![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
In 1968 Edgar Ansel Mowrer wrote , copyrighted and published Triumph and Turmoil-A Personal History of our Time SBN 04 920026 .The London Publishers , George Allen & Unwin Ltd foresaw reproduction without permission for the purposes of study , research, criticism or review . Mowrer was the correspondent in Berlin from 1923-1933 for The Chicago Daily News and was authorised to employ two assistants, the second of whom was Otto Brok ,a " doctor of political sciences and a respected member of the (Catholic ) Centre Party. Mowrer mentions Brok a number of times in relation to the Centre Party , metaphysical discussion of German philosophers and news sources but the central purpose of including Brok would appear to be for this his link into the Catholic (centre) party . ......"Following the May 1932 elections Brok one morning rushed into the office in tears and shouting "It is all over , it is all over ". On Mowrer's asking for the cause of this distress ,Brok is reported as saying
"Last night at a meeting of the Centre Party, which I attended, our Party leader , Monsignor Kaas , read a letter from the Secretary of State at Rome , Cardinal Pacelli, whom you knew in Munich as nuncio." "The Cardinal wrote that the Pope was worried about the rise of communism in Germany and advised our Party to help make Hitler chancellor . The Zentrums [Centre Party] leaders agreed ," he sobbed "Yes , go on" I said. "But, Edgar , that means HItler in power! Hitler wants a new war and he will get it." Once more he broke into tears. "Otto, may I report the cardinal's message and the Party's decision to cooperate with the Nazis?" " 'Nein. It was a secret meeting . But you will see." Mowrer's text having referred to this previously as a betrayal of the Catholics, continues from this Brok testimony :
And see we did . From that day the Centre regularly supported Hitler . In November , the Party urged Hindenburg to take Hitler as chancellor . Even when in Febuary , 1933, the Catholics realised it was too late to hold him to the Constitution , they voted an Enabling act doing away with personal freedom , democracy and law in Germany . This they called clarifying the situation . ....." Fiamekeeper 06:54, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hitler%27s_Pope"
Are you really accusing someone of being an agent of the Vatican? john k 15:59, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I struggle against this person for months and years almost, all my cited references are slated as rubbish and you, sir , have until now not been prepared to do anything . Your statement after reading Tallet (?) was quite clear about the church's influence , you said Kaas was not proved to have done as Mowrer accuses, yet the import of your conclusion would back Mowrer and others up totally . Why do you not stand by your earlier resolved statement - I asked you repeatedly to enter this and you choose now ? I tell you that it is canonical law that requires someone to act as an agent of the vatican , and I note from this editor that everything he does is aimed at not wiki-cleanup , but vatican image clean-up . If I may say I think you have been dilatory in referring back to that book and to your own confirmation of the general historical analysis. I presume that directly asked to do so, perhaps you might be so impartial as to do so . No bullshit -if I may quote you . You are quite an exalted wikipedian and your comment is further required . I believe you should return to this , or does my eventual un-PC questioning of the motives of the most assiduous follower I have (and the Popes ) provide you with enough of an excuse ? I have never stated that this political connivance more than tipped the balance at 1933 , but it was conscious and of deepest consequence. Argument as to whether Kaas did or did not join in is frankly facetious following your intervention . Do you help , or do you approve of the str1977 policy , which he has explained to be that of the faith ? If you are a committed catholic , then your belief at this exact moment must choose between the words of romans and the inactions of Pope John Paul II and now B16 . Are you prepared to not be an agent of the faith but be on the side of truth ? Famekeeper 20:50, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
FK - I don't think the book I cited was at all clear as to the specific allegations you are claiming. It provided support to the idea that the Vatican agreed not to the dissolution of the Centre Party in exchange for the Concordat. Beyond that, you are imputing a lot of quid pro quo and imputing a great deal of significance to things that the book I quoted does not support. I would appreciate it if you quit using one brief quote from me on a limited subject to support your entire case. john k 22:24, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Dear FK,
I cannot agree with what you wrote about my or your past editing, but I am willing to let the past be past so I will not comment on it. Let me just state, that I'm not receiving money from anyone and doing all my editing completely on my own. Please refrain from accusing (and in our circumstances this cannot be done civilly) other editors (not only me, also others) from being part of some conspiracy.
