![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Moved from "Lombard language" as the article stated itself that Lombard is a set of interrelated dialects, not a single language. -- Orzetto 10:50, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, a lexeme is "a meaningful linguistic unit that is an item in the vocabulary of a language" (
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=lexeme) --
Jorgengb 00:42, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Reverting to previous version.
1. Lombard may be spoken in Sicily, as well as iy may be spoken in Australia, in the US, etc. Nevertheless, the core area of Lombardy is Ticino, the Grisons and (Italian) Lombardy.
2. I may be usefl to group Lombard varieties into Eastern and Western, but it would be misleading to regard Eastern and Western Lombard as varieties with several dialects.--
Jorgengb 22:39, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Certainly Lombard was spoken in Sicily before the United States and Australia were countries. I'm not sure if you're implying that Lombard is foreign to Sicily, because they weren't the original inhabitants. The Lombard people settled into certain parts of Sicily (the 11th century) just as the many other groups. They may be relatively newer to the island, but it doesn't make them more foreign. Lombard may only have been spoken in the U.S. or Australia for no more than 150 years, hence such a comparison to Sicily cannot be made. -- VingenzoTM 13:17, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In addition, the original "western Lombard" variety spoken in the Sicilian communities has evolved so much over time, that one can make a legitimate claim that several separate "dialects" or "sub-dialects" of western Lombard Sicilian exist throughout the five different provinces it occupies. Visit the following webpage to see the three different "forms" (dialects, subdialects) of western Lombard Sicilian. It can be postulated that even more forms exist as languages have always evolved, divergently, rapidly and dissimilarly in Sicily, as a result of the terrain. As a native Sicilian speaker, I can assure you that I can barely understand a quarter of the material in either of the three different Sicilian forms found on that website. Again, there are probably even more than three different "forms" (dialects, subdialects) of Lombard in Sicily, especially since they are spread out across five different provinces. I also would like to share with you an amusing little tidbit that I observed over the years during interaction and storytelling with my grandparents and other older relatives. For those Sicilians alive from the time before Italian unification (1861) up to just forty years ago (and possibly even today for the elderly), Sicilians have always considered those people from a different town or province than their own as foreigners. This is quite astonishing, but it was done because even someone from two miles away, while still speaking a similar dialect of Sicilian, had a noticeably different accent. In some cities, the accent can changed dramatically just from street to street (example, Agrigento/Girgenti). Therefore, to conclude that there cannot be many different forms, or "dialects" or "subdialects" of western Lombard in Sicily would be absurd, especially due to the fact that there was plenty of time for corruption, evolution, and dialectization to occurr in the last ten centuries since the Lombards entered Sicily. link showing three of the possibly many subdialects of western Lombard in Sicily -- VingenzoTM 13:37, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I suggest the proposed project to include other Gallo-Italic varieties. Sarcelles 28 June 2005 16:56 (UTC)
It really is a shame that smaller Switzerland recognizes Lombard, yet Italy, where it came from, doesn't, or perhaps doesn't want, to recognize Lombard. I should suggest to all Lombard speakers in Italy should try to use only Lombard. Besides, I thought that the north of Italy was supposed to be the wealthier part, so that would mean that whatever would be spoke, that it would be no problem and that it would not discriminate whoever speaks whatever? I believe that the region of Lombardy should become a part of Switzerland if this commences! Il Studioso 06:57, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I thought this was a no-brainer, but it seems some people have strange ideas around here... The "lombard language" does not exist. You can talk about a "Lombard family" of dialects (or languages if you prefer, this is not the issue). The "lombard language" is just as absurd as "the romance language", "the scandinavian language", "the iberian language", "the slavic language". It's a plain nonsense, and the article has a very misleading title. If some "modern linguists" came up with some weird definitions of language where a language may not even be mutually intelligible with itself, kudos, but readers expect an explicative title.
I mean, the article itself states that it is "a group of related dialects" and even that "Sometimes the word "Lombard" is used referring to an actually not yet existent common language." (yet??)
I also noticed that some of the notes I put about the historical reasons of the reduced use of dialects has been cut out. Will see what can be recovered. Anyway, my point is the absurdity of the singular number. -- Orzetto 03:27, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I changed quite a few things. Please keep comments in their subsections and sign each one, so it is easier to keep track. -- Orzetto 23:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
9,133,855 is outrageously off the mark. It is more than the population of Lombardy. Since most people under 40 do not speak dialect at all because they grew up with Italian, since there are consistent numbers of both extra-european and southern-Italian immigrants ( Milan is Italy's third Apulian city after Bari and Brindisi, to give an idea—then we have to count Sicilians, Campanians, and all the mixed marriages where dialect cannot be used for intercommunication... you get the picture). I put N/A until a more reasonable estimate can be found. Please notice we are talking about speakers, not people who merely understand it, or know just one sentence or two. -- Orzetto 23:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I removed it since there is a disambiguation link pointing to Lombardic language (which is not related). -- Orzetto 23:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I tried to avoid using "language" or "dialect" altogether, so we avoid at least this one controversy. -- Orzetto 23:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Now the arguments are presented as Introduction-Features-Varieties-Usage-Links. I added something on the historical-political reasons of usage in Italy, which I feel must be explained. -- Orzetto 23:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Lombard language v Lombard dialects page move request ( WP:RM#9_January_2006) - if the issue isn't settled, can people vote here please? Rd232 talk 13:15, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I'll close this as no consensus, most obviously. — Nightstallion (?) 08:08, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Lombard language → Lombard dialects – No such thing as a lombard language (as all parties recognised), there is rather a family of dialects (or languages if you prefer). Common usage is "dialects".
