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A scholarly paper I found says that Gerhard Maak was NOT Litvyak's first kill, but was Lieutenant Valeriya Khomyakova's first, and on 24 September 1943, not 27 September 1942. This source says a pilot named Maier was Litvyak's first kill. I'm taking Maak out and putting Maier in. Binksternet ( talk) 05:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Lieutenant Valerya Khomyakova could not have scored her first kill on 24 September 1943, as she was killed on 5 October 1942 in a tragic accident. Her first nightime kill took place on 24 September 1942. (See below.) Khomyakova was the first woman fighter pilot to shoot down an enemy aircraft by night. This happened on 24 September 1942. On 5 October 1942 she crashed and was killed. The circumstances of her accidental death were never properly explained. See Reina Pennington, Wings, Women & War: Soviet Airwomen in World War II Combat. Lawrence, KS: University Press of Kansas, 2001, pp. 109 and 110. ( 209.161.230.158 ( talk) 21:59, 12 November 2008 (UTC))
A recent string of edits seems to go against policies about using Wikipedia as a forum for original research (see Wikipedia:No original research). User:Kjcottam has a username that appears to link her with Kazimiera J. (Jean) Cottam, PhD, an author who has published books about Soviet women in combat. The impression I'm getting is that Cottam has performed research that points to conclusions which differ materially from that which has been published by other authors. These conclusions hold the point of view that Litvyak did not die in 1943 and that the Soviet government didn't research the death adequately. I've decided to take much of Kjcottam's entries out, holding to a neutral point of view (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view), and use only the concept of inadequate Soviet research into Litvyak's death while keeping the official line that she received a mortal head wound on her last day of combat. Within Cottam's self-published entry at redarmyonline.org (a website that allows anybody to submit stories), I am not finding enough evidence to contradict the official Soviet conclusion. Evidence to the contrary appears weak. Binksternet ( talk) 05:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Like sightings of Elvis in Kalamazoo, all the evidence Cottam uses to "prove" Litvyak is alive is, at best, second hand. Someone may have heard her voice on a German radio 50+ years ago. Someone may have seen a woman she thought looked like Lydia decades later on Swiss TV. Litvyak might be living in Switzerland right now, Cottam claims ... really? Because Noggle, Pennington and Strebe all fail to mention these details. They do talk about female Soviet pilots who were captured by the Nazis and the concentration camps they were sent to and how members of the 588th would commit suicide over being taken prisoners of war (yes, yes, I know she wasn't part of the 588th). The only person who claims this is a "controversy" is Cottam herself, but fails to explain how Litvyak somehow survived getting shot down, survived being a prisoner of war, decided life as a national war hero too taxing and became a Swiss housewife [!?] instead who just happens to give out occasional interviews but nothing we can cite or reference. I mean, I love a good conspiracy theory like the next person, but has anyone actually read Polunina's Девчонки, подружки, летчицы? Take away that one book and the whole argument falls apart. Here's the letters to the editor where Cottam makes these claims (she cites her own work on this Wiki article as evidence):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-18520,00.html
Until Litvyak comes forward herself and tells us the story of how she went from Terror of the Nazis to Married, With Children, I'm going to assume she died in combat, sort of like what Noggle, Pennington and Strebe all claim from eye witnesses. Himeyuri ( talk) 15:30, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I've read Women in Air War: The Eastern Front of World War II which is why I say all her claims are second hand, at best (a ground mechanic 50+ years after the fact made this claim at a conference in San Diego, and that's all the proof that exists). If you can cite where in that book there is actual evidence that Litvak survived, other than the author simply saying it is so, please do so. Otherwise this sounds a lot like the whole faulty logic used in "Elvis Is Alive" where someone makes an outrageous claim and because there is no actual way to prove this, thus we now have a "controversy" (did Litvak also punch Hitler in the jaw?, since Women in the Air War makes her sound more like a superhero than an actual fighter pilot with her ability to cheat death) And speaking of poor editing and faulty logic, why are there two different photo captions on the same page of this article, each showing different planes, and each one claiming to be Litvak's first kill? The one on the left reads: A wrecked Junkers Ju 88: the first "victim" of Litvyak was an aircraft of this type and the one on the right reads: Restored Messerschmitt Bf 109G: The first fighter shot down by Litvyak was an aircraft of this type, flown by a Luftwaffe "ace". Which one is it? Himeyuri ( talk) 16:17, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
