![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Do you really have to point out how Beethoven's name is pronounced?
Who is this Wiki for anyway?
Can we not FOR ONCE get out from under this AWFUL POMPOUS influence?
i think the name is important...how would you like that yours will be mispronounced?
It's always useful to know how a name is pronounced correctly. Unfortunately in this case the information given is simply incorrect. As a native German speaker I can tell you that the "h" is anything but silent but is in fact enunciated quite distinctly, the sound being produced near the opening of the mouth/lips as in "hot", not further back as in "how", in any case being far removed from the suppression of the "h"-sound often (not)heard in renditions of the popular song "Roll over Beethoven" by English and American singers.
If the given pronunciation would ,as you state, be generally "accepted" (whatever that means), why would it then have to be given in parentheses (in a form only "understood" by the "knowledgable") ? And isn't an encyclopedic project like "Wikipedia" expressly devoted to making people more "knowledgable" ? Even if you would have to hide your "knowledgeability" to avoid unwelcome suspicions of "poshness".
So that the "correct" pronunciation given in the french version of "Wikipedia" would have to be something like "Bettovén". It's what the French always instinctively knew to be true. Gerald; Vienna; 10-09-06
I have presented a summary of research on Beethoven's hearing ability at Talk:Life_and_work_of_Ludwig_van_Beethoven. It should clear up misconceptions about the state of his hearing. - Gyan 18:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps more relating to the excellent movie with Gary Oldman and especially the theories expounded therein. It is taken for granted Ludde had syphilis but little real estate is devoted to where he got it - and why he would have been so furious at the adoption proceedings. The theory of this movie is an interesting and perhaps valid (and true) one and should be discussed, the pros and cons weighed.
Ludwig Van Beethoven
He wrote 138 opus numbers consisting of nine symphonies, sixteen string quartets, nine piano trios, thirty two piano sonatas, ten sonatas for violin and piano, five fo cello and piano, five piano concertos, a violin concerto, and nine concert overtures. (Borroff 488) Ludwig Van Beethoven was born in Bonn, German in 1770. His dad pushed him so hard to be the next Mozart that he hit his fingers with sticks until he played it right. When he started to play the piano he was only four, he was so tiny that he was to stand on the piano bench.
When Beethoven turned twelve he started to work with a tutor to help him learn how to play the piano, by the age of fifteen he was already writing some of his first pieces. Beethoven’s first public performance was in 1795, when he was twenty five. While Beethoven was in his mid twenties he started to go tone deaf. It made it hard to write music and then perform in front of the public, so he resorted to private parties.(Bouchier)
Beethoven’s most famous piece was Fidelio. At its big public debut it was played very poorly by Beethoven so nobody really liked it. During this time he wrote some of his most powerful pieces such as Symphony no.7, Pastoral Symphony, Symphony no.8, Piano concertos nos.4 and 5, and Violin Concerto. During his late period he played Hammer Klavier, op.106 and op.110, and Choral Symphony no.9 in d minor.
The article about Beethoven's Ninth Symphony is very interesting and enjoyable, but:
Should anybody change or delete or whatever that article, please do not delete the initial part (the one with the description of the symphony's movements), which was written by myself, obtaining it by the score of the symphony. -- Goochelaar
I would venture to say that it's written by an aficionado; if he's also a critic, he's a critic for a journal that doesn't bother archiving things online: [1]. Those three pages yield the year-old email mestrin1 at earthlink.net. Anyone care to ask him? -- Koyaanis Qatsi
Some statements in the article concerning Beethoven's work in relation to Haydn's and Mozart's are inaccurate.
First, the claim that his developments last 10 minutes. No, they are at most about 5 minutes. His longest movements are 15 to 20 minutes long (depending on repeats) with the development taking up about a third. In many of Haydn's works the development is equally extensive compared to the scale of the movement.
Second, the claim that the Eroica first movement is as long as a Mozart-era symphony. Mozart's symphonies with 4 movements take about 25 minutes to perform whereas the first movement of the Eroica is about 15 minutes. Possibly if one were to perform the Eroica very slowly with repeats and the Mozart very fast without repeats the times could be equal, but this is not a fair comparison.
However, it is indisputable that Beethoven's codas (closing sections) were on average much longer than Mozart's (no codas or very short ones) or Haydn's occasionally more extensive codas; and that Beethoven's movements were on average longer than Mozart's and Haydn's - say half as long again. There are very notable exceptions, like the short first movement of the Fifth Symphony and the String Quartet no.11 which is shorter than most of Haydn's mature works.
It's not true to say that Beethoven's use of rhythmic motifs contrasts strongly with Haydn's. On the contrary, Haydn pioneered the technique of breaking up musical thought into short, flexible rhythmic motifs, which Beethoven undoubtedly drew from. (See Haydn string quartet op.50 no.4 (first movement), the finale of the piano sonata no.52, the first movement of the sonata no.49, etc.etc.) However, Beethoven achieved unprecedented rhythmic drive and emotional and dramatic range with the technique, which probably leads many people to neglect Haydn's contribution.
While it's correct to say that the first-movement themes of the Fifth and Ninth symphonies are more rhythmic than melodic in character, it's difficult to see how the broad cello theme of the Eroica first movement can be called unmelodic. In fact, Mozart used the exact same melody decades earlier in one of his early minuets (though with a rather different overall effect). One of the distinguishing features of the 3rd. is the strong contrast between broad, simple melodies and energetic rhythmic passages. (Compare the quartet Op.59 no.1 first movement.)
Concerning the finale of the 3rd., it's more complex than just the initial (not very melodic) "theme" consisting of isolated notes. This turns out to be the bass-line of the theme revealed later, which is a broadly lyrical melody. In fact the bass-line is used as a *harmonic* theme, rather than a rhythmic one: Beethoven immediately changes the rhythm of the notes, but keeps the same harmony throughout the variations. This is similar to Baroque ground bass movements which present varying melodies and rhythms over the same harmony. Beethoven's innovation is in "fooling" us (at least the writer of the article) into thinking that the bass line is the melody. ***** tdent@auth.gr
Thanks for revising the Beethoven article, Stirling. I've edited slightly and added a bit more on the "crisis period."
I hope you will endorse (or at least put up with) my trimback of the discussion of the Ninth Symphony--the bits about the Choral Fantasy predecessor and the Berlin Wall were already there in the Ninth Symphony article, and I feel they fit there better than in the Beethoven article as such.
Have you thought of taking on Mozart or Schubert? Both need tender loving care right now.
Opus33 04:45, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I had not seen the Ninth Symphony Article when I posted my additions, and I agree that moving more writing there is better, it is an extensive article. The Beethoven needs revising, in that the section on his music proper needs to have a bit more on what an encyclopedia reader would need. What is there is technically good, and worthy to keep, but needs to be balanced with the emotional and literary work.
Schubert isn't really my strong point, I will probably stop by Haydn, and would like to continue to refine some of the individual articles on Beethoven's music, particularly his string quartets and piano trios.
A little while ago, somebody changed "baptized December 17" in the opening sentence to "born December 16". Is this definitely correct? I thought that we knew for sure when Beethoven was baptized, but couldn't say for sure what day he was born on. -- Camembert
We've now got individual articles on all nine symphonies, which I think renders the discussion of individual symphonies on this page redundant. I've put in cross-references.
In case anyone wants to restore old material, or transfer it to the individual symphony articles, below I've appended what I cut.
I hope this is ok. Opus33 20:44, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
Beethoven completed nine numbered symphonies. His first symphony, in C, is reliant upon Haydn models. His Symphony No. 2 in D extends Beethoven's understanding of the symphony. His first famous symphony was No. 3 in E-flat, better known as the Eroica. As mentioned, although this was originally dedicated to the French First Consul, Napoleon, Beethoven angrily ripped off the dedication after the Frenchman declared himself emperor.
The Symphony No. 4 in B-flat is a remarkable example of good humor. Even more famous is Symphony No. 5 in C minor, which starts with a well-known theme which people say sounds like fate knocking at the door. The Sixth Symphony, in F, is better known as the Pastoral. It is based on country life, and made up of five movements, of which the most famous are the second movement, Scene by the Brook, and the third, Merry Gathering of Country Folk.
The Seventh and Eighth symphonies are more rhythmic, the second movement of the eighth being based on the metronome, an invention by Beethoven's friend Johann Maelzel. The final complete symphony is Symphony No. 9 in D minor, composed in 1823 (and occasionally referred to as Choral), whose last movement, as mentioned, was a setting of Schiller's poem celebrating joy. A choir and four vocal soloists appear in this movement. (The chorus has been adopted as the official anthem of the European Union.)
Here's the stuff I just removed from the top of the article, in case anyone want to put it back:
Perhaps we should at least make a mention of it. Not all people visiting this site will know that Beethoven was the composer of these pieces. Let's make that connection for the layman reader. Taco325i 13:55 9 Aug 2005.
I'm posting this under Beethoven, since I think most classical music editors have this page on their watchlist, but the issue comes up for all composers.
We've now got a fair number of articles about individual compositions by Beethoven. What would be the best way to give the reader easy access to all of these articles? Asking the reader to go to "What links here" seems inadequate, since for someone like Beethoven the compositions are buried in a whole raft of other random cultural connections. Should there be a list, like ===Articles on compositions by Beethoven=== as part of the ==See also== section?
Whatever we do, if anything, probably should be done uniformly for all composers.
Thanks in advance for your opinion, yours very truly, Opus33 18:40, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for all your replies. I've tried to take them into account in revising List of works by Beethoven, adding links to every work that already has a Wikipedia article. As far as ordering the genres, I tried to follow what's in the Penguin Guide to CDs, which is probably already familiar to many people.
For other composers, e.g. Haydn, I think I will take Antandrus's advice and not duplicate the Beethoven scheme, but simply add to the ==See also== section. This seems the simplest way to guide the reader to articles on individual works so long as there isn't a great number of them. Opus33 19:52, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Hi- We already had a link to the Wikiquote entry for Beethoven, and there's also already a ban on banner ads in the Wikipedia, so I took out the ad. I think the article will be just as useful and also look much nicer if we leave these ads out. I hope that's ok. Cheers, Opus33 00:36, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Hi all-- This article has a rather long and rambling feel to it, and I'm only adding to the effect right now by putting in more details of Beethoven's biography. Usually when a Wikipedia article gets long, it is redeployed as a main article plus various satellite articles, with the main article including brief summaries of the satellite articles. For an example, see (among many others) United Kingdom.
For the Beethoven article, the satellites would plausibly be a detailed biography, a detailed discussion of musical style and innovations, a list of works (already a satellite), and perhaps something on symphonies.
Please reply if you think this is not the right way to go; otherwise I will try to implement it soon. Opus33 15:17, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
[P.S. thanks to Antandrus for preliminary discussion of this idea.]
See the article below in the "Beethoven Was Black" section for references/proof concerning Beethoven's lineage.
The article should mention the controversy (Edward G. Nilges 11-19-2004 210.21.221.184 02:26, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)) and I have added a paragraph.
Some scholars (by no means all) have raised the possibility that Beethoven was of at least partial African ancestry, and this may explain some of the rythmic and tonal explorations in his late works, where (for example) jazzlike syncopations appear in his Hammerklavier sonata. An explanation of this possibility would be the Turkish invasion of south-eastern Europe; the Turkish forces used Ethiopian and other African troops as musicians, and were stopped near Vienna in the 17th century. Other scholars reject this possibility.
Edward Nilges: I'll consider rewriting it with sources when I have time. The issue was, I think now, more appropriate to raise first in discussion but I was also pressed for time when I modified the article.
There was no assertion about syncopation, being genetic. There are indeed irresponsible assertions made about genetics, but the rule here is that any POSITIVE assertion about African genes is "irresponsible and inflammatory".
I didn't mention genes. Instead, there was an entire hidden Turkish tradition in south-eastern European classical music which emerges in the "Turkish" march but which is in denial about "miscegenation".
Rather than thinking Beethoven unique, the mathematics of human reproduction show race mixture to be the (denied) norm and not exceptional. If one traces only the patrilineal line, one ignores contributions which are by default multiracial.
I had alwayd understood it was Schubert who had a touch of black blood. Sounds like a fashionable theory of the day to explain musical talent, SqueakBox 15:01, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
"Rather than thinking Beethoven unique, the mathematics of human reproduction show race mixture to be the (denied) norm and not exceptional. If one traces only the patrilineal line, one ignores contributions which are by default multiracial."
The mathematics of human reproductuon show that Beethoven could also be Swiss. We know that some of his ancestors were Flemish, and we also know that during the 80 years war many Swiss mercenaries fought in Flandres, and probably got on with the local women a bit. From this we can conclude that there is a possibilty of Swiss ancestry in Beethoven's linage. I think this hypotheticly possible Swissness should be mentioned in the article.
The chances of Beethoven being black are about the same as the chances of Gustavus Adolphus being Vietnamese. Obviously the 19th century works claiming that he was black were ment to be defamatory, it's only in modern times that some Afrocentrics have accepted this as fact.
This seems to be so incredibly absurd; it is certainly not worth mentioning in the main article and I will most strenuously oppose anything of the kind.
The current edition of the section on Beethoven's race is an absolute disgrace. It's referential basis - a German race study from 1914 - is itself laughable. But even putting aside its blatantly rascist (and sexist - that one slips in too) agenda, the actual argument leaves something to be desired. It starts from the premiss that Beethoven was an “Alpinid”, which we are told means Celtic. We are then given a second premiss - namely that Alpinids are not “Negrids”. Ergo, syllogistic form leads us to the conclusion that Beethoven was not a “Negrid”. That is the central argument, although our good annalist goes so far as to adorn it with an analysis of the racial constitution of "the Moors" (does the adjective "Moorish" actually occur here?). Firstly now, (let's get this set out nice and clear so that we can all follow it) the initial premiss simply asserts what is at issue. Secondly the racial divisions, of which Negrid and Armenid are two, are too copious (I forget exactly how many) to allow for any strict boundary between seperate "races". That is, the "if Armenid then not Negrid" premiss just might not be as watertight as it intially appeared to be. Indeed, I would venture to suggest that these classifications from the (otherwise, I am sure, seminal) 1914 study are in fact arbitrary, informed by prejudice, and utterly without merit. Our esteemed chronicler's assurance that this literature has gained some favourable reception in the United States deos more harm to the reputation of that country than it adds to the reputation of the study. Finally, one might indeed enquire “what on earth is a Negrid?! An Alpinid?! Mediterannid-Aethiopid-Armenid???!!!” This article should be closed from gereral editing if this kind of trite, idiotic bigoted drivel continues to appear. —This unsigned comment was added by 86.128.119.22 ( talk • contribs) .
While there is no evidence for it, it should be documented as a speculation which goes back to the 19th century. Perhaps in the life and work section?
Stirling Newberry 01:42, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
"EVIDENCE"
Fredrick Hertz, German anthropologist, in "Race and Civilation" refers twice to Beethoven's "Negroid traits" and his "dark" skin, and "flat, thick nose." (pp. 123 and 178.)
Frau Fischer, an intimate acquaintance of Beethoven, describes him thus, "Short, stocky, broad shoulders, short neck, round nose, blackish- brown complexion." (From R. H. Schauffler, The Man Who Freed Music, Vol. I p. 18, 1929)
Alexander W. Thayer perhaps the foremost authority on Beethoven, says, "Beethoven had even more of the Moor in his features than his master, 'Haydn'." (Beethoven, Vol. I p. 146) By "Moor" was meant "Negro" Until recent times the German for "Negro" was "Mohr"
Paul Bekker, another very noted authority on Beethoven, says that "the most faithful picture of Beethoven's head" shows him with "wide thicklipped mouth, short thick nose and proudly arched forehead" (Beethoven, p. 41 1925. trans. Bozman).
For more extended proof as well as a picture of Beethoven's life- mask see ("Sex and Race", Vol. 3 pp. 306-309)
Hopefully this will clear up the controversy about proof of Beethoven's race. These claims of Beethoven's African lineage were not originally made by black people, but by white Europeans. They were not made to diminish him in creativity or stature. They were simply a description of him. These same Europeans had no knowledge of the uproar that this would cause amongst their American offspring.
Tom 11/09/2005
Whlie POV statements can be deleted in articles - In the talk section we don't delete others arguments - everyone is allowed to have their own opinion.-- God of War 04:23, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
From Cecil Adams of the Straight Dope:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/050527.html
No, Beethoven was not Black nor was he African. Spurious conjecture does not belong on this page.