The above move request is now invalid because:
Although I'm not an admin, I am being bold and declaring it closed. If a move is still desired, a new proposal should be listed with the current discussion at the bottom of this page and at WP:RM following normal procedure. — AjaxSmack 20:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Last time I proposed the move it was closed for lack of consensus, but those who previously moved to "Lombard language" in fact did not intervene (their discussion is quite old). I find it clear that there is no such thing as one Lombard language, just like there is no Indoeuropean or no Iberian. It's a family of various dialects, not even all mutually intelligible. -- Orzetto 23:44, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm relucting to move this, since it seems that the vote would correct a factual inaccuracy, from what Gareth has said... — Nightst a llion (?) 10:40, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move. — Nightst a llion (?) 11:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Lombard language → Lombard (linguistics) – per Gareth Hughes' comments above. See Cantonese (linguistics) or Mandarin (linguistics) which refer to "linguistic entities" that are sometimes considered dialects and consist of dialects themselves. Adapted from the entry on the WP:RM page
I really still can't understand this request. For consistency we should then move (just some examples) Sardinian language, Sicilian language, Langue d'Oc etc etc. because "it is clear that there is not one sardinian or sicilian or occitan language"". This is absurd. The fact that a language has a standard dialect is irrelevant. Again, if "A dialect is a variety of a language used by people from a particular geographic area" then these lombard dialects are varieties of WHAT language? Someone please tell me...
Lorenzino
20:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Could someone start wikipedia in Lombard? Myrtone (the strict Australian wikipedian) (talk):-)
I find it extraordinary that some authors have been so dismissive of the siculo-gallic dialects that have as their origin the large scale immigration of mostly Lombards to Sicily between 1090 and 1120 after the Norman conquest of Sicily. These dialects are spoken to this day in Piazza Armerina, Sperlinga and Aidone amongst others (but in ever decreasing numbers). After 900 years they are more a mixture of Sicilian and Lombard dialects. I would have thought that they at least rate a mention in this article (but definitely deserve a serious article of their own). This is a quote from the article on Sicily: "There are also several areas where dialects of the Lombard language of the Gallo-Italic family are spoken. Much of this population is also tri-lingual, being able to also speak one of the Sicilian dialects as well." ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 12:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I see some political sentiments creeping into this article which, if not POV, represent either OR or something certainly difficult to verify (I refer to the last few edits). I have already given my thoughts on this article above, and do not wish to get involved. I will say this though, apart from the political undercurrents of this article, the following are fictitious words: "distantiate" and "fictive". Find some real words, or better still, rewrite the whole thing to make it an article actually broaching linguistic themes. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 12:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Which country should be mentioned first, Switzerland or Italy?
Therefore I think Switzerland should be mentioned first. -- 80.202.30.190 18:10, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I forgot logging in: -- 10caart 17:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Once it has been made clear at the beginning that "The term Lombard refers to a group of related varieties" and not to a single, standardised variety, there is no need to repeat "Lombard varieties" or "dialects" or "idioms" every time throughout the whole article. "Lombard" is just a shorthand form for "Lombard varieties".-- 80.202.30.190 18:47, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that many of the users who have debated the "language issue" in this discussion page are not very up-to-date when it comes to modern linguistic thory and to the meaning of the word 'language'. Cfr. Ausbausprache, etc.. There is no doubt that Italian and French are Ausbau languages. Lombard as per today is not an Ausbau language, but nevertheless it is an Abstand language on the ground of its structural distance (in German: Abstand) from, say, Italian and French:
"A language may be an abstand language without being an ausbau language. This is often the case with minority languages used within a larger nation state, where the minority language is used only in private and all official functions are performed in the majority language." ( Ausbausprache, etc.).
We can therefore say that Lombard as per today is not an Ausbau language; that Lombard is an Abstand language; that Lombard as per today has no own Dachsprache or 'umbrella language' (the so-called 'koiné ticinese' might actually be a good candidate for Swiss Lombard varieties or even for all Western Lombard varieties). Finally:
Kloss has also used the term pseudo-dialectized abstand language for cases where a variety is so different from its Dachsprache that it ought to be regarded as a separate language on abstand grounds, but is nevertheless treated more like a dialect in social practice. Examples include Sardinian vis-a-vis Italian, or Occitan vis-a-vis French. ( Ausbausprache, etc.).
This is also the case of Lombard vis-a-vis Italian as a Dachsprache.
Please notice that in the Wiki about Ausbausprache, etc. the term 'language' is used in all cases, making no assumption as to whether there is a codified standard or not.
If an authoritative linguist like Kloss, together with many others, uses the word 'Sprache'/'language' without implying standardisation, I can't see any reason (other than Italian cultural imperialism...) why we shouldn't safely switch the "Lombard (linguistics)" wiki back to "Lombard language". -- Jorgengb 18:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Btw:
For the UNESCO Red Book, Lombard is a 'potentially endangered' language; see [2].
