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Are there no lolicon covers that don't have a half-naked girl holding a dildo bear on the cover? Another cover is also a reasonable solution to the argument.-- Prosfilaes 21:46, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
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paroxysm
(n)
22:25, 25 January 2006 (UTC)Since there's a good number of people on either side of the straw poll, I believe this is the only solution. Whoever wants to try this should find a picture that meets the following standards:
If you would like to attempt this Herculean feat, you can try http://danbooru.donmai.us/ where I found the image that I tried to propose. I wouldn't be arsed uploading it until after it's been vetted. Ashibaka tock 00:28, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
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paroxysm
(n)
01:06, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Some of the archived comments on this discussion make the claim that viewing the article, with the image, is illegal in Canada. I'd like to point out that the Canadian government is itself linking to the article, and presenting it as information on the definition of "lolicon", not as an example of an illegal Web site: http://ncecc.ca/fact_sheets/anime_e.htm 69.63.62.226 15:21, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
KEEP IT and add more child pornography as long as Mohammed cartoons are visible here at Wikipedia. Because it's a right to love child porn. A kind of freedom of expression.
Okay, so the result of the straw poll seems to be something of a draw (tho we should prob give it some more time)... in the mean time & for future reference, what significance does the draw have for keeping it inline or linkimaging it? Where is the onus? That is, should the image be kept inline only if there is community support for keeping it, or should the image be kept inline until there is community support for linking it? I'd suggest it's the former, not the latter. Quoteth Jimbo Wales (citation: Talk:Autofellatio/Image_polls_and_discussions#Thus_spoke_Jimbo):
I didn't delete the image, and I didn't decide the case. What I did was make a change to the article which is consistent with the ongoing vote. There is no reason (at all!) to have a disgusting and idiotic picture on the article until there is community support for keeping it. And that wasn't about to happen. And yes, SPUI, my edicts are still case law, at least, if they ever were then they still are. But in this case, the edict is just this: follow the will of the community, and out of respect for different opinions, follow the benevolent and inoffensive route while seriously discussing the merits of the image. If that's tyranny, well... --Jimbo Wales 08:57, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC) {emphasis added}
I think this makes a clear case for linkimaging it... I therefore ask one of the users on the OTHER side of the argument (i.e. those wanting to keep it inline) to make the necessary changes... (I won't, learnt my lesson about edit warring on this page already... :) Mikkerpikker ... 20:16, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
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paroxysm
(n)
20:24, 26 January 2006 (UTC)In any case, Will Beback seems to have found a good replacement. Ashibaka tock 06:48, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
User:JabberMonkey's image, on the other hand, portrays penetration and is therefore illegal in Florida. He needs to stop adding it. Ashibaka tock 21:21, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I just realized that google is censoring this article.
You are trying to censor images. JabberMonkey 22:51, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
" Will Beback (Talk) (rv please goive a reason on the talk page for changing to an image that does not have consensus)"
A) Reasons were ALREADY given, claiming they weren't is a lie... you shouldn't lie in edit comments. B) It does have consensus, despite a group of petty censors showing up out of nowhere to try to overturn it. C) If it DID lack consensus, then ew default to what was here previously, which means keeping it. D) replacing the image does not have consensus either, so how can you justify doing something new without consensus because you claim the existing thing didn't have consensus. E) It is against Wikipedia's policy's to censor images that you personally find objecionable that otherwise have encyclopedic purpose, see WP:NOT.
The bottom line here is that unless you have consensus to MAKE changes, you cannot make them. For you to claim we need consensis to KEEP what's ALREADY here is completely against how this site works. DreamGuy 00:36, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
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paroxysm
(n)
21:13, 28 January 2006 (UTC)They are both an erotic depiction of a little girl. They both illustrate the topic, one as good as the other; a dildo doesn't really inform. There is no particular political reason to choose this over that, other than "I think this one's prettier" or whatnot, which we can't determine using any policy or guideline. It would probably be best to just include the more legal one, then, in the aim of furthering Wikipedia's aspirations to best serve worldwide interests. //
paroxysm
(n)
03:49, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Can we stop it already and decide on an image on the talk page? I'm sure we ALL have better things to do than rv-ing... Mikkerpikker ... 05:59, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Alright, DreamGuy is claiming that the former state of this article can be called a "consensus", although there was very little debate about it until recently. I don't want to hold another straw poll about this, but is it obvious to everyone else that the current debate overrules whatever there was before?
We can assume everyone in favor of linking the old one prefers the new one, and Paroxysm has asked everyone to keep the new one so to end the revert warring, so that puts us 9 to 5 (64%, or a two-thirds majority) in favor of the new one. Ashibaka tock 16:43, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Let me count this out, with some assumptions based on the previous poll:
9/13 = 70%. Ashibaka tock 22:36, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Is there a non- WP:NOT violating argument for removing this? Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:02, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Is there a reputable source that says that the US legal issues discussed (specifically, the PROTECT act) apply to drawings, cartoons, sculptures, or paintings depicting minors or adults? Hipocrite - «Talk» 23:12, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 71, Sec. 1466A, Para C. "c) Nonrequired Element of Offense. - It is not a required element of any offense under this section that the minor depicted actually exist."-- Jack Schitt 08:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I read through the PROTECT act and it states "This definition does not apply to depictions that are drawings, cartoons, sculptures, or paintings depicting minors or adults." That would seem to rule out Lolicon as illegal, at least as it is traditionally defined in America. - Kuzain 10:24, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
What about this: we keep 2 images but have the contentious one linkimaged? This addresses concerns about "censorship" but does not force ppl to commit crime & is not gratuitously offensive... (can we please keep it like this for a while and see what ppl think?) Mikkerpikker ... 13:44, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Responses can be found at: Talk:Lolicon/NewComp
...work it out here please. · Katefan0 (scribble)/ poll 16:32, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I was going to add the old image to the bad image list per Hipocrite's suggestion but this would be an obvious misuse of admin powers. Instead, I requested protection for this page so that the edit war would stop. Ashibaka tock 18:39, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Please don't put any positioning here. Put your real arguments and what you really believe. Please sign anything acceptable to you.
For the currently protected:
(Per Hipocrite, please debate this under a separate heading, below.)
Would signatories of "Single new image" accept linkingthe butt image? I would be strongly opposed to removing the butt image entirely, but the linking is something I'd be willing to discuss (though I do not support it). Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:04, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
For what it is worth, the current version is lacking in only one respect... the Hiyashibara needs to be left side because the section dividers are screwed up when it's on the right. Sweetfreek 23:43, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
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paroxysm
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03:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)Getting back to the compromise that Hipocrite suggested, is it agreeable to all? I don't objection. - Will Beback 04:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
So if I said I'm upset we can remove the image? - Will Beback 17:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
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paroxysm
(n)
19:35, 3 February 2006 (UTC)The image in debate it NOT lolicon, it's toddlerkon. Those (most) in debate over this are not fans of the genre, those who are would agree that that picture does not belong in this article. And that toddlerkon is NOT a subgenre of loli, but a genre on it's own. Saying toddlerkon it a subgenre of loli is like saying loli is a subgenre of the "18 and legal" genre. Request to create seperate page for Toddlekon and remove the section and image from this page.