[[Lochdale|Lochdale]
Jugbo and others obviously don't believe Hertz, Fischer, Thayer or Bekker. I would welcome the writings of other Beethoven contemporaries discribing his appearrance. Of course he/she might have to go some to find someone closer to Beethoven than Fischer. He/she assumes that being tanned is on parallel with a "blackish brown complexion" as written by Fischer. You have Caucasion people around the world that spend enormous amounts of time in the summer sun (Naked) as well as in tanning booths who do not develope blackish brown complexions. Not to mention the caucasion people who live in Africa who still look like tanned caucasions after living and walking in more sun than Germans ever see in their lifetime. I guess that we are to suppose that Fischer's comments were not made in the winter? If my comments are to be speculative and dubious based on the writings of Beethovens friend, then Jugbos comments deserve the same discredit for his lack of intimate associate written references. Everyone reading this article knows several people of German decent. I dare say that none of them have a blackish brown complexion unless they have someone in their lineage with a blackish brown complexion. (Mendel's Law). At best, if he/she considers the references that I used as none proof, then I would think that his/her position would be neutral since he/she also offers no opposing proof. Saying that he walked in the sun often as a justification of his blackish brown complexion (thinking that the rest of the world doesn't know the difference) is intellectually offensive. To say that my comments are racist when (with the exeception of J.A. Rogers' research) they are based solely on the writings of Beethovens friends and noted authorities (none of whom are black) is unfair. Jugbo you should think deeply about where the racism may truly be. Is it true that I am trying to make Beethoven black, or is it more true that Jugbo and others can't bear the thought that he might not have been causcasion? Tom 01/06/06
Jugbo I agree with you on the symbolic references of skin color amongst people of European decent. I've even known Black Irish people with an olive complexion who did not look black at all in the modern sense. So I accept your comments on the symbolic meanings of these coloristic comments in many cases. I also agree with you that Beethoven's contributions belong to Europe as ours surely belong to America. I don't think that thats what we're dealing with here. What you fail to address is Thayer's comment. You said earlier that you believed Thayer, so let's examine his comment. Thayer said that "Beethoven had even more of the Moor in his features than his master Haydn" (Bethoven Vol. 1. p 146). Here Thayer describes not just a skin color, but a race of people. The Moors. Beethoven was rightfully described as a black Spaniard given the ethnic mixing between Moors and Spaniards dating as far back as the 8th century. I agree with your statement that Spaniards are the darkess Europeans. They are the darkess Europeans because of their mixing with the Moors. Was your Mediterranean-looking Grandfather ever mistaken for someone of Morrish decent? Thayer's comment removes Beethoven's appearance from both the conceptual and social coloristic nicknames of the period. Let's condense the comments of Bekker, Fischer, Thayer and Hertz, and put them all together. Blackish brown complexion, Wide thick lipped mouth, Short thick nose and Moorish appearance. I believe that these descriptions go beyond the socially conceptual and lend more to the actual description of the man. I prefer not to lend social slant to these descriptions of Beethoven, but to take these comments at face value. Had you considered that there were actually people living in Europe (then and now) that these comments of color would actually apply to accurately? Had you considered that any of them would be musically gifted? There are some people who are called black who actually are black and/or mixed with it. I don't believe that Beethoven was a pure blood African, but he had at least as much African in him as Halle Berry. Tom 01/14/06
Jugbo you are a studied person and discount that the Moors were black. Not fair. To say that they were not black is a most recent practice. Their make up seems to have been Black Arab, Berber and West African. Go to http://herso.freeservers.com/moors.html and scroll down three images to the picture of the moorish chief Eduard Charlemont and tell me what you think he is. His picture also hangs in the Philadelphia Museum of Art. Of course you may consider this picture as fabricated as I think the images of Beethoven. Also for africans in early Europe, (and this is case sensitive)go to http//www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Classroom/9912/africanseurope.html Pushkin, whom you are familiar with is at the end of this article, but there's much that takes place before that. Tom 01/15/06
The question can easily be resolved by looking at physical evidence. Beethoven's hair - which has been preserved - is obviously that of a white person.
Here the final evaluation from an expert on the matter: Beethoven was an Alpinid (mean IQ ~97,occurance from France to Siberian Russia, cyclothymous Celtic race, significantly more feminine than the leptomorphic Nordid race ) with some Negriform features as a flat, round nose not connected to the Negrids genetically. As the Moors were no Negrids,too , but Aethiopid Europids (just as the Pharaohs), some of their genes would not have changed Beethoven's belonging to the Alpinid race. As the Alpinid race is one of the most intelligent races of all 37 races and additionally is quite numerous in contrast to the endangered Nordid race, a Beethoven was most likley to occur in the Alpinid subrace having access to the central European culture facilities (Vienna).Envious negros (see John Randal Baker, Race ,1974, Oxford University Press, for the correct use of the term Negro as a non-offensive ethnic term) created the "Negro Beethoven "campaign. 80.138.193.152 02:55, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
A few other points:
- The moors weren't black.
- A quote from a writer isn't scientific evidence in support of anything ( especially one who never even saw Beethoven). Hearsay is the least impressive evidence in support of anything.
- There is no legitimate historical interest in this discussion: the people promoting the viewpoint that Beethoven was black are neither historians nor scientists, but are members of a political movement known as "Afro-centrism" (which claims that all of recorded history involves a conspiracy of silence against black people's achievments).-- Johan77
A response to everything you've said here has already been produced above (or below). However, two brief emphases most pertinent to what you've just claimed:
If every time a marginal party claimed something implausible and demanded refutation, and mainstream academia reacted, do you think any acquisition of knowledge would occur as progressively as it should? No serious professional scholar is going to try to prove that Beethoven was white, because they understand that obviously tendentious claims like this one shouldn't be allowed to divert time and energy and other resources away from more worthy and consequential pursuits. A note on the German/Moorish issue: Beethoven was German because his ancestors and his ethnicity were (in the liberal sense of Germanic, as he was also of Belgian extraction); his appearance was described as "Moorish". Also worthy of emphasis is the fact that this was a mere comparison. He was also described as a "Spaniard", but that doesn't mean that he was one (or that he could "EASILY" have been one) simply because someone suggested it. Review my arguments. There's no credible reason to believe that he was negroid. -- Jugbo 19:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
The current edition of the section on Beethoven's race is an absolute disgrace. It's referential basis - a German race study from 1914 - is itself laughable. But even putting aside its blatantly rascist (and sexist - that one slips in too) agenda, the actual argument leaves something to be desired. It starts from the premiss that Beethoven was an “Alpinid”, which we are told means Celtic. We are then given a second premiss - namely that Alpinids are not “Negrids”. Ergo, syllogistic form leads us to the conclusion that Beethoven was not a “Negrid”. That is the central argument, although our good annalist goes so far as to adorn it with an analysis of the racial constitution of "the Moors" (does the adjective "Moorish" actually occur here?). Firstly now, (let's get this set out nice and clear so that we can all follow it) the initial premiss simply asserts what is at issue. Secondly the racial divisions, of which Negrid and Armenid are two, are too copious (I forget exactly how many) to allow for any strict boundary between seperate "races". That is, the "if Armenid then not Negrid" premiss just might not be as watertight as it intially appeared to be. Indeed, I would venture to suggest that these classifications from the (otherwise, I am sure, seminal) 1914 study are in fact arbitrary, informed by prejudice, and utterly without merit. Our esteemed chronicler's assurance that this literature has gained some favourable reception in the United States deos more harm to the reputation of that country than it adds to the reputation of the study. Finally, one might indeed enquire “what on earth is a Negrid?! An Alpinid?! Mediterannid-Aethiopid-Armenid???!!!” This article should be closed from gereral editing if this kind of trite, idiotic, bigoted drivel continues to appear.
-- Johan77
According to the British Museum, Oxford University and Egyptologist scholar Stanley Lane-Poole, author of "Moors in Spain" Poole proves that Moors were African and of Ethiopic and Berber origin and corrects the previously wrong notion that they were the slaves of the European Moors who then adopted the customs and language of their former masters. Find this in "Moors" here in Wikipedia.
Jugbo how could you send these readers to the Moors page here in Wikipedia when right there in the first paragraph it says The Moors were mainly comprised of Ethiopians, West Africans, Sub Saharan Africans, Arabs and Berbers? Beats me. Another myth bites the dust. Tom 06/12/06
History doesn't change Jugbo. I'm sure that you would change the Moors page if you could so that it would reflect the things that you've written above, as well as save you some embarrassment. However you will never remove from the earth what really happened. Myths will come and go, but the truth will always resurface. Forever. With the truth of the Moors ethnicity being clear (according to Wikipedia) we can now revisit Beethoven's contemporaries describing him as one. Or we can once again return to modern hypothesis. It's a matter of who you're going to believe. The people who knew and described him or those who never met the man. Tom 07/24/06
I see that the Moor page has been changed. And it is written that their appearance ran the distance between very dark and very light. It states that they were a diverse lot. It appears that there was a lot of intermingling between the races, which is normal even today.
Jugbo whether I'm correct or not about my belief in Beethovens ethnicity doesn't make me a racist. The most that I can be is incorrect. In many of the earlier writings above you've attacked me racially without knowing what race I am. You assume that I'm black because of the stance that I take commensurate with what was written by Beethovens contemporaries. You would also have everyone believe that when the Berbers and the Arabs entered North Africa, (the key word being "enter"), that it was theretofore an uninhabited land. There is clear archeological evidence of a dark skinned african People in North Africa predating the Berbers by centuries. There is also clear evidence of a dark skinned wooly haired Arab people existing then and even today. Archeology has shown that the farther back history goes, the darker the population of these lands get. These are not black archeological reports I might add. The Berbers are modern history by comparison. The slaves of the Moors often looked like their slave masters. Recently Wikipedias stance on the Moors ethnicity didn't change to suit my beliefs, it changed to suit yours. A change I suspect, that you had something to do with. Whether you did or not, this is a discredit to Wikipedia. I lend no more credibility to your genetic reports than I do to the changes of the Moors page. But to your constant accusations of me being a racist, "I think thou protest too much". It is also noticed by all readers that you are the catalyst for the racist accusations listed herein and above. Behavior does not lie. Tom 08/02/06
This is silly, I'm out. Tom 08/26/06
Anyone who thinks that the Moors of North Africa were untouched ethnically by Africans probably thinks that Europeons are ethnically untouched by native Americans. How can anyone say that a people declared of Arab and Berber decent are white when the Arabs themselves are not white. Even if the Moors were white with black slaves, they mated with those slaves like all slave owners did. The Moors were mutts. Much of their period art depicts them as a mixed people. Amongst their Arab ranks were many valiant dark skinned wooly haired warriors. In many cases slave and slave owner looked alike and in many cases they did not.
I must say, when I first saw the header for this section, I expected a joke of somewhat questionable punchlinery, not a discourse on how Beethoven's black blood manifested itself in his jungle rhythms - that type of argument smacks not only of ignorance and idiocy, but barely-veiled racism. I am of strong Italian descent, but this does not lend to me the genetic ability to make delicious spaghetti sauce. The presence of "negroid" features, quoted of by supposed Beethovenian contemporaries, referenced from a page that deals with little more than conspiracy theory, shows not only a complete lack of common sense, scholarly thinking, and taste, but a complete disregard for the integrity of Wikipedia as an online encyclopedia, and for the Wikipedia community as a whole. -- Milton 06:31, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I removed the "born December 16" which was added by an anonymous editor. As far as I know, his exact birth date is not known with certainty, but inferred from the usual custom at the time of baptising infants a day or two after birth. The New Grove gives no birthdate; Slonimsky gives "December 15 or 16." At any rate this issue is covered in the full life and work article. I'm open to alternative opinions, including putting the date back if others feel it is sufficiently well established, or if there is a good source on his birthdate I don't know about. Antandrus 01:42, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
--
Hi! good point
I know people have saved locks of Beethoven's hair, etc. Has anyone ever attributed any miracles to these relics? I've seen [ http://www.robert.to/beetweep/ ] this web site, but I don't know if its for real or not.
I reverted:
"As a monolith of the music of his era, his legacy cast a wide shadow on those that succeeded him; he has left an indelible mark on the tradition of European classical music."
Editor Bleh Fu actually expressed a qualm about this edit when offering it, i.e. that it might be a bit "flowery". I think this intuition is dead on, and would like to give a reason in support: most Wikipedia readers go to our encyclopedia to get facts, not flowery prose. If you agree with me (and I hope you do) that we write the Wikipedia for our readers and not for ourselves, than that's a good reason to go for a "just the facts" approach and keep the prose non-distracting. Thanks for listening. Opus33 16:07, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've added some language on reputation, it isn't the most felicitous, but I think that the fact beneath the prose should be there: that Beethoven did indeed cast a long shadow. Stirling Newberry 16:52, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I was trying to avoid peacock terms in the description; there should definitely be an elaboration on *why* Beethoven is considered the greatest of composers, even if it is in twelve words or less. Regarding "just the facts", is is already a grey area once we use expressions like "is widely regarded as". I think Stirling's edit is good, and should stand. -- bleh fu talk fu 21:23, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)
"His reputation and genius have inspired— and in many cases intimidated— ensuing generations of composers, musicians, and audiences." Intimidated? Clarityfiend 09:37, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Concerning the "almost certainly" birth date, which I also reverted, please see the discussion from earlier in this forum--we've gone through this one several times already. I can't see any justification for including it unless the anonymous contributor can cite solid evidence from scholarly literature--what is actually known about 18th century baptismal practices in this part of Germany? In the absence of such documentation, we should stick to the facts.
Opus33 16:07, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Agreed, no one has found any sources since the last time. Stirling Newberry 16:25, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think this is a good article: a sensible length, with many useful links for those wanting detail. I have lightly edited all of it, without altering much at all in the content. I respect people's well-researched efforts, and feel little need to supplement them. Punctuation was often faulty, and there was some inconsistency in capitalisation. At a couple of points I felt the need to fix the wording, so that the point being made would be easier to grasp without the distraction of grammatical or stylistic problems. Please weigh these carefully if you intend to revert anything: especially, if you make a well-considered and well-explained alteration or reversion in wording, take care not to introduce or re-introduce bad punctuation and the like. (I would welcome comments.) -- Noetica 02:40, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I would like to delete the section on "Beethoven as Fictional Character". Who else agrees with me? Whenever someone tries to delete it, the deletion gets reverted. An encyclopedia article on the greatest composer who ever lived (debatable, of course) should not have some silliness about a clone of Beethoven in an anime novel. Pfalstad 03:57, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I know Beethoven was born into a Roman Catholic family, and in my view he wrote some of the greatest devotional music. However I am not clear that this qualifies him for consideration as a R.C.; he probably does not qualify through personal faith, Haydn considered him an atheist (see Ludwig van Beethoven's religious beliefs) and I remain unconvinced that his output is notably R.C. I notice that currently Madonna and Jenny McCarthy are also in the category, so I'm really not clear what the criteria are. I have respectfully removed the Roman Catholic artists category pending discussion. Anyone else have a view? -- RobertG ♬ talk 08:30, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Would you distinguish between a practicing vs. non-practicing Jew, as opposed to a practicing vs. non-practicing Catholic? Being Jewish carries an obvious religious connotation, and yet a number of famous Jews have been agnostics or atheists. Does that make them any less Jewish? Wahkeenah 11:37, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I might argue that the first and best Roman Catholic "artist" was the guy that painted the Sistine Chapel. :) Here's another angle to look at, which might or might not help: You often hear about someone being labeled a "Jewish comedian". Now, does that mean the comedian is Jewish and also tells primarily jokes that center on Judaism? Or does it mean he happens to be Jewish but tells jokes of all kinds? If it's the latter, then Myron Cohen was a lot more of a "Jewish comedian" than was Jacob Cohen (a.k.a. Rodney Dangerfield). If it's the former, they both qualify. Wahkeenah 17:26, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If Brooke Shields can be categorized a "Roman Catholic artist", I don't see why Beethoven shouldn't be. Wahkeenah 18:22, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
They kept saying Bach, Bach, Bach... I must be 6 yrs old. -- Lord Voldemort (Dark Mark) 19:06, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Awesome. You're my new idol. :) I assume you've heard what happened when they exhumed him? Wahkeenah 23:15, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Truly hilarious though needed explaining. I will remember that for my fav, Schubert. Still not quite sure why Beethoven shouldn't have been getting rid of his dogs not his chickens, SqueakBox 15:47, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
Well I was singing that old classic perennial favourite Old Macdonald had a farm but I couldn't remember what the chickens said, SqueakBox 15:54, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
It may be more of an English song. I love singing it but my wife gets me to shut up if she is around. She also wishes the great composers were decomposing so she didn't have to put up with the Missa Solemnis and others favourites of mine, SqueakBox 16:20, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
Hey, it could still be "bark"... if the dog spoke with a Bostonian accent, yes? Meanwhile, back here with the chickens, I wonder if you've ever heard Ray Stevens' version of In the Mood done by "The Henhouse Five"? Wahkeenah 16:28, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
The article at present has the following interesting sentence at the end of the Life & Work chapter (italics mine):
To quote Graham Chapman: "What?" -- Klehti 12:26, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Is his name "Van Beethoven" or "Von Beethoven" or maybe even simply "Beethoven"? Perhaps the article could say something about this. -- MarSch 12:18, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
I discovered that the template Template:Ludwig van Beethoven was listed on WP:TFD about a week ago. It says on the top of the TFD page to "give notice of its proposed deletion at relevant talk pages." As the most relevant talk page, I'm helpfully giving notice here now. -- RobertG ♬ talk 14:51, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
I've added a section nearly at the end. Yeah, the Beethoven Peninsula. There are many other places and things named after the Great Man. The section can grow some, but then should probably be spun off into Beethoven eponyms. -- FourthAve 09:16, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I've edited this section that used to include a huge number of links to various personal/commercial sites. The Beethoven-Haus website is an impressively thorough and encyclopedic repository of all things eBeethoven, and is very professionaly done. I think it should satisfy most needs; I've also included the links to source material such as the CBC report and the page on the lock of hair. Regards enceph alon 11:07, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
This section seems rather abruptly out of place in this article, which is a general overview of the chap. It seems to me that it will be best placed in an article about his works and writings, but that's a list. Perhaps Life and Works? I'll move it there soon if there are no better suggestions. Thanks guys. enceph alon 16:00, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
I removed Beethoven from the "Dutch people" category - there's no mention of anything Dutch in the article. Did the "van" in his name confuse someone? He was not a native of Vienna - he was born in Bonn. I tightened the categorisation from "German people" to "German composers". I removed categorisation in "Roman Catholics" as per Category talk:Roman Catholics. I also question his categorisation as a "pop icon". Is he? Or is this someone's opinion? I'm afraid I am unhip, and don't really understand exactly what a pop icon is, but when I see Buddha, Britney Spears and Madonna also in that category I worry. Anyone else have a view? -- RobertG ♬ talk 12:20, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to see someone with the know-how update the article on Beethoven's childhood and youth. There is very little mention of this.
