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Excuse me while I catch my breath, but where is it stated as correct that Norway is part of the Baltic states??? I realize that in some extremely wide geographical definitions of the Baltic region (even here in Wikipedia, alas) Norway is listed, but still it gives a close-to (if not totally) erroneous picture of the area. When referring to the Baltic states, however, one always means the former Soviet republics (and as of last midnight, brand new EU members) of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, located along the eastern Baltic sea coast between Russia and Poland...
I therefore strongly suggest that, in this article's list and the corresponding 'listbox', Operation Weserübung is assigned to a theatre of war called Scandinavia (or less good, Nordic region). Anything else would be totally misleading, no matter what some sources might state. -- Wernher 22:32, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
It was not an invasion of Scandinavia because Sweeden was neutral. It was an invasion of Denmark and Norway. Philip Baird Shearer 22:58, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Why is the Spanish Civil War considered contemporaneous? DJ Clayworth 19:04, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I think that it is useful to put the initial phases of the European Theatre under Blitzkrieg because they were German initiated and with the exception of the Battle of Britain German victories.
I would not include Eastern Front because although Operation Barbarossa started as a Blitzkrieg it rapidaly became a war of attrition. Philip Baird Shearer 22:58, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The North West Europe Campaign if it refers to anything was the British Canadian push of 44-45. But the Americans fought on a wide front not a narrow one. For example those troops who landed on French med coast (US Seventh Army) in operation Operation Dragoon fought on the Western Front not the "North West European Front". Also the US front stretched from Belgium to Switzerland so if WWI had a Western Front so did WWII. Philip Baird Shearer 20:06, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Once the Western allies came into the war they were allied with the nationalists under Chiang Kai-shek (who declared war on Japan after Pearl Harbour,) the war was not a concurrent war but part of the Allied Pacific Asian War against Japan. Indeed several Nationalist Divisions fought under the US General Stilwell in Burma alongside British, Indian, and US units. As the Sino-Japanese war started before to be consistent it could be considered as also being a Pre-WW2 Philip Baird Shearer 20:21, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
For example if you look at a web page like: http://www.regiments.org/wars/ww2/eur-nw44.htm you will see no mention of the Rhineland campaign and a lot about battle honours in Belgium and Dutch towns. Also you will notice that British campaign honours are all North West Europe by year. If ever you have travelled around North East France, Benelux and North West Germany, you would know that describing campaigns by country is a very artificial thing to do.
There are similar problems in my opinion with Italy. http://www.regiments.org/wars/ww2/italy.htm
Typically a campaign would be a pan to overcome an obstacle (either man-made or natural), onece a breakthrought is made run with it until the next obstacle is met and then start planning another campaign. -- Philip Baird Shearer 23:07, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As V-E Day came, Allied forces in Western Europe [not including Italy] consisted of 4 ½ million men, including 9 armies (5 of them American—one of which, the Fifteenth, saw action only at the last), 23 corps, 91 divisions (61 of them American), 6 tactical air commands (4 American), and 2 strategic air forces (1 American). The Allies had 28,000 combat aircraft, of which 14,845 were American, and they had brought into Western Europe more than 970,000 vehicles and 18 million tons of supplies. At the same time they were achieving final victory in Italy with 18 divisions (7 of them American). [2]
As Chuchill named
Operation Dragoon (because he was dragooned into it) and British troops took part in it, I would have to check that one ;-) But seriously I am not suggesting that we use exclusivly British/Commonwelth names for the campaings. All I am saying is that I do not think that it is a good idea to shoe horn all the action into what are US campaign names. For a start US campaign names seem to be an adminstrative convinience which may or may not fit onto the operations and campaigns which took place and at best they only cover the action of 3/4 of all the allied troops which took part. In Italy it was slightly under half the troops for most of the campaign.
To use an example which are already in existance, it would look odd putting the Western Desert Campaign under the US campaign name of Egypt-Libya Campaign particularly if that start date was used!