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paroxysm
(n)
03:59, 1 February 2006 (UTC)I propose changing this: Under the 'Controversy' heading, change the phrase 'crime against children in Japan' to 'reported crime against children' in Japan.
I suggest this in the spirit of accuracy. No crime is reported 100% and some are reported at low rates, such as rape in the US: 39% according to Wikipedia.
All these arguments are only in favor of adding the word "reported" to the article, once. Thank you for your consideration. Please offer reasoned comments/critcism.
(Maybe I don't understand how to suggest changes to a locked article?)
-- Zaorish 17:01, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Some stuff for a "see also" (perhaps): Gothic Lolita and Lolita fashion. Didn't see either linked in the article, but didn't look hard for 'em either. Just FYI. -- DanielCD 22:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
This contain lolicon http://img.renchan.org/imgboard/
If indeed as the article states, the PROTECT act covers simulated child pornography and it is illegal to possess- we need to ask if we are putting out American readers at risk for prosecution ot at least liabilty for viewing the pictures posted, (as we all know we "download" every picture we view on the net in order to view it). Beyond the question of decency is that of *responsibility*. No one here wants to break the law and so I advocate removing the pictures completely. I would have advocated it completely before but now there is a more practical reason. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Angrynight ( talk • contribs) .
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paroxysm
(n)
16:45, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Just FYI: It's not illegal to depict womens faces in the Islamic world. A least not after the fall of the Taliban, they were the last. In spite of media depictions, such depictions have been present from a long time ago (centuries). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Angrynight ( talk • contribs) .
This is not the place to discuss this, I'm sure you'll agree. Though as to legal codes- I disagree once again. Angrynight 03:44, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Is this ready to be unprotected? It's been locked for a good bit now. · Katefan0 (scribble)/ poll 20:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't see any disagreement either. It's been protected long enough. Let it be free. -- Cyde Weys 22:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
So, is there anyone who disagrees with moving the images below the first screen? - Will Beback 21:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
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paroxysm
(n)
22:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
This link was given to me from the 3rd opinion wikipedia page. WP:3O
My opinion is that there should be no image censorship on wikipedia, whatever the case, so long as it violates no laws in the land of the server's location (in this case, I believe, Hillsborough county, FL, USA . Or pinellas county, I'm not sure, but it was Tampa/st. pete area I think). Should you want any further clarification on my statement, please ask me on my talk page. Now removing 3d opinion entry as per rules. Thanks for flying delta.
⇒
SWATJester
Ready
Aim
Fire!
07:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
For those of you not aware of this, Wikipedia is running the images of Muhammad at Muhammad cartoons, although these pictures are controversial and illegal and apparently also violence-inspiring in much of the world. But they're not illegal under Florida law, and they're notable and informative, so we run them. QED. Babajobu 08:05, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm thinking that since the image in question is a magazine cover, and it's being used in an article which isn't about that magazine, it's not fair use? Alph a x τ ε χ 04:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
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paroxysm
(n)
00:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Ignis, a contributor to Wikimedia Commons, has recently taken photographs which are both illustrative for this article, and might not carry the potential problems regarding law and susceptibilities that the present images do.
The second one, in particular, might be a good candidate. Any thoughts ? Rama 10:10, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
That's not lolicon by any stretch of the imagination. :/ //
paroxysm
(n)
00:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
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paroxysm
(n)
01:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)No need to show actual lolicon pictures at all. If you must have pictures, there are many alternatives, for example: pictures of prominent lolicon authors, people perusing the lolicon aisle at a manga shop obscuring the front covers, an array of lolicon titles with them stacked in such a way that the pictures are obscured etc etc etc. It is gratuitous and unnecessary to show the current picture, or any picture that depicts children in a sexual manner. The definition and discussion alone are enough to alert us to what lolicon is. AlwaysNever 09:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
If the books in the current images are more "lolicon" than the books in the proposed images, I am in favor of keeping the current images, as seemed to have been decided further up the page. I do think pictures of artwork illustrate the subject better than pictures of book spines, manga artists, manga stores, etc., although there is no reason we can't use pictures of those, too. Joey Q. McCartney 10:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
OK moral arguments aside, (though I think moral concerns are VERY relevant here) BTW the argument that it should be included for the sake of freedom of speech is a moral argument itself ;)
Rama, I am glad you raised the question of whether the picture is 1)harmful to Wiki and 2)legal.
It is harmful to Wiki-it undermines the ability of Wiki to be an encyclopaedic source. Remember, this article is not for the editors. It is in an encyclopedia thus, it is for a [I]general[/I] audience. Keep that in mind. The veteran editors have lost sight of the fact that a general audience may not have [I]any[/I] knowledge of lolicon. They , like I did when I first wiki'd this article, may have no knowledge at all. You can't reasonably suggest that people wiki'ing this page should already know that it may be illegal to view this page, and that it could be offensive!
And there is a very high likelihood this is illegal. We can never know all the places that it may be illegal, but you can be sure that it is illegal somewhere, or will be soon. It is the very stuff of case law. I know that in itself is not an argument not to include it (yes, I know the vagina argument *rolls eyes*). However, since Wiki is an encyclopedia, the onus is on US. Remove the picture, and replace it with something that doesn't feature a sexually suggestive picture of a child.
If you want so badly to have images, do it in your own websites, not a public encyclopedia. People cannot take responsibility for things they don't know about!
AlwaysNever
03:58, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Back to the main topic :P Unfortunately, we are already in the thick of ethical judgments, whether we like it or not.. Ok, take the objectivity requirement. Why do we have to be objective? Cause Wiki says so, cause Jimbo told us to, cause everyone else told us to….well, maybe. But why does Wiki want us to? It comes from a moral theory-that it is right to let all sorts of views and ideas get a hearing, whether we like it or not. Whether we acknowledge or not, ethical judgments are being made. Cest La Vie. :D When we are aware of them, then we can make sense of them…
Kotra, I like what you are saying about the needing to be a line between offense and information! Hmmm, so you say the first picture is somewheres around the border. I don’t, I think its way past the border. Where do we draw the line? I would wager that a large proportion of the population would agree with me that any picture depicting a child for the purpose of sexual fulfillment is repulsive. But who is qualified to judge? Me? You? A roving vigilante group? An Unrepentant paedophile? An ethics professor? The editors of this article?...*rolls eyes dramatically* Jimbo?