I never questioned that you honestly believe that what you post is the historical truth and hence your intention is not to slander. But your interpretation is not beyond reproach and must be debatable (including a conclusion and not a perpetual debate).
As far as I see it, our arguments can be classified into several fields:
Now, points 3 and 4 are valid in their own right, but not really relevant to the scope of Wikipedia. You might dislike it, but Wiki is an encyclopedia. (Though I have repeatedly pointed out to you, why your "Question of the Law" reasoning is wrong, and can do it again, one final time.)
Points 1 and 2 is what we should discuss, since these are relevant to the entries here on Wiki and this is what I propose to do.
You mentioned several sources in support of your point and I am willing to check these, if you will provide exact references (page numbers, if you are using German editions, or the respective chapters). That goes for works of historiography, not for drama.
John Kenney has clarified that his book does not specifically supports your interpretation.
I have looked into Günther Lewy, but have found no support for your interpretation either (but you may point out some specific passages for re-reading)
Also, your quotes from Klemperer and even Mowrer didn't seem to necessarily support your interpretation.
If you will point me to the passages, I will look into Klemperer (German resistance against Hitler) or Mowrer (Germany puts back the clock) as well.
Any other books, I must first find out whether I have them accessible at the library. Sorry, if I can't read all your books cover to cover, but I am quite busy with other things (and as I said I'm not getting paid for this).
Another point (point 5, if you will) is your "Vatican exchange" section - it needs clarification and editing. This is a really interesting and much more rewarding field for contributing to wiki.
Please don't shout at me, if I say that I don't completely understand all passages, as I have written above. If you are German or have translated this from German, I am more than willing to have a look at the German wording and try to help in translating it into English. Also, if your German or German-speaking, I am quite open to a discussion in German, if that helps you.
Str1977 30 June 2005 09:53 (UTC)
See canonical legality @ Archive 1 at discussion on ' Hitler's Pope ' page Famekeeper 30 June 2005 21:59 (UTC)
Dear FK,
I don't have to dig up the canon law in the archive, because I think, we have sufficently debated them. I think I have repeatedly stated why your reasoning does not work. Actually I'm more interested in discussing facts and interpretation (points 1 and 2) - and I also would like you to finish the "Vatican exchange section" you have started. I don't know how to handle it edit-wise in its current state.
As for your books:
Sorry to say, but what I read in Lewy does not support your interpretation and Lewy is very critical of the Church.
What you cited from Klemperer does not support your interpretation.
Even what you quoted from Mowrer does not necessarily support your interpretation.
I want to look up your quotes from Klemperer and Mowrer too, so please provide page numbers (no German edition needed, I can access the English one).
And please stop using John Kenney again and again. He only stated that his book referred to a quid-pro-quo in the Concordat dealings, namely trade concordat for centre party. No one here ever disputed that. Even I, in my very first post directed to you, accepted that (my "sell the car to the robber" analogy). John's book however does not support any larger quid-pro-quo.
The thing I'm concerned about is your constant claim, that the Pope put Hitler in power, when he didn't. Neither did Pacelli. The German people, yes the middle classes and some reactionary and business circles, put him into power. Kaas also bears some blame, but he didn't have the purpose of making Hitler tyrant. His coalition negotiations were quite stupid and quite useful for Hitler. I think I included this into the Centre article (section: Between ...), and in a much broader way than it was there before.
