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![]() | On 2 April 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to List of red-flagged Formula One Grands Prix. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
The following races (at least) are missing from the list: 01 German, 98 Belgian, 98 French, 98 Canadian, 96 Australian, 95 Monaco, 95 Argentine, 90 Italian, 90 Belgian, 89 French, 87 Portuguese, 87 Austrian, 82 Canadian, 80 Canadian, 76 German, 76 British, 73 British.
DH85868993 (
talk)
00:55, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Couple of thoughts I would like others views on before going ahead with.
1)I think we need to mention 75% race distance being completed as a reason for most races not being restarted and also where a race is restarted, the method of restarting/resuming needs mentioning (Fresh start <2 lap / Average time / Straight continuation)
2)I suggest where more than three drivers are involved in accidents causing the red flag, we state the number of drivers rather than list all of them.
3)I don't think the constructor is of relevance, so suggest it's omitted. AlexJ ( talk) 23:44, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
The 1981 Belgian GP was red flagged twice: after the start accident involving Patrese and Stohr, then restarted, and at the end, because of the rain. 201.80.168.223 ( talk) 02:43, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Shouldn't this list be titled List of red-flagged Formula One Grand Prix or Grands Prix? Especially since races articles states Grand Prix not race, this list should follow that convention. Was going to move the page myself, but wanted to see if there was any reason it is titled this way. NapHit ( talk) 20:37, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Would like to get my word out on the new table. In my opinion, it's absolutely dreadful. It's hard to see where races are compared to the previous one, which had races in the same season sorted into a section. It also contained more information, such as who was involved in the accident, while this one states who won the race which is completely unnecessary information unless the race was abandoned.
I'm going to start with adding back the information that was on the previous article. When I have time, I may continue more extensive work on it.
-- Ithinkilostmyheadache ( talk) 20:05, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
Five people have reviewed the list at FLC no one has said a column for seasons needs to be added. Its redundant because just listing the Grand Prix provides the year. Colspans are to be avoided per MOS:DTT, as for users reading wikipedia on screen readers they make reading the table difficult. I'm not rudely dismissing your criticism at all, but its a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT, as you are the only person that has raised these issues. You also stated its a fact the table is worse than the previous one and that it is "absolutely dreadful". So Its a bit rich to ask me not to be rude, when you have outright criticised the new format. I have taken it onboard, the fact is, five other people at the FLC are in favour of the table being the way it is, that is a consensus. This is how wikipedia works, not one person deciding their way is right and ignoring guidelines. NapHit ( talk) 13:03, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
I think the current legend for the "race restarted" column is inaccurate in respect to the races it describes. Currently a considerable number of races are labelled "restarted over a shorted distance" even though the originally scheduled distance for those races was effectively completed and classified and those races were merely resumed from the point at which they were stopped. This is in contradiction with races which were stopped and where the scheduled distance/number of laps was effectively shortened from what was originally scheduled, like e.g. in the case of the 1978 Italian Grand Prix. Tvx1 ( talk) 13:10, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
Concerning the 2014 Japanese GP the lap on which the red flag was shown was 46 with the results taken from lap 44. This would make it consistent with every suspended race since Canada 1997 on this list. Also the article for the 1991 Australian GP mentions the the red flag was shown on lap 17, so shouldn't that be reflected here as well? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.9.226.180 ( talk) 11:41, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
Also the 1994 Japanese GP was stopped on lap 15 not 13, but was restarted with results as of lap 13.
There doesn't seem to be consistency about who is listed here? Is it just people who did not restart AND were involved in the accident, or everyone who had retired previously as well?
It's unclear, because some of the races, such as 1973 British Grand Prix, list all people who didn't restart, but other races, like 2013 Monaco Grand Prix or 2011 Monaco Grand Prix only list those involved in the red flag incident who did not restart.
