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archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
current talk page.
History
The History section needs to be re-written as a prose narrative rather than a chronological list. I've been putting off the re-write in the hopes that someone would or could provide sources for the list or parts of it. Can anyone find support, other than personal web sites, that can be cited? Maybe the job will be easier if we compress the long list of big floods into a single sentence; it should be relatively easy to support a claim of frequent floods (one every seven years on average, or something like that) and claims about the 1936 floods and other specific big floods. I'm not sure how much of the general pre-history is useful. Maybe it could be compressed into a sentence or two. Any thoughts?
Finetooth00:29, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I have re-written the History section as a prose narrative. To retain as much of the good work of the authors who preceded me, I re-arranged the material by century and created a separate flood subsection. I moved the History section above the Geography and climate section and just below the lead. Much remains to be done. The 19th century has gotten short shrift and deserves more detail. Everything before the 18th century has gotten nothing at all; people apparently inhabited the area as early as 8,000 BCE or so. Something, a couple or three sentences, might be said about those earlier centuries if we can find reliable sources. Speaking of sources, I supplied a few, but the article still includes unsourced claims that might be challenged. The lead must be re-written to reflect the new content. We need a section on infrastructure, and maybe the highway stuff belongs there rather than in Geography. A photo of the city skyline from the Lockport side of the river would show the levee as well as the taller buildings, I think. Maybe someone who lives in the area could have a whack at it and upload a Lock Haven skyline photo to the Wikimedia Commons. Such a photo could be placed in the city infobox. See
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, for example.
Finetooth03:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
The article is coming along. The 20th century is now the thin one. It's got nothing yet about street cars, for example. Cursory research reveals the existence of the Susquehanna Traction Company (formerly the Lock Haven Traction Company) that leased and operated 12 cars on 5.5 miles of electric railway connecting Lock Haven, Flemington, and Mill Hall in 1908. The city also had a passenger train station and passenger service through at least the 1950s. It also had commercial airline flights to and from its airport. Does anybody have suggestions for material about these modes of transportation in and around the city? Or details about the other 20th century industries such as the silk mills, the dye works, and the wire mill? Also, the article still needs photos, maybe of one or more of the grander houses. This thought reminds me to say thanks to Ruhrfisch for the Big Runaway map; I shouted "yes" when I came across it.
Finetooth04:39, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
=========
I'm no expert, just an interested reader. Their seems to be two treaties of Fort Stanwix. One in 1768 by the British and one in 1784 by the United States post independence. The first treaty is footnoted and cross-referenced to the wiki article "Treaty at Fort Stanwix". However, the second has no reference and is not mentioned in the Wiki article. FYI, the Jersey Shore article also makes reference to the Treaty at Fort Stanwix, but it appears to be only to the later treaty. Do they two treaties go by the same name?
X17bc8 (
talk)
15:00, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for bringing this up. You are quite right; there were two Fort Stanwix treaties. I had wikilinked and sourced the first but not the second in paragraph 2 of the "Eighteenth century" section. I've now linked the second instance, and I'll track down a reliable outside source for the claim and add a separate footnote. After I've done that, I'll take a look at the Jersey Shore article. I might not get to these two things until tomorrow (Monday).
Finetooth (
talk)
02:35, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
I found and added a source for the claim, which I modified slightly to match what the source says. The second Fort Stanwix treaty transferred most but not quite all of the remaining Indian land within today's state borders to Pennsylvania. A small triangle of land near Erie came along later. Thanks again for the nudge. I have not yet looked at the Jersey Shore article for Fort Stanwix material. Tomorrow.
Finetooth (
talk)
05:16, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
It's now Monday, and I'm not seeing the reference to the Fort Stanwix treaty in the
Jersey Shore article. If you can give me more specifics, I'd be happy to take another look.
Finetooth (
talk)
17:11, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Lock Haven review
link check All I could get done tonight was a link check. Most of them are fine. Found some redirects. Not a big deal if you don't change them.
Dincher (
talk)
00:16, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Since all Munsee were Lenape, I linked to Lenape. My source doesn't say the people in this group were Christian Munsee, and I would just be guessing if I assumed they were.
Finetooth (
talk)
04:05, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Overall it looks pretty good. Some sections are in need of expansion. Gov't stands out. I will give it a closer look, and blue pen edit later in the week. But all in all this is very nice. Good work.
Dincher (
talk)
00:16, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
One way or another, I have repaired all of these except I'm unsure about whether it should be Lenape or Christian Munsee. I think the former, but I need to double-check. The dab finder tool now finds no dabs in the article. However, the link checker finds four dead links, which all apparently went dead in the last few hours. I'll try to sort these out tomorrow.
Finetooth (
talk)
02:56, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Sorry. Yes. Dab is short for "disambiguation". The handy trouble-saving dabfinder lives
here. Its cousin, the link checker lives
here. And another cousin, the alt-text viewer, lives
here. They are all used at FAC, but I've added links to them from my user page to run mostly during peer reviews but also to check my own pages from time-to-time.
Finetooth (
talk)
03:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
I decided to render the list of notable residents as straight prose, and that drew my attention to the fact that nothing in that entire section is sourced. This review is reminding me of how much I didn't know about Wikipedia two years ago.
Finetooth (
talk)
03:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for all the suggestions above. I needed to double-check to make sure I hadn't missed anything on the first go-round. I still need to expand the government section, and I think I can do that by adding something about state and federal representation.
Finetooth (
talk)
04:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Blue pen edit
Lead
A dike and levee, I know that in South Williamsport we always called it a dike and I assume that in Lock Haven it was called a dike as well, but wikipedia seems to refer to it as a levee and levee will elict fewer giggles. So I'd go with A levee, completed...
Magnolias in Pennsylvania? I've never seen one and it doesn't seem like they'd make it there. A quick look shows that they seem to be restricted to warmer climates. I could be wrong.
Good question that caused me to hunt. I found a couple of sources that confirm that Magnolia accuminata, the hardiest of the U.S. magnolias, thrives in Pennsylvania and as far north as Canada. See
here and
here.
Finetooth (
talk)
04:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
The picture of the log raft on Pine Creek is causing a hold up at the
Upper Pine Bottom State Park FAC.
Ruhrfisch is ironing out the details and they should be resolved soon.
Strike since at least the advent of written records. It can be safely assumed that the streams have pretty much always flooded. I don't think there's a stream that hasn't flooded.
Main stem Is stem the correct word? I am not into streams so I don't really know, but I've never heard the word stem being used in a situation like this.
It's correct, analogous to the trunk of a tree rather than a branch. In this case the main stem would mean everything from Northumberland, the confluence of the North and West branches, to the mouth of the river in Maryland. I wikilinked
main stem. Thanks for noticing this bit of river jargon.
Finetooth (
talk)
16:48, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Altoona and Williamsport should be replaced with Philly and Pittsburgh. Many more people know where Philly and Pittsburgh are as compared to Altoona and Williamsport.
The article looks pretty good. I'd move some prepositional phrases around. Too many sentences being with these. That's just personal preference. Overall, the article is excellent, and I believe ready for FAC.
Dincher (
talk)
22:25, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Thanks again for all of your suggestions and kind words. I believe I've fixed all of the things you've mentioned except for the open question about the log raft image and the prepositional phrases. I plan to tinker with the prose for other reasons such as starting 10 sentences in a row with "the", and I'll aim for varied sentence patterns and perhaps not so many sentences that start with "In 1872" and the like.
Finetooth (
talk)
19:25, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Mitch. Good to hear from you. It's been a while. I'll keep this suggestion in mind as we go forward. I'll probably stick with the Civil War Monument, though it might be a stretch to call it infrastructure.
Finetooth (
talk)
04:50, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
It's possible to squeeze in more illustrations, but I think adding even one more might create page clutter. My rule of thumb for a pleasing layout is to aim for one illustration per section. It's only a rule of thumb and not ironclad, and I don't follow it precisely, but it seems to work well for most situations.
Finetooth (
talk)
18:12, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
On second or third thought, I might move the Civil War monument into the government section and use the highway image in the "Infrastructure" section. The view must be to the east along North Jay Street as it approaches the river. Let me fiddle a bit.
Finetooth (
talk)
18:44, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
This page is an
archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
current talk page.
This page is an
archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
current talk page.
History
The History section needs to be re-written as a prose narrative rather than a chronological list. I've been putting off the re-write in the hopes that someone would or could provide sources for the list or parts of it. Can anyone find support, other than personal web sites, that can be cited? Maybe the job will be easier if we compress the long list of big floods into a single sentence; it should be relatively easy to support a claim of frequent floods (one every seven years on average, or something like that) and claims about the 1936 floods and other specific big floods. I'm not sure how much of the general pre-history is useful. Maybe it could be compressed into a sentence or two. Any thoughts?
Finetooth00:29, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I have re-written the History section as a prose narrative. To retain as much of the good work of the authors who preceded me, I re-arranged the material by century and created a separate flood subsection. I moved the History section above the Geography and climate section and just below the lead. Much remains to be done. The 19th century has gotten short shrift and deserves more detail. Everything before the 18th century has gotten nothing at all; people apparently inhabited the area as early as 8,000 BCE or so. Something, a couple or three sentences, might be said about those earlier centuries if we can find reliable sources. Speaking of sources, I supplied a few, but the article still includes unsourced claims that might be challenged. The lead must be re-written to reflect the new content. We need a section on infrastructure, and maybe the highway stuff belongs there rather than in Geography. A photo of the city skyline from the Lockport side of the river would show the levee as well as the taller buildings, I think. Maybe someone who lives in the area could have a whack at it and upload a Lock Haven skyline photo to the Wikimedia Commons. Such a photo could be placed in the city infobox. See
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, for example.
Finetooth03:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
The article is coming along. The 20th century is now the thin one. It's got nothing yet about street cars, for example. Cursory research reveals the existence of the Susquehanna Traction Company (formerly the Lock Haven Traction Company) that leased and operated 12 cars on 5.5 miles of electric railway connecting Lock Haven, Flemington, and Mill Hall in 1908. The city also had a passenger train station and passenger service through at least the 1950s. It also had commercial airline flights to and from its airport. Does anybody have suggestions for material about these modes of transportation in and around the city? Or details about the other 20th century industries such as the silk mills, the dye works, and the wire mill? Also, the article still needs photos, maybe of one or more of the grander houses. This thought reminds me to say thanks to Ruhrfisch for the Big Runaway map; I shouted "yes" when I came across it.
Finetooth04:39, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
=========
I'm no expert, just an interested reader. Their seems to be two treaties of Fort Stanwix. One in 1768 by the British and one in 1784 by the United States post independence. The first treaty is footnoted and cross-referenced to the wiki article "Treaty at Fort Stanwix". However, the second has no reference and is not mentioned in the Wiki article. FYI, the Jersey Shore article also makes reference to the Treaty at Fort Stanwix, but it appears to be only to the later treaty. Do they two treaties go by the same name?
X17bc8 (
talk)
15:00, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for bringing this up. You are quite right; there were two Fort Stanwix treaties. I had wikilinked and sourced the first but not the second in paragraph 2 of the "Eighteenth century" section. I've now linked the second instance, and I'll track down a reliable outside source for the claim and add a separate footnote. After I've done that, I'll take a look at the Jersey Shore article. I might not get to these two things until tomorrow (Monday).
Finetooth (
talk)
02:35, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
I found and added a source for the claim, which I modified slightly to match what the source says. The second Fort Stanwix treaty transferred most but not quite all of the remaining Indian land within today's state borders to Pennsylvania. A small triangle of land near Erie came along later. Thanks again for the nudge. I have not yet looked at the Jersey Shore article for Fort Stanwix material. Tomorrow.
Finetooth (
talk)
05:16, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
It's now Monday, and I'm not seeing the reference to the Fort Stanwix treaty in the
Jersey Shore article. If you can give me more specifics, I'd be happy to take another look.
Finetooth (
talk)
17:11, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Lock Haven review
link check All I could get done tonight was a link check. Most of them are fine. Found some redirects. Not a big deal if you don't change them.
Dincher (
talk)
00:16, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Since all Munsee were Lenape, I linked to Lenape. My source doesn't say the people in this group were Christian Munsee, and I would just be guessing if I assumed they were.
