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This archive page covers approximately the dates between January 2006 and April 2006.
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Someone feels the need to aggressively defend keeping an observation about Rose & Bernard's race in the B&W section. Two of us have removed it as irrelevant and dubious, but it's been reinserted. Let me explain why this tidbit is both dubious and irrelevant. It is dubious in two ways: first, it is questionable as to the true nature of its posting, as in, what's the real motivation behind this repeated posting (since a reasonable person would be able to see that it's more than about any taboos on race), but more importantly, it is doubtful that it is an example of the dichotomy of opposition black & white are used to entail. One must ask themselves, since its probably likely that everyone noticed this little fact, does this relate to the use of the theme within the show? And, quite clearly in Rose & Bernard's case, it doesn't: Rose and Bernard are, at this point, very much not in any form of opposition, to either themselves or anyone else. They're both very nice, loving, caring people who just happen to be of a different skin color. It is quite doubtful that, given the nature of the section, we should equate a difference in skin color to a form of opposition (which is also why the observation of Locke and Eko's skin color has been removed repeatedly). Until the show makes it about opposition, there's no there... there. This can be taken a step further, making this irrelevant, because, since the section builds off of Locke's comments from the pilot, invoking the images of light and dark in opposition, skin color is completely irrelevant to determinations of that sort. Every example given in that section is representative of an opposition, on the sides of light and dark (even if only in the character's minds) between and within characters. Jack hiding the stones from Locke (the opposition between Locke and Jack, which Jack obviously felt to be real, even from that early stage), the color of Sawyer's glasses (the opposition within Sawyer's mind), the initial opposition between the two camps (the opposition between a group that just killed one of the other group's members)... all examples of this type of opposition. There simply isn't any opposition of a deeper sort between Rose & Bernard... skin color is a pretty flimsy example, especially when it doesn't even make sense given the overall use of B&W in the show. Even the show itself has commented on the irrelevancy of this "example", through Jack's exasperated (though not disdainful... an expression akin to, "Yeah, and?") dismissal of Hurley's comments about the couple. Further, factuality is not the datum for inclusion, verifiability is, and making the claim that Rose and Bernard's racial distinction is an example of the dichotomy invoked by Locke himself, and will be used by the producers as such in connection with the use of black and white throughout the show, is unverifiable. As always, perhaps, one day, when Rose & Bernard get their flashback episode (expected sometime in Season 3), this will become an important example... and if so, it can go in then. Baryonyx 18:20, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Locke and Eko represent Pagan and Christian faith respectively. The two of them are in opposition. MrMorgan 15:37, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the B/W theme for Rose & Bernard was further explained in "S.O.S." Simply put, their personalities are quite distinctive. Rose is a calm, rational woman who sees things as matters of fact, no matter how dire the fate may be (as seen with her reaction to her terminal illness). Bernard is an ambitious, easily flustered man who doesn't resign himself to fate (as seen with the S.O.S. sign and Isaac of Uluru). Despite their highly opposite behaviors, their relationship is warm, solid and pure. I believe the meaning behind this is that opposites can easily coexist, and often thrive that way. Tejayes 18:45, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
My wife and I are a black and white married couple for fifteen years, so I have a personal opinion on this topic. Many folks will argue they see opposites when they look at an interracial marriage, others will say they see nothing but two people. Some people get so incredibly nervous about recognizing two different races, they want to go out of their way to play the PC card. But it is something different regardless of your personal neurosis over the issue. As you can see by now, it's more than just skin color in LOST. Rose and Bernard's personalities are opposites which is a direct corellation to the current black/white topic. The topic is about black and white, and about opposites coming together. Rose and Bernard are an example of black and white coming together, and showing they can work together. Relax and take a breather, there is nothing wrong politically incorrect with recognizing that Rose and Bernard fit in the current black/white theme thus far.
The Monster article has been created again and supposedly cleaned up, even though it still looks very crufty and full of speculation to me. Joseph has a tendancy of getting into edit wars easily, so instead of taking any hasty actions I would like to discuss what to do about it. Here are a couple of links to reference:
Our options are we can put up another AfD, redirect it to this article, or leave it. I would like to redirect since there's a very high chance of this article being created again. Jtrost ( T | C | #) 01:19, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
As "the monster" has now been added to the main article as part of the "mythology" section, I've attempted to snip out some of the more speculative claims, which someone has insisted on re-inserting. However, in re-reading it, I'm finding it hard not to say that nearly all of it is Original Research, as we as viewers have to make the speculative leap between the the initial presentation of a creature and the "cloud of smoke" which Eko encounters. I seem to recall that Carlton Cuse or Damon Lindelof may have described their understanding of the difference between what Locke may have seen and what Eko experiences; that would be citeable as a basis for the section. Below are some problems I'm having with the following section:
"The monster is the first piece of mythology introduced. It first appears when, on the night after the crash, the survivors hear a load roar coming from the jungle and witness trees being torn down in the distance. The next morning, Jack, Kate, and Charlie go into the jungle to find the transceiver and see the power of the monster first-hand when it rips the pilot from the cockpit and leaves his mangled body in the trees. In " Walkabout", Locke has a direct encounter, but, unlike the pilot, he is spared. In a conversation with Jack, he says of this event, "I looked into the eye of the island. And what I saw was beautiful." The monster has had very few appearances since then, sporadically emerging in the jungle every so often and disrupting the treks of the survivors, who have so far managed to escape it alive. In "The 23rd Psalm", Eko has a confrontation similar to Locke's. The monster is revealed to be a large mass of black smoke, with images from Eko's past flashing throughout it."
