dupont Smith case. As to the claim by Scientology that Kelly was the "chief of security" of the old CAN, I find this dubious. The paragraph on the Dupont Smith incident in the LaRouche article still needs some reworking since as written it implies that Dupont Smith was actually kidnapped. I don't believe this was the case.-- Dking 21:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I played no role in the 1968 community control of schools battle and made no anti-Semitic statements regarding it. LaRouche has zero documentation that I did so, this is just one of his organization's hundreds of off-the-cuff remarks about me over the years in which I have been called a drug dealer, drug user, drug lobbyist, CIA agent, FBI agent, Cuban agent, British agent, flying saucer buff, occultist, and just about every label they could come up with. Two years before the Columbia strike I was arrested at the gates to Columbia while leading a demonstration that stopped Nazi leader George Lincoln Rockwell from speaking on campus to spread his plan for a new Holocaust. I am removing the section of the LaRouche quote that defames me and I strongly question the motives and integrity of the person who inserted this.-- Dking 01:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Tsunami, most of the examples I gave of LaRouchian anti-Dennis King rhetoric were from the 1980s, the same decade as the LaRouche statement about the 1968 Teachers Strike that I objected to. It is probably true that they tend nowadays to concentrate more on the fact that I received a research grant from Smith Richardson, but all kinds of intemperate stuff is buried in articles you probably missed unless you read every issue cover to cover. The following is a list of recent EIR statements about me, all of which were found by typing in my name in the search box at the EIR/LaRouche web site:
I have said harsh things about LaRouche and it is only to be expected that he retaliates. Alas for him, I can cite his writings as proof of what I say but he has yet to produce a single toke with my DNA on it. Why? Because I simply don't smoke pot, period. As to my being a "creation" of Roy Cohn, my utter loathing for Cohn is obvious from the chapter of my book entitled "To Roy Cohn With Love"; see http://dennisking.org/newamericanfascism.htm -- Dking 00:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Dking, I would like to request that you carefully review WP:COI and especially WP:COI#Citing_oneself. Also, I would request that you log in when citing yourself, rather than doing it anonymously. -- Tsunami Butler 01:46, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Dking has done a major re-write of the criticism section. Please note the template at the top of this page:
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
I have changed this: "Although LaRouche has made a point of seeming to denounce the economic and other policies of Mussolini and Hitler" -- to this: "Although LaRouche has deonounced the economic and other policies of Mussolini and Hitler." The first sentence suggests that the editor who inserted it can read LaRouche's mind, and knows that LaRouche doesn't really mean what he says. This is speculation and un-encyclopediac.
Similarly, I have changed "LaRouche made several attempts to squelch the criticism through libel suits" to "LaRouche filed several libel suits." Please don't dress up the facts with innuendo.
There were also numerous formatting problems. If you want to include the entire title of the article you wrote when you cite it in Wikipedia, you should use the "ref" format.
There are some other, very strange things in there, like claiming that LaRouche has ideas that are modeled on the Nazis, and then adding these footnotes: [27] [28] where LaRouche denounces Nazism and fascism. It is unclear what you are trying to prove with this.
But these things should be discussed in advance, so they don't become edit wars. -- Tsunami Butler 16:28, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
In the "LaRouche in Popular Culture" section, someone has inserted a quote from humorist Dave Barry. The quote is a statement of political opinion about LaRouche rather than an example of popular humor or satire. As such it really doesn't seem to belong in this section. Should it be moved? Removed altogether?-- Dking 15:59, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
The article currently quotes Dean Andromidas, a longtime LaRouche follower writing for EIR, as stating that a former East German agent, Herbert Brehmer, had claimed that the STASI or the KGB had maliciously concocted a story that LaRouche was behind the assassination of Palme. This may be true (but even if it is, it doesn't necessarily absolve LaRouche because Swedish police had other reasons to be suspicious of the EAP and Victor Gunnarsson, regardless of what the STASI may or may not have said). Yet given the murkiness of so much information coming from retired East European spooks nowadays, I think we need a better source for this information than Andromidas and EIR citing an alleged Swedish radio broadcast. Did Brehmer make the allegation in his book? If so, how credible is Brehmer in the eyes of mainstream German journalists? Was Brehmer's radio allegation reported in the mainstream Swedish or German print media? If so, it should definitely be included. Note that I do not intend to remove the Andromidas allegation myself; I'm just raising questions.-- Dking 22:14, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I thought that journalists in most jurisdictions are protected by a shield law from having to name confidential sources, so the failure to name sources in the LaRouche case would not have been an unusual feature of a libel trial. Also, I question the relevance of the information Tsunami has inserted to helping us understand the outcome of the trial, since the issues were (a) the truthfulness of the allegations, (b) whether or not NBC acted with malice, and (c) whether or not LaRouche lost income as a result of the broadcast. If libel attorneys say otherwise, I stand corrected.-- Dking 23:01, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Will Beback, with all due respect, you seem to be going into editing contortions to draw attention away from the fact that this looking for symbolism in science photos cannot be described as anything other than weird, IMO. King acknowleges on this talk page that he uses "decoding," so I don't see why you deleted that term. I think that it is fair to point out that this technique is "unorthodox," another term you deleted. It is certainly the case that more orthodox critics of LaRouche do not point at space photos and conclude that he is a Nazi. There are other features of that article that seem equally wacky to me. I wouldn't think it appropriate to list them all. My original intent was just to say "decoding" and refer the reader to the article.
