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Right now, the passage in question is original research. It’s also POV, e.g.: “thorough analysis”, “more often than not”, “can not be traced with certainty.” Heinegg and Demarce are well-respected and well-published genealogists. This passage does not even come close to meeting WP standards of verifiability. Verklempt 20:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I do not question the genealogical evidence presented by Demarce and Heinegg, it is their personalized interpretations of their research that they so carelessly insert all throughout the factual information that I question. This particular work is riddled with unsubstantiated heavily personalized and biased misleading statements that if not read under close scrutiny can easily be misconstrued to be facts themselves. Their credentials will not suffice as evidence that everything they say is true, in fact under a thorough critique of their work it will be seen that a large portion of what they present is pure speculation!
Although they have proven that some families (roughly a third) among Robeson County Indians at least “IN PART” originated from Virginia, for a vast majority such claims are pure “UNPROVEN SPECULATION.” Take the Locklear family (the biggest Indian family in Robeson County to date) for example. In Heinegg and Demarce’s research they trace all the Robeson County Locklears back to a Robert Locklear who owned land on the Roanoke River in the part of Edgecombe County that would later become Halifax County North Carolina. They assumed that he “MAY” be descended from a Frenchman by the name of Jacob Lockeleer in Virginia, but the verifiable trail for this family ends at Robert; yet Heinegg and Demarce blatantly state, in regards to Mary Normant claiming that a Betty Locklear was a half breed Tuscarora, that “it is more likely that they (the ancestors of the Locklears in Robeson) were already a mixture of African, European, and perhaps Native American when they came to North Carolina.” As in “THEY CAN NOT PROVE THAT THIS FAMILY CAME FROM VIRGINIA YET THEY STATE THAT THEY DID!”
This is “BY FAR” not the only time that such speculative assumptions have been presented as fact here, Heinegg and Demarce’s credentials are worthless! My statements were not original research; all I did was offer an accurate critique of well published blindly accepted propagandized POV garbage! Bobby Hurt 03:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps you are correct to a certain extent; after all I am new to WP. I will definitely make an effort in the future to make sure that what edits I make properly reflect the actual (as in not your personalized interpretations of them) WP standards. On the same note, it appears that you have been here for a long time and should therefore be very familiar with the policies in place here. Therefore, you should have known better (and probably did) than to insert so many of your personal beliefs into this article! For example:
1.)"families with the same surnames as Lumbees"--without checking to see if any of the individuals mentioned could actually be tied to Robeson Indians, such a statement was completely uncalled for as well as inaccurate, 2.) Inferring that it is impossible for there to be a large portion of Indian blood represented within Robeson County Indians when it most definitely is. Such a statement is your own “UNPROVEN PERSONAL POINT OF VIEW, that absolutely does not belong in a respectable article,” 3.) “in which they described non-white residents” of Robeson as being a free colored population that migrated originally from the districts round-about the Roanoke and Neuse Rivers--The only “FREE-colored” people who came to Robeson County were Lumbee ancestors, there were other “non-whites” who were slaves or slaves that had been set free, but they were not free-colored when they got here. Your contribution is a completely inaccurate unnecessary personalized statement that has no business being on a professionally written public page, and 4.) “By 1802, the northern Tuscarora leaders felt that the emigration was complete, and that while some of their relatives had stayed behind, those people had intermarried with other races and ethnicities and were no longer tribal members.”--and this statement can be referenced how? The actual historic record indicates that there are roughly at least 1000 (and this is extremely conservative estimate) unaccounted for Tuscarora.
I am also curious to know how it is a violation to expose WP readers to such common knowledge as was illustrated by Charles F Pierce (Supervisor of Indian Schools for the Department of Interior) in 1912 when he stated (in a public federal government document) that “One would readily class a large majority of [the Lumbee] as being at least three-fourths Indian?” Who are you to dictate that Heinegg and Demarce’s highly opinionated work is the only thing that carries any weight? There is a lot of evidence that contradicts what Heinegg and Demarce theorize (some of it being from within their own heavily censored highly incomplete twisted propagandized research); therefore, what they claim is not a proven "FACT." You are entitled to believe what this one source claims if you wish (and I will admit that just like most other things, there is “SOME” truth to what they say), but you have no right to present it as being undisputable fact within this article (because their claims are heavily disputed).
From reading over your earlier replies on this talk page it is easy to see that you have continuously attempted to break down, scrutinize, and completely disregard and leave out every piece of evidence (a majority of which is located in verifiable sources) showing any Indian heritage within Robeson County; yet you won’t allow the same scrutiny to fall upon the untouchable Heinegg and Demarce work to which you so tightly cling. Your actions are extremely hypocritical Sir and you have no right to sensor a public resource in such a personalized way (i.e. POV)! The narrow minded semantic bigotry you have portrayed thus far on this talk page (and other places) is ridiculous! It is ludicrous that those editors above you have allowed you to play God on this website for as long as they have!
FYI: If you would have actually read the work that you so blindly put your faith in you would have know that according to “HEINEGG and DEMARCE”, Isaac Hammond the second (whose wife upon his death in 1822 filed a pension in 1849 stating that both his parents were Mulattoes or Mustees having no African blood in them) was the son of an Isaac Hammond, brother of Ann Hammond who was acknowledged in Bertie County court in February 1739 that she had two bastard children, race not mentioned, while indentured to John Pratt, the keeper of the ferry across the Roanoke River at Gideon Gibson’s landing
“HEINEGG and DEMARCE” also state that this same Ann Hammond (who would essentially also be a Mullato or Mustees with no African blood in her as well) was also the mother of John and Horatio Hammond (their father is unknown) who moved to Robeson County from Bertie County (John in 1768 and Horatio in 1784) and produced 16 children, founding the entire Hammonds family in Robeson County.
I appeal to the legitimate editors on this site to recognize the covert discrimination (i.e. Unequal and harmful treatment that is hidden, purposeful, and often maliciously motivated and stems from conscious attempts to ensure failure) that this anonymous individual is inflicting on your site, and put an end to it! Bobby Hurt 12:35, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
LOL! You can’t be serious! Actually my friend I have spent over 300 hours analyzing and reading over the research they did in reference to Robeson County families (I had a copy of it sitting in front of me when I wrote the information above). Their work can be easily accessed on the net at the site Heinegg and Demarce so ingeniously (they are so good at what they do) labeled (www.freeafricanamericans.com) if you should ever care to check over anything I just said. Let me remind you of some things that “YOU” stated in the discussions above:
1.) However, there is basically no surviving evidence of Indian identity among the Lumbee ancestors prior to 1885. This makes it a total leap of faith to assume that they had one. Verklempt 02:00, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
2.) “Do you have any evidence of problems with DeMarce's published research? I've never seen anyone demonstrate any serous errors or bias in her work. Or do you just dislike that she documents the Lumbee's African side of their ancestry?Verklempt 19:26, 8 October 2006 (UTC) “
3.) You still haven't specified your disagreement with DeMarce's research. I'm sensing a vague whiff of conspiracy theory about her having worked for the feds, but nothing concrete. I would also point out that your resort to ad hominem is becoming habitual, and that's quite revealing.Verklempt 00:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
It would appear that “YOU” in fact initiated this debate my friend! Isn’t “debate and discussion” what this “TALK PAGE” is here for? You certainly seemed to think so in the past! Why the sudden change of heart now? You were all about spurting off at the mouth and telling people who they are and aren’t earlier, yet you suddenly want the discussion to end when one of them calls your bluff! Is it just me or is anyone else getting a vague whiff of the hypocrisy taking place here? Your actions are becoming so habitual and that’s quite revealing! Bobby Hurt 12:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Could someone vet the changes and additions added to the article today? The info looks mostly good, but it looks like the citations are screwed up.-- Cúchullain t/ c 05:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The page is now protected, effectively forcing a truce in the edit war. I'd like to see us have a civil, reasoned discussion about the disputed material. Who wants to start? Henrymrx ( talk) 14:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Good idea Henrymrx, calming down the edit wars. I think such a contentious subject as this one would warrant a stepping back and taking a deep breath from everyone involved!
