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List of songs about animal rights article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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The current article has a hidden note, stating: Before adding a song, please verify that it meets these requirements: 1.) It was made by artists with articles on the English Wikipedia. 2.) It has at least one paragraph or several lines referring to animal rights and not a vague mention. 3.) Do not add songs about vegetarianism or veganism that don't address animal rights directly (e.g. "Be Healthy" by Dead Prez or "Meat Free Monday" by Paul McCartney). 4.) If a song deals with experimentation on animals, give preference to the term "animal testing" instead of "vivisection" or others to maintain neutrality and consistency in the list. Otherwise, discuss it on the talk page and change them all.
I'm concerned that criterion 2 seems to require
WP:Original research, making it invalid. Could we replace it with something like Only add songs which a reliable source has described as being about one or more animal rights issues, i.e. questions about how we should treat non-human animals
? From my spot checks, the references provided for the current list all satisfy this criterion, and it would address the concern raised at the AfD discussion that this list has vague selection criteria.
FourViolas (
talk)
18:09, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
stand-alone lists should always include a lead section just as other articles do, and the full version of the lead does just that, giving a highly abbreviated overview of the importance and historical trends of animal rights-related songs. It's well-sourced (mostly to academic publications) and on-topic, and your editorial preference for hosting it at a non-existent page doesn't justify its removal. FourViolas ( talk) 12:45, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
Before adding a song, please verify that [...] It has at least one paragraph or several lines referring to animal rights and not a vague mention.This is what I thought would require OR in most cases, and wanted to replace with a criterion requiring a RS for the fact that the song is AR-related. The "not just a passing mention" criterion you're using would add to the revised criterion:
Before adding a song, please verify that [...] a reliable source has described it as being about one or more animal rights issues, and the source includes at least one paragraph or several lines referring to the song's connection to animal rights and not a passing mention.FourViolas ( talk) 13:02, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
Before adding a song, please verify that [...] a reliable source has described it as being about one or more animal rights issues with more than passing mention of the song.
make clear what the list includesand b) is "essentially" a WP:CFORK, but a) LEADFORALIST implies that this is the minimum function a list lead must serve, not the maximum allowed, and b) it can't possibly be a content fork of music and animal rights if that article doesn't exist—at most, you could argue that that page should be created and this material moved there. FourViolas ( talk) 16:59, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
Again, it can't possibly be any kind of fork if the material it's supposedly duplicating doesn't exist elsewhere!
As for how much material is appropriate for the intro to a list on WP, look through a random consecutive five articles of Category:Featured lists:
Now which do those more closely resemble: your one-paragraph, 102-word intro which barely mention music or musicians at all, or our five-paragraph, 399-word overview of important themes, historical developments, and particularly notable bands in this topic?
At this point my argument is not WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS; it's the overwhelming consensus of the Wikipedia community that a well-written list article's intro should provide many paragraph's worth of background, discussion, and analysis. Your unilateral repeated deletion of this well-sourced, on-topic material on the basis of what is clearly a minority opinion about the appropriate size for a list lead is disruptive. FourViolas ( talk) 00:28, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Ojo del tigre, you wrote most of the material and have been WP:THANKing me for arguing for its inclusion. Would you be all right with moving the material to an Animal rights in music page? I don't see any serious problem; I'd say the lead and §History material could remain unchanged, and we could expand the article with sections on each tradition listed (folk; punk with subsections anarcho-, ska, vegan straightedge & hardline; rock). The only thing we'd have to pay attention to would be CFORK; we'd have to look around as we went, adding {{ main}} templates and possibly doing some selective merges.
If you'd rather keep it here, there is, of course, no policy or guideline that forbids having more than a few sentences of background, history, and context on a list article.
The MOS guideline on lead sections for stand-alone lists says that Stand-alone lists should always include a lead section just as other articles do
, meaning
WP:LEAD applies without modification, and that says a lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points
—recommending a
WP:LEADLENGTH of not more than four paragraphs, but still a useful and complete summary
. The policies Kingofaces43 has cited in favor of removal, CFORK and COATRACK, respectively can't possibly apply—LEADFORALIST even goes to the trouble to clarify that we should not make a fork between a topic that has a separate Wikipedia article and a list complementary to that topic
—and only apply given the premise that
animal rights in music should be treated separately from the "group or set" of animal rights-related songs, a premise that was rejected in the AfD. If they continue to remove material, we can pursue
WP:Dispute resolution, either by asking for additional opinions at the parent WikiProjects
WT:SONG and
WT:WPAR or by starting a
WP:RFC.