Which standard should be used? Joseph2302 ( talk) 01:15, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
The official restart is counted from the moment drivers are on the grid, not from the moment they leave the pit lane. Russell (although he left the pit lane) was not on the grid, the same situation that happened to Ocon who was not on the grid during the restart of the 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix. Should we put Max Verstappen (crash) and George Russell (gearbox)? Island92 ( talk) 06:48, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
Totally agree, especially after what happened yesterday. So far it has turned out to be a sort of bewilderment. However, it was a standing start: drivers came to the grid and stopped waiting for the five red lights. Island92 ( talk) 08:11, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
Needless to say, that is decided by Michael Masi. In both cases, drivers must leave the pit lane before because they must enter into the pit when the race is red flagged. That point can be considered the moment the restart worths, either for rolling or standing start. In addition, there is displayed a countdown by FOM before restarting the race (when drivers are in the pit lane, as yesterday). Island92 ( talk) 08:45, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
The restart has to be considered when they leave the pit lane, as that counts as a lap...? Spa-Franks ( talk) 18:34, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
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A lot of these are superfluous and only appear on more modern races. Bahrain 20, Imola 21, Azerbaijan 21 - these are all disputable anyway as to why they were stopped. Indeed, Masi is cited on AZE 21 in the race page itself as saying he stopped it mainly because he didn't want it to end behind the safety car. Spa-Franks ( talk) 18:33, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Hey guys! Question regarding today's race. Technically, I'm pretty sure the first red flag was after the (second) formation lap, not on lap 1 - lap 1 was after the long delay. So the article should say that the lap concerned was the formation lap. Let me know what you think! Miki.krok ( talk) 18:54, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
If the regulations say that a red-flag is also used to indicate an aborted start procedure, then the article needs to be updated to reflect this (which would also be the basis for our disagreement).
If this is what the regulations say, I agree with you, and have
WP:BOLDly changed the article.
SSSB (
talk)
08:22, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
...the results will be taken at the end of the penultimate lap before the lap during which the signal to suspend the race was given. If they completed three two laps behind the safety car from the 18:17 start, the "signal to suspend the race" was given on the third lap. Then the "lap before the lap during which the signal to suspend the race was given" would be lap 2, so the "penultimate lap before the lap during which the signal to suspend the race was given" would be the end of the first lap, the end of the lap they started at 18:17 local time, meaning they took the results at the end of that lap. Of course, this is just WP:OR.
The regulations are the same as they were in 2019. I'm sorry, but I know I'm right on this one. The official start of the race was 18:17 CEST, as confirmed on the broadcast by Masi, Brundle, Davidson, and Croft. Spa-Franks ( talk) 19:03, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
confirmed on the broadcast by Masi, Brundle, Davidson, and Croft.- WP:PROVEIT.
The safety car simply doesn't count towards laps 1-5, it removed laps 40-44.
- not always the case. When races are started behind the safety car... as was done here...
2016 Brazilian Grand Prix also springs to mind.
I know I'm right on this one.
- that's not good enough.
The truth is that the FIA do not publish the time at which the first lap was counted, so we may never know for sure, we may have to rely on the analysis of secondary sources for this.
SSSB (
talk)
22:10, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
2016 Brazilian Grand Prix also springs to mind- this is irrelevant owing to the 2017 rule changes pertaining to safety car starts. Not sure how to "prove it" re Sky's broadcast unless you're asking for a timestamp in the broadcast. Spa-Franks ( talk) 23:40, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
I looked at some of the recent back and forth in the edit history about this race, and I suspect this is going to want conversation. My thoughts, anyway, and why this deserves the 'Yellow S':
The way F1 races used to be run, I realize that the meaning of "restarted" and "resumed" would be different; sometimes the race director would scrap the first lap or two of a race that has been started and say "do it over from lap 1", that a rolling restart meant a completely different "kind" of "resumption", and that there WAS no timer that artificially imposed the length of time (and thus the distance) that a race could be run in. That meant that a "Yellow S" would only be seen in cases like weather or darkness ending the race early...but this is the system we have today. The race length timer can also cut it short.
