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It is mistake to say about Kiev Pechersk Lavra as a supporter of "identity". There is only one (but not 3) source by Miller, saying about one local orthodox hierarch (who was not Kiev Lavra Representative), probably archimandrite Innokentiy who wrote a "Synopsis". However, Miller concluded that "Synopsis" author was aiming to show motivation to Moskovy King to continue his war with Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth as well as to make easier the process of Cossack Hetmanate elite incorporation to Russian society. Shervinsky, there is no sources allowing to say the Kiev Lavra Orhtodox to support the Little Russia identity. -- Andrux ( talk) 12:12, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
On behalf of Pletenetsky the Print Yard of Kievan Pechersk Lavra was founded (as well as Radomysl paper mill) where many Orthodox works were published of Job Boretsky, Pamvo Berinda, Lavrentiy Zizaniy, Petro Mohyla, Ivan Vishensky, Isaya Kopinsky, Tarasiy Zemka, Zakharia Kopystensky (who was also Lavra archimandrite) etc. All of them polemicized with Uniates and Catholics and many wrote about the Little Russian people. You can get a good overview here, a lots of is said about the term Little Russia. Note that many of the mentioned authors were directly connected to the Lavra, not just via publication in its Print Yard. -- Shervinsky ( talk) 13:47, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Why does every Russian wiki-paster make this presumption that everyone knows who to speak Russian on English wikipedia? "Your pretension not to know Russian raises doubts about your overall sincerity." SERIOUSLY? -- Львівське ( говорити) 15:20, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
I am well aware that literature in Russian is used at Ukrainian Universities and should not be used in English Wikipedia... But Wiki-talk pages are for improving the encyclopedia, not for expressing personal opinions on a subject or an editor. And sentences like "Your pretension not to know Russian..." and "Why does every Russian wiki-paster" are against Wikipedia:No personal attacks and a very lame debating trick too (undermining credibility)... that in the end will only undermine the one who used this trick... You have real arguments, use them. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 17:04, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
There was a
recent revert on this dispute, with Shervinsky inserting it citing Kohut without a page number. The Kohut article is
here. Can someone verify if it's actually in citation?
-- Львівське ( говорити)21:22, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
This stood out
I removed this passage, aside from the rampant WP:OR and POV pushing going on, but Plokhy] page 38 makes no mention of what's going on in this text. It mentions the Khazar myth in passing, nothing more. I suggest info on the Khazar myth be put back in the article as an 'alternative theory' of origin, but as it stood this text was too rotten to keep without re-writing entirely to keep within what plokhy actually says-- Львівське ( говорити) 08:40, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Shervinsky re-inserted the paragraph into the article. Anyone else have an opinion on it? It still seems to be a bit of synthesis.-- Львівське ( говорити) 21:26, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
What about all those weird requests your group brings in again and again?
If you don't specify where and why exactly is OR and which sources and why are dubious I consider it's legal to remove you tags. -- Shervinsky ( talk) 22:57, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Shervinsky, your shoehorning is not acceptable encyclopaedic sourcing, particularly in view of the POV hysteria in your approach to other editors involved in developing this article.
You're concentrating on Sinopsis as if it were the embodiment of all views held by the archimandrites yet, according to Kohut (whose work you're using as an RS):
Enough of your cherry picking. If you want to put together an article on the subject, use the RS in keeping with what it examines retaining the integrity of the work. Ultimately, all you are engaging in is WP:OR. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 00:32, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
As the subject of gobbledygook has been touched on, can anyone enlighten me as to what the caption for Savenko means?
Does that mean that he was a prominent political activist who happened to be of Little Russian descent (Ukrainian) although he was actually of Russian descent? Should his photo be there? Should the caption be there? -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 05:50, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
As of now this Wiki-article claims: Numerous historians and political scientists share the view that the Little Russian identity still lives in parts of the Ukrainian society. I read a lot of English sources about current Ukraine... But not one claimed that "the Little Russian identity still lives in parts of Ukraine". Is that because English speaking historians and political scientists know the Little Russian identity is dead in all parts of Ukraine and some Russian historians and political scientists wants us to believe the Little Russian identity still lives in parts of Ukraine because they are Russian imperialists? — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 01:59, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
I did read that a lot of people in Crimea still say they have a Soviet identity... But Soviet identity seems to be a different thing then Little Russian identity... — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 02:06, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Identifying with old regimes and rewriting history are entirely different matters. I have a backlog of other articles to be copyedited, fact checked and reworked (including still ploughing through some other articles Shervinsky overwrote and filled with untranslated citations). In light of the fact that I can now expressly state that everything he put his hand to was misrepresented in the other articles (as well as serious peacock statements, weasel words and blatantly POV, anti-Ukrainian sentiments), per Lvivske, I fail to see why we should be under some obligation in trying to make sense of incomprehensible sections or wade through even more disinformation here. I've even tried to find other sources reflecting any truth in citations which proved to fail verification. Lvivske has put the hard work into creating a coherent article of the mess. Everything else with requests for clarification, citations and translations deserves to be nuked. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 05:07, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Little Russian identity article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
