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I have moved parts of this edit to talk in case some editor think it's useful and wants to add it to this or other article after proper copyediting.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
As an ethnonym referring to the inhabitants of the entire Belarusian ethnolinguistic territory, the term "Belarusian" is of quite recent origin. In fact, before the late 19th century, Belarusians were usually called by their neighbors, and sometimes called themselves " Litviny" (based on their long association with the historical Lithuania, this is not surprising), as well as " rusiny" (particularly those of the Orthodox and Uniate as opposed to Roman Catholic faith). The Old Belarusian/Ruthenian language that functioned as the official chancellery language of the [[Grand Duchy of Lithuania]] from the 14th to the 17th centuries was called by its users " prosty ruski jazyk"/" prostaja ruskaja mova" (the simple Rus' language, in contrast to Church Slavonic, the language of the Orthodox church), although 16th-17th century Muscovite sources refer to it as either " litovskii jazyk" or " beloruskij jazyk." Interestingly, a Russian diplomat who visited Vilnius/Vilnia in the early 18th century noted in his memoirs that in the surrounding villages, some peasants spoke a " separate Lithuanian language" ( osobyj litovskij jazyk), evidently not Polish or the Belarusian dialects that Russians were accustomed to calling "Lithuanian." Incidentally, as recently as the early 20th century, ethnic Russians and Ukrainians in border regions like Smolensk and west Polesie referred to neighboring Belarusian dialect speakers as "litviny/lytvyny" and their speech as "po-litovski/po-lytovs'komu". Dal's dictionary also has an interesting example of this use of the word " litvin" by Russians to refer to Belarusians: "[[tol'ko mertvyj litvin ne dzeknet]]" ("only a dead Litvin won't say it with dzekan'e" -- dzekan'e: a fairly salient (evidently, at least to Russians) feature of Belarusian pronunciation: the pronunciation of palatalized alveolar affricates in place of palalized dental stops, e.g. Belarusian [dz"ec"i] 'children' vs. Russian [d'et'i]).
The form " Belorusec," alongside " Litvin", also shows up in 17th-century Muscovite documents in reference to the Belarusian merchants and craftsmen (both prisoners of war and voluntary emigres) who were resettled in Moscow's "Meshchanskaja sloboda" in large numbers during and after the 1654-1667 war between Muscovy and Poland-Lithuania. While Belarusian-speaking (and after the mid-17th century, mainly Polish-speaking) elites in the GDL often referred to themselves as " Litviny/Litwini", most Belarusian-speaking peasants simply identified themselves as " tutejshy" (local), and after the abolition of the Uniate Church in 1839, may have added that they were "ruskaj very" (of the Rus' faith) or "pol'skaj very" (of the Polish faith) if they happened to be Roman Catholic. The use of the term "Belarusian" for self-identification by Belarusians appears to have become common only since the early 20th century with the establishment of Belarus as a political entity (the [[Belarusian Democratic Republic]] (1918) and the BSSR (1922)). Significantly, in those parts of the Belarusian ethnolinguistic territory that lie outside the borders of the modern Belarusian state, for example the southern Vilnius region in Lithuania, the western Smolensk and Brjansk regions of Russia, and the Bialystok region of Poland, the percentage of Belarusian dialect speakers of local origin, whether Orthodox or Catholic, who identify themselves as Belarusians is quite small, probably less than 10% in the first two regions, and no more than 20% in the latter.
Current version of "article" is an original research and representing some sort of fringe theory. External links and "sources" like [1] [2] etc. not even close to the required criteria of reliable sources and actually is some sort of extreme nationalistic ones, which advocates to rename "State of Belarus" to Lithuania (!). Wikipedia is required that only high quality material should be presented, therefore per WP:RS,OR and WP:FRINGE I converting this "article" to previous disambiguation. M.K. ( talk) 08:20, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Thinking about it, this article should probably moved to something like Litvin (Historical context) and then linked to from the Litvin (disambiguation) page. Hopefully this would clarify this mess up. radek ( talk) 09:15, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Mess = People replacing this article with the disambig article, deleting all the text in the process. Piotrus, if you think this is the primary usage then I think as it is right now it's fine, just the disambig article needs to be clear. radek ( talk) 17:49, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Nor google books [5] neither google scholar search [6] presents English usage of the current spelling of the article name, although it does present family names in abundance. I hope everyone will agree, that this is English Wikipedia?-- Lokyz ( talk) 19:06, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
To the author of the article: I’d like to offer some substantial corrections + a bunch of historical examples, so as to provide better understanding of who Litvins were. First of all, this denomination never served to identify a Baltic ethnicity ONLY. It always, since the very beginning was used to determine what we now call Lithuanians and Belarusians. It was a super-ethnical term. It is likely, that the term itself is of Slavic origin (mind the ending: -in). It was used to determine the dwellers of the Great Duchy of Lithuania, as of the 13th century, both (modern) Lithuanians and Belarusians. There was no such term as “Belarusian” in the Middle Ages, and all the Belarusian were called “Litvins” from 13th to 19th cent. In the 16th century (at the peak of Grand Dutchy’s might), there’s no any doubt, that ALL, who were called Litvins, spoke the Belarusian language. The Belarusian language (in the process of forming in 13-15 cc.) was the only language ever used by dukes and lords of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, until the end of the 14th century, when Latin added (fulfilling minor tasks of international correspondence). The Belarusian language was always used in all spheres of the governmental activities of GDL, including the laws of the state, where the rights of “Litvins” are stated.
The Second Statute of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania of 1566 (in the Belarusian language) states:
“Въ томъ панстве Великомъ Князстве Литовскомъ и во всихъ земляхъ ему прислухаючыхъ достойностей духовныхъ и свецкихъ городовъ дворовъ и кгрунтовъ староствъ въ держаньи и пожываньи и вечностей жадных чужоземцомъ и заграничникомъ ани суседомъ таго панства давати не имаемъ; але то все мы и потомки наши Великіе Князи Литовскіе давати будуть повинни только Литве а Руси, родичомъ старожитнымъ и врожонцамъ Великаго Князства Литовского (…..) А хотя бы хто обчого народу за свое заслуги въ той речы посполитой пришолъ ку оселости зъ ласки и данины нашое, албо которымъ иншимъ правомъ; тогды таковые толко оселости оное ужывати мають будучы обывателемъ обецнымъ Великаго Князства и служачы службу земскую томужъ панству. Але на достоенства и всякій врядъ духовный и свецкій не маеть быти обиранъ, ани отъ насъ Господаря ставленъ, толко здавна продковъ своихъ уроженецъ Великого Князства Литовского Л и т в и н ъ и Русинъ».
(“In our state of Grand Duchy of Lithuania and in all of its lands, we (the Sovereign) shall grant any ranks and positions … to Litva (i.d. to Litvins) and to Russia (i.d. to Russians) only, who are ancient dwellers and natives of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. … To any offices and appointments, only those shall be appointed by us, the Sovereign, who are ancient natives of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania – L i t v i n and Rusin (Ruthen)”.
During the times of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (1240-1795) all the modern “Belarusians” (the term itself come to a wide usage in tzar Russia, in the 19th century only) were called Litvins. And, by the way, only small part of modern Lithuanians were called “Litvins” in the GDL, as the entire half of them was called “Zhemoit” (Zhemaitia, Zhmudz – Samogitia), which is of common knowledge. And that half of the modern Lithanian folk, called Zhomoit, was not even regarded a native nation of the GDL in the Statutes, as Litvins and Russians were, and Zhomoit itself did not identified themselves with Litvins – which can be illustrated by many drastic examples.
Belarusians were called Litvins also after the times of the GDL, in the 19th century as well, which can be illustrated by the whole Russian 19th century literature. In any Russian book of the first half of the 19th century, a “Litvin” would mean a Belarusian (mind such authors as Pushkin and Turgenev). Ukranians called Belarusians “Litvins” until the 1940-s, which is illustrated by many folklore sayings. Dwellers of Bryansk and Kursk regions of Russia (bordering on Belarus), and of Bialystok region of Poland would call Belarusians “Litvins” all through the 19th century.
The point is, that the original name – which is “Litvin”, testified by so many medieval sources – is not ever-ever used by modern Lithuanians, who call themselves “lietuviai”, I don’t know for which reasons. They seem to give away the name for oblivion. Meanwhile, the name enjoys its revival in Belarus, where many prefer to be named “Litvins” and to identify themselves with the GDL, so more, it is widely known that Belarusians were called Litvins in the times of GDL, and contributed to almost all aspects of its culture. By the way, the surname “Litvin”, and its derivatives (Litvinchuk, Litvinok, Litvinov) are traditionally extremely frequent in Belarus. Meanwhile, there is no such surnames in modern Lithuania at all.
Let’s look at some examples of the historical Litvins. A statement about “Litvins” being a name of a Baltic ethnicity is totally incorrect, as the name embraced both Slavs and Balts at the time.
There is baron named “Luka Litvin” as early as in 1267 at the court of the Lithuanian Duke Dovmont, who was the ruler of Pskov since 1265. (Luka is an orthodox Christian name, popular with Slavs). So, what we see – is a person with an orthodox Christian name and, probably, a surname “Litvin”.
(Воскресенская летопись. ПСРЛ, т.7. М., 2001. с.166)
Yes, certainly, there are plenty of person with Baltic names called Litvins in the 13th century, including the very sovereigns of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, but there are Slavic person called “Litvins” as well.
Although the modern Lithuanians claim they were called “lietuviai” already at those times, and that even there were no “Litvins” at all (!), that’s incorrect. The first grand duke of the GDL, Mindaug (ruled 1240-1263), called himself “rex L i t w i n o r u m ” (duke of Litwins) in his Latin letters. (РЛА, №122).
Lithuanian grand duke Viten (ruled 1294-1316) was also called “rex Litwinorum” in Latin sources. Peter of Duisburg (ca. 1326) depicted a crusader’s raid onto Litvins near Grodno in 1295:
“…five brothers (crusaders) and 150 men from Sambia and Nattangia went on a raid to the castle of Grodno (a city in modern Belarus); and when they c a m e c l o s e, they desired to dismount and to go down the Neman (river) on ships; they devastated a village of L i t v i n s on the riverbank there, killed and captured many people, and moved on”.
So, in 1295 a village of Litvins was situated near Grodno, where Slavic population dwelled.
“Vilno martyrs” of 1347 were, no doubt, Slavs. Their names were Kumec, Kruglec and Nezhilo, which are distinct Slavic names, and they were naperers at the court of the Lithuanian grand duke Olgerd in Vilno. The chronicles said that “Kruglec, Kumec and Nezhilo were born of Litva”; “their L i t h u a n i a n names were Kruglec, Kumec, Nezhilo”.
(Darius Baronas. Trys Vilniaus kankiniai: gyvenimas ir istorija. Aidai, Vilnius, 2000)
A Vilno prelate Matej (Matthew), according to a 1422 document, was a born Litvin (“venerabilem virum magistrum Mathiam origine Lytwanum”). However the Lithuanian grand duke Vitovt made a purposeful statement of Matej’s being appropriate for a position of Samogitian (modern Lietuva) bishop in Medniki (modern Varniai), for Matej had “a satisfactory command of the Samogitian dialect” (i.e. of what is now called the Lithuanian language) (“ac de ydiomate Samagitico sufficintissime institutum”). This never occurred with Litvins - bishops in the Belarusian lands (i.e. there are no any statements that they experienced any language troubles in, e.g. Krevo, Navahradak or Lida). This says, that normally Litvins did not have any command of the Samogitian dialect, even on a satisfactory level.
The second cathlic bishop of Vilno was also a Litvin – Jacub (Jan’s son) Plichta ([jakub plihta]), who died on February 2, 1407. The documents testify of him as of a distinct Litvin, from the nation and language of Litva (“Johannis dicti Plychta … viro vicarium Lythuanie, eiusdemque nacionis et lingue”). His name, father’s name and surname are distinctly Slavic.
(Codex epistolaris Vitoldi, pp. 60-61, 103).
By the way, no other documents, than in the Belarusian language are known of the Lithuanian grand duke Vitovt (1392-1430), as well as of Jagailo (1382-1392), Olgerd (1345-1377), Keistut (co-ruled 1345-1382), and other dukes and barons of medieval Lithuania (with the exeption of Latin letters, found in international correspondence).
A Russian chronicle gives a list of “Lithuanian” dukes, who perished in the battle of Vorskla on August 12, 1399: “These are the names of the Lithuanian dukes, who perished: Andrey Olgerdovich of Polock (a Belarusian town), Dmitry Olgerdovich of Bryansk (a Russian town), Ivan Dmitrievich Kindyr, Andrey Dmitrievich, Ivan Evlashkovich, Leon Koriadovich, Michailo Vasylievich, his brother Semen Vasylievich, Michailo Podberezsky, his brother Alexander, Fedor Patrikeevich Rylsky, Andrey of Druck (a Belarusian town), Mont Toluntovich, Ivan Yuryevich Belsky…”.
This is one of many examples, where there are so many Slavic names.
(Патриаршая или Никоновская летопись. - ПСРЛ, т. 11. М.: 2000. с. 174).
The enlightener and Roman Pope Aneus Silvius Piccolomini wrote in 1458, that Litvins speak a Slavic language. Such European scientists as Hertman Schedel (in his “World Cronicon”, 1493), Jan Norich (in “Decachyston”, 1511), Jan of Bohemia (in “Omnius Gentes Mores”, 1538) and an Austrian diplomat Sigismund Herberstein (in “History of Moscovia”, 1549) wrote of Litva (Lithuania) as of a Slavic country, and alltogether considered the Lithuanian language a Slavic language.
Herberstein wrote in 1549: “…the bison is called by Litvins in their language “Suber” (“zubr” is the bison in the Belarusian language); “the beast, called by Litvins in their language “Loss”, is called Ellend in German (elk, “los” in Belarusian); “the Sovereign assignes a governor there, whom they (Litvins) in their language call “Starosta”” (a name of an office in Belarusian).