This section I removed:
If you follow the links that aren't red, you find no evidence that Busemann or Ehricke were Nazis, and in the case of Rudolph, it was contested and evidently he prevailed over those who accused him. Consequently, these references must be seen as slanderous. And since the topic of the paragraph was King's decoding or "unorthodox techniques," the inclusion of this material seems to be a diversionary tactic, anyway.
I think it would be appropriate to discuss LaRouche's support for space research elsewhere in the article, including his relationship with these scientists (mainly Krafft Ehricke and Scherer-- did he actually know any of those others?) I find the old tactic of insinuating that anyone who was German must be a Nazi to be repugnant. I certainly wouldn't want to be thought of as pro-Bush just because I am American. -- Tsunami Butler 00:19, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
To put LaRouche in this category implies that he has gone back to being a conscientious objector, or at the very least a person who is generally opposed to war. He has made it clear in his writings that this is not the case. He has the option, however, of opposing wars that he believes to be immoral or ill-conceived. So he is an anti-Iraq War activist. Whether or not he opposed Vietnam and other wars is irrelevant. If there are categories for opposing Vietnam and those other wars, by all means put him in. -- Tsunami Butler 01:32, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
If a subject of a Wiki biography initiated a lawsuit that resulted in a significant contribution to case law named after that plaintiff, then this fact certainly belongs in the plaintiff's biography. However, here the information is cited to LaRouche publications, which is not acceptable. I suggest the following: that the report on this court ruling be cited to the National Law Journal or other legal journal, and that the mention of the "LaRouche test" also be followed by the correct legal citation (which can probably be found in the North Carolina ruling cited by Will Beback or the legal memorandum cited by Tsunami Butler).-- Dking 20:27, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but this stuff was removed long ago as unsubstantiated. EIR is not a legitimate source for this article. Quinde, who provided the affidavit quoted by EIR, was not even present at the meetings he described. I was present and can testify (as can Chip Berlet) that these were informational meetings only and never resulted in any conspiracy or other concerted action against LaRouche. LaRouche makes much of these meetings but his theory about them--or even the fact that they took place--has not been reported in any print media except publications controlled by LaRouche. Thus the quoting of the Quinde affidavit is original research and not allowed in this article.-- Dking 23:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
"If a non-mainstream theory is so unnotable that mainstream sources have not bothered to comment on it, disparage it, or discuss it, it is not notable enough for Wikipedia.Inventors of fringe theories have in the past used Wikipedia as a forum for promoting their ideas. Existing policies discourage this type of behavior: if the only statements about a fringe theory come from the inventor of that theory, then various "What Wikipedia is not" rules come into play." (From Wikipedia:Fringe theories.) I believe that King's theory that LaRouche is a fascist falls within these guidelines, and should be excluded. -- NathanDW 21:01, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
There are plenty of folks who have called LaRouche "fascist" or "neo-fascist". Daniel Moynihan being perhaps the most prominent.
I'm sure we can find more. - Will Beback · † · 22:50, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
The "fringe theories" policy says that the theory should be commented on in the mainstream press, in order not to be considered "fringe." I don't think that a book review is sufficient. And I also note that the policy warns that fringe theorists may try to promote their pet projects on Wikipedia. I think that it is significant that both King and Berlet have spent considerable time editing and self-citing on Wikipedia. If I were trying to present myself as a "published expert," I would be embarrassed to do what they are doing. -- NathanDW 16:41, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Implanted in this article is a picture of an FBI memo re LaRouche and the Communist Party from October 1973. The article quotes LaRouche as giving a certain interpretation of the FBI memo that is not warranted by the actual text of the memo or by its timing. Since the text of the memo has been included in the article, I think it is not original research to point out that LaRouche's interpretation of the memo is far-fetched. The LaRouchians have had some success on the internet in spreading the urban myth that the FBI and its supposed agents inside the CP plotted to kill LaRouche in 1973 (although LaRouche shortly thereafter began informing on his leftist opponents to Red Squads all over the country as well as to the FBI and the CIA; see King, chapter 24 [32]). This goes hand in hand with the other urban myth--that LaRouche's felony conviction for swindling old ladies, and his reputation for Jew hatred, are all the result of a conspiracy emanating from the apartment of a Manhattan investment banker named John Train. Since urban legends concocted by LaRouche are a part of his life story, I suppose they should be mentioned; but it is incumbent on Wikipedia to make clear that these allegations are of extremely dubious provenance.-- Dking 20:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC) P.S. In October 1973, Operation Mop Up had been over for several months. Self-defense squads at leftist meetings had decisively defeated LaRouche's attack squads. Arrests and indictments had totally demoralized his followers. The NCLC had succeeded in totally isolating itself from the campus and off-campus left (which I think is what LaRouche intended but which made him much less of a threat to the CP). In other words, the crisis was over for the CP and it would have had zero motivation for running the astounding risk of attempting to assassinate LaRouche. (See King, chapter 3 [33].) This is another reason, apart from the ones I gave in my most recent edit to the article, to assume that the FBI memo is speaking of a CP desire to politically expose and isolate LaRouche, not to kill him.-- Dking 20:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
The term "Fascist" was first applied to NCLC as a result of Operation Mopup. I was in the Young Socialist Alliance at this time, following the NCLC assaults on the CP. When the SWP/YSA came to defense of the CP after the CP asked us for help (an historic first, mind you!) we too became victims of their ganster strategy of physical violance and intimination. One meeting that year in Detroit was attacked and parapalegic member of the YSA was beaten up in his wheelchair by the NCLC gangs (reported in The Militant). Basically the article is correct, where ever there was organized defense, we consistantly stomped the NCLCers to pieces. A key turning point was when the NCLC/Larouche started mouthing off about the "sexual impotancy of the Puerto Rican Socialist Party" and the PSP completely when crazy and smashed up several contingents of NCLCers in NY in 1975.
