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This article seemingly deals only with Lutheran chorales. This is misleading: Chorales clearly existed long before Luther. I changed the introduction in an auxiliary manner (see diff ). But I am far from being knowing enough to mend the article. Tomdo08 ( talk) 01:09, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Originally choral settings of Lutheran hymn tunes, and later also several instrumental genres, e.g. organ pieces from around the 17th century, and pieces for orchestra or piano from around the 19th century.
Essential characteristics of a chorale:
Later chorales not necessarily combine all of these characteristics, e.g.:
Role in development of four-part harmony
Derivative genres such as chorale fantasia
Rhythmic approach (metre: as well for text as for melody) as opposed to preceding Gregorian chant.
Building block of Harmonielehre (≈canon of Western music) as taught from the late 17th to 21st century
Walter 1524 → ...
Melody in tenor part
Bulk of hymn text and hymn tune creations
Schein's Cantional etc
In such hymnals the composer providing the harmonisation may be more often mentioned than the composer of the original hymn tune
Hymn tune mostly in highest vocal part (exceptions where the hymn tune remains in the tenor are indicated as fauxbourdon settings)
More or less fixed associations of hymn texts with hymn tunes
Organ chorales: ..., Pachelbel, ...
Bach etc:
Congregational singing (i.e. choraliter, as opposed to figuraliter) however moves toward monodic singing of the chorale melody, with an instrumental accompaniment for the harmony; less hymn tunes used: texts with a similar metre scheme can be sung to a better-known melody.
Revival, Mendelssohn etc
Hymnology, e.g. Zahn
Romantic interpretations, e.g. symphonies, chorales not necessarily based on a pre-existing tune
More revival and (late) romantic interpretations, e.g. Busoni
Modern interpretations, e.g. Satie
Originally choral music, later also diverse types of instrumental music
"Stollen" type
Archetype: four-part harmony, SATB, homophony
Hymnals:
Collections, e.g. Bach's four-part chorale editions
Colla parte accompaniment, e.g. closing chorales of Bach-cantatas
Chorale fantasia, e.g. opening movement of St Matthew Passion (in English rather called Chorus than Chorale)
Voice and continuo, e.g. Schemellis Gesangbuch (1736) – rather called Lied in German
In instrumental chorale settings, as well emulations of four-part homophony, as chorale fantasia type of approaches exist.
Originally Choralbearbeitung, setting of a pre-existing chorale melody
Chorale preludes, e.g. Erster Theil etlicher Choräle (Pachelbel), Clavier-Übung III (Bach)
Not based on pre-existing hymn tunes, e.g. César Franck's Trois chorals
In symphonies, e.g. Mendelssohn, Saint-Saëns, Mahler
Piano, e.g. Franck, Busoni, Satie
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 06:49, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
How about moving this thread, to Talk:Chorale and/or to an archive? -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 10:09, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth ( talk) 01:53, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
The opening at present is "A chorale is a melody to which a hymn is sung by a congregation in a German Protestant Church service." I don't understand it. I believe that a chorale (= Choral?) is not "a melody" nor is it defined by the melody alone. I also don't think that it is exclusively German. Gregorianischer Choral ( Gregorian chant) is mostly in Latin. How does chorale compare to hymn? How to Chorale setting? (Thinking of Berg's use of Bach's chorale in his violin concerto.) - How does Chorale (=Kantorei), a choir dedicated mostly to sacred music ( Gächinger Kantorei) come into play? How Choralschola. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 17:07, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Moved here from Talk:Chorale#chorale vs. hymn:
I confess to not like the deep link to Liturgy in Lutheranism, as it doesn't even arrive at the section header (possibly because of tags?), starting (for me) mid-sentence with "is well known for its doctrinal, didactic, and musical richness". How helpful is that? If you find the section header, you still don't know in wich article you, and read about Norwegian minorities, first thing. I made Lutheran hymn a redirect to Lutheran chorale because I believe the two terms mean pretty much the same. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 14:27, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Please continue talk here, on this topic -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 15:32, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
@ Gerda Arendt: please stop converting [[Lutheran hymn]] to [[Lutheran chorale|Lutheran hymn]]. In most cases the conversion is incorrect. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:30, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
See p. viii of the Lightwood source I just added to the "Further reading" section: in certain contexts the word "hymn" can apparently refer to the text of the hymn only (without its setting to whatever tune). Summarizing: "hymn" can mean (in certain contexts) "words only"; "chorale" can mean (in certain contexts) "tune (or setting) only"; "hymn" and "chorale" are only synonyms in those contexts where both text and tune are meant; for Wikipedia usage I suggest to use "hymn text"/"words of the hymn"/"stanzas of the hymn"/"chorale translation"/(etc) when the context doesn't make otherwise clear that only the text is meant, and conversely "hymn tune"/"chorale melody"/"chorale setting"/(etc) when the context doesn't make otherwise clear that only the music is meant; when both text and associated (monodic) melody are meant I'd prefer "hymn" over "chorale"; when "text" + "tune" + "continuo accompaniment" are meant still rather "hymn" than "chorale"; when a more elaborate composition is meant, with or without sung text (e.g. a chorale prelude or a SATB chorale harmonisation) I'd prefer "chorale" over "hymn". -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:47, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
Today, this is the lead:
My questions, which may be silly.
