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"Lusitanic" is not a word in any language. ( Y26Z3 ( talk) 06:27, 16 May 2012 (UTC))
I wouldn't dare to say "Lusitanic is not a word in any language ". I'm not sure, but I've seen it in a Provençal or other Occitan languages. I don't speak all languages of the world.
And just a reminder, English has not a regulating language body like French Academy, or the Royal Academy for Spanish Language. A word may exist (and indeed many does, like Sudo) without being listed in dictionaries. A published glossary compiled by a linguistic or ethnographer is scientifically valid for recording unlisted words.
I agree that "Lusitanic" is an original research in clear violation of Wikipedia policies. It certainly came out as parallel to Hispanic, and following the same logic, let's call the members of the Francophony "Gallic" and those living in the USA, "Gallic-American" (or perhaps "GaRlic-American"...)
-- Brighella11 ( talk) 11:49, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Here is an English source from 1771 that uses the word "Lusitanic": http://books.google.com/books/about/An_Anglo_Lusitanic_discourse.html?id=CIsV1JSJnMoC . It seems like the word "Lusitanic" actually has a long history in the English language. Goodsdrew ( talk) 21:49, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
The latest passage, which states,
should be included in the article. ( Y26Z3 ( talk) 19:00, 7 June 2012 (UTC))
No, that's not what that means at all, and each dictionary is done differently, and the ones you cited are certainly not the way you just described. Searching for a word and not finding it is not notable; simply stating over and over that it "passes WP:UNDUE" doesn't make this so. If you cannot find a source that explicitly and unambiguously says that lusitanic is not a word in a given dictionary, then it is undue for the article to state this; a website's internal search engine result is insufficient for this. This is the crux of why it was removed, and why it does not belong in the article. Unless this critical aspect is addressed you can respond all you'd like, you're not going to convince me otherwise. - Sudo Ghost 23:15, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
I also disagree with this passage. It implies that "Lusitanic" is not an English word, but we already have found an English language source from as far back as 1771 that uses it. There are hundreds of thousands of results from a google search of the word "Lusitanic." Clearly it is a real word. Goodsdrew ( talk) 20:12, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
References
The majority viewpoint is that "lusitanic" does not have enough citations to be recognized as a widely used word and may have usage limited to specific, isolated, or informal contexts. This is the majority viewpoint and it should be held in the article.
Thank you, ( Y26Z3 ( talk) 23:28, 7 June 2012 (UTC))
You've provided not a single source that directly supports anything, not one. What you have provided is WP:UNDUE and under no circumstances does a lack of something directly support its opposite. Now all of a sudden it's somehow racist? Aside from the fact that that makes no sense whatsoever, you're grasping at straws now and failing miserably. Unless you can demonstrate what you're saying, you're not going to convince me that there's some "majority viewpoint" that somehow doesn't have a single direct reliable source that can be shown. - Sudo Ghost 01:57, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
Y26Z3 contacted me, asking a couple of unrelated things at first. He then explained to me his argument that "luistanic" is libelous because it is a portmanteau of "lucifer" and "satan". This appears to be a conclusion which he and he alone has drawn, as it is clear that the article does not imply or openly state this contention whatsoever, and to argue that it does strikes me as extremely tenuous.
I would like to note that the websters-dictionary-online link Baseball Bugs put forward above appears to be out of the realm of consideration, because it quite clearly states underneath that it was "adapted by the editor from Wikipedia", from this page.
I agree with Someguy1221 that the solution to unverifiable material is not more unverifiable material - what should be indicative of the name of this article is not what dictionaries don't say, but what they do say. I am an English student with full access to several resources, including the OED, so I had my own investigation. I found the following:
LUSITANIA
— see portugal — Lu·si·ta·ni·an adjective or noun (
here)The prevalence of usage of a term is also relevant to its naming. Google Books can be used to demonstrate this, as is mentioned in article title policy.
...as can Google Scholar:
As a previously uninvolved party, I would suggest that, in light of the entries in several pretty authoritative dictionaries (none of which have any entry for "Lusitanic", and the 97% dominance of "Lusitanian" via both Google Books and Google Scholar, this article on the adjective pertaining to the culture of Lusitania should be moved to "Lusitanian". WilliamH ( talk) 22:42, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Y26Z3/Archive. Dougweller ( talk) 06:35, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
This page contains misleading and non-relevant information; and it doesn't allow me to remove it, because when I do it, minutes later it all comes back. The part "Portuguese speaking countries and regions in the world" has no relation whatsoever with this, because this word refers to Portuguese people (people from Portugal) and it has nothing to do with former colonies of the country, Portugal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThePortuguese ( talk • contribs) 21:35, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
That information is incorrect. It says at the beginning of the page itself: "When the modern day country of Portugal was created in the 12th century, it inherited the term, and thus, since then, Lusitanic has also meant related to Portugal, its people and its culture. When only referring to the Portuguese language, the word Lusophone should be used." Just like what LuzoGraal said is wrong, exactly because of this. "Lusophone" and "Lusitanic" are not the same thing. You can read the talk part entitled "comment" and you'll see they're saying this word is related to Portugal and its people, not ex-colonies. ThePortuguese ( talk) 22:08, 3 November 2012 (UTC)ThePortuguese I agree with the other users that said this page should re-direct to "Portuguese people". — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThePortuguese ( talk • contribs) 21:55, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
Like I said, "Lusophone" and "Lusitanic" are not the same thing. (the following is written in Portuguese...): lusitano (latim lusitanus, -a, -um) adj. 1. Relativo à Lusitânia. 2. Relativo a Portugal. = PORTUGUÊS s. m. 3. Natural ou habitante da Lusitânia. 4. Natural, habitante ou cidadão de Portugal. = PORTUGUÊS adj. s. m. 5. Diz-se de ou raça portuguesa de cavalos.