This collaboration which assisted Hitler to power is what we disagree about and now we disagree about the meaning of the historians words. Klemperer ,for one, could not be clearer and would relate to all studies previous to his own . I fear I have to say that you are misrepresenting such historical qualifications . I am repeating that historians have seen a clear involvement by the church and its papacy in German politcs ,culminating in the quid pro quo between the Concordat , the dissolution of the centre Party Germany and the Enabling Act . Church authority ignored and denied and over-ruled its own clerics within Germany in order to achieve this . As you asked ,I present the links and texts of the 1917 and 1983 Canonical codes which clearly state that only with sanction could Kaas have had a 'political career' . These two very words in the article are specious in the extreme , as is all the obfuscation and evasion. It is very obvious given these texts I quote that the political injunction existed from at least 1917 and therefore referred to all the clerics and Popes in question . These come from [ [1]] the vatican and one assumes they are from the most up-dated version :
139
Herewith is canon 139 from the Pio-Benedictine 1917 Code . in French .taken from www.catho-org ,under similar fair use :[ [2]]
Part 4 says that function as an elected representative or member of a legislative body must not be sought or held by the clerical without papal permission , where there is a papal prohibition ; and in all other regions , not without "permission cumulative" from their superior or the superior of the region wherer the elections are held .
It was on the 9 th of June this year that Str1977 himself added the following reference to these subjects of christian and particularly here, Papal, collaboration with Hitlerism which concerns the actions and words of Monsignor Ludwig Kaas leader (chairman) of the Catholic (Centre)Party in Weimar(pre-Hitler) Germany :
which concerns the catholic Centre Party Germany vote to complete the required two thirds palrliamentary majority required to abolish democracy , in Berlin on 23 March 1933 and hand dictatorial power to Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party . I include the italicised 'oppose' for clarity and refer readers to all previous analysis /threads , but here I list the proven {church/divine/canonical/biblical/moral) injunctions :
Case proved -
This is not a POV /NPOV issue . Words have not yet been used to fully describe what this exactly has had in importance , and because the efects are remaining , viz, the Middle East , words may never finish describing the importance of this indescribable moment in history . I have limited myself as much as possible to the simple provision of the reports and of the histories assembled in the english language .
My threads everywhere elucidate the unfortunate souls . I am thinking of bringing , as it appears someone must , a simple canonical court case . I read recently , I think even here on the Wikipedia , that anyone can demand such an action , even the un-baptised. but can the un-christened ?
I am termed despicable by this valiantly opposing editor for repeating {the purely church law relevant to) the procedure soon to be imposed following a success in such a court case , but I think I can surmount that epithet . Will he however be prepared to specify the origin from whence he retrieves Kaas words , and supply them in the original tongue, and stand by his quotation of them in such a case ?
Who would like to be the advocate-or has one got to do everything around here ? How about you yourself , Str1977 ? Surely your claimed christian conscience requires you to take this case - if only to hope to save the church from the great scandal which they claim the ability to repair ? (see endless thread ) .
Answer and disprove , or recant like a christian should, or this must be nailed to the door, musn't it? The same goes for the catholic leader-(ship?)- whoever is in charge , undoubtedly the remarkably well placed and prepared Pope Benedict XVI - he the prince against darkness must help us back through into the light , surely , whatever shocking it may take ? Well done , editor Str1977!
Famekeeper 00:00, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Well FK, no case not proved!
But first of all, I must state that Wiki is no law court and we are not advocates and this is no trial. However, if you want to see it as such, you must allow for a defence and stop complaining about apologies.
Also, I never termed you "despicable" - I guess I called some edit you did so, but that doesn't mean that you're despicable. I'm a Christian - I distinguish between people and acts.
Now, as promised, here is the German text of Kaas reference to soul.
(from Die Protokolle der Reichstagsfraktion und des Fraktionsvorstands der Deutschen Zentrumspartei 1926-1933 (edited by Rudolf Morsey), in: Veröffentlichungen der Kommission für Zeitgeschichte Reihe A: Quellen, Band 9), Mainz 1969, page 630.) (also in: Rudolf Morsey (ed.): Das "Ermächtigunsgesetz" vom 24. März 1933, Göttingen 1968, page 26-27.)
You can read now for yourself what Kaas said (it's in the reported speech of protocol).
Your conclusions from that little quote I put in, unfortunately with a typo (superfluous "to") are unfounded. Kaas did not say "opposing" (your inclusion) is necessary to "preserve the soul". That might be your view or my view but from the quote not necessarily Kaas' view and from the context certainly not Kaas' view. He goes on to win the fraction for an unanimously vote in favour of the Act. Kaas certainly was aware that it was a problematic move, a move he didn't like (and hence my opposition to your quick jumping), especially since the "assurances" were not very reliable.