Skybunny ( talk) 16:17, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
If a red flag happens in a sprint, will it be on the list or not? As far as I understand, only races are zisted [sic - listed], not sprints. 212.164.204.57 ( talk) 09:15, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus is that "races" better reflects the scope of the list than "Grands Prix". ( closed by non-admin page mover) Material Works (contribs) 18:21, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
List of red-flagged Formula One races → List of red-flagged Formula One Grands Prix – Consistency with other F1 lists (eg- List of Formula One Grands Prix, List of Formula One Grand Prix winners and List of Formula One Grand Prix wins by Lewis Hamilton). I read through the previous discussions above which have cited the 1950 Indianapolis 500 as a reason for not moving the page as it was not a Grand Prix, however this list appears to be the exception and not the rule as two of three examples I've given above include that race (and other Indy 500s) alongside an explanatory note. I would suggest that a similar note be added if consensus is to move. Stevie fae Scotland ( talk) 08:56, 2 April 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Material Works ping me! 12:10, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
Would I expect to see this person or thing on a list of X?Would most readers expect to see what is listed in this article (or indeed any of the ones that have been mentioned in this discussion) on a list of Formula One Grands Prix (of specific criteria) or a list of Formula One races (of specific criteria)? Honestly, I think they would expect it regardless which was used so the only question really is whether we be consistent or not. Stevie fae Scotland ( talk) 15:42, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
Will we continue to use lap 9 and 56 for red flags, instead of lap 8 and 55 in the 2023 Australian Grand Prix? On the YouTube review from the F1 or SkySports channel, it is clearly visible that the red flags were already on laps 8 and 55, why is 9 and 56 indicated? --- 212.164.39.123 ( talk) 13:14, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
Someone talks about consistency, but someone removed the Indy 500 from the list? These races are present in other lists (i.e. the list of fatalities in f1 and List of Formula One Grand Prix winners) and she should be on this list. Yes, it didn't use f1 rules and f1 cars, most f1 drivers weren't there, but it was part of the championship, points were awarded for it (I'm not happy myself that the Indy 500 is included here, but it was part of the championship for ten years). It may sound rude, but we are rewriting the history of F1 by removing the Indy 500 from the list. 212.164.39.123 ( talk) 19:35, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
By the way, 1950 indy 500, as I understand it, was included in it all the time of the existence of this article and now is not? This is also present in the template about f1 racing. 212.164.39.123 ( talk) 19:43, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
@ Island92 - we don't need to add a footnote for how every race is restarted. I agree with standing starts needing a note since the race is technically resumed with a quasi-formation lap (or possibly an additional column or explanation as this is starting to look messy). Europe 2007, Korea 2010, Canada 2011, Malaysia 2012, Japan 2014, and Brazil 2016 all had multiple laps under the safety car and then a rolling restart, just as Zandvoort 2021. Spa-Franks ( talk) 22:16, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
![]() | List of red-flagged Formula One races is a featured list, which means it has been identified as one of the best lists produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured list on December 21, 2015. | |||||||||
|
![]() | This article is rated FL-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | On 2 April 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to List of red-flagged Formula One Grands Prix. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
The following races (at least) are missing from the list: 01 German, 98 Belgian, 98 French, 98 Canadian, 96 Australian, 95 Monaco, 95 Argentine, 90 Italian, 90 Belgian, 89 French, 87 Portuguese, 87 Austrian, 82 Canadian, 80 Canadian, 76 German, 76 British, 73 British.
DH85868993 (
talk)
00:55, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Couple of thoughts I would like others views on before going ahead with.
1)I think we need to mention 75% race distance being completed as a reason for most races not being restarted and also where a race is restarted, the method of restarting/resuming needs mentioning (Fresh start <2 lap / Average time / Straight continuation)
2)I suggest where more than three drivers are involved in accidents causing the red flag, we state the number of drivers rather than list all of them.
3)I don't think the constructor is of relevance, so suggest it's omitted. AlexJ ( talk) 23:44, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
The 1981 Belgian GP was red flagged twice: after the start accident involving Patrese and Stohr, then restarted, and at the end, because of the rain. 201.80.168.223 ( talk) 02:43, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Shouldn't this list be titled List of red-flagged Formula One Grand Prix or Grands Prix? Especially since races articles states Grand Prix not race, this list should follow that convention. Was going to move the page myself, but wanted to see if there was any reason it is titled this way. NapHit ( talk) 20:37, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Would like to get my word out on the new table. In my opinion, it's absolutely dreadful. It's hard to see where races are compared to the previous one, which had races in the same season sorted into a section. It also contained more information, such as who was involved in the accident, while this one states who won the race which is completely unnecessary information unless the race was abandoned.
I'm going to start with adding back the information that was on the previous article. When I have time, I may continue more extensive work on it.
