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Great article. The table could be expanded to show which tube lines serve which mainline stations, if this didn't cause width problems, and if someone felt like doing it. -- Tagishsimon (talk)
And is Thameslink the "Only one railway line passes directly through the central area without terminating." If so, could we add a link. -- Tagishsimon (talk)
The article says it includes all central London railway stations. Elephant and Castle railway station is located right on the central London ring road so why not include this? Simply south 17:04, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
What do the icons by the stations represent? I've never seen them used on the stations themselves, unless they're relatively new. -- Tivedshambo ( talk) 22:44, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure I like having an article here. Can we come up with an alternative name which isn't horribly complex? I was thinking Railway stations in Central London or perhaps London railway terminuses? Morwen - Talk 22:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the table should be put back into one. London Bridge and Blackfriars both have through and terminal platforms, it seems putting them in a "terminals" section is a bit misleading. MRSC • Talk 09:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
copied from User talk:MRSC: While I accept that Holborn Viaduct can legitimately be included on the London railway station list, I think it's taking it a bit far to include Bishopsgate and Minories, since they were replaced by existing stations, not to mention the fact that there is no living memory of either of them. Taking that view, I think then that there is a case for including both Holborn Viaduct and Broad Street on the template {{ Railway stations of London}}. Hammersfan 08/11/06, 12.35 GMT
Have there ever been plans to actually have one main London railway station? If so that information should be included into the article (at least in form of a link), otherwise it’s just as interesting why noone sees such a need. (Not that London was special therein among the largest European cities, for Paris and Moscow have no central station either, but Berlin now does.) Christoph Päper 23:17, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems to be confusing lots of people over whether there has been a central London station. As there are multiple and haven't really ever been just the one, it seems fitting to move this to a more appropriate title. Simply south 10:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
[unindent for reasons of sanity] So you suggest that this page should be renamed "Major railway stations of London" (or "...in London")? That will not address the issue of 'London' appearing on a railway ticket as the destination (as discussed above). You also have the problem of defining what is meant by 'major' in this context: "Major stations in London" must surely include Clapham Junction, Stratford, Oxford Circus, Heathrow...
Why does this article need to exist at all????
EdJogg 23:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
(Strike Oxford Circus as that is an Underground-only station and this is about overground stations) Simply south
(It was chosen deliberately to make a point about the possible change of name. Oxford Circus must be one of the busiest stations in London, hence 'major'? So, to be really clear you'd need to rename it "Major overground railway stations in London", which is fine until CrossRail is built... or "Major overground terminus railway stations in London". -- EdJogg 00:39, 23 September 2007 (UTC) -- PS can we stop whispering?)
I'd always thought this article was mainly a convenience for people unfamiliar with London, who wanted to know where "London railway station" was ... they'd be directed to a set of stations to choose from. Applying the same logic, I though I'd find out where the following directed me to:
So, the issue we're dealing with is larger than merely this article, I think. I'd opine that such pages should be thought of as disambiguation pages, providing a relatively simple table of links (and possibly a map) of the stations which have a competing claim to be XXX railway station. -- Tagishsimon (talk) 08:18, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that a unilateral deletion of this article helps. Better to work out what we are going to do with it. Pointing people at List of London railway stations is a far from clever substitute; how would that article assist a person looking for London railway station? -- Tagishsimon (talk) —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 06:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I have a considerable interest in this article, as I wrote all of the content within the Station groups article (including the section moved across into this article). The move seems sensible to me; I realise that the content is quite, er, "arcane" and specialised ( Tagishsimon's "starter for ten" comment was apt), but it's a difficult situation to explain. I may tweak some wording to provide a more logical link with the station groups article and to remove bits which are not directly relevant to London.
I saw a comment above about creating "a listing of all stations for which London is a valid destination, with notes as to what direction". Unfortunately this would not really be possible, as LONDON TERMINALS is, as per National Fares Manuals and ticket issuing systems, for pretty much every station in Britain (other than the "group stations" themselves). It would also look unwieldy and would be difficult to format, as many stations have several London group stations that are "legal". For example, tickets from my home station of Hassocks to LONDON TERMINALS are valid to CX, Waterloo E, London Bridge, Blackfriars, City TLK, Cannon Street, Vauxhall, Vic and Waterloo. Tickets from Stamford (Lincolnshire) would be valid to St Pancras via Leicester, Kings X or Moorgate via Stevenage, and Liverpool Street via Peterborough and Ely. Even something like Bath Spa, by virtue of being valid to Waterloo (via Reading and Ascot), would notionally be valid to Victoria as well (by changing at Clapham Junction) ... and I know from personal experience that the ticket gates at London Bridge and Charing Cross accept tickets from "South West Trains" stations to LONDON TERMINALS via Waterloo and Waterloo East - so in theory, you could travel from Bath Spa to CX, LB, Cannon St, BF or City T. Unfortunately there is no clear proof of this. This doesn't mean to say I wouldn't like to see such information recorded - in fact, I'd love it! - but it's probably the sort of thing that would be better published in the specialist press (such as the Transport Ticket Society Journal, which I write for).