For Ethnologue, Lombard is one of the 'languages of Switzerland' [3] and one of the 'languages of Italy' [4]
As per today 20th November 2006, the Lombard Wikipedia [5] with its 3,014 articles ranks as the 89th of 250 (ranking for Armenian: 91; Friulian: 106; Cantonese: 107; Quechua: 131; Romansh: 143; Classical Chinese: 159; Sardinian: 160). The Lombard Wikipedia shows the main page alternatively in Western and Eastern Lombard (odd and even days, or the other way round). -- Jorgengb 18:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
The above opinions should be formulated into a formal move request at WP:RM to gain wider input. — AjaxSmack 20:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move.-- Flavi 10:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Lombard_(linguistics) → Lombard language — For the UNESCO Red Book, Lombard is a 'potentially endangered' language; for Ethnologue, Lombard is one of the languages of Switzerland and one of the languages of Italy. Flavi 11:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
"A language may be an abstand language without being an ausbau language. This is often the case with minority languages used within a larger nation state, where the minority language is used only in private and all official functions are performed in the majority language." ( Ausbausprache, etc.).-- Jorgengb 17:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
"There are no universally accepted criteria for distinguishing languages from dialects, although a number of paradigms exist, which render sometimes contradictory results. The exact distinction is therefore a subjective one, dependent on the user's frame of reference." -- Ptcamn 18:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
And now it looks like User:Clamengh has gone ahead and moved it before the consensus is in. The box says "after a few days", not "after a few hours". -- Ptcamn 17:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Even if Lombard is a "language", the title should be Lombard (language), not Lombard language, unless Lombard language happens to be the most common way it is referred to. It seems to me that the title debate should be about whether the name should be Lombard (linguistics), Lombard (language), or Lombard (dialect), but Lombard language should not even be one of the options. -- Serge 21:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Are there any other instances of language-related articles in the en.wikipedia with titles like X (language) ? Btw., Lombard language happens to be the most common way to refer to Lombard in the scientific community aware of its existence (cf. authors mentioned above) -- Jorgengb 14:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Per WP:BOLD, and the fact that the debate here seems to be more about whether Lombard is a "language" or not, I moved Lombard language to Lombard (language). You can argue and decide by consensus whether language or something else should be the disambiguator in the parenthetic remark, but, whatever you decide, please do not make the disambiguator be part of the name of the subject in the title - leave it in parenthesis. Thanks. See WP:NAME and WP:DAB. -- Serge 21:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I did not realize (until now), that it is a Wikipedia convention to use the language suffix in the title without parenthesis. That doesn't seem right to me. I've started a discussion about this over at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (languages). -- Serge 22:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Sirs, many thanks to everybody for taking part in this passionating discussion. As a matter of fact, 'Lombard language' (or tongue) is the standard term used by scholars to designate this language. So this is the right place for this article, as Bkonrad correctly poointed out. As someone else noted, a Google search for 'Lombard language' returns more than 1.000.000 results: I think this settles the question. I think that politicised views should be left far from this encyclopedia, as WP:NOT requires. Reality is simple: no doubt that Lombard is a dying language, so everyone is kindly asked not to shot at the red cross. Thank you. Here are some references:
Many other ones available upon request. All in all, please, be so kind to get yourselves documented upon verifiable sources. From now on I will be speaking as a spokesman of Lombard community: we are firm in defending our language, and this place for this article. Thank you. -- Clamengh 17:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following statement.
No Lombard variety is mutually intelligible with Italian. The Lombard speaking population of Switzerland have long been indentifying as the "Italian speaking community", which stands in stark contrast with the closely related Romansh language, which is never thought of as an Italian dialect.
In my opinion the comparison does not stand: Romansh was never considered an Italian dialect because it isn't one. In the Italian speaking part of Switzerland (as in Italy) the spoken language is Italian (and in addition Lombard). In the Romansh speaking regions Italian is not spoken. Romansh is the sole language. Matteo 14:12, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
It's up to en.wiki to decide what the community pleases on this issue. Anyway, I wish you all to note that the WMF at large uses ISO 639-3 as a source for language denomination, and not anything else. No matter what happens here NO request based on codes external to ISO 639-3 will be accepted, according to the current policy. We are no Language Darwin, we don't create names, and much of what is happening here is largely in the bounds of Original Research. Everyone is welcome to document local academic positions that step out of mainstream international classification, but acting as a source at personal level is off limits. I feel this much is due. -- Bèrto 'd Sèra 11:26, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
FYI, please see:
-- A. B. (talk) 15:40, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The statement "The term Lombard refers to a group of related varieties" is confusing, as it implies that "being made up of related varieties" is a peculiar carachteristic of Lombard, whilst it is true of any known human language (though it's true of some artificial languages too, eg LISP). I've now edited this, hoping that we can discuss the varieties in the "varieties" section, as is done for other languages. Also, the statement that "The union of Western Lombard or Insubric, Eastern Lombard and intermediate varieties under the denomination of "Lombard" is simply conventional and not based on linguistic analysis" is utterly wrong, as the two differ mostly in their word-level phonology (Easter Lombard shows s- spirantisation and fricative elision in context where western Lombard doesn't) but they are clearly to be brought together when it comes to their syntactic structure, as well as their wider-level phonology (as discussed by, for example, Biondelli [ [8]]). -- Dakrismeno ( talk) 12:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
The site www.alperiodic.net links to an online periodical in Lombard, for those who wish to see what the language looks and sounds like. Why was it deleted?? -- Dakrismeno ( talk) 11:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
A "Familiy Language" title has been added to the introductory section in the last edit. 1) I have no idea what that term would mean 2) I thought it was customary to have untitled introductory sections to the topic
I didn't want to just revert it without saying anything, but I'll revert it shortly.