The section on kills needs to have more detail and more verification. A few of the kills don't have dates--in some cases they are simply listed in sources in a format similar to "two kills in March" with one of the kills not specified in terms of date and victim. In addition, it might be better to have this information in table format. Binksternet ( talk) 05:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm taking a recent edit from the article and bringing it here. It appeared to me to be a talk page entry. Binksternet ( talk) 20:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
“ | Unfortunately, much that has been written about Lidya Litvyak is hopelessly inaccurate. My name is Kazimiera J. Cottam, PhD, and my writing on Lidya Litvyak is judged by serious historians to be highly accurate. I insist on stating my name, because I have nothing to hide! My information about Litvyak's alleged death is the most credible and updates the information provided in Dr. Reina Pennington's otherwise excellent book. Here is what really happened to Litvyak following her crash landing: she was captured by the enemy and was seen in a German PoW camp by a fellow fighter pilot. Her fate afterwards is uncertain. [See my article "Litviak, Lidiia (Liliia) Vladimirovna (1921-, in Women and War: a Historical Encyclopedia from the Antiquity to the Present, Vol. II (ABC CLIO, Santa Barbara, California; Denver, Colorado; Oxford, England, 2006, pp. 379-380 and the online version of this encyclopedia.]
How do I know that my version is accurate? I was told during a reunion in San Diego in 2005 by Ekaterina Polunina, chief mechanic and archivist of the 586th Fighter Regiment in which Litvyak initially served that the alleged body in the common grave near Dmitrovka was never exhumed and there is absolutely no proof that Litvyak was buried there. This is documented in her book: Ekaterina Polunina, Devchonki, podruzhki, letchitsy (Moscow, 2004). Polunina ordered that a plaque with Litvyak's name be installed on that common grave, only because this was the only way to persuade the authorities to award the Hero of the Soviet Union to Litvyak. Such a subterfuge was necessitated by the mentality of the Soviet regime. Under the circumstances, Polunina appears to be a far more reliable witness than Pasportnikova as to whether Litvyak's body had been buried in that grave or not. Pasportnikova may not have been an eyewitness as Polunina had been. In addition, as documented in Polunina's book, Litvyak's comrade-in-arms Budanova had more independent kills than Litvyak had. |
” |
I read in Pennington's that Litvyak was moved to that regiment with three other pilots, so I correct the text that writes six. -- Gian piero milanetti ( talk) 06:37, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
But... is the sources that states that our Lydia scored two kills on 31 July, the day before her death, reliable? I mean... in no text I can find a reference about these air victories. There is not evidence of that in Pennington, Cottam , Noggle etc. -- Gian piero milanetti ( talk) 21:40, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
There is in bibliography two times the same Bergstrom book. Is there any reason for that? -- Gian piero milanetti ( talk) 23:55, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
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I know that the information is referenced, because I have the book that says that, but Orel is some hundreds kilometers north of the place where Litvyak aircraft fell down, in a place called Kozhevnya, where there is a memorial. Moreover, there is absolutely no evidence that Merkle was shot down by Litvyak. He was rammed and killed by a Yak-1 on Dmytrievka, but nobody saw Litvyak ramming him. Litvyak was seen for the last time while she was entering in a cloud, pursued by several German Bf 109s. I stop here for the moment. -- Gian piero milanetti ( talk) 04:36, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
I read in <Die Geschichte der I. Gruppe des Jagdgeschwaders 52 Offizielle Ausgabe der traditionsgemeinsch JG 52> by Bernd Barbas, pagg. 108-293 that II Gruppe JG 52 in September 1942 was in Maikop-Krymskaya, about 1,000 km far from Stallingrad, so how could Litvyak shot down a pilot from 4 Staffel JG 52 on 27 September 1942? -- Gian piero milanetti ( talk) 07:31, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