If anybody has any questions about the ticketing and fare-setting side of things relating to the "London group", please leave me a note on my talk page. Hassocks5489 18:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I've tried to amend the reference list as per the usual Wikipedia style for quoting journal articles. Unfortunately, I don't know the name of the article in the Journal of the Transport Ticket Society (ref 1), and so the current reference starts ""{{{title}}}"". Does anyone have it so that the reference can be finalised? D-Notice ( talk) 14:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
There is no central London railway station called London Central, nor there ever was. However, there was a station in the past under the name of Central in the Docklands. See Central railway station (London). Simply south ( talk) 23:17, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed that the table of entry & exit figures says for 2002/3 Moorgate had "0.000832 million" people. Did it really only have 832 people using it? D-Notice ( talk) 14:53, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
I couldn't find any reason why the statistics source was retrieved in January this year, but the stats were still only up to 06/07 - all run up to 08/09 now. All stats are from the 08/09 document, with the exception of St Pancras 07/08 figures - the 07/08 file was used for this, as the merging of St Pancras and King's Cross Thameslink gave a number of 33 million in later documents (up from just under 6 million!)
This article, pointlessly stuffed with a gallery of pictures which should be each in its own station's article and not here, does list the group's stations but fails to explain the Group concept. It has a link to that's article which, separate from its list of groups, has "London Group" saying see this article, with a link.-- SilasW ( talk) 11:48, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
Why these stations on the zone1 are ignored? According to the article, it has to be because they are not rendered on tickets as "London Terminals." Or are they? It needs to be cleared. How about any other stations outside of zone1? First of all, what's the definition of "London Station Group"? -- WillaMissionary ( talk) 09:10, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
For resolve all the discussions above, we need to clear this. Is it about a station stated "LONDON TERMINALS" on the ticket? About a station having terminal platform? a station on zone1? Or does it mean a station for which trains are bound as the final stop/destination? For me, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, E&C, Farringdon, Hoxton, Old Street, Shoreditch High, Vauxall, and perhaps Waterloo East, these stations don't seem to be suitable for the word "Terminal." They're just ordinally intermediate ones. ( 119.243.201.165 ( talk) 11:03, 26 August 2011 (UTC))
Is there much point for this section, since the stations are listed again an inch further down the page in the station statistics section? Couldn't these sections be merged? MarkovianStumble ( talk) 10:42, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Since these stations were largely built as termini for various lines, might a column be added to the table for the railway company that originally built the station? MarkovianStumble ( talk) 10:47, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Please - in (all) North to South meassurement, awnsers one degree 40.000.000 meters (the length of the Equator) divided by 360 = 11 111 meters. A tenth degree equals 1 111.111 meters , a 1/100 degree = 111.11 meters and 1/1000 of a degree (N-S) = 11.11 meters. Even worse are the longitudes (or meridians). At the Equator , the east-weat difference for a degree is equally long, or 11 111 m. But at the 51st latitude have the differences between the longitudes become notably shorter (have a look at a Eath-globe). I don't go in to the math here, but 1/1000 of a longitude difference is perhaps 7 meters. Just the platforms might very well be 0.02 degrees long. A railway station cannot be located at such rather small spots, which the table suggests. It would be sufficient to meassure N<->S distances by multiples of 0.15 degrees and for the E<->W with multiples of 0.25 degrees. (But preferly still within the station area) Boeing720 ( talk) 02:18, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
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When I wrote the above, I introduced an inconsistency which I have fixed (hopefully) with this edit. I have removed the spurious reference to "South of the Thames", which was simply absent-mindedness by me (CX and Victoria are of course on the north side of the Thames); the reference to "Southern Region terminals" should suffice. (I know that Vauxhall isn't a terminal, but other terms such as "stations", "major stations" etc. are probably not suitable either). I have fixed a name error on the ref to the TTS Journal #565 and moved it to the correct place to support only what the reference states, and have introduced a separate reference to support the stations covered by "LONDON S.R.". Finally, to explain the apparent inconsistency between the creation of the wider "LONDON BR" designation in 1983 and the use of a 1984 reference to support "LONDON S.R.", I have added a hidden note to say that the two designations did indeed exist alongside each other for that year only. I'm almost certain that this is because ticket stock preprinted with "LONDON S.R." still had to be used up during 1984. Hassocks 5489 (Floreat Hova!) 18:34, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
To
London terminals, as this is the term of art that this covers. All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough
20:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC).
