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I started this page as an "all-time" list of cities and towns that have, or once had, "town tramway" service, also known as "urban tramway," "streetcar" and "light rail transit."
The intent is to list "all" tramway cities, including type of traction (horse, cable, electric) and key dates by year (opening, electrification, closing).
The distinction between "town tramways" and other rail transit service is not "well-defined." For example, some short "interurban electric railways" in the U.S. might also be considered as "town tramways," serving two adjacent (or nearby) towns.
Although it is not the intent to duplicate the "List of light-rail transit systems," separate lists for "closed" and "operating" systems might be confusing. For the time being, I have included "operating" systems together with "closed" ones.
I have "complete" information for a handful of countries, but partial (or none) for others. I'll make the list of countries and continents, and add the information I have on hand. Ldemery 00:46, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I have divided the list into three sections to keep file size under control. Ldemery 23:23, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Doesn’t the size of the files justify splitting further into North America, South America & Oceania? While Oceania is first, South Americans have to page thru all of Oceania and North America to get to South America? The Trams in Australasia article needs splitting into Trams in Australia & Trams in New Zealand (where I am) too; will do when I have time (& add NZ refs). (Australasia being roughly equivalent to Oceania, though there may have been the odd horse system in Fiji or PNG; leaving out Hawaii which is part of Oceania!). Hugo999 12:07, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
At this point, the answer is "yes, and then some!" That is my "next" project folowing completion of "wikitabling." Ldemery 05:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I have split the "Oceania, North America and South America" list into three parts: "Oceania," "North America" and "Central and South America." I have also moved Hawaii to Oceania (. . . which will probably attract multiple re-edits . . .), retaining a link in the "North America" list. I have also added links as appropriate for "transcontinental countries," e.g. Turkey. Ldemery 08:20, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
From checking “Cane Train” there were tramway systems in Levuka from 1884 and Suva from the 1880s – horses and manpower. Mentioned in passing as outside the scope of the book. Plus the 1986 (from cane railway gear) the 16 km Coral Coast Railway Co for tourists to Natadola Beach (well that’s a railway). Will add to Oceania. Hugo999 14:40, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I've added "Cane Train" to the book list. 71.217.50.180 05:08, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
“Rail transport in Fiji” seems the best page to have for both the “Cane Railways” which are usually called tramways though really light railways and the two urban tramways; two 19c passenger tram systems in Levuka & Suva does not justify a separate page/article! (Or call it Railways and tramways in Fiji?). Hugo999 09:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Changed "Van der Gragt" in: Gragt, Frits van der | ibid. added second Dutch source of HTM LRV nl:GTL8 / Borgdorff ing.D.A. & Ploeger (LL.M.) mr.Dr.H.D. / The Hague, Netherlands - 2000 / HTV (association) --- about Hague articulated tram GTL8 ISBN 9090139354 = 86.83.155.44 13:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the "unreferenced" tags that "DAJF" has placed, repeatedly, on "sub-lists" for various countries, "broken" out of this list for the purpose of reducing file size.
This repeated placing of "unreferenced" tags - together with removal of the "References" line, with the internal link "Books, Periodicals and External Links" on each "sub-list," constitutes vandalism.
It is also not consistent with practices related to 1.) formatting ... and 2.) common courtesy ... that I have seen elsewhere in "Wikipedia" articles.
If "DAJF" wishes to divide the "Books," "Periodicals" and "External Links" sections of this list among the sub-lists, then he certainly should not hesitate to do so. Whether this is a "good idea" is not clear, because it would generate significant duplication, so "DAJF" might want to outline his scheme before executing it. Ldemery ( talk) 03:58, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
About a week ago Beetstra unblocked dAb and wrote on my talk page:
The edits he was writing about were edits where dAb inserted self references in the articles List of town tramway systems and Tram while Erik Baas and me were removing those references. In the quote above Beetstra was inviting three users: Erik Baas, dAb and me to discuss those edits. As a result of that invitation I have some questions for dAb related to his book "Compilatie HTM Light rail vehicle GTL8" he put himself in the article this talk page is about. I hope he is able to answer those questions so we can work towards a consensus.
