You are quite fast! I just started this article and will be adding to it over the next several hours. Your feedback is welcomed. Aloysius Patacsil 21:16, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
Isn't this the same information?
Maybe this should be moved with Canonical hours. However, your information was a great input, Aloysius.
I have added {{merge}} to the top of this article. This one appears to have been created without knowledge of the existence of Canonical hours. It's difficult to know which one to prefer. While this one is definitely cleaner and better written overall, it manifests an extreme Roman Catholic POV, while the other one has made a serious attempt at comprensiveness. (Which partly explains its relatively disordered state.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:19, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to see more information on Eastern Christian usage. THAT would make this article really encyclopedic. --- Marcusscotus1 04:57, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
About the merge....I don't think that either Canonical hours or Liturgy of the Hours is the best main article title here. Clearly, there should only be one article, but I think a better main article name would be Divine Office. Canonical hours is just too obscure, I think.
The term Liturgy of the Hours is only used as a name in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, and even then, only in the reformed version promulgated after the Second Vatican Council. It is a relatively new title that dates, I think, from the early 1970s.
The Traditional Catholic groups (including relatively new groups such as the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest) that use the older form of the liturgy call it the Divine Office and not the Liturgy of the Hours.
The term Liturgy of the Hours isn't used by Eastern Catholic groups, nor by the groups in the Latin Rite who have their own liturgy, such as the Benedictines.
The Commonwealth English edition is called the Divine Office.
As far as I know of, no other Christian group uses the term Liturgy of the Hours.
In my humble opionion, I would use the term Divine Office as the main entry. Canonical Hours would redirect to there, and Liturgy of the Hours would either be a redirect to Divine Office or would be a short article of the reform of the Divine Office. --- Marcusscotus1 04:36, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
How about this: we keep the Liturgy of the Hours article, but make it strictly refer to the post-Vatican II reformed liturgy of the Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church. At the top of the article, put in a reference to Canonical hours. The latter article should then be inclusive of Eastern and Latin Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglicans (and anyone else who keeps this liturgy). And perhaps change the Liturgy of the Hours category. -- Marcusscotus1 19:26, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and I changed my mind about making Divine Office the main article entry...it is too Latin. Canonical Hours is obscure but more general. We just need to have lots of links to it. -- Marcusscotus1 19:29, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I prefer "Divine Office." "Liturgy of the Hours" refers to one particular version, and "Canonical Hours" is quite obscure. BTW, it is also called "Daily Office" in the most current edition of the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer.
It's really a vast subject, and would require more than one article, but the general overview should only be a single one, with redirects from all of the above, plus "Breviary" and possibly just "Hours." Carlo 23:07, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I see there seems to be a little confusion about what The Liturgy of the Hours actually is. The term Liturgy of the Hours refers specifically to the Rules for praying the Psalms that are now mandatory for Priest in communtion with Vatican to follow. Just like we have two Liturgies, or sets of forms and methods, for conducting a mass there is also a now a set of rules and forms that must be followed when a Priest prays the Psalms. The Title of the article is therefore very appropriate. The phrase Divine Office does not actually refer to the action but instead refers to the obligatory nature of the action in that it is a Sacred Duty to pray the Psalms as Christ did. One does not need a book in order to pray the Psalms or even to correctly follow the Liturgy recently published if you have memorized the parts. I know of several priest who have done just this. However, should someone want to pray the Psalms without the aid of memorization then they will need a book of Psalms as well as a Bible for the readings, a schedual for when to pray what and a book of the Liturgy to make sure they are doing it the way they are meant to. This can mean a lot of juggling, so today, just like in ancient time, the Church has published a book with everything in one place as much as possible. This book is what is known as a Breviary. Therefore I think it would be best to say that the recently published Rules is rightly called the Liturgy of the Hours, the Obligatory Nature of the action is Rightly called the Divine Office or Holy Duty, The Book that attampts to put everything together for Convieniece is called a Breviary. The actual ation that all of these is phrases is linked to is Praying the Psalms. Every Christion tradition does this action in a different way so it would be better I think to list each one seperate in its own article for clearity. Billiot
The result of the debate was Move. ZOMG. I've read it all, yes, see my rant below. Duja ► 10:07, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Liturgy of the hours → Liturgy of the Hours — There may be liturgies of the hours that have been composed on private initiative; but this article is not about them: it is about the official liturgical rite of the Latin Catholic Church; such liturgical rites are usually capitalized, e.g. Anointing of the Sick Lima 20:46, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think capitalization of "the Liturgy of the Hours" (the Church's official rite of that name) is any more reverential than capitalization of "the White House" (the official residence of the President of the United States, called by that name). In both cases, capitalization only indicates that "the White House" is not just any white house, and "the Liturgy of the Hours" not just any liturgy of the hours; that, in other words, "the White House" and "the Liturgy of the Hours" are indeed proper nouns. (Should I perhaps say "substantive phrases" or some such instead of "nouns"?) Lima 13:14, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Csernica, what this article was intended to discuss is quite irrelevant if this is not what the article title normally means in the English language. I have repeatedly posted links to show what the word "liturgy of the hours" means in English and how it is used and spelled in reference works and other reputable sources. Lima has voiced some well-founded concerns about some of the sources cited that were written by individuals, but you and Lima continue to ignore the links going to reference works, professional journals, and libraries. Serious reference works like traditional encyclopedias are not written by amateurs like Wikipedia is; not only their content but also their spelling is checked by very many professionals, and Wikipedia cannot use words with a meaning or a spelling that flouts use in encyclopedias and libraries and well-edited journals. I'm afraid that you both have not bothered to look at those links and/or that you seriously think that Wikipedia can use a word in a clearly denominational and parochial way that flouts use in other reference works, which is clearly against basic WP policies. I will therefore quote these reference works and other reputable sources here:
divine office - also called canonical hours, liturgy of the hours , or liturgical hours in various Christian churches, the public service of praise and worship consisting of psalms, hymns, prayers, readings from the Fathers of the early church, and other writings. Recurring at various times during the day and night, it is intended to sanctify the life of the Christian community. Encyclopædia Britannica The article goes on to describe in a professional way the history and development of the term, which shows why this term should not only not be capitalised when talking about the term in a non-denominational way but also when talking about liturgy of the hours in the Roman Catholic church.