It's easy to be "sloppy" in writing such sections which deal with fictional mysteries. My feeling is if they are to be included at all, the content needs to be grounded in the direct presentation or by citing the expanded descriptions from the show's creators.— Leflyman Talk 02:35, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Are you kidding? It's not speculation among fans that the monster did all that stuff, it's fact. But since you seem to absolutely need a source, here's a quote for you from Paul Dini, one of the writers:
"The monster is sort of a reflection of yourself. The pilot saw it in horror and he was killed because he feared the monster. Locke saw the monster with true awe, therefore, he was able to survive his encounter."
You can find it in here: http://www.darkhorizons.com/news04/041109d.php
There you go, in one sentence its confirmed that it was the monster (Yes, its the same one that's doing all of these things, hence why the writers and producers refer to it in the singular form) that killed the Pilot, and later that it spared Locke. However, I think it's ridiculous that I need to prove this to you with a direct quote from a writer considering it's fact among Lost fans (and among the writers) that the monster killed the pilot. For that reason, I don't feel it nessecary to source it, but if you do, feel free to, the link's right above.
I'm changing it back to the way it was (albeit with the changes you suggested about certain words like "roar" and "mass"), and since I have proven that it's been confirmed by the writers, please don't delete it again.
As for the animal section I wrote, you've yet to explain why that's "speculation". It's all fact: they really have come across a polar bear (which doesn't belong on the island), there really was a boar that, Sawyer felt (key words there) was purpossely harassing him, there really was a shark with the DHARMA logo, and there was a horse on the island (something normally not native to the island) that Kate felt she saw before. There's no speculation there or any need for direct quotes from the writers because all of those things can be observed (not assumed) on the show. Some direct quotes, right from the show (which is, obviously, the ultimate source):
From the Pilot:
BOONE: That can't be a polar bear. SAYID and KATE [at the same time]: It's a polar bear. SHANNON: Yeah, but polar bears don't usually live in a jungle. CHARLIE: Spot on. SAYID: Polar bears don't live near this far south. BOONE: This one does.
Here we have confirmation from the characters that it's indeed a polar bear, as well as the disbelief from the characters that a polar bear could live on a tropical island.
From "Outlaws":
KATE: A boar? Did all this? SAWYER: Last night -- wrecked my tent. This morning when I went to get my tent back it attacks me from behind and runs off into the jungle like a coward. KATE: A boar wouldn't just attack you for no reason. SAWYER: Thank you, boar expert. This one did. It's harassing me.
A direct quote from Sawyer in which he believes that the boar is harassing him on purpose.
From "What Kate Did":
KATE: You need a haircut. SAWYER: Oh, really? [Sawyer sees something in the distance] Maybe you ought to take me back inside.
[Kate turns to see the black horse.]
KATE: You see that? SAWYER: If you mean the big ass horse standing in the middle of the jungle, then yeah.
[Kate approaches the horse and nuzzles it before it walks away.]
SAWYER: Do you know that horse, Freckles? KATE: Yeah, I do.
Here we have confirmation that Kate (as well as Sawyer, to establish it's not a figment of her imagination) sees the horse, and she establishes to Sawyer that she thinks she has seen the horse before.
There's no need to reference to any of these things though because, as part of the show, these things can easily be observed and established (as opposed to assumed). There's no quote refering to the Dharma lgo on the shark, but that too can be observed... there's no speculation. All that I've put down is observations, not speculation.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.142.35.180 ( talk • contribs)
Someone created an article for the Ultraviolet map. I put up an afd for it. You can vote here. Jtrost ( T | C | #) 18:31, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Camperdave: I found a copy of this map in a copy of Entertainment Magazine (I think). While I don't watch the show LOST, but I may have found something on the map - Heavy Water!
I put a box around an area, that in my personal magazine copy of this map, describes that there is underground heavy water. Image:Lost_heavy_water.JPG
I am aware that "bad" things are happening on the island. Heavy Water is bad for you...