A Lutheran chorale is a chorale (or hymn) written for use primarily in Lutheran church services, to be sung by the congregation. Early Lutheran chorales were developed in the process of the Reformation, when Martin Luther encouraged congregational singing, and wrote several hymns himself, often derived from Latin and German traditional models. Characteristic elements were strophic form and rhythmic music. For the musical aspect, Luther was assisted by Johann Walter who helped with the melodies and wrote musical settings for several parts, first published in the choral hymnal Eyn geystlich Gesangk Buchleyn (A sacred song booklet) in 1524. Several hymnals followed, ... Lutheran chorales were translated to other languages ... -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 08:31, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
How about this:
A Lutheran chorale is a musical setting of a Lutheran hymn. Such hymns are characterised by a metrical hymn text and an associated hymn tune which is metrical in a musical sense. In a narrow sense the musical setting of the Lutheran hymn can refer to the associated hymn tune, also known as chorale melody. The term Lutheran chorale can also refer to more extended musical settings of, or associated with, a Lutheran hymn. For instance, and most typically, a four-part harmony setting for a SATB chorus rendering the hymn text in homophony, or a piece for organ incorporating a Lutheran chorale tune. These organ compositions are often indicated as chorale prelude, whether or not they were intended as a prelude.
? (this would probably call for some further updates to the article text...) -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:51, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
A Lutheran hymn is a sacred song for a Lutheran church service, intended to be sung by the congregation. These hymns were introduced during the Reformation. They are are characterised by a metrical hymn text and an associated hymn tune which is metrical in a musical sense. Such a hymn was also called a Lutheran chorale, or just a chorale. The term chorale is also applied to the typical four-part harmony setting of a hymn tune (or chorale melody) for a SATB chorus rendering the hymn text in homophony. Single hymn stanzas in four-part settings have been used in cantatas and oratorios, especially by Johann Sebastian Bach. Other musical forms derived from Lutheran hymns include settings for organ, often indicated as chorale prelude whether or not they were intended as a prelude, and extended settings for choir such as chorale cantatas, which often begin with a chorale fantasia. Lutheran hymn tunes have been quoted in symphonies and operas.
Thus far I couldn't find any example of someone calling the tune of a Lutheran hymn a chorale before the late 19th century (and even these examples, i.e. in Busoni's oeuvre, are ambiguous because they don't distinguish between the composer of a hymn tune and the composer elaborating that tune into a four-part chorale). Is there any reliable source that can confirm that a (Lutheran) hymn tune is called "chorale" in the 16th century? 17th century? 18th century? first half of the 19th century? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 10:52, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
@ Meneerke bloem: is there any reliable source that can explain what Bruckner thought about the Lutheran chorale, and/or whether he used any of them in his own music? The current Lutheran chorale article is already quite biased for not mentioning the *highly desirable* content on Mendelssohn and the Lutheran chorale (etc.), let's not unbalance it further with extended content on remote topics, please. Tx. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 10:50, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
To my surprise Johannes Zahn and his system of classifying all tunes/melodies of hymns "sung by a congregation in a German Protestant Church service" are not yet mentioned in this article. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 07:00, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This topic is in need of attention from an expert on the subject. The section or sections that need attention may be noted in a message below. |
This article seemingly deals only with Lutheran chorales. This is misleading: Chorales clearly existed long before Luther. I changed the introduction in an auxiliary manner (see diff ). But I am far from being knowing enough to mend the article. Tomdo08 ( talk) 01:09, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Originally choral settings of Lutheran hymn tunes, and later also several instrumental genres, e.g. organ pieces from around the 17th century, and pieces for orchestra or piano from around the 19th century.