vespers - evening prayer of thanksgiving and praise in Roman Catholic and certain other Christian liturgy. Vespers and lauds (morning prayer) are the oldest and most important of the traditional liturgy of the hours. Encyclopædia Britannica
Fundamentally, they were a prayer book which contained a simplified form of the liturgy of the hours said by priests, monks and nuns. The laity wished to share in the liturgy of the hours, and devotion to Mary was at a peak, so it was the office of the Blessed Virgin, found in most breviaries and other office books, that was adapted to lay use. The majority of books of hours were produced in France and the lowlands. Mount Angel Abbey Library
This book presents twenty-three essays by internationally renowned medievalists and liturgical musicologists on the liturgy of the hours in the medieval Latin West. The essays are arranged as chapters under six general headings: a methodological introduction, the pre-Carolingian office, manuscript studies, regional developments from the Carolingian era to the later Middle Ages, hagiography, and the use of computers in research on the divine office... As a prelude to the feast, Lila Collamore welcomes the reader to the study and arrangement of the liturgy of the hours as the means par excellence of sanctifying time with scriptural prayer over the course of the day, the night, the week, the year. The Catholic Historical Review, The Catholic University of America Press
(showing the synonym's correct lack of capitalisation:) In a broader sense, liturgy includes the divine office (given in the breviary) and also services other than the Mass. Columbia Encyclopedia-- Espoo 07:20, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I can only speak from my knowledge of the Anglican tradition, which uses the terms "daily office," "divine office," or simply "the offices," or "canonical hours." "Liturgy of the hours" is rarely used, but it is not unheard of, and accurately defines the phenomenon. Parenthetically, if this article is to be about the RCC practice, divine office should certainly not redirect here, since many different groups use this term to refer to their daily offices. Why not do here what was done with other pages (e.g., Catholic minister being renamed Minister (Catholic Church)) and simply bracket the applicable religious group, to wit, "Liturgy of the Hours (Roman Catholic Church)" or "Liturgy of the hours (Roman Catholic Church)" or "Canonical hours (Roman Catholic Church)"? Liturgy of the hours could redirect to canonical hours with a disambiguating note at the top of the article with a link to the RCC article, something like, "for the canonical hours as expressed in Roman Catholic worship, see..." Is there anything unsatisfactory or inaccurate about this proposal? Fishhead64 23:54, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Freder1ck 17:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC)Freder1ck
Lima, your chances of convincing an admin are rapidly diminishing because you again present only general vague comments like "many writers" and Google results and misrepresentations of my comments. I never said that capitalisation of "liturgy of the hours" is bad English. I specifically said that this and similar capitalisations are common in religious tracts and internal use in many churches. I did say that this kind of reverential capitalisation is out of place in a modern secular encyclopedia such as Wikipedia as shown by quotes from professionally edited secular encyclopedias, which show the practice that WP should follow because WP should be about religion, not a religious tract. I also provided sources that show that "liturgy of the hours" is often not capitalised even on reputable Roman Catholic websites and in other reputable RC sources.
In summary, if reputable secular reference works do not capitalise certain religious terms, then this should be normal usage for Wikipedia too. The lack of uniformity in RC spelling in this specific case of "liturgy of the hours" further weakens the case for its capitalisation.
I'm quite sure, Lima, that you are not misunderstanding me but purposely distorting my comments to try to ridicule me because you feel how weak your case is. My comments about Microsoft and Lawyer Spelling Style have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion; they were clearly coupled with "my insistence on following established capitalisation usage in well-edited texts", and in no way implied that MS or lawyers had any powers of time travel or otherwise caused the age-old reverential capitalisation tradition in all religious texts. My comments were clearly marked as a PS and part of a defense against your personal attack based on my lower case spelling of "i" in personal correspondence.
On the contrary, my arguments for not capitalising this article's title were based on reputable sources, and your attempt to make me look incompetent due to my personal preference for the spelling "i", which i only use on talk pages, showed that you don't respect basic WP policies and try to attack others personally instead of dealing with their arguments and their sources. I can just imagine how you'd personally attack a dyslexic who presented valid arguments and good sources.
More specifically, you still have not provided sources that can compete with those i've presented such as the Catholic Historical Review, published by the Catholic University of America Press, encyclopedias such as Britannica and Columbia, etc. As long as texts by your "many writers" are not published in reputable secular periodicals or reference works, they only demonstrate that the age-old reverential style is still alive and well in religious texts and even in some texts by religious scholars. Not long ago, even "baptism" and "matrimony", for example, were capitalised, but this would now look very strange even in most religious texts. All your attempts to "prove" that the RC "liturgy of the hours" is a proper noun that needs to therefore be capitalised also apply to the official rites performed during these sacraments, but they are not capitalised even in Wikipedia despite its rampant reverential capitalisation caused by editors of religious articles being amateurs and/or members of the relevant religious group.