I do not think that sperate articles should be written up for both, in the real world the Front was an intergrated one. The continual tensions between the broad front and the narrow front help to explain the dynamics of who did what when. For example Operation Market Garden slowed down the southern thrust of the, two predominatly American, southern Army Groups because they were staved of supplies. The squabble over who was crossing the Rhine when ment that the Americans did not exploit their initial crossing as they ought to have been able too. The two operations "Operation Veritable" (Canadian) and "Operation Grenade" (American) were meant to be two claws of a pincer movement, it would seem odd writing those up seperatly etc. It thing with the breakout and destruction of the German Army in France. Why do you think that American campaign names should be used to "cover the entire thing"? Do the American issue battle honours? Why not have 3 campaigns: 44; winter 44/45; and 45? Philip Baird Shearer 13:33, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
You see we do things for different reasons. I voted for the move because what is there at the moment is an article on the German-Russian War. For me the Eastern Front like the Western Front includes everything that happened on that front from 1939-1945. It does not start half way through the war as it does at the moment. It also includes Partisan Yugoslavia which tied down half a dozen German divisions. Once it is renamed there can be an article like the one you wrote for NA with redirects to as many articles as are needed to cover all the conflicts which took place on that front.
I think you will find that the American names are not SHAEF names but ETOUSA which although similar are not the same thing. I will be interested to see if you have a source which says that is not so. Because campaign medals tend to get issued with the rations, and issue rations to US forces is what ETOUSA did once SHAEF was formed.
As to 3 campaigns. Campaigns by season are just a valid as campaigns by region, both of which are far better than campaign by country in Western Europe. Philip Baird Shearer 21:48, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I suppose it depends on how you view the fighting of 1944-1945. I tend to think it is better done by campaign season which is the traditional way that wars have been fought and discribed in Europe for generations (and there may be several campaigns within a season and a number of battles which are not in any planned campaign). You think it is better to use the American names. I do not think that we are going to agree on this. But as you are the driving force in this area at the moment you view will probably prevail.
However I would like you to consider the following which sums up why I think your method can cause confusion because you have to shoehorn in events to fit the naming convintion. In the Rhineland Campaign there is the sentence "Antwerp, a major port captured during the Northern France Campaign" which is a perfect demonstration of what I mean.
I do not think that one can talk about a "Northern France Campaign" because it covers more than just Northern France and a don't think you can talk about a Rhineland Campaign because geographically does not include north of Luxemburg through or the area near the Swiss Boarder Philip Baird Shearer 19:23, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It is not that it is temporal view that I suggest seasons, the weather really does tend to force campaigning seasons on warfare in Europe. But I am not absolutely fixed on that naming system and no other.
So (1 2) how about taking the NFLandings and SFLandings and run them until the command of the SFL passes to SHAEF or the destruction of the Falaise pocket which ever comes later?
3) Pursuit across France/NWE through to the battles around the Weswall. BTW the British tend to call it the Siegfried Line, because there was a popular song at the start of WWII: "We're going to hang out the washing on the Siegfried Line, if the Siegfried Line's sill there". So something including "Pursuit and Breach" might be a good name. 4) Ardennes Counter-Offensive I think that is a better name :-) 5 To the Rhine (Includes the destruction of the German armies to the west of the Rhine (battle of the Rhinelands) 6 Over the Rhine/Invasion of Germany (don't forget North East Holland and Denmark).
As for the name for an overview most people I suspect would recognise the name Western Front because it was what Stalin repeatedly called for. As there is already a Western Front (WWII) document why not modify it for what is needed? If not then put it into a new document called the West European Campaign (1944-1945) AND reference it in the Western Front (WWII) document? -- Philip Baird Shearer 22:17, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think this should be included here, although it was very small border "war" between Japan and Soviet Union, it had it's merits inhibiting Japan to attack Soviet Union 1941 and as it was contemporary with final negotiations for Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the start of Polish campaign ( Fall Weiss). -- Whiskey 22:24, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Included as Pre-WW2 Soviet-Japanese Border War (1939). It also should be mentioned because it was those troops, who with the combat experiance against the Japanese, which lead the winter counter attack in December 1941 outside Moscow. One of the most important engagements of World War II.