Essential characteristics of a chorale:
Later chorales not necessarily combine all of these characteristics, e.g.:
Role in development of four-part harmony
Derivative genres such as chorale fantasia
Rhythmic approach (metre: as well for text as for melody) as opposed to preceding Gregorian chant.
Building block of Harmonielehre (≈canon of Western music) as taught from the late 17th to 21st century
Walter 1524 → ...
Melody in tenor part
Bulk of hymn text and hymn tune creations
Schein's Cantional etc
In such hymnals the composer providing the harmonisation may be more often mentioned than the composer of the original hymn tune
Hymn tune mostly in highest vocal part (exceptions where the hymn tune remains in the tenor are indicated as fauxbourdon settings)
More or less fixed associations of hymn texts with hymn tunes
Organ chorales: ..., Pachelbel, ...
Bach etc:
Congregational singing (i.e. choraliter, as opposed to figuraliter) however moves toward monodic singing of the chorale melody, with an instrumental accompaniment for the harmony; less hymn tunes used: texts with a similar metre scheme can be sung to a better-known melody.
Revival, Mendelssohn etc
Hymnology, e.g. Zahn
Romantic interpretations, e.g. symphonies, chorales not necessarily based on a pre-existing tune
More revival and (late) romantic interpretations, e.g. Busoni
Modern interpretations, e.g. Satie
Originally choral music, later also diverse types of instrumental music
"Stollen" type
Archetype: four-part harmony, SATB, homophony
Hymnals:
Collections, e.g. Bach's four-part chorale editions
Colla parte accompaniment, e.g. closing chorales of Bach-cantatas
Chorale fantasia, e.g. opening movement of St Matthew Passion (in English rather called Chorus than Chorale)
Voice and continuo, e.g. Schemellis Gesangbuch (1736) – rather called Lied in German
In instrumental chorale settings, as well emulations of four-part homophony, as chorale fantasia type of approaches exist.
Originally Choralbearbeitung, setting of a pre-existing chorale melody
Chorale preludes, e.g. Erster Theil etlicher Choräle (Pachelbel), Clavier-Übung III (Bach)
Not based on pre-existing hymn tunes, e.g. César Franck's Trois chorals
In symphonies, e.g. Mendelssohn, Saint-Saëns, Mahler
Piano, e.g. Franck, Busoni, Satie
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 06:49, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
How about moving this thread, to Talk:Chorale and/or to an archive? -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 10:09, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth ( talk) 01:53, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
The opening at present is "A chorale is a melody to which a hymn is sung by a congregation in a German Protestant Church service." I don't understand it. I believe that a chorale (= Choral?) is not "a melody" nor is it defined by the melody alone. I also don't think that it is exclusively German. Gregorianischer Choral ( Gregorian chant) is mostly in Latin. How does chorale compare to hymn? How to Chorale setting? (Thinking of Berg's use of Bach's chorale in his violin concerto.) - How does Chorale (=Kantorei), a choir dedicated mostly to sacred music ( Gächinger Kantorei) come into play? How Choralschola. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 17:07, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Moved here from Talk:Chorale#chorale vs. hymn:
I confess to not like the deep link to Liturgy in Lutheranism, as it doesn't even arrive at the section header (possibly because of tags?), starting (for me) mid-sentence with "is well known for its doctrinal, didactic, and musical richness". How helpful is that? If you find the section header, you still don't know in wich article you, and read about Norwegian minorities, first thing. I made Lutheran hymn a redirect to Lutheran chorale because I believe the two terms mean pretty much the same. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 14:27, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Please continue talk here, on this topic -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 15:32, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
@ Gerda Arendt: please stop converting [[Lutheran hymn]] to [[Lutheran chorale|Lutheran hymn]]. In most cases the conversion is incorrect. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:30, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
See p. viii of the Lightwood source I just added to the "Further reading" section: in certain contexts the word "hymn" can apparently refer to the text of the hymn only (without its setting to whatever tune). Summarizing: "hymn" can mean (in certain contexts) "words only"; "chorale" can mean (in certain contexts) "tune (or setting) only"; "hymn" and "chorale" are only synonyms in those contexts where both text and tune are meant; for Wikipedia usage I suggest to use "hymn text"/"words of the hymn"/"stanzas of the hymn"/"chorale translation"/(etc) when the context doesn't make otherwise clear that only the text is meant, and conversely "hymn tune"/"chorale melody"/"chorale setting"/(etc) when the context doesn't make otherwise clear that only the music is meant; when both text and associated (monodic) melody are meant I'd prefer "hymn" over "chorale"; when "text" + "tune" + "continuo accompaniment" are meant still rather "hymn" than "chorale"; when a more elaborate composition is meant, with or without sung text (e.g. a chorale prelude or a SATB chorale harmonisation) I'd prefer "chorale" over "hymn". -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:47, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
Today, this is the lead:
My questions, which may be silly.