In addition, you completely ignore the arguments for adding "(Roman Catholic)" to the title. It seems you're more interested in arguing than in making a good encyclopedia. Let me give you a big, big hint: If we add that to the title, you have a much better argument for demanding capitalisation because it disentangles the current chaos caused by the possible and actual meanings of "liturgy of the hours" in a general sense and in referring to specific services in other churches.-- Espoo 01:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Espoo, let's break this down in simple terms.
Freder1ck 03:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)Freder1ck
Freder1ck, our main job as editors of Wikipedia is to base our work on reputable sources, not to set up theories or develop systems, and this also applies to spelling. Unfortunately, most people who have spent a lot of time reading and writing and perhaps even studied something at a university think they are experts on language issues. In fact, most other people also think they are experts on their mother tongue. However, there are only very few WP editors who are linguists or professional copyeditors and therefore qualified to present summaries of current professional consensus on linguistic issues, including spelling. All others should stick to what they find in reputable sources.
While the idea that WP content has to conform to reputable sources and has to prefer an objective, outside view of the subject and not present it only from the point of view of those involved (e.g. group members) is fairly well accepted, this same principle is much less often applied to spelling and word meanings. This often causes senseless discussions on word meanings and other linguistic issues until, hopefully, an expert helps the editors realise that they should follow the usage in reliable sources i.e. primarily dictionaries and encyclopedias and usually only in rare cases (not yet recorded in these) the usage in literature written by experts.
While official documents produced by a religious organisation can be quoted in articles on that religion, they are definitely less authoritative on such issues as the spelling and general meaning of English words than general reference works, especially ones with a neutral attitude towards all religions. And even a few quotes from a conference of Roman Catholic liturgical scholars and a RC scholarly journal outweigh all evidence for other spelling practices in RC documents. The spelling used by the RC scholars is then preferable in a secular encyclopedia like Wikipedia to the internal spelling habit that is of course perfectly OK for internal RC use.
While your attempt to draw parallels is a good attempt to find a solution to the present problem, there is the very real risk that it will only complicate matters. "Proof" that this risk is very great is provided by your attempt to ignore already presented reputable sources showing that it is not necessary to capitalise "anointing of the sick". Either you just didn't bother to read my opposing vote or you think you can enforce your personal preference by just repeating it and ignoring reputable sources that disagree. Please re-read my opposing vote and look at the sources.
Your examples "divine liturgy" and "mass" are also erroneous (and show you didn't read what was said above about spelling of "divine office" in reputable secular sources) because both are spelled without capitalisation in reputable sources. Not all reputable sources refrain from capitalisation, but it is definitely not incorrect to not capitalise. On the contrary, lower case use is more common than capitalisation in non-denominational and secular reference works. And the only reason that "mass" is perhaps capitalised more frequently than "divine liturgy" is that the expression is so short and that it may not be immediately clear from the context whether one of its homographs is meant, although that is usually an exaggerated precaution and the capitalisation clearly a case of tradition, i.e. reverential spelling.
And your arguments about use in more than one religious group are irrelevant/illogical and prove the opposite of what you're trying to do with this article's title since you want this article to cover only the RC service.-- Espoo 13:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
With respect to the rationale for my vote, I haven't really got anything to add to what I've written above. I don't think that the capitalisation is bad English, merely that the intent behind the proposal - to refer specifically to the usage of one Communion at one point in time - is vague and confusing, at least potentially so. We've run into this kind of problem before. Again, I would refer editors to the whole Catholic minister versus Minister (Catholic Church) debate. It is a constant source of bafflement to me why some editors prefer ambiguous titles when options bestowing more clarity are available. Instead, we engage in lengthy, tendentious, repetitive, and circular arguments about why a certain title would or wouldn't sufficiently reflect what it ostensibly refers to. The result - editors will expand the article to fit with the definition of the concept to which they believe the title refers. This is unnecessary. My earlier question, therefore, to Lima and others remains unanswered. Why is the solution I outlined - to wit, Liturgy of the Hours (Roman Catholic Church) or "(Catholic Church)" unacceptable? Is it too vague? Obviously not. Too specific? That is clearly not a fault. Unnecessary? Why, then, are we having this discussion? Could it be - heaven forfend! - that we just enjoy semantic argumentation as a pastime? Fishhead64 06:15, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Having read all of the above, it is obvious that both capitalizatons are acceptable, depending on the style choice and the context. While Fishhead's proposal (Liturgy of the Hours (Catholic Church)) is appreciated, IMO it adds an unnecessary level of complication for sake "political correctness" (I have a fixed-wing aircraft in mind), and violates "Titles should be as simple as possible without being too general." clause of WP:NC(CN). This article is, rightly or wrongly, currently focused to the Catholic service and its current form. At the risk of being frivolous, I must say that I consider most of the discussion above as "Wikipedia hairsplitting of the month". Editors are kindly invited to amend the article with few sentences regarding the approaches to capitalization.
