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Archive 1 |
Do any of you know the wing loading for P-80. It would be good if it's P-80A.
Thank You.
The P-80 seems to appear in a new video game, Fallout 3, on a destroyed aircraft carrier. The game takes place hundreds of years after world war III has come and gone in a world where America never left the sterotypical culture of the 50s, largely in the irridated ruins on Washington D.C. The largest, most prosperus settlement in the game is known as Rivet City, and is in fact a beached and broken aircraft carrier, and if you go up on deck, what appears to be P-80s are everywhere. Just thought I'd add the refrence if anyone here cares to mention it in the article, since as you can probably tell from this post I'm not the best person to be editing actual aritcles HA! Lich —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.235.153.251 ( talk) 20:02, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
The original version of this article is below:
Lockheed Chief Pilot Milo Garrett Burcham, age 41, was killed at 5:11 PM on Friday, 10/20/1944 while flying the second production prototype YP-80 aircraft. He took off from Lockheed Air Terminial (now the Pasadena/Burbank airport), flamed out on take off and crashed into a gravel pit in North Hollwood. He purposely directed his aircraft away from populated areas in an effort to bring it down away from houses. My Uncle, the late Gene Gerow, a TWA check pilot in Connies, said he was on the ramp that day, and let Milo take off before him. Gene may have been one of the last people to talk to Milo in this world.
As it says in the Book of John, "Man hath no greater love than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."
(Notes by Mike Gerow, San Diego, CA)
In what units should thrust be written? In units of mass (e.g. kg or lb) or in units of force (e.g kN or lbf). I am a bit confused because of the pound-force. Best regards. -- XJamRastafire 03:08, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)~
As kg and lb
I prefer to list thrust in lb and kN rather than in kilograms. It seems more appropriate. -- ArgentLA 23 Dec 2004
I've put the dimensions in a new table at the bottom of the page, with both the XP-80 and the P-80A's dimensions, for comparison. (Both the old and new tables are at User:Logawi/P-80 dimensions temp.) This isn't standard, but it's useful to see how the sizes of the two versions compared. The change of engine prompted a significant redesign of the aircraft. I think it might also be instructive to include dimensions for the T-33 and/or F-94, although I don't plan on doing that right now. Logawi 21:18, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
maru (talk) contribs 00:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Trekphiler 11:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
The timeline became a bit convoluted in the telling of who was killed flying what and when. My rewrite tried to simplify that and restore the chronology, also reducing the number of dangling short phrases. There were a few minor inaccuracies, also corrected. Most of the material seems to have come from Joe Baugher, a good source, but Baugher got his material (some of it word for word) from Dorr. So I went to Dorr for reference during the re-write.--Buckboard 14:45, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
More realistic specifications about p 80 (which wasn't faster than Messerschmitt 262) at site: http://www.aviation-history.com/lockheed/p80.html
You can read about post war tests in USA which confirm that fact at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262 Part titled: Postwar evaluation, history and design influence
The article says the P-80R was a modified prototype. IIRC, she was virtually hand-built, with features that would never appear (& weren't intended for) series aircraft, including a J73; again, IIRC, she was more like an F-94 prototype. Can anybody confirm? Include it? Trekphiler 10:59, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I believe this article http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/it/1993/2/1993_2_44.shtml describes the 180 day contract and delivery of the first P-80 better than the description in this article. The time was a bit longer to the first flight than is stated here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.33.99.141 ( talk) 17:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not by any means expert, but from what I've read, the pos of the 262's jetpods was at least partly due to aerodynamic considerations of flow into the inlets. (Recall, they didn't have the fancy splitters & such common now.) Trekphiler 16:56, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
One P-80 was loaned to Rolls-Royce who were developing their Nene at the time. IIRC, it was based at Hucclecote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.40.251.46 ( talk) 22:35, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Did (do) the tiptanks affect the wingtip vortices generated at all? Does the change in position (tip to underslung)? TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 06:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
British Jet Aircraft data which was sent as a gift to the USA during WW2 is the primary reason that the P80 was able to be designed so fast and enabled the USA to 'catch up' with the German AND BRITISH (not mentioned at all) lead over the USA in this area.