![]() | London station group is a featured list, which means it has been identified as one of the best lists produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||
![]() | London station group is the main article in the London station group series, a good topic. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured list on July 16, 2018. | |||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||
Current status: Featured list |
![]() | This article is rated FL-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Great article. The table could be expanded to show which tube lines serve which mainline stations, if this didn't cause width problems, and if someone felt like doing it. -- Tagishsimon (talk)
And is Thameslink the "Only one railway line passes directly through the central area without terminating." If so, could we add a link. -- Tagishsimon (talk)
The article says it includes all central London railway stations. Elephant and Castle railway station is located right on the central London ring road so why not include this? Simply south 17:04, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
What do the icons by the stations represent? I've never seen them used on the stations themselves, unless they're relatively new. -- Tivedshambo ( talk) 22:44, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure I like having an article here. Can we come up with an alternative name which isn't horribly complex? I was thinking Railway stations in Central London or perhaps London railway terminuses? Morwen - Talk 22:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the table should be put back into one. London Bridge and Blackfriars both have through and terminal platforms, it seems putting them in a "terminals" section is a bit misleading. MRSC • Talk 09:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
copied from User talk:MRSC: While I accept that Holborn Viaduct can legitimately be included on the London railway station list, I think it's taking it a bit far to include Bishopsgate and Minories, since they were replaced by existing stations, not to mention the fact that there is no living memory of either of them. Taking that view, I think then that there is a case for including both Holborn Viaduct and Broad Street on the template {{ Railway stations of London}}. Hammersfan 08/11/06, 12.35 GMT
Have there ever been plans to actually have one main London railway station? If so that information should be included into the article (at least in form of a link), otherwise it’s just as interesting why noone sees such a need. (Not that London was special therein among the largest European cities, for Paris and Moscow have no central station either, but Berlin now does.) Christoph Päper 23:17, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems to be confusing lots of people over whether there has been a central London station. As there are multiple and haven't really ever been just the one, it seems fitting to move this to a more appropriate title. Simply south 10:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
[unindent for reasons of sanity] So you suggest that this page should be renamed "Major railway stations of London" (or "...in London")? That will not address the issue of 'London' appearing on a railway ticket as the destination (as discussed above). You also have the problem of defining what is meant by 'major' in this context: "Major stations in London" must surely include Clapham Junction, Stratford, Oxford Circus, Heathrow...
Why does this article need to exist at all????
EdJogg 23:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
(Strike Oxford Circus as that is an Underground-only station and this is about overground stations) Simply south
(It was chosen deliberately to make a point about the possible change of name. Oxford Circus must be one of the busiest stations in London, hence 'major'? So, to be really clear you'd need to rename it "Major overground railway stations in London", which is fine until CrossRail is built... or "Major overground terminus railway stations in London". -- EdJogg 00:39, 23 September 2007 (UTC) -- PS can we stop whispering?)
I'd always thought this article was mainly a convenience for people unfamiliar with London, who wanted to know where "London railway station" was ... they'd be directed to a set of stations to choose from. Applying the same logic, I though I'd find out where the following directed me to:
So, the issue we're dealing with is larger than merely this article, I think. I'd opine that such pages should be thought of as disambiguation pages, providing a relatively simple table of links (and possibly a map) of the stations which have a competing claim to be XXX railway station. -- Tagishsimon (talk) 08:18, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that a unilateral deletion of this article helps. Better to work out what we are going to do with it. Pointing people at List of London railway stations is a far from clever substitute; how would that article assist a person looking for London railway station? -- Tagishsimon (talk) —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 06:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I have a considerable interest in this article, as I wrote all of the content within the Station groups article (including the section moved across into this article). The move seems sensible to me; I realise that the content is quite, er, "arcane" and specialised ( Tagishsimon's "starter for ten" comment was apt), but it's a difficult situation to explain. I may tweak some wording to provide a more logical link with the station groups article and to remove bits which are not directly relevant to London.
I saw a comment above about creating "a listing of all stations for which London is a valid destination, with notes as to what direction". Unfortunately this would not really be possible, as LONDON TERMINALS is, as per National Fares Manuals and ticket issuing systems, for pretty much every station in Britain (other than the "group stations" themselves). It would also look unwieldy and would be difficult to format, as many stations have several London group stations that are "legal". For example, tickets from my home station of Hassocks to LONDON TERMINALS are valid to CX, Waterloo E, London Bridge, Blackfriars, City TLK, Cannon Street, Vauxhall, Vic and Waterloo. Tickets from Stamford (Lincolnshire) would be valid to St Pancras via Leicester, Kings X or Moorgate via Stevenage, and Liverpool Street via Peterborough and Ely. Even something like Bath Spa, by virtue of being valid to Waterloo (via Reading and Ascot), would notionally be valid to Victoria as well (by changing at Clapham Junction) ... and I know from personal experience that the ticket gates at London Bridge and Charing Cross accept tickets from "South West Trains" stations to LONDON TERMINALS via Waterloo and Waterloo East - so in theory, you could travel from Bath Spa to CX, LB, Cannon St, BF or City T. Unfortunately there is no clear proof of this. This doesn't mean to say I wouldn't like to see such information recorded - in fact, I'd love it! - but it's probably the sort of thing that would be better published in the specialist press (such as the Transport Ticket Society Journal, which I write for).
