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The entry for the sinking of the Swedish cargo ship Rudolf is listed under 3 December as sunk in the Firth of Tay (56°15′N 1°25′W), with three references.

• 1) Naval-History.Net gives the date as 2 Dec and the location as "off Dundee in the Firth of Tay in 56‑15N, 01‑25W"
• 2) Wrecksite also opts for 2 Dec but hides the co-ordinates from public view; but if the small chartlet is anything to go by it is further south and further east than (1)(also they cannot decide whether the ship was inward in ballast from Gothenburg, or outward with coal from West Hartlepool for Malmo)
• 3) U-boat.net has 00.13hrs on 3 Dec, in 56°15'N, 1°25'W "about 40 miles east of May Island" (which is internally coherant); West Hartlepool for Malmo, coal, but zone for the time not stated

other sources:

• 4) Bulletin of International News, Volume 16, Issues 19–26, page 1380 has 3 Dec, by a mine "near the Firth of Tay ... carrying coal to Sweden"
• 5) Lloyd's Register Casualty Returns 1939 gives no detail

Does anyone have to hand Lloyd's War Losses, WW2, which I would consider a reliable source, or Hocking's Dictionary of Disasters at Sea?

What is certainly clear is that this was not "in the Firth of Tay" or anywhere near it. I suspect that the date discrepancy may be due to use of different time-zones, but with only one source venturing a non-specific zone it is difficult to be sure. Davidships ( talk) 19:52, 30 October 2021 (UTC) reply

Lloyds have the same co-ords as we do 56°15'N, 1°25'W but without geographical description, date 2 Dec, cargo coal, route Hartlepool for Malmo, cause mine, 9 killed Lyndaship ( talk) 20:07, 30 October 2021 (UTC) reply

Thanks, Lyndaship. I think that we can be confident about the position of loss, and since it describes that position in the most straightforward way, I'll go for "about 40 miles east of May Island"

Reading, in the meantime, press coverage of the sinking, initial reports of cause were split between "mine" and "mine or torpedo"; but as the days went on, particularly the arrival in port of the rescued crew, it veered more towards "torpedo". And later scholarship seems to be unanimous that it was U-56, and will have had the benefit of German sources. But I am seeking additional published sources for that. Davidships ( talk) 00:47, 31 October 2021 (UTC) reply

Agree with you on all points Lyndaship ( talk) 06:31, 31 October 2021 (UTC) reply

This Finnish ship was listed twice, 12th and 28th December: I cross-checked history of Winter War, and no Finnish ship was sunk in Dec 12th (much less with same name as later incident). Correct date is actually December 29th, see https://beta.hylyt.net/item/wilpas-3258/. Also it was sunk by gunfire after a chase, rather than torpedoed. Submarine was also listed wrong in Dec 12 entry. -- Mikoyan21 ( talk) 08:49, 7 February 2024 (UTC) reply