![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The Livonians' ancestors settled in Livonia in the first half of the 1st millennium BC, probably moving along the Daugava. In the 13th century, the native Livonians inhabited the Estonian counties Alempois, Jogentagana Järva, Läänemaa, Mõhu, Nurmekund, Sakala, Ugandi, and Vaiga in the north, and by the Daugava in the south. The Livonian settlement of Curonia was also begun then.[12]
When I lived in Latvia for a year I met a couple livonian speakers, but they spoke it as an L2 language and were only semi fluent. Who said it was extinct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.83.8.58 ( talk) 02:32, 8 April 2017 (UTC) There are no native livonian speakers. How it can be L2 language, if it is semi-fluent? Also, at present - it is foreign language at best, as it is not spoken even by native population, so whoever learns it, are on their own. 195.147.206.144 ( talk) 20:20, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Are there any reports of something resembling an attempt to reviving Livonian? Things like these happen all over the world, so why not in Livonia/ West Latvia? Caesarion 14:01, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
I found some history on the German version of the page and translated it, and added some common phrases I found on the Czech and Esperanto pages. There's a similar and even better rundown of the history on the Dutch version of the page but I don't really know Dutch... maybe someone could take a look at that? I also added a page on Min izāmō, the national anthem of Livonia, borrowed from the German Wikipedia; is there a translation somewhere? Guypersonson 02:05, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
"Livonian language is part of the WikiProject Estonia, a project to maintain and expand Estonia-related subjects on Wikipedia" They lived in Latvia, Vidzeme and southern Estonia was name after them (Livonia). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.118.205.130 ( talk) 08:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help)
According to the latest journalistic reports, Livonian is currently among the languages with one speaker: 1, 2. For the record, these reports also include the Wintu language, the original language of the Caixanas (btw, is it confirmed that such a language exists at all?), and Yahgan in this list). However, I have been informed from an unreliable source that the last native speaker of Livonian recently died. Could anyone confirm or refute this? -- Omnipaedista ( talk) 20:08, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, I edited and co-wrote the Eesti Päevaleht article on Viktor Berthold, and I was very careful with the formulations. I styled Berthold "the last native speaker of the older generation", which is certainly true. I happen to know three native speakers who are in their 20s and 30s. Would it be necessary to write another article about these three people to make Livonian "un-extinct"? Or could – someone who commands Latvian better than me, preferably – be bothered to search for such existing articles in the Latvian press? The case of Livonian is a bit more complex than with some languages that have become extinct and have been revived decades later, for a continuous chain of native speakers has not been broken, although the number of native speakers is small. How many people speak Livonian as a second language is difficult to establish – I would estimate that at least 20 or 30 linguists are able to converse in Livonian and even sometimes do that; the number of speakers is also growing in Latvia due to interest in the language. That seems enough for me to not consider it extinct. (Although I fear that about to follow is a detailed discussion of what is a "native speaker" and what level of a language test must be passed by a second-language-speaker to qualify. This, in turn, amounts to a number of linguistic problems with no "established truth" to the matter.) Ohpuu ( talk) 07:36, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
It seems there is a typo in the song lyrics given as the Text Example. The first word of the second last line is given as Kuñš. There is no letter ñ in Livonian. I’m guessing it should be õ, but it could easily be something else. languagegeek ( talk) 19:03, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Here : Articles containing Livonian language text.
Budelberger ( ) 17:37, 25 May 2009 (UTC).
This section makes me laugh.
1. First, which other wikipedia language article has a long poem inside them?
2. If there has to be an example: does it really make sense to use one which is clearly written years after the language went out of use? Nice work, but the author did not have a chance to talk with anyone in this language at the time it was written.
3. It there has to be an example, should not it be at least original? This poem is a translation from Estonian, from song by Estonian singer-anarchist Trubetsky. There are plenty of original Livonian texts written by people who used the language for communication.
