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[yánito] as a pronunciation is not IPA--[y] in IPA represents German written ü, French written u, not a sound found in either Spanish or English. Removing it. 89.62.105.171 22:00, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Have reverted the IPA pronunciation to what it was previously (IPA: [jɑˈnito] or [ʒɑˈnito]). I'm not sure when it got vandalised to "yánito" or whether the original IPA guide is any different/better than your one. Saluton 01:57, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Are you sure that creole is the right name for this? I'd call it code switching but IANALinguist. -- Error 01:18, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Similar to the spanglish in the US.--
Jondel 09:20, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
fat
I think the example given in this article of llanito is not llanito but as has been rightly said above, code switching. Real llanito is basically creole Spanish with no code switching to English but with many words which have english (or other) origin but are corrupted in form. There is no "but at the end of the day" or "im telling you"... A Gibraltarian should offer a more realistic example of llanito dialect to this page!.-- Cassius80 19:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Is this so? I'm not quite sure how llanito should be defined, but debating whether it includes code switching, or consists of everything aside from code switching seems dangerously close to original-research territory. Do note that some linguists have called llanito a code switching language - See [2] 87.127.73.65 02:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
The Spanish for at the end of the day is al fin y al cabo, isn't it? -- Error 00:46, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Yes, it is, but "a fin de cuentas" is an expression with an identical or very similar meaning.
-- Burgas00 12:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I have spent some time in Gibraltar, and have looked at various Gibraltar websites, and none of them spell it as Yanito. It's most probably a misspelling by outsiders.
Quiensabe 03:53 UTC 23 Jun 2005
Where is the Tunisian, Italian and Morrocan influence in Llanito? Can someone give me an example of it? Should llanito be classed as a language or even a dialect? As far as I can tell it is people who speak the Cadiz variant of the Andalusian dialect who also happen to know english and thus switch from one language to the other.-- Burgas00 12:51, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
While the basis of Llanito is indeed code-switching between English and Spanish, Llanito is unique in that it also incorporates words from Maltese and from northern Italian dialects (specifically Genoese - such as "marchapie" for pavement or "mesquin" for an unfortunate person, which derives from the Genoese "meschin" or Maltese "miskin"). It has been claimed that some Hebrew words have crept into the vernacular although I cannot provide evidence for this. There is, however, a Llanito phrase "haremos woh" (an expression of resignation, as in "what can we do?") and also "echar el woh" (to curse someone) which are said to have Hebrew origins. In essence while English-Spanish is the foundation of Llanito, it also brings in linguistic elements from the various communities (Genoese, Maltese, etc.) which historically fed into the Gibraltarian population pool. Den1977 17:46, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Den1977: You find a very complicated etymology of the word "Mesquin". Genoese, Maltese...? Dosent it just come from the Spanish word Mezquino (pronounced Mesquino in Andalusian) Mezquino in Spanish has many meaning, among them: unfortunate. It is one of many Spanish words of arabic origin (Miskeen). As for "Haremos woh" it sounds to me like another andalusian mispronounciation of an English word... probably "what". Marchapié is also a Spanish word of French origin (Marchepied) You can find all these words in the Real Academia de la Lengua Española. www.rae.es -- Burgas00 20:13, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Burgas00: It seems to me that you are trying your best to negate the fact that there are other linguistic elements that feed into Llanito besides Spanish (or "the Cadiz variant of the Andalusian dialect") or mispronounced English. I do not deny the extremely important role that Spanish plays in Llanito (Spanish, and as you rightly state, particularly Andalusian Spanish, lies without doubt at the very core of Llanito) but equally we cannot deny that its uniqueness, that which makes it more than simple code-swtiching between English and Spanish, or, as you would have it, more than the "andalusian mispronounciation of an English word" is the presence of at least some non-English and non-Spanish words in the lingo. The identification of Genoese/Maltese words is not a fabrication of mine, but has been the focus of work conducted recently by Professor Joseph Brincat from the University of Malta, who presented a paper on the subject at the University of Udine in which he pointed to the presence of Maltese and Genoese elements in Llanito. There are currently various other academic linguistic studies of Llanito underway (Anja Kellermann's book entitled "The New New English: Language, Politics & Identity in Gibraltar" has recently been published as one example). It would appear that the subject is attracting some well-deserved academic attention and we may be able to engage in a more informed debate once the findings of these various studies become available.
Thinking objectively, the notion that Maltese and Genoese (and indeed Hebrew) are present in Llanito should come as no surprise given the historic composition of the Gibraltarian population especially post-1704. It stands to reason, though admittedly it might be difficult to test scientifically, that certain Maltese/Genoese/Hebrew words and expressions have crept into the vernacular and are still in use today albeit perhaps in corrupted (perhaps even in anglicised or hispanicised) forms. Den1977 11:13, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
ofcourse, i would not be surprised if this influence existed, since quite a few gibraltarians have maltese origins. i think caruana is maltese surname... just wanted an example, thats all. not trying to negate any influence, it is just that the examples u gave were not convincing and i am generally interested in the subject. i agree with you that llanito is more than just code switching. the example, of llanito given in the article however does not sound like the llanito i have heard and seems to limit itself to codeswitching... -- Burgas00 14:48, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes it exists also in French: Mesquin.
To further complicate matters, it would appear that some words used in Llanito, e.g. "canilla" for "water tap" are terms used not in Spain but in Latin America. I wonder why this could be? There is no significant movement of people from Latin American countries to Gibraltar at any stage during the latter's demographic history, so I wonder where the link could originate? Den1977 10:57, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, many words in latin america derive from the dialects of spanish regions in which there was strong emigration to latin america. For example, the cuban word for bus "la guagua" comes from the canary islands, where it is also used. Andalusian is perhaps the strongest influence on the different latin american spanish languages. Are you sure that the word "canilla" is not used in the rest of Cadiz province? If this word is not used in other towns of the bay of algeciras i dont know its origin...Probably simply an anachronism. Burgas00
According to a friend of mine, born in Cadiz City and brought up in Sanlucar, canilla is either a tap or a stopcock. It is simply another of those wonderful Baetica Latin anachronisms that still survive in Andalusian Spanish but not in other Peninsular dialects (e.g. "Estar Arreci[d]o", being another one) Asterion 01:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Asterion that is what I thought. .. As for Guagua, it is not known whether the word originates in Canarias or in Cuba but considering that Canarians emigrated to Cuba rather than the other way round, one would imagine the word to be of Canarian origin. It is most likely, as you say, a Spanish mispronounciation of Waggon.-- Burgas00 17:24, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
http://www.etnografo.com/gibraltar_yanis%20de.htm
this site is good-- Burgas00 12:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Here are 2 words that somone might be able to find an origin for. I suspect they're Italian/Maltese: piciaso ; pastiso
And what about cuecaro? ;-) [a gibbo]
piciaso, pastiso cuécaro... What do these words mean? I have never heard them...-- Burgas00 23:22, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Cuecaro is Quaker Oats
Hi Burgas00, piciaso is a disaster, like when smoehting falls through e.g que piciaso = what a disaster/flop
Pastiso is a mess. e.g El cuarto lo tiene(s) hesho un pastiso! = Your room is a mess!