<rant>Is it
Murphy's law that I come to close RM discussions involving Espoo, or just a result of
law of large numbers? I admit I wanted to walk away from this closing, but it would result in waste spending of another admin's time. In any case, I'm switching back into "busy in real life" mode so, please, direct any further continuation, if called for, here, rather than on my talk page.</rant>
Duja
►
10:07, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
This link will take you to a page where the intire post V-II liturgy can be viewed or downloaded in Latin. It also has a link there to Vatican Radio where Lauds, Vespers and Compline can be heard in Latin.
http://www.almudi.org/Recursos/LiturgiadelasHoras/LiturgiaHorarum2/tabid/110/Default.aspx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.47.43.241 ( talk) 05:19, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I dispute the usefulness of the head photo. It would appear to be a self-done photo with an artificial red background.... I don't see how it helps, it would appear to be someone dressing up in a stereotypical Monk costume. I don't oppose a photo, but I think if we're going to have one it should be someone actually celebrating one of the liturgical Hours, not what appears to be someone in a costume against an ugly red background, so I'm going to Be Bold and remove it. -- Pstanton ( talk) 03:23, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Recent edits have replaced the links to Roman rite with Latin rite. I question whether this change is appropriate. For instance, I do not think it is true that this edition of the breviary is used in the Ambrosian rite, which is part of the Latin rite sui juris church. What is the rationale behind these changes? Rwflammang ( talk) 18:42, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
If this article is not going to be a redirect to the much better written canonical hours article, then it will have to be about something more specific. Looking at the body and the subjects actually discussed, I'd say it's about the hours as celebrated in the Roman rite. I think that the lede as it currently stands is much too general and vague to introduce the more specific body, with a point of view that wavers between a general (e.g., "Catholic church prescribes" them) to the particular. I think that the lede needs to be narrowed and make a distinction between the omni-rite concept of hours and the very particular Roman rite view of the hours as a "liturgy".
My earlier, admittedly imperfect, attempts to clarify this were reverted by Esoglou. What gives? Rwflammang ( talk) 17:31, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
How many psalms are read in the Office and how often do they repeat?
Actually this needs further clarification, something like:
"There are altogether 150 psalms, forming the core of the Hours, and distributed in two groups: Group 1 consisting of Morning Prayer, Office of Readings, and Evening Prayer which has a 4 week cycle of readings containing the bulk of the psalms; and Group 2 consisting of Daytime and Night Prayer which has a 1 week cycle and contains a shorter selection of Psalms."
"All the Psalms are distributed between these two groups in such a way that all 150 Psalms are read at least once every 4 weeks."
"The only exceptions to this procedure have to do firstly with the liturgical seasons of the Year: Advent, Christmas tide, Ordinary Time I, Lent, Easter tide and Ordinary Time 2; and secondly with the number of weeks of Ordinary Time in a given liturgical year, either 33 or 34. The varying date of Easter - which falls between 22 March and 25 April - together with the need to begin Advent on the Fourth Sunday before Christmas, controls the number of weeks of Ordinary Time."
"The liturgical year begins on the first Sunday of Advent. On Christmas day the order of readings switches to a special cycle reserved for Christmas tide. On the Sunday after Epiphany, the cycle is again reset and Ordinary Time 1 begins; On the first day of Lent (Ash Wednesday) the cycle is set to Wednesday of Week 1, and again on Easter Sunday the order switches to a special cycle reserved for Easter tide; finally on the Monday following Pentecost (the last Sunday of Easter tide) Ordinary Time 2 begins, approximately at the point in the cycle it left off, and continues until the last week of the Liturgical year. The only difference between the two kinds of Ordinary time is that Ordinary Time 1 ends immediately before Lent/Easter, and Ordinary Time 2 begins immediately after Lent/Easter." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.79.149.237 ( talk) 03:46, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Is it me or is this article only about what is the Liturgy of the Hours and doesn't mention specifics on how to pray the hours? Rebel shadow 05:43, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
Did not Pope Pius V allow any rites more than 200 years old to continue to be celebrated? That is how I read Quo Primum. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.163.233 ( talk) 16:12, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
The article mistakenly states that the entire Psalter is read in the modern LOTH. Three Psalms are omitted entirely (Psalm 58, 83, and 109) while some verses are omitted in 19 other Psalms, namely, 5, 21, 28, 31, 35, 40, 54, 55, 56, 59, 63, 69, 79, 110, 137, 139, 140, 141, and 143. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.60.0.112 ( talk) 21:52, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
The divine office describes the practice of praying a set of prayers at each of the canonical hours. Liturgy of the hours is a specific format for which the divine office is prayed within the Roman rite. The two should not be seen as synonomous. The Litugy of the hours should be grouped alongside other types of breviaries of the roman rite.
I have made this set of drafts to show how they should be seperated:
/info/en/?search=Draft:Liturgy_of_the_Hours /info/en/?search=Draft:Divine_Office
The Divine Office Page should likely cover forms of the divine office as recited by each rite, not only the roman rite. Magjozs ( talk) 17:29, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
The "Liturgy of the Hours" refers to a specific breviary used to celebrate the Divine Office. There are other breviaries besides the "Liturgy of the Hours" that are still in use for the participation of the Divine Office such as the "Roman Breviary" and the "Benedictine Monastic Breviary". Therefore it makes no sense to refer to the entire practice of the Divine Office as though it is synonymous with a particular breviary. The title of the page should be "Divine Office" and the "Liturgy of the Hours" as one in a collection of breviaries used to practice it. Valepio ( talk) 04:15, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
It's all very well to describe the way the world IS, but WHY do they spend so much time of the day in Prayer? Why these hours? What results are they seeking? What results have they received. If no demonstrable results, WHY do they persist? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Outback1964 ( talk • contribs) 10:22, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
The first subheading in this section is entitled 'Judaism and the early church.' It begins by saying, 'The canonical hours stemmed from Jewish prayer. This "sacrifice of praise" began to be substituted for the sacrifices of animals.' However, there is no actual discussion following this of Jewish prayer traditions in the late second Temple period or in the early rabbinic period. The second sentence, referencing 'sacrifices of animals,' makes it sound as if such prayer traditions did not exist, and that all early Christians had known prior to this point was Temple sacrifice. A full-fledged treatment of the Jewish liturgical background which may have informed early Christian prayer practices is needed. Paramonimos ( talk) 04:40, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
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You are quite fast! I just started this article and will be adding to it over the next several hours. Your feedback is welcomed. Aloysius Patacsil 21:16, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
Isn't this the same information?