A world known enlightener and cultural icon Francisk Skorina from Polock (who introduced book printing in Belarus and Russia in 1514) registered at the Krakov University as a “Litvin” in 1505.
A famous revolutionary activist and a national hero of the USA – Tadeusz Koscioszko (born near Brest, Belarus) – appealed to his companions: “Am I not your fellow countryman? Am I not a Litvin?..”. In his letter to the Russian tzar Kosciuszko wrote: “I was born a Litvin…”.
A world-famous poet Adam Mickewicz (who was born and dwelled near and in Navahradak – in Grodno region of Belarus) appealed to his native land as “O Litva (Lithuania)! My homeland!”.
The founder of the modern Belarusian dramaturgy and one of the fathers of the modern Belarusian language, Vincent Dunin-Marcinkevicz (1808-1884), considered himself to have been raised “among Litvins” (he was raised near Bobruisk and Minsk, in Belarus).
(Дунін-Марцінкевіч В. Збор твораў. Мн., 1958. С.362.)
A famous scientist, a national hero of Chili, Ignat Domeiko (born near Navahradak), wrote of “our Litvins” (in his book “My Travels”), embracing both Belarusian barons and peasantry of his times with the term. Domeiko’s Diploma (at Krakow University, 1887) was granted to “…a noble man Ignat Domeiko, a Litvin…”.
A Russian world-famous 19th century classic writer, Fedor Dostoevsky (whose ancestors came from Dostoevo estate near Pinsk) wrote: “my ancestors come from Lithuanian swamps…”.
You might incorporate something of this, which you find interesting, into your article. Regards,
195.50.1.122 (
talk)
14:29, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, but this person not telling the truth:
1. Although the modern Lithuanians claim they were called “lietuviai” already at those times, and that even there were no “Litvins” at all (!), that’s incorrect. The first grand duke of the GDL, Mindaug (ruled 1240-1263), called himself “rex L i t w i n o r u m ” (duke of Litwins) in his Latin letters. (РЛА, №122).
He quote letter, which is officaly acknowledged as fake: "Міндаў, кароль Літовіі, у дакумэнтах і сьведчаньнях = Mindowe, rex Lithowiae, in litteris et testimoniis. Укл. А. Жлутка. Менск, 2005": "Як і варыянт а, лічыцца пазьнейшым фальсыфікатам...".
2.Lithuanian grand duke Viten (ruled 1294-1316) was also called “rex Litwinorum” in Latin sources.
"Cristianar um Eodem anno Vithenus filius rеgis Lethowie cum" " Austechiam terram rеgis Lethowie", " Nee unquam lemporibus suis rex Lethowie" "succumberent Anno domini MCCXCVIII Vithenus rex Lethowinorum ad vocacionem civium Rigеnsium " "Sed rex Lethowie" "Anno domini MCCCXI in carnlsprivio Vithenus rex Lethowie" "Eodem anno in vigilia palmarum Vithenus rex Lethowie putans" "Eodem anno mense Septembri Vithenus rex Lethowinorum " http://books.google.com/books?id=YX8OAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA156&dq=terram+regis+Lethowie#v=onepage&q=&f=false
As you can see where is no any "rex Litwinorum".
3. Peter of Duisburg (ca. 1326) depicted a crusader’s raid onto Litvins near Grodno in 1295: “…five brothers (crusaders) and 150 men from Sambia and Nattangia went on a raid to the castle of Grodno (a city in modern Belarus); and when they c a m e c l o s e, they desired to dismount and to go down the Neman (river) on ships; they devastated a village of L i t v i n s on the riverbank there, killed and captured many people, and moved on”. So, in 1295 a village of Litvins was situated near Grodno, where Slavic population dwelled.
"Anno d mini MCCXCV feria YI ante diem pentecostes v fratres et centum quin quaginta viri de Sambia et Nattangia equitaverunl versus castrum Gartham et dum appropinquarent plncuit eis ut remissis equis navigio Memelam descen derent ubi in lilore quadam villa Lеthowinorum occisis et captis pluribus ho minibus deprédala iterum processerunt Sed infideles hoc videntes ármala"
Again you can see form "Lеthowinorum" but no any "Litwin". 195.182.70.130 ( talk)kutis —Preceding undated comment added 10:22, 20 August 2009 (UTC).
OK, I've made it. Mr. Altenmann, how do you like it?
Mr. Altenmann, please, won't you correct the grammar, if you are a native speaker? Thank you. 195.50.1.122 ( talk) 10:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Very funny, in the Letter of Kazimir belorussians from Polock and Vitebsk not mentioned as litvins, but here you writting that they "litvins" too.
Also strange, that form "litvin" was never mentioned in belorussian and ukrainian chronicles and letters of 12-14 century. "Litvins" shows only then Jogelo became king of Poland, so it's not belorussian historical form, but linguistic form from polish language.
Even know this form is in polish language. 80.240.12.146 ( talk) 09:57, 22 August 2009 (UTC) man.
Sorry, but habitants of Polock and Vitebsk are called as „rusins“, not „litvins“.
Luka Litvin was mentioned in chronicle of the 16 century.
Fact, where is no chronicles (Ipavet, Novgorod chronicles) or letters until union with Poland of 1386 where will be mentioned „litvins“ in rusins chronicles of 10-14 century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.182.70.130 ( talk) 07:28, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Lets talk about real facts, not childish theory about „bad russians“ .
Then you find your Luka Litvin in the others chronicles of 13-14, then talk about real person.
Your Russian source have one notice: для прочтения и зашифрованных мест во всех четырех дошедших до нас списках послания, из которых два принадлежат XV в., а два — рубежу XV и XVI вв.
So, they not real source of 14 century, just later copies. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
88.223.26.210 (
talk)
15:19, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
And what they did? Rewrite everywhere „Litovcy“ instead of „litvin“? Very funny.
I don‘t see any source of 13-14 with „litvin“, I see that you mentioned some sources which is fake (letter of Mindaug) and later sources of 15-18 century.
Very interesting thing: In agreement between Jagelo, Kestutis, Liubart with king of Poland Kazimir of the year 1352 you can find this quote: „кнѧзии̇ литовьскыхъ“. So why not „Litvin dukes“? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.182.70.130 ( talk) 10:36, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
I suggest some quotations from Aleksander Brückner's works should be added to this article. CityElefant ( talk) 15:01, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
The article is so WP:OR'ish that it is on the verge of deletion. I had ahope it would improve over time, but I've lost the hopes. It is becoming some propaganda vehicle, that does not have anything to do with WP:RS and WP:V. Either you like or not the academic historians, is of no matter, but one should not turn Wikipedia intosome sort of forum, where anyone does interpret sources likely like transcribing Latin Lituania into L itva. Official English nme for Lithuanian is well, Lithuania. -- Lokyz ( talk) 09:45, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
195.182.70.130 ( talk)How do you think, Budivid-Afrika and so on, in Latin version of Statute, what term you find? Litvin? Kutis —Preceding undated comment added 11:35, 3 September 2009 (UTC).
“Litvin – is the Slavic name for people living in Lithuania, and means Lithuanian in the Lithuanian (Lietuvis), Polish (Litwin), and Russian (Литвин) languages. It was applied earlier to all people living in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, and later the Lithuanian part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. As this area was primarily comprised of Lithuanians and Ruthenians, Litvini was the designated term for the inhabitants of this territory, by Slavic speaking peoples.” -------– Litvin is a Slavonic form of Lithuanian. So I can’t understand why we should create different articles. Should I create article about Lituanos, Lietuviai, Litouwers and Litovcy in English Wikipedia? The name became „Litvin“ because Ruthenians didn‘t have diphthong. Thats how Vytautas became Vitovt, Kaunas – Cowno, Lietuvis – Litvin, Jaunutis – Jawnut. As we see, it is enought to apply only one rule and everything became clear.
“In this our state of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and in all of its lands, we [the Sovereign] shall grant any ranks and positions … to Lithuania and to Russia only, who are ancient dwellers and natives of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. … To any offices and appointments, only those shall be appointed by us, the Sovereign, who are ancient natives of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, those are – Lithuanian and Ruthenian”[1].What nation was named "Lithuanians" here, is explained by the author of the Statutes of Lithuania, Lew Sapieha, in a corresponding article of the Lithuanian Statute:"...it is not in any foreign language, but in the language of our own, that we have our rights written"[2]. –------ So, as we see difference between Lithuanians and Ruthenians are. And, I cant imagine where do You see explanation of Sapieha about who is Lithuanians. So, this part must be deleted because: 1) Lithuanians and Ruthenians were separated again, 2) There are no explanation of Sapieha.
The Ukranians called Belarusians “Litvins” until the 1940-s, which can be illustrated by still existing folklore sayings. Dwellers of Bryansk and Kursk regions of Russia (bordering on Belarus), and of Bialystok region of Poland would call Belarusians “Litvins” all through the 19th century and even up to nowadays. -----– Possible. For Ukrainians territory of Belarus was territory of Grand Duchy of Lithuania from old times. So they really could use that name. As Lithuanians still use all name of Goths to describe Belorussian. And that name appears in Lithuanian documents of Grand Duchy of Lithuania: “Mes Wladislaus / Ketwirtassis Isch Diewo Malo= nes / Karalius Lenku / Diddisis Kunigaikschtis Lietuwniku / Guddu / Prusu / Mo= suriu / Szemaicziu / Inflantůsa / Smolenska / Czernichowa etc. Priegtam ir Schwe= du / Gothu / bei Wandalu Tewiksztinis Karalius etc.” (We, Wladyslaw, IV, By the Grace of God, King of Poles, Grand Duke of Lithuanians, Gudai(Ruthenians), Prussians, Mosurians, Samogytians, etc, etc”. So as we see Ruthenians are separated from Lithuanians again. ( http://lietuvos.istorija.net/lituanistica/wladislaus1639.htm ). Our folk songs also says “gudai”.
It should be stressed, that the original form of the name is the form “Litwin”, which occurs in all medieval historical sources[6]. No any forms as “lietuva”, “lietuviai”, “litowcy” etc. occur in any medieval source. –------ Lie again. I’ve already posted one example and can add more. http://www.epaveldas.lt/vbspi/biRecord.do?biRecordId=980 – it is Lithuanian book of 1653. And there we can see written “Bažnyčioms Didės Kunigystės Lietuwos išduota“ it means „For the churches of Grand Duchy of Lithuania“. Of course, it is not medieval source, but i want to remind that no one medieval Lithuanian text reached us. (First texts in Lithuanian are of XVI c.)
“Litwins” come to be widely known in sources as of the formation of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (ca. 1240’s), as a denomination of Lithuanians and part of Belarus. The first Grand Duke of Lithuania Mindaugas himself signed in his Latin letters as “rex Litwinorum”[7] (“duke of Litwins”)Template:Dubiuos.During the 1210’s, a duke Dovgerd (who, after some scholars[8] might have been Mindaugas father) is known, as “one of the most powerful of Lithuanians”[9]. Some scholars made suggestions, that Dovgerd might have his residence in Oshmiany [10] or Vilna[11].In 1267 a baron named Luka Litvin[12] was present at the court of a Lithuanian duke Daumantas, who was the ruler of Pskov since 1265. (Luka is an orthodox Christian name, popular with Slavs). Probably, “Litvin” existed as a surname already in those times.Lithuanian grand duke Vytenis (ruled 1294-1316) was called “rex Lethowinorum” (“duke of Lithuanians”) in Latin sources. Peter of Duisburg (ca. 1326) depicted a crusader’s raid onto Lithuanians near Hrodna in 1295[13]: “…five brothers (crusaders) and 150 men from Sambia and Nattangia went on a raid to the castle of Hrodna; and when they came close, they wished to dismount and go down the Neman on ships; they devastated a village of Lithuanians [Lethowinorum] on the riverbank there, killed and captured many people, and moved on”. (In 1295, a village of Lithuanians was situated near Hrodna). –------ So, as You see, not Litwins, but Litwinorum, Lethowinorum, etc. But it is just names of Lithuanian in other languages.
Vilnius martyrs of 1347 were, no doubt, Slavs.[citation needed] Their names were Kumec, Kruglec and Nezhilo, which are distinct Slavic names, and they were naperers at the court of the Lithuanian grand duke Algirdas in Vilnius. The chronicles said that[14]: “Kruglec, Kumec and Nezhilo were born in Lithuania”; “their Lithuanian names were Kruglec, Kumec, Nezhilo”. –----- What do You want to say with this? Pagan Lithuanian duke with Lithuanian name, killed those ortodox with Slavonic names. So what does it prove?
A Vilnius prelate Matthew, according to a 1422 document, was a born Lithuanian (“venerabilem virum magistrum Mathiam origine Lytwanum”). However the Lithuanian grand duke Vytautas made a purposeful statement on Matthew's being appropriate for a position of the bishop of Samogitia in Medninkai (nowadays Varniai), as Matej had “a satisfactory command of the Samogitian dialect” (“ac de ydiomate Samagitico sufficintissime institutum”[16]). The second catholic bishop of Vilnius was also a Lithuanian – Jacub (Jan’s son) Plichta ([jakub plihta]), who died on February 2, 1407. The documents testify of him as of a distinct Lithuanian, from the nation and language of Lithuania (“Johannis dicti Plychta … viro vicarium Lythuanie, eiusdemque nacionis et lingue”[16]). –----- I can’t understand this again. What do You mean? Maybe its just a manner to make text longer?