Also, even if your reasoning on the alleged excommunications were correct, you cannot base any case on a letter neither of us has read. We have only Mowrer's rendition of Brok's exlamations that night. That might be enough for some qualified inclusion into the article, which I conceded on the Centre party page, but not for any pseudo law suits (pseudo because this is no court and you're no canon lawyer or judge).
I won't complain much about that your dating of the letter is still off (and even May is not one year before the Enabling Act).
This much for your proven case. Str1977 16:30, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
One of the tenets of the Wikipedia is: "Assume good faith." I remind Famekeeper of that guideline. Famekeeper has posted: "I accuse - plainly, civilly and openly - this user of being an agent of the vatican, by his actions ,which are purely designed to erase the papal connection to the rise of Hitler and the Third Reich." I respectfully disagree with Famekeeper as to whether such a plain and open allegation is civil, but I will let others decide that. It is not an assumption of good faith. Do you have any actual evidence that Str1977 is an agent of the Vatican, or are you simply claiming that approximately one billion humans are agents of the Vatican, which has aspects of a conspiracy theory?
If you lost your temper (as humans will) and made a statement that is more extreme than you intended, then I suggest that you apologize.
I agree with you more than I do with Str1977 about Cornwell and Pope Pius XII. However, you are not likely to attract support by personal attacks. You are also not likely to attract support if you cannot provide concise summaries of what your cases are.
Robert McClenon 21:20, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Robert, but I don't demand an apology. What I'd like to have is FK finally accepting that I don't work for the Vatican, as I have stated repeatedly, and also FK stop accusing anyone contradicting him of being part of a conspiracy. I'm only a simple Catholic and a historian meaning protect accuracy. Unfortunately (and maybe we disagree there, Robert, but never mind) Pius XII is a historical person who has to suffer much slandering (don't jump, FK, I don't mean you) and "black-washing". You certainly don't have to be a fan of him or applaud everything he ever did or like his methods or style of handling things, but doesn't deserve this. Str1977 17:36, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
In 1968 Edgar Ansel Mowrer wrote , copyrighted and published Triumph and Turmoil-A Personal History of our Time SBN 04 920026 .The London Publishers , George Allen & Unwin Ltd foresaw reproduction without permission for the purposes of study , research, criticism or review . Mowrer was the correspondent in Berlin from 1923-1933 for The Chicago Daily News and was authorised to employ two assistants, the second of whom was Otto Brok ,a " doctor of political sciences and a respected member of the (Catholic ) Centre Party. Mowrer mentions Brok a number of times in relation to the Centre Party , metaphysical discussion of German philosophers and news sources but the central purpose of including Brok would appear to be for this his link into the Catholic (centre) party . ......"Following the May 1932 elections Brok one morning rushed into the office in tears and shouting "It is all over , it is all over ". On Mowrer's asking for the cause of this distress ,Brok is reported as saying
"Last night at a meeting of the Centre Party, which I attended, our Party leader , Monsignor Kaas , read a letter from the Secretary of State at Rome , Cardinal Pacelli, whom you knew in Munich as nuncio." "The Cardinal wrote that the Pope was worried about the rise of communism in Germany and advised our Party to help make Hitler chancellor . The Zentrums [Centre Party] leaders agreed ," he sobbed "Yes , go on" I said. "But, Edgar , that means HItler in power! Hitler wants a new war and he will get it." Once more he broke into tears. "Otto, may I report the cardinal's message and the Party's decision to cooperate with the Nazis?" " 'Nein. It was a secret meeting . But you will see." Mowrer's text having referred to this previously as a betrayal of the Catholics, continues from this Brok testimony :
And see we did . From that day the Centre regularly supported Hitler . In November , the Party urged Hindenburg to take Hitler as chancellor . Even when in Febuary , 1933, the Catholics realised it was too late to hold him to the Constitution , they voted an Enabling act doing away with personal freedom , democracy and law in Germany . This they called clarifying the situation . ....." Fiamekeeper 06:54, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hitler%27s_Pope"