To Verklempt: What do you mean by "African?" There is plenty of evidence that Lumbee have ancestry from Moors/Turks/others from that area of the world. For example, Heather Locklear's middle name is Deen, an Arabic word essentially meaning "way of life," albeit far more encompassing. As with most people in this country, USAmerica, you probably mean SSWestAfrican. I believe there is both "Moorish" and SSWAfrican as well. Please do not try and find Negroid ancestry in everything, that is one reason why established tribes are kicking out Freedmen. I think that it is a poor/cruel move on their part, but when you have scum such as Outkast, five percenters by the way, and their mockery of Indians for the delight of others, who can blame the tribes for kicking the Freedmen out? Blacks move everywhere and then claim they started something they had no part of in the beginning. I have all kinds of ancestry in me, and I have many distant cousins passing as black because they have dark(er) skin. If you check the names in Melungeon lists for example, you will find many surnames that are also common among those in that very area of those that migrate to cities and pass as full black. Williams is one, there are many of them in the Carolinas. I think the freedmen ought to stay in the tribes, perhaps if the Union Army hadn't have pulled out of the South too early and abandoned Reconstructiom turning the South over to the "Redeemers," then we wouldn't be in this mess now. They did, and we are still paying for it. I think the tribes ought to tell the Feds to screw off regarding quantum and let the freedmen stay, but that's just me. Yes, the gaming money is a driving factor, although the claiming of everything with some black influence as black is as well.
Question to anyone: Above, the Holland Land Company was mentioned. Is there any connection with Holland Island in the Chesapeake Bay? My GGF William T. Bennett dissembled houses there and moved them to Cambridge Maryland, because of the sinking of the island of course. He pretty much built up the entire West End of town there. Interestingly enough, I have some letters from the Holland Island Preservation Society run by a Mr. White who had ancestors on the island as well. I also have relatives by that name whom I visited many years ago in what is now North Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. Mr. White was in coorespondence with both my mother and her mother, both deceased. The "Day" in my name comes from my father's father, who interestingly enough had ancestors in NC. Interestingly enough, my father's mother was a Mitchell. Enough of me for now, perhaps I can jumpstart this page.
I don't think this page is possible without personal anecdotes, especially since the topic is still in its growth stages. JBDay ( talk) 06:26, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Was there any documentation as to the criteria the committee used to determine what children were eligible for the school(s) established for Indians in NC? Did they use family genealogies?-- Parkwells ( talk) 00:00, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
But? If the people had an oral history in 1886 as being Indian (or mostly Indian) spanning back for generations, wouldn't that mean that.............could it be.............perhaps maybe....... folks knew that they were Indian despite the fact that "OTHER PEOPLE" labeled them otherwise? Bobby Hurt ( talk) 00:45, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
An editor has added a statement in the lead/lede about potential impact of recognition. This is not really covered by the article, and may deserve a separate article. This one is about the Lumbee group itself.-- Parkwells ( talk) 20:06, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Please stop adding material about escaped slaves. That is not the main point - the point is that working class white women and African men had relationships and children together. Heinegg's point and documentation is not about mostly escaped slaves. It is that in the early days of VA, white women, servants or free, chose African men as partners. Sometimes they were indentured servants who became free, as did Europeans; sometimes they were slave. The children were free because the mothers were free, and they were African Americans or people of color free in colonial VA.-- Parkwells ( talk) 21:19, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
http://ncmuseumofhistory.org/workshops/civilrights1/oral_pol.html David F Lowry ( talk) 04:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Please stop changing this to something that Heinegg did not state. If an editor has another source for "skeptics about Native American origins, use that". Heinegg does not say he was skeptical; he simply lays out the documentation. He did not write that Lumbee were chiefly of African ancestry; rather he pointedly stated that 80 percent of cthe free people of color in NC in censuses from 1790-1810 (which would have included Lumbee ancestors) were descended from African Americans (mixed-race) free in VA during the colonial period. Most of those families were started from the children of relationships of white women with African or African American men, and their multiracial children. Many of these families moved together and settled in groups, creating frontier communities in VA and NC, along with European migrants/neighbors.-- Parkwells ( talk) 02:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
If this is true then certain folks need to stop saying that Heinegg theorized that "LUMBEES/TUSCARORAS" come from these mixed race unions in this article, because to do so is false (or POV). So unless someone can cite exactly where Heinegg says this (as in specifically states that Lumbee/Tuscarora in Robeson are primarily of African and European origin from Virginia); I move that his work be completely removed as a source from this page.
Nevermind how certain editors might interpret his research to read (after all that would be original research wouldn't it; which is definately something Wikipedia doesn't endorse right?) Bobby Hurt ( talk) 20:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Before I comment further I would appreciate it if you (Parkwells) could give me a direct strait forward answer to the following question: Did Heinegg or did he not write that the Lumbee ancestors were chiefly of African American (or mixed European and African American) ancestry? (I'd have asked Verklempt as well but he has allready given a strait forward definitive answer, what's your position?) Bobby Hurt ( talk) 06:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
But it is about your opinion here (in this discussion that we are having). In your (Parkwells) first statement you said that Heinegg did not write that Lumbees are chiefly of African ancestry. Yet in the same discussion your arguing that he listed most (as 24 and definately 35 families would have been most) Lumbee families in the 1760-1800 census as being descended from African Americans. I'm confused here, because your statements from one response to the next do not paint the same picture, hence the reason why I asked you that question (just fishing for a strait forward position, it's much easier to address that way, judging by your response it appears that a strait forward discussion is not what you looking for though). Personally I am well aware (and was well aware before I asked you that question) of the fact that Heinegg specifically targets Robco people in his work (and while we're on the subject I would like to thank Verklempt for helping to point this out for me, I knew youd pop up if somebody tried to actually remove your presious Heinegg crap, well thanks anyway!).
My point being that he does specifically try to target and discredit (he even repeatedly goes out of his way to do so) the fact that Robeson county people are primarily of Indian origin despite the fact that his work is "SUPPOSED" to (as you are trying to portray it) be a non-biased overview of free African Americans in general with no particular agenda in mind. Bottom line: nobody is changing this to something that Heinegg did not state, people are just exposing him for what he was really trying to do! Bobby Hurt ( talk) 00:23, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Personally (and I'm going off of what he says on his website here, which I would assume is the same as in his book) I do not agree with the following statement being placed in this article: "In his book he identified 35 families by name listed on the 1768-1770 tax lists for Bladen County, from which Robeson County was formed. Except for Tom Britt, who was listed as Indian, all the others were listed as mulatto. Similarly, Heinegg listed 24 "other free" families by name in Robeson County from the 1790-1800 censuses. In his book he had traced each back to persons referred to as "Negro" or "mulatto" in Virginia or North Carolina"
To continue further with what Verklempt mentioned about the Lowrie page; Heinegg blatantly argues against the fact that the Lowries were descendants from a white man who married a half breed Tuscarora arguing that it is impossible because no records were found to indicate this (he also attacked the fact that Kerseys, Cumbos and Locklears were as well despite the fact that that had nothing to do with the Lowrie history itself, he went out of his way here and stepped beyond the bounds of unbiased presentation). The problem here is that he also has no documentation to prove otherwise, therefore making Mary Norments "the Lowrie history" the only existing evidence found on this family's geneology. I don't understand how the statement "Heinegg traced EACH back to persons refered to as Negro or Mulatto in NC or VA" can properly be used here.