I think that the table with the kills of Litvyak should be deeply corrected if not deleted at all. I have just published today the most updated book about Soviet airwomen, with the newest and unpublished data and information about Litvyak available on the market. There is absolutely - for instance - no evidence that Litvyak on 16 july shot down a German ace. That day the Luftwaffe Experten listed in the teble belly landed for an engine failure subsequently an air fight. Now, this is NOT a kill. Moreover, there is only one source - Pennington, pag. 140 - that states that Litvyak that day scored a kill, while Cottam (Women in War and Resistence) writes that Litvyak that day had just to belly land. But there is absolutely no proof that anyway the German ace was hit by Litvyak, as there is not known any claims record on Litvyak side where is noted exactly the Planquadrat Koordinaten or the exact point of any of her air victory. Still, on 1st of August 1943, the Jagdeschwaders engaged along the Mius front had not aircraft damaged and Litvyak was not the one who "taran"ned Merkle, as no one of the witness saw and says that. So I propose to delete those unaccurate credited victories. -- Gian piero milanetti ( talk) 22:39, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
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As the author of the most updated book about the Soviet airwomen I am forced to repeat that the article is full of unaccuracies, the table with the kills is ridiculous, as there are not reliable sources and the sources quoted are NOT verifiable. Gian piero milanetti ( talk) 05:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
I have several times now removed the mention of www.absoluteastronomy.com. I cannot figure how this website, consisting of user discussions, is at all reliable for our purposes. It does not meet the WP:Reliable sources guideline. Please explain the reason for putting it into the article as a reference, just so we can have a basis for discussion. Binksternet ( talk) 01:11, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Aside from the embarrassment of being shot down by a 21 year old woman, if it is true, there seems to be no accounts of Litvyak in German literature. At least I havn't found one. Could the 'female ace thing' just be propaganda? It certainly fits in with the Communist ideal. Dapi89 ( talk) 12:19, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
Any one fluently speaking and writing both languages? It seems that the letter "я" is read "Ya", but not if it comes after a Consonant as it is here. עמירם פאל ( talk) 10:32, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
I have not checked this page lately... there are absolutely wrong informations: I have been in Dmitryevka where Litvyak is officially buried in Brotherhood Tomb no 19, and where she was shot down, while clashing with German Messerchmitts of JG 52 or JG 3. The place is in south-east Ukraine, several hundreds miles south-east of Orel, I can't believe it! -- Gian piero milanetti ( talk) 22:46, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
Is it possible for you to edit the material in question? I agree with what you say but I do not have the information to make the corrections you point out. If there is any way I can be of service please let me know. Corrections need to be made. Beag maclir ( talk) 15:12, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Since when is the Soviet Union's official data about Litvyak, and in general, treated like a fountain of truth? Kazimiera. J. Cottam, PhD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.36.118.140 ( talk • contribs)
K. J. Cottam was employed by Canadian Military Intelligence and was awarded a very high security clearance. The Canadian military found her completely trustworthy. Yet she is perpetually insulted by opinionated individuals who say nonsense about the fate of Lidya Litvyak. I am convinced that in the end the truth, i.e. Cottam's solid and dependable writing, will prevail. (Anonymous.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.157.207.157 ( talk) 18:58, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
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This statement is solely based on Israeli sources from recent years - a propaganda article by Israeli Air Force, a transcript of a speech by Israeli defense minister who barely mentions Litvyak and two articles, one of them also barely mentions her. None of them provides any sources in support of her supposed Jewish origins, they only state that for some reason she is commemorated as a Jewish pilot in Israel and that few people are aware of that. At the same time, the scan of the official Award list from 1943 where Litvyak's ethnicity is clearly written down as "Russian" is simply removed by עמירם פאל. This is not gonna be s stable version unless he comes up with some strong evidence. AveTory ( talk) 15:55, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 19:36, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
The kill total listed here for Aleksey Solomatin does not match any of the figures given in Solomatin's own entry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8001:4700:7D64:F935:EA9E:700:E4C1 ( talk) 00:09, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
