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I have just modified one external link on Lydney Park. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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@ Obscurasky: What happened to "first assume good faith"? I think it is your edit summary that is provocative.
How a country house was purchased or built is absolutely of relevance to its Wikipedia page. There is a legitimate and growing public interest in the links to slavery in Britain, for instance some banks underwent a review on this subject a few years ago (e.g. see this 2007 article on Barclays links or the RBS history hub showing their links to Bristol banks set up by slave traders), Jesus College is currently undergoing a review of its links to slavery, and see this recent Guardian article on Greene King and Lloyds of London in relation to slavery. To deny the relevance of the source of wealth based on 'children are not responsible for the sins of the fathers' is to attempt to obscure such links. Furthermore, to quote the reference I used for my edit, which is a 2013 book written and edited by professional historians for English Heritage, detailing the many and varied ways that English country houses are linked to slavery: p151
"Benjamin Bathurst, governor of the Royal African Company in the 1680s, who died in 1704 and left a fortune sufficient to endow all three of his sons with landed estates".
So the source says the family purchased Lydney Park using wealth from the slave trade. This is relevant to the history of Lydney Park and I will be putting it back in. I am open to discussion on how that is phrased if you think I have misrepresented the source. If you have a source saying different on the history of the purchase then please share it and we can discuss it here. DrThneed ( talk) 21:37, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Broadlands "When Sydenham was ruined by the 18th-century South Sea Bubble, he proceeded to sell Broadlands to Henry Temple, 1st Viscount Palmerston, in 1736."
And also reference to the source of wealth: Cliveden "It shows that in 1237 the land was owned by Geoffrey de Clyveden and by 1300 it had passed to his son, William, who owned fisheries and mills along the Cliveden Reach stretch of the Thames and at nearby Hedsor."
Longleat "Sir Charles Appleton (1515–1580) purchased Longleat for Sir John Thynn in 1541 for £53. Appleton was a builder with experience gained from working on The Old School Baltonsborough, Bedwyn Broil and Somerset House."
Eggington_House "John Reynal built Egglington House in 1696. He was a Huguenot from Montauban in France and became a prosperous tailor in London."
Highgrove_House "In August 1980 the Highgrove estate was purchased by the Duchy of Cornwall for a figure believed to be between £800,000 and £1,000,000 with funds raised for its purchase by the sale of three properties from the duchy's holdings."
And other ways for property to come into a family: Highgrove_House "The estate itself came to the family through the marriage in 1771 of Josiah Paul Tippetts later Paul (his mother's family name, which he adopted under the terms of the will of his uncle, her brother) with Mary Clark, whose father Robert was the local squire."
So I continue to disagree that the information about Bathurst's engagement in the slave trade does not belong on this page. It wasn't in the lede, it was in the beginning of the first section, because that is where Benjamin Bathurst was already referred to. Do we need a separate section on the history? But it would still likely end up near the top of the page. DrThneed ( talk) 22:39, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
DrThneed, you're right that assuming good-faith is important. To be clear (although I thought I had been) I removed the text because I believed that edit, made at that time (the day after a BLM protest took place in Bathurst Park) was a deliberate attempt to stoke racial tension in our little town. It was not an attempt to deny anything, although I certainly remain unconvinced that the house's link to money generated by the slave trade is relevant here, and I don't think that Benjamin Bathurst's (1692-1767) support for slavery is sufficiently proven, or relevant, either. Obscurasky ( talk) 11:31, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
I think that the gist of the edit by DrThneed is good. I might reword it to make it clearer that the family's fortune (and thus the monies they spend establishing and maintaining the park and buildings) were at the very least intertwined with the slave trade, if not directly derived from it. Stuartyeates ( talk) 10:29, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for this question. In short, yes. Apologies for the delay replying, I was seeking out further sources. For ease of discussion, a quote (from a source that is online if anyone wishes to check):
Nuala Zahadieh , in Slavery and the British Country House, Chapter 6: “A small number of merchants were, however, able to exploit the commercial networks that they developed in the slave-based Atlantic trading system to spectacular advantage. They diversified beyond the core trade in plantation commodities into slave-trading, ship-owning, naval contracting, government credit and a range of rent-seeking enterprises which generated large profits especially in times of war.” Footnote (p151) lists some of these merchants, including “Benjamin Bathurst, governor of the Royal African Company in the 1680s, who died in 1704 and left a fortune sufficient to endow all three of his sons with landed estates”.