It should not be included as contemporary because it was all over bar the shouting by the time WWII started and to do so is confusing. Philip Baird Shearer 11:16, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I would like to reorganize this list so that it is sorted by theatres first, then by campaigns within that theatre.
My proposed theatres are:
I recognize that there will be overlap, but for conflicts that are part of two of the above theatres (like the Continuation War) we'll have to discuss it in both. Any comments? Oberiko 14:36, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I do not agree that there is much difference between USA and Commonwealth views because once the USA was in the war most theatres and commands were under a joint supreme commander. The problem particularly in the Med/Middle East are pre-USA entry into the war. Forget Rhineland, Austria, Czechoslovakia as they are pre-war. It seems to me that although we may look at things from different perspectives that in practice there are only a few areas where there is a substantive difference between chronology and geography, particularly if Scandinavia is split East West. I think in Europe we should use the terms eastern and western fronts because they are the popular terms. Italy remains a seperate campaign. The areas were I think we need further thought are:
What are your thoughts on these specific areas given that there is already a hiarachy of Documents as outlined in the Template:WWIITheatre
etc -- Philip Baird Shearer 13:32, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
During my work on a general template for World War II ( Template:World War II) I've discovered that the information on military engagements during WWII was spread out on a number of different lists and pseudo-articles. Therefore I decided to merge all these into one single list, called List of military engagements of World War II. It is MUCH more easier to have a single comprehensive list on which we all can work together, rather than a number of lists, with different groups of people working on diferrent lists. I've seen to that the new list does not repeat itself (except certain large campaigns which act as headers for sub-battles). I have currently joined the following lists into the new list:
Therefore I strongly suggest we redirect THIS list to [[ ]], and start working on that one instead, together.
My regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis 21:57, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
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Excuse me while I catch my breath, but where is it stated as correct that Norway is part of the Baltic states??? I realize that in some extremely wide geographical definitions of the Baltic region (even here in Wikipedia, alas) Norway is listed, but still it gives a close-to (if not totally) erroneous picture of the area. When referring to the Baltic states, however, one always means the former Soviet republics (and as of last midnight, brand new EU members) of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, located along the eastern Baltic sea coast between Russia and Poland...
I therefore strongly suggest that, in this article's list and the corresponding 'listbox', Operation Weserübung is assigned to a theatre of war called Scandinavia (or less good, Nordic region). Anything else would be totally misleading, no matter what some sources might state. -- Wernher 22:32, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
It was not an invasion of Scandinavia because Sweeden was neutral. It was an invasion of Denmark and Norway. Philip Baird Shearer 22:58, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Why is the Spanish Civil War considered contemporaneous? DJ Clayworth 19:04, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I think that it is useful to put the initial phases of the European Theatre under Blitzkrieg because they were German initiated and with the exception of the Battle of Britain German victories.
I would not include Eastern Front because although Operation Barbarossa started as a Blitzkrieg it rapidaly became a war of attrition. Philip Baird Shearer 22:58, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The North West Europe Campaign if it refers to anything was the British Canadian push of 44-45. But the Americans fought on a wide front not a narrow one. For example those troops who landed on French med coast (US Seventh Army) in operation Operation Dragoon fought on the Western Front not the "North West European Front". Also the US front stretched from Belgium to Switzerland so if WWI had a Western Front so did WWII. Philip Baird Shearer 20:06, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Once the Western allies came into the war they were allied with the nationalists under Chiang Kai-shek (who declared war on Japan after Pearl Harbour,) the war was not a concurrent war but part of the Allied Pacific Asian War against Japan. Indeed several Nationalist Divisions fought under the US General Stilwell in Burma alongside British, Indian, and US units. As the Sino-Japanese war started before to be consistent it could be considered as also being a Pre-WW2 Philip Baird Shearer 20:21, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
For example if you look at a web page like: http://www.regiments.org/wars/ww2/eur-nw44.htm you will see no mention of the Rhineland campaign and a lot about battle honours in Belgium and Dutch towns. Also you will notice that British campaign honours are all North West Europe by year. If ever you have travelled around North East France, Benelux and North West Germany, you would know that describing campaigns by country is a very artificial thing to do.