Having said all that, Larouche has made a turn to the left, kind of, coming out in rigerous defense of public health and leadng the fight to save DC General Hospital. His positions in opposition the oil wars is more or less along the lines of other left groups, minus the conspiracy theory stuff. 216.203.27.99 10:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)DavidMIA Feb 7, 2007
LaRouche supporters have shamelessly misrepresented (and attempted to trivialize) my arguments as to why I think LaRouche is best classified as a fascist. I rewrote the paragraphs of this article that mischaracterized my ideas, following closely the text of the actual chapter of my book that had been distorted. If LaRouche's folks think there's now too much Dennis King in this article, they have no one to blame but themselves. I also moved text into chronological order, correcting confusion over dates and approximate time periods that have long plagued this article (but are NOT the result of any conspiracy).-- Dking 00:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Dking, I would like to request for the second time that you carefully review WP:COI and especially WP:COI#Citing_oneself. -- Tsunami Butler 15:46, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Several times on this talk page it says that major changes to the article should be discussed first, because it is considered to be a controversial topic. Dking is making such massive re-writes that it is difficult to keep track of all the changes. I would appreciate it if he would discuss them on the talk page first. -- MaplePorter 01:42, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
As usual, Tsunami's edits are a mixture of good and bad.
In the section on LaRouche's childhood it says he grew up speaking French and German. I have never heard this before. Although I can see how he may have picked up some Quebec French in childhood from his father or paternal grandparents, where would he have learned to speak German as a youngster? I'm not saying the statement is false, just that it should be checked and a citation should be provided. Also, was it LaRouche's father who was a Quebec immigrant--or his grandfather? I can't remember.-- Dking 18:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
This page takes a long time to load on my computer. Does anyone mind if I archive the parts before Sept 27, 2006? -- Tsunami Butler 21:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Dking, would you be so kind as to explain how this paragraph "distorts and trivializes" your theory?
I will reproduce once again your preferred version, so that I may tell you what my objections to it are:
First of all, you simply assert (by saying that you "cited them") that LaRouche is using "certain euphemisms, Orwellian semantic tricks, and examples of symbolic scapegoating." I frankly think that is a load of crap. I have read plenty of LaRouche, and he is very plain-spoken, sometimes egregiously or laboriously so. You are simply throwing up a cloud of verbiage to disguise the fact you are really claiming that he is lying, and that he means something other than what he says. I remind you that originally I was prepared to simply say that you claim that you can "decode" LaRouche, but Will Beback would have none of that, even though it is clear that that is exactly what you are saying. My view is that the short version which you keep deleting is truthful, and the longer one which you prefer is full of "Orwellian semantic tricks" on your own part. It may be that this cannot be resolved with mediation, which I have requested. -- Tsunami Butler 01:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Pro-LaRouche editors on this page have repeatedly made insertions to make it appear that LaRouche's 1987 statement in Munich on dominating the planet through microwave weapons was merely a warning against Soviet machinations. I have reviewed the text of LaRouche's speech as published in EIR, plus an accompanying news artice, "Seminar in Munich looks at radio-frequency weapons," plus a bibliography of previous EIR articles on the weapons technology in question (also accompanying the text of the speech). I have also read over a Feb. 22, 1985 article from New Solidarity on "microwave bombs" (illustrated by one of nutty Professor Bostick's plasmoid "swastikas"). It is clear that prior to LaRouche's Munich speech he and his organization had engaged in a concerted effort to whip up support for a massive crash program to develop such weapons in the United States and Germany. They exaggerated Soviet work in the field and LaRouche himself made two claims in his Munich speech that are now known to be (like most of his predictions) false: First, that perestroika was nothing but a trick to lull the West into inaction; and second, that in "four to five years" a huge revolution in warfare "more awesome than that which exploded over Hiroshima" would be underway, with microwave weapons dominating the "arenas of strategic and tactical conflict." LaRouche discussed both the defensive and offensive capabilities of such weapons (but in apocalyptic terms that almost rendered the difference between offense and defense mute). A statement from his speech now quoted in the text of the Wiki LaRouche bio makes quite clear that he was urging the development of these weapons by Germany and/or by Germany and the United States, not just describing some effort by the Soviets. The quote now says "dominate the world" rather than "dominate the planet." This is not because I misquoted LaRouche in my book, but because LaRouche talked about dominating the "planet" at the beginning of the speech and then repeated himself using the word "world" near the end. Apparently, he wanted to make sure that any aging revanchists in the audience would get the point even if they had snoozed off during part of the proceedings.-- Dking 17:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Dking, you changed MaplePorter's edit, referring to "LaRouche's opposition to the policies of the neo-conservatives," and replaced it with "LaRouche's attacks on the neo-conservatives." This is propagandistic, in two ways: first of all, because you are using the "Orwellian semantic trick" of hiding the fact that LaRouche does in fact oppose the policies of the neo-cons, because then you can insinuate that he opposes them for some reason unrelated to policy. Secondly, when you criticize LaRouche, you call it "criticism," but when LaRouche criticizes someone else, you call it an "attack." This is an encyclopedia, and you have a responsibility to at least make the effort to be neutral and objective. -- Tsunami Butler 22:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Reading this makes me feel like I'm in some weird alternate universe. The Neo-cons promote preventive war, torture, illegal wiretapping of US citizens, the whole package of Hitlerian policies. LaRouche opposes them at a time when most people are afraid to do so. Then Dennis King calls LaRouche a neo-Nazi. This is through-the-looking-glass stuff.
