This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
No mention of the lost works of Euclid?
Milton was a remarkable man, but not so remarkable that he could write so long after his death. --- D H
Should this article exclusively catalog literary works, or should it include lost works of art (paintings, sculpture, etc.)? Or maybe should there be a separate Lost works of art article? Suggestions? MakeRocketGoNow 17:32, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Should this article try to be exaustive? Arrian's lost works are nowhere in this list. Should they be added? Ikokki 22:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Scholars believe that only a third to one-half of Plutarch’s corpus is extant. See Plutarch#Lost_works If I come up with a comprehensive list of Plutarch's lost works I'll add it over here. - BiancaOfHell 11:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Hipparchus wrote about 14 works, only one of which survives, his commentary on Aratus. NotWillDecker —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.212.225.199 ( talk) 20:13, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Why are the quipus in the 15th century? They would be destroyed on the 16th.
Does Quipu belong on the list at all? I thought they convey only numerical information, and since the context--what the numbers actually represent--has been lost, too, I don't think Quipu qualify as a "work." A lost artifact, yes, but not a literary work.
JMR-006 (
talk)
19:05, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
This website contains the following list of Archimedes' lost works, the same list is also found in the book "The Works of Archimedes" found here (a Google search will give you a readable extract):
1. On Polyhedra, mentioned by Pappus 2. On the Measure of a Circle 3. On Plynths and Cylinders 4. On Surfaces and Irregular Bodies 5. Mechanics 6. Catoptrica (κατοπτρικά), on properties of mirrors, mentioned by Theon of Alexandria 7. On Sphere-Making, mentioned by Pappus 8. On the Length of the Year
I'll quote from the book "The Works of Archimedes":
Finally, several works by Archimedes are mentioned in ancient sources but are no longer extant. These are listed by Heiberg as "fragments", collected at the end of the second volume of the second edition:
1: On Polyhedra, 2: On the Measure of a Circle, 3: On Plynths and Cylinders, 4: On Surfaces and Irregular Bodies, 5: Mechanics, 6: Catoptrics, 7: On Sphere-Making, 8: On the Length of the Year
Some of those references may be based on confusions with other, extant works, while others may be pure legend. The reference to the work On Polyhedra, however, made by Pappus in his Mathematical Collection, is very detailed and convincing.
There's a longer explanation in the book, which as I mentioned is searchable, so I'll leave it at that...
Of the above listed works, "On Sphere-Making" is the only one currently added and I'll also add the "On Polyhedra" to the list, since the above text clearly states that its mention is very detailed and convincing (same reference, Pappus, for these two works).
As for the other listed works, "On the Measure of a Circle" has its own Wikipedia article and is apparently not a lost work itself but is mentioned to be part of a larger unnamed lost work.
I'd rather not do any decision-making regarding the possible inclusion of any of these other works, since I'm not an expert in these matters, but I'd appreciate any feedback regarding this...
Abvgd ( talk) 20:34, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Sometimes it can be advantageous to combine several authors' works who have written on the same subject instead of mentioning each one separately, which would warrant an additional section named "Thematic works" or something similar besides the "Specific works" and "Multiple works" sections for single authors. It could also make sense to create a thematic cross-reference list (provided there's enough material to cross-reference) for easy overview on what type of works are missing and what types are not, which sometimes isn't easy to tell merely by looking at an alphabetic list of authors. This is just an idea I thought I'd throw out, I won't try this myself, but just for the sake of the argument I'll give an example: The early and middle Stoic philosophers' works are almost completely missing while the works of the late Stoic philosophers are almost fully salvaged and available. Some, not all, of these missing Stoic philosophers' works are already listed (Zeno and Posidonius) in the "Multiple works" list, but one does not get the full birds-eye view on the state of ancient Stoic litterature just by going through the list... From the page on Stoicism, we get however an easy to comprehend thematic birds-eye perspective, thanks to the thematic approach:
Scholars usually divide the history of Stoicism into three phases:
* Early Stoa, from the founding of the school by Zeno to Antipater. * Middle Stoa, including Panaetius and Posidonius. * Late Stoa, including Musonius Rufus, Seneca, Epictetus, and Marcus Aurelius.
Unfortunately, as A. A. Long states, no complete work by any Stoic philosopher survives from the first two phases of Stoicism. Only Roman texts from the Late Stoa survive.
But like I said, this is just an idea how the list could be improved...