A Russian chronicle gives a list of Lithuanian dukes, who perished in the battle of Vorskla on August 12, 1399[17]: “These are the names of the Lithuanian dukes, who perished: Andrey Olgerdovich of Polock, Dmitry Olgerdovich of Bryansk, Ivan Dmitrievich Kindyr, Andrey Dmitrievich, Ivan Evlashkovich, Leon Koriadovich, Michailo Vasylievich, his brother Semen Vasylievich, Michailo Podberezsky, his brother Alexander, Fedor Patrikeevich Rylsky, Andrey of Druck, Mont Toluntovich, Ivan Yuryevich Belsky…”. –------ And what does it mean? Sons of Algirdas really took East Christianity and adopted Slavonic culture when they ruled Ruthenian lands. There must be also said: “And said Andrey Olgerdovich for his brother Dmitry: we are two brothers – Songs of Olgierd, Grandsons of Edimant[Gediminas], and descendants of Skolomend” Thoose names are Baltic.
The enlightener and Roman Pope Aneus Silvius Piccolomini wrote in 1458, that Lithuanians speak a Slavic language[18]. Such European scientists as Hertman Schedel (in his “World Cronicon”, 1493), Jan Norich (in “Decachyston”, 1511[19]), Jan of Bohemia (in “Omnius Gentes Mores”, 1538[20]) and an Austrian diplomat Sigismund Herberstein (in “History of Moscovia”, 1549) wrote of Litva (Lithuania) as of a Slavonic country, and altogether considered the Lithuanian language a Slavic language. ------------– Of course, foreigners could be confused. For example Johannes Boemus Aubanus(not Jan of Bohemia, like you mentioned) just repeated what Piccolomini had written earlier. But the true that Piccolomini never knew Lithuanian language and never has been there. But even there Johannes Boemus Aubanus separate nations: “Aliae Graeco ritu sacra peragunt, vt Bulgari, Rutheni, et ex Lithuanis plerique. Nonnullae ab his diuersae proprias haereses habent, vt Boemi sunt, Moraui et Bosnienses. Hussitarum quaedam obseruant delirium: pars multo maxima Manicheum: quaedam adhuc etiam gentili caecitate tenentur, idola colunt, quemadmodum multi ex Lithuanis”.Sigismund Herberstein, as foreigner, could easily confuse. And of course, even today we have lot of words that came from Slavonic languages. So that’s why we have to use local sources. For example: Michalo Lituanus – Lithuanian humanist, activist, diplomat – writes: “ We take mascovian sciense, that has nothing ancient and can’t wake up virtues, because RUTHENIAN LANGUAGE IS ALIEN FOR US, LITHUANIANS, hoc est Italians, from Italian blood. [Cum idioma Ruthenum alienum sit a nobis Lituanis, hoc est, Italianis, Italico sanguine oriundis]. Then he add Latin words that are similar to Lithuanian. I will write Latin text and I will add Lithuanian translation in brackets. “[…] extinctus est per baptismatis vndam vgnis(Lithuanian word ugnis, as we know Latin “v” could be read as “u”), id est, ignis. Etenim et ignis(ugnis), et vnda(vanduo), aer(oras), sol(saulė), mensis(mėnesis), dies(diena), noctis(naktis), ros(rasa), aurora(aušra), dues(dievas), vir(vyras), deuir, i.e. leuir(dieveris), Nepotis(Nepotis), neptis( anūkė), tu(tu), tuus(tavas), meus(mano), suus(savo), levis(lengvas), tenuis(tėvas), vivus(gyvas), juvenis(jaunas), vetustus,senis(senas), oculus(akis), auris(ausis), nasus(nosis), dentes(dantys), gentes(gentys), sta(stok), sede(sėdėk), verte(versk),inverte(įversk), perverte(perversk), aratum(artų), occatum(akėtų), satum(sėtų), semen(sėmenys), lens(lęšis), linum(linai), canapum(kanapės), avena(aviža), pecus(pėkus), ovis(avis), anguis(angis), ansa(ąsa), corbis(gurbas), axis(ašis), rota(ratas), jugum(jungas), pondus(pundas), culeus(kūlė), callis (kelias), cur(kur), nunc(nūnai), tractus(trauktas), intractus(įtrauktas), pertractus(pertrauktas), extractus(ištrauktas), merctus(merktas), immerctus(įmerktas), sutus(siūtas), insutus(įsiūtas), versus(verstas), inversus(įverstas), perversus(perverstas), primus(pirmas), unus(vienas), duo (du), tres(trys), quatuor(keturi), quinque(penki), sex(šeši), septem(septyni), et pleraque alia, idem significant Lituano sermone quod et Latino(and lot of other words in Lithuanian language mean the same like in Latin." So as we see he was Lithuanian that could feel clear distinction between Lithuanians and Ruthenians, and between Lithuanian language and Ruthenian. Marcin Kromer – Polish historian humanist. Who finished academy of Cracow, studied in Padua and Bologna and later worked as secretary for Sigismund Augustus, and looks like, lived in Vilnius where helped to organise library for King – wrote: thoose lands now are ruled by Livonians, Samogytians, Lithuanians and Prussians. Thoose nations difference by rules, and by the form of government, but use almost the same language, ABSOLUTELY DIFFERENT FROM SLAVONIC...“ Alexander Guagnini – Italian, who was born in 1538 in Verona, in 1561 he came to Poland, from here he was sent to army of Lithuania and from 1561-1579 served in garrison of Vitebsk of Grand Duchy of Lithuania, partaken in Livonian wars – in his “Kronika Sarmacyi Europskiej” wrote: “As we have already spoken in the description of Polish kings, until the times of Wladyslaw Jagiello – King of Poles and Grand Duke of Lithuanians – whole people of LITHUANIANS AND SAMOGYTIANS NATION(wszyscy obywatele narodu litewskiego I žmudzkiego) – worshiped lot of Gods….”. Also he wrote: “they worshiped as the god also the thunder, that in them language they call him Perkunos”. I want to remind that Slavic people call him “Pierun”. Maciej Stryjkowski – historian and poet, who came to Lithuania until 1565, served for Lithuanian army, made lot of trips, lived in palaces of Chodkiewicz, later was parson in Jurbarkas, lived in Varniai, Jurbarkas – describing the old religion of Lithuanians, Samogytians and Prussians wrote: “There, to the honor of Perkunas either Prussians, and Samogytians, and Lithuanians for all days and nights fired eternal fire..” and “They worshiped him very much, - every Samogytian, Lithuanian and Prussian kept grass-snake at home…”. Later he describes those Gods of “Lithuanians, Samogytians, Semba, Latvians and Prussians”, and those are: “Okopirmnos, Swajtestix, Auschlavis, Atrimpos, Protrimpos, Gardoajtis, Pergrubius, Pilwitos, Perkunos or Piorunos, Poklus”. Then he describes the most special “gods of Lithuanians and Samogytians”, and they are: Prokorimos, Raguczis, Ziemiennik, Krummie Pradziu Warpu, Lituwanis, Chaurirari, Sotwaros, Seimi Dewos, Upinis Dewos, Bubilos, Dzidzis Lado, Gulbi Dziewos, Goniglis Dziewos, Swieczpunscynis, Kielu Dziewos, Puschajtis. As we see, he already knew how close thoose nations were. Jan Laciscki(~1534-1599) – historian, bibliographer, schoolmaster – who lived in Vilnius during his childhood and from about 1581 until his death wrote: “[..]Samogytia, because it is close to the sea is named “Lowland”, and Lithuania “Highland”; the language of Lithuanians and Samogytians is almost the same, almost the same are, also, dressing and religion.” And really, until today we use those words like Žemaitija and Aukštaitija. While Žemas in Lithuania means “low”, Aukštas means “high”. As we see, only those “scientist” who has never been in Lithuania, didn’t know language, was confused, and those who lived in Lithuania or WERE Lithuanians clearly showed who is who. Grand Duke of Lithuania – Vytautas – in 1420 wrote about Samogytia: “it was always one and the same Lithuania, because there is one language and the same people. But because Samogytia(Samaytarum in the letter) is Lowland, that’s why it is names Samaytarum, because it is a name of Lowland in Lithuania. And Samogytians(Samoyte in the letter) call Lithuania as Auxstote, id est Higher land from the view of Samogytians. Also, the people of Samogytia has never named themselves as Samogytians, but only as Lithuanians, and because of this identity in our letter we don’t write about Samagicia, because everything is the same, one land and the same people”
A known Polish revolutionary activist and a national hero of Poland and the USA – Tadeusz Kosciuszko (born near Brest, Belarus) – appealed to his companions: “Am I not your fellow countryman? Am I not a Litvin?..”. In his letter to the Russian tzar Kosciuszko wrote: “I was born a Litvin…”. –----- So what? If he wrote in Polish he had to use Polish word that means Lithuanians.
A world-famous Polish poet Adam Mickewicz (who was born and dwelled near and in Navahradak – in Grodno region of Belarus) appealed to his native land as “O Litva! My homeland!..”. –----- The same. If he write in Polish he has to use Polish word that means Lithuania. Don’t forget that the same Mickiewicz wrote: “Lithuanian nation, consisting of Lithuanian, Prussian, Latvian tribes…” It is very important, I think. He clearly let to understand that it is different tribe from Slavonic.
So, as we see, we can make few conclusions: 1) The article is full of lie that no one used name of “Lietuva” and other forms of Lithuanians, but just Litvins. 2) The “scientists” whom links are showed are unreliable because they weren’t connected to Lithuanians like those I presented. 3) Litvin is just Slavonic name of Lithuanian and Ruthenians were always excluded. Of course, Ruthenians could name themselves as Lithuanians in the meaning of citizenship. But it is the same situation today. 4) This article is unnecessary, because in this way we can create hundreds of articles about Lithuanians in English wikipedia with just different names.
So. My baggage of examples is still not empty and I’m prepared to discuss more -- User:Egisz , 17:17, 03 September, 2009 (UTC)
Mr. Egisz, I really am feeling sorry for you, as you're chewing again and again some propaganda fantasies, which were proven a stupid joke long-long ago. We have dozens of people like you on tut.by who just are coming in dozens and asking the same questions, and we show to them that their questions are just another occasion for us to take a good laugh, nothing more:
1) "Litvin is a Slavonic form of Lithuanian" - Yeah, really? I'm really laghing out loudly!... Maybe, you, as my wise adviser, will show me ANY OTHER forms of the name in the overall volume of the official documents of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, except for "Litvin"?... This is really hilariuos. Maybe you know any other form of the name in all the medieval sources, different from Литвин, Litwin, Lithuani - I'd fancy looking at that. You seem not to know at all, that the main official document of the GDL, the Statute, written in the old Belarusian language, names the duchy citizens - Litvin. And you fancied, why the Statute was NEVER translated to your language (what is nowadays called "Lithuanian")? And there was never another name in the GDL, except for Litvin?... lol. I'm leaving you quarrying in your "baggage" and I switch to another question.
2) "So I can’t understand why we should create different articles." - You might try to actually read the article, and you'll understand, that it's not about modern Lithuanians, but about the historical phenomenon "Litvins", which embraced in the past both part of nowadays Lithuanians and Belarusians.
"The name became „Litvin“ because Ruthenians didn‘t have diphthong." - Yeah, really? You seem to have a prophetic vision, and travelling with a time machine, just like Baranauskas. Could you show me, when it "BECAME"?.. The first mentionings are all of "Litvins". We don't have any lietuviai at all during the Middle ages. First, show me any mentionings of "lietuviai" in medieval sources, then talk of "becoming" from one to the other... By the way, Belarusians do have diphthongs - in all the named words: Vitaut, Kouna, Jaunut - we have diphthongs. By the way, "kounia" means forge shop in Old Belarusian, that's why the town was named so. You really thought it was your name?...
3) "So, as we see difference between Lithuanians and Ruthenians are." - And so? If there's a difference, then Litvins are necessarily nothing but ethnic Balts? Eventhough, the main official document of the state is written in the Belarusian language, of which the Lithuanian chancellor Lew Sapieha says, that the Statute was written "in OUR OWN language"? lol. Moscovites also regarded Litvins (i.e. Belarusians from Mogilev, Minsk) as foreigners in 1654, and regarded their "Lithuanian" (Belarusian language) as a foreign language...
"And, I cant imagine where do You see explanation of Sapieha about who is Lithuanians." - If you can't see this, then you are really stupid. I'll try: the LITHUANIAN chancellor (actually, the second person in the state after the grand duke) is writing in the LITHUANIAN Statute (written in the Belarusian language), that this Statute is being written "not in any foreign language, but in the language OF OUR OWN".
And all that - regarding, there are totally no any documents or even a couple of words in modern Lithuanian in all official documents of the GDL throughout all its 5-century history.
4) "And that name appears in Lithuanian documents of Grand Duchy of Lithuania: “Mes Wladislaus " - I'm already seek and tired of that, we have already repeated that dozens of times: this "document" is not a document by Wladislav, because there's no his personal signature, and his stamp; and ALL the official documents of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, all the grand duke's decrees were provided with the grand duke's signature and stamp. And this letter is just an unauthorized TRANSLATION, made by noone-know-whom, somewhere in Prussia (beyond the territory of the GDL), and has nothing to do with the official grand duke's chancellor' office at all. It was not even authorized by anyone. Its legal force is null. It's just a piece of paper with words on it. It has the same legal force, as any piece of paper, where some peasant from Prussia or Germany would write his erotic fantasies about the grand duke...
I'm too tired to discuss further. What I've read further is just some kind of delirium. I think, what I've already said is enough. And your "baggage" really needs to be revised. I think that will be enough for you. Good luck. Rasool-3 ( talk) 07:48, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
And why your Sapieha never mentioned that Statut language is “litvin” language, but “rusin” language, maybe because hi was rusin?
For the rest, I recommend very deeply check his writings I catch him cheating with sources. Kutis
Yeah, really? I'm really laghing out loudly!... Maybe, you, as my wise adviser, will show me ANY OTHER forms of the name in the overall volume of the official documents of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, except for "Litvin"?... This is really hilariuos. Maybe you know any other form of the name in all the medieval sources, different from Литвин, Litwin, Lithuani - I'd fancy looking at that.