Maybe this should be moved with Canonical hours. However, your information was a great input, Aloysius.
I have added {{merge}} to the top of this article. This one appears to have been created without knowledge of the existence of Canonical hours. It's difficult to know which one to prefer. While this one is definitely cleaner and better written overall, it manifests an extreme Roman Catholic POV, while the other one has made a serious attempt at comprensiveness. (Which partly explains its relatively disordered state.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:19, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to see more information on Eastern Christian usage. THAT would make this article really encyclopedic. --- Marcusscotus1 04:57, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
About the merge....I don't think that either Canonical hours or Liturgy of the Hours is the best main article title here. Clearly, there should only be one article, but I think a better main article name would be Divine Office. Canonical hours is just too obscure, I think.
The term Liturgy of the Hours is only used as a name in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, and even then, only in the reformed version promulgated after the Second Vatican Council. It is a relatively new title that dates, I think, from the early 1970s.
The Traditional Catholic groups (including relatively new groups such as the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest) that use the older form of the liturgy call it the Divine Office and not the Liturgy of the Hours.
The term Liturgy of the Hours isn't used by Eastern Catholic groups, nor by the groups in the Latin Rite who have their own liturgy, such as the Benedictines.
The Commonwealth English edition is called the Divine Office.
As far as I know of, no other Christian group uses the term Liturgy of the Hours.
In my humble opionion, I would use the term Divine Office as the main entry. Canonical Hours would redirect to there, and Liturgy of the Hours would either be a redirect to Divine Office or would be a short article of the reform of the Divine Office. --- Marcusscotus1 04:36, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
How about this: we keep the Liturgy of the Hours article, but make it strictly refer to the post-Vatican II reformed liturgy of the Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church. At the top of the article, put in a reference to Canonical hours. The latter article should then be inclusive of Eastern and Latin Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglicans (and anyone else who keeps this liturgy). And perhaps change the Liturgy of the Hours category. -- Marcusscotus1 19:26, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and I changed my mind about making Divine Office the main article entry...it is too Latin. Canonical Hours is obscure but more general. We just need to have lots of links to it. -- Marcusscotus1 19:29, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I prefer "Divine Office." "Liturgy of the Hours" refers to one particular version, and "Canonical Hours" is quite obscure. BTW, it is also called "Daily Office" in the most current edition of the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer.
It's really a vast subject, and would require more than one article, but the general overview should only be a single one, with redirects from all of the above, plus "Breviary" and possibly just "Hours." Carlo 23:07, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I see there seems to be a little confusion about what The Liturgy of the Hours actually is. The term Liturgy of the Hours refers specifically to the Rules for praying the Psalms that are now mandatory for Priest in communtion with Vatican to follow. Just like we have two Liturgies, or sets of forms and methods, for conducting a mass there is also a now a set of rules and forms that must be followed when a Priest prays the Psalms. The Title of the article is therefore very appropriate. The phrase Divine Office does not actually refer to the action but instead refers to the obligatory nature of the action in that it is a Sacred Duty to pray the Psalms as Christ did. One does not need a book in order to pray the Psalms or even to correctly follow the Liturgy recently published if you have memorized the parts. I know of several priest who have done just this. However, should someone want to pray the Psalms without the aid of memorization then they will need a book of Psalms as well as a Bible for the readings, a schedual for when to pray what and a book of the Liturgy to make sure they are doing it the way they are meant to. This can mean a lot of juggling, so today, just like in ancient time, the Church has published a book with everything in one place as much as possible. This book is what is known as a Breviary. Therefore I think it would be best to say that the recently published Rules is rightly called the Liturgy of the Hours, the Obligatory Nature of the action is Rightly called the Divine Office or Holy Duty, The Book that attampts to put everything together for Convieniece is called a Breviary. The actual ation that all of these is phrases is linked to is Praying the Psalms. Every Christion tradition does this action in a different way so it would be better I think to list each one seperate in its own article for clearity. Billiot
The result of the debate was Move. ZOMG. I've read it all, yes, see my rant below. Duja ► 10:07, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Liturgy of the hours → Liturgy of the Hours — There may be liturgies of the hours that have been composed on private initiative; but this article is not about them: it is about the official liturgical rite of the Latin Catholic Church; such liturgical rites are usually capitalized, e.g. Anointing of the Sick Lima 20:46, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think capitalization of "the Liturgy of the Hours" (the Church's official rite of that name) is any more reverential than capitalization of "the White House" (the official residence of the President of the United States, called by that name). In both cases, capitalization only indicates that "the White House" is not just any white house, and "the Liturgy of the Hours" not just any liturgy of the hours; that, in other words, "the White House" and "the Liturgy of the Hours" are indeed proper nouns. (Should I perhaps say "substantive phrases" or some such instead of "nouns"?) Lima 13:14, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Csernica, what this article was intended to discuss is quite irrelevant if this is not what the article title normally means in the English language. I have repeatedly posted links to show what the word "liturgy of the hours" means in English and how it is used and spelled in reference works and other reputable sources. Lima has voiced some well-founded concerns about some of the sources cited that were written by individuals, but you and Lima continue to ignore the links going to reference works, professional journals, and libraries. Serious reference works like traditional encyclopedias are not written by amateurs like Wikipedia is; not only their content but also their spelling is checked by very many professionals, and Wikipedia cannot use words with a meaning or a spelling that flouts use in encyclopedias and libraries and well-edited journals. I'm afraid that you both have not bothered to look at those links and/or that you seriously think that Wikipedia can use a word in a clearly denominational and parochial way that flouts use in other reference works, which is clearly against basic WP policies. I will therefore quote these reference works and other reputable sources here:
divine office - also called canonical hours, liturgy of the hours , or liturgical hours in various Christian churches, the public service of praise and worship consisting of psalms, hymns, prayers, readings from the Fathers of the early church, and other writings. Recurring at various times during the day and night, it is intended to sanctify the life of the Christian community. Encyclopædia Britannica The article goes on to describe in a professional way the history and development of the term, which shows why this term should not only not be capitalised when talking about the term in a non-denominational way but also when talking about liturgy of the hours in the Roman Catholic church.