The article implies that it was USA 'excellence' alone, and Kelly Johnson/Lockheed who 'caught up' with the Germans in a very short time, with data that it took the Germans years to obtain.
I think the article should mention that the UK gave ALL of its data on Jet AIrcraft to the USA during WW2, and THIS allowed the USA to 'catch up', with the lead that Germany AND BRITAIN, had over them.
To not mention this is a distortion of history.
80.229.17.248 ( talk) 04:27, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
This is a proposed mention of the obscure XF-90 which many aviation writers have noted as bearing a family resemblence to the Shooting Star as a follow-on if not a proper derivative design. It is not fair to call the XF-90 a derivative, but it pretty obviously shows that the F-80 was a starting point for the XF-90 and is not an unrelated design even if it did not share any parts, much more clear than the F-100 was related as a follow-on to the F-86. The F-104 was also based on fighter pilot input from the Korean War. North American and Republic fielded successful swept wing trans and supersonic fighters (F-86, F-100, F-84F) while the XF-90 was a dead end before the F-104 was introduced. Redhanker ( talk) 22:04, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
Unlike jets such as the Grumman F-9 Cougar and the Republic F-84F Thunderstreak which were based on straight-wing jets, the F-80 was never developed into a swept wing variant. However the final 1947 layout of Lockheed's next Lockheed XF-90 emerged reflecting experience with the F-80 adapted for near supersonic flight. [1] It retained air intakes forward of a low-mounted wing with wingtip fuel tanks, but with a sharply pointed nosed and a swept wing. Designed as a penetration fighter to escort bombers and perform ground attack, it could exceed the speed of sound in test flights but it never saw production [2]
http://www.vectorsite.net/avf104_1.html
References
According to the TV documentary 'Aircraft that never flew' (episode about the L-133), (X?)P80s were sent to Italy (and used) in the dying days of WW2 in an attempt to shoot down Luftwaffe Arado Ar-234s used in their recon role. I'm not going to add that to the article without further confirmation, as it's the 1st time I've heard of it (and it might just be typical TV hype). Anyone else know anything about this? 1812ahill ( talk) 11:15, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Is there any chance this aircraft would've been used in the planned invasion of Japan in November, 1945 and March, 1946? 71.94.221.133 ( talk) 02:57, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
I recognize it's generally accepted the P-80 was a response, but the 262 hadn't been encountered yet AFAIK. Can we source it was a direct response? I don't demand it be sourced, just asking, can it be? If so, I'll shut up. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 07:31, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
I can easily believe that the P-80 was in part driven by the ME-262. What I have trouble understanding is how Kelly Johnson could or would have fielded a straight-winged P-80 fighter after he had had a good look at the 262. And we can safely assume he got more than a good look at the 262 during the war, well prior to 1943. This is Kelly Johnson we're talking about. He lived and breathed on the bleeding edge of aerospace. Why in the world would he have settled for a straight wing? I mean, the whole thing took 163 days from design to delivery. At that compressed rate, it seems like he would have taken a few more days or weeks to add the swept wings. I will never understand this, and I've been following the Skunk Works pretty much forever. It's hard to imagine that the man who built the SR-71 would have fielded a fighter that was, by almost all accounts, obsolete upon delivery. That's the confusing part of this plane's story for me. I can't prove he had seen the 262, but if he didn't by 1943, he was one of the few connected people who didn't. Cheers. 73.6.96.168 ( talk) 20:00, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
Something I ran across on YouTube, a TV documentary about the Lockheed L-133 that gives a bit more background and alleges that the P-80 was partially based on that never-built design (also by Kelly). Not sure if this is worth including in the article as part of the history. 150.148.0.65 ( talk) 00:27, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian ( talk) 12:08, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star → Lockheed F-80 Shooting Star – WP:COMMONNAME. The Shooting Star was known as "P-80" from 1945 through 1948, then "F-80" from June 11, 1948 through the end of its service - a much longer period, including its defining service in Korea. The F-82, F-84 and F-86 all started their service with "P-for Pursuit" designations that were changed in 1948 to "F-for-Fighter", but have their pages here at the F designations for the same reasons stated above; there's no reason for the Shooting Star to be otherwise. The Bushranger One ping only 23:35, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