Are you really accusing someone of being an agent of the Vatican? john k 15:59, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I struggle against this person for months and years almost, all my cited references are slated as rubbish and you, sir , have until now not been prepared to do anything . Your statement after reading Tallet (?) was quite clear about the church's influence , you said Kaas was not proved to have done as Mowrer accuses, yet the import of your conclusion would back Mowrer and others up totally . Why do you not stand by your earlier resolved statement - I asked you repeatedly to enter this and you choose now ? I tell you that it is canonical law that requires someone to act as an agent of the vatican , and I note from this editor that everything he does is aimed at not wiki-cleanup , but vatican image clean-up . If I may say I think you have been dilatory in referring back to that book and to your own confirmation of the general historical analysis. I presume that directly asked to do so, perhaps you might be so impartial as to do so . No bullshit -if I may quote you . You are quite an exalted wikipedian and your comment is further required . I believe you should return to this , or does my eventual un-PC questioning of the motives of the most assiduous follower I have (and the Popes ) provide you with enough of an excuse ? I have never stated that this political connivance more than tipped the balance at 1933 , but it was conscious and of deepest consequence. Argument as to whether Kaas did or did not join in is frankly facetious following your intervention . Do you help , or do you approve of the str1977 policy , which he has explained to be that of the faith ? If you are a committed catholic , then your belief at this exact moment must choose between the words of romans and the inactions of Pope John Paul II and now B16 . Are you prepared to not be an agent of the faith but be on the side of truth ? Famekeeper 20:50, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
FK - I don't think the book I cited was at all clear as to the specific allegations you are claiming. It provided support to the idea that the Vatican agreed not to the dissolution of the Centre Party in exchange for the Concordat. Beyond that, you are imputing a lot of quid pro quo and imputing a great deal of significance to things that the book I quoted does not support. I would appreciate it if you quit using one brief quote from me on a limited subject to support your entire case. john k 22:24, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Dear FK,
I cannot agree with what you wrote about my or your past editing, but I am willing to let the past be past so I will not comment on it. Let me just state, that I'm not receiving money from anyone and doing all my editing completely on my own. Please refrain from accusing (and in our circumstances this cannot be done civilly) other editors (not only me, also others) from being part of some conspiracy.
I never questioned that you honestly believe that what you post is the historical truth and hence your intention is not to slander. But your interpretation is not beyond reproach and must be debatable (including a conclusion and not a perpetual debate).
As far as I see it, our arguments can be classified into several fields:
Now, points 3 and 4 are valid in their own right, but not really relevant to the scope of Wikipedia. You might dislike it, but Wiki is an encyclopedia. (Though I have repeatedly pointed out to you, why your "Question of the Law" reasoning is wrong, and can do it again, one final time.)
Points 1 and 2 is what we should discuss, since these are relevant to the entries here on Wiki and this is what I propose to do.
You mentioned several sources in support of your point and I am willing to check these, if you will provide exact references (page numbers, if you are using German editions, or the respective chapters). That goes for works of historiography, not for drama.
John Kenney has clarified that his book does not specifically supports your interpretation.
I have looked into Günther Lewy, but have found no support for your interpretation either (but you may point out some specific passages for re-reading)
Also, your quotes from Klemperer and even Mowrer didn't seem to necessarily support your interpretation.
If you will point me to the passages, I will look into Klemperer (German resistance against Hitler) or Mowrer (Germany puts back the clock) as well.
Any other books, I must first find out whether I have them accessible at the library. Sorry, if I can't read all your books cover to cover, but I am quite busy with other things (and as I said I'm not getting paid for this).
Another point (point 5, if you will) is your "Vatican exchange" section - it needs clarification and editing. This is a really interesting and much more rewarding field for contributing to wiki.
Please don't shout at me, if I say that I don't completely understand all passages, as I have written above. If you are German or have translated this from German, I am more than willing to have a look at the German wording and try to help in translating it into English. Also, if your German or German-speaking, I am quite open to a discussion in German, if that helps you.