-- Ithinkilostmyheadache ( talk) 20:05, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
Five people have reviewed the list at FLC no one has said a column for seasons needs to be added. Its redundant because just listing the Grand Prix provides the year. Colspans are to be avoided per MOS:DTT, as for users reading wikipedia on screen readers they make reading the table difficult. I'm not rudely dismissing your criticism at all, but its a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT, as you are the only person that has raised these issues. You also stated its a fact the table is worse than the previous one and that it is "absolutely dreadful". So Its a bit rich to ask me not to be rude, when you have outright criticised the new format. I have taken it onboard, the fact is, five other people at the FLC are in favour of the table being the way it is, that is a consensus. This is how wikipedia works, not one person deciding their way is right and ignoring guidelines. NapHit ( talk) 13:03, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
I think the current legend for the "race restarted" column is inaccurate in respect to the races it describes. Currently a considerable number of races are labelled "restarted over a shorted distance" even though the originally scheduled distance for those races was effectively completed and classified and those races were merely resumed from the point at which they were stopped. This is in contradiction with races which were stopped and where the scheduled distance/number of laps was effectively shortened from what was originally scheduled, like e.g. in the case of the 1978 Italian Grand Prix. Tvx1 ( talk) 13:10, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
Concerning the 2014 Japanese GP the lap on which the red flag was shown was 46 with the results taken from lap 44. This would make it consistent with every suspended race since Canada 1997 on this list. Also the article for the 1991 Australian GP mentions the the red flag was shown on lap 17, so shouldn't that be reflected here as well? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.9.226.180 ( talk) 11:41, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
Also the 1994 Japanese GP was stopped on lap 15 not 13, but was restarted with results as of lap 13.
There doesn't seem to be consistency about who is listed here? Is it just people who did not restart AND were involved in the accident, or everyone who had retired previously as well?
It's unclear, because some of the races, such as 1973 British Grand Prix, list all people who didn't restart, but other races, like 2013 Monaco Grand Prix or 2011 Monaco Grand Prix only list those involved in the red flag incident who did not restart.
Which standard should be used? Joseph2302 ( talk) 01:15, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
The official restart is counted from the moment drivers are on the grid, not from the moment they leave the pit lane. Russell (although he left the pit lane) was not on the grid, the same situation that happened to Ocon who was not on the grid during the restart of the 2020 Tuscan Grand Prix. Should we put Max Verstappen (crash) and George Russell (gearbox)? Island92 ( talk) 06:48, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
Totally agree, especially after what happened yesterday. So far it has turned out to be a sort of bewilderment. However, it was a standing start: drivers came to the grid and stopped waiting for the five red lights. Island92 ( talk) 08:11, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
Needless to say, that is decided by Michael Masi. In both cases, drivers must leave the pit lane before because they must enter into the pit when the race is red flagged. That point can be considered the moment the restart worths, either for rolling or standing start. In addition, there is displayed a countdown by FOM before restarting the race (when drivers are in the pit lane, as yesterday). Island92 ( talk) 08:45, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
The restart has to be considered when they leave the pit lane, as that counts as a lap...? Spa-Franks ( talk) 18:34, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on List of red-flagged Formula One races. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This message was posted before February 2018.
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:24, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
A lot of these are superfluous and only appear on more modern races. Bahrain 20, Imola 21, Azerbaijan 21 - these are all disputable anyway as to why they were stopped. Indeed, Masi is cited on AZE 21 in the race page itself as saying he stopped it mainly because he didn't want it to end behind the safety car. Spa-Franks ( talk) 18:33, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Hey guys! Question regarding today's race. Technically, I'm pretty sure the first red flag was after the (second) formation lap, not on lap 1 - lap 1 was after the long delay. So the article should say that the lap concerned was the formation lap. Let me know what you think! Miki.krok ( talk) 18:54, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
If the regulations say that a red-flag is also used to indicate an aborted start procedure, then the article needs to be updated to reflect this (which would also be the basis for our disagreement).
If this is what the regulations say, I agree with you, and have
WP:BOLDly changed the article.
SSSB (
talk)
08:22, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
...the results will be taken at the end of the penultimate lap before the lap during which the signal to suspend the race was given. If they completed three two laps behind the safety car from the 18:17 start, the "signal to suspend the race" was given on the third lap. Then the "lap before the lap during which the signal to suspend the race was given" would be lap 2, so the "penultimate lap before the lap during which the signal to suspend the race was given" would be the end of the first lap, the end of the lap they started at 18:17 local time, meaning they took the results at the end of that lap. Of course, this is just WP:OR.
The regulations are the same as they were in 2019. I'm sorry, but I know I'm right on this one. The official start of the race was 18:17 CEST, as confirmed on the broadcast by Masi, Brundle, Davidson, and Croft. Spa-Franks ( talk) 19:03, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
confirmed on the broadcast by Masi, Brundle, Davidson, and Croft.- WP:PROVEIT.
