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OK, let us try to see where consensus lies. For all the reasons given above and in previous discussions now in the archives of this talk page, I propose that all mention of race be removed from this article. I am not going to be bold and do it, as it will be quite time consuming and easy to revert. Please give you views below. I suggest this be left open for a month. -- Bduke ( talk) 08:13, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Support removal of all mentions of race.
Support retention of race.
Further discussion
I have probably said too much here and argued too much, so I am going to make a final comment and then leave this until the end of the period I suggested above in the attempt to find consensus (I may however, if I have time, write a summary of the various different discussions that have occurred on race in this list).
The crucial argument for retention is that we must follow the sources. There are two questions:-
To me, more than any other arguments, these suggest that we have to remove this column on race in this and related lists. Other arguments such as the weakness of race as a defining concept, also point to deletion, but these two are firmly based on Wikipedia policies and guidelines. -- Bduke ( talk) 04:24, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
1.Wikipedia policy is that major points of view must be included in order for an article to be NPOV. Deleting the 'race' category is actually POV: "I don't like 'race' so it should be deleted."
2.The U.S.A. has more people (300 million+) than the U.K. (60 million), Australia (20 million), and Canada (35 million) put together. The U.S.A. alone has over 40 million African-Americans. Many people 'assume' that someone born in England in the 19th century was 'white', but with the U.S.A. that assumption cannot be made. In fact, if we exclude Japan (where the 'race' categorization is obvious), nearly all the 'minority' supercentenarians come from the USA. Thus, the argument for using a U.S.-based approach is based on common sense and rationality. Not only that, the argument can be made that Europe itself is divided by ethnicity, with divisions such as France, Germany, Spain, etc., (even the U.K.-ers want to split England/Scotland)but the assumption is that anyone from 19th century Europe was probably 'white'.
3.So the U.K. used race in the 2001 census but might not in 2011. Last I checked, Wikipedia didn't exist yet in 2001. Wikipedia can change its mind in 2011, but right now if the U.K. uses 'race,' then to say that it doesn't count is wrong.
4.In the U.S.A., we have things like 'Black history month'. 'Race' becomes not just a factoid but an inspiration. Many African-Americans are told they have a lower life expectancy. However, when they see that some of them are living to 113, 114. etc., it can be inspiring.
5.The GRG data is also published in research journals, so to say that we can't use the GRG data is not correct. Note that Wiki policy says that the greatest article weight should be given to journal articles, and we find that 'race' is mentioned in US journal articles, some of which are not the GRG:
Ira Rosenwaike and Leslie F. Stone - Verification of the Ages of ...To understand the emerging phenomenon of supercentenarians (persons aged 110 and ..... of individuals being supercentenarians should take race into account. ...muse.jhu.edu/journals/demography/v040/40.4rosenwaike.html - Similar pages.
JSTOR: Verification of the Ages of Supercentenarians in the United ...Number of Potential Supercentenarians, by Year of Death, Race, and Sex Race Sex Year of Death Total White Black Other/Unknown Female Male All Years 671 419 ...links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0070-3370(200311)40:4%3C727:VOTAOS%3E2.0.CO;2-1 - Similar pages.
Validated Worldwide Supercentenarians, Living and Recently ...Race. Sex. Validated by. France. France. Marie Mornet. Apr. 4, 1894. Jan. 5, 2007 .... world-wide living supercentenarians for the year 2005. ...www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/rej.2008.0695 - Similar pages.
Validated Worldwide Supercentenarians, Living and Recently ...ing supercentenarians on our list (72 females. and 9 males), while 48 had died in 2006. L. IVING. Birthplace. Residence. Name. Born. Yrs. Days. Race Sex ...www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/rej.2006.9092 - Similar pagesMore results from www.liebertonline.com »
7. Even if one decides to not use 'race' on the world page, it should still be used on the U.S. data pages (such as state recordholders) since the majority of U.S. sources support its use.