First, it seems as though there ought to be some mention of the US P-59 Airacomet program, as background at least. This article seems to infer that the P-80 was the first US-designed jet fighter, while at best it was the first SUCCESSFUL US jet fighter. Second, it claims that the P-80 was the first fighter to incorporate its engine inside the fuselage...the P-59 had fuselage mounted engine. I know it says "the first operational" jet fighter to use fuselage-mounted engines, but I disagree...the P-59 was an operational fighter, just not combat rated. Even if one chooses to interpret "operational", it still ought to mention the P-59, at very least. I know that the introduction to the P-59 article clearly states that it was the first jet fighter to have engines buried in the fuselage, which comes across as contradictory unless one happens to take note of the single word "operational". The way the article is written, a reader will interpret it that the P-80 was the first jet fighter designed by the US, and the first to have engines in the fuselage. Most people won't notice the significance of "first operational" fighter, unless they are given some context. As it is, unless one happens to read the whole article and then decide to click on the link to "P-59 Airacomet" in the "see also" section, they will be utterly unaware of the P-59, which taught the US important lessons, if nothing else. .45Colt 08:24, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
I have added in a section on the XP-59B in the main article, however I will note here there are some uncertainly in the sources about the exact relationship between the XP-59B and the XP-80. All the sources agree that in late 1942 - early 1943, preliminary production drawings of the XP-59B were transferred from Bell to Lockheed, and elements of the XP-59B's design ended up in the XP-80. Sources seem to conflict as to the exact reasoning behind this action, with some stating Lockheed was awarded a contract to design the XP-59B and others implying this was just a transfer of documents not associated with any design contract. There is also some uncertainly as to exactly how direct the relationships between the XP-59B and the XP-80 is, with some sources stating or at least implying the XP-80 was a direct continuation of the XP-59B's design (technically making the P-80 a variant of the P-59), and other stating Bell design was just extremely influential. I have done the best I can to present the most reasonable narrative I could identify, but more/better sources would be needed for something more definitive. Voteins ( talk) 08:00, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This
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Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Tony Levier can be wiki-linked Scoop100 ( talk) 11:44, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Do any of you know the wing loading for P-80. It would be good if it's P-80A.
Thank You.
The P-80 seems to appear in a new video game, Fallout 3, on a destroyed aircraft carrier. The game takes place hundreds of years after world war III has come and gone in a world where America never left the sterotypical culture of the 50s, largely in the irridated ruins on Washington D.C. The largest, most prosperus settlement in the game is known as Rivet City, and is in fact a beached and broken aircraft carrier, and if you go up on deck, what appears to be P-80s are everywhere. Just thought I'd add the refrence if anyone here cares to mention it in the article, since as you can probably tell from this post I'm not the best person to be editing actual aritcles HA! Lich —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.235.153.251 ( talk) 20:02, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
The original version of this article is below:
Lockheed Chief Pilot Milo Garrett Burcham, age 41, was killed at 5:11 PM on Friday, 10/20/1944 while flying the second production prototype YP-80 aircraft. He took off from Lockheed Air Terminial (now the Pasadena/Burbank airport), flamed out on take off and crashed into a gravel pit in North Hollwood. He purposely directed his aircraft away from populated areas in an effort to bring it down away from houses. My Uncle, the late Gene Gerow, a TWA check pilot in Connies, said he was on the ramp that day, and let Milo take off before him. Gene may have been one of the last people to talk to Milo in this world.
As it says in the Book of John, "Man hath no greater love than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."