The smaller text is the part that describes it... Camperdave 02:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
The afd resulted in no consensus. Right now I see two options: delete all of the OR and speculation out of the article, or put another afd on it. The problem with the first option is that if we do that then there will be almost no content on the page. I'm perfectly happy with the second option, but I don't think other authors share my same enthusiasm about it. Jtrost ( T | C | #) 23:30, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
If the last afd resulted in no consensus, there's no reason to assume that another one will prevail. Looks to me like only the first of your two options is viable. I certainly agree that it will drastically reduce the content on the page. Here are some concrete things that I propose be done:
Anything else? -- PKtm 00:24, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
The article currently says that the "Lost Video Diaries" will be distributed in early 2006. Did this happen as scheduled? If so, is there any information available about the content of these mini-episodes? (Does anyone actually call them mobisodes?) A Google search found only coverage of the press release, saying that they would be available in January 2006, but I didn't manage to find any information about the episodes themselves. Anybody here know anything about them? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 03:42, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
the show mentions b. f. skinner, and maybe the article should talk a little about that. operant conditioning, utopian society, etc... hello? the plot's pretty predictable if a person just reads a little about b. f. skinner (his mention in the dharma initiative orientation tape).
Another fun afd! Article | AFD Jtrost ( T | C | #) 13:13, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not one for getting into an edit war, having now had two reversions on this, but please consider this from Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links):
"On the other hand, do not make too many links. An article may be considered overlinked if any of the following is true:
I don't believe that this article is so long that it's inconvenient to scroll up to the the list of characters. In addition to that list and elsewhere, Locke is linked three times within the "References to Philosophers" section alone, and his real-life counterpart is linked twice. Surely you can see that this is nonsensical? Chris 42 15:50, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure about the significance of this, but the number 108 (the sum of the numbers) and Dharma (as in DHARMA initiative) both link in to Hinduism, particularly with Veda
The number 108 occurs countless times in Hinduism and in other Indian cultures, further reading can be found here
Dharma can be interpreted as "God's will," and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi once said that the number 108 represents God.
I can't really relate this properly to the plot of Lost, but there is a definite link here.
Ooh, also 'Namaste' is written in the 'access denied' sections of the Hanso Organisation website, and also spoken by Dr. Marvin Candle, speaker of the orientation movie. It is a yogic greeting, and is from Hindi.
Recently it has come under discussion the deletion of the Lostpedia entry. as per that discussion it has been said that a link to this page is preferrable to an article. I have included both Lostpedia and Lostlinks to include two very important gateways to the LOST fandom. -- GodEmperorOfHell 21:50, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
hey there, I was woundring, why shouldn't there be a LOST
Portal? I just created a
portal for
Saudi Arabia, it looks hard but Wikipedia really makes it easy! I think there should be one! tell me what you think--
muhaidib-- (
Talk |
#info |
)
03:34, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
My feeling is, as there is already a Lost Category, there's no real need for a "portal" as yet. Further, since there are some controveries about the organization of some articles, it would be jumping the gun to put up a portal.
You might instead want to consider helping to start up a Wikiproject, which have a similar purpose as a portal, but are aimed at organizing/improving content. Some examples are the Doctor Who and the Buffyverse Wikiprojects. There's been some discussion prior to starting up such an effort.-- Leflyman Talk 01:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
In a recent episode, I think it was this week, I saw Locke trying to recopy the the map on a piece of paper. The paper contained what appeared to be a poem in french. I coul have sworn I saw the word jeune (Young), and would appreciate a full (or better) copy of the poem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Camperdave ( talk • contribs)
Removed from the Story Elements section:
- Leflyman Talk 20:02, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
1) "Healing" is not a "story element". If anything, it's yet another of the many supposed "mysteries" of the Island, which are yet unexplained. What you might take as fact is an interpretation of the story. An alternative interpretation could hold that the characters were not actually "cured".
2) The section admits that the "healing" theory is a guess, saying "There is also some speculation..."
3)It includes additional speculation that Jack is a "miracle healer" and that his operation of Sarah "seemed impossible".-- Leflyman Talk 04:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
The interconnections section I added is not speculation. It contains nothing more than specific descriptions of scenes from the show. I have re-added the section. Before removing the section again, can the editor explain the logic of the removal, and how the section is speculative? Thanks -- Jake11 02:17, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Isn't the whole Sawyer and Jack's dad incident significant? It was in an episode that concluded with Jack being told by Sawyer that Jack's dad did respect Jack and appreciate what he had done. This is the culmination of a quite important development of Jack's character which was led up to in previous episodes, e.g. his guilt over what had happened to his dad. I think it's certainly worth mentioning the encounter, and there are other such "interconnections" that would fit right in with the mention.