LjL ( talk) 17:12, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
In the Language infobox, the subdivision Gallo-Italian appears where other languages have Gallo-Iberian (between Western and Gallo-Romance). I don't know if this is a mistake or a reflection of some taxonomy war, but it's certainly confusing. Gallo-Italian redirects to Northern Italian languages, where the infobox says they are a subdivision of Gallo-Romance.-- 87.162.47.230 ( talk) 18:02, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't think this statement was POV. As also reported in the info-box, the gallo-italic language(s) belong to a separate Romance subfamily compared to Italian, and therefore are by definition separate from Italian (though disputable whether they form one or several separate languages, but this is a separate issue). As it is logically impossible for two given languages to (1) belong to a separate subfamily AND (2) be dialects of each other, the statement was entirely coherent with Romance categorization, and thus not POV. I thus proceed to change it back. -- Dakrismeno ( talk) 10:49, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
As also reported in the info-box, the gallo-italic language(s) belong to a separate Romance subfamily compared to Italian, and therefore are by definition separate from Italian (though disputable whether they form one or several separate languages, but this is a separate issue). As it is logically impossible for two given languages to (1) belong to a separate subfamily AND (2) be dialects of each other, the statement was entirely coherent with Romance categorization, and thus not "dubious". I thus proceed to change it back. -- Dakrismeno ( talk) 14:15, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Hello All,
I've used wikipedia for some time, like most college students, but am rather new to the whole writing side. Naytheless, I have something I'd like to ask that applies to a few articles I've read. If this has already been addressed, forgive me, but I must question the need to give a citation for a line akin to "though a very small minority may be uncomfortable speaking it". If someone points out a maybe rather than saying "a small minority is uncomfortable speaking Lombard", I see no need for a quote. The sentence might be in need of better wording, but a pointing out a maybe is just that, and demanding a citation of such lines seems nitpicky, and a want of a citation wouldn't take any weight from the passage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chakrar16 ( talk • contribs) 15:27, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
In the specialised literature I could not find one reference using overtly the label "Lombard language" (apart from it being or not a language, who cares). Its use here is clearly NNPOV. Check the following:
In Italian, the term "language" (again, without considering the nature of the object in question, just the label) is usually used in administrative orders but there is no source stating that that is the most common usage (see also WP:RELY). It is used in other sources, generally of non-linguistic or non-academic/other nature (see [9]). Both "lombard dialect" and "lombard language" should appear in the article, as per NPOV. -- SynConlanger ( talk) 09:59, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
I removed again this confusing statement, which is suboptimal and unencyclopedic in several ways:
In other words, that paragraph is flawed in just about every possible way. if Theblogger01 or others intend to restore it once more after it was removed by someone else before me, I urge to fix all of the aforementioned issues before doing so.
In addition, the edit summary with which it was reinstated is misguided, since Lombard is clearly not "a dialect of Italian" and it is of course not "based on Italian grammar". It is a regional language of Italy descended from Latin independently of Italian, as any linguistic tree would and does show (check the article and its sources before making WP:BOLD edits, thanks). LjL ( talk) 22:51, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
You are correct in that there was confusion in stating that Lombard is a dialect of Italian which is not the case. However, you are incorrect in a few of your comments:
I am happy to amend the statement. Some of your rebuttals are subjective and non-academic. Before we go through another tit for tat on my statement let's see what you actually agree or disagree with. Thank you.
Theblogger01 ( talk) 2:02, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Lombard language. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:25, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Hello! My name is Mary and I am a linguistics student currently taking a phonetics course. We were given an assignment involving inputting the phonological features of a language on a Wikipedia page, where it didn't already exist. As you can see by the new section, I found a published document detailing the different consonants and vowels and I filled out the charts accordingly. I am happy to be able to take part in growing and sharing this wonderful language. Thank you Marehubbs ( talk) 10:59, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
The phonology section seems a little bit disorganized to me, especially the consonant chart. It could definitely be organized more like the standard IPA chart. In addition, it doesn’t distinguish which consonants and vowels belong to which dialects, and which ones are allophones versus distinct phonemes. I think these distinctions are greatly needed, or else readers don’t know which sounds occur in which varieties. At some point I may attempt this myself, but I am a very new contributor and I’m sure everyone would agree that a more experienced and knowledgeable editor would be preferred. MichaelAmpe101 ( talk) 14:42, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
@ Marehubbs and MichaelAmpe101: fixed it. :) 〜 イヴァンスクルージ九十八[IvanScrooge98]( 会話) 15:27, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Hi, I'm Gat lombart, I'm from Lombardy and I'm starting a wiktionary in Lombard language. I point out that in the wiktionary there are some appendices that explain Lombard grammar, but just written in Lombard. They are collected in the category incubator:Category: Wt/lmo/Gramatega_lombarda. The most important one is the one that explains the sentence constructions: incubator:Wt/lmo/Appendix:Costruzzion_de_la_fras_in_lombard. Moreover I point out that a new ortography, the New Lombard Ortography, has been gaining ground for about two years on wiki projects in Lombard. Lombard wiktionary is written by using this ortography.
As I am already busy with the wiktionary I will not have time to help you directly, in the translation of the pages, but I will be able to help you to translate some word through the wiktionary itself. You can ask me for the translation of some words by writing it on this page. I hope you can help me to build wiktionary too, since the wiktionary needs users to start. It would also be nice if anyone of you were interested in learning the Lombard language.