Another thing -- earlier, ManEatingDonut was complaining about student site that was used as a source, because of a "photoshopped" photo superimposing LaRouche on Hitler. I found the very same photo on Dennis King's website. I wonder whether he did the photoshopping himself. I don't think his site meets WP:RS criteria. -- NathanDW 06:37, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Once again, Tsunami Butler has distorted my criticism of LaRouche's attacks on the neocons. The only thing I have written on LaRouche and the Bush admin neocons (and hence the only thing she can refer to under Wiki policy) is in the 2005 report on LaRouche's anti-Semitism I prepared for the Justice for Jeremiah organization. [34] Here in fact is what I wrote:
It is undeniable that a small group of Jewish neoconservative intellectuals at the Pentagon (mostly notably, Under Secretary Paul Wolfowitz) performed an important role in encouraging the Iraq war. However, LaRouche (for whom controversial Jews are meat and potatoes) played on the popular discontent over the war to concoct a conspiracy theory that vastly conflates the role of the neocons and depicts U.S. policy as having been taken over by a giant network of Zionist agents (called "Straussians" after a Jewish professor at the University of Chicago who died in 1973 but has subsequently become the Professor Moriarty of LaRouche's universe). The Straussians are said to be working as agents of the Israeli government and of the "British" (the oligarchy of mostly Jewish financiers operating out of London...). To the delight of LaRouche's Saudi friends, this conspiracy theory has achieved wide circulation in the U.S. media and probably represents the high point ever of LaRouche's influence on public opinion. Somewhere along the way, the proponents of this theory have forgotten that none of the top policy makers--Bush, Cheney, Rice, Powell, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft and the members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff--were Jewish nor were they "Straussians." But in the world view of anti-Semites, the Jews are always invested with magical powers to cloud the minds of gentiles and turn them into puppets.
As can be seen, I focus not on LaRouche's criticism of neocon policy positions but on his conspiracy theory about the neocons. In the compilation of LaRouchian quotes in the report I also give examples of his abusive personal and ethnic attacks on the neocons/Straussians, which include accusing them of treason. Tsunami's description of what I wrote is false, and this is why I have reverted her edit.-- Dking 00:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I would like Dennis and Chip to get out their decoder rings and take a crack at this:
What do you think? Is this "reeking with anti-Semitism?" -- NathanDW 06:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Dking, you have now made hundreds of edits to this article, and I think that you have been careless about following Wikipedia policies, including in particular WP:COI#Citing_oneself and WP:NPOV#Undue_weight. Also, the notice which appears twice on this page, that this is a controversial topic and major changes should be discussed before being applied to the article. All of this has a bearing as well upon WP:BLP, which has recently become a particular priority at Wikipedia. I am re-posting this, which I think is highly relevant:
From WP:LIVING:
Editors should be on the lookout for biased or malicious content in biographies or biographical information. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability.
The views of critics should be represented if their views are relevant to the subject's notability and are based on reliable sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics' material. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one. If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article.
Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of positive or negative claims that rely on association.
-- Tsunami Butler 03:27, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Tsunami says that I have inserted "hundreds" of edits in this article. The overwhelming majority of my edits (which are not as many as T claims) have involved format, chronology, chaotic and repetitious organization of information, typos, citations, and noncontroversial or relatively low-controversy factual matters--or simple stylistic retooling on the few really controversial inserts. It is true that I have disputed some points fiercely, mostly relating to the efforts of LaRouche's followers to misrepresent my work in the paragraph they inserted in this article (although it really belongs in the article on LaRouche's political views) regarding code language, symbolic imagery, etc. As I have said previously on this discussion page, the self-citations I have made (and my adding of a section on LaRouche's relations to former Nazi scientists etc.) were necessitated by the distortions introduced by followers of LaRouche. Here is why I strongly object to MaplePorter's (MP's) version:
1. MP makes it seem that my arguments about LaRouche's anti-Semitism are based solely or primarily on code language. In fact, I base my analysis solidly on the many undisputed examples of anti-Semitism in LaRouche's writings, and on the many instances of transparent euphemisms such as "Zionist" (used with terms such as "nauseating"), "Zionist-British organism", Israelis "a hundred times worse than Hitler," "folks who cooked up the hoax known as the Old Testament", etc. that any reasonable person who is not either a bigot or a programmed ideologue would instantly recognize as anti-Semitic.