Best Regards, Robotje ( talk) 09:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
This discussion started because the admin who blocked and later unblocked you invited Erik Baas, you and me to discuss the edits concerning adding/removing a reference to your book in two articles: 'List of town tramway systems' and 'tram'. First there was such a discussion on the talk page of the article tram, after that discussion was finished we continued here. All the 7 questions I asked above were related to that book (the first 4 about the book itself, the next 3 about the existence of similar tram books). Your last reply you starts with:
Well, no relation at all seems to me to be not a correct statement. But even if so, the reason to start this discussion was about mentioning the book in the articles and that book is what to questions were about. If you were really expecting the questions to be about "Traction equipment or Tramstructure" I would like to suggest to you to reread the introduction of this topic.
In your first reply on this page you requested " .. all the deleted same refs in Dutch articles to be replaced too ..". After I explained that that is something that should be discussed on the Dutch Wikipedia which you can only do after your block there is over you wrote in your next reply " .. Well, I don't waite much longer for that absurd blocking, while you and others can be very helpful, .. " In my reply I explained that everybody 'helping' you in inserting your contributions to a discussion on a Wikipedia you're block on, runs a serious risk of being regarded as a sock puppet and be blocked for a long time while your block will be doubled. Instead of appreciating the effort I made to explain that to you, you start complaining that I like writing about blocks. That's weird to me.
My CV has nothing to do with cooperating to the invitation of Beetstra to discuss the edits. As an admin on the Dutch Wikipedia it is sometimes necessary I block users or protect pages. As a result of those admin actions every now and then admins on the Dutch Wikipedia receive threats on there talk page or by email or encounter different kinds of retaliation for their actions. You yourself have been blocked on the English Wikipedia for revealing private information on this Wikipedia about an admin who blocked you on the Dutch Wikipedia. In the last few years several of my colleague admins have even received rather serious dead threats for blocking and protecting actions. Mainly for the safety of myself and my friends/relatives, I've already years ago decided to minimize writing about myself in a way that can disclose my identity.
Back to the original topic. You wrote about the three libraries that have your book in their collection that for two of them visitors cannot just walk in without any special card to see the book. For the third library (HGA) it was different. You didn't make it clear to me, whether that means it isn't accessable at all (even if you have some card) or that the book can be seen without any need for a special card. So please clarify the situation about that last library. - Robotje ( talk) 13:12, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
So far dAb didn't explain why he thinks this book should be listed in this article. In the answers above I see a lot of reason why not (most obvious one: the accessibility of the book is almost none; even in the Netherlands). So I hope he can explain why he added this book here in the first place and why he thinks it is so important the book should stay listed. - Robotje ( talk) 05:03, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
An overview like above I never even saw on the Dutch Wikipedia (again please provide me with a link to prove otherwise). By the way, in my previous edit on this page I wrote "there is no need for [your CV on the English Wikpedia] anyway" but now that you added the information, what is that with all those numbers like "KIVI: 6638"? I guess KIVI stands for Koninklijk Instituut Van Ingenieurs which existed until 2004. But what is that number and the other numbers? And how come, you usually sign with "ing." but there is no HTS mentioned for the education in 1967. At what school did you get the ing. title? According to this CV you're still working, but elsewhere you mentioned you are retired. Which one is true? - Robotje ( talk) 14:07, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Please stop it, both of you. CV's, expertise, ... are not important (for neither of you). Situation on the Dutch Wikipedia is not important. Old history is not important. Discuss the article and the references you want to include or exclude, without arguing about the authors or each other. Other problems should be adressed elsewhere, through dispute resolution if they are relevant for the English Wikipedia, or off-wikipedia if they are not relevant for us. Fram ( talk) 19:39, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
I think this table current arrangement isn't so good as it could be; specifically, the first column Name of System is:
So, I suggest the table shape should be changed swapping the first column and the second one, and renaming the former “Relevant Wikipedia article” (in the same way it is in List of tram and light rail transit systems). With this, the table shape would become more rational, clearer by far and more useful for readers.
