Maybe you should do that with flatlist instead? Also, try to not to add too many bullet points because it can make the separate lines jumbled. --
K. Peake13:09, 31 December 2020 (UTC)reply
"At Electric Lady, he held" → "At Electric Lady Studios, he held"
The studio is mentioned in full in the earlier paragraph, and it is commonly referred to as "Electric Lady". Also, on mobile devices, the infobox follows the first paragraph and mentions the studio as "Electric Lady". It is also better to not make that sentence any longer than it already is, IMO.
isento (
talk)
11:43, 31 December 2020 (UTC)reply
"with a live band featuring the trumpeter" → "with a live band that featured trumpeter" to stop over usage of "the"
"The" is a common article, and as mentioned above I made an effort to avoid false titles. I would be more concerned with using too many verbal constructions in a single sentence, like "held" then "featured" then "enlisted"...
isento (
talk)
11:43, 31 December 2020 (UTC)reply
"the drummer Steve McKie, and the pianist" → "drummer Steve McKie, and pianist"
"one of several former classmates" I know this part is in reference to Glasper and that Thomas was a classmate too, but was McKie one as well? If yes, then try to reword this, if otherwise then keep as it is.
"continued to lobby the album" → "continued to lobby it"
"It" may be too vague for readers, by chance they don't connect or understand "lobby", which can mean "lobby" the album, or "lobby" the label.
isento (
talk)
11:43, 31 December 2020 (UTC)reply
A common issue I noticed with the lead is that there are too many uses of "the album" and "it" in the paras; try to only write "the album" once for each para and do not use "it" consecutively, even though it can be used more than once in a para. --
K. Peake13:09, 31 December 2020 (UTC)reply
"by shelving Love for Sale's commercial release" → "by shelving its commercial release"
It is good to mention the album's name once in the paragraph, and in this place, it feels most appropriate. Also, "it" can be too vague to discern whether it is the leaked mix that is being referred to or the planned album in the abstract.
isento (
talk)
11:43, 31 December 2020 (UTC)reply
"to tour performing its songs" → "to perform the songs on tour"
This makes the connection less direct. The touring, rather than merely performing the songs on an otherwise unrelated tour, was a direct result of the leak's popularity, as he says: "We were able to tour off that album..."
isento (
talk)
11:43, 31 December 2020 (UTC)reply
"He tells Vibe magazine" → "Bilal told Vibe magazine" since any sources that are not citing books/newspapers themselves should use past tense for this context
"The label acquiesced to" → "The record label acquiesced in"
"The" indicates something the speaker has already mentioned, or something uniquely specific (
Article (grammar)#Definite article). This is not the case here, as "jam sessions" is firstly introduced here and said in a general sense -- no indication that all sessions previously discussed were jam sessions.
isento (
talk)
10:10, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"McKie recalls walking into the studio" → "McKie recalled walking into Electric Lady Studios" since the source mentions it being that studio
"with recording techniques at the studio," → "with recording techniques in the studio,"
"from jazz and the blues, influenced by" → "from jazz and blues, being influenced by"
The source's phrasing suggests the arrangements, rather than Bilal, were inspired by those artists. The introduction of "being" would connote otherwise.
isento (
talk)
10:10, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"and the bassist-composer" → "and bassist-composer"
"who assisted the production" → "who assisted the production of Love for Sale" to be specific
"the singer explains." → "the singer explained."
Remove target on hip hop
"Common and the vocal group" → "Common and vocal group"
"McKie recalls of the sampler." → "McKie recalled of the sampler."
"entire process making Love for Sale, Bilal says he" → "entire process of making Love for Sale, Bilal said he"
"the album-opening "Something to Hold on To"" → "Love for Sale's opening track "Something to Hold on To""
I think the current wording avoids the tongue-twisting double L-word possibility. And I don't see a grammatical issue with either.
isento (
talk)
11:09, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
The main issue here is that it has been too long since you have mentioned the album's title; any form of wording that includes the title would be acceptable. --
K. Peake12:16, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"Bilal presented the album" → "Bilal presented Love for Sale"
"he tells" → "he told"
"offered a similar reaction." → "offered a similar reaction;"
This is not essential, and would require lower-casing the next word, which would appear strange when the next quote is upper case.
isento (
talk)
11:59, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"from his first album, the premier" → "from 1st Born Second, the premiere"
"was expected in September of that year," → "was expected in September 2005," because otherwise it leads to confusion about what year the expectation was in
This is not his real name though and since he is only mentioned thrice in the article plus not consecutively, you should use the full stage name on each occasion. --
K. Peake12:16, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"could end in the album" → "could lead to Love for Sale"
"Love for Sale" appears over 50 times in this article, compared to 32 for "the album". And save for an issue of ambiguity, let's not worry about specifying the title.
isento (
talk)
11:59, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
The term "the album" was used most recently though, meaning it is appropriate to mention the title at this point and that being used the most happens often when you have other albums mentioned in the article as well. --
K. Peake12:16, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"he explains." → "he explained."
Prefixmag.com → Prefixmag
"with many debating the label's" → "with many debating the record label's"
Shouldn't a different img be used since the concert hall is not mentioned anywhere in this section?