Translation: (Lusitanic/Lusitanian: 1. Relative to Lusitania. 2. Relative to Portugal = PORTUGUESE
3. Natural or inhabitant of Lusitania (which doesn't exist anymore) 4. Natural, inhabitant or citizen of Portugal = PORTUGUESE
5. A breed of horses.)
Source: http://www.priberam.pt/DLPO/default.aspx?pal=lusitano
lusófono
(luso- + -fono)
adj. s. m.
1. Que ou quem fala português.
adj.
2. Que tem o português como língua oficial ou dominante (ex.: país lusófono).
Sinónimo Geral: LUSOFALANTE
Lusophone: 1. One who is/speaks Portuguese. 2. Someone/something which official language is Portuguese.
http://www.priberam.pt/DLPO/default.aspx?pal=lus%C3%B3fono
Priberam is a very famous Portuguese dictionary. ThePortuguese ( talk) 22:17, 3 November 2012 (UTC) - ThePortuguese
Like others said, people don't even use this word that often! And it's not debatable because lusófono is a direct translation to Lusophone and lusitano is a direct translation to Lusitanic/Lusitanian. The English words had their origin on the Portuguese words and the meaning of those words is explained above. "And the question of Lusophone and Lusitanic is already mentioned in the introduction to the article." It is! It is contradicting what you're saying, explaining the differences between the two words!
ThePortuguese (
talk) 23:01, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
What you said doesn't make any sense and you're contradicting yourself! Tomorrow when I have the time, I'll elaborate more (on what is already very obvious...). As a Portuguese, you should know better! ThePortuguese ( talk) 23:37, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
Yes, LuzoGraal, you are contradicting. You said the words are synonyms and that's not true. Lusophones are the Portuguese and every individual whose first language is Portuguese. That's not the case with the word Lusitanic.
You (srushe) talk about proof, but the fact is that everything points to me being right: I already explained the difference between the two words with proof and it's also explained in the Wikipedia article itself when it says “When the modern day country of Portugal was created in the 12th century, it inherited the term, and thus, since then, Lusitanic has also meant related to Portugal, its people and its culture. When only referring to the Portuguese language, the word Lusophone should be used.". The article its in contradiction with itself; because what I just quoted is exactly the reason why the part about countries where people speak Portuguese is misleading and non-relevant information.
LuzoGraal talks about the supposed many times where the words are used interchangeably, and yet provides no sources or documentation (naturally, because those don't exist since that's just not true).
You had said to me "Please discuss your extensive deletions on the talk page. Ideally explain why you feel they're justified, rather than simply deleting vast swathes of well-sourced content.". The fact that the content is "well-sourced" doesn't mean it's related to the topic in question. I could go on and on adding well-sourced documented information about cats on a page about chairs! What's the point on keep adding information to an article that's not related to it? The difference is that you don't know about this terms because people outside of Portugal rarely use them, but I'm telling you as a well educated Portuguese person the differences! And I've provided the proof you wanted. And you can read in this talk page the “comment” section and see people saying Lusitanic refers to people from Portugal. But I'll keep adding: the origin of this word comes from an ancient tribe that inhabited most of Portugal and a little part of Spain. The name of that tribe was the Lusitanians. They were said to be very brave, so when Luís Vaz de Camões wrote “The Lusiads”, he used their name to refer to the Portuguese people as a whole. On the Wikipedia article entitled “Os Lusíadas”, it reads “key concepts: the heroes: The heroes of the epic are the Lusiads (Lusíadas), the sons of Lusus or in other words, the Portuguese.” As you can see, the Portuguese! This series of poems was made with the intention of glorifying the Portuguese people for the discoveries of new lands and it talks about the Lusos/Lusitanians/Lusitanics/Portuguese. Those words became interchangeable because of that poem (it's one of our great classics). Nowadays, when referring to people of Portuguese origin born in another country, the suffix used is “Luso” because of that. Luso means Portuguese! Examples: Luso-American, Luso-Brazilian (can you see the distinction?). If calling Brazilians Lusos/Lusitanians/Lusitanic were right, it wouldn't make any sense to call a Brazilian person of Portuguese origin “Luso-Brazilian”, because that would be a repetition. But the obvious is that Luso means Portuguese, so that term is used. Here: http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luso-brasileiros (the thing is, many of the sources are written in Portuguese, exactly because that word is not well known in the English language; but you can see without a translation that what's written on that page is “Luso-Brazilian”). Here, another source where the word is used, in English: https://www.gc.cuny.edu/Page-Elements/Academics-Research-Centers-Initiatives/Doctoral-Programs/Hispanic
You've got the definition of the words from the Portuguese dictionary “Priberam”, and now I'll add some more: Source: English Collins Dictionary - English Definition & Thesaurus “Lusitanian”: 1. Chiefly poetic: of or relating to Lusitania or Portugal 2. (Biology) denoting flora or fauna characteristically found only in the warm, moist, west-facing coastal regions of Portugal, Spain, France, and the west and southwest coasts of Great Britain and Ireland
Luso- : combining form: indicating Portugal or Portuguese (from Portuguese lusitano, from Latin, from Lusitania)
(this dictionary doesn't recognize “Lusitanic”)
Source: http://www.audioenglish.net/dictionary/lusitanian.htm
• LUSITANIAN (adjective) The adjective LUSITANIAN has 2 senses: 1. of or relating to or characteristic of Portugal or the people of Portugal 2. of or relating to or characteristic of the region of Lusitania or its people or language Familiarity information: LUSITANIAN used as an adjective is rare.