If anyone can find out where these words come from it could be interesting. [a gibbo]
Piciaso can come from Spanish to pifiar which means roughly the same thing. Many people mispronounce pifiar saying piciar. From Piciar to Piciado or Piciaso. But thats just a theory...
Pastiso is probably also Spanish. In Spain we have a similar expression with the word "pastizal". Pastizal --- pastizo...
Writing phonetically with the andalusian accent rather than with proper spelling makes it much harder to find the etymology of a particular word:-)
-- Cassius80 20:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Well these etymologies presented by Cassius seem right to me... still waiting for an example of a word which is of neither English nor Spanish origin. The claim that there are words of morrocan, genoese or maltese origin is begining to seem like a myth...-- Burgas00 11:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
You shouldn't be so eager to dismiss the theory as a myth. It is very difficult for any of us to be able to conduct a scientific corroboration of any of these words. Cassius makes a compelling argument above, but there is, as he himself concedes, as much guesswork there as there was with my original suggestions. The same goes for your earlier dismissal of the phrases "hechar el woh" (to curse) and "haremos woh" (an expression of resignation) as mispronounciations of the English "what" (I'm not convinced!). The 'myth', if it is one, cannot be debunked with other 'myths' and half-baked assumptions, however compelling the explanation may be.
The link between "pifiar" and "piciar" and "pastizal" and "pastiso" is, for me at least, a tenuous one at best. (The RAE definition of "pastizal" is "terreno de abundante pasto"!!!). Why do Gibraltarians use the word "marchapie" for pavement? (the closest I can find is the Spanish "marchapie", which is a "cabo pendiente a lo largo de las vergas, que sirve para sostener a la marinería que trabaja en ellas" (RAE definition) and the French "marchepied" which exists in a different context (it means "running board" or "footboard"). The proper noun "panissa" is clearly Genoese, its a local dish, brought here from Genoa and similar to the "calentita" (a Genoese-inspired dish with a Spanish name). Den1977 15:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Den,
Actually the link between pifiar and "piciar" is beyond doubt since it exists in Spanish from Spain itself. "Piciar" (as does pifiar) in Spain means "to screw up", so in this sense, the etymology is almost certainly Spanish. As for Pastiso, you are right that in Spanish "pastizal" means a grassy field but in Spanish it also means roughly a disaster, a mess or a difficult situation (the same as pastiso in llanito). As for marchapié, I dont know the exact meaning of this word in llanito. Does it mean pavement? And is panissa also llanito? The latter is certainly of foreign origin.
-- Cassius80 17:43, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
How about "shuni" as an example of a word with no obvious Spanish or English origin. It means "cute" and god knows where it comes from. Actually, does anyone know anything about these words? Are any in use in Spain? Any etymologies for them? -
87.127.73.65 02:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
In addition, there are words in Llanito that are undeniably Spanish(or Anduluz) in origin but are not used in the same way as in Spain. We say
Spellings from RAE, Llanito from me:) In addition we sometimes use Spanish words with a different meaning e.g. "Picar" to "knock(on a door)". RAE does not give that meaning to that word. Is this the definition of a dialect? It certainly wouldn't be considered to be "proper" Spanish. 86.143.192.240 22:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Maybe not, but all of those words are used in Spain in exactly the same way as in Gibraltar (except maybe for marchapié). Not all Spaniards use "proper" Spanish, in fact most dont.:-)
-- Cassius80 17:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I have erased the example of Yanito since it is more code switching than Yanito itself. Yanito is not about code switching at all. It is a dialect of Andalusian Spanish with English and other influences.
Is this so? I'm not quite sure how llanito should be defined, but debating whether it includes code switching, or consists of everything aside from code switching seems dangerously close to original-research territory. Do note that some linguists have called llanito a code switching language - See [3] 87.127.73.65 02:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I am surprised by the etymology given for "napia" since it is a word used in all of Spain. Same goes for "pasma" which is also slang for police in regular spanish. -- Burgas00 17:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Yep I concur Chico is just another way of saying pequeno in all of Spain, although it is much more regularly used in the southern parts of the country, where indeed pequeno is rarely used. All Spaniards would know what you mean when you say chico because everyone is familiarised with the southern dialects of the language. The same goes for southamerica where it is used meaning small in just about every latin american country.
Nevertheless there are many words and expressions which are specific to Gibraltar. Its just a question of finding the right examples. I speak Spanish at a native level so I can check for you any proposals to be included in the article instead of pasma, chico or napia. As far as I know pavana is not a Spanish word. I wouldnt be surprised if it was of Italian origin. Tablita is a llanito word.
An important discovery I just made: It seems that llanito is also widely spoken in la linea de la concepcion. http://www.lalinea.ws/foro/showthread.php?t=122 -- Burgas00 20:45, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Burgas00: I have changed "dialect back to creole as it isn't a dialect derived of a single language but a mixture of more than two languages. I hope this is ok for the moment, at least until we can find some backing evidence for an other classification. :)
I hope we can spruce the article up to a good standard. It definitely needs sections; how about Intro, Natives (meaning gentilicio not sure whether it's the correct term), Etymology, Grammer, Vocabulary...? Gibmetal 77 talk 23:55, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I dont know. I am not a llanito but I have been there on many occastions and I have listened to the locals speak among them. As is written in the article, I did notice that code-switching seems to be a phenomenon largely restricted to the upper echelons of society. Generally, llanitos speak a version of Andalusian (or rather Cadiz) Spanish, which has a wealth of local terms and expressions.
Whether this can be classed as a dialect, a creole language or perhaps a "manner of speech" I dont know. Comparing Llanito to Maltese is pushing it a bit, i think. :-) -- Burgas00 10:51, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
The thing is that "creole" implies something which llanito is not. I mean you cant compare it to Papiamentu or some of those pidgin French or English languages spoken in the carribean or west africa. By in large, llanito is correct (Andalusian) Spanish. The grammar, the syntax, the tenses and conjugations are all correct Spanish. The main difference, as Chris mentions, is that there are some lexical terms (derived mostly from English) which are unknown in other forms of Spanish. And secondly there is the code-switching, which is practiced by a number of llanitos. Then again, it is also practiced by a number of Puertoricans and Mexicans.
I would say that Puerto Rican Spanish, for example, is as influenced by English (if not more) as llanito is. Nevertheless, it is still not classified as a patois or creole language. Perhaps the main difference, is that whereas in Puerto Rico, Spanish has official status, and thus access to "standard" Spanish is available to the population, in Gibraltar it is not, at least in theory.
Then there is clearly the issue of politics. Classifying llanito as a patois or a language as opposed to simply "Spanish" clearly has indirect political implications in the Anglo-Spanish dispute. In Spain, for example, Galician is classified as a language rather than what it is (a mixture of Spanish and Portuguese) and Valencian is also generally regarded as a separate "language" (when its really a dialect of Catalan) because of the political hostility between Valencia and Catalonia. There has been a debate on Andalusian Spanish, but I think it is now classified as a "manner of speech" or something like that. -- Burgas00 15:34, 15 June 2007 (UTC) -- Burgas00 15:34, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
-- Burgas00 16:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to point out that Llanito isn't really spoken in La Línea. However, a number of Llanito words are common in speech. Just thout I'd make it a bit clearer. :) Gibmetal 77 talk 23:19, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Im moving this whole discussion to the Llanito page, since that is what we are discussing.