There are similar problems in my opinion with Italy. http://www.regiments.org/wars/ww2/italy.htm
Typically a campaign would be a pan to overcome an obstacle (either man-made or natural), onece a breakthrought is made run with it until the next obstacle is met and then start planning another campaign. -- Philip Baird Shearer 23:07, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As V-E Day came, Allied forces in Western Europe [not including Italy] consisted of 4 ½ million men, including 9 armies (5 of them American—one of which, the Fifteenth, saw action only at the last), 23 corps, 91 divisions (61 of them American), 6 tactical air commands (4 American), and 2 strategic air forces (1 American). The Allies had 28,000 combat aircraft, of which 14,845 were American, and they had brought into Western Europe more than 970,000 vehicles and 18 million tons of supplies. At the same time they were achieving final victory in Italy with 18 divisions (7 of them American). [2]
As Chuchill named
Operation Dragoon (because he was dragooned into it) and British troops took part in it, I would have to check that one ;-) But seriously I am not suggesting that we use exclusivly British/Commonwelth names for the campaings. All I am saying is that I do not think that it is a good idea to shoe horn all the action into what are US campaign names. For a start US campaign names seem to be an adminstrative convinience which may or may not fit onto the operations and campaigns which took place and at best they only cover the action of 3/4 of all the allied troops which took part. In Italy it was slightly under half the troops for most of the campaign.
To use an example which are already in existance, it would look odd putting the Western Desert Campaign under the US campaign name of Egypt-Libya Campaign particularly if that start date was used!
I do not think that sperate articles should be written up for both, in the real world the Front was an intergrated one. The continual tensions between the broad front and the narrow front help to explain the dynamics of who did what when. For example Operation Market Garden slowed down the southern thrust of the, two predominatly American, southern Army Groups because they were staved of supplies. The squabble over who was crossing the Rhine when ment that the Americans did not exploit their initial crossing as they ought to have been able too. The two operations "Operation Veritable" (Canadian) and "Operation Grenade" (American) were meant to be two claws of a pincer movement, it would seem odd writing those up seperatly etc. It thing with the breakout and destruction of the German Army in France. Why do you think that American campaign names should be used to "cover the entire thing"? Do the American issue battle honours? Why not have 3 campaigns: 44; winter 44/45; and 45? Philip Baird Shearer 13:33, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
You see we do things for different reasons. I voted for the move because what is there at the moment is an article on the German-Russian War. For me the Eastern Front like the Western Front includes everything that happened on that front from 1939-1945. It does not start half way through the war as it does at the moment. It also includes Partisan Yugoslavia which tied down half a dozen German divisions. Once it is renamed there can be an article like the one you wrote for NA with redirects to as many articles as are needed to cover all the conflicts which took place on that front.
I think you will find that the American names are not SHAEF names but ETOUSA which although similar are not the same thing. I will be interested to see if you have a source which says that is not so. Because campaign medals tend to get issued with the rations, and issue rations to US forces is what ETOUSA did once SHAEF was formed.
As to 3 campaigns. Campaigns by season are just a valid as campaigns by region, both of which are far better than campaign by country in Western Europe. Philip Baird Shearer 21:48, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I suppose it depends on how you view the fighting of 1944-1945. I tend to think it is better done by campaign season which is the traditional way that wars have been fought and discribed in Europe for generations (and there may be several campaigns within a season and a number of battles which are not in any planned campaign). You think it is better to use the American names. I do not think that we are going to agree on this. But as you are the driving force in this area at the moment you view will probably prevail.