It is also true that Heinegg can't trace the Jones family, the Dial family, the Brooks family, the woods family, the Clark family, the Collins family, the Cooper family, the Cox family, the Deese family, the Demery family, the Bullard family, the Freeman family, the Fuller family, the Grooms family, the Harden family, the Leviner family, the maynor family etc...(and the list goes on) at all past Robeson. So again; how saying he traced "EACH" is appropriate; I don't know?
It is also true that for a vast majority of families Heinegg states that said individual "MAY" have been the child of other said individual. In some cases he doesn't even say "May" he just lists a "Free Negro" from Virginia and then starts off talking about individuals in NC as being descended from that person without providing any documentation to verify such misleading assumptions. You will find this type of thing in the Hammonds family section, the Bell family section, the Locklear family section, the Revels family section, the Sweat family section,the Wilkins family section, the Wynn family section, the Scott family section, the Chavis family section, the Cumbo family section, the Goins family section, the Carter family section, etc.....and the list goes on.
If Heinegg wasn't blatantly trying to discredit Robeson County Indian claims he most definately conducted his research and presented it in a most inaccurate, careless, and inconsistant way.
Verklemp? Where can I find where Heinegg specifically mentions Lumbees in his introduction on his website? I have the Lowrie section as I printed it out about 2 years ago (along with 37 other family trees). I am aware that he blatantly attack's a Tuscarora identity in that section (without documentable basis) but I still can't find the intro you speak of, Please give a specific reference.
As I said I printed out 38 names associated with Robeson in Heineggs work, don't you think it say's something that I just put 29 of them into question? 17 of which (and some of the others I listed would also fall into this category as well under thorough critique, as I just skimmed over it) he can't even trace at all? Things are not nearly as concise as you people are "INTERPRETING (POV)" his work to be and the current article as it is now written must be changed to reflect accurate facts!
The Indian folks in Robeson (both Lumbee and Tuscarora) have a very painful history in the state of North Carolina and such careless one-sided presentation of facts as there are within this current article are most damaging and insulting to our people. Personally I will not argue to take Heineggs work out, but I will demand that it be presented accurately and fairly and not blown out of proportion in the way that it is being presented at this time! If this article is ever going to get to the point of being completely neutral and unbiased then it is essential that the Indian history of North Carolina be addressed in proper context here. The designation of Mullatoe or other free does not make a person part black in the colonial Carolinas. It does insinuate that they could have been, but it doesn not neccessarily mean that they were. In my analysis of Heineggs research I have found only one example of a Lumbee ancestor specifically stating that they were black, yet I have found numerouse examples where they stated that they weren't.
It must farther be understood that detribalized Indains in NC as a whole "were not" labeled as Indian. There is verifiable evidence that there were thousands of American Indian people residing in the Carolinas off of Indian land, yet you only find individuals here and there being regarded as Indian in source documents. Thus it is only proper to assume that the vast majority of the Native population in this region were not labeled properly. This is illustrated (as I mentioned in a previous discussion) by the fact that it is know that roughly a 100 Tuscaroras remained on the Indian Woods reservation when it was disbanded and yet "NOT ONE" Indian was listed there in source documents once that reservation was "NO LONGER LEGAL INDIAN LAND, but there were plenty of Mullatoes and other frees listed there indicating that that is what non-reserved Indians would have legally been classed as in that region (which is the same region that a vast majority of Lumbee ancestors came from)!"
Documented history indicates that there were well over 1000 non-reservated Tuscaroras living in northeaster North Carolina before that reservation was disbanded. Taking into to consideration that they would have been classed as mullatoe or other free, taking into consideration that the Lumbee ancestors who lived there (at the same time these Tuscaroras would have been there) were generally classed as Mullatoe or other free, coupled with the fact that the original affiliation handed down by Lumbee ancestors in Robeson was Tuscarora, coupled with the fact that numerous experts acknowledged repeatedly that Robco Indians "Maintained their race integrity (i.e. were pretty much indian at their core) with a small admixture with the colonial races and an even smaller admixture with other races," were considered to be mostly of Indian origin with the Negro blood "NOT" predominating (but there, and I have never denied this), were described as "there being a large majority who posses 3/4 or more Indian blood" etc... This article "MUST" be changed to reflect this "VERIFIABLE and easily CITABLE" other side of this story in order to present a "NEUTRAL/ACCURATE" wikipedia page to the readers!
Parwells; as of yet I am not sure if you are just presenting the facts as you see them or if you may have other motives here. However I will give you the benefit of the doubt and appologize for coming off as hostile as I do. You must understand that this article is about me and my family and is therefor "VERY" personal for me! I love my people and I am proud of our heritage and legacy and I do not and will not ever take litely any sort of bigotry, undermining, or any other sort of blatant attack on my people heritage and legacy!
So lets all get real here, we can acknowledge that many Lumbees have African ancestry without trying to go beyond the realm of provability by presenting certain un-verifiable opinions (POV)arguing that they aren't largely of Indian ancestry as fact.
Fairness and neutrality is all I (and my kinsmen) am asking for here! Is that to much to ask? Bobby Hurt ( talk) 20:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Which particular claim are you specifically intirested in (as there are different sources for different things, some of which have allready been provided on this talk page)? I'd be happy to answer your question but you need to be more specific. Also; as an act of good faith I'd appreciate it if you could return the courtesy and point me to where Heinegg specifically mentions Lumbees in his introduction on his website (I've been looking and I can't find it)? Bobby Hurt ( talk) 01:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
The "Introduction" is really a long overview and summary of his findings about 400 documented families, starting with five or six major findings - among them that he found no nuclear families of Indians in early records, and much evidence that free Indians joined free African American communities/settlements and married African Americans. He also noted his findings that most African Americans who were free in colonial VA were descended from white women (whom he later shows he was able to identify by name in colonial records) and African/African American men. Later he noted that a few families, among them Collins originating in SC, descended from a white planter father and enslaved mother.
He describes the migration patterns out of VA to NC and SC (and elsewhere) and includes history of early colonial society. He notes the areas where free African Americans tended to settle. There are several major sections in this part that are in bold.
While this article is about people known as Lumbees, some of the issues that affected them affected all all free people of color in NC, so editors should refrain from altering text dealing with historic issues to try to reframe all "free Negroes" or "free people of color", as they were referred to in some historic texts, as ancestral Lumbees. One person changed material having to do with the disfranchisement of free people of color by the 1835 constitutional amendment. That amendment affected all free people of color in NC, not just some ancestors of Lumbee families. All free people of color were not ancestral Lumbees.-- Parkwells ( talk) 18:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC)-- Parkwells ( talk) 19:14, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
The Lumbee are a people claimed to be native to North America and descending from the Cheraw and related Siouan-speaking tribes of Native Americans originally inhabiting the coastal regions of the state of North Carolina.
