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Hey I've made this a cleanup article... I intend to fix it myself. I believe it needs to be wikified and perhaps expanded... a lot! Tomorrow morning I will be writing an essay about Loung, so when I get it back (and it's marked) I'll type it up here along with the content that is already here. Thanks ZPMMaker 08:46, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi again. Sorry about the delay... I have finally got my essay back from my teacher so I will upload it soon. ZPMMaker 09:57, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Hey again. Sorry re the delay - have had absolutely no access to the Internet for the last two months due to ISP errors. Will get onto the article soon. (And yes, I do realise that no one actually cares...)... ZPMMaker 21:34, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I care. :-) I look forward to reading what you come up with! Syosset 15:59, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
The title of Loung Ung's next book to be Fried Crickets and Margaritas? http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Fried+Crickets+and+Margaritas+Loung+Ung&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t&x=wrt
In Ung's blog ( http://www.loungung.com/ung_blog.php) she writes:
That's why I co-founded "Cathalyst for Change". The goal of C2 is to raise money to give to programs founded and staffed by Khmers in Cambodia. I believe strongly that it's not enough to support projects and build infrastructures. We must invest in the people.
Does anyone have any more information about this?
(Speaking of her blog, she hasn't updated it in almost six months. Sadness.)
I reverted some edits because they were, in my opinion, very POV and read more like a Political Commentary or a Book Review than an encyclopedic article on the author. If you disagree, please don't revert back ("edit wars" are very unproductive and a waste of time). Let's discuss it here until a consensus is reached.-- WilliamThweatt 06:15, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
RogerK, Your edits are an improvement over your original version. Including the quote got her point across without you, the editor, making the comentary your description. It maintains the encyclopedic tone of the article. However, the image caption you keep putting in is inappropriate. The merits of land mines as "indescriminate weapons that keep killing long after the conflict is over" can be discussed in the article/talk page on landmines and belongs there, not in an image caption. I have seen first hand the misery that landmines have caused in Cambodia, but this is not the appropriate forum in which to forward that cause. This is POV and commentary on your part, not appropriate for an encyclopedic article in this context.-- WilliamThweatt 03:14, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
My friend, I do not edit haphazardly, and I would not forward any cause in Wikipedia; the truth about landmines is well documented internationally. I intend to contribute to this article over the long haul, and all of my contributions will be of the finest quality that I am capable of. I have addressed only the first few paragraphs thus far. Luong and her works are worthy of a fine article (POV, lol). "Chourng" is spelled properly in the second book, but not the first. I know; I've done a lot of research. In the future, if you are agreeable, I'd appreciate some discussion about your proposed changes to my edits on my user page, or at liddlebigboy@yahoo.com. If not, we may continue to be antagonists; I don't mind. Arguments are, after all, the catalysts for solutions. -- RogerK 07:42, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
After the Khmere Rouge forces were routed into hiding by the Vietnamese in 1979, they clandestinely attacked Cambodian villages, and continued to kill innocent peasants indiscriminately. After raiding a village, they planted landmines, not to protect their fortifications, but so that they could continue to kill anyone and everyone indiscriminately after the attack. The landmine, in the context of this article about Loung and her experiences as a child in Cambodia, was an "indiscriminate" weapon as it was used by the Khmers, and continues to be such today.
The so-called "unverifiable statements" about what may or may not be "in her heart and whatnot" appear repeatedly in her own words throughout her writings. How do you conclude that they are "unverifiable"? Have you read her books? -- RogerK 06:16, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
User:Syosset brings up a good point above. Something that we might want to consider as this article progresses. There is a lot more to Loung Ung than landmines. As anybody who's read her books, saw her speak or met her in person will attest to, she is a multi-faceted, complex, vibrant, creative person. Not only is she an author, but she's a wife, highly involved in community and cultural associations here in the States, very positve, successful and joyful. So far this article (and the picture/caption) is painting a rather bleak picture of a solemn, sorrowful woman who seems to be living in the past...which just isn't so. If this is going to be a true biographical article, it needs to include all aspects of her life equally, and not be so issue-oriented. We should think about changing the picture. There are better pictures that capture the essence of Loung Ung better than this one (the black-and-white on the homepage of her website, for example). Just some food for thought...-- WilliamThweatt 00:36, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm all for changing the picture, and changing the emphasis of the article. I think those are very good comments, William Thweatt. When you say that it should included all aspects of her life equally -- how will we get information about the other aspects of her life (other than those relating to her two books)? I would love to get this information, of course. But how? Syosset 04:11, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
There's an issue with the picture itself. I'm too busy at the moment to deal with this, but if someone else wants to, please do so.