Dictionary entry details
• LUSITANIAN (adjective)
Sense 1
Meaning: Of or relating to or characteristic of Portugal or the people of Portugal Classified under: Relational adjectives (pertainyms) Synonyms: Lusitanian; Portuguese Context example: Portuguese wines
Sense 2
Meaning: Of or relating to or characteristic of the region of Lusitania or its people or language Classified under: Relational adjectives (pertainyms) Pertainym: Lusitania (ancient region and Roman province on the Iberian Peninsula; corresponds roughly to modern Portugal and parts of Spain)
As you can see here, when it talks about language, it talks about Lusitanian's ancient language, which was not Portuguese. The dictionaries don't even have a definition of “Lusitanic” (but Lusitanian is interchangeable with this word, just like Luso).
Source: http://www.infopedia.pt/pesquisa.jsp?qsFiltro=0&qsExpr=lusitano – this one is also a very popular Portuguese dictionary lusitano adjectivo 1. relativo ou pertencente aos Lusitanos (antigo povo pré-romano, estabelecido entre o Tejo e o Douro e as províncias espanholas de Cáceres e Badajoz); (Lusitan/Lusitanian – relative or belonging to the Lusitans (ancient pre-Roman peoples (then it says the location where they used to live)) 2. relativo ou pertencente à Lusitânia (antiga província romana) (relative or belonging to Lusitania (ancient pre-Roman province) 3. relativo ou pertencente a Portugal; português (relative or belonging to Portugal, Portuguese) nome masculino 1. membro dos Lusitanos (masculine name; a member of the Lusitans) 2. natural ou habitante da Lusitânia (natural or inhabitant of Lusitania) 3. natural ou habitante de Portugal; português (natural or inhabitant of Portugal, Portuguese) adjectivo e nome masculino designativo de ou raça de cavalos nascidos e criados em Portugal (adjective and masculine name; a breed of horses born and raised in Portugal) (Do latim lusitānu-, «idem»)
luso
adjectivo e nome masculino
⇒ lusitano
(Do latim Lusu-, «idem»)
(by writting “luso” it redirects to “lusitano” (lusitanian), meaning it's the same thing)
lusitânico adjectivo e nome masculino ⇒ lusitano (Do latim lusitanĭcu-, «idem»)
(by writting “lusitanic” it redirects to “lusitano” (lusitanian), meaning it's the same thing; just like it happened when I wrote “luso”)
Lusófono (lusophone)
adjectivo
1.
que fala português (who speaks Portuguese)
2.
diz-se do país ou do povo cuja língua materna ou língua oficial é o português (people or country whose official language is Portuguese)
nome masculino (masculine name)
aquele que fala português (he who speaks Portuguese)
(De luso-+-fono)
And now a Brazilian dictionary: Source: www.dicio.com.br Significado de Luso adj. e s.m. Da Lusitânia, de Portugal; lusitano. Sinônimos de Luso Sinônimo de luso: lusitano e português
(Meaning of “luso”: from Lusitania, from Portugal, Lusitanian. Synomyms of Luso: Lusitanian and Portuguese)
Significado de Lusitânico adj. O mesmo que lusitano.
(meaning of Lusitanic: the same as Lusitanian)
Significado de Lusitano
adj.
Relativo à Lusitânia ou aos seus habitantes.
Relativo a Portugal ou aos Portugueses. M. Habitante da Lusitânia. (Lat. lusitanus)
(meaning of Lusitanian: relative to Lusitania or its inhabitants; relative to Portugal or the Portuguese people; inhabitant of Lusitania)
(this one doesn't have a definition of Lusophone, although if you know Portuguese you can read by the examples where the word is used that this word is related to the Portuguese language, unlike the others that are only related to the Portuguese people, thus, excluding Brazilians and people from the ex-colonies)
One more example from a Brazilian dictionary: Source: http://michaelis.uol.com.br/moderno/portugues/index.php?lingua=portugues-portugues&palavra=lus%F3fono
lusófono lu.só.fo.no adj+sm (luso2+fono) 1 Diz-se do, ou o indivíduo que fala português. 2 Diz-se do, ou o indivíduo ou povo que, não tendo o português como seu vernáculo, fala-o por cultura ou por adoção como língua franca, tal como acontece em regiões africanas e asiáticas que sofreram influência dos antigos colonos portugueses. Var: lusófone.
(lusophone: 1 It's say of, or the individual that speaks Portuguese. 2. It's said of the individual that speaks Portuguese as official language, even if it's not the native one, like in some African and Asian regions. Variation: lusófone (in English, it would be the same thing: Lusophone))
lusitano lu.si.ta.no1 adj (lat lusitanu) 1 Que diz respeito à Lusitânia ou aos seus habitantes. 2 Que se refere a Portugal ou aos portugueses; lusitânico. sm 1 Habitante ou natural da Lusitânia. 2 Português. Var: luso. (Lusitanian: 1. That's relative to Lusitania or its inhabitants. 2. That refers to Portugal or the Portuguese people, Lusitanic. Sm 1. Inhabitant or natural of Lusitania. 2. Portuguese. Variant: Luso) Here, see? The three words used as synonyms. Just like in the other reliable sources that I used. Michaelis is a very well known Brazilian dictionary.
