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Hello again, everyone! While I appreciate and respect the work that Epachamo and John Foxe have done on this page with respect to when the plates were reportedly returned to Joseph Smith, there seems to be some disagreement or difference of opinion between the two editors as far as the precise wording to use. According to the sourcing in this Wikipedia article on that subject, Bushman, a historian, was quoted as saying that the revelation received by Smith on this matter (Doctrine and Covenants 3) said that the plates would be returned to him in mid-September 1828. So I went back to the passage in question, and what the cited verses actually note is that Smith is still called to the work and will translate again if he remains faithful. In other words, in the revelation cited by BUshman to back up his assertion that the plates were returned to Joseph Smith one year to the exact day from when he originally received the plates does not actually say that will be the case. I understand that things get more than slightly sticky when speaking about what primary sources say vs. what secondary sources say, but I am not sure what the exact protocol is when a secondary source makes a claim about a primary source that is not factual. Wikipedia is not about what is true, but what is verifiable, so the way I see it, Bushman is making a claim or assumption based on a source that doesn't say what he says it says. My vote, as noted earlier, would be to add some kind of context or supporting additional sources to settle this distinction one way or the other. Just wanted to put this out there. Sorry this was such a lengthy comment, but I hope it made my thought process and reasoning on this clear enough. Either way, there has got to be some middle-ground method to resolve the discrepancy, because at the moment, the reader consulting both sources is likely to get confused on this matter as is. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 01:58, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
"Joseph went back to Harmony in July 1828, suffering, as he later wrote, much “affliction of soul.” As he later told the story, the angel appeared and returned the interpreters, which had been taken from him when Harris went off with the manuscript. <Bushman makes no mention when or if the interpreters were returned again>... Lucy said Joseph was put on probation. If he showed proper penitence, the interpreters would be returned on September 22, the day of his annual interview with Moroni for the past four years. ... Lucy Smith said that Joseph received the interpreters again on September 22, 1828 ... (Footnote 46) Although the assertion clashes with other accounts, David Whitmer said Moroni did not return the Urim and Thummim in September. Instead Joseph used a seerstone for the remaining translation. Kansas City Journal, June 19, 1881, Omaha Herald, Oct. 17, 1886; Interview (1885), in Whitmer, Interviews, 72, 157, 200. Of the translation process, Emma said, “The first that my husband translated, was translated by the use of the Urim, and Thummim, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost, after that he used a small stone, not exactly black, but was rather a dark color.”" Emma Smith Bidamon to Emma Pilgrim, Mar. 27, 1870, in EMD, 1:532.
Upon returning to Harmony, he said the angel had taken back the plates and spectacles. As a result, he had lost his gift of seeing, and for a season, heaven fell silent... In his history, he later minimized this period of uncertainty by claiming that, despite the withdrawal of the plates and spectacles, he received angelic encouragement. “Immediately after my return home I was walking out a little distance,” he said in 1838, “when, behold, the former heavenly messenger appeared and handed to me the Urim and Thummim again ..." Obscuring the nature and duration of his indecision when he wrote his 1838-39 history, he reported that “immediately” after he returned to Harmony, he received a revelation resolving the matter and that the plates and interpreters were returned after only “a few days.” ... He explained that even after he regained possession of the plates, presumably in mid-July 1828, ... Contradicting the “few days” of Joseph’s 1838-39 history, Lucy remembered that the angel had told him the plates would be returned on 22 September 1828 if he was sufficiently worthy."Vogel, Dan. Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet (A Biography) (Kindle Locations 4951-4952, 5801-5803). Signature Books. Kindle Edition.
The article makes a claim. The arcane references is almost unintelligible/intelligible. I tried to fix this, but it was reverted. Can someone make heads or tails of the reference, and put it into plain English? because as it stands it looks like someone being tricky, to keep the claim of a deathbed confession in the article. It is a single reference given that apparently makes this claim, if someone could get the actual quotation so that we can make sure it does? and also rewrite the reference in plain language? https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Lost_116_pages&oldid=prev&diff=1076279422 Misty MH ( talk) 07:37, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
Section header has been in the article for years. Two references given, both reliable.