Here, an example of what I'm speaking about; current:
Name of System | Location | Traction Type |
Date (From) | Date (To) | Notes |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Trams in Padua | Padua (Padova) | Electric | 1907 | 1954 | Gauge:
1,000 mm (3 ft 3+3⁄8 in) |
Electric | 29 October 2007 | Translohr. |
after the change:
Location | Relevant Wikipedia article | Traction Type |
Date (From) | Date (To) | Notes |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Padua (Padova) | Horse | 1983 | 1907 | ||
Electric | 1907 | 1954 | Gauge:
1,000 mm (3 ft 3+3⁄8 in) | ||
Trams in Padua | Electric | 29 October 2007 | Translohr. |
I also suggest a format change applicable whenever there were (or are) two or more independent tram systems operating concurrently within a single metropolitan area: in order to give a clearer and more intuitive view of the situation, I think there should be a row that identifies the metropolitan area (bold, gray-written with a big diagonal arrow), under which we put a row for each separate system, each of them preceded by an indention and the diamond.
Here, an example of this latter suggestion; current:
Name of System | Location | Traction Type |
Date (From) | Date (To) | Notes |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Trams in Trieste | Trieste | Horse | 1876 | 1914 | Gauge: 1,445 mm (4 ft 8+7⁄8 in) |
Electric | 1900 | 1970 | Gauge: 1,445 mm (4 ft 8+7⁄8 in) | ||
Trieste–Opicina tramway | ♦ Trieste – Opicina | Electric | 1902 | Gauge: 1,000 mm (3 ft 3+3⁄8 in) |
after the change:
Location | Relevant Wikipedia article | Traction Type |
Date (From) | Date (To) | Notes |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
↘ Trieste | |||||
♦ Trieste urban network | Trams in Trieste | Horse | 1876 | 1914 | Gauge: 1,445 mm (4 ft 8+7⁄8 in) |
Electric | 1900 | 1970 | Gauge: 1,445 mm (4 ft 8+7⁄8 in) | ||
♦ Trieste – Opicina | Trieste–Opicina tramway | Electric | 1902 | Gauge: 1,000 mm (3 ft 3+3⁄8 in) |
I'm well aware the whole change will require a lot of work - there are several separated articles "List of town tramway systems in XXX" to modify - therefore I willingly will offer myself to make it thoroughly, if there's consensus about my suggestions. I’m not sure in which article talk page I had to put this post in order to ensure it the highest possible visibility, so I chose the “mother” list hoping that
IJBall,
SJ Morg,
Ldemery and other contributors could tell their opinions about proposed improvements.
Yak79 (
talk)
18:32, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on List of town tramway systems. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I started this page as an "all-time" list of cities and towns that have, or once had, "town tramway" service, also known as "urban tramway," "streetcar" and "light rail transit."
The intent is to list "all" tramway cities, including type of traction (horse, cable, electric) and key dates by year (opening, electrification, closing).
The distinction between "town tramways" and other rail transit service is not "well-defined." For example, some short "interurban electric railways" in the U.S. might also be considered as "town tramways," serving two adjacent (or nearby) towns.
Although it is not the intent to duplicate the "List of light-rail transit systems," separate lists for "closed" and "operating" systems might be confusing. For the time being, I have included "operating" systems together with "closed" ones.
I have "complete" information for a handful of countries, but partial (or none) for others. I'll make the list of countries and continents, and add the information I have on hand. Ldemery 00:46, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I have divided the list into three sections to keep file size under control. Ldemery 23:23, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Doesn’t the size of the files justify splitting further into North America, South America & Oceania? While Oceania is first, South Americans have to page thru all of Oceania and North America to get to South America? The Trams in Australasia article needs splitting into Trams in Australia & Trams in New Zealand (where I am) too; will do when I have time (& add NZ refs). (Australasia being roughly equivalent to Oceania, though there may have been the odd horse system in Fiji or PNG; leaving out Hawaii which is part of Oceania!). Hugo999 12:07, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
At this point, the answer is "yes, and then some!" That is my "next" project folowing completion of "wikitabling." Ldemery 05:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I have split the "Oceania, North America and South America" list into three parts: "Oceania," "North America" and "Central and South America." I have also moved Hawaii to Oceania (. . . which will probably attract multiple re-edits . . .), retaining a link in the "North America" list. I have also added links as appropriate for "transcontinental countries," e.g. Turkey. Ldemery 08:20, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
From checking “Cane Train” there were tramway systems in Levuka from 1884 and Suva from the 1880s – horses and manpower. Mentioned in passing as outside the scope of the book. Plus the 1986 (from cane railway gear) the 16 km Coral Coast Railway Co for tourists to Natadola Beach (well that’s a railway). Will add to Oceania. Hugo999 14:40, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I've added "Cane Train" to the book list. 71.217.50.180 05:08, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
“Rail transport in Fiji” seems the best page to have for both the “Cane Railways” which are usually called tramways though really light railways and the two urban tramways; two 19c passenger tram systems in Levuka & Suva does not justify a separate page/article! (Or call it Railways and tramways in Fiji?). Hugo999 09:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Changed "Van der Gragt" in: Gragt, Frits van der | ibid. added second Dutch source of HTM LRV nl:GTL8 / Borgdorff ing.D.A. & Ploeger (LL.M.) mr.Dr.H.D. / The Hague, Netherlands - 2000 / HTV (association) --- about Hague articulated tram GTL8 ISBN 9090139354 = 86.83.155.44 13:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the "unreferenced" tags that "DAJF" has placed, repeatedly, on "sub-lists" for various countries, "broken" out of this list for the purpose of reducing file size.