Abvgd ( talk) 22:32, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
I know there were numerous early works of Christian theology that were eventually destroyed because they did not conform to later orthodoxy. Many of these works are lost in their original forms but are refered to in other theological works that denounce them. Can anyone provide more information of these for this article? MK2 17:09, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I just found Wikipedia's article on Theodore_Abu-Qurrah. The article states, "He also claimed to have written thirty treatises in Syriac, but none of these have yet been identified." Should he be listed here? 99.9.112.31 ( talk) 03:26, 22 November 2010 (UTC)NotWillRiker
It seems that currently only a few of Marcus Terentius Varro's lost works are mentioned here. On the Wikipedia page for Marcus Terentius Varro, there is a Lost Works section that provides a more complete list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Terentius_Varro#Known_lost_works
If listing them all would take up too much place, then listing a few separately (perhaps those already listed currently) and summarizing the rest in a sentence or two might be a good idea. However, I'll leave that decision to someone more knowledgeable on the nature and contents of his works. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abvgd ( talk • contribs) 08:58, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Regarding this entry on the list:
* The quipu of the Incan Empire were mostly destroyed by the Spanish Conquistadors.
The quipus are not considered to be a written script, but merely something resembling a tally stick used for storing numerical data. The general consensus is that the Incans did not have a written language. Therefore, its inclusion into this list seems questionable as recorded numerical data can hardly be considered to be written works.
Abvgd ( talk) 15:00, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
According to the Madrid Codex, the fourth tlatoani Itzcoatl (ruling from 1427 (or 1428) to 1440) ordered the burning of all historical codices because it was "not wise that all the people should know the paintings".[2] Among other purposes, this allowed the Aztec state to develop a state-sanctioned history and mythos that venerated Huitzilopochtli.
Done - Since nobody has objected to it. Abvgd ( talk) 23:58, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
I can find no support for the statement that the unpublished works of the Marquis de Sade were destroyed by his son, and what references I can find to the destruction of works state that the Les Journées de Florbelle was destroyed by the police. Should this be changed? It's not remotely an area of expertise for me (either history in general or de Sade specifically), so I didn't want to make the change without discussion. Infophiliac 23:22, 10 December 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Infophiliac ( talk • contribs)
I think it would be great if someone could expand the introduction to include an overview of how different writing materials and techniques used in the past affected the long-term preservation of writings as well as something on the state of preservation of the main written cultures of the past (i.e. how much is estimated lost and/or extant). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abvgd ( talk • contribs) 22:02, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
Abvgd ( talk) 22:04, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
Since no one else gave a shot at an article rewrite, I decided to act on my own suggestion... This is a first, tentative draft of a possible rewrite of the main text of the article. It includes most of the existing introductory paragraph, but expands into a historical overview of writing materials and major waves of losses and rediscoveries. It might be a little on the lengthy side, though I've tried to keep it short and it's hard to properly summarize these things in just a few sentences. In any case, I would appreciate feedback concerning the length and scope of the article.
Also, the text's focus is on the Mediterranean and Europe (as is the existing list of lost works itself), but I'm sure a few sentences could be added subsequently on writing materials and losses/rediscoveries of Chinese, Indian and other written cultures. I'll happily take comments and rewrite suggestions - and of course I'd happily let someone else adapt and publish this text as he sees fit. For now, I'll simply let the text be here in the talk section to hear the opinions of others. Eventually, if no one else says or does anything at all on the subject of the article rewrite, I'll update the article myself...
So, anyway, here's the draft:
Can someone add information on works which mention lost works? Aren't there action-adventure novels where a lost work has been discovered and the good guys are trying to retrieve it from the bad guys, for example? I can't think of any specifically; the novels I know of, tend to portray fictional lost works. 99.9.112.31 ( talk)NotWillDecker —Preceding undated comment added 16:57, 23 April 2010 (UTC).
The Barhaspatya sutras seem like they should go on this list, though I'm not sure where. Maybe someone could add them to the list? Gary ( talk) 20:55, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Can any sources be found for 'List of Famous Whores' and 'Greek Terms of Abuse'?