In 1885 the State of North Carolina recognized the Lumbee as American Indians.as the opening for the lead. It's the most accurate while not being disparaging to the people who are the subject of the page. Jas392 ( talk) 20:23, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
The Lumbee are an Indian tribe in North America.This part is also problematic:
In 1885 the State of North Carolina recognized the Lumbee as American Indians.Actually, NC recognized the Croatans, not the Lumbees. Verklempt ( talk) 21:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
The article can fairly state that congressional REPORTS have concluded that the Lumbee are a distinct, viable Indian community descended from Siouan speaking tribes, principally the Cheraw.Cite: Senate Report 108-213 (11/25/2003) (2) Ditto about the fair statement. But I will concede that the article should also fairly state and cite your preference for pointing out the controversy. (3) Ditto about the fair statement. I'm guessing that you're referring to the Tuscis? This article is not about the Indians of Robeson County. It's about the Lumbee. So, why can't the Lumbee be a tribe? Afterall, they are recognized by the State of North Carolina as the "Lumbee Tribe of North Carolina." With all do respect (I do appreciate your help in parsing this out), the assertion that the Lumbee are not a tribe is really just a distraction. Jas392 ( talk) 16:34, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
If the Loweries were fighting against Reconstruction government from 1868-1872, they were fighting Republicans not Democrats, right? This section states the governor asked for Federal troops for help. I think the Democrats did not regain power in the state until later but have to check some other sources.-- Parkwells ( talk) 19:41, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Among the additions on Heinegg's website (wwww.freeafricanamericans.com) is one headed "Colonial Tax Lists, Census and Court Records for DE, MD, NC, SC, TN and VA." Under this is a section "Robeson Co. Family Origins, Tax List". The first page is a summary of the origin of surnames that later appeared in Robeson Co among ancestors of Lumbee; a number were of slaves freed early in colonial times. Other items are transcriptions of tax lists. There are also transcriptions of many court and census records. This is for readers' information.-- Parkwells ( talk) 20:25, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
The lead is hideously long - please shorten it. — Mike. lifeguard | @en.wb 00:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Someone changed the Lumbee population from 30,000 to 53,000 in the Infobox. There is no source for the number.-- Parkwells ( talk) 12:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
This does not reflect the whole article and controversy about origins, but mostly addresses only the fight for political recognition, and most recent claims of the tribe. It does not acknowledge opposition by Cherokee and Tuscarora recognized tribes to Federal recognition of Lumbees.-- Parkwells ( talk) 13:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Ancestors of today's Lumbee tribe were recorded in the 1790 census as "free persons of color", indicating uncertain ethnic origin but probably an admixture of African, European and perhaps Native American blood.from the Lead in place it in an "opponents to the Lumbee" section. Jas392 ( talk) 14:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Genealogical researchers have documented that ancestors of many Lumbee families were part of a tri-racial isolate group of predominantly African and European ethnicity, originating among individuals free in colonial Virginia. Most such free African Americans were descended from unions between white women, servant or free, and African men, servant, free or enslaved. Although relationships across racial lines were tolerated among the servant class in early colonial days, Virginia officials later moved to outlaw them. In the mid-1700s, the free colored families of Virginia migrated together, with other European colonists, into the interior of North Carolina. Researcher Paul Heinegg noted numerous families identified as mulattos, many with characteristically Lumbee names, in the 1768-1770 tax lists for Bladen County, from which Robeson County was formed. Heinegg found no nuclear families listed as Indian. In the 1790-1800 censuses, all free people of color were listed under "other free".Jas392 ( talk) 14:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
These congressional hearings and studies "concluded that the Lumbee were a distinct, viable Indian community descended from Siouan speaking tribes, principally the Cheraw."Cite: Senate Report 108-213 (11/25/2003). The Lead says they are African, European, and perhaps Indian while relying on a source that is self-published and neither academic nor peer-reviewed. For a majority opinion, I propose that we rely on an authoritative and reliable factfinding body such as the US Congress' voluminous record dealing with these precise issues over the past 120 years. For instance, it is critical that the following be added to the lead as poignantly factual:
The Lumbee are the only remaining tribe in the United States to have been acknowledged by Congress as Indian and prohibited federal Indian services in the same act.
See e.g. S. Hrg 109-610, Statement of Hon. John McCain, US Senator of Arizona, Chairman, Committee on Indian Affairs, 7/12/2006. There have only been two other tribes that had the same experience: the Ysleta del Sur Pueblo of Texas and Pascua Yaqui Tribe of Arizona.
See P.L. 95-375 for the Pascua Yaqui (9/18/1978) and P.L. 100-89 for Ysleta (12/18/1987). Congress has since enacted legislation to restore the federal relationship to these two tribes.
Id. The only tribe that remains in this situation is the Lumbee.
See e.g. S. Rpt. 109-334 (9/13/2006). There are also other state-recognized tribes seeking recognition as American Indian tribes.
See Cohen's Handbook on Federal Indian Law section 3.02[8][a].
Jas392 (
talk)
17:30, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Congress did not "restore" a relationship. None existed. The federal government had no relationship with these entities; Congress has forced recognition through a political process.-- Parkwells ( talk) 14:26, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
This debate is irrelevant to the Lumbee article. Verklempt ( talk) 20:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
There has been no discussion about the recent wave of edits that contradict much of what was in the previous version. I don't know who's right, but there needs to be discussion before making such massive changes. If this continues there will be no option but to protect the page from editing until the disputes are solved.-- Cúchullain t/ c 18:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
The tribe went through several name changes: from Croatan, to Cherokees, to Siouan, to Lumbee. This is off the top of my head. If we want name changes in the lede, then it should cover all of the names IMO. Verklempt ( talk) 20:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
I've protected the page due to the recent edit warring. Further changes need to be discussed first, especially radical changes like the ones that have been made recently. Cúchullain t/ c 03:39, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Paul Heinegg did years' worth of research on his book Free African Americans in North Carolina, Virginia, and South Carolina. He received awards for this work both from the North Carolina Genealogical Society in 1992, and the Donald Lines Jacobus Award for the best work of genealogy published between 1991 and 1994 from the American Society of Genealogists in 1994. There were whites in North Carolina who objected to the award by the state association (per 8 Jan 2004 article, NY Times). He continues to update his material on his website, and has added material on families in Maryland and Delaware. He has also published articles with Dr. Virginia Easley De Marce, a Ph.D. in history who served as President of the National Genealogical Society, and works at Dept of Interior in reviewing Native American tribal recognition. Although Heinegg's first book was self-published, later editions with updates have been published every two years by Genealogical Publishing Company, Inc. We are not required to justify our sources here, but Heinegg's work has received praise from historians such as Dr. Boles of Rice U. and Dr. Ira Berlin of U of MD. -- Parkwells ( talk) 15:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
The Lumbee are a Native American people originally of North Carolina, though their origins are disputed.
While Lumbees today identify ethnically as Indians, according to documentary sources they are in origin a mixture of the Cheraw and related Siouan-speaking tribes of the coastal regions of North Carolina as well as some European and African ancestry.
In 1885 the State of North Carolina recognized the Lumbee as American Indians.Jas392 ( talk) 21:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
The Lumbee are a Native American people originally of North Carolina, though their origins are disputed.
While Lumbees today identify ethnically as Indians, according to documentary sources they are in origin a mixture of the Cheraw and related Siouan-speaking tribes of the coastal regions of North Carolina as well as some European and African ancestry.