Str1977 30 June 2005 09:53 (UTC)
See canonical legality @ Archive 1 at discussion on ' Hitler's Pope ' page Famekeeper 30 June 2005 21:59 (UTC)
Dear FK,
I don't have to dig up the canon law in the archive, because I think, we have sufficently debated them. I think I have repeatedly stated why your reasoning does not work. Actually I'm more interested in discussing facts and interpretation (points 1 and 2) - and I also would like you to finish the "Vatican exchange section" you have started. I don't know how to handle it edit-wise in its current state.
As for your books:
Sorry to say, but what I read in Lewy does not support your interpretation and Lewy is very critical of the Church.
What you cited from Klemperer does not support your interpretation.
Even what you quoted from Mowrer does not necessarily support your interpretation.
I want to look up your quotes from Klemperer and Mowrer too, so please provide page numbers (no German edition needed, I can access the English one).
And please stop using John Kenney again and again. He only stated that his book referred to a quid-pro-quo in the Concordat dealings, namely trade concordat for centre party. No one here ever disputed that. Even I, in my very first post directed to you, accepted that (my "sell the car to the robber" analogy). John's book however does not support any larger quid-pro-quo.
The thing I'm concerned about is your constant claim, that the Pope put Hitler in power, when he didn't. Neither did Pacelli. The German people, yes the middle classes and some reactionary and business circles, put him into power. Kaas also bears some blame, but he didn't have the purpose of making Hitler tyrant. His coalition negotiations were quite stupid and quite useful for Hitler. I think I included this into the Centre article (section: Between ...), and in a much broader way than it was there before.
This collaboration which assisted Hitler to power is what we disagree about and now we disagree about the meaning of the historians words. Klemperer ,for one, could not be clearer and would relate to all studies previous to his own . I fear I have to say that you are misrepresenting such historical qualifications . I am repeating that historians have seen a clear involvement by the church and its papacy in German politcs ,culminating in the quid pro quo between the Concordat , the dissolution of the centre Party Germany and the Enabling Act . Church authority ignored and denied and over-ruled its own clerics within Germany in order to achieve this . As you asked ,I present the links and texts of the 1917 and 1983 Canonical codes which clearly state that only with sanction could Kaas have had a 'political career' . These two very words in the article are specious in the extreme , as is all the obfuscation and evasion. It is very obvious given these texts I quote that the political injunction existed from at least 1917 and therefore referred to all the clerics and Popes in question . These come from [ [1]] the vatican and one assumes they are from the most up-dated version :
139
Herewith is canon 139 from the Pio-Benedictine 1917 Code . in French .taken from www.catho-org ,under similar fair use :[ [2]]
Part 4 says that function as an elected representative or member of a legislative body must not be sought or held by the clerical without papal permission , where there is a papal prohibition ; and in all other regions , not without "permission cumulative" from their superior or the superior of the region wherer the elections are held .
It was on the 9 th of June this year that Str1977 himself added the following reference to these subjects of christian and particularly here, Papal, collaboration with Hitlerism which concerns the actions and words of Monsignor Ludwig Kaas leader (chairman) of the Catholic (Centre)Party in Weimar(pre-Hitler) Germany :
which concerns the catholic Centre Party Germany vote to complete the required two thirds palrliamentary majority required to abolish democracy , in Berlin on 23 March 1933 and hand dictatorial power to Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party . I include the italicised 'oppose' for clarity and refer readers to all previous analysis /threads , but here I list the proven {church/divine/canonical/biblical/moral) injunctions :
Case proved -
This is not a POV /NPOV issue . Words have not yet been used to fully describe what this exactly has had in importance , and because the efects are remaining , viz, the Middle East , words may never finish describing the importance of this indescribable moment in history . I have limited myself as much as possible to the simple provision of the reports and of the histories assembled in the english language .
My threads everywhere elucidate the unfortunate souls . I am thinking of bringing , as it appears someone must , a simple canonical court case . I read recently , I think even here on the Wikipedia , that anyone can demand such an action , even the un-baptised. but can the un-christened ?
I am termed despicable by this valiantly opposing editor for repeating {the purely church law relevant to) the procedure soon to be imposed following a success in such a court case , but I think I can surmount that epithet . Will he however be prepared to specify the origin from whence he retrieves Kaas words , and supply them in the original tongue, and stand by his quotation of them in such a case ?