2. MP suggests that the paragraph about coded discourse should somehow exist behind a Chinese wall with no discussion of open anti-Semitism and the interpenetration of open and code antiSemitism in the writings of the LaRouche movement. In fact, open, lightly coded and more esoterically coded discourse almost always coexist in the self-styled "classics" of the LaRouche movement; you cannot analyze one without the other.
3. MP attempts to trivialize my analysis of LaRouche's military and political fantasies by (a) conflating them with my remarks on symbolic imagery in LaRouche publications (and with a citation only to Chapter 10 ("Old Nazis and New Dreams")) and (b) suggesting that my analysis is based on using a decoding method. In fact, (a) my analysis of LaRouche's military and political fantasies are primarily contained in an entirely different chapter (Chapter 7, "The Grand Design") albeit with a brief reference to "Thule" symbolism; (b) LaRouche's adolescent fantasy of conquering the world is right out in the open, not in code language at all, although it is frequently wrapped in turgid phraseology. (The only thing he "codes" is the identity of the object of his extermination campaign--international Jewry. If he had not coded this he would never have gotten entre to the Reagan administration or even to many of the Third World cocaine dictators his followers love to hobnob with.)
My reference to a four-pronged plasmoid glowing with light was explicitly described in Chapter 10 as symbolizing LaRouche's attempt to form an alliance with former Nazi scientists and military officers to defend Nazi war criminals and to demonize Nazis hunters such as Eli Rosenbaum as KGB agents, traitors and worse. (And I carefully pointed out in Chap. 10 the image's provenance as a Lawrence Livermore photo, noting however that LaRouche was using it in a political context in political propaganda journals; I also noted that LaRouche himself was enamored with cosmic spirals, which is a somewhat different obsession.)
4. MP included a quote from Daniel Pipes saying he disagrees with me about the meaning of "British" in LaRouche's writings. Fine, I'm sure there are many other people who don't agree with me on this (or only agree privately, like the late Irwin Suall, who came around after reading Richard Hofstader's account of how Anglophobia and anti-Semitism were merged in the propaganda of American anti-Semites beginning in the late 19th century). But the paragraph as originally written by a LaRouche follower also refers to my analysis of LaRouche's world domination fantasies, while the version I wrote adds that LaRouche's code language is an extension of his open anti-Semitism. So it is necessary to point out that (a) Pipes agrees LaRouche is anti-Semitic and (b) Pipes agrees that LaRouche has military fantasies about total war (which Pipes could see were phrased openly in the sense of total war against Britain).
The underlying problem here is that LaRouche's followers, with all their obvious sincerity, are simply not capable of describing my ideas and analyses accurately. They are programmed not to see what is clearly in front of their eyes. I am reverting MP's version of the disputed subsection once again.-- Dking 21:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Mgunn, if you would be so kind as to simply start here and read to the end of the page, I think you will understand what the dispute is about. I asked Dking, "Please don't dress up the facts with innuendo." He can't seem to help himself. In the edit that he keeps reverting (with your assistance,) he refers to "LaRouche's highly imaginative fantasies about conquering the world" as if it were a fact. He attempts, through creative writing, to make his assertings about a "glowing, four pronged object" more believable, when in fact, he is describing a barred spiral galaxy and a fusion experiment, appearing in science articles, and those are the facts of the matter (that he looks at these things and sees swastikas tells us more about himself than about LaRouche.) I have on numerous occasions asked Dking to observe in particular WP:COI#Citing_oneself and WP:NPOV#Undue_weight, and he seems nonetheless bent on transforming this article into a POV essay.
