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Ok -- WHAT THE HECK is this doing here? This has got to be one of the best -- an article about someone famous's non-famous grandfather. Will it ever end? JHK
My vote is to delete -- asking for others, waiting till Tuesday, April 2. JHK
Well, "Wiki is not paper" and it is unlikely to cause a ambiguity problem...but is it useful knowledge? --rmhermen
I vote to keep Copernicus's grandfather, unless server space becomes an issue. It's really mental clutter that I'm worried about. Now, my own grandfather or great-grandfather might not be important -- compared to Copernicus (see Copernican Revolution, an article which if it doesn't exist, should) -- but the immediate ancestry of famous people is often of interest. It sheds light on the character or circumstances of the famous person. User:Ed Poor
Removed all discussion of Lucas Watzenrode the Younger, Bp. of Ermland, because it was cribbed, badly re-written and, most importantly, did not belong in an article on Lucas Watzenrode the Elder. JHK
I agree with JHK - I vote to delete. Famous people's relatives who have no significance other than relationship do not warrant a page of their own. I also agree with MichaelTinkler's comment above - if the information didn't warrant a mention or even a link in the Nicolaus Copernicus page, then it doesn't deserve a page of its own. Sure we are interested in his background, in what contributed to forming his character, but the date of his father's marriage and the names of all his rellies? This is really too trivial!!! Graham Chapman
Hey, having just read all of the controversy about this article, I'm dying to read it! Only it's gone away... :(
Wiki is not paper! No, really, it isn't! Ah, come on, I'd be interested in reading about this chap, and that seems to me a good enough reason to have an article on him. :) -- Oliver P. 19:15 Feb 7, 2003 (UTC)
Lucas Watzenrode was indeed an important person in Polish history. But it wasn’t Copernicus’ grandpa, but uncle. More than half of the article is about him already (this article even links to the other Watzenrode in Polish Wiki). Moreover, the information about him here is false and POV, and evidently written in a manner that would help the creator proving Copernicus nationality in favour of German:
Copernicus had an uncle, his mother's brother, also named Lucas Watzenrode, who as bishop of Ermeland strongly supported the independence of Ermeland and helped raise Nicolaus and his brother after their father's death.
Copernicus' uncle Lucas Watzenrode followed as bishop of Ermland, when the bishop Nicolaus Tungen died in 1489. Bishops were also secular rulers of the land. Lucas Watzenrode had been elected, but Casimir IV, king of Poland etc. did not wish him to be bishop. Casimir IV wanted his son Friedrich to become bishop, to invalidate the Teutonic Knights government and to be able to force Prussia to unite with Poland. Watzenrode however was ordained by the pope as bishop and ruler of Ermland, a part of Prussia, but then an excempt bishopric. The Prussian nobility, Teutonic Knights and a section of the Polish clergy supported him. Polish king Casimir IV did continue with conquest attempts and in 1492 he planned to remove Watzenrode by military force. His death foiled this plan. Watzenrode now was able to have a cordial neighborly working relationship with the sons of Casimir IV, Jan I Olbracht, then Aleksander Jagiellończyk, then Zygmunt I Stary. At times he was adviser to them. He had a good working relationship with the Teutonic Knights, but when necessary, upheld the independend status of Ermeland.
Watzenrode strongly supported incorporation of Warmia into Poland. He was even chosen a bishop as a person who would be seen kindly by Polish king, because his father supported Poland during Thirteen Years' War against Teutonic Order. It even says that he payed for Copernicus' studies. I wonder which one (Jagiellon University?), because those in Italy were payed by Polish king. I suggest rewriting the article so that it would be about bishop Lucas Watzenrode born 1447 and NPOVing the information.-- SylwiaS | talk 19:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I hope there will be no confusion anymore with these two personaleties who shared the same name.-- Dagox 09:56, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Someone categorized Lucas Watzenrode the Elder, a merchant, as a "canon of Warmia" and "canon of Włocławek." Could this be a confusion of the father with the churchman son of the same name, Lucas Watzenrode?