8.Controversy does not mean something should be deleted. "Nationality" is another issue: was Andrei Kuznetsoff (born 1873) born in 'Finland,' 'Russia,' or the 'Russian empire?' What about a Polish person born in what was then Germany but is now a part of Poland? If someone was born in 1865 was it 'Germany,' the 'German states,' 'Prussia,' or the 'German Empire?' Is Taiwan a country? Is Kosovo? Ok, 'nationality' is fuzzy, as is race, but if we take a functionalist perspective:
A. The data tells us more of the story. 'Race' tells part of the story, as does geography. Currently, the US life expectancy is something like 79 for whites, 71 for blacks...so apparently race DOES tell part of the story. Just as place of birth, class, occupation, etc. help to tell the story, knowing a person's race puts their life in context.
B. Don't make a problem bigger than it has to be. Since 98% of the top 100 supercentenarians fit into the three most widely used categories (Black, White, 'East Asian'), where is the issue? Of the other two, using 'South Asian' for India and 'Mestizo' for someone for Puerto Rico seems to be a reasonable choice. Finally, part of the 'race data' point is to express diversity...the 'assumption' that because someone is from Puerto Rico, they can't be White (Ramona Trinidad Iglesias-Jordan) is both incorrect and itself racist. Yet deletion of the 'race' category will lead to monolithic assumption by nationality, is exactly the default value that we will see...is that any better? I think not. Neal ( talk) 17:31, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I am only going to address three points. First, I did not say we can not use GRC because it is not in research journals. I said using it gives undue weight to one POV of labeling races. Second, the references you quote are difficult as I do not have full access to most of them, but in any event they rather look as if they are all pointing to Demography - Volume 40, Number 4, November 2003, pp. 727-739, but I could be wrong. Please add a statement to the top of the list that states why adding race to the table is notable and important and back it up with a good source. If that edit is acceptable, then I withdraw my objection for that reason. I will still affirm that the entries in the race column are just one POV and therefore we are giving it undue weight. Third, I do not have a beaf with the US articles as I have already said. Race is a US obsession not shared by the rest of the world so it is appropriate there. Everything you write above bears out that obsession. You are indeed a child of the USA. -- Bduke ( talk) 23:34, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The whole idea of correlating entries with race is quite meaningless, as it is impossible to separate the other factors. For example, there are quite a few entries from Japan, but none from China and only 0.5 (shared with UK) from India. You could conclude that there is a correlation and that Japanese people live longer than other Asian people, or you could just recognise that different societies have different health outcomes. I certainly do not opt for the former. Of course if you lump Japanese, Chinese and Indians together you can come to one conclusion, but if you split them you might come to another conclusion. That is why the choice of the different races you are going to use is important and why one choice is just a subjective POV. So, Alan, what correlation exactly are you referring to? Do you have some proper statistical analysis, or is it just arm waving? -- Bduke ( talk) 00:00, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Amazing. The WP:ANI discussion is at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Consensus vs. Policy.. All this happened while I was asleep. We at the other side of the world have a different clock. I have some questions about some of the arguments, but I'll let those go. I just want to make one point about POV. Alan's concern is that by not accepting everything from the source, we are showing a POV. My concern is that by using just this source, we are introducing both a very American POV that race is important (and that importance is also not sourced in spite of the fact that it has been challenged) and the POV of the USA Census for the labels that are used (other countries use other labels, or of course none at all). It is an argument not for or against POV but an argument between two very different perceived POVs. The ANI conclusion is clear. It is as Neal gives it just above "there is no violation of any policy for removing race ..". I suggest we continue to try to develop consensus and work out the full month I suggested for this process. I am open to suggestions about how we determine whether there is consensus and what it is. -- Bduke ( talk) 23:21, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Re: Npnunda Strong Remove- All you need to do is scroll up and see the arguments on this page about what race is. I'm German but I live in the USA. Should I have a German flag? Adding what race a person is really does not add anything to this article and just causes conflicts. --Npnunda (talk) 23:44, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