Finetooth (
talk)
04:05, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Overall it looks pretty good. Some sections are in need of expansion. Gov't stands out. I will give it a closer look, and blue pen edit later in the week. But all in all this is very nice. Good work.
Dincher (
talk)
00:16, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
One way or another, I have repaired all of these except I'm unsure about whether it should be Lenape or Christian Munsee. I think the former, but I need to double-check. The dab finder tool now finds no dabs in the article. However, the link checker finds four dead links, which all apparently went dead in the last few hours. I'll try to sort these out tomorrow.
Finetooth (
talk)
02:56, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Sorry. Yes. Dab is short for "disambiguation". The handy trouble-saving dabfinder lives
here. Its cousin, the link checker lives
here. And another cousin, the alt-text viewer, lives
here. They are all used at FAC, but I've added links to them from my user page to run mostly during peer reviews but also to check my own pages from time-to-time.
Finetooth (
talk)
03:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
I decided to render the list of notable residents as straight prose, and that drew my attention to the fact that nothing in that entire section is sourced. This review is reminding me of how much I didn't know about Wikipedia two years ago.
Finetooth (
talk)
03:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for all the suggestions above. I needed to double-check to make sure I hadn't missed anything on the first go-round. I still need to expand the government section, and I think I can do that by adding something about state and federal representation.
Finetooth (
talk)
04:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Blue pen edit
Lead
A dike and levee, I know that in South Williamsport we always called it a dike and I assume that in Lock Haven it was called a dike as well, but wikipedia seems to refer to it as a levee and levee will elict fewer giggles. So I'd go with A levee, completed...
Magnolias in Pennsylvania? I've never seen one and it doesn't seem like they'd make it there. A quick look shows that they seem to be restricted to warmer climates. I could be wrong.
Good question that caused me to hunt. I found a couple of sources that confirm that Magnolia accuminata, the hardiest of the U.S. magnolias, thrives in Pennsylvania and as far north as Canada. See
here and
here.
Finetooth (
talk)
04:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
The picture of the log raft on Pine Creek is causing a hold up at the
Upper Pine Bottom State Park FAC.
Ruhrfisch is ironing out the details and they should be resolved soon.
Strike since at least the advent of written records. It can be safely assumed that the streams have pretty much always flooded. I don't think there's a stream that hasn't flooded.
Main stem Is stem the correct word? I am not into streams so I don't really know, but I've never heard the word stem being used in a situation like this.
It's correct, analogous to the trunk of a tree rather than a branch. In this case the main stem would mean everything from Northumberland, the confluence of the North and West branches, to the mouth of the river in Maryland. I wikilinked
main stem. Thanks for noticing this bit of river jargon.
Finetooth (
talk)
16:48, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Altoona and Williamsport should be replaced with Philly and Pittsburgh. Many more people know where Philly and Pittsburgh are as compared to Altoona and Williamsport.
The article looks pretty good. I'd move some prepositional phrases around. Too many sentences being with these. That's just personal preference. Overall, the article is excellent, and I believe ready for FAC.
Dincher (
talk)
22:25, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Thanks again for all of your suggestions and kind words. I believe I've fixed all of the things you've mentioned except for the open question about the log raft image and the prepositional phrases. I plan to tinker with the prose for other reasons such as starting 10 sentences in a row with "the", and I'll aim for varied sentence patterns and perhaps not so many sentences that start with "In 1872" and the like.
Finetooth (
talk)
19:25, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Mitch. Good to hear from you. It's been a while. I'll keep this suggestion in mind as we go forward. I'll probably stick with the Civil War Monument, though it might be a stretch to call it infrastructure.
Finetooth (
talk)
04:50, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
It's possible to squeeze in more illustrations, but I think adding even one more might create page clutter. My rule of thumb for a pleasing layout is to aim for one illustration per section. It's only a rule of thumb and not ironclad, and I don't follow it precisely, but it seems to work well for most situations.
Finetooth (
talk)
18:12, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
On second or third thought, I might move the Civil War monument into the government section and use the highway image in the "Infrastructure" section. The view must be to the east along North Jay Street as it approaches the river. Let me fiddle a bit.
Finetooth (
talk)
18:44, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
This page is an
archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
current talk page.