Not all of his edits have been of this type, but too many have, and he should content himself with the fact that there is at least one external link to his website. I say "at least one," because I am not convinced that we need as many as we presently have. -- Tsunami Butler 00:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I was cited in this article for quotes from LaRouche's 1979 autobiography. It seems to me that there is no reason not to directly quote the subject of a Wiki biography's own autobiography, as long as one makes clear if there is published evidence that refutes a particular statement and as long as the autobiographer's claim is not outlandish. So I have directly cited LaRouche and in the course of doing so have found a quote (about his imaginary conversations in his head with great philosophers) that I think both his critics and supporters will find fascinating. I wish I hadn't missed this one when writing my book on LaRouche.-- Dking 23:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I gave us a few days to cool off on the edit war that seemed to be beginning. I think in general when we get into such an impasse the best thing for everyone is to concentrate for a short time on noncontroversial or low controversy things (there are a huge number of problems with the article in terms of style, organization, factual errors and lack of adequate citation that can be improved at any time). But I have restored the two disputed paragraph to my version because I sincerely believe that MP has misrepresented what I actually wrote in my book. Again, I never based my case for LaRouche being anti-Semitic solely or even primarily on code language. Indeed, much of his code language is obvious ant-Semitism (as Bartley pointed out in the WSJ) but just expressed in a "polite" way to prevent triggering too much outrage (see LaRouche's own published comments on the usefulness of euphemisms). I didn't use the four-pronged object to illustrate LaRouche's military conceptions but suggested it symbolized his efforts to ally with Nazi scientists and to defend Nazi criminals (I gave the exact quote on this, MP did not). My reference to a "four-pronged object glowing with light" is not "creative writing" added to this article, but the actual description in my book. I did not cover up the fact that this picture is of a fusion experiment but stated that fact in my book; the issue is not the provenance of this photo resembling a swastika but the circumstances under which it appeared repeatedly in LaRouche propaganda publications in the middle 1980s when LaRouch was forming alliances with "former" Nazis. I never said LaRouche had a "secret" plan for his conquer-the-world fantasies; in fact, it is all out in the open, as quoted from his own writings in my Chapter 7, which MP failed to cite because it didn't fit with his own description of my findings. Finally, these two paragraphs as inherited from MP's first version contain the linked arguments that (a) I concentrate on code language and (b) I use the analysis of code language to bolster my theory about LaRouche's military dreams. Given these assertions, it is misleading to quote Daniel Pipes as disagreeing with me about a certain code word without also pointing out that he arrived at findings similar to mine regarding LaRouche's military dreams. Reverted again. -- Dking 03:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
To put things in perspective, Bartley is the former editor of the WSJ, whereas your opinion piece appeared back at the time of the John Train salon, which appears to have been your 15 minutes of fame, over 20 years ago. Nonetheless, there is only one citation to Bartley in this article as compared to 23 for Dennis King, so count your blessings.
There are other objections I have to your version which I forgot to list earlier today:
With the exception of 'mikkanarxi, I don't believe anyone on this talk page has disputed the claim that LaRouche is a conspiracy theorist. What this debate demonstrates, however, is that Dennis King is probably more of a conspiracy theorist than LaRouche is. -- Tsunami Butler 21:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the following points are indisputable:
(1) Many notable individuals and groups have made allegations of anti-semitism, euphamisms etc... This is an extremely common (if not mainstream) view.
(2) Dennis King has the most notable third party book on LaRouche. (It is a reliable source.)
(3) Dennis King can more accurately describe what he said in his book than other people.
From these three premises, you reach several logical conclusions:
(1b) These allegations should be included because it is a notable controversy. Anti-semitism etc.. were part of the reason the DNC wouldn't accept LaRouche delegates (whether or not you agree with the allegations, their existence is important to the biography of LaRouche).
(1c) As is the case with other controversies, I think there should be some text that these allegations are disputed by LaRouche.
(2b) Because Dennis King's book is reliable and notable, it is probably the best base source to use for describing these type of allegations.
(3b) Almost by definition, Dennis King's version of what Dennis King's book said is going to be far more accurate than a LaRouche follower's version of what Dennis King's book said. Dennis King's edits to text describing his own book and own allegations should clearly be accepted.
I therefore revert back to DKing's version. Mgunn 19:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Mgunn, you requested a list of my specific suggestions to Dking's version of the "coded discourse" paragraph. You will find the list here. Please note that I also cite the relevant Wikipedia policies that apply. I would encourage you to familiarize yourself with these policies, as it is useful to refer to them when attempting to resolve a dispute. Please also bear in mind that the allegations of anti-Semitism are noted in the previous section ("Criticism") and in more detail at the "Political Views" article. The disputed paragraph deals specifically with "coded discourse," and other, unrelated allegations, such as Pipes' comments on LaRouche's conspiracy theorizing, should not be interjected there.-- Tsunami Butler 02:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
[38]It is argued that the culmination of the persecution of the Jews in the Nazi holocaust proves that Zionism is so eessential to "Jewish survival" that any anti-Zionist is therefore not only an anti-Semite, but that any sort of criminal action is excusable against anti-Zionists in memory of the mythical "six million Jewish victims" of the Nazi "holocaust."
This is worse than sophistry. It is a lie. True, about a million and a half Jews did die as a result of the Nazi policy of labor-intensive "appropriate technology" for the employment of "inferior races," a small fraction of the tens of million of others - especially Slavs - who were murdered in the same way Jewish refugee Felix Rohaytin proposes today. Even on a relative scale, what the Nazis did to Jewish victims was mild compared with the virtual extermination of gypsies and the butchery of Communists.
Allegations of anti-Semitism should be noted in the "Criticism" section (as they are,) and described in more detail in the "Political Views" article (as they are, including the examples you cite.) However, the "swindle" quote from his wife appears to be out of context, as many of King's quotes from LaRouche typically are. The actual context - criticism of the NBC miniseries by the same name - is found at Helga Zepp-LaRouche. -- MaplePorter 15:37, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Informational Notice - USER:Charles8854 has been indefinitely blocked from editing Wikipedia. / Blaxthos 05:44, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
As the recipient of several swings of these weapons during Operation Mop-up, and as a Martial Artist myself, I want to state they are NOT Korean as indicated in the article. Nunchucks are Okinawan, where most of Japan's hand weapons (but not the Katana) originaed from. When they unlock this article, please correct the error. 216.203.27.99 11:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Big reverts don't lead to consensus editing. Please edit a section at a time, and explain each edit. Even better, work towards a consensus version that is at least minimally acceptable to everyone. This biography is very long already so I discourage the addition of new material that can be handled in an existing or new article. We should keep this article focused on the events of the subject's life and keep the bulk of his philosophy in "political views" while details of party histories should go in the party articles. - Will Beback · † · 08:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm afraid that on the ArbCom case, Mgunn is confusing Dennis King (Dking) with Chip Berlet (Cberlet.) This is understandable. -- MaplePorter 06:39, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I am the author of one of the two disputed versions of "Coded discourse," so I have written a compromise version which I hope will break the deadlock. Here are the changes I made:
If Dking will provide a quote in context from LaRouche where LaRouche says he has a plot for "conquering the world," that "centers on eliminating a Jewish banking oligarchy," I will elimate the word "secretly." I have read plenty of LaRouche, and even at his most abstruse I have never seen him even hint at such a thing.
I hope that this compromise version will get us all out of the revert loop:
-- MaplePorter 06:55, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I read LaRouche, and see echoes of Hitler and Mussolini. Why believe the claims of a crank and convicted felon?--Cberlet 01:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC) --Cberlet 01:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Is it NPOV for someone that says such obviously biased and harsh words about someone they never even met to be editing an article about them?... Do these people even have any non negative things to say about this guy? And do they even have a life outside of obsessing over and smearing that guy? I will admit Larouche is no perfect angel, but even so, he does not warrant such demonization in a simple biography... If such is allowed on this page, then perhaps the George W Bush and other republican pages need to have a littler harsher criticisms on them... Just some thoughts... The edits to the page ought to be thought over very long and hard, instead of just throwing out smears or nonsense from either side , pro or anti Larouche onto it... Vipercat 02:44, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I would like to second MaplePorter's request that Dking "provide a quote in context from LaRouche where LaRouche says he has a plot for "conquering the world," that "centers on eliminating a Jewish banking oligarchy." I am very interested to see whether he can produce such a thing. -- NathanDW 21:10, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I can see that there has been a long debate about this issue in this discussion group, and it seems that the main person arguing in favor of Dennis King is Dennis King himself, which seems sort of inappropriate. I would like to add my thoughts:
I have read some of King's stuff, and I have often wondered whether he really believes what he writes. He takes about 1% of LaRouche's writings and quotes it out of context to support his claims, which are readily refuted by the other 99% of LaRouche's writings (ignored by King.) In my opinion, the matter is simple: the policies that LaRouche advocates establish him as an anti-fascist. He uses as a reference point the constitution's commitment to the General Welfare, which is the opposite of fascism.
This enclopedia article should provide a balanced view of LaRouche, and it seems that a too-high percentage of the article is devoted to King's claims.
I realize that at the moment the article is protected from editing, but I would like to point out that in the last edit made by King, there are logical fallacies. It is true that LaRouche is anti-British, but how does that make him pro-fascist? It is true that LaRouche claims Hitler was playing footsie with the Brits (others have similar theories,) but how does that make him pro-fascist? I think King is wrong in what he says about the figures on the holocaust, because LaRouche was making a point that most people were worked to death (not simply exterminated) under the slave labor policy, which is often ignored by popular histories that cover up that fact. It's beside the point, though, because either way it does not prove that LaRouche is pro-fascist. And as far as I'm concerned, LaRouche's attacks on "various public figures in post-war Britain and America" is proof that he is anti-fascist, not pro-fascist -- look at the current leadership of those two countries!
Also, the section called "LaRouche's 1980s alliance with former Peenemunde V-2 scientists" contains misleading statements. King refers to John Demjanjuk as "Ivan the Terrible" when in fact he was acquitted of that charge in Israeli court, and the OSI admitted that it had forged documents to back the charge. Don't tell me that King didn't know that when he wrote it. The other two guys, Linnas and Soobzokov, were both killed before they could stand trial, so the presumption of guilt on King's part is wrong -- I suspect that King knows this too. Of course, LaRouche had no political connection to these three men -- he merely joined the chorus of voices who protested the star chamber tactics of the OSI. And this whole section is not an especially notable part of LaRouche's bio -- he was involved in all sorts of "alliances," with farm activists, civil rights leaders, union groups, and so on. King cherry picks events from LaRouche's life to back up his claims. This article should be a bio, not an article about King's claims. -- HonourableSchoolboy 01:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
This page has been reprotected, since the edit warring started right after it was uprotected. This is kind of ridiculous; we are all mature editors, we should be able to work out our disagreements through discussion. Please take this opportunity to remember that it pays to discuss before editing, for hopefully then the page can stay unprotected and stable. -- Natalya 15:16, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
My thinking is that Dking's accusations should be presented in list form, in the criticism section, without turning it into a essay. Then there should be a link to "political views of Lyndon LaRouche." King's accusations are all there already, but with appropriate rebuttals from LaRouche. There is no reason to replicate the whole thing in the bio article, when we have another article which is a (slightly) more appropriate forum for presenting King's theories about LaRouche's hidden agenda, coded messages, and so forth. -- Tsunami Butler 15:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
LaRouche's supporters claim that I did not reply to their edits during the first time the article was locked and they appear to have used this as a justification for starting their policy of block deletions and replacements once again while the article was briefly unlocked. Anyone who cares can go back and review my postings over the past month and see that I replied to their edits repeatedly, in detail, with no avail. Now they have brought in yet another LaRouche follower with the predictable name of "Honourable Schoolboy" (yes, guys, we already know that you regard most of the British public school toffs as "dishonorable," you don't have to keep reminding us) to bolster their forces, giving them four people with unlimited time to censor articles relating to LaRouche. Honorable Schoolboy removed the section on LaRouche and the Nazi scientists before the article was relocked and now they are talking about how this belongs on the page about LaRouche's political views. I beg to differ. LaRouche waged a campaign to defend Nazi war criminals and to glorify Operation Paperclip Nazi scientists for at least 15 years. He claims to have revered some of these unrepentent guys. He put their pictures next to his in the New Federalist as victims of the OSI cabal (the cabal is represented by pictures of three Jews). He caused his newspaper to publish tirades saying that Rep. Elizabeth Holtzman, sponsor of the federal law on Nazi war crimes, bears the mark of the Anti-Christ. This stuff is an important part of LaRouche's biography reflecting his deepest convictions and fantasies. My paragraph on it is properly sourced and should be restored forthwith, and the LaRouche mischaracterizations of my book (saying I only accused LaRouche of "coded" anti-Semitism and of a "secret" plan for world power) in the other disputed paragraph should likewise be summarily replaced with the accurate, properly sourced description I provided. LaRouche's followers should not be allowed to dismiss the numerous examples in my book of LaRouche's open Jew-hatred and my citations of his openly published military fantasies as if such evidence does not exist.-- Dking 23:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I would like to add to the Further Reading section the following: "Lyndon LaRouche's Raid on Democracy" article by Eugene H. Methvin in August 1986 Reader's Digest
I apologize in advance for jumping in the middle of the dispute but I just have to say something. I know little if anything about LaRouche. I'm not American, I've vaguely heard about LaRouche from time to time but I really have no opinion on the subject. I come here looking for information and what I get is an article with clearly undue weight given to criticism, with two of the active editors of the page having been sued for defamation by LaRouche and where a majority of the sources are linked to these two editors. Whatever happened to avoiding conflicts of interest? Frankly, my reaction is "whatever this article is saying, I can't trust it". I'm not saying the info is incorrect, as I said I don't have enough background to really say. What I do know is that I don't trust an article that is so blatantly influenced by editors with an obvious slant against LaRouche. Now it may very well be that there are also people involved here with close ties to LaRouche and I suspect that tendentious editing will tend to attract more tendentious editing. In any case, as far as I'm concerned this article falls into the junk bin and might just as well be re-started from scratch. Pascal.Tesson 20:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I am here from the Cabal to mediate. Due to the fact that this page is enormous, I have created /medcab06-07 to discuss on. This will allow easier review by parties. Please correct me if I am wrong, but the main points of contention have to do with Dking's edits. G e o. Talk to me 03:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The LaRouche editors are attempting to create a red herring. They say that the issue is an attempt by myself to aggressively "dominate" this article. I think any fair minded person who goes back and reviews the record of my edits on this article over the past several weeks will see that I have been concerned with proper sourcing, have made many corrections of a factual nature, have raised questions about particular points in hopes others would make the corrections, have attempted to organize some sections in a more logical fashion, and have provided detailed explanations of contested edits. I have aggressively opposed attempts by LaRouche editors to misrepresent my work (for instance, the canard that I provide no examples of direct LaRouchian anti-Semitism), as any author would do. It should be noted that this article has been under dispute for about three years and the LaRouchians earlier tried, unsuccessfully, to make me the issue. (I was not at the time editing on this article and only began to do so at the end of 2006.) The issue is not Dennis King--the issue is that properly sourced and factually accurate material is being removed from this article and replaced by improperly sourced and factually inaccurate material, and that this is being done by at least four supporters of LaRouche acting together with a clear agenda of sanitizing the biography of a convicted felon whose political extremism and anti-Semitism are well documented by a variety of respected sources on both the right and the left.-- Dking 18:40, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
P.S. Honorable Schoolboy complains that I describe him as being part of a four-person pro-LaRouche task force trying to dominate this artice. Well, let me quote pro-LaRouche editor Tsunami Butler: "The other side of the edit war was a group of editors who might be described as either pro-LaRouche or, depending on your frame of reference, anti-Defamation. They are myself, MaplePorter, HonorableSchoolboy, and Nathan DW." Talk to me So let's have no more of this silly pretending that no cooperative campaign to defend LaRouche is being conducted, and that Honorable Schoolboy and Nathan DW [ [43]] are merely objective, disinterested third parties.-- Dking 18:57, 17 February 2007 (UTC)