Looks like you are blind or just don’t want to see. I showed you few examples. For example the book that is dedicated for all churches of Grand Duchy of Lithuania(Bažnyčioms Didės Kunigystės Lietuwos išduota). It also fits to the name of Lithuanians who lived in Prussia. So, I don’t understand which forms do You want to hear? Litwin was Slavonic name and that’s all. The fact that it was used without diphthongs in other languages means nothing but only that they took Slavonic version. But even those who used that form without diphthong(because Slavonic language lost diphthongs) they clearly explains that Lithuanians, Samogytians, Prussians are similar nations, with similar language, religion. And such a people like Jan Dlugosz(he wrote: “Prussians had them unique language, that came from Latin language, related and similar to Lithuanian language, worshiped almost the same gods....”), Michal Lituanus(diplomat, politic of GDL), Maciej Strijkowski, Alexander Guagnini, etc, - those scientists, people, warriors who were enough experienced and educated to know, had strong connection with Lithuania(worked as diplomat, served in army or just lived). And not only scientists, but also Lithuanians like Vytautas(In the title of the letter “Magni ducis Lithuaniae”. So the form is also used without diphthong, but in the letter he explains that Lithuanians are “Auxstote(Aukštaitija-Higland)” and “Samoyte(žemaičiai-lowlanders)” and Adam Mickiewicz(“Lithuanian nation, constisting from Lithuanian, Prussian and Letts tribes”). Also there were formes like Lettowen(Lithuania) and Lettower(Lithuanian). So, I and other people here proved that: 1) Litvin was not the only form 2) it doesn’t mean anything.
You seem not to know at all, that the main official document of the GDL, the Statute, written in the old Belarusian language, names the duchy citizens - Litvin.
I really know it. Thanks for Your language that really helped for us at that timeJ Lithuanians really often used old Ruthenian language. Even Augustin Rotundus wrote: “Lithuanians originated of Italians, how we could predict from language of commons, that is similar to Italian language, despite of that both languages are separated by the time and distance. NOBLES, living together with Poles and Ruthenians(actually “RUSSO” in the original text) in COMMON STATE, instead of native language habituated to using of Polish and Ruthenian language”.
You might try to actually read the article, and you'll understand, that it's not about modern Lithuanians, but about the historical phenomenon "Litvins", which embraced in the past both part of nowadays Lithuanians and Belarusians.
Litvin is just Slavonic name of those people.
Yeah, really? You seem to have a prophetic vision, and travelling with a time machine, just like Baranauskas. Could you show me, when it "BECAME"?.. The first mentionings are all of "Litvins". We don't have any lietuviai at all during the Middle ages. First, show me any mentionings of "lietuviai" in medieval sources, then talk of "becoming" from one to the other... By the way, Belarusians do have diphthongs - in all the named words: Vitaut, Kouna, Jaunut - we have diphthongs. By the way, "kounia" means forge shop in Old Belarusian, that's why the town was named so. You really thought it was your name?...
You don’t have any “Lietuviai” because you didn’t have diphtongs when you took that form.. I would like to see proves about “kounia”. Do You know that the West Belarus is full of Lithuanian toponymes? Ashmeny, Lyda, Kiemielishki, Lyntupy and lot of other are ABSOLUTELY LITHUANIAN. The same with the names. We can easily explain names like Vytaut, Gedimine, Kiejstut, Algird, Jaunut and lot of other. The same with most of the surnames of the nobles who got Coat of Arms in Horodle.
You might try to actually read the article, and you'll understand, that it's not about modern Lithuanians, but about the historical phenomenon "Litvins", which embraced in the past both part of nowadays Lithuanians and Belarusians.
If it is not about modern Lithuanians, why those “Litvins”, by normal scientist, Lithuanians(those who called themselves so), or people who lived here for longer time explained very well about similarities between Lithuanians, Samogytians, Prussians?
And so? If there's a difference, then Litvins are necessarily nothing but ethnic Balts? Eventhough, the main official document of the state is written in the Belarusian language, of which the Lithuanian chancellor Lew Sapieha says, that the Statute was written "in OUR OWN language"? lol. Moscovites also regarded Litvins (i.e. Belarusians from Mogilev, Minsk) as foreigners in 1654, and regarded their "Lithuanian" (Belarusian language) as a foreign language...
Of course, there were few meanings of Lithuanians at that time. Gente Lituanus(equivalent to Gente Ruthenus), and natione Lituanus that didn’t have any equivalent. So, Ruthenians were also Lithuanians in the meaning of citizenship. But now, in Republic of Lithuania, You can also call Yourself Lithuanian in that meaning, even being from another Gente. But the fact is that GDL was created mostly by Baltic Lithuanians, who created that civilization together with people of Ruthenian origin, who could be Natione Lituanus too. But then I don’t see need to create ENGLISH article with Belorussian name.
Sapieha didn’t say it was Lithuanian language!! Lithuanians really often used Ruthenian language. But lot of them understood that the true language of this ethnic group, who “came from Italia “ is not the Ruthenian one.(as You can see from my quotes).
If you can't see this, then you are really stupid. I'll try: the LITHUANIAN chancellor (actually, the second person in the state after the grand duke) is writing in the LITHUANIAN Statute (written in the Belarusian language), that this Statute is being written "not in any foreign language, but in the language OF OUR OWN".
Lew Sapieha, of course, was Ruthenian. But I can’t see where he explains “who is Lithuanians”. Don’t be funny, please, brother Lithuanian.
And all that - regarding, there are totally no any documents or even a couple of words in modern Lithuanian in all official documents of the GDL throughout all its 5-century history.
What about Kosciuszko uprising or translation of Constitution of May 3rd ? You should know that language is not the main factor. Look to the Scots who doesn’t speak Scottish, but still feel they are Scots..
Lies. There's no testimony that Mindaug was pagan. His son Voiszelk was an Orthodox Christian. If you might mean any other "Lithuanians", than we know also dukes, who were called "Litva" or "Litovsky" with Slavic names, who were ancestors of Criwicz dukes, and could not be pagan, but were Christian, for example, "litva" in 1180 - Vselav Mikulich, Andrey Volodshich, Vasilko; in 1213 - Vladimir Mstislavich, "litovsky"
So fantastic. Look at the Chronicle of Hipatius. “Mindaugas(Mindog) sent his envoys to pope and took Christianity. His Christianization was false; he secretly sacrificed for his gods: Nunadievis and Teliavelis and Diviriksis, zaejachemoy bogu and Medeinai”. So the Chronicle not only shows that Mindaugas was pagan, but also write the names of Lithuanian gods… Voiszelk was really Orthodox, but later dukes were pagan.. until Jogiello and Vytaut. Show me the sources with those “Litva” and “Litovsky”. English translation will be ok. (But bigger quote that could help me to see context)
Yes, for sure it was established in Lithuania, which was the name for western Belarus of those times. Novogradek is Litva during Mindaug's times, as chronicles say. If you really knew the sources, you'd know that Mindaug gave Zhemaitia (western Lietuva) to crusaders as a gift. An the second grand duke Voiszelk conquered the lands of Devoltva and Upita (nowadays eastern Lietuva) with his army in 1264. So, where was the grand duke's proper land - ever fancied that?... lol. Voiszelk came to conquer Devoltva and Upite with an army from Pinsk and Novogradek (the chronicle says, they were "his father soldiers and friends", PSRL, II, 860-863).
East Lithuania + West Belarus was really very important place. But just have in mind that most of etnonymes of those places in West Belarus are of Lithuanian origin. Wait wait wait, as I understand, at that time, after murdering of Mindaugas it was like interwar there. Voiszelk was supported by dukes of Halych and just took Upita and Deltuva from opponents and those who killed his father. I don’t see any inconsistence. But from this Your text we can see that You are really cheating with the sources, not telling everything. So, this article because of cheating, bad explanation do not have something common with the sciense and must be deleted. If we want to create article about ciizens of GDL we should write that GDL was created by Baltic Lithuanians and later made Natione Lituanus which consisted of Gente Lituanus and Gente Ruthenus(+some other ethnic groups). Even Ruthenian language was important for maybe 200 years, but everyone who were Lithuanians, lived in Lithuania knew that it is Ruthenian and not Lithuanian language. Egisz , 21:44, 06 September, 2009 (UTC) 195.182.70.130 ( talk) 07:11, 7 September 2009 (UTC) Afrika-Budivid again forgot that Voishalk became ortodox then he became ruler of Novogorodok, not from birth date.Kutis
So, looks like he don't want more discussions, but he wants just to put his version without arguments. He also don't hear what other people argue. So, his version must be refused. He even take of the warning, that this article is not neutral and full of lies. Egisz , 11:06, 08 September, 2009 (UTC)
I wrote enough to refuse Your article. Its only one Your version, without alternative quotes of Lithuanians and those, who lives there longly. Furthermore, You delete even warnings that this article is still very doubtful, and it is ugly. Egisz 15:49, 8 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Egisz ( talk • contribs)
You lied about the name, that was "never" mentioned in another type. You lied about the fact that Lithuanian language was Slavonic, but i showed the works of contemporary people that showed contrary. I know You are very depressed right now, but take a rest and everything will be ok. -- Egisz ( talk) 15:30, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Reading list to everyone:
Renata ( talk) 13:54, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
a) WE DON'T SAY THAT LITVIN WERE ALWAYS ETHNIC LITHUANIANS. As You saw it was written that the word Lithuanian (haha, also "slavonic" yes?) meant not only Baltic Lithuanians. But understanding of Gente Lituanus was always clear. Clear for Vytautas, clear for Mickiewicz, clear for Rotundus, clear for Michal Lituanus. And there were not only Litwin, but also Lietuwa, Lettowiae, lietuwininkai, Letphanorum. It just depends on language of the text. b) I showed You some. But anyway, it doesn't have big importance. Whats the difference if Europe took Slavonic version? The name Litvins is Slavonic name of Lithuanians. At the time of GDL Ruthenians also could name themselves as Lithuanians. - Egisz 15:56, 8 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Egisz ( talk • contribs) 195.182.70.130 ( talk)From the letter of Prussian Grand Master to Livonian 1295: "...quatenus super predictis articulis nobis vestrum maturum consilium rescribatis et, si vobis et vesris videbitur forsitan expedire, quod possitis et velitis adhuc ista b[h]yeme producere exercitum contra hostes Lettowinos videlicet de Sameyten, nos ex nostra parte terram regis Butegeyde eodem tempore invademus. "
Lithuanians from Zemaitija —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.182.70.130 ( talk) 06:14, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Finally, You are leaving. I know that You are sad now, but history is history. I want to remind that you forgot again. Letter of Vytautas, works of contemporary people living in Lithuania or even being Lithuanians. -- Egisz ( talk) 15:28, 9 September 2009 (UTC) 195.182.70.130 ( talk) You asked for another name of Lithuanians in the sources, I gave source of the 13 century where "Lithuanians" are mentioned as "Lettowinos", not "Litvin". And you again not happy. —Preceding undated comment added 07:42, 9 September 2009 (UTC).
I suggest adding some facts from the Belarusian (be-x-old) Wiki, as the current English article is a little bit stupid, it's not about the historical phenomenon of Litvins (as the name implies), but about those who nowadays are called Lietuviai, transposed into past (with viewing the "Lithuanian Statute" (in the Belarusian language) as their heritage... and other stupid things...). So I suggest adding something relevant. I'd do it myself, but last time I did it, there was a lot of shouting...
So I suggest that all the participants present here would choose some points and agree before it's added, to prevent quarrelling. Then I'll translate them from Belarusian, and will add them. So here they are:
So you can see, that such claims are not some "fantasies by Belarusian nationalists", and not some "marginal delirium" - but clear historical facts, supported by many historians from different countries.
So, I suggest you all to choose something relevant from these points (or from whatsoever more), to add something to the article.
Also the article shall become more bulky and become divided into historical periods. And include more pictures, too, as on Belarusian (be-x-old) wiki. Rasool-3 ( talk) 14:41, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
15:33, 26 October 2010 (UTC)~~And as all „licvins” you show us your incompetence in interpretation of the historical facts.
Rasool-3, you need to understand that in the English language, "Lithuanian" refers to the Baltic people who live in Lithuania. In German they are called Litauer, in French Lituaniens, in Italian Lituani, and in the Slavic languages Litwini or some variant of that word. Lietuviai is the Lithuanian word for Lithuanian. It is not the English word for Lithuanian. Litvin is also not the English word for Lithuanians. Please get over that fact. During their early history the Lithuanians conquered vast underpopulated territories which included modern day Belarus as well as other territories that include other modern day countries. Just like the English were able to subdue other areas of the British Isles (with longer lasting effects). That the Ruthenians and other Slavic peoples comprised a significant portion of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (probably a numerical majority) is neither here nor there. If you want to note that many Ruthenians were subjects of Lithuania, and therefore were "Lithuanians" by virtue of that fact, go ahead, knock yourself out. Especially if it makes you feel better. Please keep in mind that Samogitia was also part of Lithuania. Too often these ultra-nationalistic rants are based on " Romanticized" monographs written in the 19th century in order to foster a political agenda. From all sides. It seems more than anything this is a semantical argument. We're on English Wikipedia at the moment. Lithuanian is an English word. Litvin is not. Dr. Dan ( talk) 17:47, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
The recnt change of the intro is an opinion not supported by references to to reliable sources. - üser:Altenmann >t 16:29, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
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There is a much better article at /info/en/?search=Polish-Lithuanian_identity, more in line with the Polish version of this article. Perhaps someone more wiki-savy could merge the two or substitute it for "Litvin" article with its weird population data...