If someone wants to add English translations of Lombard words they can do so by writing *ingles: word traslation into english under the model {{Wt/lmo/-trad-}} like in this example: incubator:Wt/lmo/aneda -- Gat lombart ( talk) 07:57, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Moved from "Lombard language" as the article stated itself that Lombard is a set of interrelated dialects, not a single language. -- Orzetto 10:50, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, a lexeme is "a meaningful linguistic unit that is an item in the vocabulary of a language" (
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=lexeme) --
Jorgengb 00:42, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Reverting to previous version.
1. Lombard may be spoken in Sicily, as well as iy may be spoken in Australia, in the US, etc. Nevertheless, the core area of Lombardy is Ticino, the Grisons and (Italian) Lombardy.
2. I may be usefl to group Lombard varieties into Eastern and Western, but it would be misleading to regard Eastern and Western Lombard as varieties with several dialects.--
Jorgengb 22:39, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Certainly Lombard was spoken in Sicily before the United States and Australia were countries. I'm not sure if you're implying that Lombard is foreign to Sicily, because they weren't the original inhabitants. The Lombard people settled into certain parts of Sicily (the 11th century) just as the many other groups. They may be relatively newer to the island, but it doesn't make them more foreign. Lombard may only have been spoken in the U.S. or Australia for no more than 150 years, hence such a comparison to Sicily cannot be made. -- VingenzoTM 13:17, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In addition, the original "western Lombard" variety spoken in the Sicilian communities has evolved so much over time, that one can make a legitimate claim that several separate "dialects" or "sub-dialects" of western Lombard Sicilian exist throughout the five different provinces it occupies. Visit the following webpage to see the three different "forms" (dialects, subdialects) of western Lombard Sicilian. It can be postulated that even more forms exist as languages have always evolved, divergently, rapidly and dissimilarly in Sicily, as a result of the terrain. As a native Sicilian speaker, I can assure you that I can barely understand a quarter of the material in either of the three different Sicilian forms found on that website. Again, there are probably even more than three different "forms" (dialects, subdialects) of Lombard in Sicily, especially since they are spread out across five different provinces. I also would like to share with you an amusing little tidbit that I observed over the years during interaction and storytelling with my grandparents and other older relatives. For those Sicilians alive from the time before Italian unification (1861) up to just forty years ago (and possibly even today for the elderly), Sicilians have always considered those people from a different town or province than their own as foreigners. This is quite astonishing, but it was done because even someone from two miles away, while still speaking a similar dialect of Sicilian, had a noticeably different accent. In some cities, the accent can changed dramatically just from street to street (example, Agrigento/Girgenti). Therefore, to conclude that there cannot be many different forms, or "dialects" or "subdialects" of western Lombard in Sicily would be absurd, especially due to the fact that there was plenty of time for corruption, evolution, and dialectization to occurr in the last ten centuries since the Lombards entered Sicily. link showing three of the possibly many subdialects of western Lombard in Sicily -- VingenzoTM 13:37, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I suggest the proposed project to include other Gallo-Italic varieties. Sarcelles 28 June 2005 16:56 (UTC)
It really is a shame that smaller Switzerland recognizes Lombard, yet Italy, where it came from, doesn't, or perhaps doesn't want, to recognize Lombard. I should suggest to all Lombard speakers in Italy should try to use only Lombard. Besides, I thought that the north of Italy was supposed to be the wealthier part, so that would mean that whatever would be spoke, that it would be no problem and that it would not discriminate whoever speaks whatever? I believe that the region of Lombardy should become a part of Switzerland if this commences! Il Studioso 06:57, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I thought this was a no-brainer, but it seems some people have strange ideas around here... The "lombard language" does not exist. You can talk about a "Lombard family" of dialects (or languages if you prefer, this is not the issue). The "lombard language" is just as absurd as "the romance language", "the scandinavian language", "the iberian language", "the slavic language". It's a plain nonsense, and the article has a very misleading title. If some "modern linguists" came up with some weird definitions of language where a language may not even be mutually intelligible with itself, kudos, but readers expect an explicative title.
I mean, the article itself states that it is "a group of related dialects" and even that "Sometimes the word "Lombard" is used referring to an actually not yet existent common language." (yet??)
I also noticed that some of the notes I put about the historical reasons of the reduced use of dialects has been cut out. Will see what can be recovered. Anyway, my point is the absurdity of the singular number. -- Orzetto 03:27, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I changed quite a few things. Please keep comments in their subsections and sign each one, so it is easier to keep track. -- Orzetto 23:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
9,133,855 is outrageously off the mark. It is more than the population of Lombardy. Since most people under 40 do not speak dialect at all because they grew up with Italian, since there are consistent numbers of both extra-european and southern-Italian immigrants ( Milan is Italy's third Apulian city after Bari and Brindisi, to give an idea—then we have to count Sicilians, Campanians, and all the mixed marriages where dialect cannot be used for intercommunication... you get the picture). I put N/A until a more reasonable estimate can be found. Please notice we are talking about speakers, not people who merely understand it, or know just one sentence or two. -- Orzetto 23:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I removed it since there is a disambiguation link pointing to Lombardic language (which is not related). -- Orzetto 23:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I tried to avoid using "language" or "dialect" altogether, so we avoid at least this one controversy. -- Orzetto 23:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Now the arguments are presented as Introduction-Features-Varieties-Usage-Links. I added something on the historical-political reasons of usage in Italy, which I feel must be explained. -- Orzetto 23:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Lombard language v Lombard dialects page move request ( WP:RM#9_January_2006) - if the issue isn't settled, can people vote here please? Rd232 talk 13:15, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I'll close this as no consensus, most obviously. — Nightstallion (?) 08:08, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Lombard language → Lombard dialects – No such thing as a lombard language (as all parties recognised), there is rather a family of dialects (or languages if you prefer). Common usage is "dialects".