In 1885 the State of North Carolina recognized the Lumbee as American Indians.OR
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Right now, the passage in question is original research. It’s also POV, e.g.: “thorough analysis”, “more often than not”, “can not be traced with certainty.” Heinegg and Demarce are well-respected and well-published genealogists. This passage does not even come close to meeting WP standards of verifiability. Verklempt 20:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I do not question the genealogical evidence presented by Demarce and Heinegg, it is their personalized interpretations of their research that they so carelessly insert all throughout the factual information that I question. This particular work is riddled with unsubstantiated heavily personalized and biased misleading statements that if not read under close scrutiny can easily be misconstrued to be facts themselves. Their credentials will not suffice as evidence that everything they say is true, in fact under a thorough critique of their work it will be seen that a large portion of what they present is pure speculation!
Although they have proven that some families (roughly a third) among Robeson County Indians at least “IN PART” originated from Virginia, for a vast majority such claims are pure “UNPROVEN SPECULATION.” Take the Locklear family (the biggest Indian family in Robeson County to date) for example. In Heinegg and Demarce’s research they trace all the Robeson County Locklears back to a Robert Locklear who owned land on the Roanoke River in the part of Edgecombe County that would later become Halifax County North Carolina. They assumed that he “MAY” be descended from a Frenchman by the name of Jacob Lockeleer in Virginia, but the verifiable trail for this family ends at Robert; yet Heinegg and Demarce blatantly state, in regards to Mary Normant claiming that a Betty Locklear was a half breed Tuscarora, that “it is more likely that they (the ancestors of the Locklears in Robeson) were already a mixture of African, European, and perhaps Native American when they came to North Carolina.” As in “THEY CAN NOT PROVE THAT THIS FAMILY CAME FROM VIRGINIA YET THEY STATE THAT THEY DID!”
This is “BY FAR” not the only time that such speculative assumptions have been presented as fact here, Heinegg and Demarce’s credentials are worthless! My statements were not original research; all I did was offer an accurate critique of well published blindly accepted propagandized POV garbage! Bobby Hurt 03:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps you are correct to a certain extent; after all I am new to WP. I will definitely make an effort in the future to make sure that what edits I make properly reflect the actual (as in not your personalized interpretations of them) WP standards. On the same note, it appears that you have been here for a long time and should therefore be very familiar with the policies in place here. Therefore, you should have known better (and probably did) than to insert so many of your personal beliefs into this article! For example:
1.)"families with the same surnames as Lumbees"--without checking to see if any of the individuals mentioned could actually be tied to Robeson Indians, such a statement was completely uncalled for as well as inaccurate, 2.) Inferring that it is impossible for there to be a large portion of Indian blood represented within Robeson County Indians when it most definitely is. Such a statement is your own “UNPROVEN PERSONAL POINT OF VIEW, that absolutely does not belong in a respectable article,” 3.) “in which they described non-white residents” of Robeson as being a free colored population that migrated originally from the districts round-about the Roanoke and Neuse Rivers--The only “FREE-colored” people who came to Robeson County were Lumbee ancestors, there were other “non-whites” who were slaves or slaves that had been set free, but they were not free-colored when they got here. Your contribution is a completely inaccurate unnecessary personalized statement that has no business being on a professionally written public page, and 4.) “By 1802, the northern Tuscarora leaders felt that the emigration was complete, and that while some of their relatives had stayed behind, those people had intermarried with other races and ethnicities and were no longer tribal members.”--and this statement can be referenced how? The actual historic record indicates that there are roughly at least 1000 (and this is extremely conservative estimate) unaccounted for Tuscarora.
I am also curious to know how it is a violation to expose WP readers to such common knowledge as was illustrated by Charles F Pierce (Supervisor of Indian Schools for the Department of Interior) in 1912 when he stated (in a public federal government document) that “One would readily class a large majority of [the Lumbee] as being at least three-fourths Indian?” Who are you to dictate that Heinegg and Demarce’s highly opinionated work is the only thing that carries any weight? There is a lot of evidence that contradicts what Heinegg and Demarce theorize (some of it being from within their own heavily censored highly incomplete twisted propagandized research); therefore, what they claim is not a proven "FACT." You are entitled to believe what this one source claims if you wish (and I will admit that just like most other things, there is “SOME” truth to what they say), but you have no right to present it as being undisputable fact within this article (because their claims are heavily disputed).
From reading over your earlier replies on this talk page it is easy to see that you have continuously attempted to break down, scrutinize, and completely disregard and leave out every piece of evidence (a majority of which is located in verifiable sources) showing any Indian heritage within Robeson County; yet you won’t allow the same scrutiny to fall upon the untouchable Heinegg and Demarce work to which you so tightly cling. Your actions are extremely hypocritical Sir and you have no right to sensor a public resource in such a personalized way (i.e. POV)! The narrow minded semantic bigotry you have portrayed thus far on this talk page (and other places) is ridiculous! It is ludicrous that those editors above you have allowed you to play God on this website for as long as they have!
FYI: If you would have actually read the work that you so blindly put your faith in you would have know that according to “HEINEGG and DEMARCE”, Isaac Hammond the second (whose wife upon his death in 1822 filed a pension in 1849 stating that both his parents were Mulattoes or Mustees having no African blood in them) was the son of an Isaac Hammond, brother of Ann Hammond who was acknowledged in Bertie County court in February 1739 that she had two bastard children, race not mentioned, while indentured to John Pratt, the keeper of the ferry across the Roanoke River at Gideon Gibson’s landing
“HEINEGG and DEMARCE” also state that this same Ann Hammond (who would essentially also be a Mullato or Mustees with no African blood in her as well) was also the mother of John and Horatio Hammond (their father is unknown) who moved to Robeson County from Bertie County (John in 1768 and Horatio in 1784) and produced 16 children, founding the entire Hammonds family in Robeson County.
I appeal to the legitimate editors on this site to recognize the covert discrimination (i.e. Unequal and harmful treatment that is hidden, purposeful, and often maliciously motivated and stems from conscious attempts to ensure failure) that this anonymous individual is inflicting on your site, and put an end to it! Bobby Hurt 12:35, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
LOL! You can’t be serious! Actually my friend I have spent over 300 hours analyzing and reading over the research they did in reference to Robeson County families (I had a copy of it sitting in front of me when I wrote the information above). Their work can be easily accessed on the net at the site Heinegg and Demarce so ingeniously (they are so good at what they do) labeled (www.freeafricanamericans.com) if you should ever care to check over anything I just said. Let me remind you of some things that “YOU” stated in the discussions above:
1.) However, there is basically no surviving evidence of Indian identity among the Lumbee ancestors prior to 1885. This makes it a total leap of faith to assume that they had one. Verklempt 02:00, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
2.) “Do you have any evidence of problems with DeMarce's published research? I've never seen anyone demonstrate any serous errors or bias in her work. Or do you just dislike that she documents the Lumbee's African side of their ancestry?Verklempt 19:26, 8 October 2006 (UTC) “
3.) You still haven't specified your disagreement with DeMarce's research. I'm sensing a vague whiff of conspiracy theory about her having worked for the feds, but nothing concrete. I would also point out that your resort to ad hominem is becoming habitual, and that's quite revealing.Verklempt 00:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
It would appear that “YOU” in fact initiated this debate my friend! Isn’t “debate and discussion” what this “TALK PAGE” is here for? You certainly seemed to think so in the past! Why the sudden change of heart now? You were all about spurting off at the mouth and telling people who they are and aren’t earlier, yet you suddenly want the discussion to end when one of them calls your bluff! Is it just me or is anyone else getting a vague whiff of the hypocrisy taking place here? Your actions are becoming so habitual and that’s quite revealing! Bobby Hurt 12:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Could someone vet the changes and additions added to the article today? The info looks mostly good, but it looks like the citations are screwed up.-- Cúchullain t/ c 05:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The page is now protected, effectively forcing a truce in the edit war. I'd like to see us have a civil, reasoned discussion about the disputed material. Who wants to start? Henrymrx ( talk) 14:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Good idea Henrymrx, calming down the edit wars. I think such a contentious subject as this one would warrant a stepping back and taking a deep breath from everyone involved!