Much clearer, though, is this: in his biography of the 3rd Earl of Bathurst, “Earl Bathurst and the British Empire”, Neville Thompson says on p2, talking of Benjamin Bathurst senior “By his death in 1704 he had settled his two younger sons on substantial estates and purchased ones for himself and his heir at Cirencester and Paulspury in Northamptonshire.” The family tree on page xii of the book shows that these two younger sons are Peter Bathurst (Clarendon Park) and Benjamin Bathurst (Lydney Park). Thompson had access to the family papers in writing his biography.
So this means the Lydney estate was purchased by Benjamin Bathurst senior whose connections and longstanding involvement in the slave trade are not, I believe, in doubt (see Zahadieh quote above, but also Benjamin Bathurst). This contradicts the claim on the Lydney Park page that the estate was bought in 1719 by Benjamin Bathurst junior, but as this claim is unsourced it is hard to give it any weight. If anyone has a reliable source for 1719 please share, I would love to see it. Without it, I think we need to rely on the sources we have, and say that the property was bought by Benjamin Bathurst senior.
In rereading the sources, I have realised that a previous owner of the house, William Wynter/Winter of Lydney, also had a slave trading history.
Direct quote from p24 EH book Madge Dresser: “The original Lydney Park was first built in the 1670s by one Charles Winter, but a century before that in the 1570s his ancestor William Winter of Lydney who had bought the two Lydney manors built a house there. This William Winter had been a partner and later rival to James Hawkins and both were involved in slaving voyages between Guinea and the new world, thus linking (as noted earlier) Lydney to Dyrham Park.”
Currently the Lydney Park page does not talk about the existence of the park prior to the Bathurst ownership at all. To be fair to the Bathursts, it might be better to have a “History” section at the top of the page where this previous history can be fleshed out a little (as is done on many other pages of country houses). As a starting point, I suggest something along these lines, input welcome:
“History
In the 1570s William Wynter of Lydney, owner of Dyrham Park, bought two manors in Lydney. Wynter was an admiral and principal officer of the Council of the Marine under Queen Elizabeth I of England and was involved in slaving voyages between Guinea and the New World. His descendant Charles Winter built the first Lydney Park in the 1670s. Winter completed an L-shaped house on the site in 1692. [1]
Lydney Park was purchased by Benjamin Bathurst, who was Cofferer to Queen Anne, and had a long-standing involvement in the slave trade through his investments in, and senior appointment in, the Royal African Company. On Benjamin Bathurst’s death in 1704, the estate passed to his son, also named Benjamin Bathurst. Dresser (2013) reports that “the estate papers of Lydney Park at the Gloucestershire Record Office contain accounts for Barbados, Tobago and Antigua sugar sold in Bristol at the beginning of the 19th Century”, showing that the connection between Lydney Park and industries based on slavery did not end with Benjamin Bathurst senior. [2] [3]
Charles (Bragge) Bathurst took over and refurbished Lydney Park in 1833, adding an orangery and other improvements. That house was demolished in 1876 [4]; English Heritage dates the current house, a Grade II listed building by architect Charles Henry Howell, to 1877.”-- DrThneed ( talk) 08:17, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
So, you want to include these sentences: "In the 1570s William Wynter of Lydney, owner of Dyrham Park, bought two manors in Lydney. Wynter was an admiral and principal officer of the Council of the Marine under Queen Elizabeth I of England and was involved in slaving voyages between Guinea and the New World." Now, that (if properly sourced) is relevant to the encyclopedia. But you have still not explained why it is relevant to this particular article. Is one of the manors this site? You don't say it is. Yes, his descendant built the house. But, so what? It's a WP:COATRACK. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 07:53, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
The initial proposed text looks great to me! As per the William Wynter article, I've started a discussion on the talk page about getting slavery discussed in the article. Stuartyeates ( talk) 20:00, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
The proposed history section would contribute greatly to the article. We should add it to the article. A mention about slavery somewhere in the history section is likely fine when contextualizing the owners. OurStreets ( talk) 23:04, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
Comment: A recent
article in the
Bulletin of the History of Archaeology cites the above discussion as evidence for the claim that "When Wikipedia centres whiteness or excludes people of colour and their histories, that action is transmitted globally, as are the connected racial (and gender) biases of editors. A discussion on the ‘Talk’ page of the English country house, Lydney Park, shows how resistant some editors can be to the inclusion of new narratives: in this case the connection between the house and the slave trade ...."
Regards,
HaeB (
talk) 01:34, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Comment: The above discussion has been referenced in Note b in the article on Penrhyn Castle. KJP1 ( talk) 22:07, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
See discussion on talk page about suppression of mentions how this links back to the slave trade. Schwede 66 22:22, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Lydney Park. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:23, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
@ Obscurasky: What happened to "first assume good faith"? I think it is your edit summary that is provocative.