As you can see, one thing is Luso/Lusitanian/Lusitanic: related with the ancient tribe and associated with the Portuguese people and a different thing is Lusophone, associated with the countries/peoples whose official language is Portuguese. Being the title of the article in question “Lusitanic”, it doesn't make any sense to talk about Portugal's ex-colonies because the people who live there are not Portuguese and thus, are not related to this article (the majority of the people of those countries is not Portuguese, and the one's of Portuguese ancestry are called Luso-Brazilians (for example)). Like I said, the fact that there's such a word as “Luso-Brazilian” says it all! Take “Luso-Angolan” as another example: http://www.ela.uevora.pt/ (reliable source, that's the website of the University of Évora, you can read “Luso-Angolano” (Angola was a Portuguese colony as well)).
From what I said, hopefully you can see the ridiculous it is, that on a page entitled “Lusitanics” it talks about Portugal's ex-colonies. It's misleading information and it's wrong. If someone finds out about the word and looks it up, the person who finds this information can't even make up their mind because first it says (correctly) the distinction between the words Lusitanic and Lusophone, and then it talks about Lusophone countries in a page entitled Lusitanic. The page it's in contradiction with itself!
What LuzoGraal said about this being the English language Wikipedia doesn't make any sense, simply because those words' origin are Portuguese. If they didn't exist in Portuguese, they wouldn't exist in English, so their meaning is the same as in Portuguese because they are simply direct translations. And of course English speaking people didn't create their own meaning to this words because the great majority doesn't even know they exist!
Further, you also don't let me edit the part on the article “Lusitanians” that also has incorrect information, and it was just 1 phrase, so what's your excuse? That information is wrong and misleading and you can't even say it was a major edit. Besides, aren't you claiming for sources? I've got mine, what's their source? None! A reliable source doesn't existing to support what they say because it's simply not true so it's impossible to have a reliable source on that!
It's not a matter of opinion what I'm saying; it's the truth so delete what I had deleted! ThePortuguese ( talk) 12:24, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
Bear in mind that the Wikipedia in English is for the current word usage and not the original meanings in Portuguese, Latin, French, Kikongo or whatsoever.
There should be a disambiguation page about the following:
Brighella11 ( talk) 13:24, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia is about the past and the present meanings, though, not just the present... I said all of that to make my point more clear. Like I said before, since this word originated in the Portuguese language and it's only present in the English language because it is a direct translation, the meaning is the same! I know not all of Portugal was part of Lusitania, that's exactly why it is so ridiculous to say people from ex-Portuguese colonies are Lusitanic, because not even all Portuguese people are actually Lusitanic. About the wide meaning of the prefix "luso", if that information is correct, by all means, add it (with reliable sources), but split it into different articles. ThePortuguese ( talk) 13:33, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
First of all, you are replying to the wrong section. It seems like you didn't actually read what I wrote! I don't like repeating myself. Like I said, this word is simply not known in the English speaking world! The reason it exists it's because it is a direct translation of the Portuguese word. For that, it's more than obvious that English speaking people don't have a different meaning to it. You make comparisons that are not valid. The great majority of English speaking people (specially Americans) use the word Hispanic on a daily basis, and that's not the case with the word in question here, not at all, like I said so many times before! Most people don't even know the word exists; this word only exists in English as a direct translation from the Portuguese language! Its meaning its not different because of that: it's just a direct translation that's not even included in most dictionaries!
To call Brazil "Lusitanian America" is to deny the independence of Brazil as a country, because it's like saying Brazil's still is part of Portugal! Of course those words were used before the independence, as at the time, Brazil was a colony of Portugal. That's not the case now and you're fantasizing the words are applied interchangeably when they're not even known to the majority of the world! Besides, if that were true, how come both Portuguese and Brazilian dictionaries do not agree with that definition you're inventing? The words are not synonyms. Simple as that!
I don't like repeating myself, if you actually read what I wrote, you'll find an answer to the other questions...
And... obviously, you just don't read what I write because no, I did not change the introduction, it's just you who's replying to the wrong section... And it was not even I who started this section... ThePortuguese ( talk) 18:38, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
And I didn't even know what Sockpuppet was until just now. Are you trying to discredit me by saying that? ThePortuguese ( talk) 19:09, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
I have started a sockpuppet investigation of ThePortuguese and Bowlfisher. The users' edits here appear very similar to a contentious editor, Y26Z3, who was permanently banned from wikipedia for making contentious edits, personal threats, and legal threats. If you'd like to weigh in, please feel free to visit the investigation page: [2]
Goodsdrew ( talk) 15:18, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
Are you serious? Did you even read what I wrote? That guy is trying to discredit me! Unbelievable. ThePortuguese ( talk) 22:22, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
This looks like pre-modern, 18th or 19th Century scholarship to me and therefore very doubtful. There's no Celtic word tanus meaning "tribe" and there's no god named Lus either - note the compositional vowel has been removed, too, which is a giveaway of the mentality of the writers of those times who envisioned the Celts as grunting primitives with a monosyllabic language. I suggest this derivation is misleading and should be removed. Paul S ( talk) 14:26, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
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"Lusitanic" is not a word in any language. ( Y26Z3 ( talk) 06:27, 16 May 2012 (UTC))
I wouldn't dare to say "Lusitanic is not a word in any language ". I'm not sure, but I've seen it in a Provençal or other Occitan languages. I don't speak all languages of the world.