If anybody has any questions about the ticketing and fare-setting side of things relating to the "London group", please leave me a note on my talk page. Hassocks5489 18:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I've tried to amend the reference list as per the usual Wikipedia style for quoting journal articles. Unfortunately, I don't know the name of the article in the Journal of the Transport Ticket Society (ref 1), and so the current reference starts ""{{{title}}}"". Does anyone have it so that the reference can be finalised? D-Notice ( talk) 14:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
There is no central London railway station called London Central, nor there ever was. However, there was a station in the past under the name of Central in the Docklands. See Central railway station (London). Simply south ( talk) 23:17, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed that the table of entry & exit figures says for 2002/3 Moorgate had "0.000832 million" people. Did it really only have 832 people using it? D-Notice ( talk) 14:53, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
I couldn't find any reason why the statistics source was retrieved in January this year, but the stats were still only up to 06/07 - all run up to 08/09 now. All stats are from the 08/09 document, with the exception of St Pancras 07/08 figures - the 07/08 file was used for this, as the merging of St Pancras and King's Cross Thameslink gave a number of 33 million in later documents (up from just under 6 million!)
This article, pointlessly stuffed with a gallery of pictures which should be each in its own station's article and not here, does list the group's stations but fails to explain the Group concept. It has a link to that's article which, separate from its list of groups, has "London Group" saying see this article, with a link.-- SilasW ( talk) 11:48, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
Why these stations on the zone1 are ignored? According to the article, it has to be because they are not rendered on tickets as "London Terminals." Or are they? It needs to be cleared. How about any other stations outside of zone1? First of all, what's the definition of "London Station Group"? -- WillaMissionary ( talk) 09:10, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
For resolve all the discussions above, we need to clear this. Is it about a station stated "LONDON TERMINALS" on the ticket? About a station having terminal platform? a station on zone1? Or does it mean a station for which trains are bound as the final stop/destination? For me, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, E&C, Farringdon, Hoxton, Old Street, Shoreditch High, Vauxall, and perhaps Waterloo East, these stations don't seem to be suitable for the word "Terminal." They're just ordinally intermediate ones. ( 119.243.201.165 ( talk) 11:03, 26 August 2011 (UTC))
Is there much point for this section, since the stations are listed again an inch further down the page in the station statistics section? Couldn't these sections be merged? MarkovianStumble ( talk) 10:42, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Since these stations were largely built as termini for various lines, might a column be added to the table for the railway company that originally built the station? MarkovianStumble ( talk) 10:47, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Please - in (all) North to South meassurement, awnsers one degree 40.000.000 meters (the length of the Equator) divided by 360 = 11 111 meters. A tenth degree equals 1 111.111 meters , a 1/100 degree = 111.11 meters and 1/1000 of a degree (N-S) = 11.11 meters. Even worse are the longitudes (or meridians). At the Equator , the east-weat difference for a degree is equally long, or 11 111 m. But at the 51st latitude have the differences between the longitudes become notably shorter (have a look at a Eath-globe). I don't go in to the math here, but 1/1000 of a longitude difference is perhaps 7 meters. Just the platforms might very well be 0.02 degrees long. A railway station cannot be located at such rather small spots, which the table suggests. It would be sufficient to meassure N<->S distances by multiples of 0.15 degrees and for the E<->W with multiples of 0.25 degrees. (But preferly still within the station area) Boeing720 ( talk) 02:18, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
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When I wrote the above, I introduced an inconsistency which I have fixed (hopefully) with this edit. I have removed the spurious reference to "South of the Thames", which was simply absent-mindedness by me (CX and Victoria are of course on the north side of the Thames); the reference to "Southern Region terminals" should suffice. (I know that Vauxhall isn't a terminal, but other terms such as "stations", "major stations" etc. are probably not suitable either). I have fixed a name error on the ref to the TTS Journal #565 and moved it to the correct place to support only what the reference states, and have introduced a separate reference to support the stations covered by "LONDON S.R.". Finally, to explain the apparent inconsistency between the creation of the wider "LONDON BR" designation in 1983 and the use of a 1984 reference to support "LONDON S.R.", I have added a hidden note to say that the two designations did indeed exist alongside each other for that year only. I'm almost certain that this is because ticket stock preprinted with "LONDON S.R." still had to be used up during 1984. Hassocks 5489 (Floreat Hova!) 18:34, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
To
London terminals, as this is the term of art that this covers. All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough
20:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC).