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Tell me please what Ukraine has incommon with Kievan Rus. It's mainly Russian history which started by founding od Novgorod in 882. Ukraine never existed till 20th century. Even If old Russian capital was Kiev, it was sacked by Mongols in 1240 and all it's papulation was annihilated. Then capital moved to Novgorod and them to Moscow and Saint Petersburg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kovanja ( talk • contribs) 00:07, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
Why isn't the Ukrainian participation against Iraq om the list? 2A02:AA1:1624:1283:4A7:53FF:FE58:F687 ( talk) 20:22, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
I don't think Kyivan Rus' was involved with the German–Polish War of 1002–1018. Although this war partially overlapped with the Kyivan succession crisis of 1015–1019 in time, and the fact that Bolesław I the Brave of Poland was involved in both, the Kyivan succession crisis does not seem to have been caused by, or merged with, the German–Polish War, which ended a year earlier than the succession crisis. It was caused by the (apparently natural) death of Volodymyr I on 15 July 1015, who does not appear to have been involved with the war at all, nor do Svyatopolk and Yaroslav appear to have participated in it after 1018. I think this war should be removed, and replaced with an entry for the Kyivan succession crisis of 1015–1019. Bolesław's intervention is still part of that. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 10:15, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
I think we should take care when using the Result column, especially when assigning 'Victory' or 'Defeat' to 'Ukraine' at times when no state was calling itself 'Ukraine' yet, or when multiple factions were calling themselves 'Ukrainian'. When no belligerent claims to be 'Ukrainian', or when multiple belligerents who are fighting each other claim to be 'Ukrainian', how can we say that it was a 'Ukrainian victory' or a 'Ukrainian defeat'? This depends on who we regard as the legitimate 'predecessor' or 'representative' of modern Ukraine, which might sometimes be subjective or contested.
Pre-modern states. I am prepared to go along with the idea (originally promoted by Ukrainian nationalists, which seems to have varying degrees of acceptance by modern scholars) that any independent state on the territory of the modern Republic of Ukraine since the 9th century may be called a 'Ukrainian state', particularly Kyivan Rus', the Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia (Ruthenia), and the Cossack states before they were incorporated into the surrounding three Russian, Ottoman and Austrian empires. But this leaves open a lot of questions.
Modern states. This still leaves a third main question unresolved, which I presume may be very contentious. E.g. from a contemporaneous right-wing nationalist Ukrainian's point of view, the Ukrainian People's Republic may have been the legitimate representative of Ukraine during 1917–1921 (and arguably independent, apart from the April–December 1918 Ukrainian State period, and the post- Treaty of Warsaw (1920) period), whereas from a contemporaneous left-wing Ukrainian's point of view, the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic may have been the legitimate representative of Ukraine (and arguably an independent Ukrainian state before it was incorporated into the Soviet Union in 1922). Both called themselves 'Ukrainian', and claimed the other was illegitimate and just a 'puppet' of foreign states (the UPR from the crumbling German Empire, crumbling Austria-Hungary, and the new Second Polish Republic; the Ukrainian SSR from the new Russian SFSR), and to an arguable degree both were supported by these foreign powers indeed. The best course of action to ensure WP:NPOV seems to me to apply the same solution: to use the purple background and just say 'X victory' (or 'X–Y victory' in case of a coalition) if belligerent X won, because it is not up to Wikipedians to arbitrare on which state was Ukrainier-than-thou and thus be framed as the victor or the loser. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 10:00, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Russo-Ukrainian War which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 20:02, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Russo-Ukrainian War which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 08:33, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
Achilles lived on the Isle of Snakes — Preceding unsigned comment added by MATRIX0077 ( talk • contribs) 15:21, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
I added a conflict to the Independance war section about the Soviet Makhnovist conflict since Makhnovishchina was mostly made of Ukrainians & at one point wished to create a Ukrainian statehood. I am very new to editing Wikipedia & do not Know how to attach Wikipedia page links to things, if somebody could attach the link from the Soviet-Makhnovist Conflict page that would be great. 47.229.144.239 ( talk) 21:16, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
This conflict was about control over Galicia and Volhynia, and eventually, most of them were occupied by the Soviet Union. AK/AL didn't win as Polish gov didn't regain control over those regions; UPA didn't win as the regions came under Soviet control. This is what is called "Another result" and is normally painted blue.
Also, UPA was not defeated in this conflict, as Poland couldn't fight it on the main territory of UPA's activity. Polish gov. only stopped it on the post-war Polish territory, but UPA continued activity on the Soviet territory until 1960s. Dƶoxar ( talk) 16:13, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
My suggestion regarding the conflict result is "Another result" with the following explanation.
I think this is well balanced and historically correct statement.