I'm not at all convinced that such interconnections don't count as story elements. It certainly seems much more substantial than the whole bit about black and white, which I totally missed (black and white shirts?). Probably these other things like literary references fall under the category of story elements that "other elements provide a deeper understanding of the story"; however, I don't see why the interconnections section doesn't provide such a deeper understanding. It's certainly improved my understanding to realize that Libby was actually also in the same institution as Hurley, that Rose saw Locke in his wheelchair (this is also significant in the episode about Rose), that Anna-Lucia met Jack in the bar before the island, and that Shannon gets Sayid in trouble with airport security (thus making her later change and relationship with him have added meaning).
We should certainly edit the section and bring up its quality (rewording, for example, the statement about Sawyer's conversation with Jack's dad), but I see no grounds for totally removing it. Please don't delete it again without further discussion here. -- C S (Talk) 23:28, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Even though I highly disagree with this section, I migrated the content from the Characters page onto this one because it is less speculative and cites a source for original claims it makes. I would still like further discussion on this because this is in no way a stroy element. Jtrost ( T | C | #) 15:09, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
The site may be official, but it's still fancruft, by definition, and it's not notable for a separate Wikipedia article. Please see and discuss at the AfD entry at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oceanic flight 815 website. PKtm 15:27, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Background: an edit war has transpired on Danielle Rousseau (note that this is a different page from the one I just listed on AfD) since the end of March, when it was created as a full article, rather than just a redirect to the Characters of Lost page, which it had been since last November. One user was blocked on Friday ( WP:3RR) for repeatedly reverting the text to a full article rather than a redirect. Immediately upon his return, he created this new page, Danielle Rousseau (Lost), as a full article, similar to the old full article, but with some new text taken from Lostpedia. Please see and discuss at the AfD entry at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Danielle Rousseau (Lost). -- PKtm 04:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Who? Blade 22:10, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm renting from amazon and trying to avoid the 'how they made Lost' dvds. Amazon don't describe what is on each dvd
thanks, but the version amazon uk are sending me is this one [1] which has 8 discs (along with Season 1 - Part 2 has 4 discs). I know disc 4 (of season 1 part 1) is 'special features' because I got stung already. Do you know if any of the other discs in this version are 'special features'? thanks in advance
Everything seen is a fictional reality taking place in one or more of the survivors' minds — dismissed by Damon Lindelof [13]
Does the episode "Dave" not discount this? 138.162.5.8 18:38, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I would like everyone to be aware that there is a straw poll at Talk: List of Lost episodes to decide the fate of the Lost articles. Many of us work hard and regularly edit the Lost article. We all realize how difficult it is to maintain quality, non-speculative, grammatically correct articles. I hope everyone will realize how difficult it will be to maintain quality for the 100+ articles that will be created were we to make a new article for each episode. Please consider this carefully. Danflave 16:03, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I have some problems with the way that this section has been divided up: 1) How is "Familial Dysfunction" a thematic motif that has "no direct impact on the story itself." Familial dysfunction is an element of the story, not "literary or philosophical subtext" that is "unnecessary for the enjoyment of the series." 2) The numbers, although at some points they do have an impact on the story, are also "subtly embedded within scenes," making them as much a recurring motif as "Black and White" and "Eyes" are. 3) Couldn't any of the thematic elements be part of the mythology of the series? We really won't know the significance of any of these elements until the show is over.-- Silentword 16:24, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
An idea I had recently: does anyone think we should make an entire page dedicated to the phenomena we see on the show (for example, the Monster, the numbers, the polar bear, the healings, etc)? Similar to the character page, we could list all of the phenomena on that page, list what episodes they appear in (or at least the first episode it appeared in), then give a description of that phenomena, it's appearences, and list debunked theories and other bits of data that have been collected. I think this could save a lot of room onseveral other pages, as well as give a good reference for all those Lost fans out there that are trying to come up with their own theories.
I have attempted to standardize the punctuation on this page to conform with the American convention of putting commas and periods inside quotation marks. While I acknowledge that there are different acceptable ways to punctuate articles on Wikipedia, punctuation using the American convention should be strongly favored in this article. This show is produced by an American production company for an American TV network. The three creators are Americans. The composer is American. Most of the main characters are American. (However, many are not.) The series is filmed mostly in Hawaii. And, of course, the article begins, "Lost is an American drama-adventure television series..." These considerations weigh in favor of using the American convention. LegalSwoop 23:15, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
The crossovers section states that the first crossover was in "Outlaws". However, in "Hearts and Minds", when Boone is talking to the Australian police, Sawyer appears in the background, and even says something. Does this count as a crossover (since it wasn't at the airport)? If not, why not? -- Kahlfin 19:05, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
You're right, it is. Just changed it. Thanks for pointing this out.
There are currently two polls on The DHARMA Initiative page:
Please voice your opinions on these. Jtrost ( T | C | #) 12:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
This archive page covers approximately the dates between January 2006 and April 2006.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying the section you are replying to if necessary. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.)