However I would like you to consider the following which sums up why I think your method can cause confusion because you have to shoehorn in events to fit the naming convintion. In the Rhineland Campaign there is the sentence "Antwerp, a major port captured during the Northern France Campaign" which is a perfect demonstration of what I mean.
I do not think that one can talk about a "Northern France Campaign" because it covers more than just Northern France and a don't think you can talk about a Rhineland Campaign because geographically does not include north of Luxemburg through or the area near the Swiss Boarder Philip Baird Shearer 19:23, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It is not that it is temporal view that I suggest seasons, the weather really does tend to force campaigning seasons on warfare in Europe. But I am not absolutely fixed on that naming system and no other.
So (1 2) how about taking the NFLandings and SFLandings and run them until the command of the SFL passes to SHAEF or the destruction of the Falaise pocket which ever comes later?
3) Pursuit across France/NWE through to the battles around the Weswall. BTW the British tend to call it the Siegfried Line, because there was a popular song at the start of WWII: "We're going to hang out the washing on the Siegfried Line, if the Siegfried Line's sill there". So something including "Pursuit and Breach" might be a good name. 4) Ardennes Counter-Offensive I think that is a better name :-) 5 To the Rhine (Includes the destruction of the German armies to the west of the Rhine (battle of the Rhinelands) 6 Over the Rhine/Invasion of Germany (don't forget North East Holland and Denmark).
As for the name for an overview most people I suspect would recognise the name Western Front because it was what Stalin repeatedly called for. As there is already a Western Front (WWII) document why not modify it for what is needed? If not then put it into a new document called the West European Campaign (1944-1945) AND reference it in the Western Front (WWII) document? -- Philip Baird Shearer 22:17, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think this should be included here, although it was very small border "war" between Japan and Soviet Union, it had it's merits inhibiting Japan to attack Soviet Union 1941 and as it was contemporary with final negotiations for Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the start of Polish campaign ( Fall Weiss). -- Whiskey 22:24, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Included as Pre-WW2 Soviet-Japanese Border War (1939). It also should be mentioned because it was those troops, who with the combat experiance against the Japanese, which lead the winter counter attack in December 1941 outside Moscow. One of the most important engagements of World War II.
It should not be included as contemporary because it was all over bar the shouting by the time WWII started and to do so is confusing. Philip Baird Shearer 11:16, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I would like to reorganize this list so that it is sorted by theatres first, then by campaigns within that theatre.
My proposed theatres are:
I recognize that there will be overlap, but for conflicts that are part of two of the above theatres (like the Continuation War) we'll have to discuss it in both. Any comments? Oberiko 14:36, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I do not agree that there is much difference between USA and Commonwealth views because once the USA was in the war most theatres and commands were under a joint supreme commander. The problem particularly in the Med/Middle East are pre-USA entry into the war. Forget Rhineland, Austria, Czechoslovakia as they are pre-war. It seems to me that although we may look at things from different perspectives that in practice there are only a few areas where there is a substantive difference between chronology and geography, particularly if Scandinavia is split East West. I think in Europe we should use the terms eastern and western fronts because they are the popular terms. Italy remains a seperate campaign. The areas were I think we need further thought are:
What are your thoughts on these specific areas given that there is already a hiarachy of Documents as outlined in the Template:WWIITheatre
etc -- Philip Baird Shearer 13:32, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
During my work on a general template for World War II ( Template:World War II) I've discovered that the information on military engagements during WWII was spread out on a number of different lists and pseudo-articles. Therefore I decided to merge all these into one single list, called List of military engagements of World War II. It is MUCH more easier to have a single comprehensive list on which we all can work together, rather than a number of lists, with different groups of people working on diferrent lists. I've seen to that the new list does not repeat itself (except certain large campaigns which act as headers for sub-battles). I have currently joined the following lists into the new list:
Therefore I strongly suggest we redirect THIS list to [[ ]], and start working on that one instead, together.
My regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis 21:57, 31 August 2005 (UTC)