4. Does the name "Trubetsky" mean the Estonian author himself translated his poem into Livonian? I doubt it. Estonian "Kui naine kord aeg avab meilegi süle" (Like a woman, the time will once open her bossom for us) is (mis)translated to "Až nai ikškõrd vāldiž ka mäddõn tīeb sillõ" (If a woman also once opens bossom for us) Looks to me that the translator just did not understand the very confusing meaning of Estonian lyrics and that means he or she is not a native Estonian speaker (that excludes Trubetsky as author/translator of the Livonian text). Funny, because the popularity of Wikipedia makes Trubetsky now look like some kind famous Livonian poet. Warbola ( talk) 04:39, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
If it has speakers, even non-native ones, it's not extinct. See also Incubator.-- Seonookim ( What I've done so far) ( I'm busy here) ( Tell me your requests) 04:20, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
I was correcting reference to Bertholds as the last native speaker in another article and decided to check articles on the matter at Livonian Culture Center website to see, if they agree with the view. I do see similar markers as the previous time around, when Bertholds was reported as the last initially monolingual speaker - in the obituary she is not called the last native speaker as would be expected, but "the oldest native speaker" and "the Bertholds family members had always been the best informants on Livonian. She was the last". Also there is a later article [1], a comment on this, which calls reporting her as the last Livonian sensationalist and noting that she was one of the best informants "she technically was not the last native speaker" and then goes on to explain that there are at least four people, who are of Livonian descent and speak Livonian non-natively. The article is kind of confusing - it is hard to understand, if he is talking about last person of Livonian ethnicity or last speaker and if he means there is yet another native speaker or he is misusing "technically" and instead means that there are no native speakers, but those four fluent technically non-native speakers make it a living language. This is a bit sketchy, so I am leaving articles as they are, but obviously this begs a question what is going on. ~~ Xil ( talk) 04:23, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
The history section contains the following claim: 1918: The founding of Latvia; the Livonian language re-blossomed
If we accept the fact that by the last turn of the century, i.e. around the year 2000, there were no more than a handful of speakers left, how can the language have blossomed in or after 1918? It does not become clear what is meant by the Livonian language re-blossomed, but it definitely cannot mean that there was a new generation of speakers born after 1918. I suggest that either the sentence be clarified or deleted. Unoffensive text or character ( talk) 10:09, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
IMO it would be good to have translation into Finnish, for comparison. For example, a non-educated me recognized the word Tēriņtš [ = Terve(fi)/Tere(et) ]. Gives an idea of language affinity. Staszek Lem ( talk)
For the Livonian translation of the Lord's Prayer, suddenly a completely different orthography is being used, with underdots, apostrophes, and circumflexes. This orthography is not mentioned in the article and it doesn't show up anywhere else in the article as far as I can tell. If someone knows what's going on here and can rewrite this in the standard orthography, that'd be great 2WR1 ( talk) 23:00, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
I propose to merge Livonian grammar into Livonian language. I think that the content in the grammar article can easily be explained in the context of the language article, and the language article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Livonian grammar will not cause any problems as far as article size is concerned. Dylanvt ( talk) 02:18, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
I added more information to the article, such merge is not needed Lammõz ( talk) 19:30, 29 August 2020 (UTC)- Lammõz ( talk)
Do not do that, it would be an idiotic idea. - 71.208.157.59 ( talk) 14:22, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
thanks for the feedback who fixed my mistake for overrunning old text, i placed it in an area it should be in and reworded it Michael1678( ( talk) 14:05, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The Livonians' ancestors settled in Livonia in the first half of the 1st millennium BC, probably moving along the Daugava. In the 13th century, the native Livonians inhabited the Estonian counties Alempois, Jogentagana Järva, Läänemaa, Mõhu, Nurmekund, Sakala, Ugandi, and Vaiga in the north, and by the Daugava in the south. The Livonian settlement of Curonia was also begun then.[12]
When I lived in Latvia for a year I met a couple livonian speakers, but they spoke it as an L2 language and were only semi fluent. Who said it was extinct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.83.8.58 ( talk) 02:32, 8 April 2017 (UTC) There are no native livonian speakers. How it can be L2 language, if it is semi-fluent? Also, at present - it is foreign language at best, as it is not spoken even by native population, so whoever learns it, are on their own. 195.147.206.144 ( talk) 20:20, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Are there any reports of something resembling an attempt to reviving Livonian? Things like these happen all over the world, so why not in Livonia/ West Latvia? Caesarion 14:01, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
I found some history on the German version of the page and translated it, and added some common phrases I found on the Czech and Esperanto pages. There's a similar and even better rundown of the history on the Dutch version of the page but I don't really know Dutch... maybe someone could take a look at that? I also added a page on Min izāmō, the national anthem of Livonia, borrowed from the German Wikipedia; is there a translation somewhere? Guypersonson 02:05, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
"Livonian language is part of the WikiProject Estonia, a project to maintain and expand Estonia-related subjects on Wikipedia" They lived in Latvia, Vidzeme and southern Estonia was name after them (Livonia). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.118.205.130 ( talk) 08:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help)
According to the latest journalistic reports, Livonian is currently among the languages with one speaker: 1, 2. For the record, these reports also include the Wintu language, the original language of the Caixanas (btw, is it confirmed that such a language exists at all?), and Yahgan in this list). However, I have been informed from an unreliable source that the last native speaker of Livonian recently died. Could anyone confirm or refute this? -- Omnipaedista ( talk) 20:08, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, I edited and co-wrote the Eesti Päevaleht article on Viktor Berthold, and I was very careful with the formulations. I styled Berthold "the last native speaker of the older generation", which is certainly true. I happen to know three native speakers who are in their 20s and 30s. Would it be necessary to write another article about these three people to make Livonian "un-extinct"? Or could – someone who commands Latvian better than me, preferably – be bothered to search for such existing articles in the Latvian press? The case of Livonian is a bit more complex than with some languages that have become extinct and have been revived decades later, for a continuous chain of native speakers has not been broken, although the number of native speakers is small. How many people speak Livonian as a second language is difficult to establish – I would estimate that at least 20 or 30 linguists are able to converse in Livonian and even sometimes do that; the number of speakers is also growing in Latvia due to interest in the language. That seems enough for me to not consider it extinct. (Although I fear that about to follow is a detailed discussion of what is a "native speaker" and what level of a language test must be passed by a second-language-speaker to qualify. This, in turn, amounts to a number of linguistic problems with no "established truth" to the matter.) Ohpuu ( talk) 07:36, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
It seems there is a typo in the song lyrics given as the Text Example. The first word of the second last line is given as Kuñš. There is no letter ñ in Livonian. I’m guessing it should be õ, but it could easily be something else. languagegeek ( talk) 19:03, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Here : Articles containing Livonian language text.