Ludwig's Childhood:
Ludwig van Beethoven suffered a tragic childhood. His father was an alcoholic and often abused him. Johann would force Ludwig to practice all of the time, and when Beethoven would make a mistake, he would slam the piano cover on his knuckles and make him play it over again. Moreover, if Beethoven would play a piece perfectly, his father would not provide any positive reinforcement. Often times, Johann would stay out late drinking with his buddies, and then bring them home at one o'clock in the morning to listen to little Ludwig play. Of course a little boy of Beethoven's age would be asleep at this hour of the night, but that didn't stop Johann. He would slap little Ludwig in the head to get him up, and make Ludwig play for all of his drunken buddies. They all would critique his playing, and correct him with force if he messed up. Because Beethoven was so poorly treated by his father he developed a close relationship with his mother. She died when Beethoven was a teenager, this devastated Ludwig. Because Johann was increasingly becoming worse and worse with his drinking, he had lost his job as a tenor at the Electoral court. Beethoven, realizing that he now had to support himself and his brothers, sought work, and by 1782 he served as deputy organist when Christian Neefe (Court Organist) took leave. By this time, Beethoven was already composing works and was considered to be a piano virtuoso, and the next year, Ludwig was hired as orchestral harpsichordist at the court. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.2.71.150 ( talk • contribs) .
Hi User:82.181.158.247, with respect to the above claim in the intro, I think it's more in keeping with the NPOV of an international encyclopedia that it be qualified. Beethoven was possibly the finest composer of music in the Western tradition, true; however
Thus, my compromise wording. I don't think the sentence "He was a major musical figure in the transitional period between the Classical and Romantic eras, and is widely regarded as one of the greatest composers in history" does serious violence to Beethoven's reputation and is, all things considered, probably the fairest way of putting it. However, it does retain the problem described in WP:WEASEL; a quote from a suitably weighty authority may be an improvement. Kind regards encephalon 00:32, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
"widely regarded as" follows with the qualifier "one of the greatest..." which allows the sentence to retain neutrality. No person would seriously dispute that Beethoven has a mammoth reputation surpassing other composers (except for maybe Mozart), so "widely regarded" is an accurate description. No one would disagree that "Hitler is widely regarded as one of the most hated figures in history", whether one agrees with that comment or not. Taco325i 02:08, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi. My main point was that the sentence had bad grammar (at least in my browser it read: "regarded as one the greatest composers"). I think it is equally true that he is widely regarded as THE greatest composer of all time, but one could qualify this as well. At its present state, there is no indication that his reputation is greater than e.g. Schubert's. Could we use something like "widely regarded as one of the greatest composers in history, and by many as the greatest composer of all time" in order to clarify the matter? -- 82.181.158.247 09:20, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
The following previously existed as part of the article body:
BEETHOVEN THE NEGRO?
Another continuing controversy surrounding Beethoven is whether he was a "white man" or a "black man". What specifically is being referenced, is the true identity of Ludwig van Beethoven, considered Europe’s greatest classical music composer. Directly, Beethoven was a black man. Specifically, his mother was a Moor, that group of Muslim Africans who conquered parts of Europe--making Spain their capital--for some 800 years.
In order to make such a substantial statement, presentation of verifiable evidence is compulsory. Let's start with what some of Beethoven's contemporaries and biographers say about his appearance. Frau Fisher, a close friend of Beethoven, described him with “blackish-brown complexion.” Frederick Hertz, German anthropologist, used these terms to describe him: “Negroid traits, dark skin, flat, thick nose.”
Emil Ludwig, in his book “Beethoven,” says: “His face reveals no trace of the German. He was so dark that people dubbed him Spagnol [dark-skinned].” Fanny Giannatasio del Rio, in her book “An Unrequited Love: An Episode in the Life of Beethoven,” wrote “His somewhat flat broad nose and rather wide mouth, his small piercing eyes and swarthy [dark] complexion, pockmarked into the bargain, gave him a strong resemblance to a mulatto.” C. Czerny stated, “His beard--he had not shaved for several days--made the lower part of his already brown face still darker.”
Following are one word descriptions of Beethoven from various writers: Grillparzer, “dark” Bettina von Armin, “brown” Schindler, “red and brown” Rellstab, “brownish” Gelinek, “short, dark.”
The above text, apart from leaving something to be desired stylistically, is not, I think, appropriate for inclusion in the encyclopedia article on Beethoven. First, it states a theory widely held to be... less than creditable by the international academic community. Second, it supports the theory entirely by (thin) circumstantial and hearsay evidence, with no direct evidence supporting any of the claims and no independent corroborations. Much of the evidence consists of double-hearsay (i.e., a book claiming to say what someone else claimed to say about Beethoven), and most of that is to the effect that Beethoven had darker skin and/or non-"Germanic" features. Aside from the evidentiary flimsiness, it simply does not follow logically that because Beethoven had dark skin, he was therefore a "negro." Additionally, the information about his mother's ethnicity is totally unsubstantiated. Third, the above does not define terms with sufficient rigor: what constitutes a "black man" as opposed to a "white man" for the purposes of this theory? What criteria must be met? How must they be met?
Thus, in light of the weakness of the argument, and the overwhelming presumption of both the academic community and the public at large that Beethoven was Caucasian, I don't see why this argument warrants an entire section. Perhaps a short mention might be warranted, but even then it would need to be so heavily caveated that it probably doesn't make sense. RiseAbove 06:33, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
--- Well if you are so unsure that Beethoven was black then how can you be so sure he was white. You provide no evidence or proof. There is no book describing him as a white man or flemish or anything of such.
No need. We know Germany and Austria were countries where the great majority of people were white in that time. Therefore if he had been black it would have evoked interest whereas him being white evoked no interest whatsoever, so this is somnething we do NOT need to source, SqueakBox 02:32, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't necessarily agree that Beethoven was black at all and it probably should be the one that has to be proven. However at the same time we have no proof that Beethoven was any specific ethnic group or that he was even a european ethnic group. For all we know he could have been gypsy or jewish or chinese(probably not)but if people are going to state he is slavic and flemish they better give some proof. —This unsigned comment was added by Dualldual ( talk • contribs) .
It appears that none of the contributions on Beethoven's negroid appearance are considered relevant by modern mainstream historians. There are several writers mentioned above that have listed in well respected literature that Beethoven had the appearance of a mulatto with one saying that he had no German features at all. Do Mainstream historians attack Beethoven's contemporaries directly. Are their writings considered false. Apparently. Mainstream historians who discount or dillute the writings of Grillparzer, Bettina Von Armin, Schindler, Ludwig, Hertz or Beethoven's close friend Frau Fisher cannot in any way be considered an authority on Beethoven. Beethoven has to be proven to be different than these writers have described him, not vice versa. Modern mainstream historical accounts that differ from these original writings pale in comparison to these writings. Who is to be believed, modern historians or Beethovens contemporaries? Jugbo and Squeakbox have stated that if Beethoven was negroid in appearance that surely it would have been mentioned. But that's exactly what Beethoven's contemporaries did. MENTION IT. Several of them wrote about it in world respected literature. Beethoven's contemporaries are mainstream and modern historians who discredit what they wrote are the renegades. Try as they may, modern historians will never be able to remove these original writings from the pages of history. Tom 15 April 2006 (UTC)
====Paper never refused ink. A lot of stuff published in standard sources is incorrect.
Yeah, like those works that argue that he was black. -- Jugbo 02:11, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
The article currently states "If we consider the Romantic movement as an aesthetic epoch in literature and the arts generally, Beethoven sits squarely in the first half along with literary Romantics such as the German poets Goethe and Schiller". From my limited understanding of the history of German literature, neither Goethe or Schiller are considered to be part of the Romantic movement, and therefore this statement is incorrect. Jeremy J. Shapiro 21:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I prefer to discuss this rather than revert it. I changed "Beethoven was one of the most important figures" to "Beethoven was an important figure" because the former really means the latter but just uses excess verbiage. If you look at a standard English style book, such as Strunk and White, etc., they tell you to avoid the expression "one of the most" because it is the equivalent of what on Wikipedia is called a weasel word. Either say something is the most important x, or say that it's an important x, but saying "one of the most important" x doesn't really say much. Jeremy J. Shapiro 18:53, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Allegedly, after a critic complained of his 3d Symphony that nobody'd listen to a 40min symphony, he wrote a 90min one... Trekphiler 08:46, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
There is this really cool scene in leon the professional where the crazy police cheif guy breaks into the guy's apartment and kills his entire family to the music of beethoven. There is this quote - "I like these calm little moments before the storm; it reminds me of beethoven" Then he kicks down the door and murders the entire family with beethoven's music in the background. At the end he corners the guy that is holding out on him and says "you don't like beethoven - you don't know what you're missing" then he kills him.
I love this song as it is so powerfull and fits the scene so perfectly. However, it is not listed in the credits and I can not find it anywhere. Has anyone that has seen this movie recognize it?-- God of War 07:15, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Don't delete talk page comments unless they are extremely offensive (or possibly completely off topic). See Wikipedia:Talk page, and Wikipedia:Delete personal attacks. Sam Spade 15:55, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Is there some reason User:Pavel Vozenilek is deleting questions? [31]-- God_of War 07:49, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
It is claimed that Für Elise is a bagatelle. I would agree but only in the most generic sense. It was certainly not titled "bagatelle" by Beethoven, and does not appear in the Urtext complete edition of the Bagatelles. JackofOz 22:20, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Curiouser and curiouser.
I guess that without the autograph we'll never really know what Beethoven called it. It seems the name "bagatelle" has become associated with it, even if it's not accepted by everyone. On balance, I'm happy to leave the text stand. Thanks folks. JackofOz 14:06, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to offer an opinion about the two portraits of Beethoven that are competing here.
One of the rivals is a gray-toned portrait, quite Romantic in character, painted by Carl Jäger. It was originally uploaded by Chris K, and has been amplified and defended by Janderk. It looks like this: [32], and shows a person who could be considered conventionally very handsome.
Competing with the Jäger portrait is a portrait posted by Qcanfixit and described as follows:
It looks like this: [33], and shows a somewhat funny-looking guy.
The "handsome" Jäger portrait is more familiar to the general public, I suspect.
Here is some further background. If you follow the links from the Jäger portrait, you'll find that Carl Jäger was born in 1833, six years after Beethoven died. Moreover, I've read in biographical material that Beethoven was not conventionally handsome, and I've also read that, following Beethoven's death, his image was idealized and Romanticized throughout the rest of the nineteenth century. (Sorry no reference sources on these two points, but I can look them up for you if you insist.)
With this in mind, I propose that we should post the Hofel portrait, that is, the "ugly" one. This is because we are supposed to be a scholarly work, and therefore should post the portrait that has the best chance of being realistic--even if it is not the portrait that people are most familiar with. The over-handsome, Romanticized portrait by Jäger might be work keeping, too--but only as an illustration of what the later 19th century thought about Beethoven.
Please note that a very similar discussion has taken place before (posted here) concerning rival portraits of Mozart. In this case, the from-composer's-lifetime, most-likely-to-be-accurate portrait did win out in the end. So I propose we follow precedent, and do the same for the Beethoven portrait.
Thanks for listening, Opus33 23:05, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
The Jäger portrait was painted after the composer's death. Do you think Jäger could have painted an accurate picture of Beethoven? I think not. I would remove that portrait! I suggest this 1815 Mähler portrait [ [36]] or this Stieler one [ [37]]-- Stratford15 01:58, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
why don't you accept his real name "van" Beethoven in this article?
Surely that is not the way to say this? Style-wise I mean. It's vague and not encyclopedic. I would replace it by simply "Flemish". After the separation of the northern and southern Netherlands, I think Dutch would mean from the Northern Netherlands. Flemish is not very correct either since his father was from Brabant, but it seems Flemish is generally used to indicate this region too. Considering the quality of the article I hesitate to change this. Any reactions? Piet 15:26, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Is the current Ode To Joy media sample really the best we can do? When I downloaded it I was expecting the full ochestral impact, the rousing music that makes you want to go up to a complete stranger and hug them and then punch the air with a triumphant yell of solidarity! YEAH!! But all I got was a piano solo walking rather sedately across the main tune. It's supposed to be Ode To Joy not Ode To Insomnia. I don't mean any disrepect to whomever upoloaded this version, I mean OK it does go over the basic tune for those who don't know it. But the file for the first movement of his Fifth goes on for 7.5 minutes, surely we can do the same for Ode To Joy? -Stenun, 30 January, around half-eightish on a cold winter's evening
It seems to me that the short section on Beethoven's Legacy is biased and doesn't add much to this article. Ernest Ansermet was a highly regarded conductor and his Les Fondements de la Musique dans la Conscience Humaine was one of the first major books on the phenomenology of music. However, it also seems to be highly idiosyncratic and unrepresentative of generally accepted views. (See Otto Karolyi's Review in The Musical Times Vol. 106, No. 1464 (Feb. 1965), pp. 116-117, for example.) I haven't gotten my hands on a copy of it but, judging from the quotes I've read from the book, Ansermet's position involves defending the "natural laws" of tonal music (with their associations of spirituality, ethics, and freedom) against twelve-tone, serial composition. (See comments on the book in the Wikipedia article on Ernest Ansermet as well.) The phrase "incomprehensible modern atonal musical "language"" is hardly neutral and, moreover, doesn't say anything about Beethoven: it's merely a cheap (and unsupported) shot at Schoenberg. If by "Beethoven's legacy", we mean "what people think of Beethoven's importance today", then we are opening up a vast field which ought to include references to multiple, significant viewpoints, for example Adorno's take on the relationship between Beethoven and Hegel. As it stands, though, I think Beethoven's musical legacy is already well represented by the article on his musical style and innovations. My view is that the current paragraph on Beethoven's legacy should either be moved to the page on Ansermet (if it forms a significant part of his philosophy) or deleted. What does everyone else think? JonathanDS 10:05, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
To move them , doesn't make the statements more wrong or right.They are very pertinent, especially because Beethoven's importance has been downplayed significantly since 1945 massively ("Entmythisierung") due to political reasons.Why have those people done that ? Some well-known spin doctors who control musicology wordlwide since 1945 have done it within the Boasian multiculturalism and the deceptive leftist Frankfurt school (see e.g. Kevin MacDonald, "The culture of critique,2002, essentially right despite of minor slips). 80.138.193.56 00:29, 2 February 2006 (UTC) .I will never stop to restore the section,please save your time and nerves. I know you do this with good intentions.But please get more informed first before you do harm to a good article. 80.138.193.56 00:32, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Never is a long time and there are editors with a much longer track record than yourself, SqueakBox 00:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Never is a short time if someone has a lot of conform disciples having diciples again who are eager to do this. 80.138.193.56 00:48, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
You've only been editing 24 hours. Why not sign into an account and become anonymous,
SqueakBox
00:51, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Is Derrida's deconstructionism your guide in formulating semantically paradox sentences (;-)) ? 80.138.193.56 00:54, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Nope. Either you are using an anonymizer or I can tell which city you are in,
SqueakBox
00:58, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Are you from the Tscheka ? I can tell you something new about Beethoven only.As you have nothing to do with Beethoven, please go back to the anthropological topics and don't troll around. 80.138.192.206 02:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Beethoven is unique in the most forceful expression of the masculine hero and his struggle., despite Mozart's universality and Bach's polyphonic compositorical skills and Schönberg's being a "titan"(?). For the leftists is :Beethoven=Bushmen music (Sanids)=Schönberg's atonality.