This repeated placing of "unreferenced" tags - together with removal of the "References" line, with the internal link "Books, Periodicals and External Links" on each "sub-list," constitutes vandalism.
It is also not consistent with practices related to 1.) formatting ... and 2.) common courtesy ... that I have seen elsewhere in "Wikipedia" articles.
If "DAJF" wishes to divide the "Books," "Periodicals" and "External Links" sections of this list among the sub-lists, then he certainly should not hesitate to do so. Whether this is a "good idea" is not clear, because it would generate significant duplication, so "DAJF" might want to outline his scheme before executing it. Ldemery ( talk) 03:58, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
About a week ago Beetstra unblocked dAb and wrote on my talk page:
The edits he was writing about were edits where dAb inserted self references in the articles List of town tramway systems and Tram while Erik Baas and me were removing those references. In the quote above Beetstra was inviting three users: Erik Baas, dAb and me to discuss those edits. As a result of that invitation I have some questions for dAb related to his book "Compilatie HTM Light rail vehicle GTL8" he put himself in the article this talk page is about. I hope he is able to answer those questions so we can work towards a consensus.
Best Regards, Robotje ( talk) 09:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
This discussion started because the admin who blocked and later unblocked you invited Erik Baas, you and me to discuss the edits concerning adding/removing a reference to your book in two articles: 'List of town tramway systems' and 'tram'. First there was such a discussion on the talk page of the article tram, after that discussion was finished we continued here. All the 7 questions I asked above were related to that book (the first 4 about the book itself, the next 3 about the existence of similar tram books). Your last reply you starts with:
Well, no relation at all seems to me to be not a correct statement. But even if so, the reason to start this discussion was about mentioning the book in the articles and that book is what to questions were about. If you were really expecting the questions to be about "Traction equipment or Tramstructure" I would like to suggest to you to reread the introduction of this topic.
In your first reply on this page you requested " .. all the deleted same refs in Dutch articles to be replaced too ..". After I explained that that is something that should be discussed on the Dutch Wikipedia which you can only do after your block there is over you wrote in your next reply " .. Well, I don't waite much longer for that absurd blocking, while you and others can be very helpful, .. " In my reply I explained that everybody 'helping' you in inserting your contributions to a discussion on a Wikipedia you're block on, runs a serious risk of being regarded as a sock puppet and be blocked for a long time while your block will be doubled. Instead of appreciating the effort I made to explain that to you, you start complaining that I like writing about blocks. That's weird to me.
My CV has nothing to do with cooperating to the invitation of Beetstra to discuss the edits. As an admin on the Dutch Wikipedia it is sometimes necessary I block users or protect pages. As a result of those admin actions every now and then admins on the Dutch Wikipedia receive threats on there talk page or by email or encounter different kinds of retaliation for their actions. You yourself have been blocked on the English Wikipedia for revealing private information on this Wikipedia about an admin who blocked you on the Dutch Wikipedia. In the last few years several of my colleague admins have even received rather serious dead threats for blocking and protecting actions. Mainly for the safety of myself and my friends/relatives, I've already years ago decided to minimize writing about myself in a way that can disclose my identity.