And just a reminder, English has not a regulating language body like French Academy, or the Royal Academy for Spanish Language. A word may exist (and indeed many does, like Sudo) without being listed in dictionaries. A published glossary compiled by a linguistic or ethnographer is scientifically valid for recording unlisted words.
I agree that "Lusitanic" is an original research in clear violation of Wikipedia policies. It certainly came out as parallel to Hispanic, and following the same logic, let's call the members of the Francophony "Gallic" and those living in the USA, "Gallic-American" (or perhaps "GaRlic-American"...)
-- Brighella11 ( talk) 11:49, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Here is an English source from 1771 that uses the word "Lusitanic": http://books.google.com/books/about/An_Anglo_Lusitanic_discourse.html?id=CIsV1JSJnMoC . It seems like the word "Lusitanic" actually has a long history in the English language. Goodsdrew ( talk) 21:49, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
The latest passage, which states,
should be included in the article. ( Y26Z3 ( talk) 19:00, 7 June 2012 (UTC))
No, that's not what that means at all, and each dictionary is done differently, and the ones you cited are certainly not the way you just described. Searching for a word and not finding it is not notable; simply stating over and over that it "passes WP:UNDUE" doesn't make this so. If you cannot find a source that explicitly and unambiguously says that lusitanic is not a word in a given dictionary, then it is undue for the article to state this; a website's internal search engine result is insufficient for this. This is the crux of why it was removed, and why it does not belong in the article. Unless this critical aspect is addressed you can respond all you'd like, you're not going to convince me otherwise. - Sudo Ghost 23:15, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
I also disagree with this passage. It implies that "Lusitanic" is not an English word, but we already have found an English language source from as far back as 1771 that uses it. There are hundreds of thousands of results from a google search of the word "Lusitanic." Clearly it is a real word. Goodsdrew ( talk) 20:12, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
References
The majority viewpoint is that "lusitanic" does not have enough citations to be recognized as a widely used word and may have usage limited to specific, isolated, or informal contexts. This is the majority viewpoint and it should be held in the article.
Thank you, ( Y26Z3 ( talk) 23:28, 7 June 2012 (UTC))
You've provided not a single source that directly supports anything, not one. What you have provided is WP:UNDUE and under no circumstances does a lack of something directly support its opposite. Now all of a sudden it's somehow racist? Aside from the fact that that makes no sense whatsoever, you're grasping at straws now and failing miserably. Unless you can demonstrate what you're saying, you're not going to convince me that there's some "majority viewpoint" that somehow doesn't have a single direct reliable source that can be shown. - Sudo Ghost 01:57, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
Y26Z3 contacted me, asking a couple of unrelated things at first. He then explained to me his argument that "luistanic" is libelous because it is a portmanteau of "lucifer" and "satan". This appears to be a conclusion which he and he alone has drawn, as it is clear that the article does not imply or openly state this contention whatsoever, and to argue that it does strikes me as extremely tenuous.
I would like to note that the websters-dictionary-online link Baseball Bugs put forward above appears to be out of the realm of consideration, because it quite clearly states underneath that it was "adapted by the editor from Wikipedia", from this page.
I agree with Someguy1221 that the solution to unverifiable material is not more unverifiable material - what should be indicative of the name of this article is not what dictionaries don't say, but what they do say. I am an English student with full access to several resources, including the OED, so I had my own investigation. I found the following:
LUSITANIA
— see portugal — Lu·si·ta·ni·an adjective or noun (
here)The prevalence of usage of a term is also relevant to its naming. Google Books can be used to demonstrate this, as is mentioned in article title policy.
...as can Google Scholar:
As a previously uninvolved party, I would suggest that, in light of the entries in several pretty authoritative dictionaries (none of which have any entry for "Lusitanic", and the 97% dominance of "Lusitanian" via both Google Books and Google Scholar, this article on the adjective pertaining to the culture of Lusitania should be moved to "Lusitanian". WilliamH ( talk) 22:42, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Y26Z3/Archive. Dougweller ( talk) 06:35, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
This page contains misleading and non-relevant information; and it doesn't allow me to remove it, because when I do it, minutes later it all comes back. The part "Portuguese speaking countries and regions in the world" has no relation whatsoever with this, because this word refers to Portuguese people (people from Portugal) and it has nothing to do with former colonies of the country, Portugal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThePortuguese ( talk • contribs) 21:35, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
That information is incorrect. It says at the beginning of the page itself: "When the modern day country of Portugal was created in the 12th century, it inherited the term, and thus, since then, Lusitanic has also meant related to Portugal, its people and its culture. When only referring to the Portuguese language, the word Lusophone should be used." Just like what LuzoGraal said is wrong, exactly because of this. "Lusophone" and "Lusitanic" are not the same thing. You can read the talk part entitled "comment" and you'll see they're saying this word is related to Portugal and its people, not ex-colonies. ThePortuguese ( talk) 22:08, 3 November 2012 (UTC)ThePortuguese I agree with the other users that said this page should re-direct to "Portuguese people". — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThePortuguese ( talk • contribs) 21:55, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
Like I said, "Lusophone" and "Lusitanic" are not the same thing. (the following is written in Portuguese...): lusitano (latim lusitanus, -a, -um) adj. 1. Relativo à Lusitânia. 2. Relativo a Portugal. = PORTUGUÊS s. m. 3. Natural ou habitante da Lusitânia. 4. Natural, habitante ou cidadão de Portugal. = PORTUGUÊS adj. s. m. 5. Diz-se de ou raça portuguesa de cavalos.