Someone feels the need to aggressively defend keeping an observation about Rose & Bernard's race in the B&W section. Two of us have removed it as irrelevant and dubious, but it's been reinserted. Let me explain why this tidbit is both dubious and irrelevant. It is dubious in two ways: first, it is questionable as to the true nature of its posting, as in, what's the real motivation behind this repeated posting (since a reasonable person would be able to see that it's more than about any taboos on race), but more importantly, it is doubtful that it is an example of the dichotomy of opposition black & white are used to entail. One must ask themselves, since its probably likely that everyone noticed this little fact, does this relate to the use of the theme within the show? And, quite clearly in Rose & Bernard's case, it doesn't: Rose and Bernard are, at this point, very much not in any form of opposition, to either themselves or anyone else. They're both very nice, loving, caring people who just happen to be of a different skin color. It is quite doubtful that, given the nature of the section, we should equate a difference in skin color to a form of opposition (which is also why the observation of Locke and Eko's skin color has been removed repeatedly). Until the show makes it about opposition, there's no there... there. This can be taken a step further, making this irrelevant, because, since the section builds off of Locke's comments from the pilot, invoking the images of light and dark in opposition, skin color is completely irrelevant to determinations of that sort. Every example given in that section is representative of an opposition, on the sides of light and dark (even if only in the character's minds) between and within characters. Jack hiding the stones from Locke (the opposition between Locke and Jack, which Jack obviously felt to be real, even from that early stage), the color of Sawyer's glasses (the opposition within Sawyer's mind), the initial opposition between the two camps (the opposition between a group that just killed one of the other group's members)... all examples of this type of opposition. There simply isn't any opposition of a deeper sort between Rose & Bernard... skin color is a pretty flimsy example, especially when it doesn't even make sense given the overall use of B&W in the show. Even the show itself has commented on the irrelevancy of this "example", through Jack's exasperated (though not disdainful... an expression akin to, "Yeah, and?") dismissal of Hurley's comments about the couple. Further, factuality is not the datum for inclusion, verifiability is, and making the claim that Rose and Bernard's racial distinction is an example of the dichotomy invoked by Locke himself, and will be used by the producers as such in connection with the use of black and white throughout the show, is unverifiable. As always, perhaps, one day, when Rose & Bernard get their flashback episode (expected sometime in Season 3), this will become an important example... and if so, it can go in then. Baryonyx 18:20, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Locke and Eko represent Pagan and Christian faith respectively. The two of them are in opposition. MrMorgan 15:37, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the B/W theme for Rose & Bernard was further explained in "S.O.S." Simply put, their personalities are quite distinctive. Rose is a calm, rational woman who sees things as matters of fact, no matter how dire the fate may be (as seen with her reaction to her terminal illness). Bernard is an ambitious, easily flustered man who doesn't resign himself to fate (as seen with the S.O.S. sign and Isaac of Uluru). Despite their highly opposite behaviors, their relationship is warm, solid and pure. I believe the meaning behind this is that opposites can easily coexist, and often thrive that way. Tejayes 18:45, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
My wife and I are a black and white married couple for fifteen years, so I have a personal opinion on this topic. Many folks will argue they see opposites when they look at an interracial marriage, others will say they see nothing but two people. Some people get so incredibly nervous about recognizing two different races, they want to go out of their way to play the PC card. But it is something different regardless of your personal neurosis over the issue. As you can see by now, it's more than just skin color in LOST. Rose and Bernard's personalities are opposites which is a direct corellation to the current black/white topic. The topic is about black and white, and about opposites coming together. Rose and Bernard are an example of black and white coming together, and showing they can work together. Relax and take a breather, there is nothing wrong politically incorrect with recognizing that Rose and Bernard fit in the current black/white theme thus far.
The Monster article has been created again and supposedly cleaned up, even though it still looks very crufty and full of speculation to me. Joseph has a tendancy of getting into edit wars easily, so instead of taking any hasty actions I would like to discuss what to do about it. Here are a couple of links to reference:
Our options are we can put up another AfD, redirect it to this article, or leave it. I would like to redirect since there's a very high chance of this article being created again. Jtrost ( T | C | #) 01:19, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
As "the monster" has now been added to the main article as part of the "mythology" section, I've attempted to snip out some of the more speculative claims, which someone has insisted on re-inserting. However, in re-reading it, I'm finding it hard not to say that nearly all of it is Original Research, as we as viewers have to make the speculative leap between the the initial presentation of a creature and the "cloud of smoke" which Eko encounters. I seem to recall that Carlton Cuse or Damon Lindelof may have described their understanding of the difference between what Locke may have seen and what Eko experiences; that would be citeable as a basis for the section. Below are some problems I'm having with the following section:
"The monster is the first piece of mythology introduced. It first appears when, on the night after the crash, the survivors hear a load roar coming from the jungle and witness trees being torn down in the distance. The next morning, Jack, Kate, and Charlie go into the jungle to find the transceiver and see the power of the monster first-hand when it rips the pilot from the cockpit and leaves his mangled body in the trees. In " Walkabout", Locke has a direct encounter, but, unlike the pilot, he is spared. In a conversation with Jack, he says of this event, "I looked into the eye of the island. And what I saw was beautiful." The monster has had very few appearances since then, sporadically emerging in the jungle every so often and disrupting the treks of the survivors, who have so far managed to escape it alive. In "The 23rd Psalm", Eko has a confrontation similar to Locke's. The monster is revealed to be a large mass of black smoke, with images from Eko's past flashing throughout it."