No Problem NealIRC. The flags aren't a big issue to me. Still if the flags are from the country born why do some have 2 flags like Charlotte Benkner? Please understand my comments are in good faith. The notes on this talk page are the "premise about how it causes conflict". Sure seems to me like alot of conflict. I'll leave it up to you guys after this. Regards -- Npnunda ( talk) 23:30, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
The ANI discussion was completely unhelpful – one says “consensus can override policy (for example, under WP:IAR).” Another “That is simply and absolutely wrong. Under no circumstances can consensus overrule WP:NPOV and WP:V.” Another “IAR is a feather in the face of NPOV's cast iron hammer. It can't trump it or move it.” And then “The given policy dictates the level of consensus needed. NPOV, being our Number One Most Important Policy That We Serve, any consensus on any one little article page is irrelevant: it won't trump NPOV. Ever .” Another says “There is no policy conflict here.” Another says “I believe you're severely misinterpreting WP:NPOV. A person's race is not a "view", it is a fact.” Another says “I can't see any reason for removing the race column, since the sources include it and it is fairly significant. In my opinion, removing the race column would be bordering on censorship.” Another “WP:IAR requires a damned good reason to invoke.” Then “Guys, you can't "IAR" Foundational issues. You can't IAR over NPOV. It's just not going to happen, ever. We serve NPOV. Anything that takes away from or diminishes NPOV is not helping the encyclopedia, period full stop. So IAR is meaningless to discuss here.” May I suggest the conclusion was that if there is no policy involved there may be consensus, but if there is a breach of (for example) NPOV then consensus cannot override it. My view remains that we are using a reliable source; if you don’t like it – it cannot be censored; the solution is to improve it instead (more sources). Wikipedia is not about removal of information which several people regard as valuable, not only on this discussion page but also in discussions in previous months. Alan Davidson ( talk) 00:54, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
OK, let us try to see where consensus lies. For all the reasons given above and in previous discussions now in the archives of this talk page, I propose that all mention of race be removed from this article. I am not going to be bold and do it, as it will be quite time consuming and easy to revert. Please give you views below. I suggest this be left open for a month. -- Bduke ( talk) 08:13, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Support removal of all mentions of race.
Support retention of race.
Further discussion
I have probably said too much here and argued too much, so I am going to make a final comment and then leave this until the end of the period I suggested above in the attempt to find consensus (I may however, if I have time, write a summary of the various different discussions that have occurred on race in this list).
The crucial argument for retention is that we must follow the sources. There are two questions:-
To me, more than any other arguments, these suggest that we have to remove this column on race in this and related lists. Other arguments such as the weakness of race as a defining concept, also point to deletion, but these two are firmly based on Wikipedia policies and guidelines. -- Bduke ( talk) 04:24, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
1.Wikipedia policy is that major points of view must be included in order for an article to be NPOV. Deleting the 'race' category is actually POV: "I don't like 'race' so it should be deleted."
2.The U.S.A. has more people (300 million+) than the U.K. (60 million), Australia (20 million), and Canada (35 million) put together. The U.S.A. alone has over 40 million African-Americans. Many people 'assume' that someone born in England in the 19th century was 'white', but with the U.S.A. that assumption cannot be made. In fact, if we exclude Japan (where the 'race' categorization is obvious), nearly all the 'minority' supercentenarians come from the USA. Thus, the argument for using a U.S.-based approach is based on common sense and rationality. Not only that, the argument can be made that Europe itself is divided by ethnicity, with divisions such as France, Germany, Spain, etc., (even the U.K.-ers want to split England/Scotland)but the assumption is that anyone from 19th century Europe was probably 'white'.
3.So the U.K. used race in the 2001 census but might not in 2011. Last I checked, Wikipedia didn't exist yet in 2001. Wikipedia can change its mind in 2011, but right now if the U.K. uses 'race,' then to say that it doesn't count is wrong.