If you want to make a case for Beethoven's importance, just use a NPOV. As for myself, I agree with Makemi that at my conservatory it's taught that Beethoven's influence on future music was more important than any other composer's, and there is hardly need to argue that he is important. However, for encyclopedic purposes, it would be good to write something in this article about Beethoven's influence, which seems rather lacking. - Sesquialtera II 20:53, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Beethoven is widely regarded as one of history's supreme composers who produced notable works even after he completely lost his hearing.
is there a lot of competition for supreme composers that lost their hearing? :) It's not quite that bad, since it doesn't say "they lost their hearing", but I'll remove the ambiguity. - Sesquialtera II 20:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I only would like to have Ansermet's opinion included, no matter if someone believes in it or not . You are free to add other evaluations, I will delete not a single word of it as I have never done. As Ansermet was an important figure, I do not understand why his opinion which was clearly said to be his cannot be included here.Do you maybe fear Ansermet's opinion which is clearly within the spectrum of serious musicology ? 80.138.192.206 22:01, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Ansermet is an important music philosopher, I reverted it as I have read not one single serious statement of yours about it. 80.138.172.139 23:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
We are not disputing that Ansermet is an important music philosopher. I at least am disputing that his views on Beethoven are or should be the last word on the subject. Beethoven's "legacy" is a huge topic, and in my opinion it is a disservice to it to have the views of just one person as the basis of the whole thing. Also, it is completely unneccesary for there to be a denigration of other composers in order to make the point that Beethoven was great. Prove that he was great by positives, not by disrespecting other composers. Finally, just because you disagree with our arguments does not mean that they are not serious. You have not responded to anyone's comments specifically. Makemi 00:15, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Please feel free to add evaluations by others,I will not change a single word, but there is no need to exclude Ansermet.The deletion of the mere headline with the "under construction sign" shows me, that you want to avoid evaluations at all ,according to your leftists Boasian multicultural ideology .Do you really think , only sports achievements can be compared ? Maybe there is a big portion of self-deception involved in your case.You are confusing serious evaluations with grumbling. 80.138.172.139 01:32, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
What proof is there of this?
Prove Beethoven was of african or partial black/moor descent make your case and use refernces. No one gives a damn about your opinion.
Prove Beethoven was fully european make your case and use refernces. No one gives a dam about your opinion.
Now, please be civil. -- Stratford15 01:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the media file for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no. 3. As I said in the edit summary, it is only slightly better than a midi file. Staccatos are not used, the dynamic range is not nearly great enough, and to be honest the faster parts sound like nails being scraped on a blackboard. I don't think that's the best way to hear Beethoven, but I've left the file in the article for the sonata to serve as an example. Graham talk 12:26, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I am not the first to have removed the following from the article:
I propose it stays removed because, in my opinion, it is (a) recondite, (b) peripheral, (c) unencyclopedic, (d) unimportant, (e) opinion, (f) boring. Anyone have another opinion? -- RobertG ♬ talk 11:56, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Beethoven's contemporaries thought it worthy to mention his appearance. Apparently their descriptions are unpopular with modern scholars. Rather than have him look like a mulatto as he was described, modern scholars prefer to make him caucasion or faceless instead. The descritions of Grillparzer, Bettina Von Armin, Schindler, Ludwig, Hertz and his close friend Frau Fisher are completely ignored by modern scholars. So much so, that modern scholars would prefer to take the opinion of researchers who never met the man over those who did. Why? Since the writings of Beethoven's contemporaries cannot be erased, and since we have to study his contemporaries to understand Beethoven's life, then let's acknowledge all of their observations about this wonderful man. Tom Apr 2006.
This user also re-added a paragraph on Beethoven's legacy. It looks ok to me on first glance, but I'd appreciate it if people would double check it. Thanks, Mak emi 18:54, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Tom, let it go. Beethoven wasn't black, and we've already discussed these descriptions. --
Jugbo
01:31, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Truth seeking is more important than reaching a consensus despite being a wikipedia principle.Because by consensus , truth seeking should be made possible. Please read the lenghty sources first and judge later, anything else is unscientific. You believe in an ideology developed by Franz Boas single-handedly due to Jewish group interests being harmful to the Western White majority.After reading the sources and additional material (e.g. Kevin B. MacDonald "The Culture of Critique",2002) ,you will see that my edits present reality correctly. Then you can modify my edits and write lenghty comments , but we won't accept a leftist censorship.My disciples and I will never accept that, besides it is un-American (think of what Thomas Jefferson said about the freedom of speech). 80.138.169.47 18:36, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
What's America got to do with Beethoven. He was German, lived in Austria and I wasn't aware of any US connections, so an article about Beethoven should hopefully be European in orientation, ie specifically unAmerican, Ras Billy I 01:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Note: gnetwerker is not consistent (according to e.g Wzhoa533) , he first re-edited our racial pedomorphosis statement explicitly before he denied that he had ever done so.This shows only the leftist helplessness in combining reality with leftist ideology.While I am a decent scientist promoting the natural interests of the authochthonous European people in their homeland, leftist ideologists like gnetwerker are responsible for the decline of the West. Do you deconstructionists really doubt that e.g. Franz Boas had a strong Jewish self-identification and developed multi-culturalism single-handedly ? 80.138.169.47 19:50, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
As a typical leftist American intellectual , you have only an atomized knowledge in a special field (s. e.g. Geoffrey Gorer, "Americans" for this general problemacy) being helpless in 99% of science and all important matters as cosmology, nonexistence of God,anthropology, physics, culture etc. You are unable to acknowledge the following truth while aping the leftist mainstream: 1. Beethoven was an Alpinid , 2. there are about 36 human races/stirpes/taxa etc.
3. race informs culture/music , 4. there are significant statistical differences in intellectual capacity between these taxa. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence, but the lazy (according to your own statement) leftist maybe is a too weak mind (femininity ?) to acknowledge this.
80.138.128.153 02:09, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
You can only make your point because there are 100 more leftist apers helping you.
80.138.128.153
02:12, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
]]
He certainly is trying to promote the idea of Americanism, bizarre in an article about Beethoven. If he is trying to promote the idea of the superiority of the white races he is trying to promote an idea that the humanist Beethoven forcefully rejected, ie that not all men (people) are equal. Whoever heard of Beethoven being a conservative anyway? Ras Billy I 01:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following from the article today:
I don't think it belongs, and even if it does (i.e. if it is true), this kind of detail should go in the satellite article Life and work of Ludwig van Beethoven. To include it we need a cite; I haven't heard this before, but maybe there's some legitimate research on this. At any rate, leaping from a diagnosis of bipolar disorder (not "rare" by a long shot, by the way) to a "you can hear it in Fur Elise and the Fifth Symphony" is original research. I don't think you need to explain dramatic contrast in the work of a famous composer by correlating it with a mental disorder. See Occam's Razor. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 18:42, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I boldly recast introduction. It said almost nothing about his biography, which I think needs at least a sentence or two coverage. I worry that the section on "his most widely recognized compositions" is someone's opinion, or possibly WP:OR - it seems to me to require at least a reference. I do not necessarily disagree with the choice of works listed - but does "recognized" here mean "recognized as Beethoven by the man on the Clapham omnibus", or does it mean "the man on the Clapham omnibus would be able to name the work while listening to it", or does it mean "your average keen western-classical-music lover would recognize the work"? If the first meaning is intended then a case could probably be made for adding the Triple Concerto, the last movement of the Waldstein, bits of the Septet, the Spring sonata, the fourth Piano Concerto, and bits of the Archduke trio, but if the last meaning is intended then most of us who are interested would probably be able to name at least a third of his opus from hearing a fragment of each piece anyway, and we would probably recognise as Beethoven much more. I think the editors of this article mostly probably fall into this last category, and are therefore the last people who should be expressing opinions on "what people recognize". What do others think? -- RobertG ♬ talk 09:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
An editor has removed the {{ fact}} template from the "most widely recognised compositions" paragraph. I have already outlined my concerns above. Can we reach a consensus on, firstly, recognised by whom, and secondly what works to list. Even given that we can come to agreement, I still worry that without WP:V it is WP:OR. -- RobertG ♬ talk 09:20, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems as if there is no discussion on the topic but there should be some to get the issue resolved. People who claim Beethoven of Slavic and other European origins provided no sources to substantiate their claims. From a non-bias point of view I would have to say that as it stands more evidence(using sources not simply opinion) has been provided in this discussion page to support that Beethoven was moor or such. The people who claim Beethoven was Flemish or Slavic have not provided one source which leads me to believe one of two things. You are pulling it out of your ass. You are simply asserting Beethoven is not moor because you assume if he is from Europe he must be a European, which is an unfair assumption to make and is based on your opnion not historical fact. I don't give a dam what race he is but I will delete any mention of Beethoven origins that does not provide a source because no one here has ever talked to Beethoven and asked him personally.
There is evidence Ronald Reagan and Queen Elizabeth and Pablo Picasso and George Bernard Shaw were all white. There is also no evidence they are moors. If someone where to claim Queen Elizabeth as a moor I would ask for proof, like how I ask for proof from both sides for Beethoven, there is no evidence, no books, no documentary to suggest that Elizabeth is moor. On top of that if people who argued that Elizabeth was moor, simply asserted her moorness, and refuted all of the proofs that she was white simply because they had none that shows she was moor, then I would have no choice but to conclude that she was white. Apply that to Beethoven and I have no choice except to accept that he was moor. There has been not one ounce of proof, even questionable white supremcist website proof, google searches, that have suggested Beethoven was white. I'm all open to any evidence of it, but there has been none provided. The argument that Beethoven is white is an assertion made based on peoples opnion and no fact(no sources), simply their assumptions that he must be white because he is from Europe. The people who claim the Beethoven is white have provided no proof and say all the books written on the subject that says he is moor, are simply based on heresay of 200 years. Well a book that says Beethoven is moor written by his teacher is alot more convincing than the opnion you just pulled out of your ass.
The research team also said that future DNA analysis might answer lingering questions about Beethoven's ethnicity. As a young man, the dark-complexioned Beethoven sometimes was called "the Moor," and some historians have questioned whether he had African blood. Walsh said his analysis of the hair strands showed "no wrinkles or bends" typical among people of African descent, but that more tests may be conducted.
The uploaded ogg-file is of very low musical quality, and should be deleted.
If Beethoven's late works sound nothing like his Romantic contemporaries (i.e. Weber, Schubert), what do they sound like, works of later Romantic composers? Marcus 19:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
The strains of the Große Fuge, and the periodic silences in the late piano sonatas do not lend Beethoven the 'honour' of sounding like any of the works of later Romantic composers. Seeing as he knew not any of the great Romantic composers that followed his death, this question seems strange, perhaps one should seek to discover how 20th century music has been influenced by Beethoven? Stravinsky's famous quote on the Grosse Fuge springs to mind. an absolutely contemporary piece of music that will be contemporary forever. Gareth E Kegg 01:51, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
It's saddening to see that articles on Britney Spears or Opie and Anthony are considerably longer than Beethoven. Could someone please expand this article?
There's no point in expanding it for the sake of making it longer. There are more facts knowen about Britney Spears et al, I suspect. While many more books (at least books of value) have been written about Beethoven, it's not nessesarly Wikipedia material. Unless you think there are specific areas where info is lacking, I think it should stay as is, rather than adding filler material to make it bigger. — Soupisgoodfood 10:45, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
http://portal.unesco.org/ci/en/ev.php-URL_ID=7073&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html Perhaps this decision by the UNESCO regarding the Ninth Symphony is something important to add on this page--a testament to the universality of his music. - Spartan
RE: Among his most widely-recognized works are his Third (Eroica), Fifth, Sixth (Pastoral) and Ninth (Choral) symphonies (the last containing the "Ode to Joy"), his Piano Concerto No. 5 ("Emperor"), his Missa Solemnis, Wellington's Victory, his opera Leonore, his Violin Concerto, his Pathétique, Moonlight, Hammerklavier, Waldstein, and Appassionata piano sonatas, his Razumovsky quartets, and the bagatelle Für Elise.
This text is important, as it introduces the reader to some of the major works of Beethoven. It doesn't matter if the list expanded further either. It probably should be.
Beethoven's works, at least in the film about him were I remember, the Ninth last movement, Missa Solemnis Credo, the Eroica first movement, the Moonlight Sonata first movement, the Fifth, first and last movements, Leonore (later Fideleo) chorus in the final act. Someone here pointed out that Britney Spears has a bigger article than Beethoven. Well this will continue, if it keeps getting cut back. Wallie 09:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
At the risk of appearing pedantic, I've removed this paragraph from the lead:
Among his major works, some of which are instantly recognizable, are his Third (Eroica), Fifth, Sixth (Pastoral) and Ninth (Choral) symphonies (the last containing the "Ode to Joy"), his Piano Concerto No. 5 ("Emperor"), his Missa Solemnis, Wellington's Victory, his opera Leonore, his Violin Concerto, his Pathétique, Moonlight, Hammerklavier, Waldstein, and Appassionata piano sonatas, his Razumovsky quartets, and the bagatelle Für Elise.
Until today it said "most recognisable works" which was equally (if not more) problematic in my view (see discussions about this above). I have several concerns, and tentatively suggest we reach consensus here before it is put back. Firstly, what criteria are we using to define "major works"? By no stretch of the imagination is Wellingtons Sieg a major work! How can we include the Rasumovskys and not opp. 130, 131 and 133? How can we include piano concerto 5 and not 4? How can we include Fur Elise (which is, again, not a "major work") and not the Diabelli variations? And as it stands none of it is directly verifiable and all of it is original research unless someone can find a universally accepted and unimpeachable reference that says "X, Y and Z are his major works". I am all in favour of naming a few works in the lead, to lead people in, but no-one is going to plough through a long list, so the smaller the list (maybe 5 works?) the better.
My proposal is: can we agree there should be around 5 works named in the lead, what those 5 should be, and exactly how it should be phrased? Comments please. Can anyone see a way forward? -- RobertG ♬ talk 10:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes. I agree with you about Wellingons Sieg. I just happen to like it. So you can ditch that one if you like. It was more in the "recognizable" grouping. I would like more than five, but if it's cut back to five, then:
My five would be:
One from five different categories too. However, I hate throwing out some of the others, ie, all of them. Finally, best to resolve this quickly. Thanks. Wallie 10:43, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I've rearranged the list of music files section a bit. I hope that's ok. -- Eleassar my talk 13:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Needs a list of the CDs he has put out. 67.183.121.68
He retired to the studio in 1807, suffering from the difficult 'second album phase'. Either that, or the above is the dumbest comment I've ever read. Gareth E Kegg 23:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
In order to not get any edits I make deleted, I want to ask if this link could be added to the main Beethoven article page:
I thought this was a very useful site with only free sheet music. What do you think? -- Kylepiano 17:34, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Do you really have to point out how Beethoven's name is pronounced?