It's easy to be "sloppy" in writing such sections which deal with fictional mysteries. My feeling is if they are to be included at all, the content needs to be grounded in the direct presentation or by citing the expanded descriptions from the show's creators.— Leflyman Talk 02:35, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Are you kidding? It's not speculation among fans that the monster did all that stuff, it's fact. But since you seem to absolutely need a source, here's a quote for you from Paul Dini, one of the writers:
"The monster is sort of a reflection of yourself. The pilot saw it in horror and he was killed because he feared the monster. Locke saw the monster with true awe, therefore, he was able to survive his encounter."
You can find it in here: http://www.darkhorizons.com/news04/041109d.php
There you go, in one sentence its confirmed that it was the monster (Yes, its the same one that's doing all of these things, hence why the writers and producers refer to it in the singular form) that killed the Pilot, and later that it spared Locke. However, I think it's ridiculous that I need to prove this to you with a direct quote from a writer considering it's fact among Lost fans (and among the writers) that the monster killed the pilot. For that reason, I don't feel it nessecary to source it, but if you do, feel free to, the link's right above.
I'm changing it back to the way it was (albeit with the changes you suggested about certain words like "roar" and "mass"), and since I have proven that it's been confirmed by the writers, please don't delete it again.
As for the animal section I wrote, you've yet to explain why that's "speculation". It's all fact: they really have come across a polar bear (which doesn't belong on the island), there really was a boar that, Sawyer felt (key words there) was purpossely harassing him, there really was a shark with the DHARMA logo, and there was a horse on the island (something normally not native to the island) that Kate felt she saw before. There's no speculation there or any need for direct quotes from the writers because all of those things can be observed (not assumed) on the show. Some direct quotes, right from the show (which is, obviously, the ultimate source):
From the Pilot:
BOONE: That can't be a polar bear. SAYID and KATE [at the same time]: It's a polar bear. SHANNON: Yeah, but polar bears don't usually live in a jungle. CHARLIE: Spot on. SAYID: Polar bears don't live near this far south. BOONE: This one does.
Here we have confirmation from the characters that it's indeed a polar bear, as well as the disbelief from the characters that a polar bear could live on a tropical island.
From "Outlaws":
KATE: A boar? Did all this? SAWYER: Last night -- wrecked my tent. This morning when I went to get my tent back it attacks me from behind and runs off into the jungle like a coward. KATE: A boar wouldn't just attack you for no reason. SAWYER: Thank you, boar expert. This one did. It's harassing me.
A direct quote from Sawyer in which he believes that the boar is harassing him on purpose.
From "What Kate Did":
KATE: You need a haircut. SAWYER: Oh, really? [Sawyer sees something in the distance] Maybe you ought to take me back inside.
[Kate turns to see the black horse.]
KATE: You see that? SAWYER: If you mean the big ass horse standing in the middle of the jungle, then yeah.
[Kate approaches the horse and nuzzles it before it walks away.]
SAWYER: Do you know that horse, Freckles? KATE: Yeah, I do.
Here we have confirmation that Kate (as well as Sawyer, to establish it's not a figment of her imagination) sees the horse, and she establishes to Sawyer that she thinks she has seen the horse before.
There's no need to reference to any of these things though because, as part of the show, these things can easily be observed and established (as opposed to assumed). There's no quote refering to the Dharma lgo on the shark, but that too can be observed... there's no speculation. All that I've put down is observations, not speculation.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.142.35.180 ( talk • contribs)
Someone created an article for the Ultraviolet map. I put up an afd for it. You can vote here. Jtrost ( T | C | #) 18:31, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Camperdave: I found a copy of this map in a copy of Entertainment Magazine (I think). While I don't watch the show LOST, but I may have found something on the map - Heavy Water!
I put a box around an area, that in my personal magazine copy of this map, describes that there is underground heavy water. Image:Lost_heavy_water.JPG
I am aware that "bad" things are happening on the island. Heavy Water is bad for you...