I know this probably won't be a popular addition, and I fully expect certain editors to object, but in browsing the internet and reading various reviews, I find many sources with negative opinions of Ms. Ung's work that go beyond what one would normally expect. There are also many websites and forums pertaining to Cambodia, Cambodians in exile, and Cambodian culture in which people are actually outraged with Ung. While I may not necessarily agree with all the criticisms (except maybe the accusations of Chinese ethnocentrism), I feel the criticisms are valid and mention of them is warranted. I wrote this up rather quickly because I just wanted to get some info up. Please feel free to edit for grammar, spelling, pair down the quotes, add a response from Loung (I couldn't find any), whatever will make it look a little better, but I think the section should stay.-- WilliamThweatt 03:39, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the input, gentlemen. Easter Monkey, I labored over the the use of "criticism" vs. "controversy" as I was originally writing this section. Some of the objections and accusations were rather vehement and "criticism" seemed too weak to convey that. However, I do agree with you that it wasn't exactly a "controversy" either. I have changed it to "criticism" until I can think of (or maybe invent) a more appropriate word. (For the record, I also agree with you that this may, indeed, seem petty, but I too believe in being as precise as possible in writing, both in conotation and denotation. Every word should serve a purpose or it should be removed or changed.) Syosset, you bring up a good point. As I understand it, it was her first book that engendered the criticisms but those criticisms were then extended not just to her (first) book, but also to her general attitude towards and perceptions of the Khmer people. I changed the sentence a little in the hopes of better conveying that. It could still use some improvement. Feel free, one and all, to edit as you deem appropriate.-- WilliamThweatt 23:21, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm happy to see that the editing war has stopped. Let's try not to get into one of those again. Because once they start, they tend to quickly snowball and get out of control, so, best to not start them, I think. This seems obvious, but I think it's pretty easy to forget. Peace, Syosset 22:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Hey guys... it's ZPMMaker here (I've changed my nickname...). I haven't done a damn thing for this article, but when I added the wikify tag back in October 2005 this article was only 2 sentences in length. Great work! It may be good enough for a featured article... speaking of which, how do we get that to happen?? David P. a. Hunter 01:12, 29 March 2006 (UTC).
This section brings to light the criticisms that some people have expressed about her book(s) and the way she worded what she wrote, and what her attitude may or may not have been when she wrote. But this article is about her life experiences; it is not a book review, and we are not here addressing either raves or criticisms in depth. Although the issue is relevant, does it deserve to be discussed at length in this article in this manner? I for one feel that the reader would benefit from a short summary of the criticism, such as has already been written, so that he/she is made aware that criticisms exist, and that quotations of such criticisms should not be included here except as footnotes that can be pursued by the reader if desired; better that the controversy be included, in depth, in a review/discussion of her book(s). What do you guys think? :) -- RogerK 03:43, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
I went to same school with Loung, she was not very fond of Cambodia and was thinking to cope with he problems of USA. She always reiterated her US citizenship and took speech theraphy to show that she does not have an accent. She always wanted to be a famous person and always looked down on anything Asian, I hope she changed, This is not a book of Cambodia rather a self serving and promoting hidden discrimination of the people of Cambodia who stayed behind.I do not beleive she has any traces of Cambodian culture in her, I think that Cambodia`s problem can be adressed by the people who lived through the horrors rather than the ones that escaped and continue to live in Western countries. Mark Turner, St. Michael`s College `89
"[Loung reveals] an inherent racism against ethnic Khmers. Sody Lay, former director of the Khmer Institute and university lecturer in Cambodian American studies, also notes that her claim that the Killing Fields tragedy was an attempt at ethnic cleansing is completely misrepresentive of what happened as well as insulting to the millions of ethnic Khmers who suffered and perished under the Khmer Rouge." This criticism was added to the sentence "Her detractors also claim that, as a child of a Chinese mother and a Khmer father highly placed in the Phnom Penh government, she paints a very unfavorable picture of Khmer villagers" on 2 May 2006 by 71.129.53.112, after he or she deleted the bulk of the article. Reverted. Placed here instead, where it is more appropriate. Your contribution is welcome here in Wikipedia. -- RogerK 02:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to include Krang Truop (uncle's village), Tro Nuon (father's birthplace), Kong Cha Lat (where Keav died), Anglungthmor, and Long Deang (Vietnam, from where they departed for Thailand) on the map. But I've checked maps [22] and have been unable to find these villages. Anybody know where they are? -- RogerK 20:37, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I was unaware, when I tidied the article, that there had been so much debate; fortunately, my edits were largely unconnected with anything discussed above. Two points, with regard to reversions of what I did.