I propose that all of the above are equally unqualified. No-one should be able to decide for someone else. But, it seems those that voted in favour of the picture felt they were the ones qualified. That is POV-they decided that they were the ones that knew what was offensive and what wasn’t. And they also seem to think they can choose for others. They give people no chance to disagree with their moral decision. As soon as they click, they have no choice but to see it. And it is already in their cache.
Like you say give people a chance to decide for themselves. Give a definition and a discussion of lolicon. Give pictures related to lolicon, but not lolicon itself. Give links to pictures, with a description of the content, and risks involved eg. legality issues. It is common practice for encyclopedias to omit some details, and give bibliographies for people to follow up.
And yup I know, Wiki has a no censor for minors policy. But, firstly, it is a community standard-these are the more agreed upon standards, but they are still open to further refinement. I would argue at the moment the community standards are ill-defined, and in conflict with each other. The minor guideline simply says that the organization Wiki can’t guarantee it will be safe for minors. But it goes on to say obviously inappropriate material will be deleted, but does not define what inappropriate is. It is simply describing the typical Wiki process. It isn’t prescriptive. As far as I am aware there are no agreed on censorship policies. Of course, it is a difficult subject!
Thoughts on link proposal? AlwaysNever 15:36, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I am strongly for keeping the pictures of lolicon in the article. That's what the article is about after all, if pictures are available let's use them. I agree that drawings of children havig sex is more then a little... offputting to say the least but an encyclopedas job is to give the facts of what happends in the world, and to use other media (video, pictures, sound) to help where available. Gerard Foley 16:28, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I just had a thought. What about having a panel that hides the pictures with a warning about the content. People that want to read the Wiki without seeing the picture can, and those that want to see the pictures can click on them to unhide them. That way they can stay on the site, and gets around issues of consent
AlwaysNever
02:02, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Can someone please add {{wiktionary|lolicon}} to this page. Thanks, Gerard Foley 00:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
It wouldn't have been my choice to unprotect the article yet, since consensus is still forming, but someone requested it be unprotected so they could make some changes, so I've done so. Please continue to work on coming to a consensus and avoid edit warring. · Katefan0 (scribble)/ poll 20:14, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
As requested, let's revisit the inlining option discussed earlier. This would keep the second image ( Image:Hikari_Hayashibara_Manga.jpg) available in its current position on the page, but only as a link that the reader may follow at their discretion. (appearing like this: [9]) Some have expressed a desire to keep the image for relevance and against perceived censorship, and some have expressed a desire to remove it due to people not expecting to see the image and finding it offensive (or illegal in their country). This compromise, while not perfect, would allow the image to be both available on the page and protected from those who may find it offensive (or illegal).
Are there any objections? If so, please put forth an alternative. - kotra 08:39, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Excellent!! I have absolutely no objections to it whatsoever. :D But it should be carried over to the first picture too, so the issues of illegality, consent and offensiveness are completely avoided. *Thumbs up* AlwaysNever 09:23, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Sockpuppet?! No. I am working idependently. *sighs* Such groundless accusations-Give some substance to your allegations at least! Attack the idea, not me. Justify your stand. I understand you're upset by the suggestion; let's talk about it, rather than dealing in insults. AlwaysNever 05:42, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
If you only edits to Wikipedia have been to complain about 1 article, it's understandable if people suspect you’re a sockpuppet. Gerar... I mean.. Mr. Sock 01:17, 20 February 2006 (UTC) *Innocent looks*
Where will it end...crusader, sockpuppet. Ok, I am new. I have only been on Wiki a bit more than a week. That's why I am only focusing on this page for the time being-better to get your bearings before you branch ay. You are being mean to a N00b :C. Meanie-pants!! But I am not a completely naive one; I know you are in breach of the cvility community standard-let's play nice mm'kay?
PS this page is not the only one I have commented on anyways. Look 'n see. PPS I'm going to write on the status of lolicon in NZ. SO HAH MR SOCK :P AlwaysNever 05:28, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Other discussion aside, is there still an objection to inlining the second image? I ask again because most of those who have commented seem to support it. I'm not interested in making this change without a consensus, though. -
kotra
06:13, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes the image is fine as it is for now. Gerard Foley 14:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
All the questions and objections to the pictures in the article amount to people's point of view and censorship. This is in violation of 2 Wikipedia policies, Wikipedia is not censored and Neutral point of view.
Who is to say that these pictures are offensive, many people in the USA and Europe will probably think so (understandably) but clearly this view is not shared by all, i.e. the Japanese. What if someone had moral objections to woman in swimsuits, would we put them as links also?
Some people will look at this article and find the images offensive.
Some people will look at this article and find the images offensive.
And some people will look at this article and find the images offensive.
This is clearly not a solution to the problem, unless we want to link all pictures where someone has an objection. If you don't want to see the pictures then don't read the article or turn off images in your web browser, just as I refrain from typing "child porn" into Google for fear of what I might get.
When making arguments for the removal or linking of the pictures, apply the same argument to all pictures where there may be objections and ask yourself, "If we do it for these pictures, why not those ones also?". Morally objectionable pictures have not been removed or linked to on more popular pages and the same should be true here. Gerard Foley 19:09, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Mmmm hmmm. Censorship won't do. But it is not censorship. Note that anyone that wants to view the pictures could. We wouldn't be stopping them. One extra click they are there. It is in the article, it just isn't visible right away. No censorship here. And the advantage here is that they can do it knowing the risks involved eg legality.
I refrain from typing child porn in too, but If I wanted to find a general overview of pedophilia, I wouldn't expect to see a picture of child porn there.
Yup, alot of people could find it traumatising, offensive whatever...some *eyebrows raised* might enjoy it. But since we want to be NPOV lets not take a view either way to its status. Leave that up to the readers. Let them choose.
And yes, there is a community standard "no censorship for minors", but there is also one titled "Wiki is not an experiment in anarchy"-therin it says speech is non unregulated in Wiki. But we needn't take recourse to arguing between the many and conflicting guidelines. It isn't censorship. Its giving a choice.
And just because it is not yet established practice, doesn't mean we can't be among the first to use it. Wiki is constantly evolving, it is not set in stone. Dreadful would be the day it was. AlwaysNever 06:42, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
It's nice to have choice, but why give a choice on this article when there is no choice on the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy article? Those images are highly offensive, yet are still in the article, so what's different here? Gerard Foley 14:36, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
{{linkimage|Naziswastika.svg}}
Yes Kotra well said. No-one is trying to enforce the law. NOTE WELL: look at my suggestion for legality issues above. If practible, country specific hiding would give viewers discretion. It is still available and they can click it if they want. Ergo, (latin words are sooo cool :P)it is not enforcing the law. They can break the law if they like; I don't care. They can do it standing on stilts screaming "the law is nonsense on stilts" for all I care, because I don't. It isn't my place to care. But forcing people to break the law by I do care about
It would not babysit peoples minds. They can do what they like, they can click on it, whatever. Imagine little kids: they can eat chocolate ice-cream to death if they want to- I would be a negligant babysitter indeed :P. Placing the picture on the top is babysiter behaviour. It is like sitting on top of a metaphorical child, stuffing brusselsprouts in their mouth. "Eat, Eat damn you! You have to be free to see these pictures! If you have freedom to see a picture, you need freedom not see the picture too. Otherwise notions of freedom of speech are a meaningless nonsense. AND it is important they aren't. "Society has made you free to see these pictures, NOW LOOK DAMMIT!"You say stradling the person, thrusting the picture in their face.