The location of the concert is an ancillary detail. The pertinence of the image is illustrating a show from that period (
MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE), and it also happens to show the singer in a "hyper-expressive" state as chronicled in the text.
isento (
talk)
12:24, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"would be another artist" → "would become another artist"
Sorry I was not aware of that guideline, plus you had not used "the U.S." earlier in the article until after I had made comments. --
K. Peake08:42, 2 January 2021 (UTC)reply
I'm not sure this is needed. Bilal is already mentioned in the paragraph, and Godfrey is a woman with no association with songs. And the context of the sentence is quite clear.
isento (
talk)
12:24, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"for the Post." → "for The Washington Post."
The newspaper is commonly referred to as
the Post. But more importantly, Washington D.C. is already stated as the location for Godfrey's reporting in the previous sentence, and the paper is referenced in full with Godfrey earlier in the article. So I believe this reads nicer.
isento (
talk)
12:24, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"The album's widely positive reception" → "The widely positive reception toward Love for Sale"
Another preposition ("toward") to join "among", along with the title, would make for a lengthy complicated clause to start a sentence off, not to mention a paragraph. But I've revised it to mention the title at least.
isento (
talk)
13:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"from Love for Sale's saga," → "from the album's saga,"
"He compares the development" → "He compared the development"
"during these years" you should specify what period this is referring to
"what Lindsey describes as" → "what Lindsey described as"
"Larrier explains that its" → "Larrier explained that its"
"his peers in soul" → "his peers in soul music" to be clearer
"Soul" is referenced all throughout the article as a genre, and not so far away at an earlier point as "soul music" in the preceding section. It is also referred to as "the genre" in this very sentence.
isento (
talk)
13:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"it showcased an experimentation" → "the album showcased an experimentation"
Too many "the album"'s, especially when there is no ambiguity here. Even if the reader were to connect the "it" as the earlier clause ("its genre-defying direction"), it would still makes sense and mean the same thing, practically, accurately.
isento (
talk)
13:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"Bilal's third album," → "Bilal's third studio album"
"to his avenging the circumstances" → "to him avenging the circumstances"
"and darker storytelling," → "as well as darker storytelling,"
"Bilal believes" → "Bilal believed"
"comparing it to" → "comparing the situation to"
Calling it "the situation" would not make anything more specific, whether it is the underground triumph or the label standstill being referred to, or all of it. "It" suffices just as much without the extra words.
isento (
talk)
13:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"through his 2011
Little One Tour supporting" → "through his the
Little One Tour in 2011 for support of" or something similar because "the" is missing currently
I don't believe that is implied. I just think the atmosphere of the song evokes that sensibility for him, the steamy erotic animalistic associations with the jungle. To my ear, the song itself has nothing to do with the music genre.
isento (
talk)
13:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"Hart considers it the" → "Hart called Love for Sale the"
"it would have been" → "the album would have been"
Maybe you should mention that A Love Surreal is Airtight's Revenge's successor?
I think it is implied (also mentioned in the infobox), but either way, not contextually relevant, pertinent to what is being discussed.
isento (
talk)
13:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"McKie considers his production" → "McKie named his production"
Naming implies specifying something by name; "production and drumming" are more general things, contributed roles rather than titles of something.
isento (
talk)
13:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"and "innovative" as it" → "and "innovative", as it"
"while recording the album," → "while recording Love for Sale,"
I think the reader can benefit from a pause (one of the purposes of a comma), after such a lengthy description ("hip hop duo Outkast's split double album")
isento (
talk)
13:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
The score is heightened by the mention of the Kinder high school name in the footnote, which is unavoidable and shows up in the copyvio comparison. The album title's appearance in the source is also a small factor. After a test edit in which I removed the high school's name from the article, the score went down to 39.8%
isento (
talk)
13:39, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
St. Louis sources will not load in my country of the UK due to the country belonging to the European Economic Area; do you think you could add archives to make the sources accessible universally because people in my country and other ones will experience this issue otherwise?
