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The result of the proposal was no consensus. JPG-GR ( talk) 23:46, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Livonian Order →
Teutonic Order in Livonia or
Livonian branch of the Teutonic Order. —
The current name of this article is not clear and definetly should be changed. This military organization was not a
separate military order, as
Teutonic Order or
Order of Malta. It was just a part (although largely autonomous part) of
Teutonic Order. Moreover, the term Livonian Order is often used for the
Livonian Brothers of the Sword
[1].
The so-called
list of masters of the Livonian Order is actually the list of Teutonic masters of Livonia,
see German article. —
Albert Krantz (
talk) 17:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC).
-the
Livonian Order (until 1237 the
Order of the Knights of the Sword), @
Miniature empires By James Minahan ISBN:0313306109
-
Swordbrothers were incorporated into the German Order in 1237, henceforth known as the
Livonian Order @
The Latvians: A Short History By Andrejs Plakans
--
Termer (
talk) 02:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Please AjaxSmack would you mind reading some of the refs and books provided above instead of referring to Encarta that has not got it right this time. -- Termer ( talk) 15:13, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi AjaxSmack it seems the 2 books I cited didn't do it? No problem, I looked up another ref for you: Eastern Europe: An Introduction to the People, Lands, and Culture By Richard C. Frucht ISBN:1576078000 -the 1236 Battle of Saule... dealt the Order of the Brethern of the Sword a mortal blow...becoming the Livonian branch of Teutonic Order (better known from this point onward as the Livonian Order) -- Termer ( talk) 05:04, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Is there any reason to oppose a merger of the two articles on the Livonian "orders"? Are they not about two phases of the existence of a single, continuous entity? Srnec ( talk) 15:22, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Hmm... This idea looks like a good one at first. In this book Mr. Saxton used the term "Livonian Order" for both the Livonian Brothers of the Sword and the Livonian branch of the Teutonic Order. But as we know the Livonian branch of the Teutonic Order was just a branch of an other military Order, but not a separate military order. I believe that the common name (Livonian Order) is misleading here. WP:COMMONNAME: In cases where the common name of a subject is misleading, then it is sometimes reasonable to fall back on a well-accepted alternative. This alternative could be the Livonian branch of the Teutonic Order. This variant is used in:
Also, another reason not to rename this article would be: The Teutonic Order fell into decline following its defeat in the Battle of Grunwald in 1410 , but the Livonian Order managed to maintain an independent existence ...until 1560 -- Termer ( talk) 06:33, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Order was soon restored? I hear they in Prussia were seculirized in 1525 and Poles got Ordensburg Marienburg in 1457. Unlike Livonian order that was only secularized in 1561 and formed Duchy of Courland and Semigallia. So even though Livonian order was a part of a larger international organization, Teutonic Order at the time, it had its own history and name that is widely used. Also, please stop going over articles on WP by replacing Livonian order] with "Teutonic order in Livonia". And not only because it's factually incorrect, the Livonian order was ruling not only in Livonia but also in Estonia and Courland. I don't have anything much to add to this debate, other than repeat myself, there is no good reason to rename this article.-- Termer ( talk) 03:13, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
1. the way you've put it
Teutonic Order in
Livonia instead of
Livonian Order would be ambiguous in the context since you're clearly mixing up
Livonia with
Livonian Confederation. there would be nothing wrong with saying
Teutonic Order in
Livonia since their HQ was based in the hart of Livonia, in Wenden. However Estonia and Courland were never parts of
Livonia (sorry but that would be nonsense indeed), but according to the current article naming conventions used on WP: parts of
Livonian Confederation. Now limiting the order to "in Livonia" only like you had done would exclude the orders lands in Estonia and Courland, that were , once again according to current
WP:Naming conventions parts of
Livonian Confederation not
Livonia alone.
2, 3. :*Livonian Masters of the Teutonic Order were appointed by the Grand Master of Teutonic Order.?
Like the grandmaster in Prussia, the master in Livonia was elected by his brother knights for a lifetime term. The grandmaster exercised supervisory powers,... not until 1309 did he move to Marienburg,...even later did he not limit local autonomy much, he rarely deigned to visit Livonia or even send ambassadors for oversight.
Livonian Crusade By William L Urban ISBN:0929700457, p12,14
--
Termer (
talk) 02:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
For the first part, while translating articles, please familiarize yourself with the concept of |wikifying: meaning currently in English WP " Teutonic Order in Livonia" is called Livonian Order. For the second, thank you for providing the full citation, however, the facts including equal to a command have been added already earlier to the article. and please also consider not useing such extensive direct citations on WP in the future as this is considered WP:Copyvio. Thanks!-- Termer ( talk) 06:03, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
without some sort of caption explaining what is distinct about it, that's just a picture of a suit of 15th-16th century full plate armour. unless it can be shown what its connection to the subject of the article is, it shouldn't be there. Toyokuni3 ( talk) 04:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The result of the proposal was no consensus. JPG-GR ( talk) 23:46, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Livonian Order →
Teutonic Order in Livonia or
Livonian branch of the Teutonic Order. —
The current name of this article is not clear and definetly should be changed. This military organization was not a
separate military order, as
Teutonic Order or
Order of Malta. It was just a part (although largely autonomous part) of
Teutonic Order. Moreover, the term Livonian Order is often used for the
Livonian Brothers of the Sword
[1].