And, it is culturally chauvinist-by forcing people to see, you are not tolerant of individual differences. By not giving a choice, you say, there are many different viewpoints in the world, but hey, my one is the best. And Kotra makes an excellent point, it is also legalistically chauvinistic.
And before anyone says, "OH but they a free as a bird not to type in lolicon", that is a flawed argument. Like I and others have said before, that's paradoxical. If you don't know already what lolicon is, (This is a bleedin' encyclopedia, you know :P), how can make a choice not to see the picture? AlwaysNever 04:58, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
While it's a laudable attempt at resolving the issue, changing one's CSS file to self-censor the images is not a realistic solution. The reader doesn't know they can censor these particular images until they view this talk page (who reads the talk page before the article itself?). And even if the notice template was put at the top of the Lolicon article itself (god forbid), many viewers will still not understand the process needed to change their CSS file. - kotra 06:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
For the moment, can anyone give me some more advice on how to do this? Dammit, everytime I log on and press on the watchlist the pic loads up. I donwannasee. And I can't review the article w/o seeing the dildo pic. How do you reroute the cache?! No friggin clue. AlwaysNever 07:04, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
What's monobook? I've used notebook to alter CSS files, but not familiar with monobook..same thing is it? Or where can it be found? Yah, I think this CSS edit thing may be good for editors to avoid seeing it every time, but not for normal viewers. Same reasons stated above.
AlwaysNever
07:12, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Will do research on New Zealand. According to Wiki Child pornography any depiction seen to promote pedophilia is banned. That includes cartoons. It may be out of date, not sure on that count. Will follow up. AlwaysNever 07:18, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
The following claims are clearly OR: "The Act however doesn't seem to include works of art such as manga if they do not appear to look like a photograph." " Case law, notably the Supreme Court decision in R. v. Sharpe, interprets the statute to include purely fictional material even when no real children were involved in its production." Hipocrite - «Talk» 07:06, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Please move all discussion about the linking, hiding or censorship of the images to Wikipedia talk:Censorship. Thank you Gerard Foley 16:52, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Gerard, it seems (from what you say anyway) that you don't group linking or hiding in the same category as censorship either. Lining or hiding don't belong in that forum for that reason. Disagree? In order to refute my claim that it isn't censorship have to furnish me with particular reasons why you consider them censorship. <3 AlwaysNever 04:50, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Citation from "the Beat" is not a reliable source. I understand from the blog entry that Edmonton Journal has this information. Please cite directly from this article. As it stands the citation is unreliable. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources under online sources for information as to why. Ta. AlwaysNever 07:05, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Having read the discussion here, I support putting the images on a sub-page, with prominent links from this article.
Above by Johntex\ talk 01:43, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Do we need to list these imageboards? We already include two examples. If we do list the imageboards then perhaps we don't need the examples. Either way, it seems unnecesary to have both. - Will Beback 23:35, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
The tame pictures and descriptions in this article are not suffice to illustrate lolikon. Since none of the references provide any further enlightenment, and the pictures already on this article are hardly even loli, I've readded not4chan and renchan. Those links have been here for ages and were not just suddenly added now. 24.224.153.40 22:03, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
If the current pictures do not illustrate Lolicon then let's remove them. As for the imageboards, in addition to being forums they also are simply compendiums of copyrighted material which are all apparently posted with without the copyright holders' permission.
Can we find a site that does not violate copyrights? - Will Beback 02:20, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
The links to the imageboards are revelent to the article. As mentioned, imageboards itself cannot violate copyrights. It's what is posted that can. Similarly, the article P2P shares a similar situation and they link to p2p websites. Are we here to inform readers or what? -- 24.184.24.134 03:33, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Then what about Mininova? Bittorrent? Adding one relevent link is far from turning the article to a 'link farm'. -- 24.184.24.134 05:21, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I am really on the fence about Renchan. It does seem to be more than just an imageboard. I do not know about the others, but it has forums and others things that lead me to believe it is about more than posting porn. kotepho 06:04, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm objecting to the removal of Renchan due to copyright violations. There are numerous wikipedia articles which violates it, but mostly the controversial are the ones that gets contested. Over at Lion King, the article links to lionking.org. Do we assume Disney gave the webmaster permission to use all the images/sounds/videos hosted on the website? Over at Pornography, they linked to Eonsex, which is basically the same as an imageboard -> read the term of use. I can find many more examples, if you wish. Why the double standard? Where's the uproar? -- 24.184.24.134 06:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
But Renchan, a lolicon community/gallery, was not given exception over lionking.org because? Renchan.org(fan site) has as much to do with the lolicon article as lionking.org (fansite) as to do with the Lion King article. -- 24.184.24.134 11:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
<comments redacted by admin>
They do not provide a unique resource (e.g. convenience is not uniqueness) as these images can be widely found elsewhere. There is no reason to link them. - brenneman {T} {L} 12:46, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
My reading of
Wikipedia:External links suggests that the ext. links should be kept.
12:41, 18 March 2006 (UTC) —This unsigned comment was added by Sam Spade ( talk • contribs) .
Requesting an editor to add back not4chan.org link. I cannot as the page is under protection. -- Jqiz 03:08, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Comparisons to other articles aside (because we're not shooting for the lowest common denominator here) I spent considerable time examining the contents of these links before I removed them. The overwhelming preponderance of activity is swapping images or discussion about where to source further images. Subject matter aside, this is not diferent from any other external link examination, and any encyclopedic content provided by these sites is minute. - brenneman {L} 03:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
We currently have two fair use images on the same page. Thus clearly one of these is not fair use, and is instead a copyright violation. In the event of copyright questions, all issues are to be removed before the image is re-added, as noted in the
blocking policy.