On hold after this lengthy review until you have fixed everything, and feel more than welcome to make comments like you have done so above! --
K. Peake12:16, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Before you do that, I would like @
JG66: (who's guided me before) to chime in on the issue of present tense in the article. From experience, I gather that when discussing fictional works in a contextual presentation, present tense is appropriate (
WP:FICTENSE,
MOS:PLOT). But I also used it in this section, to indicate a voice recounting on the history in retrospect, whether in this "legacy" section or in preceding sections. I've used this at featured articles like
Aftermath (Rolling Stones album), and I see it at
Sgt. Pepper. I can't cite a guideline to support or refute this writing style, however, so I am asking for some discussion before we continue resolving whatever issues there may be here.
isento (
talk)
11:13, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Isento I had no awareness of these guidelines and thought this article should be treated the same as other albums, but with it taken into account the album was never actually released, my comments lack proper merit in retrospective about tense and you don't need to implement those changes. Any changes where I have not replied above or will not in the future indicate that I agree with your responses and do not need them to be implemented. --
K. Peake12:16, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Just got the ping after being away for a few days, although it looks as if the issue's sorted out now. Congrats to
Isento on another GA.
Kyle Peake, just to confirm the argument for present tense: it's for all situations where the date of any commentary and interpretations is not relevant – ie, we'd only need the past tense if we're saying an author was writing in a particular year, because otherwise the commentary or opinion lives on, in the same way that qualities of an artistic work live on. Obviously, contemporaneous critical reception would all be in past tense, since we are treating those comments as part of a past event, tying in with an album's release.
Also, in articles about albums from the 1960s and '70s, certainly, it's so much easier to separate contemporaneous actions, such as what the artists did when making the records, from what biographers and journalists have said about those actions if the latter-day comments are presented in present tense. (In the most extreme examples, this can avoid the implication that a journalist or historian was in the studio at the time.) All in all, it's to avoid situations where a mass of information is laid out without any temporal context, when in reality, events are often separated from the commentary by around fifty years.
I don't know if that makes it any easier to grasp ... The issue becomes especially pertinent with albums or songs that have received substantial coverage for decades. Sgt. Pepper would be a perfect example, I imagine.
JG66 (
talk)
14:12, 2 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Maybe you should do that with flatlist instead? Also, try to not to add too many bullet points because it can make the separate lines jumbled. --
K. Peake13:09, 31 December 2020 (UTC)reply
"At Electric Lady, he held" → "At Electric Lady Studios, he held"
The studio is mentioned in full in the earlier paragraph, and it is commonly referred to as "Electric Lady". Also, on mobile devices, the infobox follows the first paragraph and mentions the studio as "Electric Lady". It is also better to not make that sentence any longer than it already is, IMO.
isento (
talk)
11:43, 31 December 2020 (UTC)reply
"with a live band featuring the trumpeter" → "with a live band that featured trumpeter" to stop over usage of "the"
"The" is a common article, and as mentioned above I made an effort to avoid false titles. I would be more concerned with using too many verbal constructions in a single sentence, like "held" then "featured" then "enlisted"...
isento (
talk)
11:43, 31 December 2020 (UTC)reply
"the drummer Steve McKie, and the pianist" → "drummer Steve McKie, and pianist"
"one of several former classmates" I know this part is in reference to Glasper and that Thomas was a classmate too, but was McKie one as well? If yes, then try to reword this, if otherwise then keep as it is.
"continued to lobby the album" → "continued to lobby it"
"It" may be too vague for readers, by chance they don't connect or understand "lobby", which can mean "lobby" the album, or "lobby" the label.
isento (
talk)
11:43, 31 December 2020 (UTC)reply
A common issue I noticed with the lead is that there are too many uses of "the album" and "it" in the paras; try to only write "the album" once for each para and do not use "it" consecutively, even though it can be used more than once in a para. --
K. Peake13:09, 31 December 2020 (UTC)reply
"by shelving Love for Sale's commercial release" → "by shelving its commercial release"
It is good to mention the album's name once in the paragraph, and in this place, it feels most appropriate. Also, "it" can be too vague to discern whether it is the leaked mix that is being referred to or the planned album in the abstract.
isento (
talk)
11:43, 31 December 2020 (UTC)reply
"to tour performing its songs" → "to perform the songs on tour"
This makes the connection less direct. The touring, rather than merely performing the songs on an otherwise unrelated tour, was a direct result of the leak's popularity, as he says: "We were able to tour off that album..."