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A scholarly paper I found says that Gerhard Maak was NOT Litvyak's first kill, but was Lieutenant Valeriya Khomyakova's first, and on 24 September 1943, not 27 September 1942. This source says a pilot named Maier was Litvyak's first kill. I'm taking Maak out and putting Maier in. Binksternet ( talk) 05:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Lieutenant Valerya Khomyakova could not have scored her first kill on 24 September 1943, as she was killed on 5 October 1942 in a tragic accident. Her first nightime kill took place on 24 September 1942. (See below.) Khomyakova was the first woman fighter pilot to shoot down an enemy aircraft by night. This happened on 24 September 1942. On 5 October 1942 she crashed and was killed. The circumstances of her accidental death were never properly explained. See Reina Pennington, Wings, Women & War: Soviet Airwomen in World War II Combat. Lawrence, KS: University Press of Kansas, 2001, pp. 109 and 110. ( 209.161.230.158 ( talk) 21:59, 12 November 2008 (UTC))
A recent string of edits seems to go against policies about using Wikipedia as a forum for original research (see Wikipedia:No original research). User:Kjcottam has a username that appears to link her with Kazimiera J. (Jean) Cottam, PhD, an author who has published books about Soviet women in combat. The impression I'm getting is that Cottam has performed research that points to conclusions which differ materially from that which has been published by other authors. These conclusions hold the point of view that Litvyak did not die in 1943 and that the Soviet government didn't research the death adequately. I've decided to take much of Kjcottam's entries out, holding to a neutral point of view (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view), and use only the concept of inadequate Soviet research into Litvyak's death while keeping the official line that she received a mortal head wound on her last day of combat. Within Cottam's self-published entry at redarmyonline.org (a website that allows anybody to submit stories), I am not finding enough evidence to contradict the official Soviet conclusion. Evidence to the contrary appears weak. Binksternet ( talk) 05:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Like sightings of Elvis in Kalamazoo, all the evidence Cottam uses to "prove" Litvyak is alive is, at best, second hand. Someone may have heard her voice on a German radio 50+ years ago. Someone may have seen a woman she thought looked like Lydia decades later on Swiss TV. Litvyak might be living in Switzerland right now, Cottam claims ... really? Because Noggle, Pennington and Strebe all fail to mention these details. They do talk about female Soviet pilots who were captured by the Nazis and the concentration camps they were sent to and how members of the 588th would commit suicide over being taken prisoners of war (yes, yes, I know she wasn't part of the 588th). The only person who claims this is a "controversy" is Cottam herself, but fails to explain how Litvyak somehow survived getting shot down, survived being a prisoner of war, decided life as a national war hero too taxing and became a Swiss housewife [!?] instead who just happens to give out occasional interviews but nothing we can cite or reference. I mean, I love a good conspiracy theory like the next person, but has anyone actually read Polunina's Девчонки, подружки, летчицы? Take away that one book and the whole argument falls apart. Here's the letters to the editor where Cottam makes these claims (she cites her own work on this Wiki article as evidence):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-18520,00.html
Until Litvyak comes forward herself and tells us the story of how she went from Terror of the Nazis to Married, With Children, I'm going to assume she died in combat, sort of like what Noggle, Pennington and Strebe all claim from eye witnesses. Himeyuri ( talk) 15:30, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I've read Women in Air War: The Eastern Front of World War II which is why I say all her claims are second hand, at best (a ground mechanic 50+ years after the fact made this claim at a conference in San Diego, and that's all the proof that exists). If you can cite where in that book there is actual evidence that Litvak survived, other than the author simply saying it is so, please do so. Otherwise this sounds a lot like the whole faulty logic used in "Elvis Is Alive" where someone makes an outrageous claim and because there is no actual way to prove this, thus we now have a "controversy" (did Litvak also punch Hitler in the jaw?, since Women in the Air War makes her sound more like a superhero than an actual fighter pilot with her ability to cheat death) And speaking of poor editing and faulty logic, why are there two different photo captions on the same page of this article, each showing different planes, and each one claiming to be Litvak's first kill? The one on the left reads: A wrecked Junkers Ju 88: the first "victim" of Litvyak was an aircraft of this type and the one on the right reads: Restored Messerschmitt Bf 109G: The first fighter shot down by Litvyak was an aircraft of this type, flown by a Luftwaffe "ace". Which one is it? Himeyuri ( talk) 16:17, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