Who would like to be the advocate-or has one got to do everything around here ? How about you yourself , Str1977 ? Surely your claimed christian conscience requires you to take this case - if only to hope to save the church from the great scandal which they claim the ability to repair ? (see endless thread ) .
Answer and disprove , or recant like a christian should, or this must be nailed to the door, musn't it? The same goes for the catholic leader-(ship?)- whoever is in charge , undoubtedly the remarkably well placed and prepared Pope Benedict XVI - he the prince against darkness must help us back through into the light , surely , whatever shocking it may take ? Well done , editor Str1977!
Famekeeper 00:00, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Well FK, no case not proved!
But first of all, I must state that Wiki is no law court and we are not advocates and this is no trial. However, if you want to see it as such, you must allow for a defence and stop complaining about apologies.
Also, I never termed you "despicable" - I guess I called some edit you did so, but that doesn't mean that you're despicable. I'm a Christian - I distinguish between people and acts.
Now, as promised, here is the German text of Kaas reference to soul.
(from Die Protokolle der Reichstagsfraktion und des Fraktionsvorstands der Deutschen Zentrumspartei 1926-1933 (edited by Rudolf Morsey), in: Veröffentlichungen der Kommission für Zeitgeschichte Reihe A: Quellen, Band 9), Mainz 1969, page 630.) (also in: Rudolf Morsey (ed.): Das "Ermächtigunsgesetz" vom 24. März 1933, Göttingen 1968, page 26-27.)
You can read now for yourself what Kaas said (it's in the reported speech of protocol).
Your conclusions from that little quote I put in, unfortunately with a typo (superfluous "to") are unfounded. Kaas did not say "opposing" (your inclusion) is necessary to "preserve the soul". That might be your view or my view but from the quote not necessarily Kaas' view and from the context certainly not Kaas' view. He goes on to win the fraction for an unanimously vote in favour of the Act. Kaas certainly was aware that it was a problematic move, a move he didn't like (and hence my opposition to your quick jumping), especially since the "assurances" were not very reliable.
Also, even if your reasoning on the alleged excommunications were correct, you cannot base any case on a letter neither of us has read. We have only Mowrer's rendition of Brok's exlamations that night. That might be enough for some qualified inclusion into the article, which I conceded on the Centre party page, but not for any pseudo law suits (pseudo because this is no court and you're no canon lawyer or judge).
I won't complain much about that your dating of the letter is still off (and even May is not one year before the Enabling Act).
This much for your proven case. Str1977 16:30, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
One of the tenets of the Wikipedia is: "Assume good faith." I remind Famekeeper of that guideline. Famekeeper has posted: "I accuse - plainly, civilly and openly - this user of being an agent of the vatican, by his actions ,which are purely designed to erase the papal connection to the rise of Hitler and the Third Reich." I respectfully disagree with Famekeeper as to whether such a plain and open allegation is civil, but I will let others decide that. It is not an assumption of good faith. Do you have any actual evidence that Str1977 is an agent of the Vatican, or are you simply claiming that approximately one billion humans are agents of the Vatican, which has aspects of a conspiracy theory?
If you lost your temper (as humans will) and made a statement that is more extreme than you intended, then I suggest that you apologize.
I agree with you more than I do with Str1977 about Cornwell and Pope Pius XII. However, you are not likely to attract support by personal attacks. You are also not likely to attract support if you cannot provide concise summaries of what your cases are.
Robert McClenon 21:20, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Robert, but I don't demand an apology. What I'd like to have is FK finally accepting that I don't work for the Vatican, as I have stated repeatedly, and also FK stop accusing anyone contradicting him of being part of a conspiracy. I'm only a simple Catholic and a historian meaning protect accuracy. Unfortunately (and maybe we disagree there, Robert, but never mind) Pius XII is a historical person who has to suffer much slandering (don't jump, FK, I don't mean you) and "black-washing". You certainly don't have to be a fan of him or applaud everything he ever did or like his methods or style of handling things, but doesn't deserve this. Str1977 17:36, 19 July 2005 (UTC)