It's always wise to check the Talk page of an article if you're looking for explanations of edits — that's where editors will place them (as I did). (That I'd posted here should have showed up on your Watchlist.) With regard to image size; remember that different browsers are set up differently; by forcing a pixel size, you're forcing a sertain image size independently of a reader's font size preferences etc., which can make the page look image-heavy and even hard to read. Also, larger images take longer to load, which is why thumbnailing is used — to allow people to choose for themselves whether or not to see a larger image; that can be significant for someone on a slow dial-up connection.
Still, I'm sorry for my testy comment above. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 09:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation of image-size policy. With regard to the fair-use issue, there has been a crack-down on non-fair-use lately, and you'll find that album covers have been removed from many articles on musicians (though it's a big job, with many articles involved). I'll not edit war over this, though. --
Mel Etitis (
Μελ Ετητης)
10:03, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Featured Article: Craters of the Moon National Monument and Preserve
Featured Article: Glacier National Park (US)
Featured Article: People's Republic of China
Of course, their articles, and several hundred others, are of greater import than those that I contribute to; nevertheless, perhaps they should be advised of their mistakes. -- RogerK 10:42, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
The ethnic background of Loung Ung is not of sufficient import to be discussed in the intro to the article. It has been placed as a reference. RogerK 06:01, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
This criticism of Loung Ung was placed in the article by "Khmerletter" on 12 Sept 2006. Its truthfulness is not in question here; the statement does not comply with Wikipedia's NPOV policy and is not accompanied by any corroborating links. The image is also not acceptable without a copyright tag. The crtiticism has been deleted from the article and placed here. Your contributions are welcome here in Wikipedia. - RogerK 03:53, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Loung Ung article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Loung Ung received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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|
Hey I've made this a cleanup article... I intend to fix it myself. I believe it needs to be wikified and perhaps expanded... a lot! Tomorrow morning I will be writing an essay about Loung, so when I get it back (and it's marked) I'll type it up here along with the content that is already here. Thanks ZPMMaker 08:46, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi again. Sorry about the delay... I have finally got my essay back from my teacher so I will upload it soon. ZPMMaker 09:57, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Hey again. Sorry re the delay - have had absolutely no access to the Internet for the last two months due to ISP errors. Will get onto the article soon. (And yes, I do realise that no one actually cares...)... ZPMMaker 21:34, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I care. :-) I look forward to reading what you come up with! Syosset 15:59, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
The title of Loung Ung's next book to be Fried Crickets and Margaritas? http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Fried+Crickets+and+Margaritas+Loung+Ung&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t&x=wrt
In Ung's blog ( http://www.loungung.com/ung_blog.php) she writes:
That's why I co-founded "Cathalyst for Change". The goal of C2 is to raise money to give to programs founded and staffed by Khmers in Cambodia. I believe strongly that it's not enough to support projects and build infrastructures. We must invest in the people.
Does anyone have any more information about this?
(Speaking of her blog, she hasn't updated it in almost six months. Sadness.)