Translation: (Lusitanic/Lusitanian: 1. Relative to Lusitania. 2. Relative to Portugal = PORTUGUESE
3. Natural or inhabitant of Lusitania (which doesn't exist anymore) 4. Natural, inhabitant or citizen of Portugal = PORTUGUESE
5. A breed of horses.)
Source: http://www.priberam.pt/DLPO/default.aspx?pal=lusitano
lusófono
(luso- + -fono)
adj. s. m.
1. Que ou quem fala português.
adj.
2. Que tem o português como língua oficial ou dominante (ex.: país lusófono).
Sinónimo Geral: LUSOFALANTE
Lusophone: 1. One who is/speaks Portuguese. 2. Someone/something which official language is Portuguese.
http://www.priberam.pt/DLPO/default.aspx?pal=lus%C3%B3fono
Priberam is a very famous Portuguese dictionary. ThePortuguese ( talk) 22:17, 3 November 2012 (UTC) - ThePortuguese
Like others said, people don't even use this word that often! And it's not debatable because lusófono is a direct translation to Lusophone and lusitano is a direct translation to Lusitanic/Lusitanian. The English words had their origin on the Portuguese words and the meaning of those words is explained above. "And the question of Lusophone and Lusitanic is already mentioned in the introduction to the article." It is! It is contradicting what you're saying, explaining the differences between the two words!
ThePortuguese (
talk) 23:01, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
What you said doesn't make any sense and you're contradicting yourself! Tomorrow when I have the time, I'll elaborate more (on what is already very obvious...). As a Portuguese, you should know better! ThePortuguese ( talk) 23:37, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
Yes, LuzoGraal, you are contradicting. You said the words are synonyms and that's not true. Lusophones are the Portuguese and every individual whose first language is Portuguese. That's not the case with the word Lusitanic.
You (srushe) talk about proof, but the fact is that everything points to me being right: I already explained the difference between the two words with proof and it's also explained in the Wikipedia article itself when it says “When the modern day country of Portugal was created in the 12th century, it inherited the term, and thus, since then, Lusitanic has also meant related to Portugal, its people and its culture. When only referring to the Portuguese language, the word Lusophone should be used.". The article its in contradiction with itself; because what I just quoted is exactly the reason why the part about countries where people speak Portuguese is misleading and non-relevant information.
LuzoGraal talks about the supposed many times where the words are used interchangeably, and yet provides no sources or documentation (naturally, because those don't exist since that's just not true).
You had said to me "Please discuss your extensive deletions on the talk page. Ideally explain why you feel they're justified, rather than simply deleting vast swathes of well-sourced content.". The fact that the content is "well-sourced" doesn't mean it's related to the topic in question. I could go on and on adding well-sourced documented information about cats on a page about chairs! What's the point on keep adding information to an article that's not related to it? The difference is that you don't know about this terms because people outside of Portugal rarely use them, but I'm telling you as a well educated Portuguese person the differences! And I've provided the proof you wanted. And you can read in this talk page the “comment” section and see people saying Lusitanic refers to people from Portugal. But I'll keep adding: the origin of this word comes from an ancient tribe that inhabited most of Portugal and a little part of Spain. The name of that tribe was the Lusitanians. They were said to be very brave, so when Luís Vaz de Camões wrote “The Lusiads”, he used their name to refer to the Portuguese people as a whole. On the Wikipedia article entitled “Os Lusíadas”, it reads “key concepts: the heroes: The heroes of the epic are the Lusiads (Lusíadas), the sons of Lusus or in other words, the Portuguese.” As you can see, the Portuguese! This series of poems was made with the intention of glorifying the Portuguese people for the discoveries of new lands and it talks about the Lusos/Lusitanians/Lusitanics/Portuguese. Those words became interchangeable because of that poem (it's one of our great classics). Nowadays, when referring to people of Portuguese origin born in another country, the suffix used is “Luso” because of that. Luso means Portuguese! Examples: Luso-American, Luso-Brazilian (can you see the distinction?). If calling Brazilians Lusos/Lusitanians/Lusitanic were right, it wouldn't make any sense to call a Brazilian person of Portuguese origin “Luso-Brazilian”, because that would be a repetition. But the obvious is that Luso means Portuguese, so that term is used. Here: http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luso-brasileiros (the thing is, many of the sources are written in Portuguese, exactly because that word is not well known in the English language; but you can see without a translation that what's written on that page is “Luso-Brazilian”). Here, another source where the word is used, in English: https://www.gc.cuny.edu/Page-Elements/Academics-Research-Centers-Initiatives/Doctoral-Programs/Hispanic
You've got the definition of the words from the Portuguese dictionary “Priberam”, and now I'll add some more: Source: English Collins Dictionary - English Definition & Thesaurus “Lusitanian”: 1. Chiefly poetic: of or relating to Lusitania or Portugal 2. (Biology) denoting flora or fauna characteristically found only in the warm, moist, west-facing coastal regions of Portugal, Spain, France, and the west and southwest coasts of Great Britain and Ireland
Luso- : combining form: indicating Portugal or Portuguese (from Portuguese lusitano, from Latin, from Lusitania)
(this dictionary doesn't recognize “Lusitanic”)
Source: http://www.audioenglish.net/dictionary/lusitanian.htm
• LUSITANIAN (adjective) The adjective LUSITANIAN has 2 senses: 1. of or relating to or characteristic of Portugal or the people of Portugal 2. of or relating to or characteristic of the region of Lusitania or its people or language Familiarity information: LUSITANIAN used as an adjective is rare.