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Sabbatino, what is your problems? The section provides references only from Lithuanian authors who is critical about the origin of Litvin. How it is not point of view? The section also states that opinion of Belarusian authors are nationalistic and fringe. Why are they fringe? Where is clear explanation that they are fringe? Because some person of unknown origin states that. Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 14:31, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
The article completely ignored the fact that even disregarding the origins of the GDL, for the most of its lifetime the GDL was a Slavic state. There is no mention that Litvins was used as an identification name for its Slavic inhabitants. The endik ( talk) 07:33, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
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I have moved parts of this edit to talk in case some editor think it's useful and wants to add it to this or other article after proper copyediting.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
As an ethnonym referring to the inhabitants of the entire Belarusian ethnolinguistic territory, the term "Belarusian" is of quite recent origin. In fact, before the late 19th century, Belarusians were usually called by their neighbors, and sometimes called themselves " Litviny" (based on their long association with the historical Lithuania, this is not surprising), as well as " rusiny" (particularly those of the Orthodox and Uniate as opposed to Roman Catholic faith). The Old Belarusian/Ruthenian language that functioned as the official chancellery language of the [[Grand Duchy of Lithuania]] from the 14th to the 17th centuries was called by its users " prosty ruski jazyk"/" prostaja ruskaja mova" (the simple Rus' language, in contrast to Church Slavonic, the language of the Orthodox church), although 16th-17th century Muscovite sources refer to it as either " litovskii jazyk" or " beloruskij jazyk." Interestingly, a Russian diplomat who visited Vilnius/Vilnia in the early 18th century noted in his memoirs that in the surrounding villages, some peasants spoke a " separate Lithuanian language" ( osobyj litovskij jazyk), evidently not Polish or the Belarusian dialects that Russians were accustomed to calling "Lithuanian." Incidentally, as recently as the early 20th century, ethnic Russians and Ukrainians in border regions like Smolensk and west Polesie referred to neighboring Belarusian dialect speakers as "litviny/lytvyny" and their speech as "po-litovski/po-lytovs'komu". Dal's dictionary also has an interesting example of this use of the word " litvin" by Russians to refer to Belarusians: "[[tol'ko mertvyj litvin ne dzeknet]]" ("only a dead Litvin won't say it with dzekan'e" -- dzekan'e: a fairly salient (evidently, at least to Russians) feature of Belarusian pronunciation: the pronunciation of palatalized alveolar affricates in place of palalized dental stops, e.g. Belarusian [dz"ec"i] 'children' vs. Russian [d'et'i]).
The form " Belorusec," alongside " Litvin", also shows up in 17th-century Muscovite documents in reference to the Belarusian merchants and craftsmen (both prisoners of war and voluntary emigres) who were resettled in Moscow's "Meshchanskaja sloboda" in large numbers during and after the 1654-1667 war between Muscovy and Poland-Lithuania. While Belarusian-speaking (and after the mid-17th century, mainly Polish-speaking) elites in the GDL often referred to themselves as " Litviny/Litwini", most Belarusian-speaking peasants simply identified themselves as " tutejshy" (local), and after the abolition of the Uniate Church in 1839, may have added that they were "ruskaj very" (of the Rus' faith) or "pol'skaj very" (of the Polish faith) if they happened to be Roman Catholic. The use of the term "Belarusian" for self-identification by Belarusians appears to have become common only since the early 20th century with the establishment of Belarus as a political entity (the [[Belarusian Democratic Republic]] (1918) and the BSSR (1922)). Significantly, in those parts of the Belarusian ethnolinguistic territory that lie outside the borders of the modern Belarusian state, for example the southern Vilnius region in Lithuania, the western Smolensk and Brjansk regions of Russia, and the Bialystok region of Poland, the percentage of Belarusian dialect speakers of local origin, whether Orthodox or Catholic, who identify themselves as Belarusians is quite small, probably less than 10% in the first two regions, and no more than 20% in the latter.
Current version of "article" is an original research and representing some sort of fringe theory. External links and "sources" like [1] [2] etc. not even close to the required criteria of reliable sources and actually is some sort of extreme nationalistic ones, which advocates to rename "State of Belarus" to Lithuania (!). Wikipedia is required that only high quality material should be presented, therefore per WP:RS,OR and WP:FRINGE I converting this "article" to previous disambiguation. M.K. ( talk) 08:20, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Thinking about it, this article should probably moved to something like Litvin (Historical context) and then linked to from the Litvin (disambiguation) page. Hopefully this would clarify this mess up. radek ( talk) 09:15, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Mess = People replacing this article with the disambig article, deleting all the text in the process. Piotrus, if you think this is the primary usage then I think as it is right now it's fine, just the disambig article needs to be clear. radek ( talk) 17:49, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Nor google books [5] neither google scholar search [6] presents English usage of the current spelling of the article name, although it does present family names in abundance. I hope everyone will agree, that this is English Wikipedia?-- Lokyz ( talk) 19:06, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
To the author of the article: I’d like to offer some substantial corrections + a bunch of historical examples, so as to provide better understanding of who Litvins were. First of all, this denomination never served to identify a Baltic ethnicity ONLY. It always, since the very beginning was used to determine what we now call Lithuanians and Belarusians. It was a super-ethnical term. It is likely, that the term itself is of Slavic origin (mind the ending: -in). It was used to determine the dwellers of the Great Duchy of Lithuania, as of the 13th century, both (modern) Lithuanians and Belarusians. There was no such term as “Belarusian” in the Middle Ages, and all the Belarusian were called “Litvins” from 13th to 19th cent. In the 16th century (at the peak of Grand Dutchy’s might), there’s no any doubt, that ALL, who were called Litvins, spoke the Belarusian language. The Belarusian language (in the process of forming in 13-15 cc.) was the only language ever used by dukes and lords of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, until the end of the 14th century, when Latin added (fulfilling minor tasks of international correspondence). The Belarusian language was always used in all spheres of the governmental activities of GDL, including the laws of the state, where the rights of “Litvins” are stated.
The Second Statute of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania of 1566 (in the Belarusian language) states:
“Въ томъ панстве Великомъ Князстве Литовскомъ и во всихъ земляхъ ему прислухаючыхъ достойностей духовныхъ и свецкихъ городовъ дворовъ и кгрунтовъ староствъ въ держаньи и пожываньи и вечностей жадных чужоземцомъ и заграничникомъ ани суседомъ таго панства давати не имаемъ; але то все мы и потомки наши Великіе Князи Литовскіе давати будуть повинни только Литве а Руси, родичомъ старожитнымъ и врожонцамъ Великаго Князства Литовского (…..) А хотя бы хто обчого народу за свое заслуги въ той речы посполитой пришолъ ку оселости зъ ласки и данины нашое, албо которымъ иншимъ правомъ; тогды таковые толко оселости оное ужывати мають будучы обывателемъ обецнымъ Великаго Князства и служачы службу земскую томужъ панству. Але на достоенства и всякій врядъ духовный и свецкій не маеть быти обиранъ, ани отъ насъ Господаря ставленъ, толко здавна продковъ своихъ уроженецъ Великого Князства Литовского Л и т в и н ъ и Русинъ».
(“In our state of Grand Duchy of Lithuania and in all of its lands, we (the Sovereign) shall grant any ranks and positions … to Litva (i.d. to Litvins) and to Russia (i.d. to Russians) only, who are ancient dwellers and natives of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. … To any offices and appointments, only those shall be appointed by us, the Sovereign, who are ancient natives of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania – L i t v i n and Rusin (Ruthen)”.
During the times of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (1240-1795) all the modern “Belarusians” (the term itself come to a wide usage in tzar Russia, in the 19th century only) were called Litvins. And, by the way, only small part of modern Lithuanians were called “Litvins” in the GDL, as the entire half of them was called “Zhemoit” (Zhemaitia, Zhmudz – Samogitia), which is of common knowledge. And that half of the modern Lithanian folk, called Zhomoit, was not even regarded a native nation of the GDL in the Statutes, as Litvins and Russians were, and Zhomoit itself did not identified themselves with Litvins – which can be illustrated by many drastic examples.
Belarusians were called Litvins also after the times of the GDL, in the 19th century as well, which can be illustrated by the whole Russian 19th century literature. In any Russian book of the first half of the 19th century, a “Litvin” would mean a Belarusian (mind such authors as Pushkin and Turgenev). Ukranians called Belarusians “Litvins” until the 1940-s, which is illustrated by many folklore sayings. Dwellers of Bryansk and Kursk regions of Russia (bordering on Belarus), and of Bialystok region of Poland would call Belarusians “Litvins” all through the 19th century.
The point is, that the original name – which is “Litvin”, testified by so many medieval sources – is not ever-ever used by modern Lithuanians, who call themselves “lietuviai”, I don’t know for which reasons. They seem to give away the name for oblivion. Meanwhile, the name enjoys its revival in Belarus, where many prefer to be named “Litvins” and to identify themselves with the GDL, so more, it is widely known that Belarusians were called Litvins in the times of GDL, and contributed to almost all aspects of its culture. By the way, the surname “Litvin”, and its derivatives (Litvinchuk, Litvinok, Litvinov) are traditionally extremely frequent in Belarus. Meanwhile, there is no such surnames in modern Lithuania at all.
Let’s look at some examples of the historical Litvins. A statement about “Litvins” being a name of a Baltic ethnicity is totally incorrect, as the name embraced both Slavs and Balts at the time.
There is baron named “Luka Litvin” as early as in 1267 at the court of the Lithuanian Duke Dovmont, who was the ruler of Pskov since 1265. (Luka is an orthodox Christian name, popular with Slavs). So, what we see – is a person with an orthodox Christian name and, probably, a surname “Litvin”.
(Воскресенская летопись. ПСРЛ, т.7. М., 2001. с.166)
Yes, certainly, there are plenty of person with Baltic names called Litvins in the 13th century, including the very sovereigns of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, but there are Slavic person called “Litvins” as well.
Although the modern Lithuanians claim they were called “lietuviai” already at those times, and that even there were no “Litvins” at all (!), that’s incorrect. The first grand duke of the GDL, Mindaug (ruled 1240-1263), called himself “rex L i t w i n o r u m ” (duke of Litwins) in his Latin letters. (РЛА, №122).
Lithuanian grand duke Viten (ruled 1294-1316) was also called “rex Litwinorum” in Latin sources. Peter of Duisburg (ca. 1326) depicted a crusader’s raid onto Litvins near Grodno in 1295:
“…five brothers (crusaders) and 150 men from Sambia and Nattangia went on a raid to the castle of Grodno (a city in modern Belarus); and when they c a m e c l o s e, they desired to dismount and to go down the Neman (river) on ships; they devastated a village of L i t v i n s on the riverbank there, killed and captured many people, and moved on”.
So, in 1295 a village of Litvins was situated near Grodno, where Slavic population dwelled.
“Vilno martyrs” of 1347 were, no doubt, Slavs. Their names were Kumec, Kruglec and Nezhilo, which are distinct Slavic names, and they were naperers at the court of the Lithuanian grand duke Olgerd in Vilno. The chronicles said that “Kruglec, Kumec and Nezhilo were born of Litva”; “their L i t h u a n i a n names were Kruglec, Kumec, Nezhilo”.
(Darius Baronas. Trys Vilniaus kankiniai: gyvenimas ir istorija. Aidai, Vilnius, 2000)
A Vilno prelate Matej (Matthew), according to a 1422 document, was a born Litvin (“venerabilem virum magistrum Mathiam origine Lytwanum”). However the Lithuanian grand duke Vitovt made a purposeful statement of Matej’s being appropriate for a position of Samogitian (modern Lietuva) bishop in Medniki (modern Varniai), for Matej had “a satisfactory command of the Samogitian dialect” (i.e. of what is now called the Lithuanian language) (“ac de ydiomate Samagitico sufficintissime institutum”). This never occurred with Litvins - bishops in the Belarusian lands (i.e. there are no any statements that they experienced any language troubles in, e.g. Krevo, Navahradak or Lida). This says, that normally Litvins did not have any command of the Samogitian dialect, even on a satisfactory level.
The second cathlic bishop of Vilno was also a Litvin – Jacub (Jan’s son) Plichta ([jakub plihta]), who died on February 2, 1407. The documents testify of him as of a distinct Litvin, from the nation and language of Litva (“Johannis dicti Plychta … viro vicarium Lythuanie, eiusdemque nacionis et lingue”). His name, father’s name and surname are distinctly Slavic.
(Codex epistolaris Vitoldi, pp. 60-61, 103).
By the way, no other documents, than in the Belarusian language are known of the Lithuanian grand duke Vitovt (1392-1430), as well as of Jagailo (1382-1392), Olgerd (1345-1377), Keistut (co-ruled 1345-1382), and other dukes and barons of medieval Lithuania (with the exeption of Latin letters, found in international correspondence).
A Russian chronicle gives a list of “Lithuanian” dukes, who perished in the battle of Vorskla on August 12, 1399: “These are the names of the Lithuanian dukes, who perished: Andrey Olgerdovich of Polock (a Belarusian town), Dmitry Olgerdovich of Bryansk (a Russian town), Ivan Dmitrievich Kindyr, Andrey Dmitrievich, Ivan Evlashkovich, Leon Koriadovich, Michailo Vasylievich, his brother Semen Vasylievich, Michailo Podberezsky, his brother Alexander, Fedor Patrikeevich Rylsky, Andrey of Druck (a Belarusian town), Mont Toluntovich, Ivan Yuryevich Belsky…”.
This is one of many examples, where there are so many Slavic names.
(Патриаршая или Никоновская летопись. - ПСРЛ, т. 11. М.: 2000. с. 174).
The enlightener and Roman Pope Aneus Silvius Piccolomini wrote in 1458, that Litvins speak a Slavic language. Such European scientists as Hertman Schedel (in his “World Cronicon”, 1493), Jan Norich (in “Decachyston”, 1511), Jan of Bohemia (in “Omnius Gentes Mores”, 1538) and an Austrian diplomat Sigismund Herberstein (in “History of Moscovia”, 1549) wrote of Litva (Lithuania) as of a Slavic country, and alltogether considered the Lithuanian language a Slavic language.
Herberstein wrote in 1549: “…the bison is called by Litvins in their language “Suber” (“zubr” is the bison in the Belarusian language); “the beast, called by Litvins in their language “Loss”, is called Ellend in German (elk, “los” in Belarusian); “the Sovereign assignes a governor there, whom they (Litvins) in their language call “Starosta”” (a name of an office in Belarusian).