FourViolas (
talk)
13:04, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
combining material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources? I read it as mostly a list of separate verifiable facts organized in arbitrary order in the lead, and organized chronologically in §History. FourViolas ( talk) 01:51, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Animal rights has been a subject of both popular and independent music since the 1970s. [1] Associated with the environmentalist musical counterculture of the previous decade, animal rights songs of the 1970s were influenced by the passage of animal protection laws and the 1975 book Animal Liberation. [1] Paul McCartney has cited John Lennon's Bungalow Bill, released in 1968, as among the first animal rights songs. [2]
Popular themes include anti-whaling (prompted by the Save the Whales movement), [1] [3] [4] opposition to hunting, animal testing and vegetarianism. [5] Bullfighting has been a prominent theme in Spain and some Latin American countries; while folk and pop music have traditionally identified with bullfighting traditions, several ska, rock and punk groups have emerged which oppose them. [6]
Anarcho-punk and veganism have a long association dating back to the 1980s. [5] During this period, American hardcore punk and straight edge scenes became increasingly concerned with animal rights, spawning the vegan straight edge and hardline punk ideologies. [7] [8] An increase in Animal Liberation Front activism in the 1990s corresponded with the rise of vegan straight edge and hardline bands. [9] [10] The more peaceful Krishnacore subgenre, which also advocates vegetarianism and animal rights, developed around this time too. [11] The association between punk subculture and animal rights has continued in the 21st century, with vegan punk festivals including Fluff Fest in the Czech Republic and Verdurada in Brazil. [8] [12]
References
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notably the Spanish rock band Gabinete Caligariin sentence 5—they get several pages of discussion in the best source I've found on bullfighting and music
primarily through the vegetarian band Crassin sentence 6—many RS attest to the importance of Crass, including many places in Glasper. There's some basis for including Conflict as well, as I initially did along with Flux of Pink Indians and maybe The Subhumans, but Crass are frequently discussed as particularly important and as leaders in this activity.
initially centered on the bands Earth Crisis and Vegan Reich respectivelyin sentence 7. It's verified that these bands were crucial to the emergence of these subcultures, and the links provide more relevant information.
Should we at least begin a Wikipedia article on the other dimensions of being vegan which can be conceptually distinguished from animal advocacy:
IMO we would 'advance the cause' if we could begin developing such a resource. Other better informed 'persons of knowledge' in these specialized domains could (and likely would) discover these online resources (and begin to contribute to to their further development). MaynardClark ( talk) 02:33, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
Since so many of these songs are about animal advocacy and lament wrongs done to animals and don't do much to change or even discuss the legal status of animals, are they not really animal advocacy songs, or songs on behalf of suffering animals - sort of like the moaning and groaning that goes on in much folk music or when 'singing the blues'? How many of the melodic laments persuades audiences to apply to law school and push for an expansion of the legally and socially protected status of nonhumans? Can we 'measure' the expansion of social consciousness that is expected to result from these songs? Surely many people could sing Melanie Safka's 'I don't eat animals', but is anyone's influence measurable? MaynardClark ( talk) 13:06, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
List of songs about animal rights article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article was nominated for deletion on 26 July 2018. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This page was proposed for deletion by an editor in the past. |
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
The current article has a hidden note, stating: Before adding a song, please verify that it meets these requirements: 1.) It was made by artists with articles on the English Wikipedia. 2.) It has at least one paragraph or several lines referring to animal rights and not a vague mention. 3.) Do not add songs about vegetarianism or veganism that don't address animal rights directly (e.g. "Be Healthy" by Dead Prez or "Meat Free Monday" by Paul McCartney). 4.) If a song deals with experimentation on animals, give preference to the term "animal testing" instead of "vivisection" or others to maintain neutrality and consistency in the list. Otherwise, discuss it on the talk page and change them all.
I'm concerned that criterion 2 seems to require
WP:Original research, making it invalid. Could we replace it with something like Only add songs which a reliable source has described as being about one or more animal rights issues, i.e. questions about how we should treat non-human animals
? From my spot checks, the references provided for the current list all satisfy this criterion, and it would address the concern raised at the AfD discussion that this list has vague selection criteria.
FourViolas (
talk)
18:09, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
stand-alone lists should always include a lead section just as other articles do, and the full version of the lead does just that, giving a highly abbreviated overview of the importance and historical trends of animal rights-related songs. It's well-sourced (mostly to academic publications) and on-topic, and your editorial preference for hosting it at a non-existent page doesn't justify its removal. FourViolas ( talk) 12:45, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
Before adding a song, please verify that [...] It has at least one paragraph or several lines referring to animal rights and not a vague mention.This is what I thought would require OR in most cases, and wanted to replace with a criterion requiring a RS for the fact that the song is AR-related. The "not just a passing mention" criterion you're using would add to the revised criterion:
Before adding a song, please verify that [...] a reliable source has described it as being about one or more animal rights issues, and the source includes at least one paragraph or several lines referring to the song's connection to animal rights and not a passing mention.FourViolas ( talk) 13:02, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
Before adding a song, please verify that [...] a reliable source has described it as being about one or more animal rights issues with more than passing mention of the song.
make clear what the list includesand b) is "essentially" a WP:CFORK, but a) LEADFORALIST implies that this is the minimum function a list lead must serve, not the maximum allowed, and b) it can't possibly be a content fork of music and animal rights if that article doesn't exist—at most, you could argue that that page should be created and this material moved there. FourViolas ( talk) 16:59, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
Again, it can't possibly be any kind of fork if the material it's supposedly duplicating doesn't exist elsewhere!