Abvgd ( talk) 20:48, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
I've read several places about the reported books by Diogenes. Most importantly in "Lives of the eminent philsophers" by Diogenes Laertius where he list several books attributed to Diogenes. He also does cite people who dispute that at least some of these books were actually written by him. Ive added him with a note trying to portray that the authorship of these books are bot lost and questioned. If anyone think that it should be removed I would ask them to comment both so I know the reason and that we have a presedent for how to write up this type of books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.50.162.174 ( talk) 11:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
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Various websites and videogames are now completely unplayable or accessible due to servers going down or links going dead. SHould these be added? Maybe their own page? Error four oh four ( talk) 12:55, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
The lead contains phrases that elicit a "duh!" response from the reader, which is inappropriate for a Wiki article. Examples: or accidentally by anyone
and Of course works that no one has subsequently referred to remain unknown
. While I appreciate how editors will want to cover all bases, the tone here is a bit too light for an encyclopedia.
CapnZapp (
talk)
11:38, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
How is the Manuscrito de Astorga lost? Googling around I found a page in old Spanish that seems to be it or a part of it. Did Franco or his heirs lose it?
Should there be a related article called lost art forms? For instance, Damascus steel/swords?
Previously the list header was "Notable lost work" - ie. that we claim the works are notable. I don't question this, but if we are to claim notability we need to source each and every such claim.
In the absence of such referencing, I changed the header to avoid claiming notability. Instead I added template text to say the list "may never be able to satisfy particular standards for completeness", which gets us off the hook (ie. we don't want to have to answer the question why one item on the list and another isn't). CapnZapp ( talk) 14:53, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
Right now, it says
Well known, but not recovered, works are described by compilations that did survive. For example, the Naturalis Historia of Pliny the Elder or the De Architectura of Vitruvius.
But, according to those articles, those works are recovered, apparently in complete or nearly so. They were (considered) lost, but were saved in compilations; since (I gather) they weren't indexed under their own titles, but rather under the the title of the compilation, their existance was not know, for a while. That is, they were in the complilations, not merely described in them, and were recovered.
Not being an expert here, I didn't change it, but shouldn't it be? Herostratus ( talk) 18:42, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
If anyone has a mind significantly to expand the Classical Western list, Diogenes Laërtius Lives of the Philosophers is chock-a-block full of Greek titles. For each (or almost each) of the philosophers, Diogenes lists their works, often in the dozens. Almost none of them has survived. The procedure would be to go thru the authors one by one and collate: [1]
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
No mention of the lost works of Euclid?
Milton was a remarkable man, but not so remarkable that he could write so long after his death. --- D H
Should this article exclusively catalog literary works, or should it include lost works of art (paintings, sculpture, etc.)? Or maybe should there be a separate Lost works of art article? Suggestions? MakeRocketGoNow 17:32, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Should this article try to be exaustive? Arrian's lost works are nowhere in this list. Should they be added? Ikokki 22:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Scholars believe that only a third to one-half of Plutarch’s corpus is extant. See Plutarch#Lost_works If I come up with a comprehensive list of Plutarch's lost works I'll add it over here. - BiancaOfHell 11:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Hipparchus wrote about 14 works, only one of which survives, his commentary on Aratus. NotWillDecker —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.212.225.199 ( talk) 20:13, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Why are the quipus in the 15th century? They would be destroyed on the 16th.
Does Quipu belong on the list at all? I thought they convey only numerical information, and since the context--what the numbers actually represent--has been lost, too, I don't think Quipu qualify as a "work." A lost artifact, yes, but not a literary work.
JMR-006 (
talk)
19:05, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
This website contains the following list of Archimedes' lost works, the same list is also found in the book "The Works of Archimedes" found here (a Google search will give you a readable extract):
1. On Polyhedra, mentioned by Pappus 2. On the Measure of a Circle 3. On Plynths and Cylinders 4. On Surfaces and Irregular Bodies 5. Mechanics 6. Catoptrica (κατοπτρικά), on properties of mirrors, mentioned by Theon of Alexandria 7. On Sphere-Making, mentioned by Pappus 8. On the Length of the Year
I'll quote from the book "The Works of Archimedes":
Finally, several works by Archimedes are mentioned in ancient sources but are no longer extant. These are listed by Heiberg as "fragments", collected at the end of the second volume of the second edition:
1: On Polyhedra, 2: On the Measure of a Circle, 3: On Plynths and Cylinders, 4: On Surfaces and Irregular Bodies, 5: Mechanics, 6: Catoptrics, 7: On Sphere-Making, 8: On the Length of the Year
Some of those references may be based on confusions with other, extant works, while others may be pure legend. The reference to the work On Polyhedra, however, made by Pappus in his Mathematical Collection, is very detailed and convincing.