The smaller text is the part that describes it... Camperdave 02:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
The afd resulted in no consensus. Right now I see two options: delete all of the OR and speculation out of the article, or put another afd on it. The problem with the first option is that if we do that then there will be almost no content on the page. I'm perfectly happy with the second option, but I don't think other authors share my same enthusiasm about it. Jtrost ( T | C | #) 23:30, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
If the last afd resulted in no consensus, there's no reason to assume that another one will prevail. Looks to me like only the first of your two options is viable. I certainly agree that it will drastically reduce the content on the page. Here are some concrete things that I propose be done:
Anything else? -- PKtm 00:24, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
The article currently says that the "Lost Video Diaries" will be distributed in early 2006. Did this happen as scheduled? If so, is there any information available about the content of these mini-episodes? (Does anyone actually call them mobisodes?) A Google search found only coverage of the press release, saying that they would be available in January 2006, but I didn't manage to find any information about the episodes themselves. Anybody here know anything about them? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 03:42, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
the show mentions b. f. skinner, and maybe the article should talk a little about that. operant conditioning, utopian society, etc... hello? the plot's pretty predictable if a person just reads a little about b. f. skinner (his mention in the dharma initiative orientation tape).
Another fun afd! Article | AFD Jtrost ( T | C | #) 13:13, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not one for getting into an edit war, having now had two reversions on this, but please consider this from Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links):
"On the other hand, do not make too many links. An article may be considered overlinked if any of the following is true:
I don't believe that this article is so long that it's inconvenient to scroll up to the the list of characters. In addition to that list and elsewhere, Locke is linked three times within the "References to Philosophers" section alone, and his real-life counterpart is linked twice. Surely you can see that this is nonsensical? Chris 42 15:50, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure about the significance of this, but the number 108 (the sum of the numbers) and Dharma (as in DHARMA initiative) both link in to Hinduism, particularly with Veda
The number 108 occurs countless times in Hinduism and in other Indian cultures, further reading can be found here
Dharma can be interpreted as "God's will," and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi once said that the number 108 represents God.
I can't really relate this properly to the plot of Lost, but there is a definite link here.
Ooh, also 'Namaste' is written in the 'access denied' sections of the Hanso Organisation website, and also spoken by Dr. Marvin Candle, speaker of the orientation movie. It is a yogic greeting, and is from Hindi.
Recently it has come under discussion the deletion of the Lostpedia entry. as per that discussion it has been said that a link to this page is preferrable to an article. I have included both Lostpedia and Lostlinks to include two very important gateways to the LOST fandom. -- GodEmperorOfHell 21:50, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
hey there, I was woundring, why shouldn't there be a LOST
Portal? I just created a
portal for
Saudi Arabia, it looks hard but Wikipedia really makes it easy! I think there should be one! tell me what you think--
muhaidib-- (
Talk |
#info |
)
03:34, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
My feeling is, as there is already a Lost Category, there's no real need for a "portal" as yet. Further, since there are some controveries about the organization of some articles, it would be jumping the gun to put up a portal.
You might instead want to consider helping to start up a Wikiproject, which have a similar purpose as a portal, but are aimed at organizing/improving content. Some examples are the Doctor Who and the Buffyverse Wikiprojects. There's been some discussion prior to starting up such an effort.-- Leflyman Talk 01:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
In a recent episode, I think it was this week, I saw Locke trying to recopy the the map on a piece of paper. The paper contained what appeared to be a poem in french. I coul have sworn I saw the word jeune (Young), and would appreciate a full (or better) copy of the poem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Camperdave ( talk • contribs)
Removed from the Story Elements section:
- Leflyman Talk 20:02, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
1) "Healing" is not a "story element". If anything, it's yet another of the many supposed "mysteries" of the Island, which are yet unexplained. What you might take as fact is an interpretation of the story. An alternative interpretation could hold that the characters were not actually "cured".
2) The section admits that the "healing" theory is a guess, saying "There is also some speculation..."
3)It includes additional speculation that Jack is a "miracle healer" and that his operation of Sarah "seemed impossible".-- Leflyman Talk 04:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
The interconnections section I added is not speculation. It contains nothing more than specific descriptions of scenes from the show. I have re-added the section. Before removing the section again, can the editor explain the logic of the removal, and how the section is speculative? Thanks -- Jake11 02:17, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Isn't the whole Sawyer and Jack's dad incident significant? It was in an episode that concluded with Jack being told by Sawyer that Jack's dad did respect Jack and appreciate what he had done. This is the culmination of a quite important development of Jack's character which was led up to in previous episodes, e.g. his guilt over what had happened to his dad. I think it's certainly worth mentioning the encounter, and there are other such "interconnections" that would fit right in with the mention.