I reverted some edits because they were, in my opinion, very POV and read more like a Political Commentary or a Book Review than an encyclopedic article on the author. If you disagree, please don't revert back ("edit wars" are very unproductive and a waste of time). Let's discuss it here until a consensus is reached.-- WilliamThweatt 06:15, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
RogerK, Your edits are an improvement over your original version. Including the quote got her point across without you, the editor, making the comentary your description. It maintains the encyclopedic tone of the article. However, the image caption you keep putting in is inappropriate. The merits of land mines as "indescriminate weapons that keep killing long after the conflict is over" can be discussed in the article/talk page on landmines and belongs there, not in an image caption. I have seen first hand the misery that landmines have caused in Cambodia, but this is not the appropriate forum in which to forward that cause. This is POV and commentary on your part, not appropriate for an encyclopedic article in this context.-- WilliamThweatt 03:14, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
My friend, I do not edit haphazardly, and I would not forward any cause in Wikipedia; the truth about landmines is well documented internationally. I intend to contribute to this article over the long haul, and all of my contributions will be of the finest quality that I am capable of. I have addressed only the first few paragraphs thus far. Luong and her works are worthy of a fine article (POV, lol). "Chourng" is spelled properly in the second book, but not the first. I know; I've done a lot of research. In the future, if you are agreeable, I'd appreciate some discussion about your proposed changes to my edits on my user page, or at liddlebigboy@yahoo.com. If not, we may continue to be antagonists; I don't mind. Arguments are, after all, the catalysts for solutions. -- RogerK 07:42, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
After the Khmere Rouge forces were routed into hiding by the Vietnamese in 1979, they clandestinely attacked Cambodian villages, and continued to kill innocent peasants indiscriminately. After raiding a village, they planted landmines, not to protect their fortifications, but so that they could continue to kill anyone and everyone indiscriminately after the attack. The landmine, in the context of this article about Loung and her experiences as a child in Cambodia, was an "indiscriminate" weapon as it was used by the Khmers, and continues to be such today.
The so-called "unverifiable statements" about what may or may not be "in her heart and whatnot" appear repeatedly in her own words throughout her writings. How do you conclude that they are "unverifiable"? Have you read her books? -- RogerK 06:16, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
User:Syosset brings up a good point above. Something that we might want to consider as this article progresses. There is a lot more to Loung Ung than landmines. As anybody who's read her books, saw her speak or met her in person will attest to, she is a multi-faceted, complex, vibrant, creative person. Not only is she an author, but she's a wife, highly involved in community and cultural associations here in the States, very positve, successful and joyful. So far this article (and the picture/caption) is painting a rather bleak picture of a solemn, sorrowful woman who seems to be living in the past...which just isn't so. If this is going to be a true biographical article, it needs to include all aspects of her life equally, and not be so issue-oriented. We should think about changing the picture. There are better pictures that capture the essence of Loung Ung better than this one (the black-and-white on the homepage of her website, for example). Just some food for thought...-- WilliamThweatt 00:36, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm all for changing the picture, and changing the emphasis of the article. I think those are very good comments, William Thweatt. When you say that it should included all aspects of her life equally -- how will we get information about the other aspects of her life (other than those relating to her two books)? I would love to get this information, of course. But how? Syosset 04:11, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
There's an issue with the picture itself. I'm too busy at the moment to deal with this, but if someone else wants to, please do so.
I know this probably won't be a popular addition, and I fully expect certain editors to object, but in browsing the internet and reading various reviews, I find many sources with negative opinions of Ms. Ung's work that go beyond what one would normally expect. There are also many websites and forums pertaining to Cambodia, Cambodians in exile, and Cambodian culture in which people are actually outraged with Ung. While I may not necessarily agree with all the criticisms (except maybe the accusations of Chinese ethnocentrism), I feel the criticisms are valid and mention of them is warranted. I wrote this up rather quickly because I just wanted to get some info up. Please feel free to edit for grammar, spelling, pair down the quotes, add a response from Loung (I couldn't find any), whatever will make it look a little better, but I think the section should stay.-- WilliamThweatt 03:39, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the input, gentlemen. Easter Monkey, I labored over the the use of "criticism" vs. "controversy" as I was originally writing this section. Some of the objections and accusations were rather vehement and "criticism" seemed too weak to convey that. However, I do agree with you that it wasn't exactly a "controversy" either. I have changed it to "criticism" until I can think of (or maybe invent) a more appropriate word. (For the record, I also agree with you that this may, indeed, seem petty, but I too believe in being as precise as possible in writing, both in conotation and denotation. Every word should serve a purpose or it should be removed or changed.) Syosset, you bring up a good point. As I understand it, it was her first book that engendered the criticisms but those criticisms were then extended not just to her (first) book, but also to her general attitude towards and perceptions of the Khmer people. I changed the sentence a little in the hopes of better conveying that. It could still use some improvement. Feel free, one and all, to edit as you deem appropriate.-- WilliamThweatt 23:21, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm happy to see that the editing war has stopped. Let's try not to get into one of those again. Because once they start, they tend to quickly snowball and get out of control, so, best to not start them, I think. This seems obvious, but I think it's pretty easy to forget. Peace, Syosset 22:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Hey guys... it's ZPMMaker here (I've changed my nickname...). I haven't done a damn thing for this article, but when I added the wikify tag back in October 2005 this article was only 2 sentences in length. Great work! It may be good enough for a featured article... speaking of which, how do we get that to happen?? David P. a. Hunter 01:12, 29 March 2006 (UTC).