Im not convinced by your 2 examples, Chris. In Spanish, (Andalusian or not) one would say "Donde esta la luz" not "el interruptor", a word which is rarely, if ever, used. Im pretty sure, that "la luz" for the switch is said in Gibraltar aswell. As for "vostros", one of the distinguishing features of Andalusian Spanish is the absence of this word. As in Gibraltar, it is replaced by Ustedes in all contexts, sometimes in mixed contexts such as "Ustedes vais a Gibraltar".
I know that code switching is absent in La Linea, although I disagree that Code Switching is the distinguishing feature of Llanito. It is its rich lexical differences with Andalusian Spanish which make it "unique", not the practice of Spanglish by some of Gibraltar's inhabitants. This is why Im arguing that Llanito is also spoken in La Linea.
Chris, where are your Spanish friends from? They seem to speak (and understand) only a ridiculously formal form of Spanish which is giving you a wrong idea about the language... Burgas00
Ah, I have listed two Llanito words and was wondering whether you could tell me whether they were used in Spanish or meant the same:
e.g.
e.g.
Well you guys have chosen maybe the two most versatile words in the Spanish language. Chungo is indeed a Spanish word of Calo origin. It is commonly used for the following meanings:
As for Pija, the word has many meanings in different parts of Spain and of the Spanish speaking world, although I am not familiar with it being used to mean "luck". I wouldnt rule it out though.
One thing, Chris, if you entered a shop in Spain and people would recognise you not as not Spanish that can only mean that your mother tongue (what you spoke at home) is English. However, the vast majority of Gibraltarians, whos mother tongue is llanito, would not be recognised as foreign in Spain, at least in the context of small talk.
-- Burgas00 22:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
In the article:
Llanito: Ay 'n call pa ti.
Spanish: Tienes una llamada.
Wouldn't it make more sense for the Spanish to be "Hay una llamada para ti"?
2604:2000:F1A1:B00:191F:A681:BDD:76DF (
talk)
01:40, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
Anyone has any ideas for improving this article? Its kind of short for a potentially very interesting article... Maybe something on the historical development of the dialect... -- Guzman ramirez 20:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Are any of these words expressions present in llanito? Trying to find more Jaquetía words apart from wo.
Burgas00 12:38, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
This is really interesting. Are floosh, mesquin, charaban and calamita used in llanito nowadays? The thing about Maltese is that it is basically Arabic. If you speak Maltese you can positively understand Tunisian Arabic. Words like Miskin and Flus are both of Arabic origin and, if they are present in Llanito, they may have entered the language through Maltese, Haquetia or Moroccan Arabic. -- Burgas00 19:57, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Calamita is a Spanish word. :( http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=calamita
Not widely used though... I didnt know it at least...
-- Burgas00 01:30, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I've found a website here that claims to list a few phrases of Haquetía origin used by non-Jews as well as Jews in Llanito.
Should we add any of these? Isaacmayer9 ( talk) 17:55, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
It is clear that Llanito is looked down on by some people, probably the more upper class elements of the society. Can this article supply more information on its status, and also how attitudes are affecting it? -- MacRusgail ( talk) 16:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)⅓
It has never being classified as a language by any of the linguists who have researched Llanito thoroughly. It is not standardised as any language would be. Regards, -- Gibmetal 77 talk 22:05, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
This reminds me of the "language" spoken by Portuguese immigrants in the US and Canada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.243.128.180 ( talk) 13:13, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Thanks RedCoat for reverting El estremeñu's edit again. I'll explain why we did so for El estremeñu's sake...
The article should be categorised under Andalusian Spanish variants as Llanito is mainly based on this form of Spanish, as stated in the article. It should not be categorised under Spanish variants of Spain (which I assume means Spanish language variants in Spain) as Gibraltar does not form part of Spain. Regards, -- Gibmetal 77 talk 19:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the link to this blog for the second time as per WP:ELNO. -- Gibmetal 77 talk 22:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Llanito is a language just as Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian are. Just because it is not recognised officialy it does not mean that it is not a language. User:Dale Buttigieg 01:05 10 September 2009 (UTC)
There are multiple definitions of "language" and "dialect", but the ISO 639-3 codes are seen as having some authority in recognizing what is a language. An application for a language code for Llanito was made in 2010: [4]. It was not accepted: [5]. Pete unseth ( talk) 22:01, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
For the example:
Llanito: No puedo cocé la gallina porqué la tengo frozen...
Spanish: No puedo cocer el pollo porque está congelado...
English: I can't cook the chicken because it's frozen...
My understanding is that gallina is a Spanish word which is more specific than pollo/chicken, that is, hen. So why would the translation be pollo, not gallina, as well, and why would the English translation not be hen? Thisisnotatest ( talk) 08:55, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
Wee Curry Monster What happened to not making edits without discussing on the talk page first? That has been your main line of argument in reverting me over the past week! Asilah1981 ( talk) 22:58, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
Find me a source from Gibraltar (newspaper, magazine anything) where Gibraltarians are writing "ke" like 13 year old kids on whatsapp and I will agree with you. Until then, we should assume the inhabitants of this territory to be literate. Asilah1981 ( talk) 12:09, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
Here is a sample of code-switching Llanito in Panorama magazine. As you can see, the word "ke" is not used, mainly because writing like that makes you look retarded, Gibraltarian or not. Asilah1981 ( talk) 12:20, 22 September 2016 (UTC) https://books.google.es/books?id=3-qVgdSkljcC&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=Calentita+column&source=bl&ots=TdyYwstZ8v&sig=DyaOBKHyrk53XDL3Et5CTviRrps&hl=es&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiWiPWr-aLPAhUDMhoKHW0_CqoQ6AEIHzAA#v=onepage&q=Calentita%20column&f=false
Here is a use of "ke" in a Spanish English publication. Can't speak as to whether the publication meets citation requirements. Thisisnotatest ( talk) 08:36, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
Hola! Could we upgrade the Yanito examples section and turn it into a proper dictionary? There is plenty online to expand it!14:06, 24 August 2016 (UTC) Llanimami ( talk)
I reverted Asilah1981, for once again returning to this article to insert his own personal opinions and original research. I will also remind him he promised admins he would lay off this topic and stop edit warring. W C M email 17:55, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
WCM Excuse me? I make an individual edit and you automatically revert it, accusing me of edit-warring and reminding me that I "promised admins I would lay off these articles"? Talk about surreal perception of reality. If you have something against a particular edit I make, explain it, don't revert it just because its made by someone you dislike. Asilah1981 ( talk) 18:02, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
The source certainly does not support what was written before. I invite you to point me to where it does. I have read the first chapter of the source and my edit reflects what it says. Could you please point to where the Levey claims Llanito is "an ecclectic mix of Andalusian Spanish and British English, marked by a great deal of code-switching and loanwords from Italian"? The sentence doesn't even make sense. Code-switching already implies a mixing of languages so the sentence is inherently ridiculous. It is saying "Llanito is X marked by X". My edit was as faithful as I could make it to what Levey says in his description. But if this is going to turn into another edit war we will have to settle on a direct quote. Also 95% of unique loanwords in Llanito are taken from English. Asilah1981 ( talk) 21:25, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
I looked at the edit in question before coming here but after seeing the edit summary claiming a reversion of opinion and OR. I couldn't see any opinion or OR. At all. All I saw was a pretty decent copy edit, which might have made some very subtle meaning changes. And even in those subtle meaning differences, I don't see how one can claim one version was more opinionated or less supported by citations than the other. Furthermore, the fact that this was a wholesale reversion of an edit with multiple pieces rather than an attempt to improve it bothers me. It does look like something personal, which is consistent with the wording above where the reverter describes it as a reversion of the editor, not of the edit.
Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (
talk)
03:05, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
Oh dear.
User is pushing his view that Llanito is simply and nothing more than a minor variety of a single dialect of Spanish. In doing so, he reaches the point of contradiction.
The edit claims that Llanito has "unique loanwords". Except it doesn't. In fact, "unique loanwords" is an oxymoron. If the words are unique then they are not loanwords. If they are loanwords they are not unique.
Another. Either this English-based content of Llanito is borrowed or it is code switching. It cannot be both. If it is borrowed, then that would put Llanito far outside the mainstream of Spanish dialects. The differences between Llanito and any standard Spanish dialect you choose to name are far larger than between any two conventional Spanish dialects. In this context, the idea that Llanito is a dialect of Spanish at all is at best debatable. If, on the other hand, it is code-switching then it is not credible to call Llanito Spanish at all, because it's defined as a code-switching mixture between Spanish and English.
We've seen in previous discussions sources that suggest that the claim that Llanito is unambiguously a Spanish dialect is not as clear-cut as Asilah wants it to be. There may not be much actual dispute - linguists for the most part prefer to describe speech patterns than categorise them arbitrarily - but that doesn't mean that we can impose one side or the other.
In terms of the spellings, this - and the insistence that Llanito can only be a dialect of Spanish, no matter what the differences - reinforces another point that was suspected before: that Asilah is editing in such a way as to attempt to downplay the differences between Gibraltar and Spain, implying that the Gibraltarians are all nearly Spanish really, hence implications for the sovereignty dispute.
Of course we've been here before with this editor. We know from the last mess that for Asilah WP:AGF is the last resort, not the first, and we know that the only way to get him to actually give it a try is to get the article protected long term at the point it was at before he edited. Might as well save some time and go there now? Kahastok talk 19:12, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
The page you've linked to unsurprisingly is not available. Is this another case of you claiming a cite that can't be seen supports you as we've seen previously with your edits? Here is a suggestion, why don't you look at some Llanito websites and report back how it's generally written. Are you prepared to do that? Aside from that I probably wouldn't revert again, the changes you made didn't make any improvement but I guess ego wise it Is important for some to be seen to have won the edit war. But changing how Llanito is written to RAE spelling, when the RAE doesn't regulate the language is decidedly pointy. W C M email 13:31, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
Wee Curry Monster You are on holiday and your electronic device is no doubt playing up on you. The source is available to the rest of us. I am not changing to RAE spelling, I am changing to the spelling of the Yanito text in "Calentita" column in Gibraltar's Panorama magazine - as provided in p89 and 90 of Johannes Kramer's book on the subject available to all of us online. (Note, for example, I exclude accents from the Yanito text). I should add that what you are doing is a (no doubt unintended) insult to Gibraltarians, misrepresenting their cultural level. Your version of yanito is basically an exact copy of how deeply uncultured millenials and "chavs" write all over Spain and Latin America, particularly online. Some are just hopelessly moronic spelling mistakes like "allé" for "ayer". On this basis you are attempting to creolize Llanito vernacular?? All the more, since a consensus is standing in the talk page that Llanito is not a creole since 2006. Lets stick to sources please. You know I'm right on this as I have been in all of our prior disputes. If the above source is not enought here you will find dozens of other published texts in Llanito; http://www.panorama.gi/menu.htm. Asilah1981 ( talk) 15:01, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
I've removed the vocabulary section. There is in fact no official standard for spelling Llanito, its generally written phonetically when its put into a written form eg Ke for the Spanish Que. However, I can see there being an interminable argument about sourcing this, with an unrepresentative form being imposed as one editor can source what he believes to be correct from an academic work (although that author makes it plain authentic texts in Llanito are not available and he has used his own form). I feel it would be better not to have it, than to have a section which is wrong. W C M email 12:32, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
Hi everyone, I tried getting involved in this article a while back but no one responded sadly. It seemed you were all too self-involved with your edit warring. Since then I've lost my password and have been obliged to create a new account (see Llanimami above). I don't like getting involved in disputes but, tbh Wee Curry Monster, isn't Panorama a good enough authentic text in Yanito for you? It's online, its a local publication and all of us Gibs above a certain age have been reading Calentita for years. I can't think of any other actual text available at the mo. I certainly doubt that our Llanito dictionaries (there are a few) are written phonetically as you seem to imply and I assure you "ke" is not a distinguishing feature of our language, although it is true we are more relaxed about spelling. Anyways, I have a couple of dictionaries at home, so if you if you guys agree I can start the section from scratch. I hope other editors will collaborate. Best regards, Llanimami2 ( talk) 11:23, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
I have added a YouTube link to Pepe's Pot as a reference which was required since 2009. Llanimami2 ( talk) 13:16, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
As far as I know, the word chachi in Spanish comes from the Romani word Chachipén. Not sure if Llanito is the origin of this word. Napia is indeed related to Lord Napier (although a Romani origin is also proposed) but whether this came through Gibraltar or in the context of the Peninsular war is also debatable. But I agree that most of Llanito lexicon is also used in la Línea de la Concepción and that dialect has very much been influenced by Llanito. Asilah1981 ( talk) 18:16, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
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batería is a standard Spanish term for some kinds of batteries (cars, phones) and an common Anglicism for others (remotes). It is not specifically Llanito or Andalusian. La parma is a Andalusian rhotacist pronunciation of Spanish slang la pasma. I don't know the etymology but it is not English. -- Error ( talk) 12:23, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
I think it was not necessary to remove this. While batería is indeed a Spanish word, the llanito usage is different. In Spanish you have a clear distinction between baterias (batteries), and pilas (cells). In English we often call a AA battery a battery even though it only contains one cell. In Spanish most people make the distinction, and thus most small "batteries" are referred to as pilas. In Llanito the word is Spanish, but the usage is more akin to the English, thus no one in Gibraltar will call any type of battery a pila, but always a battery. 178.208.199.177 ( talk) 09:47, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
wikt:call back would be "llamar de nuevo", not "devolver la llamada". Is it so as well for llamar p'atrás? -- Error ( talk) 10:07, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
I'm considering removing the "citation needed" signs from the pronunciation guides. If anyone objects to that, feel free to respond here and we'll try to arrive at a consensus. I just feel that the Spanish pronunciation is pretty unambiguous. Erinius ( talk) 04:45, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
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[yánito] as a pronunciation is not IPA--[y] in IPA represents German written ü, French written u, not a sound found in either Spanish or English. Removing it. 89.62.105.171 22:00, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Have reverted the IPA pronunciation to what it was previously (IPA: [jɑˈnito] or [ʒɑˈnito]). I'm not sure when it got vandalised to "yánito" or whether the original IPA guide is any different/better than your one. Saluton 01:57, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Are you sure that creole is the right name for this? I'd call it code switching but IANALinguist. -- Error 01:18, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Similar to the spanglish in the US.--
Jondel 09:20, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
fat
I think the example given in this article of llanito is not llanito but as has been rightly said above, code switching. Real llanito is basically creole Spanish with no code switching to English but with many words which have english (or other) origin but are corrupted in form. There is no "but at the end of the day" or "im telling you"... A Gibraltarian should offer a more realistic example of llanito dialect to this page!.-- Cassius80 19:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Is this so? I'm not quite sure how llanito should be defined, but debating whether it includes code switching, or consists of everything aside from code switching seems dangerously close to original-research territory. Do note that some linguists have called llanito a code switching language - See [2] 87.127.73.65 02:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
The Spanish for at the end of the day is al fin y al cabo, isn't it? -- Error 00:46, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Yes, it is, but "a fin de cuentas" is an expression with an identical or very similar meaning.