A Lutheran chorale is a chorale (or hymn) written for use primarily in Lutheran church services, to be sung by the congregation. Early Lutheran chorales were developed in the process of the Reformation, when Martin Luther encouraged congregational singing, and wrote several hymns himself, often derived from Latin and German traditional models. Characteristic elements were strophic form and rhythmic music. For the musical aspect, Luther was assisted by Johann Walter who helped with the melodies and wrote musical settings for several parts, first published in the choral hymnal Eyn geystlich Gesangk Buchleyn (A sacred song booklet) in 1524. Several hymnals followed, ... Lutheran chorales were translated to other languages ... -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 08:31, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
How about this:
A Lutheran chorale is a musical setting of a Lutheran hymn. Such hymns are characterised by a metrical hymn text and an associated hymn tune which is metrical in a musical sense. In a narrow sense the musical setting of the Lutheran hymn can refer to the associated hymn tune, also known as chorale melody. The term Lutheran chorale can also refer to more extended musical settings of, or associated with, a Lutheran hymn. For instance, and most typically, a four-part harmony setting for a SATB chorus rendering the hymn text in homophony, or a piece for organ incorporating a Lutheran chorale tune. These organ compositions are often indicated as chorale prelude, whether or not they were intended as a prelude.
? (this would probably call for some further updates to the article text...) -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:51, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
A Lutheran hymn is a sacred song for a Lutheran church service, intended to be sung by the congregation. These hymns were introduced during the Reformation. They are are characterised by a metrical hymn text and an associated hymn tune which is metrical in a musical sense. Such a hymn was also called a Lutheran chorale, or just a chorale. The term chorale is also applied to the typical four-part harmony setting of a hymn tune (or chorale melody) for a SATB chorus rendering the hymn text in homophony. Single hymn stanzas in four-part settings have been used in cantatas and oratorios, especially by Johann Sebastian Bach. Other musical forms derived from Lutheran hymns include settings for organ, often indicated as chorale prelude whether or not they were intended as a prelude, and extended settings for choir such as chorale cantatas, which often begin with a chorale fantasia. Lutheran hymn tunes have been quoted in symphonies and operas.
Thus far I couldn't find any example of someone calling the tune of a Lutheran hymn a chorale before the late 19th century (and even these examples, i.e. in Busoni's oeuvre, are ambiguous because they don't distinguish between the composer of a hymn tune and the composer elaborating that tune into a four-part chorale). Is there any reliable source that can confirm that a (Lutheran) hymn tune is called "chorale" in the 16th century? 17th century? 18th century? first half of the 19th century? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 10:52, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
@ Meneerke bloem: is there any reliable source that can explain what Bruckner thought about the Lutheran chorale, and/or whether he used any of them in his own music? The current Lutheran chorale article is already quite biased for not mentioning the *highly desirable* content on Mendelssohn and the Lutheran chorale (etc.), let's not unbalance it further with extended content on remote topics, please. Tx. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 10:50, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
To my surprise Johannes Zahn and his system of classifying all tunes/melodies of hymns "sung by a congregation in a German Protestant Church service" are not yet mentioned in this article. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 07:00, 26 October 2017 (UTC)