The above move request is now invalid because:
Although I'm not an admin, I am being bold and declaring it closed. If a move is still desired, a new proposal should be listed with the current discussion at the bottom of this page and at WP:RM following normal procedure. — AjaxSmack 20:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Last time I proposed the move it was closed for lack of consensus, but those who previously moved to "Lombard language" in fact did not intervene (their discussion is quite old). I find it clear that there is no such thing as one Lombard language, just like there is no Indoeuropean or no Iberian. It's a family of various dialects, not even all mutually intelligible. -- Orzetto 23:44, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm relucting to move this, since it seems that the vote would correct a factual inaccuracy, from what Gareth has said... — Nightst a llion (?) 10:40, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move. — Nightst a llion (?) 11:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Lombard language → Lombard (linguistics) – per Gareth Hughes' comments above. See Cantonese (linguistics) or Mandarin (linguistics) which refer to "linguistic entities" that are sometimes considered dialects and consist of dialects themselves. Adapted from the entry on the WP:RM page
I really still can't understand this request. For consistency we should then move (just some examples) Sardinian language, Sicilian language, Langue d'Oc etc etc. because "it is clear that there is not one sardinian or sicilian or occitan language"". This is absurd. The fact that a language has a standard dialect is irrelevant. Again, if "A dialect is a variety of a language used by people from a particular geographic area" then these lombard dialects are varieties of WHAT language? Someone please tell me...
Lorenzino
20:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Could someone start wikipedia in Lombard? Myrtone (the strict Australian wikipedian) (talk):-)
I find it extraordinary that some authors have been so dismissive of the siculo-gallic dialects that have as their origin the large scale immigration of mostly Lombards to Sicily between 1090 and 1120 after the Norman conquest of Sicily. These dialects are spoken to this day in Piazza Armerina, Sperlinga and Aidone amongst others (but in ever decreasing numbers). After 900 years they are more a mixture of Sicilian and Lombard dialects. I would have thought that they at least rate a mention in this article (but definitely deserve a serious article of their own). This is a quote from the article on Sicily: "There are also several areas where dialects of the Lombard language of the Gallo-Italic family are spoken. Much of this population is also tri-lingual, being able to also speak one of the Sicilian dialects as well." ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 12:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I see some political sentiments creeping into this article which, if not POV, represent either OR or something certainly difficult to verify (I refer to the last few edits). I have already given my thoughts on this article above, and do not wish to get involved. I will say this though, apart from the political undercurrents of this article, the following are fictitious words: "distantiate" and "fictive". Find some real words, or better still, rewrite the whole thing to make it an article actually broaching linguistic themes. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 12:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Which country should be mentioned first, Switzerland or Italy?
Therefore I think Switzerland should be mentioned first. -- 80.202.30.190 18:10, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I forgot logging in: -- 10caart 17:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Once it has been made clear at the beginning that "The term Lombard refers to a group of related varieties" and not to a single, standardised variety, there is no need to repeat "Lombard varieties" or "dialects" or "idioms" every time throughout the whole article. "Lombard" is just a shorthand form for "Lombard varieties".-- 80.202.30.190 18:47, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that many of the users who have debated the "language issue" in this discussion page are not very up-to-date when it comes to modern linguistic thory and to the meaning of the word 'language'. Cfr. Ausbausprache, etc.. There is no doubt that Italian and French are Ausbau languages. Lombard as per today is not an Ausbau language, but nevertheless it is an Abstand language on the ground of its structural distance (in German: Abstand) from, say, Italian and French:
"A language may be an abstand language without being an ausbau language. This is often the case with minority languages used within a larger nation state, where the minority language is used only in private and all official functions are performed in the majority language." ( Ausbausprache, etc.).
We can therefore say that Lombard as per today is not an Ausbau language; that Lombard is an Abstand language; that Lombard as per today has no own Dachsprache or 'umbrella language' (the so-called 'koiné ticinese' might actually be a good candidate for Swiss Lombard varieties or even for all Western Lombard varieties). Finally:
Kloss has also used the term pseudo-dialectized abstand language for cases where a variety is so different from its Dachsprache that it ought to be regarded as a separate language on abstand grounds, but is nevertheless treated more like a dialect in social practice. Examples include Sardinian vis-a-vis Italian, or Occitan vis-a-vis French. ( Ausbausprache, etc.).
This is also the case of Lombard vis-a-vis Italian as a Dachsprache.
Please notice that in the Wiki about Ausbausprache, etc. the term 'language' is used in all cases, making no assumption as to whether there is a codified standard or not.
If an authoritative linguist like Kloss, together with many others, uses the word 'Sprache'/'language' without implying standardisation, I can't see any reason (other than Italian cultural imperialism...) why we shouldn't safely switch the "Lombard (linguistics)" wiki back to "Lombard language". -- Jorgengb 18:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Btw:
For the UNESCO Red Book, Lombard is a 'potentially endangered' language; see [2].