How a country house was purchased or built is absolutely of relevance to its Wikipedia page. There is a legitimate and growing public interest in the links to slavery in Britain, for instance some banks underwent a review on this subject a few years ago (e.g. see this 2007 article on Barclays links or the RBS history hub showing their links to Bristol banks set up by slave traders), Jesus College is currently undergoing a review of its links to slavery, and see this recent Guardian article on Greene King and Lloyds of London in relation to slavery. To deny the relevance of the source of wealth based on 'children are not responsible for the sins of the fathers' is to attempt to obscure such links. Furthermore, to quote the reference I used for my edit, which is a 2013 book written and edited by professional historians for English Heritage, detailing the many and varied ways that English country houses are linked to slavery: p151
"Benjamin Bathurst, governor of the Royal African Company in the 1680s, who died in 1704 and left a fortune sufficient to endow all three of his sons with landed estates".
So the source says the family purchased Lydney Park using wealth from the slave trade. This is relevant to the history of Lydney Park and I will be putting it back in. I am open to discussion on how that is phrased if you think I have misrepresented the source. If you have a source saying different on the history of the purchase then please share it and we can discuss it here. DrThneed ( talk) 21:37, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Broadlands "When Sydenham was ruined by the 18th-century South Sea Bubble, he proceeded to sell Broadlands to Henry Temple, 1st Viscount Palmerston, in 1736."
And also reference to the source of wealth: Cliveden "It shows that in 1237 the land was owned by Geoffrey de Clyveden and by 1300 it had passed to his son, William, who owned fisheries and mills along the Cliveden Reach stretch of the Thames and at nearby Hedsor."
Longleat "Sir Charles Appleton (1515–1580) purchased Longleat for Sir John Thynn in 1541 for £53. Appleton was a builder with experience gained from working on The Old School Baltonsborough, Bedwyn Broil and Somerset House."
Eggington_House "John Reynal built Egglington House in 1696. He was a Huguenot from Montauban in France and became a prosperous tailor in London."
Highgrove_House "In August 1980 the Highgrove estate was purchased by the Duchy of Cornwall for a figure believed to be between £800,000 and £1,000,000 with funds raised for its purchase by the sale of three properties from the duchy's holdings."
And other ways for property to come into a family: Highgrove_House "The estate itself came to the family through the marriage in 1771 of Josiah Paul Tippetts later Paul (his mother's family name, which he adopted under the terms of the will of his uncle, her brother) with Mary Clark, whose father Robert was the local squire."
So I continue to disagree that the information about Bathurst's engagement in the slave trade does not belong on this page. It wasn't in the lede, it was in the beginning of the first section, because that is where Benjamin Bathurst was already referred to. Do we need a separate section on the history? But it would still likely end up near the top of the page. DrThneed ( talk) 22:39, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
DrThneed, you're right that assuming good-faith is important. To be clear (although I thought I had been) I removed the text because I believed that edit, made at that time (the day after a BLM protest took place in Bathurst Park) was a deliberate attempt to stoke racial tension in our little town. It was not an attempt to deny anything, although I certainly remain unconvinced that the house's link to money generated by the slave trade is relevant here, and I don't think that Benjamin Bathurst's (1692-1767) support for slavery is sufficiently proven, or relevant, either. Obscurasky ( talk) 11:31, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
I think that the gist of the edit by DrThneed is good. I might reword it to make it clearer that the family's fortune (and thus the monies they spend establishing and maintaining the park and buildings) were at the very least intertwined with the slave trade, if not directly derived from it. Stuartyeates ( talk) 10:29, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for this question. In short, yes. Apologies for the delay replying, I was seeking out further sources. For ease of discussion, a quote (from a source that is online if anyone wishes to check):
Nuala Zahadieh , in Slavery and the British Country House, Chapter 6: “A small number of merchants were, however, able to exploit the commercial networks that they developed in the slave-based Atlantic trading system to spectacular advantage. They diversified beyond the core trade in plantation commodities into slave-trading, ship-owning, naval contracting, government credit and a range of rent-seeking enterprises which generated large profits especially in times of war.” Footnote (p151) lists some of these merchants, including “Benjamin Bathurst, governor of the Royal African Company in the 1680s, who died in 1704 and left a fortune sufficient to endow all three of his sons with landed estates”.