Who is this Wiki for anyway?
Can we not FOR ONCE get out from under this AWFUL POMPOUS influence?
i think the name is important...how would you like that yours will be mispronounced?
It's always useful to know how a name is pronounced correctly. Unfortunately in this case the information given is simply incorrect. As a native German speaker I can tell you that the "h" is anything but silent but is in fact enunciated quite distinctly, the sound being produced near the opening of the mouth/lips as in "hot", not further back as in "how", in any case being far removed from the suppression of the "h"-sound often (not)heard in renditions of the popular song "Roll over Beethoven" by English and American singers.
If the given pronunciation would ,as you state, be generally "accepted" (whatever that means), why would it then have to be given in parentheses (in a form only "understood" by the "knowledgable") ? And isn't an encyclopedic project like "Wikipedia" expressly devoted to making people more "knowledgable" ? Even if you would have to hide your "knowledgeability" to avoid unwelcome suspicions of "poshness".
So that the "correct" pronunciation given in the french version of "Wikipedia" would have to be something like "Bettovén". It's what the French always instinctively knew to be true. Gerald; Vienna; 10-09-06
I have presented a summary of research on Beethoven's hearing ability at Talk:Life_and_work_of_Ludwig_van_Beethoven. It should clear up misconceptions about the state of his hearing. - Gyan 18:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps more relating to the excellent movie with Gary Oldman and especially the theories expounded therein. It is taken for granted Ludde had syphilis but little real estate is devoted to where he got it - and why he would have been so furious at the adoption proceedings. The theory of this movie is an interesting and perhaps valid (and true) one and should be discussed, the pros and cons weighed.
Ludwig Van Beethoven
He wrote 138 opus numbers consisting of nine symphonies, sixteen string quartets, nine piano trios, thirty two piano sonatas, ten sonatas for violin and piano, five fo cello and piano, five piano concertos, a violin concerto, and nine concert overtures. (Borroff 488) Ludwig Van Beethoven was born in Bonn, German in 1770. His dad pushed him so hard to be the next Mozart that he hit his fingers with sticks until he played it right. When he started to play the piano he was only four, he was so tiny that he was to stand on the piano bench.
When Beethoven turned twelve he started to work with a tutor to help him learn how to play the piano, by the age of fifteen he was already writing some of his first pieces. Beethoven’s first public performance was in 1795, when he was twenty five. While Beethoven was in his mid twenties he started to go tone deaf. It made it hard to write music and then perform in front of the public, so he resorted to private parties.(Bouchier)
Beethoven’s most famous piece was Fidelio. At its big public debut it was played very poorly by Beethoven so nobody really liked it. During this time he wrote some of his most powerful pieces such as Symphony no.7, Pastoral Symphony, Symphony no.8, Piano concertos nos.4 and 5, and Violin Concerto. During his late period he played Hammer Klavier, op.106 and op.110, and Choral Symphony no.9 in d minor.
The article about Beethoven's Ninth Symphony is very interesting and enjoyable, but:
Should anybody change or delete or whatever that article, please do not delete the initial part (the one with the description of the symphony's movements), which was written by myself, obtaining it by the score of the symphony. -- Goochelaar
I would venture to say that it's written by an aficionado; if he's also a critic, he's a critic for a journal that doesn't bother archiving things online: [1]. Those three pages yield the year-old email mestrin1 at earthlink.net. Anyone care to ask him? -- Koyaanis Qatsi
Some statements in the article concerning Beethoven's work in relation to Haydn's and Mozart's are inaccurate.
First, the claim that his developments last 10 minutes. No, they are at most about 5 minutes. His longest movements are 15 to 20 minutes long (depending on repeats) with the development taking up about a third. In many of Haydn's works the development is equally extensive compared to the scale of the movement.
Second, the claim that the Eroica first movement is as long as a Mozart-era symphony. Mozart's symphonies with 4 movements take about 25 minutes to perform whereas the first movement of the Eroica is about 15 minutes. Possibly if one were to perform the Eroica very slowly with repeats and the Mozart very fast without repeats the times could be equal, but this is not a fair comparison.
However, it is indisputable that Beethoven's codas (closing sections) were on average much longer than Mozart's (no codas or very short ones) or Haydn's occasionally more extensive codas; and that Beethoven's movements were on average longer than Mozart's and Haydn's - say half as long again. There are very notable exceptions, like the short first movement of the Fifth Symphony and the String Quartet no.11 which is shorter than most of Haydn's mature works.
It's not true to say that Beethoven's use of rhythmic motifs contrasts strongly with Haydn's. On the contrary, Haydn pioneered the technique of breaking up musical thought into short, flexible rhythmic motifs, which Beethoven undoubtedly drew from. (See Haydn string quartet op.50 no.4 (first movement), the finale of the piano sonata no.52, the first movement of the sonata no.49, etc.etc.) However, Beethoven achieved unprecedented rhythmic drive and emotional and dramatic range with the technique, which probably leads many people to neglect Haydn's contribution.
While it's correct to say that the first-movement themes of the Fifth and Ninth symphonies are more rhythmic than melodic in character, it's difficult to see how the broad cello theme of the Eroica first movement can be called unmelodic. In fact, Mozart used the exact same melody decades earlier in one of his early minuets (though with a rather different overall effect). One of the distinguishing features of the 3rd. is the strong contrast between broad, simple melodies and energetic rhythmic passages. (Compare the quartet Op.59 no.1 first movement.)
Concerning the finale of the 3rd., it's more complex than just the initial (not very melodic) "theme" consisting of isolated notes. This turns out to be the bass-line of the theme revealed later, which is a broadly lyrical melody. In fact the bass-line is used as a *harmonic* theme, rather than a rhythmic one: Beethoven immediately changes the rhythm of the notes, but keeps the same harmony throughout the variations. This is similar to Baroque ground bass movements which present varying melodies and rhythms over the same harmony. Beethoven's innovation is in "fooling" us (at least the writer of the article) into thinking that the bass line is the melody. ***** tdent@auth.gr
Thanks for revising the Beethoven article, Stirling. I've edited slightly and added a bit more on the "crisis period."
I hope you will endorse (or at least put up with) my trimback of the discussion of the Ninth Symphony--the bits about the Choral Fantasy predecessor and the Berlin Wall were already there in the Ninth Symphony article, and I feel they fit there better than in the Beethoven article as such.
Have you thought of taking on Mozart or Schubert? Both need tender loving care right now.
Opus33 04:45, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I had not seen the Ninth Symphony Article when I posted my additions, and I agree that moving more writing there is better, it is an extensive article. The Beethoven needs revising, in that the section on his music proper needs to have a bit more on what an encyclopedia reader would need. What is there is technically good, and worthy to keep, but needs to be balanced with the emotional and literary work.
Schubert isn't really my strong point, I will probably stop by Haydn, and would like to continue to refine some of the individual articles on Beethoven's music, particularly his string quartets and piano trios.
A little while ago, somebody changed "baptized December 17" in the opening sentence to "born December 16". Is this definitely correct? I thought that we knew for sure when Beethoven was baptized, but couldn't say for sure what day he was born on. -- Camembert
We've now got individual articles on all nine symphonies, which I think renders the discussion of individual symphonies on this page redundant. I've put in cross-references.
In case anyone wants to restore old material, or transfer it to the individual symphony articles, below I've appended what I cut.
I hope this is ok. Opus33 20:44, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
Beethoven completed nine numbered symphonies. His first symphony, in C, is reliant upon Haydn models. His Symphony No. 2 in D extends Beethoven's understanding of the symphony. His first famous symphony was No. 3 in E-flat, better known as the Eroica. As mentioned, although this was originally dedicated to the French First Consul, Napoleon, Beethoven angrily ripped off the dedication after the Frenchman declared himself emperor.
The Symphony No. 4 in B-flat is a remarkable example of good humor. Even more famous is Symphony No. 5 in C minor, which starts with a well-known theme which people say sounds like fate knocking at the door. The Sixth Symphony, in F, is better known as the Pastoral. It is based on country life, and made up of five movements, of which the most famous are the second movement, Scene by the Brook, and the third, Merry Gathering of Country Folk.
The Seventh and Eighth symphonies are more rhythmic, the second movement of the eighth being based on the metronome, an invention by Beethoven's friend Johann Maelzel. The final complete symphony is Symphony No. 9 in D minor, composed in 1823 (and occasionally referred to as Choral), whose last movement, as mentioned, was a setting of Schiller's poem celebrating joy. A choir and four vocal soloists appear in this movement. (The chorus has been adopted as the official anthem of the European Union.)
Here's the stuff I just removed from the top of the article, in case anyone want to put it back:
Perhaps we should at least make a mention of it. Not all people visiting this site will know that Beethoven was the composer of these pieces. Let's make that connection for the layman reader. Taco325i 13:55 9 Aug 2005.
I'm posting this under Beethoven, since I think most classical music editors have this page on their watchlist, but the issue comes up for all composers.
We've now got a fair number of articles about individual compositions by Beethoven. What would be the best way to give the reader easy access to all of these articles? Asking the reader to go to "What links here" seems inadequate, since for someone like Beethoven the compositions are buried in a whole raft of other random cultural connections. Should there be a list, like ===Articles on compositions by Beethoven=== as part of the ==See also== section?
Whatever we do, if anything, probably should be done uniformly for all composers.
Thanks in advance for your opinion, yours very truly, Opus33 18:40, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for all your replies. I've tried to take them into account in revising List of works by Beethoven, adding links to every work that already has a Wikipedia article. As far as ordering the genres, I tried to follow what's in the Penguin Guide to CDs, which is probably already familiar to many people.
For other composers, e.g. Haydn, I think I will take Antandrus's advice and not duplicate the Beethoven scheme, but simply add to the ==See also== section. This seems the simplest way to guide the reader to articles on individual works so long as there isn't a great number of them. Opus33 19:52, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Hi- We already had a link to the Wikiquote entry for Beethoven, and there's also already a ban on banner ads in the Wikipedia, so I took out the ad. I think the article will be just as useful and also look much nicer if we leave these ads out. I hope that's ok. Cheers, Opus33 00:36, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Hi all-- This article has a rather long and rambling feel to it, and I'm only adding to the effect right now by putting in more details of Beethoven's biography. Usually when a Wikipedia article gets long, it is redeployed as a main article plus various satellite articles, with the main article including brief summaries of the satellite articles. For an example, see (among many others) United Kingdom.
For the Beethoven article, the satellites would plausibly be a detailed biography, a detailed discussion of musical style and innovations, a list of works (already a satellite), and perhaps something on symphonies.
Please reply if you think this is not the right way to go; otherwise I will try to implement it soon. Opus33 15:17, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
[P.S. thanks to Antandrus for preliminary discussion of this idea.]
See the article below in the "Beethoven Was Black" section for references/proof concerning Beethoven's lineage.
The article should mention the controversy (Edward G. Nilges 11-19-2004 210.21.221.184 02:26, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)) and I have added a paragraph.
Some scholars (by no means all) have raised the possibility that Beethoven was of at least partial African ancestry, and this may explain some of the rythmic and tonal explorations in his late works, where (for example) jazzlike syncopations appear in his Hammerklavier sonata. An explanation of this possibility would be the Turkish invasion of south-eastern Europe; the Turkish forces used Ethiopian and other African troops as musicians, and were stopped near Vienna in the 17th century. Other scholars reject this possibility.
Edward Nilges: I'll consider rewriting it with sources when I have time. The issue was, I think now, more appropriate to raise first in discussion but I was also pressed for time when I modified the article.
There was no assertion about syncopation, being genetic. There are indeed irresponsible assertions made about genetics, but the rule here is that any POSITIVE assertion about African genes is "irresponsible and inflammatory".
I didn't mention genes. Instead, there was an entire hidden Turkish tradition in south-eastern European classical music which emerges in the "Turkish" march but which is in denial about "miscegenation".
Rather than thinking Beethoven unique, the mathematics of human reproduction show race mixture to be the (denied) norm and not exceptional. If one traces only the patrilineal line, one ignores contributions which are by default multiracial.
I had alwayd understood it was Schubert who had a touch of black blood. Sounds like a fashionable theory of the day to explain musical talent, SqueakBox 15:01, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
"Rather than thinking Beethoven unique, the mathematics of human reproduction show race mixture to be the (denied) norm and not exceptional. If one traces only the patrilineal line, one ignores contributions which are by default multiracial."
The mathematics of human reproductuon show that Beethoven could also be Swiss. We know that some of his ancestors were Flemish, and we also know that during the 80 years war many Swiss mercenaries fought in Flandres, and probably got on with the local women a bit. From this we can conclude that there is a possibilty of Swiss ancestry in Beethoven's linage. I think this hypotheticly possible Swissness should be mentioned in the article.
The chances of Beethoven being black are about the same as the chances of Gustavus Adolphus being Vietnamese. Obviously the 19th century works claiming that he was black were ment to be defamatory, it's only in modern times that some Afrocentrics have accepted this as fact.
This seems to be so incredibly absurd; it is certainly not worth mentioning in the main article and I will most strenuously oppose anything of the kind.
The current edition of the section on Beethoven's race is an absolute disgrace. It's referential basis - a German race study from 1914 - is itself laughable. But even putting aside its blatantly rascist (and sexist - that one slips in too) agenda, the actual argument leaves something to be desired. It starts from the premiss that Beethoven was an “Alpinid”, which we are told means Celtic. We are then given a second premiss - namely that Alpinids are not “Negrids”. Ergo, syllogistic form leads us to the conclusion that Beethoven was not a “Negrid”. That is the central argument, although our good annalist goes so far as to adorn it with an analysis of the racial constitution of "the Moors" (does the adjective "Moorish" actually occur here?). Firstly now, (let's get this set out nice and clear so that we can all follow it) the initial premiss simply asserts what is at issue. Secondly the racial divisions, of which Negrid and Armenid are two, are too copious (I forget exactly how many) to allow for any strict boundary between seperate "races". That is, the "if Armenid then not Negrid" premiss just might not be as watertight as it intially appeared to be. Indeed, I would venture to suggest that these classifications from the (otherwise, I am sure, seminal) 1914 study are in fact arbitrary, informed by prejudice, and utterly without merit. Our esteemed chronicler's assurance that this literature has gained some favourable reception in the United States deos more harm to the reputation of that country than it adds to the reputation of the study. Finally, one might indeed enquire “what on earth is a Negrid?! An Alpinid?! Mediterannid-Aethiopid-Armenid???!!!” This article should be closed from gereral editing if this kind of trite, idiotic bigoted drivel continues to appear. —This unsigned comment was added by 86.128.119.22 ( talk • contribs) .
While there is no evidence for it, it should be documented as a speculation which goes back to the 19th century. Perhaps in the life and work section?
Stirling Newberry 01:42, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
"EVIDENCE"
Fredrick Hertz, German anthropologist, in "Race and Civilation" refers twice to Beethoven's "Negroid traits" and his "dark" skin, and "flat, thick nose." (pp. 123 and 178.)
Frau Fischer, an intimate acquaintance of Beethoven, describes him thus, "Short, stocky, broad shoulders, short neck, round nose, blackish- brown complexion." (From R. H. Schauffler, The Man Who Freed Music, Vol. I p. 18, 1929)
Alexander W. Thayer perhaps the foremost authority on Beethoven, says, "Beethoven had even more of the Moor in his features than his master, 'Haydn'." (Beethoven, Vol. I p. 146) By "Moor" was meant "Negro" Until recent times the German for "Negro" was "Mohr"
Paul Bekker, another very noted authority on Beethoven, says that "the most faithful picture of Beethoven's head" shows him with "wide thicklipped mouth, short thick nose and proudly arched forehead" (Beethoven, p. 41 1925. trans. Bozman).
For more extended proof as well as a picture of Beethoven's life- mask see ("Sex and Race", Vol. 3 pp. 306-309)
Hopefully this will clear up the controversy about proof of Beethoven's race. These claims of Beethoven's African lineage were not originally made by black people, but by white Europeans. They were not made to diminish him in creativity or stature. They were simply a description of him. These same Europeans had no knowledge of the uproar that this would cause amongst their American offspring.
Tom 11/09/2005
Whlie POV statements can be deleted in articles - In the talk section we don't delete others arguments - everyone is allowed to have their own opinion.-- God of War 04:23, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
From Cecil Adams of the Straight Dope:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/050527.html
No, Beethoven was not Black nor was he African. Spurious conjecture does not belong on this page.