This section brings to light the criticisms that some people have expressed about her book(s) and the way she worded what she wrote, and what her attitude may or may not have been when she wrote. But this article is about her life experiences; it is not a book review, and we are not here addressing either raves or criticisms in depth. Although the issue is relevant, does it deserve to be discussed at length in this article in this manner? I for one feel that the reader would benefit from a short summary of the criticism, such as has already been written, so that he/she is made aware that criticisms exist, and that quotations of such criticisms should not be included here except as footnotes that can be pursued by the reader if desired; better that the controversy be included, in depth, in a review/discussion of her book(s). What do you guys think? :) -- RogerK 03:43, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
I went to same school with Loung, she was not very fond of Cambodia and was thinking to cope with he problems of USA. She always reiterated her US citizenship and took speech theraphy to show that she does not have an accent. She always wanted to be a famous person and always looked down on anything Asian, I hope she changed, This is not a book of Cambodia rather a self serving and promoting hidden discrimination of the people of Cambodia who stayed behind.I do not beleive she has any traces of Cambodian culture in her, I think that Cambodia`s problem can be adressed by the people who lived through the horrors rather than the ones that escaped and continue to live in Western countries. Mark Turner, St. Michael`s College `89
"[Loung reveals] an inherent racism against ethnic Khmers. Sody Lay, former director of the Khmer Institute and university lecturer in Cambodian American studies, also notes that her claim that the Killing Fields tragedy was an attempt at ethnic cleansing is completely misrepresentive of what happened as well as insulting to the millions of ethnic Khmers who suffered and perished under the Khmer Rouge." This criticism was added to the sentence "Her detractors also claim that, as a child of a Chinese mother and a Khmer father highly placed in the Phnom Penh government, she paints a very unfavorable picture of Khmer villagers" on 2 May 2006 by 71.129.53.112, after he or she deleted the bulk of the article. Reverted. Placed here instead, where it is more appropriate. Your contribution is welcome here in Wikipedia. -- RogerK 02:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to include Krang Truop (uncle's village), Tro Nuon (father's birthplace), Kong Cha Lat (where Keav died), Anglungthmor, and Long Deang (Vietnam, from where they departed for Thailand) on the map. But I've checked maps [22] and have been unable to find these villages. Anybody know where they are? -- RogerK 20:37, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I was unaware, when I tidied the article, that there had been so much debate; fortunately, my edits were largely unconnected with anything discussed above. Two points, with regard to reversions of what I did.
It's always wise to check the Talk page of an article if you're looking for explanations of edits — that's where editors will place them (as I did). (That I'd posted here should have showed up on your Watchlist.) With regard to image size; remember that different browsers are set up differently; by forcing a pixel size, you're forcing a sertain image size independently of a reader's font size preferences etc., which can make the page look image-heavy and even hard to read. Also, larger images take longer to load, which is why thumbnailing is used — to allow people to choose for themselves whether or not to see a larger image; that can be significant for someone on a slow dial-up connection.
Still, I'm sorry for my testy comment above. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 09:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation of image-size policy. With regard to the fair-use issue, there has been a crack-down on non-fair-use lately, and you'll find that album covers have been removed from many articles on musicians (though it's a big job, with many articles involved). I'll not edit war over this, though. --
Mel Etitis (
Μελ Ετητης)
10:03, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Featured Article: Craters of the Moon National Monument and Preserve
Featured Article: Glacier National Park (US)
Featured Article: People's Republic of China
Of course, their articles, and several hundred others, are of greater import than those that I contribute to; nevertheless, perhaps they should be advised of their mistakes. -- RogerK 10:42, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
The ethnic background of Loung Ung is not of sufficient import to be discussed in the intro to the article. It has been placed as a reference. RogerK 06:01, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
This criticism of Loung Ung was placed in the article by "Khmerletter" on 12 Sept 2006. Its truthfulness is not in question here; the statement does not comply with Wikipedia's NPOV policy and is not accompanied by any corroborating links. The image is also not acceptable without a copyright tag. The crtiticism has been deleted from the article and placed here. Your contributions are welcome here in Wikipedia. - RogerK 03:53, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 2 external links on
Loung Ung. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 07:16, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on Loung Ung. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:30, 7 January 2018 (UTC)