The section on kills needs to have more detail and more verification. A few of the kills don't have dates--in some cases they are simply listed in sources in a format similar to "two kills in March" with one of the kills not specified in terms of date and victim. In addition, it might be better to have this information in table format. Binksternet ( talk) 05:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm taking a recent edit from the article and bringing it here. It appeared to me to be a talk page entry. Binksternet ( talk) 20:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
“ | Unfortunately, much that has been written about Lidya Litvyak is hopelessly inaccurate. My name is Kazimiera J. Cottam, PhD, and my writing on Lidya Litvyak is judged by serious historians to be highly accurate. I insist on stating my name, because I have nothing to hide! My information about Litvyak's alleged death is the most credible and updates the information provided in Dr. Reina Pennington's otherwise excellent book. Here is what really happened to Litvyak following her crash landing: she was captured by the enemy and was seen in a German PoW camp by a fellow fighter pilot. Her fate afterwards is uncertain. [See my article "Litviak, Lidiia (Liliia) Vladimirovna (1921-, in Women and War: a Historical Encyclopedia from the Antiquity to the Present, Vol. II (ABC CLIO, Santa Barbara, California; Denver, Colorado; Oxford, England, 2006, pp. 379-380 and the online version of this encyclopedia.]
How do I know that my version is accurate? I was told during a reunion in San Diego in 2005 by Ekaterina Polunina, chief mechanic and archivist of the 586th Fighter Regiment in which Litvyak initially served that the alleged body in the common grave near Dmitrovka was never exhumed and there is absolutely no proof that Litvyak was buried there. This is documented in her book: Ekaterina Polunina, Devchonki, podruzhki, letchitsy (Moscow, 2004). Polunina ordered that a plaque with Litvyak's name be installed on that common grave, only because this was the only way to persuade the authorities to award the Hero of the Soviet Union to Litvyak. Such a subterfuge was necessitated by the mentality of the Soviet regime. Under the circumstances, Polunina appears to be a far more reliable witness than Pasportnikova as to whether Litvyak's body had been buried in that grave or not. Pasportnikova may not have been an eyewitness as Polunina had been. In addition, as documented in Polunina's book, Litvyak's comrade-in-arms Budanova had more independent kills than Litvyak had. |
” |
I read in Pennington's that Litvyak was moved to that regiment with three other pilots, so I correct the text that writes six. -- Gian piero milanetti ( talk) 06:37, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
But... is the sources that states that our Lydia scored two kills on 31 July, the day before her death, reliable? I mean... in no text I can find a reference about these air victories. There is not evidence of that in Pennington, Cottam , Noggle etc. -- Gian piero milanetti ( talk) 21:40, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
There is in bibliography two times the same Bergstrom book. Is there any reason for that? -- Gian piero milanetti ( talk) 23:55, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
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File:Order of Lenin.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Deletion requests June 2011
|
A discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so (
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This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 19:44, 18 June 2011 (UTC) |
I know that the information is referenced, because I have the book that says that, but Orel is some hundreds kilometers north of the place where Litvyak aircraft fell down, in a place called Kozhevnya, where there is a memorial. Moreover, there is absolutely no evidence that Merkle was shot down by Litvyak. He was rammed and killed by a Yak-1 on Dmytrievka, but nobody saw Litvyak ramming him. Litvyak was seen for the last time while she was entering in a cloud, pursued by several German Bf 109s. I stop here for the moment. -- Gian piero milanetti ( talk) 04:36, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
I read in <Die Geschichte der I. Gruppe des Jagdgeschwaders 52 Offizielle Ausgabe der traditionsgemeinsch JG 52> by Bernd Barbas, pagg. 108-293 that II Gruppe JG 52 in September 1942 was in Maikop-Krymskaya, about 1,000 km far from Stallingrad, so how could Litvyak shot down a pilot from 4 Staffel JG 52 on 27 September 1942? -- Gian piero milanetti ( talk) 07:31, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