References
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Tell me please what Ukraine has incommon with Kievan Rus. It's mainly Russian history which started by founding od Novgorod in 882. Ukraine never existed till 20th century. Even If old Russian capital was Kiev, it was sacked by Mongols in 1240 and all it's papulation was annihilated. Then capital moved to Novgorod and them to Moscow and Saint Petersburg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kovanja ( talk • contribs) 00:07, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
Why isn't the Ukrainian participation against Iraq om the list? 2A02:AA1:1624:1283:4A7:53FF:FE58:F687 ( talk) 20:22, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
I don't think Kyivan Rus' was involved with the German–Polish War of 1002–1018. Although this war partially overlapped with the Kyivan succession crisis of 1015–1019 in time, and the fact that Bolesław I the Brave of Poland was involved in both, the Kyivan succession crisis does not seem to have been caused by, or merged with, the German–Polish War, which ended a year earlier than the succession crisis. It was caused by the (apparently natural) death of Volodymyr I on 15 July 1015, who does not appear to have been involved with the war at all, nor do Svyatopolk and Yaroslav appear to have participated in it after 1018. I think this war should be removed, and replaced with an entry for the Kyivan succession crisis of 1015–1019. Bolesław's intervention is still part of that. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 10:15, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
I think we should take care when using the Result column, especially when assigning 'Victory' or 'Defeat' to 'Ukraine' at times when no state was calling itself 'Ukraine' yet, or when multiple factions were calling themselves 'Ukrainian'. When no belligerent claims to be 'Ukrainian', or when multiple belligerents who are fighting each other claim to be 'Ukrainian', how can we say that it was a 'Ukrainian victory' or a 'Ukrainian defeat'? This depends on who we regard as the legitimate 'predecessor' or 'representative' of modern Ukraine, which might sometimes be subjective or contested.
Pre-modern states. I am prepared to go along with the idea (originally promoted by Ukrainian nationalists, which seems to have varying degrees of acceptance by modern scholars) that any independent state on the territory of the modern Republic of Ukraine since the 9th century may be called a 'Ukrainian state', particularly Kyivan Rus', the Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia (Ruthenia), and the Cossack states before they were incorporated into the surrounding three Russian, Ottoman and Austrian empires. But this leaves open a lot of questions.
Modern states. This still leaves a third main question unresolved, which I presume may be very contentious. E.g. from a contemporaneous right-wing nationalist Ukrainian's point of view, the Ukrainian People's Republic may have been the legitimate representative of Ukraine during 1917–1921 (and arguably independent, apart from the April–December 1918 Ukrainian State period, and the post- Treaty of Warsaw (1920) period), whereas from a contemporaneous left-wing Ukrainian's point of view, the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic may have been the legitimate representative of Ukraine (and arguably an independent Ukrainian state before it was incorporated into the Soviet Union in 1922). Both called themselves 'Ukrainian', and claimed the other was illegitimate and just a 'puppet' of foreign states (the UPR from the crumbling German Empire, crumbling Austria-Hungary, and the new Second Polish Republic; the Ukrainian SSR from the new Russian SFSR), and to an arguable degree both were supported by these foreign powers indeed. The best course of action to ensure WP:NPOV seems to me to apply the same solution: to use the purple background and just say 'X victory' (or 'X–Y victory' in case of a coalition) if belligerent X won, because it is not up to Wikipedians to arbitrare on which state was Ukrainier-than-thou and thus be framed as the victor or the loser. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 10:00, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Russo-Ukrainian War which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 20:02, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Russo-Ukrainian War which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 08:33, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
Achilles lived on the Isle of Snakes — Preceding unsigned comment added by MATRIX0077 ( talk • contribs) 15:21, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
I added a conflict to the Independance war section about the Soviet Makhnovist conflict since Makhnovishchina was mostly made of Ukrainians & at one point wished to create a Ukrainian statehood. I am very new to editing Wikipedia & do not Know how to attach Wikipedia page links to things, if somebody could attach the link from the Soviet-Makhnovist Conflict page that would be great. 47.229.144.239 ( talk) 21:16, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
This conflict was about control over Galicia and Volhynia, and eventually, most of them were occupied by the Soviet Union. AK/AL didn't win as Polish gov didn't regain control over those regions; UPA didn't win as the regions came under Soviet control. This is what is called "Another result" and is normally painted blue.
Also, UPA was not defeated in this conflict, as Poland couldn't fight it on the main territory of UPA's activity. Polish gov. only stopped it on the post-war Polish territory, but UPA continued activity on the Soviet territory until 1960s. Dƶoxar ( talk) 16:13, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
My suggestion regarding the conflict result is "Another result" with the following explanation.
I think this is well balanced and historically correct statement.
References