A world known enlightener and cultural icon Francisk Skorina from Polock (who introduced book printing in Belarus and Russia in 1514) registered at the Krakov University as a “Litvin” in 1505.
A famous revolutionary activist and a national hero of the USA – Tadeusz Koscioszko (born near Brest, Belarus) – appealed to his companions: “Am I not your fellow countryman? Am I not a Litvin?..”. In his letter to the Russian tzar Kosciuszko wrote: “I was born a Litvin…”.
A world-famous poet Adam Mickewicz (who was born and dwelled near and in Navahradak – in Grodno region of Belarus) appealed to his native land as “O Litva (Lithuania)! My homeland!”.
The founder of the modern Belarusian dramaturgy and one of the fathers of the modern Belarusian language, Vincent Dunin-Marcinkevicz (1808-1884), considered himself to have been raised “among Litvins” (he was raised near Bobruisk and Minsk, in Belarus).
(Дунін-Марцінкевіч В. Збор твораў. Мн., 1958. С.362.)
A famous scientist, a national hero of Chili, Ignat Domeiko (born near Navahradak), wrote of “our Litvins” (in his book “My Travels”), embracing both Belarusian barons and peasantry of his times with the term. Domeiko’s Diploma (at Krakow University, 1887) was granted to “…a noble man Ignat Domeiko, a Litvin…”.
A Russian world-famous 19th century classic writer, Fedor Dostoevsky (whose ancestors came from Dostoevo estate near Pinsk) wrote: “my ancestors come from Lithuanian swamps…”.
You might incorporate something of this, which you find interesting, into your article. Regards,
195.50.1.122 (
talk)
14:29, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, but this person not telling the truth:
1. Although the modern Lithuanians claim they were called “lietuviai” already at those times, and that even there were no “Litvins” at all (!), that’s incorrect. The first grand duke of the GDL, Mindaug (ruled 1240-1263), called himself “rex L i t w i n o r u m ” (duke of Litwins) in his Latin letters. (РЛА, №122).
He quote letter, which is officaly acknowledged as fake: "Міндаў, кароль Літовіі, у дакумэнтах і сьведчаньнях = Mindowe, rex Lithowiae, in litteris et testimoniis. Укл. А. Жлутка. Менск, 2005": "Як і варыянт а, лічыцца пазьнейшым фальсыфікатам...".
2.Lithuanian grand duke Viten (ruled 1294-1316) was also called “rex Litwinorum” in Latin sources.
"Cristianar um Eodem anno Vithenus filius rеgis Lethowie cum" " Austechiam terram rеgis Lethowie", " Nee unquam lemporibus suis rex Lethowie" "succumberent Anno domini MCCXCVIII Vithenus rex Lethowinorum ad vocacionem civium Rigеnsium " "Sed rex Lethowie" "Anno domini MCCCXI in carnlsprivio Vithenus rex Lethowie" "Eodem anno in vigilia palmarum Vithenus rex Lethowie putans" "Eodem anno mense Septembri Vithenus rex Lethowinorum " http://books.google.com/books?id=YX8OAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA156&dq=terram+regis+Lethowie#v=onepage&q=&f=false
As you can see where is no any "rex Litwinorum".
3. Peter of Duisburg (ca. 1326) depicted a crusader’s raid onto Litvins near Grodno in 1295: “…five brothers (crusaders) and 150 men from Sambia and Nattangia went on a raid to the castle of Grodno (a city in modern Belarus); and when they c a m e c l o s e, they desired to dismount and to go down the Neman (river) on ships; they devastated a village of L i t v i n s on the riverbank there, killed and captured many people, and moved on”. So, in 1295 a village of Litvins was situated near Grodno, where Slavic population dwelled.
"Anno d mini MCCXCV feria YI ante diem pentecostes v fratres et centum quin quaginta viri de Sambia et Nattangia equitaverunl versus castrum Gartham et dum appropinquarent plncuit eis ut remissis equis navigio Memelam descen derent ubi in lilore quadam villa Lеthowinorum occisis et captis pluribus ho minibus deprédala iterum processerunt Sed infideles hoc videntes ármala"
Again you can see form "Lеthowinorum" but no any "Litwin". 195.182.70.130 ( talk)kutis —Preceding undated comment added 10:22, 20 August 2009 (UTC).
OK, I've made it. Mr. Altenmann, how do you like it?
Mr. Altenmann, please, won't you correct the grammar, if you are a native speaker? Thank you. 195.50.1.122 ( talk) 10:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Very funny, in the Letter of Kazimir belorussians from Polock and Vitebsk not mentioned as litvins, but here you writting that they "litvins" too.
Also strange, that form "litvin" was never mentioned in belorussian and ukrainian chronicles and letters of 12-14 century. "Litvins" shows only then Jogelo became king of Poland, so it's not belorussian historical form, but linguistic form from polish language.
Even know this form is in polish language. 80.240.12.146 ( talk) 09:57, 22 August 2009 (UTC) man.
Sorry, but habitants of Polock and Vitebsk are called as „rusins“, not „litvins“.
Luka Litvin was mentioned in chronicle of the 16 century.
Fact, where is no chronicles (Ipavet, Novgorod chronicles) or letters until union with Poland of 1386 where will be mentioned „litvins“ in rusins chronicles of 10-14 century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.182.70.130 ( talk) 07:28, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Lets talk about real facts, not childish theory about „bad russians“ .
Then you find your Luka Litvin in the others chronicles of 13-14, then talk about real person.
Your Russian source have one notice: для прочтения и зашифрованных мест во всех четырех дошедших до нас списках послания, из которых два принадлежат XV в., а два — рубежу XV и XVI вв.
So, they not real source of 14 century, just later copies. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
88.223.26.210 (
talk)
15:19, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
And what they did? Rewrite everywhere „Litovcy“ instead of „litvin“? Very funny.
I don‘t see any source of 13-14 with „litvin“, I see that you mentioned some sources which is fake (letter of Mindaug) and later sources of 15-18 century.
Very interesting thing: In agreement between Jagelo, Kestutis, Liubart with king of Poland Kazimir of the year 1352 you can find this quote: „кнѧзии̇ литовьскыхъ“. So why not „Litvin dukes“? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.182.70.130 ( talk) 10:36, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
I suggest some quotations from Aleksander Brückner's works should be added to this article. CityElefant ( talk) 15:01, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
The article is so WP:OR'ish that it is on the verge of deletion. I had ahope it would improve over time, but I've lost the hopes. It is becoming some propaganda vehicle, that does not have anything to do with WP:RS and WP:V. Either you like or not the academic historians, is of no matter, but one should not turn Wikipedia intosome sort of forum, where anyone does interpret sources likely like transcribing Latin Lituania into L itva. Official English nme for Lithuanian is well, Lithuania. -- Lokyz ( talk) 09:45, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
195.182.70.130 ( talk)How do you think, Budivid-Afrika and so on, in Latin version of Statute, what term you find? Litvin? Kutis —Preceding undated comment added 11:35, 3 September 2009 (UTC).
“Litvin – is the Slavic name for people living in Lithuania, and means Lithuanian in the Lithuanian (Lietuvis), Polish (Litwin), and Russian (Литвин) languages. It was applied earlier to all people living in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, and later the Lithuanian part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. As this area was primarily comprised of Lithuanians and Ruthenians, Litvini was the designated term for the inhabitants of this territory, by Slavic speaking peoples.” -------– Litvin is a Slavonic form of Lithuanian. So I can’t understand why we should create different articles. Should I create article about Lituanos, Lietuviai, Litouwers and Litovcy in English Wikipedia? The name became „Litvin“ because Ruthenians didn‘t have diphthong. Thats how Vytautas became Vitovt, Kaunas – Cowno, Lietuvis – Litvin, Jaunutis – Jawnut. As we see, it is enought to apply only one rule and everything became clear.
“In this our state of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and in all of its lands, we [the Sovereign] shall grant any ranks and positions … to Lithuania and to Russia only, who are ancient dwellers and natives of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. … To any offices and appointments, only those shall be appointed by us, the Sovereign, who are ancient natives of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, those are – Lithuanian and Ruthenian”[1].What nation was named "Lithuanians" here, is explained by the author of the Statutes of Lithuania, Lew Sapieha, in a corresponding article of the Lithuanian Statute:"...it is not in any foreign language, but in the language of our own, that we have our rights written"[2]. –------ So, as we see difference between Lithuanians and Ruthenians are. And, I cant imagine where do You see explanation of Sapieha about who is Lithuanians. So, this part must be deleted because: 1) Lithuanians and Ruthenians were separated again, 2) There are no explanation of Sapieha.
The Ukranians called Belarusians “Litvins” until the 1940-s, which can be illustrated by still existing folklore sayings. Dwellers of Bryansk and Kursk regions of Russia (bordering on Belarus), and of Bialystok region of Poland would call Belarusians “Litvins” all through the 19th century and even up to nowadays. -----– Possible. For Ukrainians territory of Belarus was territory of Grand Duchy of Lithuania from old times. So they really could use that name. As Lithuanians still use all name of Goths to describe Belorussian. And that name appears in Lithuanian documents of Grand Duchy of Lithuania: “Mes Wladislaus / Ketwirtassis Isch Diewo Malo= nes / Karalius Lenku / Diddisis Kunigaikschtis Lietuwniku / Guddu / Prusu / Mo= suriu / Szemaicziu / Inflantůsa / Smolenska / Czernichowa etc. Priegtam ir Schwe= du / Gothu / bei Wandalu Tewiksztinis Karalius etc.” (We, Wladyslaw, IV, By the Grace of God, King of Poles, Grand Duke of Lithuanians, Gudai(Ruthenians), Prussians, Mosurians, Samogytians, etc, etc”. So as we see Ruthenians are separated from Lithuanians again. ( http://lietuvos.istorija.net/lituanistica/wladislaus1639.htm ). Our folk songs also says “gudai”.
It should be stressed, that the original form of the name is the form “Litwin”, which occurs in all medieval historical sources[6]. No any forms as “lietuva”, “lietuviai”, “litowcy” etc. occur in any medieval source. –------ Lie again. I’ve already posted one example and can add more. http://www.epaveldas.lt/vbspi/biRecord.do?biRecordId=980 – it is Lithuanian book of 1653. And there we can see written “Bažnyčioms Didės Kunigystės Lietuwos išduota“ it means „For the churches of Grand Duchy of Lithuania“. Of course, it is not medieval source, but i want to remind that no one medieval Lithuanian text reached us. (First texts in Lithuanian are of XVI c.)
“Litwins” come to be widely known in sources as of the formation of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (ca. 1240’s), as a denomination of Lithuanians and part of Belarus. The first Grand Duke of Lithuania Mindaugas himself signed in his Latin letters as “rex Litwinorum”[7] (“duke of Litwins”)Template:Dubiuos.During the 1210’s, a duke Dovgerd (who, after some scholars[8] might have been Mindaugas father) is known, as “one of the most powerful of Lithuanians”[9]. Some scholars made suggestions, that Dovgerd might have his residence in Oshmiany [10] or Vilna[11].In 1267 a baron named Luka Litvin[12] was present at the court of a Lithuanian duke Daumantas, who was the ruler of Pskov since 1265. (Luka is an orthodox Christian name, popular with Slavs). Probably, “Litvin” existed as a surname already in those times.Lithuanian grand duke Vytenis (ruled 1294-1316) was called “rex Lethowinorum” (“duke of Lithuanians”) in Latin sources. Peter of Duisburg (ca. 1326) depicted a crusader’s raid onto Lithuanians near Hrodna in 1295[13]: “…five brothers (crusaders) and 150 men from Sambia and Nattangia went on a raid to the castle of Hrodna; and when they came close, they wished to dismount and go down the Neman on ships; they devastated a village of Lithuanians [Lethowinorum] on the riverbank there, killed and captured many people, and moved on”. (In 1295, a village of Lithuanians was situated near Hrodna). –------ So, as You see, not Litwins, but Litwinorum, Lethowinorum, etc. But it is just names of Lithuanian in other languages.
Vilnius martyrs of 1347 were, no doubt, Slavs.[citation needed] Their names were Kumec, Kruglec and Nezhilo, which are distinct Slavic names, and they were naperers at the court of the Lithuanian grand duke Algirdas in Vilnius. The chronicles said that[14]: “Kruglec, Kumec and Nezhilo were born in Lithuania”; “their Lithuanian names were Kruglec, Kumec, Nezhilo”. –----- What do You want to say with this? Pagan Lithuanian duke with Lithuanian name, killed those ortodox with Slavonic names. So what does it prove?
A Vilnius prelate Matthew, according to a 1422 document, was a born Lithuanian (“venerabilem virum magistrum Mathiam origine Lytwanum”). However the Lithuanian grand duke Vytautas made a purposeful statement on Matthew's being appropriate for a position of the bishop of Samogitia in Medninkai (nowadays Varniai), as Matej had “a satisfactory command of the Samogitian dialect” (“ac de ydiomate Samagitico sufficintissime institutum”[16]). The second catholic bishop of Vilnius was also a Lithuanian – Jacub (Jan’s son) Plichta ([jakub plihta]), who died on February 2, 1407. The documents testify of him as of a distinct Lithuanian, from the nation and language of Lithuania (“Johannis dicti Plychta … viro vicarium Lythuanie, eiusdemque nacionis et lingue”[16]). –----- I can’t understand this again. What do You mean? Maybe its just a manner to make text longer?
A Russian chronicle gives a list of Lithuanian dukes, who perished in the battle of Vorskla on August 12, 1399[17]: “These are the names of the Lithuanian dukes, who perished: Andrey Olgerdovich of Polock, Dmitry Olgerdovich of Bryansk, Ivan Dmitrievich Kindyr, Andrey Dmitrievich, Ivan Evlashkovich, Leon Koriadovich, Michailo Vasylievich, his brother Semen Vasylievich, Michailo Podberezsky, his brother Alexander, Fedor Patrikeevich Rylsky, Andrey of Druck, Mont Toluntovich, Ivan Yuryevich Belsky…”. –------ And what does it mean? Sons of Algirdas really took East Christianity and adopted Slavonic culture when they ruled Ruthenian lands. There must be also said: “And said Andrey Olgerdovich for his brother Dmitry: we are two brothers – Songs of Olgierd, Grandsons of Edimant[Gediminas], and descendants of Skolomend” Thoose names are Baltic.