Much clearer, though, is this: in his biography of the 3rd Earl of Bathurst, “Earl Bathurst and the British Empire”, Neville Thompson says on p2, talking of Benjamin Bathurst senior “By his death in 1704 he had settled his two younger sons on substantial estates and purchased ones for himself and his heir at Cirencester and Paulspury in Northamptonshire.” The family tree on page xii of the book shows that these two younger sons are Peter Bathurst (Clarendon Park) and Benjamin Bathurst (Lydney Park). Thompson had access to the family papers in writing his biography.
So this means the Lydney estate was purchased by Benjamin Bathurst senior whose connections and longstanding involvement in the slave trade are not, I believe, in doubt (see Zahadieh quote above, but also Benjamin Bathurst). This contradicts the claim on the Lydney Park page that the estate was bought in 1719 by Benjamin Bathurst junior, but as this claim is unsourced it is hard to give it any weight. If anyone has a reliable source for 1719 please share, I would love to see it. Without it, I think we need to rely on the sources we have, and say that the property was bought by Benjamin Bathurst senior.
In rereading the sources, I have realised that a previous owner of the house, William Wynter/Winter of Lydney, also had a slave trading history.
Direct quote from p24 EH book Madge Dresser: “The original Lydney Park was first built in the 1670s by one Charles Winter, but a century before that in the 1570s his ancestor William Winter of Lydney who had bought the two Lydney manors built a house there. This William Winter had been a partner and later rival to James Hawkins and both were involved in slaving voyages between Guinea and the new world, thus linking (as noted earlier) Lydney to Dyrham Park.”
Currently the Lydney Park page does not talk about the existence of the park prior to the Bathurst ownership at all. To be fair to the Bathursts, it might be better to have a “History” section at the top of the page where this previous history can be fleshed out a little (as is done on many other pages of country houses). As a starting point, I suggest something along these lines, input welcome:
“History
In the 1570s William Wynter of Lydney, owner of Dyrham Park, bought two manors in Lydney. Wynter was an admiral and principal officer of the Council of the Marine under Queen Elizabeth I of England and was involved in slaving voyages between Guinea and the New World. His descendant Charles Winter built the first Lydney Park in the 1670s. Winter completed an L-shaped house on the site in 1692. [1]
Lydney Park was purchased by Benjamin Bathurst, who was Cofferer to Queen Anne, and had a long-standing involvement in the slave trade through his investments in, and senior appointment in, the Royal African Company. On Benjamin Bathurst’s death in 1704, the estate passed to his son, also named Benjamin Bathurst. Dresser (2013) reports that “the estate papers of Lydney Park at the Gloucestershire Record Office contain accounts for Barbados, Tobago and Antigua sugar sold in Bristol at the beginning of the 19th Century”, showing that the connection between Lydney Park and industries based on slavery did not end with Benjamin Bathurst senior. [2] [3]
Charles (Bragge) Bathurst took over and refurbished Lydney Park in 1833, adding an orangery and other improvements. That house was demolished in 1876 [4]; English Heritage dates the current house, a Grade II listed building by architect Charles Henry Howell, to 1877.”-- DrThneed ( talk) 08:17, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
So, you want to include these sentences: "In the 1570s William Wynter of Lydney, owner of Dyrham Park, bought two manors in Lydney. Wynter was an admiral and principal officer of the Council of the Marine under Queen Elizabeth I of England and was involved in slaving voyages between Guinea and the New World." Now, that (if properly sourced) is relevant to the encyclopedia. But you have still not explained why it is relevant to this particular article. Is one of the manors this site? You don't say it is. Yes, his descendant built the house. But, so what? It's a WP:COATRACK. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 07:53, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
The initial proposed text looks great to me! As per the William Wynter article, I've started a discussion on the talk page about getting slavery discussed in the article. Stuartyeates ( talk) 20:00, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
The proposed history section would contribute greatly to the article. We should add it to the article. A mention about slavery somewhere in the history section is likely fine when contextualizing the owners. OurStreets ( talk) 23:04, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
Comment: A recent
article in the
Bulletin of the History of Archaeology cites the above discussion as evidence for the claim that "When Wikipedia centres whiteness or excludes people of colour and their histories, that action is transmitted globally, as are the connected racial (and gender) biases of editors. A discussion on the ‘Talk’ page of the English country house, Lydney Park, shows how resistant some editors can be to the inclusion of new narratives: in this case the connection between the house and the slave trade ...."
Regards,
HaeB (
talk) 01:34, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Comment: The above discussion has been referenced in Note b in the article on Penrhyn Castle. KJP1 ( talk) 22:07, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
See discussion on talk page about suppression of mentions how this links back to the slave trade. Schwede 66 22:22, 10 March 2023 (UTC)