(Notes by Mike Gerow, San Diego, CA)
In what units should thrust be written? In units of mass (e.g. kg or lb) or in units of force (e.g kN or lbf). I am a bit confused because of the pound-force. Best regards. -- XJamRastafire 03:08, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)~
As kg and lb
I prefer to list thrust in lb and kN rather than in kilograms. It seems more appropriate. -- ArgentLA 23 Dec 2004
I've put the dimensions in a new table at the bottom of the page, with both the XP-80 and the P-80A's dimensions, for comparison. (Both the old and new tables are at User:Logawi/P-80 dimensions temp.) This isn't standard, but it's useful to see how the sizes of the two versions compared. The change of engine prompted a significant redesign of the aircraft. I think it might also be instructive to include dimensions for the T-33 and/or F-94, although I don't plan on doing that right now. Logawi 21:18, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
maru (talk) contribs 00:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Trekphiler 11:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
The timeline became a bit convoluted in the telling of who was killed flying what and when. My rewrite tried to simplify that and restore the chronology, also reducing the number of dangling short phrases. There were a few minor inaccuracies, also corrected. Most of the material seems to have come from Joe Baugher, a good source, but Baugher got his material (some of it word for word) from Dorr. So I went to Dorr for reference during the re-write.--Buckboard 14:45, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
More realistic specifications about p 80 (which wasn't faster than Messerschmitt 262) at site: http://www.aviation-history.com/lockheed/p80.html
You can read about post war tests in USA which confirm that fact at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262 Part titled: Postwar evaluation, history and design influence
The article says the P-80R was a modified prototype. IIRC, she was virtually hand-built, with features that would never appear (& weren't intended for) series aircraft, including a J73; again, IIRC, she was more like an F-94 prototype. Can anybody confirm? Include it? Trekphiler 10:59, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I believe this article http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/it/1993/2/1993_2_44.shtml describes the 180 day contract and delivery of the first P-80 better than the description in this article. The time was a bit longer to the first flight than is stated here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.33.99.141 ( talk) 17:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not by any means expert, but from what I've read, the pos of the 262's jetpods was at least partly due to aerodynamic considerations of flow into the inlets. (Recall, they didn't have the fancy splitters & such common now.) Trekphiler 16:56, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
One P-80 was loaned to Rolls-Royce who were developing their Nene at the time. IIRC, it was based at Hucclecote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.40.251.46 ( talk) 22:35, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Did (do) the tiptanks affect the wingtip vortices generated at all? Does the change in position (tip to underslung)? TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 06:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
British Jet Aircraft data which was sent as a gift to the USA during WW2 is the primary reason that the P80 was able to be designed so fast and enabled the USA to 'catch up' with the German AND BRITISH (not mentioned at all) lead over the USA in this area.
The article implies that it was USA 'excellence' alone, and Kelly Johnson/Lockheed who 'caught up' with the Germans in a very short time, with data that it took the Germans years to obtain.
I think the article should mention that the UK gave ALL of its data on Jet AIrcraft to the USA during WW2, and THIS allowed the USA to 'catch up', with the lead that Germany AND BRITAIN, had over them.
To not mention this is a distortion of history.
80.229.17.248 ( talk) 04:27, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
This is a proposed mention of the obscure XF-90 which many aviation writers have noted as bearing a family resemblence to the Shooting Star as a follow-on if not a proper derivative design. It is not fair to call the XF-90 a derivative, but it pretty obviously shows that the F-80 was a starting point for the XF-90 and is not an unrelated design even if it did not share any parts, much more clear than the F-100 was related as a follow-on to the F-86. The F-104 was also based on fighter pilot input from the Korean War. North American and Republic fielded successful swept wing trans and supersonic fighters (F-86, F-100, F-84F) while the XF-90 was a dead end before the F-104 was introduced. Redhanker ( talk) 22:04, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
Unlike jets such as the Grumman F-9 Cougar and the Republic F-84F Thunderstreak which were based on straight-wing jets, the F-80 was never developed into a swept wing variant. However the final 1947 layout of Lockheed's next Lockheed XF-90 emerged reflecting experience with the F-80 adapted for near supersonic flight. [1] It retained air intakes forward of a low-mounted wing with wingtip fuel tanks, but with a sharply pointed nosed and a swept wing. Designed as a penetration fighter to escort bombers and perform ground attack, it could exceed the speed of sound in test flights but it never saw production [2]
http://www.vectorsite.net/avf104_1.html
References