4.In the U.S.A., we have things like 'Black history month'. 'Race' becomes not just a factoid but an inspiration. Many African-Americans are told they have a lower life expectancy. However, when they see that some of them are living to 113, 114. etc., it can be inspiring.
5.The GRG data is also published in research journals, so to say that we can't use the GRG data is not correct. Note that Wiki policy says that the greatest article weight should be given to journal articles, and we find that 'race' is mentioned in US journal articles, some of which are not the GRG:
Ira Rosenwaike and Leslie F. Stone - Verification of the Ages of ...To understand the emerging phenomenon of supercentenarians (persons aged 110 and ..... of individuals being supercentenarians should take race into account. ...muse.jhu.edu/journals/demography/v040/40.4rosenwaike.html - Similar pages.
JSTOR: Verification of the Ages of Supercentenarians in the United ...Number of Potential Supercentenarians, by Year of Death, Race, and Sex Race Sex Year of Death Total White Black Other/Unknown Female Male All Years 671 419 ...links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0070-3370(200311)40:4%3C727:VOTAOS%3E2.0.CO;2-1 - Similar pages.
Validated Worldwide Supercentenarians, Living and Recently ...Race. Sex. Validated by. France. France. Marie Mornet. Apr. 4, 1894. Jan. 5, 2007 .... world-wide living supercentenarians for the year 2005. ...www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/rej.2008.0695 - Similar pages.
Validated Worldwide Supercentenarians, Living and Recently ...ing supercentenarians on our list (72 females. and 9 males), while 48 had died in 2006. L. IVING. Birthplace. Residence. Name. Born. Yrs. Days. Race Sex ...www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/rej.2006.9092 - Similar pagesMore results from www.liebertonline.com »
7. Even if one decides to not use 'race' on the world page, it should still be used on the U.S. data pages (such as state recordholders) since the majority of U.S. sources support its use.
8.Controversy does not mean something should be deleted. "Nationality" is another issue: was Andrei Kuznetsoff (born 1873) born in 'Finland,' 'Russia,' or the 'Russian empire?' What about a Polish person born in what was then Germany but is now a part of Poland? If someone was born in 1865 was it 'Germany,' the 'German states,' 'Prussia,' or the 'German Empire?' Is Taiwan a country? Is Kosovo? Ok, 'nationality' is fuzzy, as is race, but if we take a functionalist perspective:
A. The data tells us more of the story. 'Race' tells part of the story, as does geography. Currently, the US life expectancy is something like 79 for whites, 71 for blacks...so apparently race DOES tell part of the story. Just as place of birth, class, occupation, etc. help to tell the story, knowing a person's race puts their life in context.
B. Don't make a problem bigger than it has to be. Since 98% of the top 100 supercentenarians fit into the three most widely used categories (Black, White, 'East Asian'), where is the issue? Of the other two, using 'South Asian' for India and 'Mestizo' for someone for Puerto Rico seems to be a reasonable choice. Finally, part of the 'race data' point is to express diversity...the 'assumption' that because someone is from Puerto Rico, they can't be White (Ramona Trinidad Iglesias-Jordan) is both incorrect and itself racist. Yet deletion of the 'race' category will lead to monolithic assumption by nationality, is exactly the default value that we will see...is that any better? I think not. Neal ( talk) 17:31, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I am only going to address three points. First, I did not say we can not use GRC because it is not in research journals. I said using it gives undue weight to one POV of labeling races. Second, the references you quote are difficult as I do not have full access to most of them, but in any event they rather look as if they are all pointing to Demography - Volume 40, Number 4, November 2003, pp. 727-739, but I could be wrong. Please add a statement to the top of the list that states why adding race to the table is notable and important and back it up with a good source. If that edit is acceptable, then I withdraw my objection for that reason. I will still affirm that the entries in the race column are just one POV and therefore we are giving it undue weight. Third, I do not have a beaf with the US articles as I have already said. Race is a US obsession not shared by the rest of the world so it is appropriate there. Everything you write above bears out that obsession. You are indeed a child of the USA. -- Bduke ( talk) 23:34, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The