Budelberger ( ) 17:37, 25 May 2009 (UTC).
This section makes me laugh.
1. First, which other wikipedia language article has a long poem inside them?
2. If there has to be an example: does it really make sense to use one which is clearly written years after the language went out of use? Nice work, but the author did not have a chance to talk with anyone in this language at the time it was written.
3. It there has to be an example, should not it be at least original? This poem is a translation from Estonian, from song by Estonian singer-anarchist Trubetsky. There are plenty of original Livonian texts written by people who used the language for communication.
4. Does the name "Trubetsky" mean the Estonian author himself translated his poem into Livonian? I doubt it. Estonian "Kui naine kord aeg avab meilegi süle" (Like a woman, the time will once open her bossom for us) is (mis)translated to "Až nai ikškõrd vāldiž ka mäddõn tīeb sillõ" (If a woman also once opens bossom for us) Looks to me that the translator just did not understand the very confusing meaning of Estonian lyrics and that means he or she is not a native Estonian speaker (that excludes Trubetsky as author/translator of the Livonian text). Funny, because the popularity of Wikipedia makes Trubetsky now look like some kind famous Livonian poet. Warbola ( talk) 04:39, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
If it has speakers, even non-native ones, it's not extinct. See also Incubator.-- Seonookim ( What I've done so far) ( I'm busy here) ( Tell me your requests) 04:20, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
I was correcting reference to Bertholds as the last native speaker in another article and decided to check articles on the matter at Livonian Culture Center website to see, if they agree with the view. I do see similar markers as the previous time around, when Bertholds was reported as the last initially monolingual speaker - in the obituary she is not called the last native speaker as would be expected, but "the oldest native speaker" and "the Bertholds family members had always been the best informants on Livonian. She was the last". Also there is a later article [1], a comment on this, which calls reporting her as the last Livonian sensationalist and noting that she was one of the best informants "she technically was not the last native speaker" and then goes on to explain that there are at least four people, who are of Livonian descent and speak Livonian non-natively. The article is kind of confusing - it is hard to understand, if he is talking about last person of Livonian ethnicity or last speaker and if he means there is yet another native speaker or he is misusing "technically" and instead means that there are no native speakers, but those four fluent technically non-native speakers make it a living language. This is a bit sketchy, so I am leaving articles as they are, but obviously this begs a question what is going on. ~~ Xil ( talk) 04:23, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
The history section contains the following claim: 1918: The founding of Latvia; the Livonian language re-blossomed
If we accept the fact that by the last turn of the century, i.e. around the year 2000, there were no more than a handful of speakers left, how can the language have blossomed in or after 1918? It does not become clear what is meant by the Livonian language re-blossomed, but it definitely cannot mean that there was a new generation of speakers born after 1918. I suggest that either the sentence be clarified or deleted. Unoffensive text or character ( talk) 10:09, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
IMO it would be good to have translation into Finnish, for comparison. For example, a non-educated me recognized the word Tēriņtš [ = Terve(fi)/Tere(et) ]. Gives an idea of language affinity. Staszek Lem ( talk)
For the Livonian translation of the Lord's Prayer, suddenly a completely different orthography is being used, with underdots, apostrophes, and circumflexes. This orthography is not mentioned in the article and it doesn't show up anywhere else in the article as far as I can tell. If someone knows what's going on here and can rewrite this in the standard orthography, that'd be great 2WR1 ( talk) 23:00, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
I propose to merge Livonian grammar into Livonian language. I think that the content in the grammar article can easily be explained in the context of the language article, and the language article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Livonian grammar will not cause any problems as far as article size is concerned. Dylanvt ( talk) 02:18, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
I added more information to the article, such merge is not needed Lammõz ( talk) 19:30, 29 August 2020 (UTC)- Lammõz ( talk)
Do not do that, it would be an idiotic idea. - 71.208.157.59 ( talk) 14:22, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
thanks for the feedback who fixed my mistake for overrunning old text, i placed it in an area it should be in and reworded it Michael1678( ( talk) 14:05, 11 March 2024 (UTC)