I think that the table with the kills of Litvyak should be deeply corrected if not deleted at all. I have just published today the most updated book about Soviet airwomen, with the newest and unpublished data and information about Litvyak available on the market. There is absolutely - for instance - no evidence that Litvyak on 16 july shot down a German ace. That day the Luftwaffe Experten listed in the teble belly landed for an engine failure subsequently an air fight. Now, this is NOT a kill. Moreover, there is only one source - Pennington, pag. 140 - that states that Litvyak that day scored a kill, while Cottam (Women in War and Resistence) writes that Litvyak that day had just to belly land. But there is absolutely no proof that anyway the German ace was hit by Litvyak, as there is not known any claims record on Litvyak side where is noted exactly the Planquadrat Koordinaten or the exact point of any of her air victory. Still, on 1st of August 1943, the Jagdeschwaders engaged along the Mius front had not aircraft damaged and Litvyak was not the one who "taran"ned Merkle, as no one of the witness saw and says that. So I propose to delete those unaccurate credited victories. -- Gian piero milanetti ( talk) 22:39, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
![]() |
An image used in this article,
File:OrderOfLeninType1.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests January 2012
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 15:48, 6 January 2012 (UTC) |
As the author of the most updated book about the Soviet airwomen I am forced to repeat that the article is full of unaccuracies, the table with the kills is ridiculous, as there are not reliable sources and the sources quoted are NOT verifiable. Gian piero milanetti ( talk) 05:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
I have several times now removed the mention of www.absoluteastronomy.com. I cannot figure how this website, consisting of user discussions, is at all reliable for our purposes. It does not meet the WP:Reliable sources guideline. Please explain the reason for putting it into the article as a reference, just so we can have a basis for discussion. Binksternet ( talk) 01:11, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Aside from the embarrassment of being shot down by a 21 year old woman, if it is true, there seems to be no accounts of Litvyak in German literature. At least I havn't found one. Could the 'female ace thing' just be propaganda? It certainly fits in with the Communist ideal. Dapi89 ( talk) 12:19, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
Any one fluently speaking and writing both languages? It seems that the letter "я" is read "Ya", but not if it comes after a Consonant as it is here. עמירם פאל ( talk) 10:32, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
I have not checked this page lately... there are absolutely wrong informations: I have been in Dmitryevka where Litvyak is officially buried in Brotherhood Tomb no 19, and where she was shot down, while clashing with German Messerchmitts of JG 52 or JG 3. The place is in south-east Ukraine, several hundreds miles south-east of Orel, I can't believe it! -- Gian piero milanetti ( talk) 22:46, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
Is it possible for you to edit the material in question? I agree with what you say but I do not have the information to make the corrections you point out. If there is any way I can be of service please let me know. Corrections need to be made. Beag maclir ( talk) 15:12, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Since when is the Soviet Union's official data about Litvyak, and in general, treated like a fountain of truth? Kazimiera. J. Cottam, PhD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.36.118.140 ( talk • contribs)
K. J. Cottam was employed by Canadian Military Intelligence and was awarded a very high security clearance. The Canadian military found her completely trustworthy. Yet she is perpetually insulted by opinionated individuals who say nonsense about the fate of Lidya Litvyak. I am convinced that in the end the truth, i.e. Cottam's solid and dependable writing, will prevail. (Anonymous.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.157.207.157 ( talk) 18:58, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:12, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
This statement is solely based on Israeli sources from recent years - a propaganda article by Israeli Air Force, a transcript of a speech by Israeli defense minister who barely mentions Litvyak and two articles, one of them also barely mentions her. None of them provides any sources in support of her supposed Jewish origins, they only state that for some reason she is commemorated as a Jewish pilot in Israel and that few people are aware of that. At the same time, the scan of the official Award list from 1943 where Litvyak's ethnicity is clearly written down as "Russian" is simply removed by עמירם פאל. This is not gonna be s stable version unless he comes up with some strong evidence. AveTory ( talk) 15:55, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 19:36, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
The kill total listed here for Aleksey Solomatin does not match any of the figures given in Solomatin's own entry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8001:4700:7D64:F935:EA9E:700:E4C1 ( talk) 00:09, 10 December 2021 (UTC)