As for how much material is appropriate for the intro to a list on WP, look through a random consecutive five articles of Category:Featured lists:
Now which do those more closely resemble: your one-paragraph, 102-word intro which barely mention music or musicians at all, or our five-paragraph, 399-word overview of important themes, historical developments, and particularly notable bands in this topic?
At this point my argument is not WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS; it's the overwhelming consensus of the Wikipedia community that a well-written list article's intro should provide many paragraph's worth of background, discussion, and analysis. Your unilateral repeated deletion of this well-sourced, on-topic material on the basis of what is clearly a minority opinion about the appropriate size for a list lead is disruptive. FourViolas ( talk) 00:28, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Ojo del tigre, you wrote most of the material and have been WP:THANKing me for arguing for its inclusion. Would you be all right with moving the material to an Animal rights in music page? I don't see any serious problem; I'd say the lead and §History material could remain unchanged, and we could expand the article with sections on each tradition listed (folk; punk with subsections anarcho-, ska, vegan straightedge & hardline; rock). The only thing we'd have to pay attention to would be CFORK; we'd have to look around as we went, adding {{ main}} templates and possibly doing some selective merges.
If you'd rather keep it here, there is, of course, no policy or guideline that forbids having more than a few sentences of background, history, and context on a list article.
The MOS guideline on lead sections for stand-alone lists says that Stand-alone lists should always include a lead section just as other articles do
, meaning
WP:LEAD applies without modification, and that says a lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points
—recommending a
WP:LEADLENGTH of not more than four paragraphs, but still a useful and complete summary
. The policies Kingofaces43 has cited in favor of removal, CFORK and COATRACK, respectively can't possibly apply—LEADFORALIST even goes to the trouble to clarify that we should not make a fork between a topic that has a separate Wikipedia article and a list complementary to that topic
—and only apply given the premise that
animal rights in music should be treated separately from the "group or set" of animal rights-related songs, a premise that was rejected in the AfD. If they continue to remove material, we can pursue
WP:Dispute resolution, either by asking for additional opinions at the parent WikiProjects
WT:SONG and
WT:WPAR or by starting a
WP:RFC.
FourViolas (
talk)
13:04, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
combining material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources? I read it as mostly a list of separate verifiable facts organized in arbitrary order in the lead, and organized chronologically in §History. FourViolas ( talk) 01:51, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Animal rights has been a subject of both popular and independent music since the 1970s. [1] Associated with the environmentalist musical counterculture of the previous decade, animal rights songs of the 1970s were influenced by the passage of animal protection laws and the 1975 book Animal Liberation. [1] Paul McCartney has cited John Lennon's Bungalow Bill, released in 1968, as among the first animal rights songs. [2]
Popular themes include anti-whaling (prompted by the Save the Whales movement), [1] [3] [4] opposition to hunting, animal testing and vegetarianism. [5] Bullfighting has been a prominent theme in Spain and some Latin American countries; while folk and pop music have traditionally identified with bullfighting traditions, several ska, rock and punk groups have emerged which oppose them. [6]
Anarcho-punk and veganism have a long association dating back to the 1980s. [5] During this period, American hardcore punk and straight edge scenes became increasingly concerned with animal rights, spawning the vegan straight edge and hardline punk ideologies. [7] [8] An increase in Animal Liberation Front activism in the 1990s corresponded with the rise of vegan straight edge and hardline bands. [9] [10] The more peaceful Krishnacore subgenre, which also advocates vegetarianism and animal rights, developed around this time too. [11] The association between punk subculture and animal rights has continued in the 21st century, with vegan punk festivals including Fluff Fest in the Czech Republic and Verdurada in Brazil. [8] [12]
References
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notably the Spanish rock band Gabinete Caligariin sentence 5—they get several pages of discussion in the best source I've found on bullfighting and music
primarily through the vegetarian band Crassin sentence 6—many RS attest to the importance of Crass, including many places in Glasper. There's some basis for including Conflict as well, as I initially did along with Flux of Pink Indians and maybe The Subhumans, but Crass are frequently discussed as particularly important and as leaders in this activity.
initially centered on the bands Earth Crisis and Vegan Reich respectivelyin sentence 7. It's verified that these bands were crucial to the emergence of these subcultures, and the links provide more relevant information.
Should we at least begin a Wikipedia article on the other dimensions of being vegan which can be conceptually distinguished from animal advocacy:
IMO we would 'advance the cause' if we could begin developing such a resource. Other better informed 'persons of knowledge' in these specialized domains could (and likely would) discover these online resources (and begin to contribute to to their further development). MaynardClark ( talk) 02:33, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
Since so many of these songs are about animal advocacy and lament wrongs done to animals and don't do much to change or even discuss the legal status of animals, are they not really animal advocacy songs, or songs on behalf of suffering animals - sort of like the moaning and groaning that goes on in much folk music or when 'singing the blues'? How many of the melodic laments persuades audiences to apply to law school and push for an expansion of the legally and socially protected status of nonhumans? Can we 'measure' the expansion of social consciousness that is expected to result from these songs? Surely many people could sing Melanie Safka's 'I don't eat animals', but is anyone's influence measurable? MaynardClark ( talk) 13:06, 14 September 2020 (UTC)