brenneman
{T}
{L}
12:26, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
(moved up by brenneman {T} {L} 12:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC))
I think Brenneman is just making stuff up. I've never heard of this supposed "can't have two fair-use images on one page" policy. -- Cyde Weys 07:14, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I've removed this again. Please please do not re-add images whose fair-use status has been disputed until consensus is achieved. - brenneman {L} 07:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
brenneman {L} 14:10, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
Are there no lolicon covers that don't have a half-naked girl holding a dildo bear on the cover? Another cover is also a reasonable solution to the argument.-- Prosfilaes 21:46, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
//
paroxysm
(n)
22:25, 25 January 2006 (UTC)Since there's a good number of people on either side of the straw poll, I believe this is the only solution. Whoever wants to try this should find a picture that meets the following standards:
If you would like to attempt this Herculean feat, you can try http://danbooru.donmai.us/ where I found the image that I tried to propose. I wouldn't be arsed uploading it until after it's been vetted. Ashibaka tock 00:28, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
//
paroxysm
(n)
01:06, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Some of the archived comments on this discussion make the claim that viewing the article, with the image, is illegal in Canada. I'd like to point out that the Canadian government is itself linking to the article, and presenting it as information on the definition of "lolicon", not as an example of an illegal Web site: http://ncecc.ca/fact_sheets/anime_e.htm 69.63.62.226 15:21, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
KEEP IT and add more child pornography as long as Mohammed cartoons are visible here at Wikipedia. Because it's a right to love child porn. A kind of freedom of expression.
Okay, so the result of the straw poll seems to be something of a draw (tho we should prob give it some more time)... in the mean time & for future reference, what significance does the draw have for keeping it inline or linkimaging it? Where is the onus? That is, should the image be kept inline only if there is community support for keeping it, or should the image be kept inline until there is community support for linking it? I'd suggest it's the former, not the latter. Quoteth Jimbo Wales (citation: Talk:Autofellatio/Image_polls_and_discussions#Thus_spoke_Jimbo):
I didn't delete the image, and I didn't decide the case. What I did was make a change to the article which is consistent with the ongoing vote. There is no reason (at all!) to have a disgusting and idiotic picture on the article until there is community support for keeping it. And that wasn't about to happen. And yes, SPUI, my edicts are still case law, at least, if they ever were then they still are. But in this case, the edict is just this: follow the will of the community, and out of respect for different opinions, follow the benevolent and inoffensive route while seriously discussing the merits of the image. If that's tyranny, well... --Jimbo Wales 08:57, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC) {emphasis added}
I think this makes a clear case for linkimaging it... I therefore ask one of the users on the OTHER side of the argument (i.e. those wanting to keep it inline) to make the necessary changes... (I won't, learnt my lesson about edit warring on this page already... :) Mikkerpikker ... 20:16, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
//
paroxysm
(n)
20:24, 26 January 2006 (UTC)In any case, Will Beback seems to have found a good replacement. Ashibaka tock 06:48, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
User:JabberMonkey's image, on the other hand, portrays penetration and is therefore illegal in Florida. He needs to stop adding it. Ashibaka tock 21:21, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I just realized that google is censoring this article.
You are trying to censor images. JabberMonkey 22:51, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
" Will Beback (Talk) (rv please goive a reason on the talk page for changing to an image that does not have consensus)"
A) Reasons were ALREADY given, claiming they weren't is a lie... you shouldn't lie in edit comments. B) It does have consensus, despite a group of petty censors showing up out of nowhere to try to overturn it. C) If it DID lack consensus, then ew default to what was here previously, which means keeping it. D) replacing the image does not have consensus either, so how can you justify doing something new without consensus because you claim the existing thing didn't have consensus. E) It is against Wikipedia's policy's to censor images that you personally find objecionable that otherwise have encyclopedic purpose, see WP:NOT.
The bottom line here is that unless you have consensus to MAKE changes, you cannot make them. For you to claim we need consensis to KEEP what's ALREADY here is completely against how this site works. DreamGuy 00:36, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
//
paroxysm
(n)
21:13, 28 January 2006 (UTC)They are both an erotic depiction of a little girl. They both illustrate the topic, one as good as the other; a dildo doesn't really inform. There is no particular political reason to choose this over that, other than "I think this one's prettier" or whatnot, which we can't determine using any policy or guideline. It would probably be best to just include the more legal one, then, in the aim of furthering Wikipedia's aspirations to best serve worldwide interests. //
paroxysm
(n)
03:49, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Can we stop it already and decide on an image on the talk page? I'm sure we ALL have better things to do than rv-ing... Mikkerpikker ... 05:59, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Alright, DreamGuy is claiming that the former state of this article can be called a "consensus", although there was very little debate about it until recently. I don't want to hold another straw poll about this, but is it obvious to everyone else that the current debate overrules whatever there was before?
We can assume everyone in favor of linking the old one prefers the new one, and Paroxysm has asked everyone to keep the new one so to end the revert warring, so that puts us 9 to 5 (64%, or a two-thirds majority) in favor of the new one. Ashibaka tock 16:43, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Let me count this out, with some assumptions based on the previous poll:
9/13 = 70%. Ashibaka tock 22:36, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Is there a non- WP:NOT violating argument for removing this? Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:02, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Is there a reputable source that says that the US legal issues discussed (specifically, the PROTECT act) apply to drawings, cartoons, sculptures, or paintings depicting minors or adults? Hipocrite - «Talk» 23:12, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 71, Sec. 1466A, Para C. "c) Nonrequired Element of Offense. - It is not a required element of any offense under this section that the minor depicted actually exist."-- Jack Schitt 08:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I read through the PROTECT act and it states "This definition does not apply to depictions that are drawings, cartoons, sculptures, or paintings depicting minors or adults." That would seem to rule out Lolicon as illegal, at least as it is traditionally defined in America. - Kuzain 10:24, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
What about this: we keep 2 images but have the contentious one linkimaged? This addresses concerns about "censorship" but does not force ppl to commit crime & is not gratuitously offensive... (can we please keep it like this for a while and see what ppl think?) Mikkerpikker ... 13:44, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Responses can be found at: Talk:Lolicon/NewComp
...work it out here please. · Katefan0 (scribble)/ poll 16:32, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I was going to add the old image to the bad image list per Hipocrite's suggestion but this would be an obvious misuse of admin powers. Instead, I requested protection for this page so that the edit war would stop. Ashibaka tock 18:39, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Please don't put any positioning here. Put your real arguments and what you really believe. Please sign anything acceptable to you.
For the currently protected:
(Per Hipocrite, please debate this under a separate heading, below.)
Would signatories of "Single new image" accept linkingthe butt image? I would be strongly opposed to removing the butt image entirely, but the linking is something I'd be willing to discuss (though I do not support it). Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:04, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
For what it is worth, the current version is lacking in only one respect... the Hiyashibara needs to be left side because the section dividers are screwed up when it's on the right. Sweetfreek 23:43, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
//
paroxysm
(n)
03:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)Getting back to the compromise that Hipocrite suggested, is it agreeable to all? I don't objection. - Will Beback 04:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
So if I said I'm upset we can remove the image? - Will Beback 17:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
//
paroxysm
(n)
19:35, 3 February 2006 (UTC)The image in debate it NOT lolicon, it's toddlerkon. Those (most) in debate over this are not fans of the genre, those who are would agree that that picture does not belong in this article. And that toddlerkon is NOT a subgenre of loli, but a genre on it's own. Saying toddlerkon it a subgenre of loli is like saying loli is a subgenre of the "18 and legal" genre. Request to create seperate page for Toddlekon and remove the section and image from this page.