There's a longer explanation in the book, which as I mentioned is searchable, so I'll leave it at that...
Of the above listed works, "On Sphere-Making" is the only one currently added and I'll also add the "On Polyhedra" to the list, since the above text clearly states that its mention is very detailed and convincing (same reference, Pappus, for these two works).
As for the other listed works, "On the Measure of a Circle" has its own Wikipedia article and is apparently not a lost work itself but is mentioned to be part of a larger unnamed lost work.
I'd rather not do any decision-making regarding the possible inclusion of any of these other works, since I'm not an expert in these matters, but I'd appreciate any feedback regarding this...
Abvgd ( talk) 20:34, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Sometimes it can be advantageous to combine several authors' works who have written on the same subject instead of mentioning each one separately, which would warrant an additional section named "Thematic works" or something similar besides the "Specific works" and "Multiple works" sections for single authors. It could also make sense to create a thematic cross-reference list (provided there's enough material to cross-reference) for easy overview on what type of works are missing and what types are not, which sometimes isn't easy to tell merely by looking at an alphabetic list of authors. This is just an idea I thought I'd throw out, I won't try this myself, but just for the sake of the argument I'll give an example: The early and middle Stoic philosophers' works are almost completely missing while the works of the late Stoic philosophers are almost fully salvaged and available. Some, not all, of these missing Stoic philosophers' works are already listed (Zeno and Posidonius) in the "Multiple works" list, but one does not get the full birds-eye view on the state of ancient Stoic litterature just by going through the list... From the page on Stoicism, we get however an easy to comprehend thematic birds-eye perspective, thanks to the thematic approach:
Scholars usually divide the history of Stoicism into three phases:
* Early Stoa, from the founding of the school by Zeno to Antipater. * Middle Stoa, including Panaetius and Posidonius. * Late Stoa, including Musonius Rufus, Seneca, Epictetus, and Marcus Aurelius.
Unfortunately, as A. A. Long states, no complete work by any Stoic philosopher survives from the first two phases of Stoicism. Only Roman texts from the Late Stoa survive.
But like I said, this is just an idea how the list could be improved...
Abvgd ( talk) 22:32, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
I know there were numerous early works of Christian theology that were eventually destroyed because they did not conform to later orthodoxy. Many of these works are lost in their original forms but are refered to in other theological works that denounce them. Can anyone provide more information of these for this article? MK2 17:09, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I just found Wikipedia's article on Theodore_Abu-Qurrah. The article states, "He also claimed to have written thirty treatises in Syriac, but none of these have yet been identified." Should he be listed here? 99.9.112.31 ( talk) 03:26, 22 November 2010 (UTC)NotWillRiker
It seems that currently only a few of Marcus Terentius Varro's lost works are mentioned here. On the Wikipedia page for Marcus Terentius Varro, there is a Lost Works section that provides a more complete list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Terentius_Varro#Known_lost_works
If listing them all would take up too much place, then listing a few separately (perhaps those already listed currently) and summarizing the rest in a sentence or two might be a good idea. However, I'll leave that decision to someone more knowledgeable on the nature and contents of his works. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abvgd ( talk • contribs) 08:58, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Regarding this entry on the list:
* The quipu of the Incan Empire were mostly destroyed by the Spanish Conquistadors.
The quipus are not considered to be a written script, but merely something resembling a tally stick used for storing numerical data. The general consensus is that the Incans did not have a written language. Therefore, its inclusion into this list seems questionable as recorded numerical data can hardly be considered to be written works.
Abvgd ( talk) 15:00, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
According to the Madrid Codex, the fourth tlatoani Itzcoatl (ruling from 1427 (or 1428) to 1440) ordered the burning of all historical codices because it was "not wise that all the people should know the paintings".[2] Among other purposes, this allowed the Aztec state to develop a state-sanctioned history and mythos that venerated Huitzilopochtli.