Dictionary entry details
• LUSITANIAN (adjective)
Sense 1
Meaning: Of or relating to or characteristic of Portugal or the people of Portugal Classified under: Relational adjectives (pertainyms) Synonyms: Lusitanian; Portuguese Context example: Portuguese wines
Sense 2
Meaning: Of or relating to or characteristic of the region of Lusitania or its people or language Classified under: Relational adjectives (pertainyms) Pertainym: Lusitania (ancient region and Roman province on the Iberian Peninsula; corresponds roughly to modern Portugal and parts of Spain)
As you can see here, when it talks about language, it talks about Lusitanian's ancient language, which was not Portuguese. The dictionaries don't even have a definition of “Lusitanic” (but Lusitanian is interchangeable with this word, just like Luso).
Source: http://www.infopedia.pt/pesquisa.jsp?qsFiltro=0&qsExpr=lusitano – this one is also a very popular Portuguese dictionary lusitano adjectivo 1. relativo ou pertencente aos Lusitanos (antigo povo pré-romano, estabelecido entre o Tejo e o Douro e as províncias espanholas de Cáceres e Badajoz); (Lusitan/Lusitanian – relative or belonging to the Lusitans (ancient pre-Roman peoples (then it says the location where they used to live)) 2. relativo ou pertencente à Lusitânia (antiga província romana) (relative or belonging to Lusitania (ancient pre-Roman province) 3. relativo ou pertencente a Portugal; português (relative or belonging to Portugal, Portuguese) nome masculino 1. membro dos Lusitanos (masculine name; a member of the Lusitans) 2. natural ou habitante da Lusitânia (natural or inhabitant of Lusitania) 3. natural ou habitante de Portugal; português (natural or inhabitant of Portugal, Portuguese) adjectivo e nome masculino designativo de ou raça de cavalos nascidos e criados em Portugal (adjective and masculine name; a breed of horses born and raised in Portugal) (Do latim lusitānu-, «idem»)
luso
adjectivo e nome masculino
⇒ lusitano
(Do latim Lusu-, «idem»)
(by writting “luso” it redirects to “lusitano” (lusitanian), meaning it's the same thing)
lusitânico adjectivo e nome masculino ⇒ lusitano (Do latim lusitanĭcu-, «idem»)
(by writting “lusitanic” it redirects to “lusitano” (lusitanian), meaning it's the same thing; just like it happened when I wrote “luso”)
Lusófono (lusophone)
adjectivo
1.
que fala português (who speaks Portuguese)
2.
diz-se do país ou do povo cuja língua materna ou língua oficial é o português (people or country whose official language is Portuguese)
nome masculino (masculine name)
aquele que fala português (he who speaks Portuguese)
(De luso-+-fono)
And now a Brazilian dictionary: Source: www.dicio.com.br Significado de Luso adj. e s.m. Da Lusitânia, de Portugal; lusitano. Sinônimos de Luso Sinônimo de luso: lusitano e português
(Meaning of “luso”: from Lusitania, from Portugal, Lusitanian. Synomyms of Luso: Lusitanian and Portuguese)
Significado de Lusitânico adj. O mesmo que lusitano.
(meaning of Lusitanic: the same as Lusitanian)
Significado de Lusitano
adj.
Relativo à Lusitânia ou aos seus habitantes.
Relativo a Portugal ou aos Portugueses. M. Habitante da Lusitânia. (Lat. lusitanus)
(meaning of Lusitanian: relative to Lusitania or its inhabitants; relative to Portugal or the Portuguese people; inhabitant of Lusitania)
(this one doesn't have a definition of Lusophone, although if you know Portuguese you can read by the examples where the word is used that this word is related to the Portuguese language, unlike the others that are only related to the Portuguese people, thus, excluding Brazilians and people from the ex-colonies)
One more example from a Brazilian dictionary: Source: http://michaelis.uol.com.br/moderno/portugues/index.php?lingua=portugues-portugues&palavra=lus%F3fono
lusófono lu.só.fo.no adj+sm (luso2+fono) 1 Diz-se do, ou o indivíduo que fala português. 2 Diz-se do, ou o indivíduo ou povo que, não tendo o português como seu vernáculo, fala-o por cultura ou por adoção como língua franca, tal como acontece em regiões africanas e asiáticas que sofreram influência dos antigos colonos portugueses. Var: lusófone.
(lusophone: 1 It's say of, or the individual that speaks Portuguese. 2. It's said of the individual that speaks Portuguese as official language, even if it's not the native one, like in some African and Asian regions. Variation: lusófone (in English, it would be the same thing: Lusophone))
lusitano lu.si.ta.no1 adj (lat lusitanu) 1 Que diz respeito à Lusitânia ou aos seus habitantes. 2 Que se refere a Portugal ou aos portugueses; lusitânico. sm 1 Habitante ou natural da Lusitânia. 2 Português. Var: luso. (Lusitanian: 1. That's relative to Lusitania or its inhabitants. 2. That refers to Portugal or the Portuguese people, Lusitanic. Sm 1. Inhabitant or natural of Lusitania. 2. Portuguese. Variant: Luso) Here, see? The three words used as synonyms. Just like in the other reliable sources that I used. Michaelis is a very well known Brazilian dictionary.