[[Lochdale|Lochdale]
Jugbo and others obviously don't believe Hertz, Fischer, Thayer or Bekker. I would welcome the writings of other Beethoven contemporaries discribing his appearrance. Of course he/she might have to go some to find someone closer to Beethoven than Fischer. He/she assumes that being tanned is on parallel with a "blackish brown complexion" as written by Fischer. You have Caucasion people around the world that spend enormous amounts of time in the summer sun (Naked) as well as in tanning booths who do not develope blackish brown complexions. Not to mention the caucasion people who live in Africa who still look like tanned caucasions after living and walking in more sun than Germans ever see in their lifetime. I guess that we are to suppose that Fischer's comments were not made in the winter? If my comments are to be speculative and dubious based on the writings of Beethovens friend, then Jugbos comments deserve the same discredit for his lack of intimate associate written references. Everyone reading this article knows several people of German decent. I dare say that none of them have a blackish brown complexion unless they have someone in their lineage with a blackish brown complexion. (Mendel's Law). At best, if he/she considers the references that I used as none proof, then I would think that his/her position would be neutral since he/she also offers no opposing proof. Saying that he walked in the sun often as a justification of his blackish brown complexion (thinking that the rest of the world doesn't know the difference) is intellectually offensive. To say that my comments are racist when (with the exeception of J.A. Rogers' research) they are based solely on the writings of Beethovens friends and noted authorities (none of whom are black) is unfair. Jugbo you should think deeply about where the racism may truly be. Is it true that I am trying to make Beethoven black, or is it more true that Jugbo and others can't bear the thought that he might not have been causcasion? Tom 01/06/06
Jugbo I agree with you on the symbolic references of skin color amongst people of European decent. I've even known Black Irish people with an olive complexion who did not look black at all in the modern sense. So I accept your comments on the symbolic meanings of these coloristic comments in many cases. I also agree with you that Beethoven's contributions belong to Europe as ours surely belong to America. I don't think that thats what we're dealing with here. What you fail to address is Thayer's comment. You said earlier that you believed Thayer, so let's examine his comment. Thayer said that "Beethoven had even more of the Moor in his features than his master Haydn" (Bethoven Vol. 1. p 146). Here Thayer describes not just a skin color, but a race of people. The Moors. Beethoven was rightfully described as a black Spaniard given the ethnic mixing between Moors and Spaniards dating as far back as the 8th century. I agree with your statement that Spaniards are the darkess Europeans. They are the darkess Europeans because of their mixing with the Moors. Was your Mediterranean-looking Grandfather ever mistaken for someone of Morrish decent? Thayer's comment removes Beethoven's appearance from both the conceptual and social coloristic nicknames of the period. Let's condense the comments of Bekker, Fischer, Thayer and Hertz, and put them all together. Blackish brown complexion, Wide thick lipped mouth, Short thick nose and Moorish appearance. I believe that these descriptions go beyond the socially conceptual and lend more to the actual description of the man. I prefer not to lend social slant to these descriptions of Beethoven, but to take these comments at face value. Had you considered that there were actually people living in Europe (then and now) that these comments of color would actually apply to accurately? Had you considered that any of them would be musically gifted? There are some people who are called black who actually are black and/or mixed with it. I don't believe that Beethoven was a pure blood African, but he had at least as much African in him as Halle Berry. Tom 01/14/06
Jugbo you are a studied person and discount that the Moors were black. Not fair. To say that they were not black is a most recent practice. Their make up seems to have been Black Arab, Berber and West African. Go to http://herso.freeservers.com/moors.html and scroll down three images to the picture of the moorish chief Eduard Charlemont and tell me what you think he is. His picture also hangs in the Philadelphia Museum of Art. Of course you may consider this picture as fabricated as I think the images of Beethoven. Also for africans in early Europe, (and this is case sensitive)go to http//www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Classroom/9912/africanseurope.html Pushkin, whom you are familiar with is at the end of this article, but there's much that takes place before that. Tom 01/15/06
The question can easily be resolved by looking at physical evidence. Beethoven's hair - which has been preserved - is obviously that of a white person.
Here the final evaluation from an expert on the matter: Beethoven was an Alpinid (mean IQ ~97,occurance from France to Siberian Russia, cyclothymous Celtic race, significantly more feminine than the leptomorphic Nordid race ) with some Negriform features as a flat, round nose not connected to the Negrids genetically. As the Moors were no Negrids,too , but Aethiopid Europids (just as the Pharaohs), some of their genes would not have changed Beethoven's belonging to the Alpinid race. As the Alpinid race is one of the most intelligent races of all 37 races and additionally is quite numerous in contrast to the endangered Nordid race, a Beethoven was most likley to occur in the Alpinid subrace having access to the central European culture facilities (Vienna).Envious negros (see John Randal Baker, Race ,1974, Oxford University Press, for the correct use of the term Negro as a non-offensive ethnic term) created the "Negro Beethoven "campaign. 80.138.193.152 02:55, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
A few other points:
- The moors weren't black.
- A quote from a writer isn't scientific evidence in support of anything ( especially one who never even saw Beethoven). Hearsay is the least impressive evidence in support of anything.
- There is no legitimate historical interest in this discussion: the people promoting the viewpoint that Beethoven was black are neither historians nor scientists, but are members of a political movement known as "Afro-centrism" (which claims that all of recorded history involves a conspiracy of silence against black people's achievments).-- Johan77
A response to everything you've said here has already been produced above (or below). However, two brief emphases most pertinent to what you've just claimed:
If every time a marginal party claimed something implausible and demanded refutation, and mainstream academia reacted, do you think any acquisition of knowledge would occur as progressively as it should? No serious professional scholar is going to try to prove that Beethoven was white, because they understand that obviously tendentious claims like this one shouldn't be allowed to divert time and energy and other resources away from more worthy and consequential pursuits. A note on the German/Moorish issue: Beethoven was German because his ancestors and his ethnicity were (in the liberal sense of Germanic, as he was also of Belgian extraction); his appearance was described as "Moorish". Also worthy of emphasis is the fact that this was a mere comparison. He was also described as a "Spaniard", but that doesn't mean that he was one (or that he could "EASILY" have been one) simply because someone suggested it. Review my arguments. There's no credible reason to believe that he was negroid. -- Jugbo 19:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
The current edition of the section on Beethoven's race is an absolute disgrace. It's referential basis - a German race study from 1914 - is itself laughable. But even putting aside its blatantly rascist (and sexist - that one slips in too) agenda, the actual argument leaves something to be desired. It starts from the premiss that Beethoven was an “Alpinid”, which we are told means Celtic. We are then given a second premiss - namely that Alpinids are not “Negrids”. Ergo, syllogistic form leads us to the conclusion that Beethoven was not a “Negrid”. That is the central argument, although our good annalist goes so far as to adorn it with an analysis of the racial constitution of "the Moors" (does the adjective "Moorish" actually occur here?). Firstly now, (let's get this set out nice and clear so that we can all follow it) the initial premiss simply asserts what is at issue. Secondly the racial divisions, of which Negrid and Armenid are two, are too copious (I forget exactly how many) to allow for any strict boundary between seperate "races". That is, the "if Armenid then not Negrid" premiss just might not be as watertight as it intially appeared to be. Indeed, I would venture to suggest that these classifications from the (otherwise, I am sure, seminal) 1914 study are in fact arbitrary, informed by prejudice, and utterly without merit. Our esteemed chronicler's assurance that this literature has gained some favourable reception in the United States deos more harm to the reputation of that country than it adds to the reputation of the study. Finally, one might indeed enquire “what on earth is a Negrid?! An Alpinid?! Mediterannid-Aethiopid-Armenid???!!!” This article should be closed from gereral editing if this kind of trite, idiotic, bigoted drivel continues to appear.
-- Johan77
According to the British Museum, Oxford University and Egyptologist scholar Stanley Lane-Poole, author of "Moors in Spain" Poole proves that Moors were African and of Ethiopic and Berber origin and corrects the previously wrong notion that they were the slaves of the European Moors who then adopted the customs and language of their former masters. Find this in "Moors" here in Wikipedia.
Jugbo how could you send these readers to the Moors page here in Wikipedia when right there in the first paragraph it says The Moors were mainly comprised of Ethiopians, West Africans, Sub Saharan Africans, Arabs and Berbers? Beats me. Another myth bites the dust. Tom 06/12/06
History doesn't change Jugbo. I'm sure that you would change the Moors page if you could so that it would reflect the things that you've written above, as well as save you some embarrassment. However you will never remove from the earth what really happened. Myths will come and go, but the truth will always resurface. Forever. With the truth of the Moors ethnicity being clear (according to Wikipedia) we can now revisit Beethoven's contemporaries describing him as one. Or we can once again return to modern hypothesis. It's a matter of who you're going to believe. The people who knew and described him or those who never met the man. Tom 07/24/06
I see that the Moor page has been changed. And it is written that their appearance ran the distance between very dark and very light. It states that they were a diverse lot. It appears that there was a lot of intermingling between the races, which is normal even today.
Jugbo whether I'm correct or not about my belief in Beethovens ethnicity doesn't make me a racist. The most that I can be is incorrect. In many of the earlier writings above you've attacked me racially without knowing what race I am. You assume that I'm black because of the stance that I take commensurate with what was written by Beethovens contemporaries. You would also have everyone believe that when the Berbers and the Arabs entered North Africa, (the key word being "enter"), that it was theretofore an uninhabited land. There is clear archeological evidence of a dark skinned african People in North Africa predating the Berbers by centuries. There is also clear evidence of a dark skinned wooly haired Arab people existing then and even today. Archeology has shown that the farther back history goes, the darker the population of these lands get. These are not black archeological reports I might add. The Berbers are modern history by comparison. The slaves of the Moors often looked like their slave masters. Recently Wikipedias stance on the Moors ethnicity didn't change to suit my beliefs, it changed to suit yours. A change I suspect, that you had something to do with. Whether you did or not, this is a discredit to Wikipedia. I lend no more credibility to your genetic reports than I do to the changes of the Moors page. But to your constant accusations of me being a racist, "I think thou protest too much". It is also noticed by all readers that you are the catalyst for the racist accusations listed herein and above. Behavior does not lie. Tom 08/02/06
This is silly, I'm out. Tom 08/26/06
Anyone who thinks that the Moors of North Africa were untouched ethnically by Africans probably thinks that Europeons are ethnically untouched by native Americans. How can anyone say that a people declared of Arab and Berber decent are white when the Arabs themselves are not white. Even if the Moors were white with black slaves, they mated with those slaves like all slave owners did. The Moors were mutts. Much of their period art depicts them as a mixed people. Amongst their Arab ranks were many valiant dark skinned wooly haired warriors. In many cases slave and slave owner looked alike and in many cases they did not.
I must say, when I first saw the header for this section, I expected a joke of somewhat questionable punchlinery, not a discourse on how Beethoven's black blood manifested itself in his jungle rhythms - that type of argument smacks not only of ignorance and idiocy, but barely-veiled racism. I am of strong Italian descent, but this does not lend to me the genetic ability to make delicious spaghetti sauce. The presence of "negroid" features, quoted of by supposed Beethovenian contemporaries, referenced from a page that deals with little more than conspiracy theory, shows not only a complete lack of common sense, scholarly thinking, and taste, but a complete disregard for the integrity of Wikipedia as an online encyclopedia, and for the Wikipedia community as a whole. -- Milton 06:31, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I removed the "born December 16" which was added by an anonymous editor. As far as I know, his exact birth date is not known with certainty, but inferred from the usual custom at the time of baptising infants a day or two after birth. The New Grove gives no birthdate; Slonimsky gives "December 15 or 16." At any rate this issue is covered in the full life and work article. I'm open to alternative opinions, including putting the date back if others feel it is sufficiently well established, or if there is a good source on his birthdate I don't know about. Antandrus 01:42, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
--
Hi! good point
I know people have saved locks of Beethoven's hair, etc. Has anyone ever attributed any miracles to these relics? I've seen [ http://www.robert.to/beetweep/ ] this web site, but I don't know if its for real or not.
I reverted:
"As a monolith of the music of his era, his legacy cast a wide shadow on those that succeeded him; he has left an indelible mark on the tradition of European classical music."
Editor Bleh Fu actually expressed a qualm about this edit when offering it, i.e. that it might be a bit "flowery". I think this intuition is dead on, and would like to give a reason in support: most Wikipedia readers go to our encyclopedia to get facts, not flowery prose. If you agree with me (and I hope you do) that we write the Wikipedia for our readers and not for ourselves, than that's a good reason to go for a "just the facts" approach and keep the prose non-distracting. Thanks for listening. Opus33 16:07, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've added some language on reputation, it isn't the most felicitous, but I think that the fact beneath the prose should be there: that Beethoven did indeed cast a long shadow. Stirling Newberry 16:52, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I was trying to avoid peacock terms in the description; there should definitely be an elaboration on *why* Beethoven is considered the greatest of composers, even if it is in twelve words or less. Regarding "just the facts", is is already a grey area once we use expressions like "is widely regarded as". I think Stirling's edit is good, and should stand. -- bleh fu talk fu 21:23, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)
"His reputation and genius have inspired— and in many cases intimidated— ensuing generations of composers, musicians, and audiences." Intimidated? Clarityfiend 09:37, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Concerning the "almost certainly" birth date, which I also reverted, please see the discussion from earlier in this forum--we've gone through this one several times already. I can't see any justification for including it unless the anonymous contributor can cite solid evidence from scholarly literature--what is actually known about 18th century baptismal practices in this part of Germany? In the absence of such documentation, we should stick to the facts.
Opus33 16:07, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Agreed, no one has found any sources since the last time. Stirling Newberry 16:25, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think this is a good article: a sensible length, with many useful links for those wanting detail. I have lightly edited all of it, without altering much at all in the content. I respect people's well-researched efforts, and feel little need to supplement them. Punctuation was often faulty, and there was some inconsistency in capitalisation. At a couple of points I felt the need to fix the wording, so that the point being made would be easier to grasp without the distraction of grammatical or stylistic problems. Please weigh these carefully if you intend to revert anything: especially, if you make a well-considered and well-explained alteration or reversion in wording, take care not to introduce or re-introduce bad punctuation and the like. (I would welcome comments.) -- Noetica 02:40, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I would like to delete the section on "Beethoven as Fictional Character". Who else agrees with me? Whenever someone tries to delete it, the deletion gets reverted. An encyclopedia article on the greatest composer who ever lived (debatable, of course) should not have some silliness about a clone of Beethoven in an anime novel. Pfalstad 03:57, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I know Beethoven was born into a Roman Catholic family, and in my view he wrote some of the greatest devotional music. However I am not clear that this qualifies him for consideration as a R.C.; he probably does not qualify through personal faith, Haydn considered him an atheist (see Ludwig van Beethoven's religious beliefs) and I remain unconvinced that his output is notably R.C. I notice that currently Madonna and Jenny McCarthy are also in the category, so I'm really not clear what the criteria are. I have respectfully removed the Roman Catholic artists category pending discussion. Anyone else have a view? -- RobertG ♬ talk 08:30, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Would you distinguish between a practicing vs. non-practicing Jew, as opposed to a practicing vs. non-practicing Catholic? Being Jewish carries an obvious religious connotation, and yet a number of famous Jews have been agnostics or atheists. Does that make them any less Jewish? Wahkeenah 11:37, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I might argue that the first and best Roman Catholic "artist" was the guy that painted the Sistine Chapel. :) Here's another angle to look at, which might or might not help: You often hear about someone being labeled a "Jewish comedian". Now, does that mean the comedian is Jewish and also tells primarily jokes that center on Judaism? Or does it mean he happens to be Jewish but tells jokes of all kinds? If it's the latter, then Myron Cohen was a lot more of a "Jewish comedian" than was Jacob Cohen (a.k.a. Rodney Dangerfield). If it's the former, they both qualify. Wahkeenah 17:26, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If Brooke Shields can be categorized a "Roman Catholic artist", I don't see why Beethoven shouldn't be. Wahkeenah 18:22, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
They kept saying Bach, Bach, Bach... I must be 6 yrs old. -- Lord Voldemort (Dark Mark) 19:06, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Awesome. You're my new idol. :) I assume you've heard what happened when they exhumed him? Wahkeenah 23:15, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Truly hilarious though needed explaining. I will remember that for my fav, Schubert. Still not quite sure why Beethoven shouldn't have been getting rid of his dogs not his chickens, SqueakBox 15:47, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
Well I was singing that old classic perennial favourite Old Macdonald had a farm but I couldn't remember what the chickens said, SqueakBox 15:54, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
It may be more of an English song. I love singing it but my wife gets me to shut up if she is around. She also wishes the great composers were decomposing so she didn't have to put up with the Missa Solemnis and others favourites of mine, SqueakBox 16:20, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
Hey, it could still be "bark"... if the dog spoke with a Bostonian accent, yes? Meanwhile, back here with the chickens, I wonder if you've ever heard Ray Stevens' version of In the Mood done by "The Henhouse Five"? Wahkeenah 16:28, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
The article at present has the following interesting sentence at the end of the Life & Work chapter (italics mine):
To quote Graham Chapman: "What?" -- Klehti 12:26, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Is his name "Van Beethoven" or "Von Beethoven" or maybe even simply "Beethoven"? Perhaps the article could say something about this. -- MarSch 12:18, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
I discovered that the template Template:Ludwig van Beethoven was listed on WP:TFD about a week ago. It says on the top of the TFD page to "give notice of its proposed deletion at relevant talk pages." As the most relevant talk page, I'm helpfully giving notice here now. -- RobertG ♬ talk 14:51, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
I've added a section nearly at the end. Yeah, the Beethoven Peninsula. There are many other places and things named after the Great Man. The section can grow some, but then should probably be spun off into Beethoven eponyms. -- FourthAve 09:16, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I've edited this section that used to include a huge number of links to various personal/commercial sites. The Beethoven-Haus website is an impressively thorough and encyclopedic repository of all things eBeethoven, and is very professionaly done. I think it should satisfy most needs; I've also included the links to source material such as the CBC report and the page on the lock of hair. Regards enceph alon 11:07, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
This section seems rather abruptly out of place in this article, which is a general overview of the chap. It seems to me that it will be best placed in an article about his works and writings, but that's a list. Perhaps Life and Works? I'll move it there soon if there are no better suggestions. Thanks guys. enceph alon 16:00, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
I removed Beethoven from the "Dutch people" category - there's no mention of anything Dutch in the article. Did the "van" in his name confuse someone? He was not a native of Vienna - he was born in Bonn. I tightened the categorisation from "German people" to "German composers". I removed categorisation in "Roman Catholics" as per Category talk:Roman Catholics. I also question his categorisation as a "pop icon". Is he? Or is this someone's opinion? I'm afraid I am unhip, and don't really understand exactly what a pop icon is, but when I see Buddha, Britney Spears and Madonna also in that category I worry. Anyone else have a view? -- RobertG ♬ talk 12:20, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to see someone with the know-how update the article on Beethoven's childhood and youth. There is very little mention of this.