whole idea of correlating entries with race is quite meaningless, as it is impossible to separate the other factors. For example, there are quite a few entries from Japan, but none from China and only 0.5 (shared with UK) from India. You could conclude that there is a correlation and that Japanese people live longer than other Asian people, or you could just recognise that different societies have different health outcomes. I certainly do not opt for the former. Of course if you lump Japanese, Chinese and Indians together you can come to one conclusion, but if you split them you might come to another conclusion. That is why the choice of the different races you are going to use is important and why one choice is just a subjective POV. So, Alan, what correlation exactly are you referring to? Do you have some proper statistical analysis, or is it just arm waving? -- Bduke ( talk) 00:00, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Amazing. The WP:ANI discussion is at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Consensus vs. Policy.. All this happened while I was asleep. We at the other side of the world have a different clock. I have some questions about some of the arguments, but I'll let those go. I just want to make one point about POV. Alan's concern is that by not accepting everything from the source, we are showing a POV. My concern is that by using just this source, we are introducing both a very American POV that race is important (and that importance is also not sourced in spite of the fact that it has been challenged) and the POV of the USA Census for the labels that are used (other countries use other labels, or of course none at all). It is an argument not for or against POV but an argument between two very different perceived POVs. The ANI conclusion is clear. It is as Neal gives it just above "there is no violation of any policy for removing race ..". I suggest we continue to try to develop consensus and work out the full month I suggested for this process. I am open to suggestions about how we determine whether there is consensus and what it is. -- Bduke ( talk) 23:21, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Re: Npnunda Strong Remove- All you need to do is scroll up and see the arguments on this page about what race is. I'm German but I live in the USA. Should I have a German flag? Adding what race a person is really does not add anything to this article and just causes conflicts. --Npnunda (talk) 23:44, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
No Problem NealIRC. The flags aren't a big issue to me. Still if the flags are from the country born why do some have 2 flags like Charlotte Benkner? Please understand my comments are in good faith. The notes on this talk page are the "premise about how it causes conflict". Sure seems to me like alot of conflict. I'll leave it up to you guys after this. Regards -- Npnunda ( talk) 23:30, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
The ANI discussion was completely unhelpful – one says “consensus can override policy (for example, under WP:IAR).” Another “That is simply and absolutely wrong. Under no circumstances can consensus overrule WP:NPOV and WP:V.” Another “IAR is a feather in the face of NPOV's cast iron hammer. It can't trump it or move it.” And then “The given policy dictates the level of consensus needed. NPOV, being our Number One Most Important Policy That We Serve, any consensus on any one little article page is irrelevant: it won't trump NPOV. Ever .” Another says “There is no policy conflict here.” Another says “I believe you're severely misinterpreting WP:NPOV. A person's race is not a "view", it is a fact.” Another says “I can't see any reason for removing the race column, since the sources include it and it is fairly significant. In my opinion, removing the race column would be bordering on censorship.” Another “WP:IAR requires a damned good reason to invoke.” Then “Guys, you can't "IAR" Foundational issues. You can't IAR over NPOV. It's just not going to happen, ever. We serve NPOV. Anything that takes away from or diminishes NPOV is not helping the encyclopedia, period full stop. So IAR is meaningless to discuss here.” May I suggest the conclusion was that if there is no policy involved there may be consensus, but if there is a breach of (for example) NPOV then consensus cannot override it. My view remains that we are using a reliable source; if you don’t like it – it cannot be censored; the solution is to improve it instead (more sources). Wikipedia is not about removal of information which several people regard as valuable, not only on this discussion page but also in discussions in previous months. Alan Davidson ( talk) 00:54, 20 March 2008 (UTC)