The enlightener and Roman Pope Aneus Silvius Piccolomini wrote in 1458, that Lithuanians speak a Slavic language[18]. Such European scientists as Hertman Schedel (in his “World Cronicon”, 1493), Jan Norich (in “Decachyston”, 1511[19]), Jan of Bohemia (in “Omnius Gentes Mores”, 1538[20]) and an Austrian diplomat Sigismund Herberstein (in “History of Moscovia”, 1549) wrote of Litva (Lithuania) as of a Slavonic country, and altogether considered the Lithuanian language a Slavic language. ------------– Of course, foreigners could be confused. For example Johannes Boemus Aubanus(not Jan of Bohemia, like you mentioned) just repeated what Piccolomini had written earlier. But the true that Piccolomini never knew Lithuanian language and never has been there. But even there Johannes Boemus Aubanus separate nations: “Aliae Graeco ritu sacra peragunt, vt Bulgari, Rutheni, et ex Lithuanis plerique. Nonnullae ab his diuersae proprias haereses habent, vt Boemi sunt, Moraui et Bosnienses. Hussitarum quaedam obseruant delirium: pars multo maxima Manicheum: quaedam adhuc etiam gentili caecitate tenentur, idola colunt, quemadmodum multi ex Lithuanis”.Sigismund Herberstein, as foreigner, could easily confuse. And of course, even today we have lot of words that came from Slavonic languages. So that’s why we have to use local sources. For example: Michalo Lituanus – Lithuanian humanist, activist, diplomat – writes: “ We take mascovian sciense, that has nothing ancient and can’t wake up virtues, because RUTHENIAN LANGUAGE IS ALIEN FOR US, LITHUANIANS, hoc est Italians, from Italian blood. [Cum idioma Ruthenum alienum sit a nobis Lituanis, hoc est, Italianis, Italico sanguine oriundis]. Then he add Latin words that are similar to Lithuanian. I will write Latin text and I will add Lithuanian translation in brackets. “[…] extinctus est per baptismatis vndam vgnis(Lithuanian word ugnis, as we know Latin “v” could be read as “u”), id est, ignis. Etenim et ignis(ugnis), et vnda(vanduo), aer(oras), sol(saulė), mensis(mėnesis), dies(diena), noctis(naktis), ros(rasa), aurora(aušra), dues(dievas), vir(vyras), deuir, i.e. leuir(dieveris), Nepotis(Nepotis), neptis( anūkė), tu(tu), tuus(tavas), meus(mano), suus(savo), levis(lengvas), tenuis(tėvas), vivus(gyvas), juvenis(jaunas), vetustus,senis(senas), oculus(akis), auris(ausis), nasus(nosis), dentes(dantys), gentes(gentys), sta(stok), sede(sėdėk), verte(versk),inverte(įversk), perverte(perversk), aratum(artų), occatum(akėtų), satum(sėtų), semen(sėmenys), lens(lęšis), linum(linai), canapum(kanapės), avena(aviža), pecus(pėkus), ovis(avis), anguis(angis), ansa(ąsa), corbis(gurbas), axis(ašis), rota(ratas), jugum(jungas), pondus(pundas), culeus(kūlė), callis (kelias), cur(kur), nunc(nūnai), tractus(trauktas), intractus(įtrauktas), pertractus(pertrauktas), extractus(ištrauktas), merctus(merktas), immerctus(įmerktas), sutus(siūtas), insutus(įsiūtas), versus(verstas), inversus(įverstas), perversus(perverstas), primus(pirmas), unus(vienas), duo (du), tres(trys), quatuor(keturi), quinque(penki), sex(šeši), septem(septyni), et pleraque alia, idem significant Lituano sermone quod et Latino(and lot of other words in Lithuanian language mean the same like in Latin." So as we see he was Lithuanian that could feel clear distinction between Lithuanians and Ruthenians, and between Lithuanian language and Ruthenian. Marcin Kromer – Polish historian humanist. Who finished academy of Cracow, studied in Padua and Bologna and later worked as secretary for Sigismund Augustus, and looks like, lived in Vilnius where helped to organise library for King – wrote: thoose lands now are ruled by Livonians, Samogytians, Lithuanians and Prussians. Thoose nations difference by rules, and by the form of government, but use almost the same language, ABSOLUTELY DIFFERENT FROM SLAVONIC...“ Alexander Guagnini – Italian, who was born in 1538 in Verona, in 1561 he came to Poland, from here he was sent to army of Lithuania and from 1561-1579 served in garrison of Vitebsk of Grand Duchy of Lithuania, partaken in Livonian wars – in his “Kronika Sarmacyi Europskiej” wrote: “As we have already spoken in the description of Polish kings, until the times of Wladyslaw Jagiello – King of Poles and Grand Duke of Lithuanians – whole people of LITHUANIANS AND SAMOGYTIANS NATION(wszyscy obywatele narodu litewskiego I žmudzkiego) – worshiped lot of Gods….”. Also he wrote: “they worshiped as the god also the thunder, that in them language they call him Perkunos”. I want to remind that Slavic people call him “Pierun”. Maciej Stryjkowski – historian and poet, who came to Lithuania until 1565, served for Lithuanian army, made lot of trips, lived in palaces of Chodkiewicz, later was parson in Jurbarkas, lived in Varniai, Jurbarkas – describing the old religion of Lithuanians, Samogytians and Prussians wrote: “There, to the honor of Perkunas either Prussians, and Samogytians, and Lithuanians for all days and nights fired eternal fire..” and “They worshiped him very much, - every Samogytian, Lithuanian and Prussian kept grass-snake at home…”. Later he describes those Gods of “Lithuanians, Samogytians, Semba, Latvians and Prussians”, and those are: “Okopirmnos, Swajtestix, Auschlavis, Atrimpos, Protrimpos, Gardoajtis, Pergrubius, Pilwitos, Perkunos or Piorunos, Poklus”. Then he describes the most special “gods of Lithuanians and Samogytians”, and they are: Prokorimos, Raguczis, Ziemiennik, Krummie Pradziu Warpu, Lituwanis, Chaurirari, Sotwaros, Seimi Dewos, Upinis Dewos, Bubilos, Dzidzis Lado, Gulbi Dziewos, Goniglis Dziewos, Swieczpunscynis, Kielu Dziewos, Puschajtis. As we see, he already knew how close thoose nations were. Jan Laciscki(~1534-1599) – historian, bibliographer, schoolmaster – who lived in Vilnius during his childhood and from about 1581 until his death wrote: “[..]Samogytia, because it is close to the sea is named “Lowland”, and Lithuania “Highland”; the language of Lithuanians and Samogytians is almost the same, almost the same are, also, dressing and religion.” And really, until today we use those words like Žemaitija and Aukštaitija. While Žemas in Lithuania means “low”, Aukštas means “high”. As we see, only those “scientist” who has never been in Lithuania, didn’t know language, was confused, and those who lived in Lithuania or WERE Lithuanians clearly showed who is who. Grand Duke of Lithuania – Vytautas – in 1420 wrote about Samogytia: “it was always one and the same Lithuania, because there is one language and the same people. But because Samogytia(Samaytarum in the letter) is Lowland, that’s why it is names Samaytarum, because it is a name of Lowland in Lithuania. And Samogytians(Samoyte in the letter) call Lithuania as Auxstote, id est Higher land from the view of Samogytians. Also, the people of Samogytia has never named themselves as Samogytians, but only as Lithuanians, and because of this identity in our letter we don’t write about Samagicia, because everything is the same, one land and the same people”
A known Polish revolutionary activist and a national hero of Poland and the USA – Tadeusz Kosciuszko (born near Brest, Belarus) – appealed to his companions: “Am I not your fellow countryman? Am I not a Litvin?..”. In his letter to the Russian tzar Kosciuszko wrote: “I was born a Litvin…”. –----- So what? If he wrote in Polish he had to use Polish word that means Lithuanians.
A world-famous Polish poet Adam Mickewicz (who was born and dwelled near and in Navahradak – in Grodno region of Belarus) appealed to his native land as “O Litva! My homeland!..”. –----- The same. If he write in Polish he has to use Polish word that means Lithuania. Don’t forget that the same Mickiewicz wrote: “Lithuanian nation, consisting of Lithuanian, Prussian, Latvian tribes…” It is very important, I think. He clearly let to understand that it is different tribe from Slavonic.
So, as we see, we can make few conclusions: 1) The article is full of lie that no one used name of “Lietuva” and other forms of Lithuanians, but just Litvins. 2) The “scientists” whom links are showed are unreliable because they weren’t connected to Lithuanians like those I presented. 3) Litvin is just Slavonic name of Lithuanian and Ruthenians were always excluded. Of course, Ruthenians could name themselves as Lithuanians in the meaning of citizenship. But it is the same situation today. 4) This article is unnecessary, because in this way we can create hundreds of articles about Lithuanians in English wikipedia with just different names.
So. My baggage of examples is still not empty and I’m prepared to discuss more -- User:Egisz , 17:17, 03 September, 2009 (UTC)
Mr. Egisz, I really am feeling sorry for you, as you're chewing again and again some propaganda fantasies, which were proven a stupid joke long-long ago. We have dozens of people like you on tut.by who just are coming in dozens and asking the same questions, and we show to them that their questions are just another occasion for us to take a good laugh, nothing more:
1) "Litvin is a Slavonic form of Lithuanian" - Yeah, really? I'm really laghing out loudly!... Maybe, you, as my wise adviser, will show me ANY OTHER forms of the name in the overall volume of the official documents of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, except for "Litvin"?... This is really hilariuos. Maybe you know any other form of the name in all the medieval sources, different from Литвин, Litwin, Lithuani - I'd fancy looking at that. You seem not to know at all, that the main official document of the GDL, the Statute, written in the old Belarusian language, names the duchy citizens - Litvin. And you fancied, why the Statute was NEVER translated to your language (what is nowadays called "Lithuanian")? And there was never another name in the GDL, except for Litvin?... lol. I'm leaving you quarrying in your "baggage" and I switch to another question.
2) "So I can’t understand why we should create different articles." - You might try to actually read the article, and you'll understand, that it's not about modern Lithuanians, but about the historical phenomenon "Litvins", which embraced in the past both part of nowadays Lithuanians and Belarusians.
"The name became „Litvin“ because Ruthenians didn‘t have diphthong." - Yeah, really? You seem to have a prophetic vision, and travelling with a time machine, just like Baranauskas. Could you show me, when it "BECAME"?.. The first mentionings are all of "Litvins". We don't have any lietuviai at all during the Middle ages. First, show me any mentionings of "lietuviai" in medieval sources, then talk of "becoming" from one to the other... By the way, Belarusians do have diphthongs - in all the named words: Vitaut, Kouna, Jaunut - we have diphthongs. By the way, "kounia" means forge shop in Old Belarusian, that's why the town was named so. You really thought it was your name?...
3) "So, as we see difference between Lithuanians and Ruthenians are." - And so? If there's a difference, then Litvins are necessarily nothing but ethnic Balts? Eventhough, the main official document of the state is written in the Belarusian language, of which the Lithuanian chancellor Lew Sapieha says, that the Statute was written "in OUR OWN language"? lol. Moscovites also regarded Litvins (i.e. Belarusians from Mogilev, Minsk) as foreigners in 1654, and regarded their "Lithuanian" (Belarusian language) as a foreign language...
"And, I cant imagine where do You see explanation of Sapieha about who is Lithuanians." - If you can't see this, then you are really stupid. I'll try: the LITHUANIAN chancellor (actually, the second person in the state after the grand duke) is writing in the LITHUANIAN Statute (written in the Belarusian language), that this Statute is being written "not in any foreign language, but in the language OF OUR OWN".
And all that - regarding, there are totally no any documents or even a couple of words in modern Lithuanian in all official documents of the GDL throughout all its 5-century history.
4) "And that name appears in Lithuanian documents of Grand Duchy of Lithuania: “Mes Wladislaus " - I'm already seek and tired of that, we have already repeated that dozens of times: this "document" is not a document by Wladislav, because there's no his personal signature, and his stamp; and ALL the official documents of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, all the grand duke's decrees were provided with the grand duke's signature and stamp. And this letter is just an unauthorized TRANSLATION, made by noone-know-whom, somewhere in Prussia (beyond the territory of the GDL), and has nothing to do with the official grand duke's chancellor' office at all. It was not even authorized by anyone. Its legal force is null. It's just a piece of paper with words on it. It has the same legal force, as any piece of paper, where some peasant from Prussia or Germany would write his erotic fantasies about the grand duke...
I'm too tired to discuss further. What I've read further is just some kind of delirium. I think, what I've already said is enough. And your "baggage" really needs to be revised. I think that will be enough for you. Good luck. Rasool-3 ( talk) 07:48, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
And why your Sapieha never mentioned that Statut language is “litvin” language, but “rusin” language, maybe because hi was rusin?
For the rest, I recommend very deeply check his writings I catch him cheating with sources. Kutis
Yeah, really? I'm really laghing out loudly!... Maybe, you, as my wise adviser, will show me ANY OTHER forms of the name in the overall volume of the official documents of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, except for "Litvin"?... This is really hilariuos. Maybe you know any other form of the name in all the medieval sources, different from Литвин, Litwin, Lithuani - I'd fancy looking at that.