The safety car simply doesn't count towards laps 1-5, it removed laps 40-44.
- not always the case. When races are started behind the safety car... as was done here...
2016 Brazilian Grand Prix also springs to mind.
I know I'm right on this one.
- that's not good enough.
The truth is that the FIA do not publish the time at which the first lap was counted, so we may never know for sure, we may have to rely on the analysis of secondary sources for this.
SSSB (
talk)
22:10, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
2016 Brazilian Grand Prix also springs to mind- this is irrelevant owing to the 2017 rule changes pertaining to safety car starts. Not sure how to "prove it" re Sky's broadcast unless you're asking for a timestamp in the broadcast. Spa-Franks ( talk) 23:40, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
I looked at some of the recent back and forth in the edit history about this race, and I suspect this is going to want conversation. My thoughts, anyway, and why this deserves the 'Yellow S':
The way F1 races used to be run, I realize that the meaning of "restarted" and "resumed" would be different; sometimes the race director would scrap the first lap or two of a race that has been started and say "do it over from lap 1", that a rolling restart meant a completely different "kind" of "resumption", and that there WAS no timer that artificially imposed the length of time (and thus the distance) that a race could be run in. That meant that a "Yellow S" would only be seen in cases like weather or darkness ending the race early...but this is the system we have today. The race length timer can also cut it short.
Skybunny ( talk) 16:17, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
If a red flag happens in a sprint, will it be on the list or not? As far as I understand, only races are zisted [sic - listed], not sprints. 212.164.204.57 ( talk) 09:15, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus is that "races" better reflects the scope of the list than "Grands Prix". ( closed by non-admin page mover) Material Works (contribs) 18:21, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
List of red-flagged Formula One races → List of red-flagged Formula One Grands Prix – Consistency with other F1 lists (eg- List of Formula One Grands Prix, List of Formula One Grand Prix winners and List of Formula One Grand Prix wins by Lewis Hamilton). I read through the previous discussions above which have cited the 1950 Indianapolis 500 as a reason for not moving the page as it was not a Grand Prix, however this list appears to be the exception and not the rule as two of three examples I've given above include that race (and other Indy 500s) alongside an explanatory note. I would suggest that a similar note be added if consensus is to move. Stevie fae Scotland ( talk) 08:56, 2 April 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Material Works ping me! 12:10, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
Would I expect to see this person or thing on a list of X?Would most readers expect to see what is listed in this article (or indeed any of the ones that have been mentioned in this discussion) on a list of Formula One Grands Prix (of specific criteria) or a list of Formula One races (of specific criteria)? Honestly, I think they would expect it regardless which was used so the only question really is whether we be consistent or not. Stevie fae Scotland ( talk) 15:42, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
Will we continue to use lap 9 and 56 for red flags, instead of lap 8 and 55 in the 2023 Australian Grand Prix? On the YouTube review from the F1 or SkySports channel, it is clearly visible that the red flags were already on laps 8 and 55, why is 9 and 56 indicated? --- 212.164.39.123 ( talk) 13:14, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
Someone talks about consistency, but someone removed the Indy 500 from the list? These races are present in other lists (i.e. the list of fatalities in f1 and List of Formula One Grand Prix winners) and she should be on this list. Yes, it didn't use f1 rules and f1 cars, most f1 drivers weren't there, but it was part of the championship, points were awarded for it (I'm not happy myself that the Indy 500 is included here, but it was part of the championship for ten years). It may sound rude, but we are rewriting the history of F1 by removing the Indy 500 from the list. 212.164.39.123 ( talk) 19:35, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
By the way, 1950 indy 500, as I understand it, was included in it all the time of the existence of this article and now is not? This is also present in the template about f1 racing. 212.164.39.123 ( talk) 19:43, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
@ Island92 - we don't need to add a footnote for how every race is restarted. I agree with standing starts needing a note since the race is technically resumed with a quasi-formation lap (or possibly an additional column or explanation as this is starting to look messy). Europe 2007, Korea 2010, Canada 2011, Malaysia 2012, Japan 2014, and Brazil 2016 all had multiple laps under the safety car and then a rolling restart, just as Zandvoort 2021. Spa-Franks ( talk) 22:16, 5 November 2023 (UTC)