For Ethnologue, Lombard is one of the 'languages of Switzerland' [3] and one of the 'languages of Italy' [4]
As per today 20th November 2006, the Lombard Wikipedia [5] with its 3,014 articles ranks as the 89th of 250 (ranking for Armenian: 91; Friulian: 106; Cantonese: 107; Quechua: 131; Romansh: 143; Classical Chinese: 159; Sardinian: 160). The Lombard Wikipedia shows the main page alternatively in Western and Eastern Lombard (odd and even days, or the other way round). -- Jorgengb 18:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
The above opinions should be formulated into a formal move request at WP:RM to gain wider input. — AjaxSmack 20:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move.-- Flavi 10:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Lombard_(linguistics) → Lombard language — For the UNESCO Red Book, Lombard is a 'potentially endangered' language; for Ethnologue, Lombard is one of the languages of Switzerland and one of the languages of Italy. Flavi 11:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
"A language may be an abstand language without being an ausbau language. This is often the case with minority languages used within a larger nation state, where the minority language is used only in private and all official functions are performed in the majority language." ( Ausbausprache, etc.).-- Jorgengb 17:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
"There are no universally accepted criteria for distinguishing languages from dialects, although a number of paradigms exist, which render sometimes contradictory results. The exact distinction is therefore a subjective one, dependent on the user's frame of reference." -- Ptcamn 18:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
And now it looks like User:Clamengh has gone ahead and moved it before the consensus is in. The box says "after a few days", not "after a few hours". -- Ptcamn 17:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Even if Lombard is a "language", the title should be Lombard (language), not Lombard language, unless Lombard language happens to be the most common way it is referred to. It seems to me that the title debate should be about whether the name should be Lombard (linguistics), Lombard (language), or Lombard (dialect), but Lombard language should not even be one of the options. -- Serge 21:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Are there any other instances of language-related articles in the en.wikipedia with titles like X (language) ? Btw., Lombard language happens to be the most common way to refer to Lombard in the scientific community aware of its existence (cf. authors mentioned above) -- Jorgengb 14:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Per WP:BOLD, and the fact that the debate here seems to be more about whether Lombard is a "language" or not, I moved Lombard language to Lombard (language). You can argue and decide by consensus whether language or something else should be the disambiguator in the parenthetic remark, but, whatever you decide, please do not make the disambiguator be part of the name of the subject in the title - leave it in parenthesis. Thanks. See WP:NAME and WP:DAB. -- Serge 21:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I did not realize (until now), that it is a Wikipedia convention to use the language suffix in the title without parenthesis. That doesn't seem right to me. I've started a discussion about this over at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (languages). -- Serge 22:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Sirs, many thanks to everybody for taking part in this passionating discussion. As a matter of fact, 'Lombard language' (or tongue) is the standard term used by scholars to designate this language. So this is the right place for this article, as Bkonrad correctly poointed out. As someone else noted, a Google search for 'Lombard language' returns more than 1.000.000 results: I think this settles the question. I think that politicised views should be left far from this encyclopedia, as WP:NOT requires. Reality is simple: no doubt that Lombard is a dying language, so everyone is kindly asked not to shot at the red cross. Thank you. Here are some references:
Many other ones available upon request. All in all, please, be so kind to get yourselves documented upon verifiable sources. From now on I will be speaking as a spokesman of Lombard community: we are firm in defending our language, and this place for this article. Thank you. -- Clamengh 17:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following statement.
No Lombard variety is mutually intelligible with Italian. The Lombard speaking population of Switzerland have long been indentifying as the "Italian speaking community", which stands in stark contrast with the closely related Romansh language, which is never thought of as an Italian dialect.
In my opinion the comparison does not stand: Romansh was never considered an Italian dialect because it isn't one. In the Italian speaking part of Switzerland (as in Italy) the spoken language is Italian (and in addition Lombard). In the Romansh speaking regions Italian is not spoken. Romansh is the sole language. Matteo 14:12, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
It's up to en.wiki to decide what the community pleases on this issue. Anyway, I wish you all to note that the WMF at large uses ISO 639-3 as a source for language denomination, and not anything else. No matter what happens here NO request based on codes external to ISO 639-3 will be accepted, according to the current policy. We are no Language Darwin, we don't create names, and much of what is happening here is largely in the bounds of Original Research. Everyone is welcome to document local academic positions that step out of mainstream international classification, but acting as a source at personal level is off limits. I feel this much is due. -- Bèrto 'd Sèra 11:26, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
FYI, please see:
-- A. B. (talk) 15:40, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The statement "The term Lombard refers to a group of related varieties" is confusing, as it implies that "being made up of related varieties" is a peculiar carachteristic of Lombard, whilst it is true of any known human language (though it's true of some artificial languages too, eg LISP). I've now edited this, hoping that we can discuss the varieties in the "varieties" section, as is done for other languages. Also, the statement that "The union of Western Lombard or Insubric, Eastern Lombard and intermediate varieties under the denomination of "Lombard" is simply conventional and not based on linguistic analysis" is utterly wrong, as the two differ mostly in their word-level phonology (Easter Lombard shows s- spirantisation and fricative elision in context where western Lombard doesn't) but they are clearly to be brought together when it comes to their syntactic structure, as well as their wider-level phonology (as discussed by, for example, Biondelli [ [8]]). -- Dakrismeno ( talk) 12:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
The site www.alperiodic.net links to an online periodical in Lombard, for those who wish to see what the language looks and sounds like. Why was it deleted?? -- Dakrismeno ( talk) 11:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
A "Familiy Language" title has been added to the introductory section in the last edit. 1) I have no idea what that term would mean 2) I thought it was customary to have untitled introductory sections to the topic
I didn't want to just revert it without saying anything, but I'll revert it shortly.