Back to the original topic. You wrote about the three libraries that have your book in their collection that for two of them visitors cannot just walk in without any special card to see the book. For the third library (HGA) it was different. You didn't make it clear to me, whether that means it isn't accessable at all (even if you have some card) or that the book can be seen without any need for a special card. So please clarify the situation about that last library. - Robotje ( talk) 13:12, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
So far dAb didn't explain why he thinks this book should be listed in this article. In the answers above I see a lot of reason why not (most obvious one: the accessibility of the book is almost none; even in the Netherlands). So I hope he can explain why he added this book here in the first place and why he thinks it is so important the book should stay listed. - Robotje ( talk) 05:03, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
An overview like above I never even saw on the Dutch Wikipedia (again please provide me with a link to prove otherwise). By the way, in my previous edit on this page I wrote "there is no need for [your CV on the English Wikpedia] anyway" but now that you added the information, what is that with all those numbers like "KIVI: 6638"? I guess KIVI stands for Koninklijk Instituut Van Ingenieurs which existed until 2004. But what is that number and the other numbers? And how come, you usually sign with "ing." but there is no HTS mentioned for the education in 1967. At what school did you get the ing. title? According to this CV you're still working, but elsewhere you mentioned you are retired. Which one is true? - Robotje ( talk) 14:07, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Please stop it, both of you. CV's, expertise, ... are not important (for neither of you). Situation on the Dutch Wikipedia is not important. Old history is not important. Discuss the article and the references you want to include or exclude, without arguing about the authors or each other. Other problems should be adressed elsewhere, through dispute resolution if they are relevant for the English Wikipedia, or off-wikipedia if they are not relevant for us. Fram ( talk) 19:39, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
I think this table current arrangement isn't so good as it could be; specifically, the first column Name of System is:
So, I suggest the table shape should be changed swapping the first column and the second one, and renaming the former “Relevant Wikipedia article” (in the same way it is in List of tram and light rail transit systems). With this, the table shape would become more rational, clearer by far and more useful for readers.
Here, an example of what I'm speaking about; current:
Name of System | Location | Traction Type |
Date (From) | Date (To) | Notes |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Trams in Padua | Padua (Padova) | Electric | 1907 | 1954 | Gauge:
1,000 mm (3 ft 3+3⁄8 in) |
Electric | 29 October 2007 | Translohr. |
after the change:
Location | Relevant Wikipedia article | Traction Type |
Date (From) | Date (To) | Notes |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Padua (Padova) | Horse | 1983 | 1907 | ||
Electric | 1907 | 1954 | Gauge:
1,000 mm (3 ft 3+3⁄8 in) | ||
Trams in Padua | Electric | 29 October 2007 | Translohr. |
I also suggest a format change applicable whenever there were (or are) two or more independent tram systems operating concurrently within a single metropolitan area: in order to give a clearer and more intuitive view of the situation, I think there should be a row that identifies the metropolitan area (bold, gray-written with a big diagonal arrow), under which we put a row for each separate system, each of them preceded by an indention and the diamond.
Here, an example of this latter suggestion; current:
Name of System | Location | Traction Type |
Date (From) | Date (To) | Notes |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Trams in Trieste | Trieste | Horse | 1876 | 1914 | Gauge: 1,445 mm (4 ft 8+7⁄8 in) |
Electric | 1900 | 1970 | Gauge: 1,445 mm (4 ft 8+7⁄8 in) | ||
Trieste–Opicina tramway | ♦ Trieste – Opicina | Electric | 1902 | Gauge: 1,000 mm (3 ft 3+3⁄8 in) |
after the change:
Location | Relevant Wikipedia article | Traction Type |
Date (From) | Date (To) | Notes |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
↘ Trieste | |||||
♦ Trieste urban network | Trams in Trieste | Horse | 1876 | 1914 | Gauge: 1,445 mm (4 ft 8+7⁄8 in) |
Electric | 1900 | 1970 | Gauge: 1,445 mm (4 ft 8+7⁄8 in) | ||
♦ Trieste – Opicina | Trieste–Opicina tramway | Electric | 1902 | Gauge: 1,000 mm (3 ft 3+3⁄8 in) |
I'm well aware the whole change will require a lot of work - there are several separated articles "List of town tramway systems in XXX" to modify - therefore I willingly will offer myself to make it thoroughly, if there's consensus about my suggestions. I’m not sure in which article talk page I had to put this post in order to ensure it the highest possible visibility, so I chose the “mother” list hoping that
IJBall,
SJ Morg,
Ldemery and other contributors could tell their opinions about proposed improvements.
Yak79 (
talk)
18:32, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on List of town tramway systems. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:07, 3 January 2018 (UTC)