isento (
talk)
11:43, 31 December 2020 (UTC)reply
"He tells Vibe magazine" → "Bilal told Vibe magazine" since any sources that are not citing books/newspapers themselves should use past tense for this context
"The label acquiesced to" → "The record label acquiesced in"
"The" indicates something the speaker has already mentioned, or something uniquely specific (
Article (grammar)#Definite article). This is not the case here, as "jam sessions" is firstly introduced here and said in a general sense -- no indication that all sessions previously discussed were jam sessions.
isento (
talk)
10:10, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"McKie recalls walking into the studio" → "McKie recalled walking into Electric Lady Studios" since the source mentions it being that studio
"with recording techniques at the studio," → "with recording techniques in the studio,"
"from jazz and the blues, influenced by" → "from jazz and blues, being influenced by"
The source's phrasing suggests the arrangements, rather than Bilal, were inspired by those artists. The introduction of "being" would connote otherwise.
isento (
talk)
10:10, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"and the bassist-composer" → "and bassist-composer"
"who assisted the production" → "who assisted the production of Love for Sale" to be specific
"the singer explains." → "the singer explained."
Remove target on hip hop
"Common and the vocal group" → "Common and vocal group"
"McKie recalls of the sampler." → "McKie recalled of the sampler."
"entire process making Love for Sale, Bilal says he" → "entire process of making Love for Sale, Bilal said he"
"the album-opening "Something to Hold on To"" → "Love for Sale's opening track "Something to Hold on To""
I think the current wording avoids the tongue-twisting double L-word possibility. And I don't see a grammatical issue with either.
isento (
talk)
11:09, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
The main issue here is that it has been too long since you have mentioned the album's title; any form of wording that includes the title would be acceptable. --
K. Peake12:16, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"Bilal presented the album" → "Bilal presented Love for Sale"
"he tells" → "he told"
"offered a similar reaction." → "offered a similar reaction;"
This is not essential, and would require lower-casing the next word, which would appear strange when the next quote is upper case.
isento (
talk)
11:59, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"from his first album, the premier" → "from 1st Born Second, the premiere"
"was expected in September of that year," → "was expected in September 2005," because otherwise it leads to confusion about what year the expectation was in
This is not his real name though and since he is only mentioned thrice in the article plus not consecutively, you should use the full stage name on each occasion. --
K. Peake12:16, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"could end in the album" → "could lead to Love for Sale"
"Love for Sale" appears over 50 times in this article, compared to 32 for "the album". And save for an issue of ambiguity, let's not worry about specifying the title.
isento (
talk)
11:59, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
The term "the album" was used most recently though, meaning it is appropriate to mention the title at this point and that being used the most happens often when you have other albums mentioned in the article as well. --
K. Peake12:16, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"he explains." → "he explained."
Prefixmag.com → Prefixmag
"with many debating the label's" → "with many debating the record label's"
Shouldn't a different img be used since the concert hall is not mentioned anywhere in this section?
The location of the concert is an ancillary detail. The pertinence of the image is illustrating a show from that period (
MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE), and it also happens to show the singer in a "hyper-expressive" state as chronicled in the text.
isento (
talk)
12:24, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"would be another artist" → "would become another artist"
Sorry I was not aware of that guideline, plus you had not used "the U.S." earlier in the article until after I had made comments. --
K. Peake08:42, 2 January 2021 (UTC)reply
I'm not sure this is needed. Bilal is already mentioned in the paragraph, and Godfrey is a woman with no association with songs. And the context of the sentence is quite clear.
isento (
talk)
12:24, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"for the Post." → "for The Washington Post."
The newspaper is commonly referred to as
the Post. But more importantly, Washington D.C. is already stated as the location for Godfrey's reporting in the previous sentence, and the paper is referenced in full with Godfrey earlier in the article. So I believe this reads nicer.
isento (
talk)
12:24, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"The album's widely positive reception" → "The widely positive reception toward Love for Sale"
Another preposition ("toward") to join "among", along with the title, would make for a lengthy complicated clause to start a sentence off, not to mention a paragraph. But I've revised it to mention the title at least.
isento (
talk)
13:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"from Love for Sale's saga," → "from the album's saga,"
"He compares the development" → "He compared the development"
"during these years" you should specify what period this is referring to
"what Lindsey describes as" → "what Lindsey described as"
"Larrier explains that its" → "Larrier explained that its"
"his peers in soul" → "his peers in soul music" to be clearer
"Soul" is referenced all throughout the article as a genre, and not so far away at an earlier point as "soul music" in the preceding section. It is also referred to as "the genre" in this very sentence.