//
paroxysm
(n)
03:59, 1 February 2006 (UTC)I propose changing this: Under the 'Controversy' heading, change the phrase 'crime against children in Japan' to 'reported crime against children' in Japan.
I suggest this in the spirit of accuracy. No crime is reported 100% and some are reported at low rates, such as rape in the US: 39% according to Wikipedia.
All these arguments are only in favor of adding the word "reported" to the article, once. Thank you for your consideration. Please offer reasoned comments/critcism.
(Maybe I don't understand how to suggest changes to a locked article?)
-- Zaorish 17:01, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Some stuff for a "see also" (perhaps): Gothic Lolita and Lolita fashion. Didn't see either linked in the article, but didn't look hard for 'em either. Just FYI. -- DanielCD 22:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
This contain lolicon http://img.renchan.org/imgboard/
If indeed as the article states, the PROTECT act covers simulated child pornography and it is illegal to possess- we need to ask if we are putting out American readers at risk for prosecution ot at least liabilty for viewing the pictures posted, (as we all know we "download" every picture we view on the net in order to view it). Beyond the question of decency is that of *responsibility*. No one here wants to break the law and so I advocate removing the pictures completely. I would have advocated it completely before but now there is a more practical reason. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Angrynight ( talk • contribs) .
//
paroxysm
(n)
16:45, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Just FYI: It's not illegal to depict womens faces in the Islamic world. A least not after the fall of the Taliban, they were the last. In spite of media depictions, such depictions have been present from a long time ago (centuries). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Angrynight ( talk • contribs) .
This is not the place to discuss this, I'm sure you'll agree. Though as to legal codes- I disagree once again. Angrynight 03:44, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Is this ready to be unprotected? It's been locked for a good bit now. · Katefan0 (scribble)/ poll 20:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't see any disagreement either. It's been protected long enough. Let it be free. -- Cyde Weys 22:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
So, is there anyone who disagrees with moving the images below the first screen? - Will Beback 21:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
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paroxysm
(n)
22:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
This link was given to me from the 3rd opinion wikipedia page. WP:3O
My opinion is that there should be no image censorship on wikipedia, whatever the case, so long as it violates no laws in the land of the server's location (in this case, I believe, Hillsborough county, FL, USA . Or pinellas county, I'm not sure, but it was Tampa/st. pete area I think). Should you want any further clarification on my statement, please ask me on my talk page. Now removing 3d opinion entry as per rules. Thanks for flying delta.
⇒
SWATJester
Ready
Aim
Fire!
07:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
For those of you not aware of this, Wikipedia is running the images of Muhammad at Muhammad cartoons, although these pictures are controversial and illegal and apparently also violence-inspiring in much of the world. But they're not illegal under Florida law, and they're notable and informative, so we run them. QED. Babajobu 08:05, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm thinking that since the image in question is a magazine cover, and it's being used in an article which isn't about that magazine, it's not fair use? Alph a x τ ε χ 04:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
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paroxysm
(n)
00:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Ignis, a contributor to Wikimedia Commons, has recently taken photographs which are both illustrative for this article, and might not carry the potential problems regarding law and susceptibilities that the present images do.
The second one, in particular, might be a good candidate. Any thoughts ? Rama 10:10, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
That's not lolicon by any stretch of the imagination. :/ //
paroxysm
(n)
00:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
//
paroxysm
(n)
01:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)No need to show actual lolicon pictures at all. If you must have pictures, there are many alternatives, for example: pictures of prominent lolicon authors, people perusing the lolicon aisle at a manga shop obscuring the front covers, an array of lolicon titles with them stacked in such a way that the pictures are obscured etc etc etc. It is gratuitous and unnecessary to show the current picture, or any picture that depicts children in a sexual manner. The definition and discussion alone are enough to alert us to what lolicon is. AlwaysNever 09:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
If the books in the current images are more "lolicon" than the books in the proposed images, I am in favor of keeping the current images, as seemed to have been decided further up the page. I do think pictures of artwork illustrate the subject better than pictures of book spines, manga artists, manga stores, etc., although there is no reason we can't use pictures of those, too. Joey Q. McCartney 10:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
OK moral arguments aside, (though I think moral concerns are VERY relevant here) BTW the argument that it should be included for the sake of freedom of speech is a moral argument itself ;)
Rama, I am glad you raised the question of whether the picture is 1)harmful to Wiki and 2)legal.
It is harmful to Wiki-it undermines the ability of Wiki to be an encyclopaedic source. Remember, this article is not for the editors. It is in an encyclopedia thus, it is for a [I]general[/I] audience. Keep that in mind. The veteran editors have lost sight of the fact that a general audience may not have [I]any[/I] knowledge of lolicon. They , like I did when I first wiki'd this article, may have no knowledge at all. You can't reasonably suggest that people wiki'ing this page should already know that it may be illegal to view this page, and that it could be offensive!
And there is a very high likelihood this is illegal. We can never know all the places that it may be illegal, but you can be sure that it is illegal somewhere, or will be soon. It is the very stuff of case law. I know that in itself is not an argument not to include it (yes, I know the vagina argument *rolls eyes*). However, since Wiki is an encyclopedia, the onus is on US. Remove the picture, and replace it with something that doesn't feature a sexually suggestive picture of a child.
If you want so badly to have images, do it in your own websites, not a public encyclopedia. People cannot take responsibility for things they don't know about!
AlwaysNever
03:58, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Back to the main topic :P Unfortunately, we are already in the thick of ethical judgments, whether we like it or not.. Ok, take the objectivity requirement. Why do we have to be objective? Cause Wiki says so, cause Jimbo told us to, cause everyone else told us to….well, maybe. But why does Wiki want us to? It comes from a moral theory-that it is right to let all sorts of views and ideas get a hearing, whether we like it or not. Whether we acknowledge or not, ethical judgments are being made. Cest La Vie. :D When we are aware of them, then we can make sense of them…
Kotra, I like what you are saying about the needing to be a line between offense and information! Hmmm, so you say the first picture is somewheres around the border. I don’t, I think its way past the border. Where do we draw the line? I would wager that a large proportion of the population would agree with me that any picture depicting a child for the purpose of sexual fulfillment is repulsive. But who is qualified to judge? Me? You? A roving vigilante group? An Unrepentant paedophile? An ethics professor? The editors of this article?...*rolls eyes dramatically* Jimbo?