vespers - evening prayer of thanksgiving and praise in Roman Catholic and certain other Christian liturgy. Vespers and lauds (morning prayer) are the oldest and most important of the traditional liturgy of the hours. Encyclopædia Britannica
Fundamentally, they were a prayer book which contained a simplified form of the liturgy of the hours said by priests, monks and nuns. The laity wished to share in the liturgy of the hours, and devotion to Mary was at a peak, so it was the office of the Blessed Virgin, found in most breviaries and other office books, that was adapted to lay use. The majority of books of hours were produced in France and the lowlands. Mount Angel Abbey Library
This book presents twenty-three essays by internationally renowned medievalists and liturgical musicologists on the liturgy of the hours in the medieval Latin West. The essays are arranged as chapters under six general headings: a methodological introduction, the pre-Carolingian office, manuscript studies, regional developments from the Carolingian era to the later Middle Ages, hagiography, and the use of computers in research on the divine office... As a prelude to the feast, Lila Collamore welcomes the reader to the study and arrangement of the liturgy of the hours as the means par excellence of sanctifying time with scriptural prayer over the course of the day, the night, the week, the year. The Catholic Historical Review, The Catholic University of America Press
(showing the synonym's correct lack of capitalisation:) In a broader sense, liturgy includes the divine office (given in the breviary) and also services other than the Mass. Columbia Encyclopedia-- Espoo 07:20, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I can only speak from my knowledge of the Anglican tradition, which uses the terms "daily office," "divine office," or simply "the offices," or "canonical hours." "Liturgy of the hours" is rarely used, but it is not unheard of, and accurately defines the phenomenon. Parenthetically, if this article is to be about the RCC practice, divine office should certainly not redirect here, since many different groups use this term to refer to their daily offices. Why not do here what was done with other pages (e.g., Catholic minister being renamed Minister (Catholic Church)) and simply bracket the applicable religious group, to wit, "Liturgy of the Hours (Roman Catholic Church)" or "Liturgy of the hours (Roman Catholic Church)" or "Canonical hours (Roman Catholic Church)"? Liturgy of the hours could redirect to canonical hours with a disambiguating note at the top of the article with a link to the RCC article, something like, "for the canonical hours as expressed in Roman Catholic worship, see..." Is there anything unsatisfactory or inaccurate about this proposal? Fishhead64 23:54, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Freder1ck 17:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC)Freder1ck
Lima, your chances of convincing an admin are rapidly diminishing because you again present only general vague comments like "many writers" and Google results and misrepresentations of my comments. I never said that capitalisation of "liturgy of the hours" is bad English. I specifically said that this and similar capitalisations are common in religious tracts and internal use in many churches. I did say that this kind of reverential capitalisation is out of place in a modern secular encyclopedia such as Wikipedia as shown by quotes from professionally edited secular encyclopedias, which show the practice that WP should follow because WP should be about religion, not a religious tract. I also provided sources that show that "liturgy of the hours" is often not capitalised even on reputable Roman Catholic websites and in other reputable RC sources.
In summary, if reputable secular reference works do not capitalise certain religious terms, then this should be normal usage for Wikipedia too. The lack of uniformity in RC spelling in this specific case of "liturgy of the hours" further weakens the case for its capitalisation.
I'm quite sure, Lima, that you are not misunderstanding me but purposely distorting my comments to try to ridicule me because you feel how weak your case is. My comments about Microsoft and Lawyer Spelling Style have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion; they were clearly coupled with "my insistence on following established capitalisation usage in well-edited texts", and in no way implied that MS or lawyers had any powers of time travel or otherwise caused the age-old reverential capitalisation tradition in all religious texts. My comments were clearly marked as a PS and part of a defense against your personal attack based on my lower case spelling of "i" in personal correspondence.
On the contrary, my arguments for not capitalising this article's title were based on reputable sources, and your attempt to make me look incompetent due to my personal preference for the spelling "i", which i only use on talk pages, showed that you don't respect basic WP policies and try to attack others personally instead of dealing with their arguments and their sources. I can just imagine how you'd personally attack a dyslexic who presented valid arguments and good sources.
More specifically, you still have not provided sources that can compete with those i've presented such as the Catholic Historical Review, published by the Catholic University of America Press, encyclopedias such as Britannica and Columbia, etc. As long as texts by your "many writers" are not published in reputable secular periodicals or reference works, they only demonstrate that the age-old reverential style is still alive and well in religious texts and even in some texts by religious scholars. Not long ago, even "baptism" and "matrimony", for example, were capitalised, but this would now look very strange even in most religious texts. All your attempts to "prove" that the RC "liturgy of the hours" is a proper noun that needs to therefore be capitalised also apply to the official rites performed during these sacraments, but they are not capitalised even in Wikipedia despite its rampant reverential capitalisation caused by editors of religious articles being amateurs and/or members of the relevant religious group.