According to the TV documentary 'Aircraft that never flew' (episode about the L-133), (X?)P80s were sent to Italy (and used) in the dying days of WW2 in an attempt to shoot down Luftwaffe Arado Ar-234s used in their recon role. I'm not going to add that to the article without further confirmation, as it's the 1st time I've heard of it (and it might just be typical TV hype). Anyone else know anything about this? 1812ahill ( talk) 11:15, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Is there any chance this aircraft would've been used in the planned invasion of Japan in November, 1945 and March, 1946? 71.94.221.133 ( talk) 02:57, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
I recognize it's generally accepted the P-80 was a response, but the 262 hadn't been encountered yet AFAIK. Can we source it was a direct response? I don't demand it be sourced, just asking, can it be? If so, I'll shut up. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 07:31, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
I can easily believe that the P-80 was in part driven by the ME-262. What I have trouble understanding is how Kelly Johnson could or would have fielded a straight-winged P-80 fighter after he had had a good look at the 262. And we can safely assume he got more than a good look at the 262 during the war, well prior to 1943. This is Kelly Johnson we're talking about. He lived and breathed on the bleeding edge of aerospace. Why in the world would he have settled for a straight wing? I mean, the whole thing took 163 days from design to delivery. At that compressed rate, it seems like he would have taken a few more days or weeks to add the swept wings. I will never understand this, and I've been following the Skunk Works pretty much forever. It's hard to imagine that the man who built the SR-71 would have fielded a fighter that was, by almost all accounts, obsolete upon delivery. That's the confusing part of this plane's story for me. I can't prove he had seen the 262, but if he didn't by 1943, he was one of the few connected people who didn't. Cheers. 73.6.96.168 ( talk) 20:00, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
Something I ran across on YouTube, a TV documentary about the Lockheed L-133 that gives a bit more background and alleges that the P-80 was partially based on that never-built design (also by Kelly). Not sure if this is worth including in the article as part of the history. 150.148.0.65 ( talk) 00:27, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian ( talk) 12:08, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star → Lockheed F-80 Shooting Star – WP:COMMONNAME. The Shooting Star was known as "P-80" from 1945 through 1948, then "F-80" from June 11, 1948 through the end of its service - a much longer period, including its defining service in Korea. The F-82, F-84 and F-86 all started their service with "P-for Pursuit" designations that were changed in 1948 to "F-for-Fighter", but have their pages here at the F designations for the same reasons stated above; there's no reason for the Shooting Star to be otherwise. The Bushranger One ping only 23:35, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
First, it seems as though there ought to be some mention of the US P-59 Airacomet program, as background at least. This article seems to infer that the P-80 was the first US-designed jet fighter, while at best it was the first SUCCESSFUL US jet fighter. Second, it claims that the P-80 was the first fighter to incorporate its engine inside the fuselage...the P-59 had fuselage mounted engine. I know it says "the first operational" jet fighter to use fuselage-mounted engines, but I disagree...the P-59 was an operational fighter, just not combat rated. Even if one chooses to interpret "operational", it still ought to mention the P-59, at very least. I know that the introduction to the P-59 article clearly states that it was the first jet fighter to have engines buried in the fuselage, which comes across as contradictory unless one happens to take note of the single word "operational". The way the article is written, a reader will interpret it that the P-80 was the first jet fighter designed by the US, and the first to have engines in the fuselage. Most people won't notice the significance of "first operational" fighter, unless they are given some context. As it is, unless one happens to read the whole article and then decide to click on the link to "P-59 Airacomet" in the "see also" section, they will be utterly unaware of the P-59, which taught the US important lessons, if nothing else. .45Colt 08:24, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
I have added in a section on the XP-59B in the main article, however I will note here there are some uncertainly in the sources about the exact relationship between the XP-59B and the XP-80. All the sources agree that in late 1942 - early 1943, preliminary production drawings of the XP-59B were transferred from Bell to Lockheed, and elements of the XP-59B's design ended up in the XP-80. Sources seem to conflict as to the exact reasoning behind this action, with some stating Lockheed was awarded a contract to design the XP-59B and others implying this was just a transfer of documents not associated with any design contract. There is also some uncertainly as to exactly how direct the relationships between the XP-59B and the XP-80 is, with some sources stating or at least implying the XP-80 was a direct continuation of the XP-59B's design (technically making the P-80 a variant of the P-59), and other stating Bell design was just extremely influential. I have done the best I can to present the most reasonable narrative I could identify, but more/better sources would be needed for something more definitive. Voteins ( talk) 08:00, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Tony Levier can be wiki-linked Scoop100 ( talk) 11:44, 24 August 2020 (UTC)