The so-called
list of masters of the Livonian Order is actually the list of Teutonic masters of Livonia,
see German article. —
Albert Krantz (
talk) 17:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC).
-the
Livonian Order (until 1237 the
Order of the Knights of the Sword), @
Miniature empires By James Minahan ISBN:0313306109
-
Swordbrothers were incorporated into the German Order in 1237, henceforth known as the
Livonian Order @
The Latvians: A Short History By Andrejs Plakans
--
Termer (
talk) 02:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Please AjaxSmack would you mind reading some of the refs and books provided above instead of referring to Encarta that has not got it right this time. -- Termer ( talk) 15:13, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi AjaxSmack it seems the 2 books I cited didn't do it? No problem, I looked up another ref for you: Eastern Europe: An Introduction to the People, Lands, and Culture By Richard C. Frucht ISBN:1576078000 -the 1236 Battle of Saule... dealt the Order of the Brethern of the Sword a mortal blow...becoming the Livonian branch of Teutonic Order (better known from this point onward as the Livonian Order) -- Termer ( talk) 05:04, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Is there any reason to oppose a merger of the two articles on the Livonian "orders"? Are they not about two phases of the existence of a single, continuous entity? Srnec ( talk) 15:22, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Hmm... This idea looks like a good one at first. In this book Mr. Saxton used the term "Livonian Order" for both the Livonian Brothers of the Sword and the Livonian branch of the Teutonic Order. But as we know the Livonian branch of the Teutonic Order was just a branch of an other military Order, but not a separate military order. I believe that the common name (Livonian Order) is misleading here. WP:COMMONNAME: In cases where the common name of a subject is misleading, then it is sometimes reasonable to fall back on a well-accepted alternative. This alternative could be the Livonian branch of the Teutonic Order. This variant is used in:
Also, another reason not to rename this article would be: The Teutonic Order fell into decline following its defeat in the Battle of Grunwald in 1410 , but the Livonian Order managed to maintain an independent existence ...until 1560 -- Termer ( talk) 06:33, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Order was soon restored? I hear they in Prussia were seculirized in 1525 and Poles got Ordensburg Marienburg in 1457. Unlike Livonian order that was only secularized in 1561 and formed Duchy of Courland and Semigallia. So even though Livonian order was a part of a larger international organization, Teutonic Order at the time, it had its own history and name that is widely used. Also, please stop going over articles on WP by replacing Livonian order] with "Teutonic order in Livonia". And not only because it's factually incorrect, the Livonian order was ruling not only in Livonia but also in Estonia and Courland. I don't have anything much to add to this debate, other than repeat myself, there is no good reason to rename this article.-- Termer ( talk) 03:13, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
1. the way you've put it
Teutonic Order in
Livonia instead of
Livonian Order would be ambiguous in the context since you're clearly mixing up
Livonia with
Livonian Confederation. there would be nothing wrong with saying
Teutonic Order in
Livonia since their HQ was based in the hart of Livonia, in Wenden. However Estonia and Courland were never parts of
Livonia (sorry but that would be nonsense indeed), but according to the current article naming conventions used on WP: parts of
Livonian Confederation. Now limiting the order to "in Livonia" only like you had done would exclude the orders lands in Estonia and Courland, that were , once again according to current
WP:Naming conventions parts of
Livonian Confederation not
Livonia alone.
2, 3. :*Livonian Masters of the Teutonic Order were appointed by the Grand Master of Teutonic Order.?
Like the grandmaster in Prussia, the master in Livonia was elected by his brother knights for a lifetime term. The grandmaster exercised supervisory powers,... not until 1309 did he move to Marienburg,...even later did he not limit local autonomy much, he rarely deigned to visit Livonia or even send ambassadors for oversight.
Livonian Crusade By William L Urban ISBN:0929700457, p12,14
--
Termer (
talk) 02:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
For the first part, while translating articles, please familiarize yourself with the concept of |wikifying: meaning currently in English WP " Teutonic Order in Livonia" is called Livonian Order. For the second, thank you for providing the full citation, however, the facts including equal to a command have been added already earlier to the article. and please also consider not useing such extensive direct citations on WP in the future as this is considered WP:Copyvio. Thanks!-- Termer ( talk) 06:03, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
without some sort of caption explaining what is distinct about it, that's just a picture of a suit of 15th-16th century full plate armour. unless it can be shown what its connection to the subject of the article is, it shouldn't be there. Toyokuni3 ( talk) 04:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)