In addition, you completely ignore the arguments for adding "(Roman Catholic)" to the title. It seems you're more interested in arguing than in making a good encyclopedia. Let me give you a big, big hint: If we add that to the title, you have a much better argument for demanding capitalisation because it disentangles the current chaos caused by the possible and actual meanings of "liturgy of the hours" in a general sense and in referring to specific services in other churches.-- Espoo 01:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Espoo, let's break this down in simple terms.
Freder1ck 03:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)Freder1ck
Freder1ck, our main job as editors of Wikipedia is to base our work on reputable sources, not to set up theories or develop systems, and this also applies to spelling. Unfortunately, most people who have spent a lot of time reading and writing and perhaps even studied something at a university think they are experts on language issues. In fact, most other people also think they are experts on their mother tongue. However, there are only very few WP editors who are linguists or professional copyeditors and therefore qualified to present summaries of current professional consensus on linguistic issues, including spelling. All others should stick to what they find in reputable sources.
While the idea that WP content has to conform to reputable sources and has to prefer an objective, outside view of the subject and not present it only from the point of view of those involved (e.g. group members) is fairly well accepted, this same principle is much less often applied to spelling and word meanings. This often causes senseless discussions on word meanings and other linguistic issues until, hopefully, an expert helps the editors realise that they should follow the usage in reliable sources i.e. primarily dictionaries and encyclopedias and usually only in rare cases (not yet recorded in these) the usage in literature written by experts.
While official documents produced by a religious organisation can be quoted in articles on that religion, they are definitely less authoritative on such issues as the spelling and general meaning of English words than general reference works, especially ones with a neutral attitude towards all religions. And even a few quotes from a conference of Roman Catholic liturgical scholars and a RC scholarly journal outweigh all evidence for other spelling practices in RC documents. The spelling used by the RC scholars is then preferable in a secular encyclopedia like Wikipedia to the internal spelling habit that is of course perfectly OK for internal RC use.
While your attempt to draw parallels is a good attempt to find a solution to the present problem, there is the very real risk that it will only complicate matters. "Proof" that this risk is very great is provided by your attempt to ignore already presented reputable sources showing that it is not necessary to capitalise "anointing of the sick". Either you just didn't bother to read my opposing vote or you think you can enforce your personal preference by just repeating it and ignoring reputable sources that disagree. Please re-read my opposing vote and look at the sources.
Your examples "divine liturgy" and "mass" are also erroneous (and show you didn't read what was said above about spelling of "divine office" in reputable secular sources) because both are spelled without capitalisation in reputable sources. Not all reputable sources refrain from capitalisation, but it is definitely not incorrect to not capitalise. On the contrary, lower case use is more common than capitalisation in non-denominational and secular reference works. And the only reason that "mass" is perhaps capitalised more frequently than "divine liturgy" is that the expression is so short and that it may not be immediately clear from the context whether one of its homographs is meant, although that is usually an exaggerated precaution and the capitalisation clearly a case of tradition, i.e. reverential spelling.
And your arguments about use in more than one religious group are irrelevant/illogical and prove the opposite of what you're trying to do with this article's title since you want this article to cover only the RC service.-- Espoo 13:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
With respect to the rationale for my vote, I haven't really got anything to add to what I've written above. I don't think that the capitalisation is bad English, merely that the intent behind the proposal - to refer specifically to the usage of one Communion at one point in time - is vague and confusing, at least potentially so. We've run into this kind of problem before. Again, I would refer editors to the whole Catholic minister versus Minister (Catholic Church) debate. It is a constant source of bafflement to me why some editors prefer ambiguous titles when options bestowing more clarity are available. Instead, we engage in lengthy, tendentious, repetitive, and circular arguments about why a certain title would or wouldn't sufficiently reflect what it ostensibly refers to. The result - editors will expand the article to fit with the definition of the concept to which they believe the title refers. This is unnecessary. My earlier question, therefore, to Lima and others remains unanswered. Why is the solution I outlined - to wit, Liturgy of the Hours (Roman Catholic Church) or "(Catholic Church)" unacceptable? Is it too vague? Obviously not. Too specific? That is clearly not a fault. Unnecessary? Why, then, are we having this discussion? Could it be - heaven forfend! - that we just enjoy semantic argumentation as a pastime? Fishhead64 06:15, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Having read all of the above, it is obvious that both capitalizatons are acceptable, depending on the style choice and the context. While Fishhead's proposal (Liturgy of the Hours (Catholic Church)) is appreciated, IMO it adds an unnecessary level of complication for sake "political correctness" (I have a fixed-wing aircraft in mind), and violates "Titles should be as simple as possible without being too general." clause of WP:NC(CN). This article is, rightly or wrongly, currently focused to the Catholic service and its current form. At the risk of being frivolous, I must say that I consider most of the discussion above as "Wikipedia hairsplitting of the month". Editors are kindly invited to amend the article with few sentences regarding the approaches to capitalization.