It is mistake to say about Kiev Pechersk Lavra as a supporter of "identity". There is only one (but not 3) source by Miller, saying about one local orthodox hierarch (who was not Kiev Lavra Representative), probably archimandrite Innokentiy who wrote a "Synopsis". However, Miller concluded that "Synopsis" author was aiming to show motivation to Moskovy King to continue his war with Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth as well as to make easier the process of Cossack Hetmanate elite incorporation to Russian society. Shervinsky, there is no sources allowing to say the Kiev Lavra Orhtodox to support the Little Russia identity. -- Andrux ( talk) 12:12, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
On behalf of Pletenetsky the Print Yard of Kievan Pechersk Lavra was founded (as well as Radomysl paper mill) where many Orthodox works were published of Job Boretsky, Pamvo Berinda, Lavrentiy Zizaniy, Petro Mohyla, Ivan Vishensky, Isaya Kopinsky, Tarasiy Zemka, Zakharia Kopystensky (who was also Lavra archimandrite) etc. All of them polemicized with Uniates and Catholics and many wrote about the Little Russian people. You can get a good overview here, a lots of is said about the term Little Russia. Note that many of the mentioned authors were directly connected to the Lavra, not just via publication in its Print Yard. -- Shervinsky ( talk) 13:47, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Why does every Russian wiki-paster make this presumption that everyone knows who to speak Russian on English wikipedia? "Your pretension not to know Russian raises doubts about your overall sincerity." SERIOUSLY? -- Львівське ( говорити) 15:20, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
I am well aware that literature in Russian is used at Ukrainian Universities and should not be used in English Wikipedia... But Wiki-talk pages are for improving the encyclopedia, not for expressing personal opinions on a subject or an editor. And sentences like "Your pretension not to know Russian..." and "Why does every Russian wiki-paster" are against Wikipedia:No personal attacks and a very lame debating trick too (undermining credibility)... that in the end will only undermine the one who used this trick... You have real arguments, use them. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 17:04, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
There was a
recent revert on this dispute, with Shervinsky inserting it citing Kohut without a page number. The Kohut article is
here. Can someone verify if it's actually in citation?
-- Львівське ( говорити)21:22, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
This stood out
I removed this passage, aside from the rampant WP:OR and POV pushing going on, but Plokhy] page 38 makes no mention of what's going on in this text. It mentions the Khazar myth in passing, nothing more. I suggest info on the Khazar myth be put back in the article as an 'alternative theory' of origin, but as it stood this text was too rotten to keep without re-writing entirely to keep within what plokhy actually says-- Львівське ( говорити) 08:40, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Shervinsky re-inserted the paragraph into the article. Anyone else have an opinion on it? It still seems to be a bit of synthesis.-- Львівське ( говорити) 21:26, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
What about all those weird requests your group brings in again and again?
If you don't specify where and why exactly is OR and which sources and why are dubious I consider it's legal to remove you tags. -- Shervinsky ( talk) 22:57, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Shervinsky, your shoehorning is not acceptable encyclopaedic sourcing, particularly in view of the POV hysteria in your approach to other editors involved in developing this article.
You're concentrating on Sinopsis as if it were the embodiment of all views held by the archimandrites yet, according to Kohut (whose work you're using as an RS):
Enough of your cherry picking. If you want to put together an article on the subject, use the RS in keeping with what it examines retaining the integrity of the work. Ultimately, all you are engaging in is WP:OR. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 00:32, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
As the subject of gobbledygook has been touched on, can anyone enlighten me as to what the caption for Savenko means?
Does that mean that he was a prominent political activist who happened to be of Little Russian descent (Ukrainian) although he was actually of Russian descent? Should his photo be there? Should the caption be there? -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 05:50, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
As of now this Wiki-article claims: Numerous historians and political scientists share the view that the Little Russian identity still lives in parts of the Ukrainian society. I read a lot of English sources about current Ukraine... But not one claimed that "the Little Russian identity still lives in parts of Ukraine". Is that because English speaking historians and political scientists know the Little Russian identity is dead in all parts of Ukraine and some Russian historians and political scientists wants us to believe the Little Russian identity still lives in parts of Ukraine because they are Russian imperialists? — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 01:59, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
I did read that a lot of people in Crimea still say they have a Soviet identity... But Soviet identity seems to be a different thing then Little Russian identity... — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 02:06, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Identifying with old regimes and rewriting history are entirely different matters. I have a backlog of other articles to be copyedited, fact checked and reworked (including still ploughing through some other articles Shervinsky overwrote and filled with untranslated citations). In light of the fact that I can now expressly state that everything he put his hand to was misrepresented in the other articles (as well as serious peacock statements, weasel words and blatantly POV, anti-Ukrainian sentiments), per Lvivske, I fail to see why we should be under some obligation in trying to make sense of incomprehensible sections or wade through even more disinformation here. I've even tried to find other sources reflecting any truth in citations which proved to fail verification. Lvivske has put the hard work into creating a coherent article of the mess. Everything else with requests for clarification, citations and translations deserves to be nuked. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 05:07, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:42, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
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WP:COPYQUOTE gives explicit permission to quote relevant parts from copyrighted works. Any further attempts to remove such citations will be reported at WP:ANI. Crash48 ( talk) 14:59, 26 December 2023 (UTC)