I have deleted the two "canon" categories for Lucas Watzenrode the Elder. If I am mistaken, please reinstate them. Nihil novi ( talk) 21:51, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Ok -- WHAT THE HECK is this doing here? This has got to be one of the best -- an article about someone famous's non-famous grandfather. Will it ever end? JHK
My vote is to delete -- asking for others, waiting till Tuesday, April 2. JHK
Well, "Wiki is not paper" and it is unlikely to cause a ambiguity problem...but is it useful knowledge? --rmhermen
I vote to keep Copernicus's grandfather, unless server space becomes an issue. It's really mental clutter that I'm worried about. Now, my own grandfather or great-grandfather might not be important -- compared to Copernicus (see Copernican Revolution, an article which if it doesn't exist, should) -- but the immediate ancestry of famous people is often of interest. It sheds light on the character or circumstances of the famous person. User:Ed Poor
Removed all discussion of Lucas Watzenrode the Younger, Bp. of Ermland, because it was cribbed, badly re-written and, most importantly, did not belong in an article on Lucas Watzenrode the Elder. JHK
I agree with JHK - I vote to delete. Famous people's relatives who have no significance other than relationship do not warrant a page of their own. I also agree with MichaelTinkler's comment above - if the information didn't warrant a mention or even a link in the Nicolaus Copernicus page, then it doesn't deserve a page of its own. Sure we are interested in his background, in what contributed to forming his character, but the date of his father's marriage and the names of all his rellies? This is really too trivial!!! Graham Chapman
Hey, having just read all of the controversy about this article, I'm dying to read it! Only it's gone away... :(
Wiki is not paper! No, really, it isn't! Ah, come on, I'd be interested in reading about this chap, and that seems to me a good enough reason to have an article on him. :) -- Oliver P. 19:15 Feb 7, 2003 (UTC)
Lucas Watzenrode was indeed an important person in Polish history. But it wasn’t Copernicus’ grandpa, but uncle. More than half of the article is about him already (this article even links to the other Watzenrode in Polish Wiki). Moreover, the information about him here is false and POV, and evidently written in a manner that would help the creator proving Copernicus nationality in favour of German:
Copernicus had an uncle, his mother's brother, also named Lucas Watzenrode, who as bishop of Ermeland strongly supported the independence of Ermeland and helped raise Nicolaus and his brother after their father's death.
Copernicus' uncle Lucas Watzenrode followed as bishop of Ermland, when the bishop Nicolaus Tungen died in 1489. Bishops were also secular rulers of the land. Lucas Watzenrode had been elected, but Casimir IV, king of Poland etc. did not wish him to be bishop. Casimir IV wanted his son Friedrich to become bishop, to invalidate the Teutonic Knights government and to be able to force Prussia to unite with Poland. Watzenrode however was ordained by the pope as bishop and ruler of Ermland, a part of Prussia, but then an excempt bishopric. The Prussian nobility, Teutonic Knights and a section of the Polish clergy supported him. Polish king Casimir IV did continue with conquest attempts and in 1492 he planned to remove Watzenrode by military force. His death foiled this plan. Watzenrode now was able to have a cordial neighborly working relationship with the sons of Casimir IV, Jan I Olbracht, then Aleksander Jagiellończyk, then Zygmunt I Stary. At times he was adviser to them. He had a good working relationship with the Teutonic Knights, but when necessary, upheld the independend status of Ermeland.
Watzenrode strongly supported incorporation of Warmia into Poland. He was even chosen a bishop as a person who would be seen kindly by Polish king, because his father supported Poland during Thirteen Years' War against Teutonic Order. It even says that he payed for Copernicus' studies. I wonder which one (Jagiellon University?), because those in Italy were payed by Polish king. I suggest rewriting the article so that it would be about bishop Lucas Watzenrode born 1447 and NPOVing the information.-- SylwiaS | talk 19:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I hope there will be no confusion anymore with these two personaleties who shared the same name.-- Dagox 09:56, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Someone categorized Lucas Watzenrode the Elder, a merchant, as a "canon of Warmia" and "canon of Włocławek." Could this be a confusion of the father with the churchman son of the same name, Lucas Watzenrode?
I have deleted the two "canon" categories for Lucas Watzenrode the Elder. If I am mistaken, please reinstate them. Nihil novi ( talk) 21:51, 7 June 2009 (UTC)