isento (
talk)
13:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"it showcased an experimentation" → "the album showcased an experimentation"
Too many "the album"'s, especially when there is no ambiguity here. Even if the reader were to connect the "it" as the earlier clause ("its genre-defying direction"), it would still makes sense and mean the same thing, practically, accurately.
isento (
talk)
13:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"Bilal's third album," → "Bilal's third studio album"
"to his avenging the circumstances" → "to him avenging the circumstances"
"and darker storytelling," → "as well as darker storytelling,"
"Bilal believes" → "Bilal believed"
"comparing it to" → "comparing the situation to"
Calling it "the situation" would not make anything more specific, whether it is the underground triumph or the label standstill being referred to, or all of it. "It" suffices just as much without the extra words.
isento (
talk)
13:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"through his 2011
Little One Tour supporting" → "through his the
Little One Tour in 2011 for support of" or something similar because "the" is missing currently
I don't believe that is implied. I just think the atmosphere of the song evokes that sensibility for him, the steamy erotic animalistic associations with the jungle. To my ear, the song itself has nothing to do with the music genre.
isento (
talk)
13:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"Hart considers it the" → "Hart called Love for Sale the"
"it would have been" → "the album would have been"
Maybe you should mention that A Love Surreal is Airtight's Revenge's successor?
I think it is implied (also mentioned in the infobox), but either way, not contextually relevant, pertinent to what is being discussed.
isento (
talk)
13:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"McKie considers his production" → "McKie named his production"
Naming implies specifying something by name; "production and drumming" are more general things, contributed roles rather than titles of something.
isento (
talk)
13:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
"and "innovative" as it" → "and "innovative", as it"
"while recording the album," → "while recording Love for Sale,"
I think the reader can benefit from a pause (one of the purposes of a comma), after such a lengthy description ("hip hop duo Outkast's split double album")
isento (
talk)
13:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
The score is heightened by the mention of the Kinder high school name in the footnote, which is unavoidable and shows up in the copyvio comparison. The album title's appearance in the source is also a small factor. After a test edit in which I removed the high school's name from the article, the score went down to 39.8%
isento (
talk)
13:39, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
St. Louis sources will not load in my country of the UK due to the country belonging to the European Economic Area; do you think you could add archives to make the sources accessible universally because people in my country and other ones will experience this issue otherwise?
On hold after this lengthy review until you have fixed everything, and feel more than welcome to make comments like you have done so above! --
K. Peake12:16, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Before you do that, I would like @
JG66: (who's guided me before) to chime in on the issue of present tense in the article. From experience, I gather that when discussing fictional works in a contextual presentation, present tense is appropriate (
WP:FICTENSE,
MOS:PLOT). But I also used it in this section, to indicate a voice recounting on the history in retrospect, whether in this "legacy" section or in preceding sections. I've used this at featured articles like
Aftermath (Rolling Stones album), and I see it at
Sgt. Pepper. I can't cite a guideline to support or refute this writing style, however, so I am asking for some discussion before we continue resolving whatever issues there may be here.
isento (
talk)
11:13, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Isento I had no awareness of these guidelines and thought this article should be treated the same as other albums, but with it taken into account the album was never actually released, my comments lack proper merit in retrospective about tense and you don't need to implement those changes. Any changes where I have not replied above or will not in the future indicate that I agree with your responses and do not need them to be implemented. --
K. Peake12:16, 1 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Just got the ping after being away for a few days, although it looks as if the issue's sorted out now. Congrats to
Isento on another GA.
Kyle Peake, just to confirm the argument for present tense: it's for all situations where the date of any commentary and interpretations is not relevant – ie, we'd only need the past tense if we're saying an author was writing in a particular year, because otherwise the commentary or opinion lives on, in the same way that qualities of an artistic work live on. Obviously, contemporaneous critical reception would all be in past tense, since we are treating those comments as part of a past event, tying in with an album's release.
Also, in articles about albums from the 1960s and '70s, certainly, it's so much easier to separate contemporaneous actions, such as what the artists did when making the records, from what biographers and journalists have said about those actions if the latter-day comments are presented in present tense. (In the most extreme examples, this can avoid the implication that a journalist or historian was in the studio at the time.) All in all, it's to avoid situations where a mass of information is laid out without any temporal context, when in reality, events are often separated from the commentary by around fifty years.
I don't know if that makes it any easier to grasp ... The issue becomes especially pertinent with albums or songs that have received substantial coverage for decades. Sgt. Pepper would be a perfect example, I imagine.
JG66 (
talk)
14:12, 2 January 2021 (UTC)reply