However, the supposed "evil men" (if they existed) could just as easily alter the stolen manuscript to contradict any new account. [1] [2] When Smith reached the end of the book, he said he was told that God had foreseen the loss of the early manuscript and had prepared the same history in an abridged format that emphasized religious history, the Small Plates of Nephi. [3]
2A02:908:192:FBE0:B00B:5CB3:BD60:9063 ( talk) 14:18, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
References
It will not be clear to many a reader (and is not clear to this reader) what "interpreters" means under section "The manuscript disappears". It apparently is not the "seer stones", and perhaps not the "spectacles", which at some point some article says was eventually used almost-interchangeably with "seer stones". What "interpreters" were taken away and then returned, according to a story in the article? Misty MH ( talk) 04:33, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Lost 116 pages article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about personal beliefs, nor for engaging in Apologetics/ Polemics. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about personal beliefs, nor for engaging in Apologetics/ Polemics at the Reference desk. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 180 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
Hello again, everyone! While I appreciate and respect the work that Epachamo and John Foxe have done on this page with respect to when the plates were reportedly returned to Joseph Smith, there seems to be some disagreement or difference of opinion between the two editors as far as the precise wording to use. According to the sourcing in this Wikipedia article on that subject, Bushman, a historian, was quoted as saying that the revelation received by Smith on this matter (Doctrine and Covenants 3) said that the plates would be returned to him in mid-September 1828. So I went back to the passage in question, and what the cited verses actually note is that Smith is still called to the work and will translate again if he remains faithful. In other words, in the revelation cited by BUshman to back up his assertion that the plates were returned to Joseph Smith one year to the exact day from when he originally received the plates does not actually say that will be the case. I understand that things get more than slightly sticky when speaking about what primary sources say vs. what secondary sources say, but I am not sure what the exact protocol is when a secondary source makes a claim about a primary source that is not factual. Wikipedia is not about what is true, but what is verifiable, so the way I see it, Bushman is making a claim or assumption based on a source that doesn't say what he says it says. My vote, as noted earlier, would be to add some kind of context or supporting additional sources to settle this distinction one way or the other. Just wanted to put this out there. Sorry this was such a lengthy comment, but I hope it made my thought process and reasoning on this clear enough. Either way, there has got to be some middle-ground method to resolve the discrepancy, because at the moment, the reader consulting both sources is likely to get confused on this matter as is. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 01:58, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
"Joseph went back to Harmony in July 1828, suffering, as he later wrote, much “affliction of soul.” As he later told the story, the angel appeared and returned the interpreters, which had been taken from him when Harris went off with the manuscript. <Bushman makes no mention when or if the interpreters were returned again>... Lucy said Joseph was put on probation. If he showed proper penitence, the interpreters would be returned on September 22, the day of his annual interview with Moroni for the past four years. ... Lucy Smith said that Joseph received the interpreters again on September 22, 1828 ... (Footnote 46) Although the assertion clashes with other accounts, David Whitmer said Moroni did not return the Urim and Thummim in September. Instead Joseph used a seerstone for the remaining translation. Kansas City Journal, June 19, 1881, Omaha Herald, Oct. 17, 1886; Interview (1885), in Whitmer, Interviews, 72, 157, 200. Of the translation process, Emma said, “The first that my husband translated, was translated by the use of the Urim, and Thummim, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost, after that he used a small stone, not exactly black, but was rather a dark color.”" Emma Smith Bidamon to Emma Pilgrim, Mar. 27, 1870, in EMD, 1:532.
Upon returning to Harmony, he said the angel had taken back the plates and spectacles. As a result, he had lost his gift of seeing, and for a season, heaven fell silent... In his history, he later minimized this period of uncertainty by claiming that, despite the withdrawal of the plates and spectacles, he received angelic encouragement. “Immediately after my return home I was walking out a little distance,” he said in 1838, “when, behold, the former heavenly messenger appeared and handed to me the Urim and Thummim again ..." Obscuring the nature and duration of his indecision when he wrote his 1838-39 history, he reported that “immediately” after he returned to Harmony, he received a revelation resolving the matter and that the plates and interpreters were returned after only “a few days.” ... He explained that even after he regained possession of the plates, presumably in mid-July 1828, ... Contradicting the “few days” of Joseph’s 1838-39 history, Lucy remembered that the angel had told him the plates would be returned on 22 September 1828 if he was sufficiently worthy."Vogel, Dan. Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet (A Biography) (Kindle Locations 4951-4952, 5801-5803). Signature Books. Kindle Edition.
The article makes a claim. The arcane references is almost unintelligible/intelligible. I tried to fix this, but it was reverted. Can someone make heads or tails of the reference, and put it into plain English? because as it stands it looks like someone being tricky, to keep the claim of a deathbed confession in the article. It is a single reference given that apparently makes this claim, if someone could get the actual quotation so that we can make sure it does? and also rewrite the reference in plain language? https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Lost_116_pages&oldid=prev&diff=1076279422 Misty MH ( talk) 07:37, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
Section header has been in the article for years. Two references given, both reliable.
However, the supposed "evil men" (if they existed) could just as easily alter the stolen manuscript to contradict any new account. [1] [2] When Smith reached the end of the book, he said he was told that God had foreseen the loss of the early manuscript and had prepared the same history in an abridged format that emphasized religious history, the Small Plates of Nephi. [3]
2A02:908:192:FBE0:B00B:5CB3:BD60:9063 ( talk) 14:18, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
References
It will not be clear to many a reader (and is not clear to this reader) what "interpreters" means under section "The manuscript disappears". It apparently is not the "seer stones", and perhaps not the "spectacles", which at some point some article says was eventually used almost-interchangeably with "seer stones". What "interpreters" were taken away and then returned, according to a story in the article? Misty MH ( talk) 04:33, 18 May 2023 (UTC)