-- Burgas00 12:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I have spent some time in Gibraltar, and have looked at various Gibraltar websites, and none of them spell it as Yanito. It's most probably a misspelling by outsiders.
Quiensabe 03:53 UTC 23 Jun 2005
Where is the Tunisian, Italian and Morrocan influence in Llanito? Can someone give me an example of it? Should llanito be classed as a language or even a dialect? As far as I can tell it is people who speak the Cadiz variant of the Andalusian dialect who also happen to know english and thus switch from one language to the other.-- Burgas00 12:51, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
While the basis of Llanito is indeed code-switching between English and Spanish, Llanito is unique in that it also incorporates words from Maltese and from northern Italian dialects (specifically Genoese - such as "marchapie" for pavement or "mesquin" for an unfortunate person, which derives from the Genoese "meschin" or Maltese "miskin"). It has been claimed that some Hebrew words have crept into the vernacular although I cannot provide evidence for this. There is, however, a Llanito phrase "haremos woh" (an expression of resignation, as in "what can we do?") and also "echar el woh" (to curse someone) which are said to have Hebrew origins. In essence while English-Spanish is the foundation of Llanito, it also brings in linguistic elements from the various communities (Genoese, Maltese, etc.) which historically fed into the Gibraltarian population pool. Den1977 17:46, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Den1977: You find a very complicated etymology of the word "Mesquin". Genoese, Maltese...? Dosent it just come from the Spanish word Mezquino (pronounced Mesquino in Andalusian) Mezquino in Spanish has many meaning, among them: unfortunate. It is one of many Spanish words of arabic origin (Miskeen). As for "Haremos woh" it sounds to me like another andalusian mispronounciation of an English word... probably "what". Marchapié is also a Spanish word of French origin (Marchepied) You can find all these words in the Real Academia de la Lengua Española. www.rae.es -- Burgas00 20:13, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Burgas00: It seems to me that you are trying your best to negate the fact that there are other linguistic elements that feed into Llanito besides Spanish (or "the Cadiz variant of the Andalusian dialect") or mispronounced English. I do not deny the extremely important role that Spanish plays in Llanito (Spanish, and as you rightly state, particularly Andalusian Spanish, lies without doubt at the very core of Llanito) but equally we cannot deny that its uniqueness, that which makes it more than simple code-swtiching between English and Spanish, or, as you would have it, more than the "andalusian mispronounciation of an English word" is the presence of at least some non-English and non-Spanish words in the lingo. The identification of Genoese/Maltese words is not a fabrication of mine, but has been the focus of work conducted recently by Professor Joseph Brincat from the University of Malta, who presented a paper on the subject at the University of Udine in which he pointed to the presence of Maltese and Genoese elements in Llanito. There are currently various other academic linguistic studies of Llanito underway (Anja Kellermann's book entitled "The New New English: Language, Politics & Identity in Gibraltar" has recently been published as one example). It would appear that the subject is attracting some well-deserved academic attention and we may be able to engage in a more informed debate once the findings of these various studies become available.
Thinking objectively, the notion that Maltese and Genoese (and indeed Hebrew) are present in Llanito should come as no surprise given the historic composition of the Gibraltarian population especially post-1704. It stands to reason, though admittedly it might be difficult to test scientifically, that certain Maltese/Genoese/Hebrew words and expressions have crept into the vernacular and are still in use today albeit perhaps in corrupted (perhaps even in anglicised or hispanicised) forms. Den1977 11:13, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
ofcourse, i would not be surprised if this influence existed, since quite a few gibraltarians have maltese origins. i think caruana is maltese surname... just wanted an example, thats all. not trying to negate any influence, it is just that the examples u gave were not convincing and i am generally interested in the subject. i agree with you that llanito is more than just code switching. the example, of llanito given in the article however does not sound like the llanito i have heard and seems to limit itself to codeswitching... -- Burgas00 14:48, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes it exists also in French: Mesquin.
To further complicate matters, it would appear that some words used in Llanito, e.g. "canilla" for "water tap" are terms used not in Spain but in Latin America. I wonder why this could be? There is no significant movement of people from Latin American countries to Gibraltar at any stage during the latter's demographic history, so I wonder where the link could originate? Den1977 10:57, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, many words in latin america derive from the dialects of spanish regions in which there was strong emigration to latin america. For example, the cuban word for bus "la guagua" comes from the canary islands, where it is also used. Andalusian is perhaps the strongest influence on the different latin american spanish languages. Are you sure that the word "canilla" is not used in the rest of Cadiz province? If this word is not used in other towns of the bay of algeciras i dont know its origin...Probably simply an anachronism. Burgas00
According to a friend of mine, born in Cadiz City and brought up in Sanlucar, canilla is either a tap or a stopcock. It is simply another of those wonderful Baetica Latin anachronisms that still survive in Andalusian Spanish but not in other Peninsular dialects (e.g. "Estar Arreci[d]o", being another one) Asterion 01:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Asterion that is what I thought. .. As for Guagua, it is not known whether the word originates in Canarias or in Cuba but considering that Canarians emigrated to Cuba rather than the other way round, one would imagine the word to be of Canarian origin. It is most likely, as you say, a Spanish mispronounciation of Waggon.-- Burgas00 17:24, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
http://www.etnografo.com/gibraltar_yanis%20de.htm
this site is good-- Burgas00 12:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Here are 2 words that somone might be able to find an origin for. I suspect they're Italian/Maltese: piciaso ; pastiso
And what about cuecaro? ;-) [a gibbo]
piciaso, pastiso cuécaro... What do these words mean? I have never heard them...-- Burgas00 23:22, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Cuecaro is Quaker Oats
Hi Burgas00, piciaso is a disaster, like when smoehting falls through e.g que piciaso = what a disaster/flop
Pastiso is a mess. e.g El cuarto lo tiene(s) hesho un pastiso! = Your room is a mess!