I'm not at all convinced that such interconnections don't count as story elements. It certainly seems much more substantial than the whole bit about black and white, which I totally missed (black and white shirts?). Probably these other things like literary references fall under the category of story elements that "other elements provide a deeper understanding of the story"; however, I don't see why the interconnections section doesn't provide such a deeper understanding. It's certainly improved my understanding to realize that Libby was actually also in the same institution as Hurley, that Rose saw Locke in his wheelchair (this is also significant in the episode about Rose), that Anna-Lucia met Jack in the bar before the island, and that Shannon gets Sayid in trouble with airport security (thus making her later change and relationship with him have added meaning).
We should certainly edit the section and bring up its quality (rewording, for example, the statement about Sawyer's conversation with Jack's dad), but I see no grounds for totally removing it. Please don't delete it again without further discussion here. -- C S (Talk) 23:28, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Even though I highly disagree with this section, I migrated the content from the Characters page onto this one because it is less speculative and cites a source for original claims it makes. I would still like further discussion on this because this is in no way a stroy element. Jtrost ( T | C | #) 15:09, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
The site may be official, but it's still fancruft, by definition, and it's not notable for a separate Wikipedia article. Please see and discuss at the AfD entry at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oceanic flight 815 website. PKtm 15:27, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Background: an edit war has transpired on Danielle Rousseau (note that this is a different page from the one I just listed on AfD) since the end of March, when it was created as a full article, rather than just a redirect to the Characters of Lost page, which it had been since last November. One user was blocked on Friday ( WP:3RR) for repeatedly reverting the text to a full article rather than a redirect. Immediately upon his return, he created this new page, Danielle Rousseau (Lost), as a full article, similar to the old full article, but with some new text taken from Lostpedia. Please see and discuss at the AfD entry at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Danielle Rousseau (Lost). -- PKtm 04:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Who? Blade 22:10, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm renting from amazon and trying to avoid the 'how they made Lost' dvds. Amazon don't describe what is on each dvd
thanks, but the version amazon uk are sending me is this one [1] which has 8 discs (along with Season 1 - Part 2 has 4 discs). I know disc 4 (of season 1 part 1) is 'special features' because I got stung already. Do you know if any of the other discs in this version are 'special features'? thanks in advance
Everything seen is a fictional reality taking place in one or more of the survivors' minds — dismissed by Damon Lindelof [13]
Does the episode "Dave" not discount this? 138.162.5.8 18:38, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I would like everyone to be aware that there is a straw poll at Talk: List of Lost episodes to decide the fate of the Lost articles. Many of us work hard and regularly edit the Lost article. We all realize how difficult it is to maintain quality, non-speculative, grammatically correct articles. I hope everyone will realize how difficult it will be to maintain quality for the 100+ articles that will be created were we to make a new article for each episode. Please consider this carefully. Danflave 16:03, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I have some problems with the way that this section has been divided up: 1) How is "Familial Dysfunction" a thematic motif that has "no direct impact on the story itself." Familial dysfunction is an element of the story, not "literary or philosophical subtext" that is "unnecessary for the enjoyment of the series." 2) The numbers, although at some points they do have an impact on the story, are also "subtly embedded within scenes," making them as much a recurring motif as "Black and White" and "Eyes" are. 3) Couldn't any of the thematic elements be part of the mythology of the series? We really won't know the significance of any of these elements until the show is over.-- Silentword 16:24, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
An idea I had recently: does anyone think we should make an entire page dedicated to the phenomena we see on the show (for example, the Monster, the numbers, the polar bear, the healings, etc)? Similar to the character page, we could list all of the phenomena on that page, list what episodes they appear in (or at least the first episode it appeared in), then give a description of that phenomena, it's appearences, and list debunked theories and other bits of data that have been collected. I think this could save a lot of room onseveral other pages, as well as give a good reference for all those Lost fans out there that are trying to come up with their own theories.
I have attempted to standardize the punctuation on this page to conform with the American convention of putting commas and periods inside quotation marks. While I acknowledge that there are different acceptable ways to punctuate articles on Wikipedia, punctuation using the American convention should be strongly favored in this article. This show is produced by an American production company for an American TV network. The three creators are Americans. The composer is American. Most of the main characters are American. (However, many are not.) The series is filmed mostly in Hawaii. And, of course, the article begins, "Lost is an American drama-adventure television series..." These considerations weigh in favor of using the American convention. LegalSwoop 23:15, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
The crossovers section states that the first crossover was in "Outlaws". However, in "Hearts and Minds", when Boone is talking to the Australian police, Sawyer appears in the background, and even says something. Does this count as a crossover (since it wasn't at the airport)? If not, why not? -- Kahlfin 19:05, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
You're right, it is. Just changed it. Thanks for pointing this out.
There are currently two polls on The DHARMA Initiative page:
Please voice your opinions on these. Jtrost ( T | C | #) 12:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)