LjL ( talk) 17:12, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
In the Language infobox, the subdivision Gallo-Italian appears where other languages have Gallo-Iberian (between Western and Gallo-Romance). I don't know if this is a mistake or a reflection of some taxonomy war, but it's certainly confusing. Gallo-Italian redirects to Northern Italian languages, where the infobox says they are a subdivision of Gallo-Romance.-- 87.162.47.230 ( talk) 18:02, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't think this statement was POV. As also reported in the info-box, the gallo-italic language(s) belong to a separate Romance subfamily compared to Italian, and therefore are by definition separate from Italian (though disputable whether they form one or several separate languages, but this is a separate issue). As it is logically impossible for two given languages to (1) belong to a separate subfamily AND (2) be dialects of each other, the statement was entirely coherent with Romance categorization, and thus not POV. I thus proceed to change it back. -- Dakrismeno ( talk) 10:49, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
As also reported in the info-box, the gallo-italic language(s) belong to a separate Romance subfamily compared to Italian, and therefore are by definition separate from Italian (though disputable whether they form one or several separate languages, but this is a separate issue). As it is logically impossible for two given languages to (1) belong to a separate subfamily AND (2) be dialects of each other, the statement was entirely coherent with Romance categorization, and thus not "dubious". I thus proceed to change it back. -- Dakrismeno ( talk) 14:15, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Hello All,
I've used wikipedia for some time, like most college students, but am rather new to the whole writing side. Naytheless, I have something I'd like to ask that applies to a few articles I've read. If this has already been addressed, forgive me, but I must question the need to give a citation for a line akin to "though a very small minority may be uncomfortable speaking it". If someone points out a maybe rather than saying "a small minority is uncomfortable speaking Lombard", I see no need for a quote. The sentence might be in need of better wording, but a pointing out a maybe is just that, and demanding a citation of such lines seems nitpicky, and a want of a citation wouldn't take any weight from the passage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chakrar16 ( talk • contribs) 15:27, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
In the specialised literature I could not find one reference using overtly the label "Lombard language" (apart from it being or not a language, who cares). Its use here is clearly NNPOV. Check the following:
In Italian, the term "language" (again, without considering the nature of the object in question, just the label) is usually used in administrative orders but there is no source stating that that is the most common usage (see also WP:RELY). It is used in other sources, generally of non-linguistic or non-academic/other nature (see [9]). Both "lombard dialect" and "lombard language" should appear in the article, as per NPOV. -- SynConlanger ( talk) 09:59, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
I removed again this confusing statement, which is suboptimal and unencyclopedic in several ways:
In other words, that paragraph is flawed in just about every possible way. if Theblogger01 or others intend to restore it once more after it was removed by someone else before me, I urge to fix all of the aforementioned issues before doing so.
In addition, the edit summary with which it was reinstated is misguided, since Lombard is clearly not "a dialect of Italian" and it is of course not "based on Italian grammar". It is a regional language of Italy descended from Latin independently of Italian, as any linguistic tree would and does show (check the article and its sources before making WP:BOLD edits, thanks). LjL ( talk) 22:51, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
You are correct in that there was confusion in stating that Lombard is a dialect of Italian which is not the case. However, you are incorrect in a few of your comments:
I am happy to amend the statement. Some of your rebuttals are subjective and non-academic. Before we go through another tit for tat on my statement let's see what you actually agree or disagree with. Thank you.
Theblogger01 ( talk) 2:02, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Lombard language. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:25, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Hello! My name is Mary and I am a linguistics student currently taking a phonetics course. We were given an assignment involving inputting the phonological features of a language on a Wikipedia page, where it didn't already exist. As you can see by the new section, I found a published document detailing the different consonants and vowels and I filled out the charts accordingly. I am happy to be able to take part in growing and sharing this wonderful language. Thank you Marehubbs ( talk) 10:59, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
The phonology section seems a little bit disorganized to me, especially the consonant chart. It could definitely be organized more like the standard IPA chart. In addition, it doesn’t distinguish which consonants and vowels belong to which dialects, and which ones are allophones versus distinct phonemes. I think these distinctions are greatly needed, or else readers don’t know which sounds occur in which varieties. At some point I may attempt this myself, but I am a very new contributor and I’m sure everyone would agree that a more experienced and knowledgeable editor would be preferred. MichaelAmpe101 ( talk) 14:42, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
@ Marehubbs and MichaelAmpe101: fixed it. :) 〜 イヴァンスクルージ九十八[IvanScrooge98]( 会話) 15:27, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Hi, I'm Gat lombart, I'm from Lombardy and I'm starting a wiktionary in Lombard language. I point out that in the wiktionary there are some appendices that explain Lombard grammar, but just written in Lombard. They are collected in the category incubator:Category: Wt/lmo/Gramatega_lombarda. The most important one is the one that explains the sentence constructions: incubator:Wt/lmo/Appendix:Costruzzion_de_la_fras_in_lombard. Moreover I point out that a new ortography, the New Lombard Ortography, has been gaining ground for about two years on wiki projects in Lombard. Lombard wiktionary is written by using this ortography.
As I am already busy with the wiktionary I will not have time to help you directly, in the translation of the pages, but I will be able to help you to translate some word through the wiktionary itself. You can ask me for the translation of some words by writing it on this page. I hope you can help me to build wiktionary too, since the wiktionary needs users to start. It would also be nice if anyone of you were interested in learning the Lombard language.
If someone wants to add English translations of Lombard words they can do so by writing *ingles: word traslation into english under the model {{Wt/lmo/-trad-}} like in this example: incubator:Wt/lmo/aneda -- Gat lombart ( talk) 07:57, 15 May 2021 (UTC)