If anyone can find out where these words come from it could be interesting. [a gibbo]
Piciaso can come from Spanish to pifiar which means roughly the same thing. Many people mispronounce pifiar saying piciar. From Piciar to Piciado or Piciaso. But thats just a theory...
Pastiso is probably also Spanish. In Spain we have a similar expression with the word "pastizal". Pastizal --- pastizo...
Writing phonetically with the andalusian accent rather than with proper spelling makes it much harder to find the etymology of a particular word:-)
-- Cassius80 20:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Well these etymologies presented by Cassius seem right to me... still waiting for an example of a word which is of neither English nor Spanish origin. The claim that there are words of morrocan, genoese or maltese origin is begining to seem like a myth...-- Burgas00 11:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
You shouldn't be so eager to dismiss the theory as a myth. It is very difficult for any of us to be able to conduct a scientific corroboration of any of these words. Cassius makes a compelling argument above, but there is, as he himself concedes, as much guesswork there as there was with my original suggestions. The same goes for your earlier dismissal of the phrases "hechar el woh" (to curse) and "haremos woh" (an expression of resignation) as mispronounciations of the English "what" (I'm not convinced!). The 'myth', if it is one, cannot be debunked with other 'myths' and half-baked assumptions, however compelling the explanation may be.
The link between "pifiar" and "piciar" and "pastizal" and "pastiso" is, for me at least, a tenuous one at best. (The RAE definition of "pastizal" is "terreno de abundante pasto"!!!). Why do Gibraltarians use the word "marchapie" for pavement? (the closest I can find is the Spanish "marchapie", which is a "cabo pendiente a lo largo de las vergas, que sirve para sostener a la marinería que trabaja en ellas" (RAE definition) and the French "marchepied" which exists in a different context (it means "running board" or "footboard"). The proper noun "panissa" is clearly Genoese, its a local dish, brought here from Genoa and similar to the "calentita" (a Genoese-inspired dish with a Spanish name). Den1977 15:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Den,
Actually the link between pifiar and "piciar" is beyond doubt since it exists in Spanish from Spain itself. "Piciar" (as does pifiar) in Spain means "to screw up", so in this sense, the etymology is almost certainly Spanish. As for Pastiso, you are right that in Spanish "pastizal" means a grassy field but in Spanish it also means roughly a disaster, a mess or a difficult situation (the same as pastiso in llanito). As for marchapié, I dont know the exact meaning of this word in llanito. Does it mean pavement? And is panissa also llanito? The latter is certainly of foreign origin.
-- Cassius80 17:43, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
How about "shuni" as an example of a word with no obvious Spanish or English origin. It means "cute" and god knows where it comes from. Actually, does anyone know anything about these words? Are any in use in Spain? Any etymologies for them? -
87.127.73.65 02:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
In addition, there are words in Llanito that are undeniably Spanish(or Anduluz) in origin but are not used in the same way as in Spain. We say
Spellings from RAE, Llanito from me:) In addition we sometimes use Spanish words with a different meaning e.g. "Picar" to "knock(on a door)". RAE does not give that meaning to that word. Is this the definition of a dialect? It certainly wouldn't be considered to be "proper" Spanish. 86.143.192.240 22:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Maybe not, but all of those words are used in Spain in exactly the same way as in Gibraltar (except maybe for marchapié). Not all Spaniards use "proper" Spanish, in fact most dont.:-)
-- Cassius80 17:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I have erased the example of Yanito since it is more code switching than Yanito itself. Yanito is not about code switching at all. It is a dialect of Andalusian Spanish with English and other influences.
Is this so? I'm not quite sure how llanito should be defined, but debating whether it includes code switching, or consists of everything aside from code switching seems dangerously close to original-research territory. Do note that some linguists have called llanito a code switching language - See [3] 87.127.73.65 02:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I am surprised by the etymology given for "napia" since it is a word used in all of Spain. Same goes for "pasma" which is also slang for police in regular spanish. -- Burgas00 17:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Yep I concur Chico is just another way of saying pequeno in all of Spain, although it is much more regularly used in the southern parts of the country, where indeed pequeno is rarely used. All Spaniards would know what you mean when you say chico because everyone is familiarised with the southern dialects of the language. The same goes for southamerica where it is used meaning small in just about every latin american country.
Nevertheless there are many words and expressions which are specific to Gibraltar. Its just a question of finding the right examples. I speak Spanish at a native level so I can check for you any proposals to be included in the article instead of pasma, chico or napia. As far as I know pavana is not a Spanish word. I wouldnt be surprised if it was of Italian origin. Tablita is a llanito word.
An important discovery I just made: It seems that llanito is also widely spoken in la linea de la concepcion. http://www.lalinea.ws/foro/showthread.php?t=122 -- Burgas00 20:45, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Burgas00: I have changed "dialect back to creole as it isn't a dialect derived of a single language but a mixture of more than two languages. I hope this is ok for the moment, at least until we can find some backing evidence for an other classification. :)
I hope we can spruce the article up to a good standard. It definitely needs sections; how about Intro, Natives (meaning gentilicio not sure whether it's the correct term), Etymology, Grammer, Vocabulary...? Gibmetal 77 talk 23:55, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I dont know. I am not a llanito but I have been there on many occastions and I have listened to the locals speak among them. As is written in the article, I did notice that code-switching seems to be a phenomenon largely restricted to the upper echelons of society. Generally, llanitos speak a version of Andalusian (or rather Cadiz) Spanish, which has a wealth of local terms and expressions.
Whether this can be classed as a dialect, a creole language or perhaps a "manner of speech" I dont know. Comparing Llanito to Maltese is pushing it a bit, i think. :-) -- Burgas00 10:51, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
The thing is that "creole" implies something which llanito is not. I mean you cant compare it to Papiamentu or some of those pidgin French or English languages spoken in the carribean or west africa. By in large, llanito is correct (Andalusian) Spanish. The grammar, the syntax, the tenses and conjugations are all correct Spanish. The main difference, as Chris mentions, is that there are some lexical terms (derived mostly from English) which are unknown in other forms of Spanish. And secondly there is the code-switching, which is practiced by a number of llanitos. Then again, it is also practiced by a number of Puertoricans and Mexicans.
I would say that Puerto Rican Spanish, for example, is as influenced by English (if not more) as llanito is. Nevertheless, it is still not classified as a patois or creole language. Perhaps the main difference, is that whereas in Puerto Rico, Spanish has official status, and thus access to "standard" Spanish is available to the population, in Gibraltar it is not, at least in theory.
Then there is clearly the issue of politics. Classifying llanito as a patois or a language as opposed to simply "Spanish" clearly has indirect political implications in the Anglo-Spanish dispute. In Spain, for example, Galician is classified as a language rather than what it is (a mixture of Spanish and Portuguese) and Valencian is also generally regarded as a separate "language" (when its really a dialect of Catalan) because of the political hostility between Valencia and Catalonia. There has been a debate on Andalusian Spanish, but I think it is now classified as a "manner of speech" or something like that. -- Burgas00 15:34, 15 June 2007 (UTC) -- Burgas00 15:34, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
-- Burgas00 16:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to point out that Llanito isn't really spoken in La Línea. However, a number of Llanito words are common in speech. Just thout I'd make it a bit clearer. :) Gibmetal 77 talk 23:19, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Im moving this whole discussion to the Llanito page, since that is what we are discussing.