Ludwig's Childhood:
Ludwig van Beethoven suffered a tragic childhood. His father was an alcoholic and often abused him. Johann would force Ludwig to practice all of the time, and when Beethoven would make a mistake, he would slam the piano cover on his knuckles and make him play it over again. Moreover, if Beethoven would play a piece perfectly, his father would not provide any positive reinforcement. Often times, Johann would stay out late drinking with his buddies, and then bring them home at one o'clock in the morning to listen to little Ludwig play. Of course a little boy of Beethoven's age would be asleep at this hour of the night, but that didn't stop Johann. He would slap little Ludwig in the head to get him up, and make Ludwig play for all of his drunken buddies. They all would critique his playing, and correct him with force if he messed up. Because Beethoven was so poorly treated by his father he developed a close relationship with his mother. She died when Beethoven was a teenager, this devastated Ludwig. Because Johann was increasingly becoming worse and worse with his drinking, he had lost his job as a tenor at the Electoral court. Beethoven, realizing that he now had to support himself and his brothers, sought work, and by 1782 he served as deputy organist when Christian Neefe (Court Organist) took leave. By this time, Beethoven was already composing works and was considered to be a piano virtuoso, and the next year, Ludwig was hired as orchestral harpsichordist at the court. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.2.71.150 ( talk • contribs) .
Hi User:82.181.158.247, with respect to the above claim in the intro, I think it's more in keeping with the NPOV of an international encyclopedia that it be qualified. Beethoven was possibly the finest composer of music in the Western tradition, true; however
Thus, my compromise wording. I don't think the sentence "He was a major musical figure in the transitional period between the Classical and Romantic eras, and is widely regarded as one of the greatest composers in history" does serious violence to Beethoven's reputation and is, all things considered, probably the fairest way of putting it. However, it does retain the problem described in WP:WEASEL; a quote from a suitably weighty authority may be an improvement. Kind regards encephalon 00:32, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
"widely regarded as" follows with the qualifier "one of the greatest..." which allows the sentence to retain neutrality. No person would seriously dispute that Beethoven has a mammoth reputation surpassing other composers (except for maybe Mozart), so "widely regarded" is an accurate description. No one would disagree that "Hitler is widely regarded as one of the most hated figures in history", whether one agrees with that comment or not. Taco325i 02:08, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi. My main point was that the sentence had bad grammar (at least in my browser it read: "regarded as one the greatest composers"). I think it is equally true that he is widely regarded as THE greatest composer of all time, but one could qualify this as well. At its present state, there is no indication that his reputation is greater than e.g. Schubert's. Could we use something like "widely regarded as one of the greatest composers in history, and by many as the greatest composer of all time" in order to clarify the matter? -- 82.181.158.247 09:20, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
The following previously existed as part of the article body:
BEETHOVEN THE NEGRO?
Another continuing controversy surrounding Beethoven is whether he was a "white man" or a "black man". What specifically is being referenced, is the true identity of Ludwig van Beethoven, considered Europe’s greatest classical music composer. Directly, Beethoven was a black man. Specifically, his mother was a Moor, that group of Muslim Africans who conquered parts of Europe--making Spain their capital--for some 800 years.
In order to make such a substantial statement, presentation of verifiable evidence is compulsory. Let's start with what some of Beethoven's contemporaries and biographers say about his appearance. Frau Fisher, a close friend of Beethoven, described him with “blackish-brown complexion.” Frederick Hertz, German anthropologist, used these terms to describe him: “Negroid traits, dark skin, flat, thick nose.”
Emil Ludwig, in his book “Beethoven,” says: “His face reveals no trace of the German. He was so dark that people dubbed him Spagnol [dark-skinned].” Fanny Giannatasio del Rio, in her book “An Unrequited Love: An Episode in the Life of Beethoven,” wrote “His somewhat flat broad nose and rather wide mouth, his small piercing eyes and swarthy [dark] complexion, pockmarked into the bargain, gave him a strong resemblance to a mulatto.” C. Czerny stated, “His beard--he had not shaved for several days--made the lower part of his already brown face still darker.”
Following are one word descriptions of Beethoven from various writers: Grillparzer, “dark” Bettina von Armin, “brown” Schindler, “red and brown” Rellstab, “brownish” Gelinek, “short, dark.”
The above text, apart from leaving something to be desired stylistically, is not, I think, appropriate for inclusion in the encyclopedia article on Beethoven. First, it states a theory widely held to be... less than creditable by the international academic community. Second, it supports the theory entirely by (thin) circumstantial and hearsay evidence, with no direct evidence supporting any of the claims and no independent corroborations. Much of the evidence consists of double-hearsay (i.e., a book claiming to say what someone else claimed to say about Beethoven), and most of that is to the effect that Beethoven had darker skin and/or non-"Germanic" features. Aside from the evidentiary flimsiness, it simply does not follow logically that because Beethoven had dark skin, he was therefore a "negro." Additionally, the information about his mother's ethnicity is totally unsubstantiated. Third, the above does not define terms with sufficient rigor: what constitutes a "black man" as opposed to a "white man" for the purposes of this theory? What criteria must be met? How must they be met?
Thus, in light of the weakness of the argument, and the overwhelming presumption of both the academic community and the public at large that Beethoven was Caucasian, I don't see why this argument warrants an entire section. Perhaps a short mention might be warranted, but even then it would need to be so heavily caveated that it probably doesn't make sense. RiseAbove 06:33, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
--- Well if you are so unsure that Beethoven was black then how can you be so sure he was white. You provide no evidence or proof. There is no book describing him as a white man or flemish or anything of such.
No need. We know Germany and Austria were countries where the great majority of people were white in that time. Therefore if he had been black it would have evoked interest whereas him being white evoked no interest whatsoever, so this is somnething we do NOT need to source, SqueakBox 02:32, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't necessarily agree that Beethoven was black at all and it probably should be the one that has to be proven. However at the same time we have no proof that Beethoven was any specific ethnic group or that he was even a european ethnic group. For all we know he could have been gypsy or jewish or chinese(probably not)but if people are going to state he is slavic and flemish they better give some proof. —This unsigned comment was added by Dualldual ( talk • contribs) .
It appears that none of the contributions on Beethoven's negroid appearance are considered relevant by modern mainstream historians. There are several writers mentioned above that have listed in well respected literature that Beethoven had the appearance of a mulatto with one saying that he had no German features at all. Do Mainstream historians attack Beethoven's contemporaries directly. Are their writings considered false. Apparently. Mainstream historians who discount or dillute the writings of Grillparzer, Bettina Von Armin, Schindler, Ludwig, Hertz or Beethoven's close friend Frau Fisher cannot in any way be considered an authority on Beethoven. Beethoven has to be proven to be different than these writers have described him, not vice versa. Modern mainstream historical accounts that differ from these original writings pale in comparison to these writings. Who is to be believed, modern historians or Beethovens contemporaries? Jugbo and Squeakbox have stated that if Beethoven was negroid in appearance that surely it would have been mentioned. But that's exactly what Beethoven's contemporaries did. MENTION IT. Several of them wrote about it in world respected literature. Beethoven's contemporaries are mainstream and modern historians who discredit what they wrote are the renegades. Try as they may, modern historians will never be able to remove these original writings from the pages of history. Tom 15 April 2006 (UTC)
====Paper never refused ink. A lot of stuff published in standard sources is incorrect.
Yeah, like those works that argue that he was black. -- Jugbo 02:11, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
The article currently states "If we consider the Romantic movement as an aesthetic epoch in literature and the arts generally, Beethoven sits squarely in the first half along with literary Romantics such as the German poets Goethe and Schiller". From my limited understanding of the history of German literature, neither Goethe or Schiller are considered to be part of the Romantic movement, and therefore this statement is incorrect. Jeremy J. Shapiro 21:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I prefer to discuss this rather than revert it. I changed "Beethoven was one of the most important figures" to "Beethoven was an important figure" because the former really means the latter but just uses excess verbiage. If you look at a standard English style book, such as Strunk and White, etc., they tell you to avoid the expression "one of the most" because it is the equivalent of what on Wikipedia is called a weasel word. Either say something is the most important x, or say that it's an important x, but saying "one of the most important" x doesn't really say much. Jeremy J. Shapiro 18:53, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Allegedly, after a critic complained of his 3d Symphony that nobody'd listen to a 40min symphony, he wrote a 90min one... Trekphiler 08:46, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
There is this really cool scene in leon the professional where the crazy police cheif guy breaks into the guy's apartment and kills his entire family to the music of beethoven. There is this quote - "I like these calm little moments before the storm; it reminds me of beethoven" Then he kicks down the door and murders the entire family with beethoven's music in the background. At the end he corners the guy that is holding out on him and says "you don't like beethoven - you don't know what you're missing" then he kills him.
I love this song as it is so powerfull and fits the scene so perfectly. However, it is not listed in the credits and I can not find it anywhere. Has anyone that has seen this movie recognize it?-- God of War 07:15, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Don't delete talk page comments unless they are extremely offensive (or possibly completely off topic). See Wikipedia:Talk page, and Wikipedia:Delete personal attacks. Sam Spade 15:55, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Is there some reason User:Pavel Vozenilek is deleting questions? [31]-- God_of War 07:49, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
It is claimed that Für Elise is a bagatelle. I would agree but only in the most generic sense. It was certainly not titled "bagatelle" by Beethoven, and does not appear in the Urtext complete edition of the Bagatelles. JackofOz 22:20, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Curiouser and curiouser.
I guess that without the autograph we'll never really know what Beethoven called it. It seems the name "bagatelle" has become associated with it, even if it's not accepted by everyone. On balance, I'm happy to leave the text stand. Thanks folks. JackofOz 14:06, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to offer an opinion about the two portraits of Beethoven that are competing here.
One of the rivals is a gray-toned portrait, quite Romantic in character, painted by Carl Jäger. It was originally uploaded by Chris K, and has been amplified and defended by Janderk. It looks like this: [32], and shows a person who could be considered conventionally very handsome.
Competing with the Jäger portrait is a portrait posted by Qcanfixit and described as follows:
It looks like this: [33], and shows a somewhat funny-looking guy.
The "handsome" Jäger portrait is more familiar to the general public, I suspect.
Here is some further background. If you follow the links from the Jäger portrait, you'll find that Carl Jäger was born in 1833, six years after Beethoven died. Moreover, I've read in biographical material that Beethoven was not conventionally handsome, and I've also read that, following Beethoven's death, his image was idealized and Romanticized throughout the rest of the nineteenth century. (Sorry no reference sources on these two points, but I can look them up for you if you insist.)
With this in mind, I propose that we should post the Hofel portrait, that is, the "ugly" one. This is because we are supposed to be a scholarly work, and therefore should post the portrait that has the best chance of being realistic--even if it is not the portrait that people are most familiar with. The over-handsome, Romanticized portrait by Jäger might be work keeping, too--but only as an illustration of what the later 19th century thought about Beethoven.
Please note that a very similar discussion has taken place before (posted here) concerning rival portraits of Mozart. In this case, the from-composer's-lifetime, most-likely-to-be-accurate portrait did win out in the end. So I propose we follow precedent, and do the same for the Beethoven portrait.
Thanks for listening, Opus33 23:05, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
The Jäger portrait was painted after the composer's death. Do you think Jäger could have painted an accurate picture of Beethoven? I think not. I would remove that portrait! I suggest this 1815 Mähler portrait [ [36]] or this Stieler one [ [37]]-- Stratford15 01:58, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
why don't you accept his real name "van" Beethoven in this article?
Surely that is not the way to say this? Style-wise I mean. It's vague and not encyclopedic. I would replace it by simply "Flemish". After the separation of the northern and southern Netherlands, I think Dutch would mean from the Northern Netherlands. Flemish is not very correct either since his father was from Brabant, but it seems Flemish is generally used to indicate this region too. Considering the quality of the article I hesitate to change this. Any reactions? Piet 15:26, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Is the current Ode To Joy media sample really the best we can do? When I downloaded it I was expecting the full ochestral impact, the rousing music that makes you want to go up to a complete stranger and hug them and then punch the air with a triumphant yell of solidarity! YEAH!! But all I got was a piano solo walking rather sedately across the main tune. It's supposed to be Ode To Joy not Ode To Insomnia. I don't mean any disrepect to whomever upoloaded this version, I mean OK it does go over the basic tune for those who don't know it. But the file for the first movement of his Fifth goes on for 7.5 minutes, surely we can do the same for Ode To Joy? -Stenun, 30 January, around half-eightish on a cold winter's evening
It seems to me that the short section on Beethoven's Legacy is biased and doesn't add much to this article. Ernest Ansermet was a highly regarded conductor and his Les Fondements de la Musique dans la Conscience Humaine was one of the first major books on the phenomenology of music. However, it also seems to be highly idiosyncratic and unrepresentative of generally accepted views. (See Otto Karolyi's Review in The Musical Times Vol. 106, No. 1464 (Feb. 1965), pp. 116-117, for example.) I haven't gotten my hands on a copy of it but, judging from the quotes I've read from the book, Ansermet's position involves defending the "natural laws" of tonal music (with their associations of spirituality, ethics, and freedom) against twelve-tone, serial composition. (See comments on the book in the Wikipedia article on Ernest Ansermet as well.) The phrase "incomprehensible modern atonal musical "language"" is hardly neutral and, moreover, doesn't say anything about Beethoven: it's merely a cheap (and unsupported) shot at Schoenberg. If by "Beethoven's legacy", we mean "what people think of Beethoven's importance today", then we are opening up a vast field which ought to include references to multiple, significant viewpoints, for example Adorno's take on the relationship between Beethoven and Hegel. As it stands, though, I think Beethoven's musical legacy is already well represented by the article on his musical style and innovations. My view is that the current paragraph on Beethoven's legacy should either be moved to the page on Ansermet (if it forms a significant part of his philosophy) or deleted. What does everyone else think? JonathanDS 10:05, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
To move them , doesn't make the statements more wrong or right.They are very pertinent, especially because Beethoven's importance has been downplayed significantly since 1945 massively ("Entmythisierung") due to political reasons.Why have those people done that ? Some well-known spin doctors who control musicology wordlwide since 1945 have done it within the Boasian multiculturalism and the deceptive leftist Frankfurt school (see e.g. Kevin MacDonald, "The culture of critique,2002, essentially right despite of minor slips). 80.138.193.56 00:29, 2 February 2006 (UTC) .I will never stop to restore the section,please save your time and nerves. I know you do this with good intentions.But please get more informed first before you do harm to a good article. 80.138.193.56 00:32, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Never is a long time and there are editors with a much longer track record than yourself, SqueakBox 00:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Never is a short time if someone has a lot of conform disciples having diciples again who are eager to do this. 80.138.193.56 00:48, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
You've only been editing 24 hours. Why not sign into an account and become anonymous,
SqueakBox
00:51, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Is Derrida's deconstructionism your guide in formulating semantically paradox sentences (;-)) ? 80.138.193.56 00:54, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Nope. Either you are using an anonymizer or I can tell which city you are in,
SqueakBox
00:58, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Are you from the Tscheka ? I can tell you something new about Beethoven only.As you have nothing to do with Beethoven, please go back to the anthropological topics and don't troll around. 80.138.192.206 02:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Beethoven is unique in the most forceful expression of the masculine hero and his struggle., despite Mozart's universality and Bach's polyphonic compositorical skills and Schönberg's being a "titan"(?). For the leftists is :Beethoven=Bushmen music (Sanids)=Schönberg's atonality.
If you want to make a case for Beethoven's importance, just use a NPOV. As for myself, I agree with Makemi that at my conservatory it's taught that Beethoven's influence on future music was more important than any other composer's, and there is hardly need to argue that he is important. However, for encyclopedic purposes, it would be good to write something in this article about Beethoven's influence, which seems rather lacking. - Sesquialtera II 20:53, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Beethoven is widely regarded as one of history's supreme composers who produced notable works even after he completely lost his hearing.
is there a lot of competition for supreme composers that lost their hearing? :) It's not quite that bad, since it doesn't say "they lost their hearing", but I'll remove the ambiguity. - Sesquialtera II 20:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I only would like to have Ansermet's opinion included, no matter if someone believes in it or not . You are free to add other evaluations, I will delete not a single word of it as I have never done. As Ansermet was an important figure, I do not understand why his opinion which was clearly said to be his cannot be included here.Do you maybe fear Ansermet's opinion which is clearly within the spectrum of serious musicology ? 80.138.192.206 22:01, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Ansermet is an important music philosopher, I reverted it as I have read not one single serious statement of yours about it. 80.138.172.139 23:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
We are not disputing that Ansermet is an important music philosopher. I at least am disputing that his views on Beethoven are or should be the last word on the subject. Beethoven's "legacy" is a huge topic, and in my opinion it is a disservice to it to have the views of just one person as the basis of the whole thing. Also, it is completely unneccesary for there to be a denigration of other composers in order to make the point that Beethoven was great. Prove that he was great by positives, not by disrespecting other composers. Finally, just because you disagree with our arguments does not mean that they are not serious. You have not responded to anyone's comments specifically. Makemi 00:15, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Please feel free to add evaluations by others,I will not change a single word, but there is no need to exclude Ansermet.The deletion of the mere headline with the "under construction sign" shows me, that you want to avoid evaluations at all ,according to your leftists Boasian multicultural ideology .Do you really think , only sports achievements can be compared ? Maybe there is a big portion of self-deception involved in your case.You are confusing serious evaluations with grumbling. 80.138.172.139 01:32, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
What proof is there of this?
Prove Beethoven was of african or partial black/moor descent make your case and use refernces. No one gives a damn about your opinion.
Prove Beethoven was fully european make your case and use refernces. No one gives a dam about your opinion.
Now, please be civil. -- Stratford15 01:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the media file for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no. 3. As I said in the edit summary, it is only slightly better than a midi file. Staccatos are not used, the dynamic range is not nearly great enough, and to be honest the faster parts sound like nails being scraped on a blackboard. I don't think that's the best way to hear Beethoven, but I've left the file in the article for the sonata to serve as an example. Graham talk 12:26, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I am not the first to have removed the following from the article:
I propose it stays removed because, in my opinion, it is (a) recondite, (b) peripheral, (c) unencyclopedic, (d) unimportant, (e) opinion, (f) boring. Anyone have another opinion? -- RobertG ♬ talk 11:56, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Beethoven's contemporaries thought it worthy to mention his appearance. Apparently their descriptions are unpopular with modern scholars. Rather than have him look like a mulatto as he was described, modern scholars prefer to make him caucasion or faceless instead. The descritions of Grillparzer, Bettina Von Armin, Schindler, Ludwig, Hertz and his close friend Frau Fisher are completely ignored by modern scholars. So much so, that modern scholars would prefer to take the opinion of researchers who never met the man over those who did. Why? Since the writings of Beethoven's contemporaries cannot be erased, and since we have to study his contemporaries to understand Beethoven's life, then let's acknowledge all of their observations about this wonderful man. Tom Apr 2006.
This user also re-added a paragraph on Beethoven's legacy. It looks ok to me on first glance, but I'd appreciate it if people would double check it. Thanks, Mak emi 18:54, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Tom, let it go. Beethoven wasn't black, and we've already discussed these descriptions. --
Jugbo
01:31, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Truth seeking is more important than reaching a consensus despite being a wikipedia principle.Because by consensus , truth seeking should be made possible. Please read the lenghty sources first and judge later, anything else is unscientific. You believe in an ideology developed by Franz Boas single-handedly due to Jewish group interests being harmful to the Western White majority.After reading the sources and additional material (e.g. Kevin B. MacDonald "The Culture of Critique",2002) ,you will see that my edits present reality correctly. Then you can modify my edits and write lenghty comments , but we won't accept a leftist censorship.My disciples and I will never accept that, besides it is un-American (think of what Thomas Jefferson said about the freedom of speech). 80.138.169.47 18:36, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
What's America got to do with Beethoven. He was German, lived in Austria and I wasn't aware of any US connections, so an article about Beethoven should hopefully be European in orientation, ie specifically unAmerican, Ras Billy I 01:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Note: gnetwerker is not consistent (according to e.g Wzhoa533) , he first re-edited our racial pedomorphosis statement explicitly before he denied that he had ever done so.This shows only the leftist helplessness in combining reality with leftist ideology.While I am a decent scientist promoting the natural interests of the authochthonous European people in their homeland, leftist ideologists like gnetwerker are responsible for the decline of the West. Do you deconstructionists really doubt that e.g. Franz Boas had a strong Jewish self-identification and developed multi-culturalism single-handedly ? 80.138.169.47 19:50, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
As a typical leftist American intellectual , you have only an atomized knowledge in a special field (s. e.g. Geoffrey Gorer, "Americans" for this general problemacy) being helpless in 99% of science and all important matters as cosmology, nonexistence of God,anthropology, physics, culture etc. You are unable to acknowledge the following truth while aping the leftist mainstream: 1. Beethoven was an Alpinid , 2. there are about 36 human races/stirpes/taxa etc.
3. race informs culture/music , 4. there are significant statistical differences in intellectual capacity between these taxa. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence, but the lazy (according to your own statement) leftist maybe is a too weak mind (femininity ?) to acknowledge this.
80.138.128.153 02:09, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
You can only make your point because there are 100 more leftist apers helping you.
80.138.128.153
02:12, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
]]
He certainly is trying to promote the idea of Americanism, bizarre in an article about Beethoven. If he is trying to promote the idea of the superiority of the white races he is trying to promote an idea that the humanist Beethoven forcefully rejected, ie that not all men (people) are equal. Whoever heard of Beethoven being a conservative anyway? Ras Billy I 01:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following from the article today:
I don't think it belongs, and even if it does (i.e. if it is true), this kind of detail should go in the satellite article Life and work of Ludwig van Beethoven. To include it we need a cite; I haven't heard this before, but maybe there's some legitimate research on this. At any rate, leaping from a diagnosis of bipolar disorder (not "rare" by a long shot, by the way) to a "you can hear it in Fur Elise and the Fifth Symphony" is original research. I don't think you need to explain dramatic contrast in the work of a famous composer by correlating it with a mental disorder. See Occam's Razor. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 18:42, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I boldly recast introduction. It said almost nothing about his biography, which I think needs at least a sentence or two coverage. I worry that the section on "his most widely recognized compositions" is someone's opinion, or possibly WP:OR - it seems to me to require at least a reference. I do not necessarily disagree with the choice of works listed - but does "recognized" here mean "recognized as Beethoven by the man on the Clapham omnibus", or does it mean "the man on the Clapham omnibus would be able to name the work while listening to it", or does it mean "your average keen western-classical-music lover would recognize the work"? If the first meaning is intended then a case could probably be made for adding the Triple Concerto, the last movement of the Waldstein, bits of the Septet, the Spring sonata, the fourth Piano Concerto, and bits of the Archduke trio, but if the last meaning is intended then most of us who are interested would probably be able to name at least a third of his opus from hearing a fragment of each piece anyway, and we would probably recognise as Beethoven much more. I think the editors of this article mostly probably fall into this last category, and are therefore the last people who should be expressing opinions on "what people recognize". What do others think? -- RobertG ♬ talk 09:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
An editor has removed the {{ fact}} template from the "most widely recognised compositions" paragraph. I have already outlined my concerns above. Can we reach a consensus on, firstly, recognised by whom, and secondly what works to list. Even given that we can come to agreement, I still worry that without WP:V it is WP:OR. -- RobertG ♬ talk 09:20, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems as if there is no discussion on the topic but there should be some to get the issue resolved. People who claim Beethoven of Slavic and other European origins provided no sources to substantiate their claims. From a non-bias point of view I would have to say that as it stands more evidence(using sources not simply opinion) has been provided in this discussion page to support that Beethoven was moor or such. The people who claim Beethoven was Flemish or Slavic have not provided one source which leads me to believe one of two things. You are pulling it out of your ass. You are simply asserting Beethoven is not moor because you assume if he is from Europe he must be a European, which is an unfair assumption to make and is based on your opnion not historical fact. I don't give a dam what race he is but I will delete any mention of Beethoven origins that does not provide a source because no one here has ever talked to Beethoven and asked him personally.
There is evidence Ronald Reagan and Queen Elizabeth and Pablo Picasso and George Bernard Shaw were all white. There is also no evidence they are moors. If someone where to claim Queen Elizabeth as a moor I would ask for proof, like how I ask for proof from both sides for Beethoven, there is no evidence, no books, no documentary to suggest that Elizabeth is moor. On top of that if people who argued that Elizabeth was moor, simply asserted her moorness, and refuted all of the proofs that she was white simply because they had none that shows she was moor, then I would have no choice but to conclude that she was white. Apply that to Beethoven and I have no choice except to accept that he was moor. There has been not one ounce of proof, even questionable white supremcist website proof, google searches, that have suggested Beethoven was white. I'm all open to any evidence of it, but there has been none provided. The argument that Beethoven is white is an assertion made based on peoples opnion and no fact(no sources), simply their assumptions that he must be white because he is from Europe. The people who claim the Beethoven is white have provided no proof and say all the books written on the subject that says he is moor, are simply based on heresay of 200 years. Well a book that says Beethoven is moor written by his teacher is alot more convincing than the opnion you just pulled out of your ass.
The research team also said that future DNA analysis might answer lingering questions about Beethoven's ethnicity. As a young man, the dark-complexioned Beethoven sometimes was called "the Moor," and some historians have questioned whether he had African blood. Walsh said his analysis of the hair strands showed "no wrinkles or bends" typical among people of African descent, but that more tests may be conducted.
The uploaded ogg-file is of very low musical quality, and should be deleted.
If Beethoven's late works sound nothing like his Romantic contemporaries (i.e. Weber, Schubert), what do they sound like, works of later Romantic composers? Marcus 19:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
The strains of the Große Fuge, and the periodic silences in the late piano sonatas do not lend Beethoven the 'honour' of sounding like any of the works of later Romantic composers. Seeing as he knew not any of the great Romantic composers that followed his death, this question seems strange, perhaps one should seek to discover how 20th century music has been influenced by Beethoven? Stravinsky's famous quote on the Grosse Fuge springs to mind. an absolutely contemporary piece of music that will be contemporary forever. Gareth E Kegg 01:51, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
It's saddening to see that articles on Britney Spears or Opie and Anthony are considerably longer than Beethoven. Could someone please expand this article?
There's no point in expanding it for the sake of making it longer. There are more facts knowen about Britney Spears et al, I suspect. While many more books (at least books of value) have been written about Beethoven, it's not nessesarly Wikipedia material. Unless you think there are specific areas where info is lacking, I think it should stay as is, rather than adding filler material to make it bigger. — Soupisgoodfood 10:45, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
http://portal.unesco.org/ci/en/ev.php-URL_ID=7073&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html Perhaps this decision by the UNESCO regarding the Ninth Symphony is something important to add on this page--a testament to the universality of his music. - Spartan
RE: Among his most widely-recognized works are his Third (Eroica), Fifth, Sixth (Pastoral) and Ninth (Choral) symphonies (the last containing the "Ode to Joy"), his Piano Concerto No. 5 ("Emperor"), his Missa Solemnis, Wellington's Victory, his opera Leonore, his Violin Concerto, his Pathétique, Moonlight, Hammerklavier, Waldstein, and Appassionata piano sonatas, his Razumovsky quartets, and the bagatelle Für Elise.
This text is important, as it introduces the reader to some of the major works of Beethoven. It doesn't matter if the list expanded further either. It probably should be.
Beethoven's works, at least in the film about him were I remember, the Ninth last movement, Missa Solemnis Credo, the Eroica first movement, the Moonlight Sonata first movement, the Fifth, first and last movements, Leonore (later Fideleo) chorus in the final act. Someone here pointed out that Britney Spears has a bigger article than Beethoven. Well this will continue, if it keeps getting cut back. Wallie 09:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
At the risk of appearing pedantic, I've removed this paragraph from the lead:
Among his major works, some of which are instantly recognizable, are his Third (Eroica), Fifth, Sixth (Pastoral) and Ninth (Choral) symphonies (the last containing the "Ode to Joy"), his Piano Concerto No. 5 ("Emperor"), his Missa Solemnis, Wellington's Victory, his opera Leonore, his Violin Concerto, his Pathétique, Moonlight, Hammerklavier, Waldstein, and Appassionata piano sonatas, his Razumovsky quartets, and the bagatelle Für Elise.
Until today it said "most recognisable works" which was equally (if not more) problematic in my view (see discussions about this above). I have several concerns, and tentatively suggest we reach consensus here before it is put back. Firstly, what criteria are we using to define "major works"? By no stretch of the imagination is Wellingtons Sieg a major work! How can we include the Rasumovskys and not opp. 130, 131 and 133? How can we include piano concerto 5 and not 4? How can we include Fur Elise (which is, again, not a "major work") and not the Diabelli variations? And as it stands none of it is directly verifiable and all of it is original research unless someone can find a universally accepted and unimpeachable reference that says "X, Y and Z are his major works". I am all in favour of naming a few works in the lead, to lead people in, but no-one is going to plough through a long list, so the smaller the list (maybe 5 works?) the better.
My proposal is: can we agree there should be around 5 works named in the lead, what those 5 should be, and exactly how it should be phrased? Comments please. Can anyone see a way forward? -- RobertG ♬ talk 10:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes. I agree with you about Wellingons Sieg. I just happen to like it. So you can ditch that one if you like. It was more in the "recognizable" grouping. I would like more than five, but if it's cut back to five, then:
My five would be:
One from five different categories too. However, I hate throwing out some of the others, ie, all of them. Finally, best to resolve this quickly. Thanks. Wallie 10:43, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I've rearranged the list of music files section a bit. I hope that's ok. -- Eleassar my talk 13:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Needs a list of the CDs he has put out. 67.183.121.68
He retired to the studio in 1807, suffering from the difficult 'second album phase'. Either that, or the above is the dumbest comment I've ever read. Gareth E Kegg 23:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
In order to not get any edits I make deleted, I want to ask if this link could be added to the main Beethoven article page:
I thought this was a very useful site with only free sheet music. What do you think? -- Kylepiano 17:34, 3 July 2006 (UTC)