To Verklempt: What do you mean by "African?" There is plenty of evidence that Lumbee have ancestry from Moors/Turks/others from that area of the world. For example, Heather Locklear's middle name is Deen, an Arabic word essentially meaning "way of life," albeit far more encompassing. As with most people in this country, USAmerica, you probably mean SSWestAfrican. I believe there is both "Moorish" and SSWAfrican as well. Please do not try and find Negroid ancestry in everything, that is one reason why established tribes are kicking out Freedmen. I think that it is a poor/cruel move on their part, but when you have scum such as Outkast, five percenters by the way, and their mockery of Indians for the delight of others, who can blame the tribes for kicking the Freedmen out? Blacks move everywhere and then claim they started something they had no part of in the beginning. I have all kinds of ancestry in me, and I have many distant cousins passing as black because they have dark(er) skin. If you check the names in Melungeon lists for example, you will find many surnames that are also common among those in that very area of those that migrate to cities and pass as full black. Williams is one, there are many of them in the Carolinas. I think the freedmen ought to stay in the tribes, perhaps if the Union Army hadn't have pulled out of the South too early and abandoned Reconstructiom turning the South over to the "Redeemers," then we wouldn't be in this mess now. They did, and we are still paying for it. I think the tribes ought to tell the Feds to screw off regarding quantum and let the freedmen stay, but that's just me. Yes, the gaming money is a driving factor, although the claiming of everything with some black influence as black is as well.
Question to anyone: Above, the Holland Land Company was mentioned. Is there any connection with Holland Island in the Chesapeake Bay? My GGF William T. Bennett dissembled houses there and moved them to Cambridge Maryland, because of the sinking of the island of course. He pretty much built up the entire West End of town there. Interestingly enough, I have some letters from the Holland Island Preservation Society run by a Mr. White who had ancestors on the island as well. I also have relatives by that name whom I visited many years ago in what is now North Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. Mr. White was in coorespondence with both my mother and her mother, both deceased. The "Day" in my name comes from my father's father, who interestingly enough had ancestors in NC. Interestingly enough, my father's mother was a Mitchell. Enough of me for now, perhaps I can jumpstart this page.
I don't think this page is possible without personal anecdotes, especially since the topic is still in its growth stages. JBDay ( talk) 06:26, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Was there any documentation as to the criteria the committee used to determine what children were eligible for the school(s) established for Indians in NC? Did they use family genealogies?-- Parkwells ( talk) 00:00, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
But? If the people had an oral history in 1886 as being Indian (or mostly Indian) spanning back for generations, wouldn't that mean that.............could it be.............perhaps maybe....... folks knew that they were Indian despite the fact that "OTHER PEOPLE" labeled them otherwise? Bobby Hurt ( talk) 00:45, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
An editor has added a statement in the lead/lede about potential impact of recognition. This is not really covered by the article, and may deserve a separate article. This one is about the Lumbee group itself.-- Parkwells ( talk) 20:06, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Please stop adding material about escaped slaves. That is not the main point - the point is that working class white women and African men had relationships and children together. Heinegg's point and documentation is not about mostly escaped slaves. It is that in the early days of VA, white women, servants or free, chose African men as partners. Sometimes they were indentured servants who became free, as did Europeans; sometimes they were slave. The children were free because the mothers were free, and they were African Americans or people of color free in colonial VA.-- Parkwells ( talk) 21:19, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
http://ncmuseumofhistory.org/workshops/civilrights1/oral_pol.html David F Lowry ( talk) 04:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Please stop changing this to something that Heinegg did not state. If an editor has another source for "skeptics about Native American origins, use that". Heinegg does not say he was skeptical; he simply lays out the documentation. He did not write that Lumbee were chiefly of African ancestry; rather he pointedly stated that 80 percent of cthe free people of color in NC in censuses from 1790-1810 (which would have included Lumbee ancestors) were descended from African Americans (mixed-race) free in VA during the colonial period. Most of those families were started from the children of relationships of white women with African or African American men, and their multiracial children. Many of these families moved together and settled in groups, creating frontier communities in VA and NC, along with European migrants/neighbors.-- Parkwells ( talk) 02:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
If this is true then certain folks need to stop saying that Heinegg theorized that "LUMBEES/TUSCARORAS" come from these mixed race unions in this article, because to do so is false (or POV). So unless someone can cite exactly where Heinegg says this (as in specifically states that Lumbee/Tuscarora in Robeson are primarily of African and European origin from Virginia); I move that his work be completely removed as a source from this page.
Nevermind how certain editors might interpret his research to read (after all that would be original research wouldn't it; which is definately something Wikipedia doesn't endorse right?) Bobby Hurt ( talk) 20:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Before I comment further I would appreciate it if you (Parkwells) could give me a direct strait forward answer to the following question: Did Heinegg or did he not write that the Lumbee ancestors were chiefly of African American (or mixed European and African American) ancestry? (I'd have asked Verklempt as well but he has allready given a strait forward definitive answer, what's your position?) Bobby Hurt ( talk) 06:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
But it is about your opinion here (in this discussion that we are having). In your (Parkwells) first statement you said that Heinegg did not write that Lumbees are chiefly of African ancestry. Yet in the same discussion your arguing that he listed most (as 24 and definately 35 families would have been most) Lumbee families in the 1760-1800 census as being descended from African Americans. I'm confused here, because your statements from one response to the next do not paint the same picture, hence the reason why I asked you that question (just fishing for a strait forward position, it's much easier to address that way, judging by your response it appears that a strait forward discussion is not what you looking for though). Personally I am well aware (and was well aware before I asked you that question) of the fact that Heinegg specifically targets Robco people in his work (and while we're on the subject I would like to thank Verklempt for helping to point this out for me, I knew youd pop up if somebody tried to actually remove your presious Heinegg crap, well thanks anyway!).
My point being that he does specifically try to target and discredit (he even repeatedly goes out of his way to do so) the fact that Robeson county people are primarily of Indian origin despite the fact that his work is "SUPPOSED" to (as you are trying to portray it) be a non-biased overview of free African Americans in general with no particular agenda in mind. Bottom line: nobody is changing this to something that Heinegg did not state, people are just exposing him for what he was really trying to do! Bobby Hurt ( talk) 00:23, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Personally (and I'm going off of what he says on his website here, which I would assume is the same as in his book) I do not agree with the following statement being placed in this article: "In his book he identified 35 families by name listed on the 1768-1770 tax lists for Bladen County, from which Robeson County was formed. Except for Tom Britt, who was listed as Indian, all the others were listed as mulatto. Similarly, Heinegg listed 24 "other free" families by name in Robeson County from the 1790-1800 censuses. In his book he had traced each back to persons referred to as "Negro" or "mulatto" in Virginia or North Carolina"
To continue further with what Verklempt mentioned about the Lowrie page; Heinegg blatantly argues against the fact that the Lowries were descendants from a white man who married a half breed Tuscarora arguing that it is impossible because no records were found to indicate this (he also attacked the fact that Kerseys, Cumbos and Locklears were as well despite the fact that that had nothing to do with the Lowrie history itself, he went out of his way here and stepped beyond the bounds of unbiased presentation). The problem here is that he also has no documentation to prove otherwise, therefore making Mary Norments "the Lowrie history" the only existing evidence found on this family's geneology. I don't understand how the statement "Heinegg traced EACH back to persons refered to as Negro or Mulatto in NC or VA" can properly be used here.
It is also true that Heinegg can't trace the Jones family, the Dial family, the Brooks family, the woods family, the Clark family, the Collins family, the Cooper family, the Cox family, the Deese family, the Demery family, the Bullard family, the Freeman family, the Fuller family, the Grooms family, the Harden family, the Leviner family, the maynor family etc...(and the list goes on) at all past Robeson. So again; how saying he traced "EACH" is appropriate; I don't know?
It is also true that for a vast majority of families Heinegg states that said individual "MAY" have been the child of other said individual. In some cases he doesn't even say "May" he just lists a "Free Negro" from Virginia and then starts off talking about individuals in NC as being descended from that person without providing any documentation to verify such misleading assumptions. You will find this type of thing in the Hammonds family section, the Bell family section, the Locklear family section, the Revels family section, the Sweat family section,the Wilkins family section, the Wynn family section, the Scott family section, the Chavis family section, the Cumbo family section, the Goins family section, the Carter family section, etc.....and the list goes on.
If Heinegg wasn't blatantly trying to discredit Robeson County Indian claims he most definately conducted his research and presented it in a most inaccurate, careless, and inconsistant way.
Verklemp? Where can I find where Heinegg specifically mentions Lumbees in his introduction on his website? I have the Lowrie section as I printed it out about 2 years ago (along with 37 other family trees). I am aware that he blatantly attack's a Tuscarora identity in that section (without documentable basis) but I still can't find the intro you speak of, Please give a specific reference.
As I said I printed out 38 names associated with Robeson in Heineggs work, don't you think it say's something that I just put 29 of them into question? 17 of which (and some of the others I listed would also fall into this category as well under thorough critique, as I just skimmed over it) he can't even trace at all? Things are not nearly as concise as you people are "INTERPRETING (POV)" his work to be and the current article as it is now written must be changed to reflect accurate facts!
The Indian folks in Robeson (both Lumbee and Tuscarora) have a very painful history in the state of North Carolina and such careless one-sided presentation of facts as there are within this current article are most damaging and insulting to our people. Personally I will not argue to take Heineggs work out, but I will demand that it be presented accurately and fairly and not blown out of proportion in the way that it is being presented at this time! If this article is ever going to get to the point of being completely neutral and unbiased then it is essential that the Indian history of North Carolina be addressed in proper context here. The designation of Mullatoe or other free does not make a person part black in the colonial Carolinas. It does insinuate that they could have been, but it doesn not neccessarily mean that they were. In my analysis of Heineggs research I have found only one example of a Lumbee ancestor specifically stating that they were black, yet I have found numerouse examples where they stated that they weren't.
It must farther be understood that detribalized Indains in NC as a whole "were not" labeled as Indian. There is verifiable evidence that there were thousands of American Indian people residing in the Carolinas off of Indian land, yet you only find individuals here and there being regarded as Indian in source documents. Thus it is only proper to assume that the vast majority of the Native population in this region were not labeled properly. This is illustrated (as I mentioned in a previous discussion) by the fact that it is know that roughly a 100 Tuscaroras remained on the Indian Woods reservation when it was disbanded and yet "NOT ONE" Indian was listed there in source documents once that reservation was "NO LONGER LEGAL INDIAN LAND, but there were plenty of Mullatoes and other frees listed there indicating that that is what non-reserved Indians would have legally been classed as in that region (which is the same region that a vast majority of Lumbee ancestors came from)!"
Documented history indicates that there were well over 1000 non-reservated Tuscaroras living in northeaster North Carolina before that reservation was disbanded. Taking into to consideration that they would have been classed as mullatoe or other free, taking into consideration that the Lumbee ancestors who lived there (at the same time these Tuscaroras would have been there) were generally classed as Mullatoe or other free, coupled with the fact that the original affiliation handed down by Lumbee ancestors in Robeson was Tuscarora, coupled with the fact that numerous experts acknowledged repeatedly that Robco Indians "Maintained their race integrity (i.e. were pretty much indian at their core) with a small admixture with the colonial races and an even smaller admixture with other races," were considered to be mostly of Indian origin with the Negro blood "NOT" predominating (but there, and I have never denied this), were described as "there being a large majority who posses 3/4 or more Indian blood" etc... This article "MUST" be changed to reflect this "VERIFIABLE and easily CITABLE" other side of this story in order to present a "NEUTRAL/ACCURATE" wikipedia page to the readers!
Parwells; as of yet I am not sure if you are just presenting the facts as you see them or if you may have other motives here. However I will give you the benefit of the doubt and appologize for coming off as hostile as I do. You must understand that this article is about me and my family and is therefor "VERY" personal for me! I love my people and I am proud of our heritage and legacy and I do not and will not ever take litely any sort of bigotry, undermining, or any other sort of blatant attack on my people heritage and legacy!
So lets all get real here, we can acknowledge that many Lumbees have African ancestry without trying to go beyond the realm of provability by presenting certain un-verifiable opinions (POV)arguing that they aren't largely of Indian ancestry as fact.
Fairness and neutrality is all I (and my kinsmen) am asking for here! Is that to much to ask? Bobby Hurt ( talk) 20:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Which particular claim are you specifically intirested in (as there are different sources for different things, some of which have allready been provided on this talk page)? I'd be happy to answer your question but you need to be more specific. Also; as an act of good faith I'd appreciate it if you could return the courtesy and point me to where Heinegg specifically mentions Lumbees in his introduction on his website (I've been looking and I can't find it)? Bobby Hurt ( talk) 01:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
The "Introduction" is really a long overview and summary of his findings about 400 documented families, starting with five or six major findings - among them that he found no nuclear families of Indians in early records, and much evidence that free Indians joined free African American communities/settlements and married African Americans. He also noted his findings that most African Americans who were free in colonial VA were descended from white women (whom he later shows he was able to identify by name in colonial records) and African/African American men. Later he noted that a few families, among them Collins originating in SC, descended from a white planter father and enslaved mother.
He describes the migration patterns out of VA to NC and SC (and elsewhere) and includes history of early colonial society. He notes the areas where free African Americans tended to settle. There are several major sections in this part that are in bold.
While this article is about people known as Lumbees, some of the issues that affected them affected all all free people of color in NC, so editors should refrain from altering text dealing with historic issues to try to reframe all "free Negroes" or "free people of color", as they were referred to in some historic texts, as ancestral Lumbees. One person changed material having to do with the disfranchisement of free people of color by the 1835 constitutional amendment. That amendment affected all free people of color in NC, not just some ancestors of Lumbee families. All free people of color were not ancestral Lumbees.-- Parkwells ( talk) 18:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC)-- Parkwells ( talk) 19:14, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
The Lumbee are a people claimed to be native to North America and descending from the Cheraw and related Siouan-speaking tribes of Native Americans originally inhabiting the coastal regions of the state of North Carolina.
In 1885 the State of North Carolina recognized the Lumbee as American Indians.as the opening for the lead. It's the most accurate while not being disparaging to the people who are the subject of the page. Jas392 ( talk) 20:23, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
The Lumbee are an Indian tribe in North America.This part is also problematic:
In 1885 the State of North Carolina recognized the Lumbee as American Indians.Actually, NC recognized the Croatans, not the Lumbees. Verklempt ( talk) 21:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
The article can fairly state that congressional REPORTS have concluded that the Lumbee are a distinct, viable Indian community descended from Siouan speaking tribes, principally the Cheraw.Cite: Senate Report 108-213 (11/25/2003) (2) Ditto about the fair statement. But I will concede that the article should also fairly state and cite your preference for pointing out the controversy. (3) Ditto about the fair statement. I'm guessing that you're referring to the Tuscis? This article is not about the Indians of Robeson County. It's about the Lumbee. So, why can't the Lumbee be a tribe? Afterall, they are recognized by the State of North Carolina as the "Lumbee Tribe of North Carolina." With all do respect (I do appreciate your help in parsing this out), the assertion that the Lumbee are not a tribe is really just a distraction. Jas392 ( talk) 16:34, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
If the Loweries were fighting against Reconstruction government from 1868-1872, they were fighting Republicans not Democrats, right? This section states the governor asked for Federal troops for help. I think the Democrats did not regain power in the state until later but have to check some other sources.-- Parkwells ( talk) 19:41, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Among the additions on Heinegg's website (wwww.freeafricanamericans.com) is one headed "Colonial Tax Lists, Census and Court Records for DE, MD, NC, SC, TN and VA." Under this is a section "Robeson Co. Family Origins, Tax List". The first page is a summary of the origin of surnames that later appeared in Robeson Co among ancestors of Lumbee; a number were of slaves freed early in colonial times. Other items are transcriptions of tax lists. There are also transcriptions of many court and census records. This is for readers' information.-- Parkwells ( talk) 20:25, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
The lead is hideously long - please shorten it. — Mike. lifeguard | @en.wb 00:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Someone changed the Lumbee population from 30,000 to 53,000 in the Infobox. There is no source for the number.-- Parkwells ( talk) 12:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
This does not reflect the whole article and controversy about origins, but mostly addresses only the fight for political recognition, and most recent claims of the tribe. It does not acknowledge opposition by Cherokee and Tuscarora recognized tribes to Federal recognition of Lumbees.-- Parkwells ( talk) 13:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Ancestors of today's Lumbee tribe were recorded in the 1790 census as "free persons of color", indicating uncertain ethnic origin but probably an admixture of African, European and perhaps Native American blood.from the Lead in place it in an "opponents to the Lumbee" section. Jas392 ( talk) 14:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Genealogical researchers have documented that ancestors of many Lumbee families were part of a tri-racial isolate group of predominantly African and European ethnicity, originating among individuals free in colonial Virginia. Most such free African Americans were descended from unions between white women, servant or free, and African men, servant, free or enslaved. Although relationships across racial lines were tolerated among the servant class in early colonial days, Virginia officials later moved to outlaw them. In the mid-1700s, the free colored families of Virginia migrated together, with other European colonists, into the interior of North Carolina. Researcher Paul Heinegg noted numerous families identified as mulattos, many with characteristically Lumbee names, in the 1768-1770 tax lists for Bladen County, from which Robeson County was formed. Heinegg found no nuclear families listed as Indian. In the 1790-1800 censuses, all free people of color were listed under "other free".Jas392 ( talk) 14:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
These congressional hearings and studies "concluded that the Lumbee were a distinct, viable Indian community descended from Siouan speaking tribes, principally the Cheraw."Cite: Senate Report 108-213 (11/25/2003). The Lead says they are African, European, and perhaps Indian while relying on a source that is self-published and neither academic nor peer-reviewed. For a majority opinion, I propose that we rely on an authoritative and reliable factfinding body such as the US Congress' voluminous record dealing with these precise issues over the past 120 years. For instance, it is critical that the following be added to the lead as poignantly factual:
The Lumbee are the only remaining tribe in the United States to have been acknowledged by Congress as Indian and prohibited federal Indian services in the same act.
See e.g. S. Hrg 109-610, Statement of Hon. John McCain, US Senator of Arizona, Chairman, Committee on Indian Affairs, 7/12/2006. There have only been two other tribes that had the same experience: the Ysleta del Sur Pueblo of Texas and Pascua Yaqui Tribe of Arizona.
See P.L. 95-375 for the Pascua Yaqui (9/18/1978) and P.L. 100-89 for Ysleta (12/18/1987). Congress has since enacted legislation to restore the federal relationship to these two tribes.
Id. The only tribe that remains in this situation is the Lumbee.
See e.g. S. Rpt. 109-334 (9/13/2006). There are also other state-recognized tribes seeking recognition as American Indian tribes.
See Cohen's Handbook on Federal Indian Law section 3.02[8][a].
Jas392 (
talk)
17:30, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Congress did not "restore" a relationship. None existed. The federal government had no relationship with these entities; Congress has forced recognition through a political process.-- Parkwells ( talk) 14:26, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
This debate is irrelevant to the Lumbee article. Verklempt ( talk) 20:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
There has been no discussion about the recent wave of edits that contradict much of what was in the previous version. I don't know who's right, but there needs to be discussion before making such massive changes. If this continues there will be no option but to protect the page from editing until the disputes are solved.-- Cúchullain t/ c 18:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
The tribe went through several name changes: from Croatan, to Cherokees, to Siouan, to Lumbee. This is off the top of my head. If we want name changes in the lede, then it should cover all of the names IMO. Verklempt ( talk) 20:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
I've protected the page due to the recent edit warring. Further changes need to be discussed first, especially radical changes like the ones that have been made recently. Cúchullain t/ c 03:39, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Paul Heinegg did years' worth of research on his book Free African Americans in North Carolina, Virginia, and South Carolina. He received awards for this work both from the North Carolina Genealogical Society in 1992, and the Donald Lines Jacobus Award for the best work of genealogy published between 1991 and 1994 from the American Society of Genealogists in 1994. There were whites in North Carolina who objected to the award by the state association (per 8 Jan 2004 article, NY Times). He continues to update his material on his website, and has added material on families in Maryland and Delaware. He has also published articles with Dr. Virginia Easley De Marce, a Ph.D. in history who served as President of the National Genealogical Society, and works at Dept of Interior in reviewing Native American tribal recognition. Although Heinegg's first book was self-published, later editions with updates have been published every two years by Genealogical Publishing Company, Inc. We are not required to justify our sources here, but Heinegg's work has received praise from historians such as Dr. Boles of Rice U. and Dr. Ira Berlin of U of MD. -- Parkwells ( talk) 15:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
The Lumbee are a Native American people originally of North Carolina, though their origins are disputed.
While Lumbees today identify ethnically as Indians, according to documentary sources they are in origin a mixture of the Cheraw and related Siouan-speaking tribes of the coastal regions of North Carolina as well as some European and African ancestry.
In 1885 the State of North Carolina recognized the Lumbee as American Indians.Jas392 ( talk) 21:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
The Lumbee are a Native American people originally of North Carolina, though their origins are disputed.
While Lumbees today identify ethnically as Indians, according to documentary sources they are in origin a mixture of the Cheraw and related Siouan-speaking tribes of the coastal regions of North Carolina as well as some European and African ancestry.
In 1885 the State of North Carolina recognized the Lumbee as American Indians.OR