Im not convinced by your 2 examples, Chris. In Spanish, (Andalusian or not) one would say "Donde esta la luz" not "el interruptor", a word which is rarely, if ever, used. Im pretty sure, that "la luz" for the switch is said in Gibraltar aswell. As for "vostros", one of the distinguishing features of Andalusian Spanish is the absence of this word. As in Gibraltar, it is replaced by Ustedes in all contexts, sometimes in mixed contexts such as "Ustedes vais a Gibraltar".
I know that code switching is absent in La Linea, although I disagree that Code Switching is the distinguishing feature of Llanito. It is its rich lexical differences with Andalusian Spanish which make it "unique", not the practice of Spanglish by some of Gibraltar's inhabitants. This is why Im arguing that Llanito is also spoken in La Linea.
Chris, where are your Spanish friends from? They seem to speak (and understand) only a ridiculously formal form of Spanish which is giving you a wrong idea about the language... Burgas00
Ah, I have listed two Llanito words and was wondering whether you could tell me whether they were used in Spanish or meant the same:
e.g.
e.g.
Well you guys have chosen maybe the two most versatile words in the Spanish language. Chungo is indeed a Spanish word of Calo origin. It is commonly used for the following meanings:
As for Pija, the word has many meanings in different parts of Spain and of the Spanish speaking world, although I am not familiar with it being used to mean "luck". I wouldnt rule it out though.
One thing, Chris, if you entered a shop in Spain and people would recognise you not as not Spanish that can only mean that your mother tongue (what you spoke at home) is English. However, the vast majority of Gibraltarians, whos mother tongue is llanito, would not be recognised as foreign in Spain, at least in the context of small talk.
-- Burgas00 22:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
In the article:
Llanito: Ay 'n call pa ti.
Spanish: Tienes una llamada.
Wouldn't it make more sense for the Spanish to be "Hay una llamada para ti"?
2604:2000:F1A1:B00:191F:A681:BDD:76DF (
talk)
01:40, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
Anyone has any ideas for improving this article? Its kind of short for a potentially very interesting article... Maybe something on the historical development of the dialect... -- Guzman ramirez 20:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Are any of these words expressions present in llanito? Trying to find more Jaquetía words apart from wo.
Burgas00 12:38, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
This is really interesting. Are floosh, mesquin, charaban and calamita used in llanito nowadays? The thing about Maltese is that it is basically Arabic. If you speak Maltese you can positively understand Tunisian Arabic. Words like Miskin and Flus are both of Arabic origin and, if they are present in Llanito, they may have entered the language through Maltese, Haquetia or Moroccan Arabic. -- Burgas00 19:57, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Calamita is a Spanish word. :( http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=calamita
Not widely used though... I didnt know it at least...
-- Burgas00 01:30, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I've found a website here that claims to list a few phrases of Haquetía origin used by non-Jews as well as Jews in Llanito.
Should we add any of these? Isaacmayer9 ( talk) 17:55, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
It is clear that Llanito is looked down on by some people, probably the more upper class elements of the society. Can this article supply more information on its status, and also how attitudes are affecting it? -- MacRusgail ( talk) 16:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)⅓
It has never being classified as a language by any of the linguists who have researched Llanito thoroughly. It is not standardised as any language would be. Regards, -- Gibmetal 77 talk 22:05, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
This reminds me of the "language" spoken by Portuguese immigrants in the US and Canada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.243.128.180 ( talk) 13:13, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Thanks RedCoat for reverting El estremeñu's edit again. I'll explain why we did so for El estremeñu's sake...
The article should be categorised under Andalusian Spanish variants as Llanito is mainly based on this form of Spanish, as stated in the article. It should not be categorised under Spanish variants of Spain (which I assume means Spanish language variants in Spain) as Gibraltar does not form part of Spain. Regards, -- Gibmetal 77 talk 19:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the link to this blog for the second time as per WP:ELNO. -- Gibmetal 77 talk 22:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Llanito is a language just as Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian are. Just because it is not recognised officialy it does not mean that it is not a language. User:Dale Buttigieg 01:05 10 September 2009 (UTC)
There are multiple definitions of "language" and "dialect", but the ISO 639-3 codes are seen as having some authority in recognizing what is a language. An application for a language code for Llanito was made in 2010: [4]. It was not accepted: [5]. Pete unseth ( talk) 22:01, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
For the example:
Llanito: No puedo cocé la gallina porqué la tengo frozen...
Spanish: No puedo cocer el pollo porque está congelado...
English: I can't cook the chicken because it's frozen...
My understanding is that gallina is a Spanish word which is more specific than pollo/chicken, that is, hen. So why would the translation be pollo, not gallina, as well, and why would the English translation not be hen? Thisisnotatest ( talk) 08:55, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
Wee Curry Monster What happened to not making edits without discussing on the talk page first? That has been your main line of argument in reverting me over the past week! Asilah1981 ( talk) 22:58, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
Find me a source from Gibraltar (newspaper, magazine anything) where Gibraltarians are writing "ke" like 13 year old kids on whatsapp and I will agree with you. Until then, we should assume the inhabitants of this territory to be literate. Asilah1981 ( talk) 12:09, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
Here is a sample of code-switching Llanito in Panorama magazine. As you can see, the word "ke" is not used, mainly because writing like that makes you look retarded, Gibraltarian or not. Asilah1981 ( talk) 12:20, 22 September 2016 (UTC) https://books.google.es/books?id=3-qVgdSkljcC&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=Calentita+column&source=bl&ots=TdyYwstZ8v&sig=DyaOBKHyrk53XDL3Et5CTviRrps&hl=es&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiWiPWr-aLPAhUDMhoKHW0_CqoQ6AEIHzAA#v=onepage&q=Calentita%20column&f=false
Here is a use of "ke" in a Spanish English publication. Can't speak as to whether the publication meets citation requirements. Thisisnotatest ( talk) 08:36, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
Hola! Could we upgrade the Yanito examples section and turn it into a proper dictionary? There is plenty online to expand it!14:06, 24 August 2016 (UTC) Llanimami ( talk)
I reverted Asilah1981, for once again returning to this article to insert his own personal opinions and original research. I will also remind him he promised admins he would lay off this topic and stop edit warring. W C M email 17:55, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
WCM Excuse me? I make an individual edit and you automatically revert it, accusing me of edit-warring and reminding me that I "promised admins I would lay off these articles"? Talk about surreal perception of reality. If you have something against a particular edit I make, explain it, don't revert it just because its made by someone you dislike. Asilah1981 ( talk) 18:02, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
The source certainly does not support what was written before. I invite you to point me to where it does. I have read the first chapter of the source and my edit reflects what it says. Could you please point to where the Levey claims Llanito is "an ecclectic mix of Andalusian Spanish and British English, marked by a great deal of code-switching and loanwords from Italian"? The sentence doesn't even make sense. Code-switching already implies a mixing of languages so the sentence is inherently ridiculous. It is saying "Llanito is X marked by X". My edit was as faithful as I could make it to what Levey says in his description. But if this is going to turn into another edit war we will have to settle on a direct quote. Also 95% of unique loanwords in Llanito are taken from English. Asilah1981 ( talk) 21:25, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
I looked at the edit in question before coming here but after seeing the edit summary claiming a reversion of opinion and OR. I couldn't see any opinion or OR. At all. All I saw was a pretty decent copy edit, which might have made some very subtle meaning changes. And even in those subtle meaning differences, I don't see how one can claim one version was more opinionated or less supported by citations than the other. Furthermore, the fact that this was a wholesale reversion of an edit with multiple pieces rather than an attempt to improve it bothers me. It does look like something personal, which is consistent with the wording above where the reverter describes it as a reversion of the editor, not of the edit.
Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (
talk)
03:05, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
Oh dear.
User is pushing his view that Llanito is simply and nothing more than a minor variety of a single dialect of Spanish. In doing so, he reaches the point of contradiction.
The edit claims that Llanito has "unique loanwords". Except it doesn't. In fact, "unique loanwords" is an oxymoron. If the words are unique then they are not loanwords. If they are loanwords they are not unique.
Another. Either this English-based content of Llanito is borrowed or it is code switching. It cannot be both. If it is borrowed, then that would put Llanito far outside the mainstream of Spanish dialects. The differences between Llanito and any standard Spanish dialect you choose to name are far larger than between any two conventional Spanish dialects. In this context, the idea that Llanito is a dialect of Spanish at all is at best debatable. If, on the other hand, it is code-switching then it is not credible to call Llanito Spanish at all, because it's defined as a code-switching mixture between Spanish and English.
We've seen in previous discussions sources that suggest that the claim that Llanito is unambiguously a Spanish dialect is not as clear-cut as Asilah wants it to be. There may not be much actual dispute - linguists for the most part prefer to describe speech patterns than categorise them arbitrarily - but that doesn't mean that we can impose one side or the other.
In terms of the spellings, this - and the insistence that Llanito can only be a dialect of Spanish, no matter what the differences - reinforces another point that was suspected before: that Asilah is editing in such a way as to attempt to downplay the differences between Gibraltar and Spain, implying that the Gibraltarians are all nearly Spanish really, hence implications for the sovereignty dispute.
Of course we've been here before with this editor. We know from the last mess that for Asilah WP:AGF is the last resort, not the first, and we know that the only way to get him to actually give it a try is to get the article protected long term at the point it was at before he edited. Might as well save some time and go there now? Kahastok talk 19:12, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
The page you've linked to unsurprisingly is not available. Is this another case of you claiming a cite that can't be seen supports you as we've seen previously with your edits? Here is a suggestion, why don't you look at some Llanito websites and report back how it's generally written. Are you prepared to do that? Aside from that I probably wouldn't revert again, the changes you made didn't make any improvement but I guess ego wise it Is important for some to be seen to have won the edit war. But changing how Llanito is written to RAE spelling, when the RAE doesn't regulate the language is decidedly pointy. W C M email 13:31, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
Wee Curry Monster You are on holiday and your electronic device is no doubt playing up on you. The source is available to the rest of us. I am not changing to RAE spelling, I am changing to the spelling of the Yanito text in "Calentita" column in Gibraltar's Panorama magazine - as provided in p89 and 90 of Johannes Kramer's book on the subject available to all of us online. (Note, for example, I exclude accents from the Yanito text). I should add that what you are doing is a (no doubt unintended) insult to Gibraltarians, misrepresenting their cultural level. Your version of yanito is basically an exact copy of how deeply uncultured millenials and "chavs" write all over Spain and Latin America, particularly online. Some are just hopelessly moronic spelling mistakes like "allé" for "ayer". On this basis you are attempting to creolize Llanito vernacular?? All the more, since a consensus is standing in the talk page that Llanito is not a creole since 2006. Lets stick to sources please. You know I'm right on this as I have been in all of our prior disputes. If the above source is not enought here you will find dozens of other published texts in Llanito; http://www.panorama.gi/menu.htm. Asilah1981 ( talk) 15:01, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
I've removed the vocabulary section. There is in fact no official standard for spelling Llanito, its generally written phonetically when its put into a written form eg Ke for the Spanish Que. However, I can see there being an interminable argument about sourcing this, with an unrepresentative form being imposed as one editor can source what he believes to be correct from an academic work (although that author makes it plain authentic texts in Llanito are not available and he has used his own form). I feel it would be better not to have it, than to have a section which is wrong. W C M email 12:32, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
Hi everyone, I tried getting involved in this article a while back but no one responded sadly. It seemed you were all too self-involved with your edit warring. Since then I've lost my password and have been obliged to create a new account (see Llanimami above). I don't like getting involved in disputes but, tbh Wee Curry Monster, isn't Panorama a good enough authentic text in Yanito for you? It's online, its a local publication and all of us Gibs above a certain age have been reading Calentita for years. I can't think of any other actual text available at the mo. I certainly doubt that our Llanito dictionaries (there are a few) are written phonetically as you seem to imply and I assure you "ke" is not a distinguishing feature of our language, although it is true we are more relaxed about spelling. Anyways, I have a couple of dictionaries at home, so if you if you guys agree I can start the section from scratch. I hope other editors will collaborate. Best regards, Llanimami2 ( talk) 11:23, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
I have added a YouTube link to Pepe's Pot as a reference which was required since 2009. Llanimami2 ( talk) 13:16, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
As far as I know, the word chachi in Spanish comes from the Romani word Chachipén. Not sure if Llanito is the origin of this word. Napia is indeed related to Lord Napier (although a Romani origin is also proposed) but whether this came through Gibraltar or in the context of the Peninsular war is also debatable. But I agree that most of Llanito lexicon is also used in la Línea de la Concepción and that dialect has very much been influenced by Llanito. Asilah1981 ( talk) 18:16, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
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I have removed:
batería is a standard Spanish term for some kinds of batteries (cars, phones) and an common Anglicism for others (remotes). It is not specifically Llanito or Andalusian. La parma is a Andalusian rhotacist pronunciation of Spanish slang la pasma. I don't know the etymology but it is not English. -- Error ( talk) 12:23, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
I think it was not necessary to remove this. While batería is indeed a Spanish word, the llanito usage is different. In Spanish you have a clear distinction between baterias (batteries), and pilas (cells). In English we often call a AA battery a battery even though it only contains one cell. In Spanish most people make the distinction, and thus most small "batteries" are referred to as pilas. In Llanito the word is Spanish, but the usage is more akin to the English, thus no one in Gibraltar will call any type of battery a pila, but always a battery. 178.208.199.177 ( talk) 09:47, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
wikt:call back would be "llamar de nuevo", not "devolver la llamada". Is it so as well for llamar p'atrás? -- Error ( talk) 10:07, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
I'm considering removing the "citation needed" signs from the pronunciation guides. If anyone objects to that, feel free to respond here and we'll try to arrive at a consensus. I just feel that the Spanish pronunciation is pretty unambiguous. Erinius ( talk) 04:45, 2 November 2021 (UTC)