As you can see, one thing is Luso/Lusitanian/Lusitanic: related with the ancient tribe and associated with the Portuguese people and a different thing is Lusophone, associated with the countries/peoples whose official language is Portuguese. Being the title of the article in question “Lusitanic”, it doesn't make any sense to talk about Portugal's ex-colonies because the people who live there are not Portuguese and thus, are not related to this article (the majority of the people of those countries is not Portuguese, and the one's of Portuguese ancestry are called Luso-Brazilians (for example)). Like I said, the fact that there's such a word as “Luso-Brazilian” says it all! Take “Luso-Angolan” as another example: http://www.ela.uevora.pt/ (reliable source, that's the website of the University of Évora, you can read “Luso-Angolano” (Angola was a Portuguese colony as well)).
From what I said, hopefully you can see the ridiculous it is, that on a page entitled “Lusitanics” it talks about Portugal's ex-colonies. It's misleading information and it's wrong. If someone finds out about the word and looks it up, the person who finds this information can't even make up their mind because first it says (correctly) the distinction between the words Lusitanic and Lusophone, and then it talks about Lusophone countries in a page entitled Lusitanic. The page it's in contradiction with itself!
What LuzoGraal said about this being the English language Wikipedia doesn't make any sense, simply because those words' origin are Portuguese. If they didn't exist in Portuguese, they wouldn't exist in English, so their meaning is the same as in Portuguese because they are simply direct translations. And of course English speaking people didn't create their own meaning to this words because the great majority doesn't even know they exist!
Further, you also don't let me edit the part on the article “Lusitanians” that also has incorrect information, and it was just 1 phrase, so what's your excuse? That information is wrong and misleading and you can't even say it was a major edit. Besides, aren't you claiming for sources? I've got mine, what's their source? None! A reliable source doesn't existing to support what they say because it's simply not true so it's impossible to have a reliable source on that!
It's not a matter of opinion what I'm saying; it's the truth so delete what I had deleted! ThePortuguese ( talk) 12:24, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
Bear in mind that the Wikipedia in English is for the current word usage and not the original meanings in Portuguese, Latin, French, Kikongo or whatsoever.
There should be a disambiguation page about the following:
Brighella11 ( talk) 13:24, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia is about the past and the present meanings, though, not just the present... I said all of that to make my point more clear. Like I said before, since this word originated in the Portuguese language and it's only present in the English language because it is a direct translation, the meaning is the same! I know not all of Portugal was part of Lusitania, that's exactly why it is so ridiculous to say people from ex-Portuguese colonies are Lusitanic, because not even all Portuguese people are actually Lusitanic. About the wide meaning of the prefix "luso", if that information is correct, by all means, add it (with reliable sources), but split it into different articles. ThePortuguese ( talk) 13:33, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
First of all, you are replying to the wrong section. It seems like you didn't actually read what I wrote! I don't like repeating myself. Like I said, this word is simply not known in the English speaking world! The reason it exists it's because it is a direct translation of the Portuguese word. For that, it's more than obvious that English speaking people don't have a different meaning to it. You make comparisons that are not valid. The great majority of English speaking people (specially Americans) use the word Hispanic on a daily basis, and that's not the case with the word in question here, not at all, like I said so many times before! Most people don't even know the word exists; this word only exists in English as a direct translation from the Portuguese language! Its meaning its not different because of that: it's just a direct translation that's not even included in most dictionaries!
To call Brazil "Lusitanian America" is to deny the independence of Brazil as a country, because it's like saying Brazil's still is part of Portugal! Of course those words were used before the independence, as at the time, Brazil was a colony of Portugal. That's not the case now and you're fantasizing the words are applied interchangeably when they're not even known to the majority of the world! Besides, if that were true, how come both Portuguese and Brazilian dictionaries do not agree with that definition you're inventing? The words are not synonyms. Simple as that!
I don't like repeating myself, if you actually read what I wrote, you'll find an answer to the other questions...
And... obviously, you just don't read what I write because no, I did not change the introduction, it's just you who's replying to the wrong section... And it was not even I who started this section... ThePortuguese ( talk) 18:38, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
And I didn't even know what Sockpuppet was until just now. Are you trying to discredit me by saying that? ThePortuguese ( talk) 19:09, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
I have started a sockpuppet investigation of ThePortuguese and Bowlfisher. The users' edits here appear very similar to a contentious editor, Y26Z3, who was permanently banned from wikipedia for making contentious edits, personal threats, and legal threats. If you'd like to weigh in, please feel free to visit the investigation page: [2]
Goodsdrew ( talk) 15:18, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
Are you serious? Did you even read what I wrote? That guy is trying to discredit me! Unbelievable. ThePortuguese ( talk) 22:22, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
This looks like pre-modern, 18th or 19th Century scholarship to me and therefore very doubtful. There's no Celtic word tanus meaning "tribe" and there's no god named Lus either - note the compositional vowel has been removed, too, which is a giveaway of the mentality of the writers of those times who envisioned the Celts as grunting primitives with a monosyllabic language. I suggest this derivation is misleading and should be removed. Paul S ( talk) 14:26, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
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