<rant>Is it
Murphy's law that I come to close RM discussions involving Espoo, or just a result of
law of large numbers? I admit I wanted to walk away from this closing, but it would result in waste spending of another admin's time. In any case, I'm switching back into "busy in real life" mode so, please, direct any further continuation, if called for, here, rather than on my talk page.</rant>
Duja
►
10:07, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
This link will take you to a page where the intire post V-II liturgy can be viewed or downloaded in Latin. It also has a link there to Vatican Radio where Lauds, Vespers and Compline can be heard in Latin.
http://www.almudi.org/Recursos/LiturgiadelasHoras/LiturgiaHorarum2/tabid/110/Default.aspx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.47.43.241 ( talk) 05:19, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I dispute the usefulness of the head photo. It would appear to be a self-done photo with an artificial red background.... I don't see how it helps, it would appear to be someone dressing up in a stereotypical Monk costume. I don't oppose a photo, but I think if we're going to have one it should be someone actually celebrating one of the liturgical Hours, not what appears to be someone in a costume against an ugly red background, so I'm going to Be Bold and remove it. -- Pstanton ( talk) 03:23, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Recent edits have replaced the links to Roman rite with Latin rite. I question whether this change is appropriate. For instance, I do not think it is true that this edition of the breviary is used in the Ambrosian rite, which is part of the Latin rite sui juris church. What is the rationale behind these changes? Rwflammang ( talk) 18:42, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
If this article is not going to be a redirect to the much better written canonical hours article, then it will have to be about something more specific. Looking at the body and the subjects actually discussed, I'd say it's about the hours as celebrated in the Roman rite. I think that the lede as it currently stands is much too general and vague to introduce the more specific body, with a point of view that wavers between a general (e.g., "Catholic church prescribes" them) to the particular. I think that the lede needs to be narrowed and make a distinction between the omni-rite concept of hours and the very particular Roman rite view of the hours as a "liturgy".
My earlier, admittedly imperfect, attempts to clarify this were reverted by Esoglou. What gives? Rwflammang ( talk) 17:31, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
How many psalms are read in the Office and how often do they repeat?
Actually this needs further clarification, something like:
"There are altogether 150 psalms, forming the core of the Hours, and distributed in two groups: Group 1 consisting of Morning Prayer, Office of Readings, and Evening Prayer which has a 4 week cycle of readings containing the bulk of the psalms; and Group 2 consisting of Daytime and Night Prayer which has a 1 week cycle and contains a shorter selection of Psalms."
"All the Psalms are distributed between these two groups in such a way that all 150 Psalms are read at least once every 4 weeks."
"The only exceptions to this procedure have to do firstly with the liturgical seasons of the Year: Advent, Christmas tide, Ordinary Time I, Lent, Easter tide and Ordinary Time 2; and secondly with the number of weeks of Ordinary Time in a given liturgical year, either 33 or 34. The varying date of Easter - which falls between 22 March and 25 April - together with the need to begin Advent on the Fourth Sunday before Christmas, controls the number of weeks of Ordinary Time."
"The liturgical year begins on the first Sunday of Advent. On Christmas day the order of readings switches to a special cycle reserved for Christmas tide. On the Sunday after Epiphany, the cycle is again reset and Ordinary Time 1 begins; On the first day of Lent (Ash Wednesday) the cycle is set to Wednesday of Week 1, and again on Easter Sunday the order switches to a special cycle reserved for Easter tide; finally on the Monday following Pentecost (the last Sunday of Easter tide) Ordinary Time 2 begins, approximately at the point in the cycle it left off, and continues until the last week of the Liturgical year. The only difference between the two kinds of Ordinary time is that Ordinary Time 1 ends immediately before Lent/Easter, and Ordinary Time 2 begins immediately after Lent/Easter." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.79.149.237 ( talk) 03:46, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Is it me or is this article only about what is the Liturgy of the Hours and doesn't mention specifics on how to pray the hours? Rebel shadow 05:43, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
Did not Pope Pius V allow any rites more than 200 years old to continue to be celebrated? That is how I read Quo Primum. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.163.233 ( talk) 16:12, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
The article mistakenly states that the entire Psalter is read in the modern LOTH. Three Psalms are omitted entirely (Psalm 58, 83, and 109) while some verses are omitted in 19 other Psalms, namely, 5, 21, 28, 31, 35, 40, 54, 55, 56, 59, 63, 69, 79, 110, 137, 139, 140, 141, and 143. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.60.0.112 ( talk) 21:52, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
The divine office describes the practice of praying a set of prayers at each of the canonical hours. Liturgy of the hours is a specific format for which the divine office is prayed within the Roman rite. The two should not be seen as synonomous. The Litugy of the hours should be grouped alongside other types of breviaries of the roman rite.
I have made this set of drafts to show how they should be seperated:
/info/en/?search=Draft:Liturgy_of_the_Hours /info/en/?search=Draft:Divine_Office
The Divine Office Page should likely cover forms of the divine office as recited by each rite, not only the roman rite. Magjozs ( talk) 17:29, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
The "Liturgy of the Hours" refers to a specific breviary used to celebrate the Divine Office. There are other breviaries besides the "Liturgy of the Hours" that are still in use for the participation of the Divine Office such as the "Roman Breviary" and the "Benedictine Monastic Breviary". Therefore it makes no sense to refer to the entire practice of the Divine Office as though it is synonymous with a particular breviary. The title of the page should be "Divine Office" and the "Liturgy of the Hours" as one in a collection of breviaries used to practice it. Valepio ( talk) 04:15, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
It's all very well to describe the way the world IS, but WHY do they spend so much time of the day in Prayer? Why these hours? What results are they seeking? What results have they received. If no demonstrable results, WHY do they persist? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Outback1964 ( talk • contribs) 10:22, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
The first subheading in this section is entitled 'Judaism and the early church.' It begins by saying, 'The canonical hours stemmed from Jewish prayer. This "sacrifice of praise" began to be substituted for the sacrifices of animals.' However, there is no actual discussion following this of Jewish prayer traditions in the late second Temple period or in the early rabbinic period. The second sentence, referencing 'sacrifices of animals,' makes it sound as if such prayer traditions did not exist, and that all early Christians had known prior to this point was Temple sacrifice. A full-fledged treatment of the Jewish liturgical background which may have informed early Christian prayer practices is needed. Paramonimos ( talk) 04:40, 18 October 2020 (UTC)