Done - Since nobody has objected to it. Abvgd ( talk) 23:58, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
I can find no support for the statement that the unpublished works of the Marquis de Sade were destroyed by his son, and what references I can find to the destruction of works state that the Les Journées de Florbelle was destroyed by the police. Should this be changed? It's not remotely an area of expertise for me (either history in general or de Sade specifically), so I didn't want to make the change without discussion. Infophiliac 23:22, 10 December 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Infophiliac ( talk • contribs)
I think it would be great if someone could expand the introduction to include an overview of how different writing materials and techniques used in the past affected the long-term preservation of writings as well as something on the state of preservation of the main written cultures of the past (i.e. how much is estimated lost and/or extant). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abvgd ( talk • contribs) 22:02, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
Abvgd ( talk) 22:04, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
Since no one else gave a shot at an article rewrite, I decided to act on my own suggestion... This is a first, tentative draft of a possible rewrite of the main text of the article. It includes most of the existing introductory paragraph, but expands into a historical overview of writing materials and major waves of losses and rediscoveries. It might be a little on the lengthy side, though I've tried to keep it short and it's hard to properly summarize these things in just a few sentences. In any case, I would appreciate feedback concerning the length and scope of the article.
Also, the text's focus is on the Mediterranean and Europe (as is the existing list of lost works itself), but I'm sure a few sentences could be added subsequently on writing materials and losses/rediscoveries of Chinese, Indian and other written cultures. I'll happily take comments and rewrite suggestions - and of course I'd happily let someone else adapt and publish this text as he sees fit. For now, I'll simply let the text be here in the talk section to hear the opinions of others. Eventually, if no one else says or does anything at all on the subject of the article rewrite, I'll update the article myself...
So, anyway, here's the draft:
Can someone add information on works which mention lost works? Aren't there action-adventure novels where a lost work has been discovered and the good guys are trying to retrieve it from the bad guys, for example? I can't think of any specifically; the novels I know of, tend to portray fictional lost works. 99.9.112.31 ( talk)NotWillDecker —Preceding undated comment added 16:57, 23 April 2010 (UTC).
The Barhaspatya sutras seem like they should go on this list, though I'm not sure where. Maybe someone could add them to the list? Gary ( talk) 20:55, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Can any sources be found for 'List of Famous Whores' and 'Greek Terms of Abuse'?
Abvgd ( talk) 20:48, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
I've read several places about the reported books by Diogenes. Most importantly in "Lives of the eminent philsophers" by Diogenes Laertius where he list several books attributed to Diogenes. He also does cite people who dispute that at least some of these books were actually written by him. Ive added him with a note trying to portray that the authorship of these books are bot lost and questioned. If anyone think that it should be removed I would ask them to comment both so I know the reason and that we have a presedent for how to write up this type of books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.50.162.174 ( talk) 11:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Lost work. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:19, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
Various websites and videogames are now completely unplayable or accessible due to servers going down or links going dead. SHould these be added? Maybe their own page? Error four oh four ( talk) 12:55, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
The lead contains phrases that elicit a "duh!" response from the reader, which is inappropriate for a Wiki article. Examples: or accidentally by anyone
and Of course works that no one has subsequently referred to remain unknown
. While I appreciate how editors will want to cover all bases, the tone here is a bit too light for an encyclopedia.
CapnZapp (
talk)
11:38, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
How is the Manuscrito de Astorga lost? Googling around I found a page in old Spanish that seems to be it or a part of it. Did Franco or his heirs lose it?
Should there be a related article called lost art forms? For instance, Damascus steel/swords?
Previously the list header was "Notable lost work" - ie. that we claim the works are notable. I don't question this, but if we are to claim notability we need to source each and every such claim.
In the absence of such referencing, I changed the header to avoid claiming notability. Instead I added template text to say the list "may never be able to satisfy particular standards for completeness", which gets us off the hook (ie. we don't want to have to answer the question why one item on the list and another isn't). CapnZapp ( talk) 14:53, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
Right now, it says
Well known, but not recovered, works are described by compilations that did survive. For example, the Naturalis Historia of Pliny the Elder or the De Architectura of Vitruvius.
But, according to those articles, those works are recovered, apparently in complete or nearly so. They were (considered) lost, but were saved in compilations; since (I gather) they weren't indexed under their own titles, but rather under the the title of the compilation, their existance was not know, for a while. That is, they were in the complilations, not merely described in them, and were recovered.
Not being an expert here, I didn't change it, but shouldn't it be? Herostratus ( talk) 18:42, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
If anyone has a mind significantly to expand the Classical Western list, Diogenes Laërtius Lives of the Philosophers is chock-a-block full of Greek titles. For each (or almost each) of the philosophers, Diogenes lists their works, often in the dozens. Almost none of them has survived. The procedure would be to go thru the authors one by one and collate: [1]