Looks like you are blind or just don’t want to see. I showed you few examples. For example the book that is dedicated for all churches of Grand Duchy of Lithuania(Bažnyčioms Didės Kunigystės Lietuwos išduota). It also fits to the name of Lithuanians who lived in Prussia. So, I don’t understand which forms do You want to hear? Litwin was Slavonic name and that’s all. The fact that it was used without diphthongs in other languages means nothing but only that they took Slavonic version. But even those who used that form without diphthong(because Slavonic language lost diphthongs) they clearly explains that Lithuanians, Samogytians, Prussians are similar nations, with similar language, religion. And such a people like Jan Dlugosz(he wrote: “Prussians had them unique language, that came from Latin language, related and similar to Lithuanian language, worshiped almost the same gods....”), Michal Lituanus(diplomat, politic of GDL), Maciej Strijkowski, Alexander Guagnini, etc, - those scientists, people, warriors who were enough experienced and educated to know, had strong connection with Lithuania(worked as diplomat, served in army or just lived). And not only scientists, but also Lithuanians like Vytautas(In the title of the letter “Magni ducis Lithuaniae”. So the form is also used without diphthong, but in the letter he explains that Lithuanians are “Auxstote(Aukštaitija-Higland)” and “Samoyte(žemaičiai-lowlanders)” and Adam Mickiewicz(“Lithuanian nation, constisting from Lithuanian, Prussian and Letts tribes”). Also there were formes like Lettowen(Lithuania) and Lettower(Lithuanian). So, I and other people here proved that: 1) Litvin was not the only form 2) it doesn’t mean anything.
You seem not to know at all, that the main official document of the GDL, the Statute, written in the old Belarusian language, names the duchy citizens - Litvin.
I really know it. Thanks for Your language that really helped for us at that timeJ Lithuanians really often used old Ruthenian language. Even Augustin Rotundus wrote: “Lithuanians originated of Italians, how we could predict from language of commons, that is similar to Italian language, despite of that both languages are separated by the time and distance. NOBLES, living together with Poles and Ruthenians(actually “RUSSO” in the original text) in COMMON STATE, instead of native language habituated to using of Polish and Ruthenian language”.
You might try to actually read the article, and you'll understand, that it's not about modern Lithuanians, but about the historical phenomenon "Litvins", which embraced in the past both part of nowadays Lithuanians and Belarusians.
Litvin is just Slavonic name of those people.
Yeah, really? You seem to have a prophetic vision, and travelling with a time machine, just like Baranauskas. Could you show me, when it "BECAME"?.. The first mentionings are all of "Litvins". We don't have any lietuviai at all during the Middle ages. First, show me any mentionings of "lietuviai" in medieval sources, then talk of "becoming" from one to the other... By the way, Belarusians do have diphthongs - in all the named words: Vitaut, Kouna, Jaunut - we have diphthongs. By the way, "kounia" means forge shop in Old Belarusian, that's why the town was named so. You really thought it was your name?...
You don’t have any “Lietuviai” because you didn’t have diphtongs when you took that form.. I would like to see proves about “kounia”. Do You know that the West Belarus is full of Lithuanian toponymes? Ashmeny, Lyda, Kiemielishki, Lyntupy and lot of other are ABSOLUTELY LITHUANIAN. The same with the names. We can easily explain names like Vytaut, Gedimine, Kiejstut, Algird, Jaunut and lot of other. The same with most of the surnames of the nobles who got Coat of Arms in Horodle.
You might try to actually read the article, and you'll understand, that it's not about modern Lithuanians, but about the historical phenomenon "Litvins", which embraced in the past both part of nowadays Lithuanians and Belarusians.
If it is not about modern Lithuanians, why those “Litvins”, by normal scientist, Lithuanians(those who called themselves so), or people who lived here for longer time explained very well about similarities between Lithuanians, Samogytians, Prussians?
And so? If there's a difference, then Litvins are necessarily nothing but ethnic Balts? Eventhough, the main official document of the state is written in the Belarusian language, of which the Lithuanian chancellor Lew Sapieha says, that the Statute was written "in OUR OWN language"? lol. Moscovites also regarded Litvins (i.e. Belarusians from Mogilev, Minsk) as foreigners in 1654, and regarded their "Lithuanian" (Belarusian language) as a foreign language...
Of course, there were few meanings of Lithuanians at that time. Gente Lituanus(equivalent to Gente Ruthenus), and natione Lituanus that didn’t have any equivalent. So, Ruthenians were also Lithuanians in the meaning of citizenship. But now, in Republic of Lithuania, You can also call Yourself Lithuanian in that meaning, even being from another Gente. But the fact is that GDL was created mostly by Baltic Lithuanians, who created that civilization together with people of Ruthenian origin, who could be Natione Lituanus too. But then I don’t see need to create ENGLISH article with Belorussian name.
Sapieha didn’t say it was Lithuanian language!! Lithuanians really often used Ruthenian language. But lot of them understood that the true language of this ethnic group, who “came from Italia “ is not the Ruthenian one.(as You can see from my quotes).
If you can't see this, then you are really stupid. I'll try: the LITHUANIAN chancellor (actually, the second person in the state after the grand duke) is writing in the LITHUANIAN Statute (written in the Belarusian language), that this Statute is being written "not in any foreign language, but in the language OF OUR OWN".
Lew Sapieha, of course, was Ruthenian. But I can’t see where he explains “who is Lithuanians”. Don’t be funny, please, brother Lithuanian.
And all that - regarding, there are totally no any documents or even a couple of words in modern Lithuanian in all official documents of the GDL throughout all its 5-century history.
What about Kosciuszko uprising or translation of Constitution of May 3rd ? You should know that language is not the main factor. Look to the Scots who doesn’t speak Scottish, but still feel they are Scots..
Lies. There's no testimony that Mindaug was pagan. His son Voiszelk was an Orthodox Christian. If you might mean any other "Lithuanians", than we know also dukes, who were called "Litva" or "Litovsky" with Slavic names, who were ancestors of Criwicz dukes, and could not be pagan, but were Christian, for example, "litva" in 1180 - Vselav Mikulich, Andrey Volodshich, Vasilko; in 1213 - Vladimir Mstislavich, "litovsky"
So fantastic. Look at the Chronicle of Hipatius. “Mindaugas(Mindog) sent his envoys to pope and took Christianity. His Christianization was false; he secretly sacrificed for his gods: Nunadievis and Teliavelis and Diviriksis, zaejachemoy bogu and Medeinai”. So the Chronicle not only shows that Mindaugas was pagan, but also write the names of Lithuanian gods… Voiszelk was really Orthodox, but later dukes were pagan.. until Jogiello and Vytaut. Show me the sources with those “Litva” and “Litovsky”. English translation will be ok. (But bigger quote that could help me to see context)
Yes, for sure it was established in Lithuania, which was the name for western Belarus of those times. Novogradek is Litva during Mindaug's times, as chronicles say. If you really knew the sources, you'd know that Mindaug gave Zhemaitia (western Lietuva) to crusaders as a gift. An the second grand duke Voiszelk conquered the lands of Devoltva and Upita (nowadays eastern Lietuva) with his army in 1264. So, where was the grand duke's proper land - ever fancied that?... lol. Voiszelk came to conquer Devoltva and Upite with an army from Pinsk and Novogradek (the chronicle says, they were "his father soldiers and friends", PSRL, II, 860-863).
East Lithuania + West Belarus was really very important place. But just have in mind that most of etnonymes of those places in West Belarus are of Lithuanian origin. Wait wait wait, as I understand, at that time, after murdering of Mindaugas it was like interwar there. Voiszelk was supported by dukes of Halych and just took Upita and Deltuva from opponents and those who killed his father. I don’t see any inconsistence. But from this Your text we can see that You are really cheating with the sources, not telling everything. So, this article because of cheating, bad explanation do not have something common with the sciense and must be deleted. If we want to create article about ciizens of GDL we should write that GDL was created by Baltic Lithuanians and later made Natione Lituanus which consisted of Gente Lituanus and Gente Ruthenus(+some other ethnic groups). Even Ruthenian language was important for maybe 200 years, but everyone who were Lithuanians, lived in Lithuania knew that it is Ruthenian and not Lithuanian language. Egisz , 21:44, 06 September, 2009 (UTC) 195.182.70.130 ( talk) 07:11, 7 September 2009 (UTC) Afrika-Budivid again forgot that Voishalk became ortodox then he became ruler of Novogorodok, not from birth date.Kutis
So, looks like he don't want more discussions, but he wants just to put his version without arguments. He also don't hear what other people argue. So, his version must be refused. He even take of the warning, that this article is not neutral and full of lies. Egisz , 11:06, 08 September, 2009 (UTC)
I wrote enough to refuse Your article. Its only one Your version, without alternative quotes of Lithuanians and those, who lives there longly. Furthermore, You delete even warnings that this article is still very doubtful, and it is ugly. Egisz 15:49, 8 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Egisz ( talk • contribs)
You lied about the name, that was "never" mentioned in another type. You lied about the fact that Lithuanian language was Slavonic, but i showed the works of contemporary people that showed contrary. I know You are very depressed right now, but take a rest and everything will be ok. -- Egisz ( talk) 15:30, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Reading list to everyone:
Renata ( talk) 13:54, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
a) WE DON'T SAY THAT LITVIN WERE ALWAYS ETHNIC LITHUANIANS. As You saw it was written that the word Lithuanian (haha, also "slavonic" yes?) meant not only Baltic Lithuanians. But understanding of Gente Lituanus was always clear. Clear for Vytautas, clear for Mickiewicz, clear for Rotundus, clear for Michal Lituanus. And there were not only Litwin, but also Lietuwa, Lettowiae, lietuwininkai, Letphanorum. It just depends on language of the text. b) I showed You some. But anyway, it doesn't have big importance. Whats the difference if Europe took Slavonic version? The name Litvins is Slavonic name of Lithuanians. At the time of GDL Ruthenians also could name themselves as Lithuanians. - Egisz 15:56, 8 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Egisz ( talk • contribs) 195.182.70.130 ( talk)From the letter of Prussian Grand Master to Livonian 1295: "...quatenus super predictis articulis nobis vestrum maturum consilium rescribatis et, si vobis et vesris videbitur forsitan expedire, quod possitis et velitis adhuc ista b[h]yeme producere exercitum contra hostes Lettowinos videlicet de Sameyten, nos ex nostra parte terram regis Butegeyde eodem tempore invademus. "
Lithuanians from Zemaitija —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.182.70.130 ( talk) 06:14, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Finally, You are leaving. I know that You are sad now, but history is history. I want to remind that you forgot again. Letter of Vytautas, works of contemporary people living in Lithuania or even being Lithuanians. -- Egisz ( talk) 15:28, 9 September 2009 (UTC) 195.182.70.130 ( talk) You asked for another name of Lithuanians in the sources, I gave source of the 13 century where "Lithuanians" are mentioned as "Lettowinos", not "Litvin". And you again not happy. —Preceding undated comment added 07:42, 9 September 2009 (UTC).
I suggest adding some facts from the Belarusian (be-x-old) Wiki, as the current English article is a little bit stupid, it's not about the historical phenomenon of Litvins (as the name implies), but about those who nowadays are called Lietuviai, transposed into past (with viewing the "Lithuanian Statute" (in the Belarusian language) as their heritage... and other stupid things...). So I suggest adding something relevant. I'd do it myself, but last time I did it, there was a lot of shouting...
So I suggest that all the participants present here would choose some points and agree before it's added, to prevent quarrelling. Then I'll translate them from Belarusian, and will add them. So here they are:
So you can see, that such claims are not some "fantasies by Belarusian nationalists", and not some "marginal delirium" - but clear historical facts, supported by many historians from different countries.
So, I suggest you all to choose something relevant from these points (or from whatsoever more), to add something to the article.
Also the article shall become more bulky and become divided into historical periods. And include more pictures, too, as on Belarusian (be-x-old) wiki. Rasool-3 ( talk) 14:41, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
15:33, 26 October 2010 (UTC)~~And as all „licvins” you show us your incompetence in interpretation of the historical facts.
Rasool-3, you need to understand that in the English language, "Lithuanian" refers to the Baltic people who live in Lithuania. In German they are called Litauer, in French Lituaniens, in Italian Lituani, and in the Slavic languages Litwini or some variant of that word. Lietuviai is the Lithuanian word for Lithuanian. It is not the English word for Lithuanian. Litvin is also not the English word for Lithuanians. Please get over that fact. During their early history the Lithuanians conquered vast underpopulated territories which included modern day Belarus as well as other territories that include other modern day countries. Just like the English were able to subdue other areas of the British Isles (with longer lasting effects). That the Ruthenians and other Slavic peoples comprised a significant portion of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (probably a numerical majority) is neither here nor there. If you want to note that many Ruthenians were subjects of Lithuania, and therefore were "Lithuanians" by virtue of that fact, go ahead, knock yourself out. Especially if it makes you feel better. Please keep in mind that Samogitia was also part of Lithuania. Too often these ultra-nationalistic rants are based on " Romanticized" monographs written in the 19th century in order to foster a political agenda. From all sides. It seems more than anything this is a semantical argument. We're on English Wikipedia at the moment. Lithuanian is an English word. Litvin is not. Dr. Dan ( talk) 17:47, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
The recnt change of the intro is an opinion not supported by references to to reliable sources. - üser:Altenmann >t 16:29, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
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There is a much better article at /info/en/?search=Polish-Lithuanian_identity, more in line with the Polish version of this article. Perhaps someone more wiki-savy could merge the two or substitute it for "Litvin" article with its weird population data...
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Sabbatino, what is your problems? The section provides references only from Lithuanian authors who is critical about the origin of Litvin. How it is not point of view? The section also states that opinion of Belarusian authors are nationalistic and fringe. Why are they fringe? Where is clear explanation that they are fringe? Because some person of unknown origin states that. Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 14:31, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
The article completely ignored the fact that even disregarding the origins of the GDL, for the most of its lifetime the GDL was a Slavic state. There is no mention that Litvins was used as an identification name for its Slavic inhabitants. The endik ( talk) 07:33, 31 May 2021 (UTC)