I propose that all of the above are equally unqualified. No-one should be able to decide for someone else. But, it seems those that voted in favour of the picture felt they were the ones qualified. That is POV-they decided that they were the ones that knew what was offensive and what wasn’t. And they also seem to think they can choose for others. They give people no chance to disagree with their moral decision. As soon as they click, they have no choice but to see it. And it is already in their cache.
Like you say give people a chance to decide for themselves. Give a definition and a discussion of lolicon. Give pictures related to lolicon, but not lolicon itself. Give links to pictures, with a description of the content, and risks involved eg. legality issues. It is common practice for encyclopedias to omit some details, and give bibliographies for people to follow up.
And yup I know, Wiki has a no censor for minors policy. But, firstly, it is a community standard-these are the more agreed upon standards, but they are still open to further refinement. I would argue at the moment the community standards are ill-defined, and in conflict with each other. The minor guideline simply says that the organization Wiki can’t guarantee it will be safe for minors. But it goes on to say obviously inappropriate material will be deleted, but does not define what inappropriate is. It is simply describing the typical Wiki process. It isn’t prescriptive. As far as I am aware there are no agreed on censorship policies. Of course, it is a difficult subject!
Thoughts on link proposal? AlwaysNever 15:36, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I am strongly for keeping the pictures of lolicon in the article. That's what the article is about after all, if pictures are available let's use them. I agree that drawings of children havig sex is more then a little... offputting to say the least but an encyclopedas job is to give the facts of what happends in the world, and to use other media (video, pictures, sound) to help where available. Gerard Foley 16:28, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I just had a thought. What about having a panel that hides the pictures with a warning about the content. People that want to read the Wiki without seeing the picture can, and those that want to see the pictures can click on them to unhide them. That way they can stay on the site, and gets around issues of consent
AlwaysNever
02:02, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Can someone please add {{wiktionary|lolicon}} to this page. Thanks, Gerard Foley 00:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
It wouldn't have been my choice to unprotect the article yet, since consensus is still forming, but someone requested it be unprotected so they could make some changes, so I've done so. Please continue to work on coming to a consensus and avoid edit warring. · Katefan0 (scribble)/ poll 20:14, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
As requested, let's revisit the inlining option discussed earlier. This would keep the second image ( Image:Hikari_Hayashibara_Manga.jpg) available in its current position on the page, but only as a link that the reader may follow at their discretion. (appearing like this: [9]) Some have expressed a desire to keep the image for relevance and against perceived censorship, and some have expressed a desire to remove it due to people not expecting to see the image and finding it offensive (or illegal in their country). This compromise, while not perfect, would allow the image to be both available on the page and protected from those who may find it offensive (or illegal).
Are there any objections? If so, please put forth an alternative. - kotra 08:39, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Excellent!! I have absolutely no objections to it whatsoever. :D But it should be carried over to the first picture too, so the issues of illegality, consent and offensiveness are completely avoided. *Thumbs up* AlwaysNever 09:23, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Sockpuppet?! No. I am working idependently. *sighs* Such groundless accusations-Give some substance to your allegations at least! Attack the idea, not me. Justify your stand. I understand you're upset by the suggestion; let's talk about it, rather than dealing in insults. AlwaysNever 05:42, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
If you only edits to Wikipedia have been to complain about 1 article, it's understandable if people suspect you’re a sockpuppet. Gerar... I mean.. Mr. Sock 01:17, 20 February 2006 (UTC) *Innocent looks*
Where will it end...crusader, sockpuppet. Ok, I am new. I have only been on Wiki a bit more than a week. That's why I am only focusing on this page for the time being-better to get your bearings before you branch ay. You are being mean to a N00b :C. Meanie-pants!! But I am not a completely naive one; I know you are in breach of the cvility community standard-let's play nice mm'kay?
PS this page is not the only one I have commented on anyways. Look 'n see. PPS I'm going to write on the status of lolicon in NZ. SO HAH MR SOCK :P AlwaysNever 05:28, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Other discussion aside, is there still an objection to inlining the second image? I ask again because most of those who have commented seem to support it. I'm not interested in making this change without a consensus, though. -
kotra
06:13, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes the image is fine as it is for now. Gerard Foley 14:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
All the questions and objections to the pictures in the article amount to people's point of view and censorship. This is in violation of 2 Wikipedia policies, Wikipedia is not censored and Neutral point of view.
Who is to say that these pictures are offensive, many people in the USA and Europe will probably think so (understandably) but clearly this view is not shared by all, i.e. the Japanese. What if someone had moral objections to woman in swimsuits, would we put them as links also?
Some people will look at this article and find the images offensive.
Some people will look at this article and find the images offensive.
And some people will look at this article and find the images offensive.
This is clearly not a solution to the problem, unless we want to link all pictures where someone has an objection. If you don't want to see the pictures then don't read the article or turn off images in your web browser, just as I refrain from typing "child porn" into Google for fear of what I might get.
When making arguments for the removal or linking of the pictures, apply the same argument to all pictures where there may be objections and ask yourself, "If we do it for these pictures, why not those ones also?". Morally objectionable pictures have not been removed or linked to on more popular pages and the same should be true here. Gerard Foley 19:09, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Mmmm hmmm. Censorship won't do. But it is not censorship. Note that anyone that wants to view the pictures could. We wouldn't be stopping them. One extra click they are there. It is in the article, it just isn't visible right away. No censorship here. And the advantage here is that they can do it knowing the risks involved eg legality.
I refrain from typing child porn in too, but If I wanted to find a general overview of pedophilia, I wouldn't expect to see a picture of child porn there.
Yup, alot of people could find it traumatising, offensive whatever...some *eyebrows raised* might enjoy it. But since we want to be NPOV lets not take a view either way to its status. Leave that up to the readers. Let them choose.
And yes, there is a community standard "no censorship for minors", but there is also one titled "Wiki is not an experiment in anarchy"-therin it says speech is non unregulated in Wiki. But we needn't take recourse to arguing between the many and conflicting guidelines. It isn't censorship. Its giving a choice.
And just because it is not yet established practice, doesn't mean we can't be among the first to use it. Wiki is constantly evolving, it is not set in stone. Dreadful would be the day it was. AlwaysNever 06:42, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
It's nice to have choice, but why give a choice on this article when there is no choice on the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy article? Those images are highly offensive, yet are still in the article, so what's different here? Gerard Foley 14:36, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
{{linkimage|Naziswastika.svg}}
Yes Kotra well said. No-one is trying to enforce the law. NOTE WELL: look at my suggestion for legality issues above. If practible, country specific hiding would give viewers discretion. It is still available and they can click it if they want. Ergo, (latin words are sooo cool :P)it is not enforcing the law. They can break the law if they like; I don't care. They can do it standing on stilts screaming "the law is nonsense on stilts" for all I care, because I don't. It isn't my place to care. But forcing people to break the law by I do care about
It would not babysit peoples minds. They can do what they like, they can click on it, whatever. Imagine little kids: they can eat chocolate ice-cream to death if they want to- I would be a negligant babysitter indeed :P. Placing the picture on the top is babysiter behaviour. It is like sitting on top of a metaphorical child, stuffing brusselsprouts in their mouth. "Eat, Eat damn you! You have to be free to see these pictures! If you have freedom to see a picture, you need freedom not see the picture too. Otherwise notions of freedom of speech are a meaningless nonsense. AND it is important they aren't. "Society has made you free to see these pictures, NOW LOOK DAMMIT!"You say stradling the person, thrusting the picture in their face.
And, it is culturally chauvinist-by forcing people to see, you are not tolerant of individual differences. By not giving a choice, you say, there are many different viewpoints in the world, but hey, my one is the best. And Kotra makes an excellent point, it is also legalistically chauvinistic.
And before anyone says, "OH but they a free as a bird not to type in lolicon", that is a flawed argument. Like I and others have said before, that's paradoxical. If you don't know already what lolicon is, (This is a bleedin' encyclopedia, you know :P), how can make a choice not to see the picture? AlwaysNever 04:58, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
While it's a laudable attempt at resolving the issue, changing one's CSS file to self-censor the images is not a realistic solution. The reader doesn't know they can censor these particular images until they view this talk page (who reads the talk page before the article itself?). And even if the notice template was put at the top of the Lolicon article itself (god forbid), many viewers will still not understand the process needed to change their CSS file. - kotra 06:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
For the moment, can anyone give me some more advice on how to do this? Dammit, everytime I log on and press on the watchlist the pic loads up. I donwannasee. And I can't review the article w/o seeing the dildo pic. How do you reroute the cache?! No friggin clue. AlwaysNever 07:04, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
What's monobook? I've used notebook to alter CSS files, but not familiar with monobook..same thing is it? Or where can it be found? Yah, I think this CSS edit thing may be good for editors to avoid seeing it every time, but not for normal viewers. Same reasons stated above.
AlwaysNever
07:12, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Will do research on New Zealand. According to Wiki Child pornography any depiction seen to promote pedophilia is banned. That includes cartoons. It may be out of date, not sure on that count. Will follow up. AlwaysNever 07:18, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
The following claims are clearly OR: "The Act however doesn't seem to include works of art such as manga if they do not appear to look like a photograph." " Case law, notably the Supreme Court decision in R. v. Sharpe, interprets the statute to include purely fictional material even when no real children were involved in its production." Hipocrite - «Talk» 07:06, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Please move all discussion about the linking, hiding or censorship of the images to Wikipedia talk:Censorship. Thank you Gerard Foley 16:52, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Gerard, it seems (from what you say anyway) that you don't group linking or hiding in the same category as censorship either. Lining or hiding don't belong in that forum for that reason. Disagree? In order to refute my claim that it isn't censorship have to furnish me with particular reasons why you consider them censorship. <3 AlwaysNever 04:50, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Citation from "the Beat" is not a reliable source. I understand from the blog entry that Edmonton Journal has this information. Please cite directly from this article. As it stands the citation is unreliable. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources under online sources for information as to why. Ta. AlwaysNever 07:05, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Having read the discussion here, I support putting the images on a sub-page, with prominent links from this article.
Above by Johntex\ talk 01:43, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Do we need to list these imageboards? We already include two examples. If we do list the imageboards then perhaps we don't need the examples. Either way, it seems unnecesary to have both. - Will Beback 23:35, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
The tame pictures and descriptions in this article are not suffice to illustrate lolikon. Since none of the references provide any further enlightenment, and the pictures already on this article are hardly even loli, I've readded not4chan and renchan. Those links have been here for ages and were not just suddenly added now. 24.224.153.40 22:03, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
If the current pictures do not illustrate Lolicon then let's remove them. As for the imageboards, in addition to being forums they also are simply compendiums of copyrighted material which are all apparently posted with without the copyright holders' permission.
Can we find a site that does not violate copyrights? - Will Beback 02:20, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
The links to the imageboards are revelent to the article. As mentioned, imageboards itself cannot violate copyrights. It's what is posted that can. Similarly, the article P2P shares a similar situation and they link to p2p websites. Are we here to inform readers or what? -- 24.184.24.134 03:33, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Then what about Mininova? Bittorrent? Adding one relevent link is far from turning the article to a 'link farm'. -- 24.184.24.134 05:21, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I am really on the fence about Renchan. It does seem to be more than just an imageboard. I do not know about the others, but it has forums and others things that lead me to believe it is about more than posting porn. kotepho 06:04, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm objecting to the removal of Renchan due to copyright violations. There are numerous wikipedia articles which violates it, but mostly the controversial are the ones that gets contested. Over at Lion King, the article links to lionking.org. Do we assume Disney gave the webmaster permission to use all the images/sounds/videos hosted on the website? Over at Pornography, they linked to Eonsex, which is basically the same as an imageboard -> read the term of use. I can find many more examples, if you wish. Why the double standard? Where's the uproar? -- 24.184.24.134 06:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
But Renchan, a lolicon community/gallery, was not given exception over lionking.org because? Renchan.org(fan site) has as much to do with the lolicon article as lionking.org (fansite) as to do with the Lion King article. -- 24.184.24.134 11:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
<comments redacted by admin>
They do not provide a unique resource (e.g. convenience is not uniqueness) as these images can be widely found elsewhere. There is no reason to link them. - brenneman {T} {L} 12:46, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
My reading of
Wikipedia:External links suggests that the ext. links should be kept.
12:41, 18 March 2006 (UTC) —This unsigned comment was added by Sam Spade ( talk • contribs) .
Requesting an editor to add back not4chan.org link. I cannot as the page is under protection. -- Jqiz 03:08, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Comparisons to other articles aside (because we're not shooting for the lowest common denominator here) I spent considerable time examining the contents of these links before I removed them. The overwhelming preponderance of activity is swapping images or discussion about where to source further images. Subject matter aside, this is not diferent from any other external link examination, and any encyclopedic content provided by these sites is minute. - brenneman {L} 03:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
We currently have two fair use images on the same page. Thus clearly one of these is not fair use, and is instead a copyright violation. In the event of copyright questions, all issues are to be removed before the image is re-added, as noted in the
blocking policy.
brenneman
{T}
{L}
12:26, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
(moved up by brenneman {T} {L} 12:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC))
I think Brenneman is just making stuff up. I've never heard of this supposed "can't have two fair-use images on one page" policy. -- Cyde Weys 07:14, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I've removed this again. Please please do not re-add images whose fair-use status has been disputed until consensus is achieved. - brenneman {L} 07:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
brenneman {L} 14:10, 22 March 2006 (UTC)